Piers Morgan Uncensored - "Flaming HYPOCRITE!" Linehan Arrest For Anti-Trans Posts & Free Speech Feat. Riley Gaines

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

The state of free speech in the UK is sparking global debate - especially in the United States. Joe Rogan’s guests have raised alarms over arrests for social media posts, and U.S. Vice President JD Vance has warned Britain is “heading down a dark path.” That debate exploded this week after comedy writer Graham Linehan, co-creator of Father Ted, was arrested at Heathrow by armed police over three posts about trans women. The government says police should focus on “streets not tweets,” while the Met insists only lawmakers can change the rules. What’s striking is how many of Linehan’s critics have defended his right to speak, signalling a possible shift in attitudes on the trans debate. Even Malcolm Gladwell admits he felt pressured into his earlier views. So - are we now at a watershed moment in this generation-defining issue of free speech, identity, and censorship? Piers Morgan is joined by Host of Gaines For Girls, Riley Gaines, YouTube commentator Blaire White, founder of Gender GP Helen Webberley, author and activist Laurie Penny and author and journalist Lionel Shriver. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. Pique: Get 20% off your order plus a FREE frother & glass beaker with this exclusive link: https://piquelife.com/PIERS Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What worries me is that there seems to be a two-tier system of free speech where it's free speech for people who attack transgender people and, like, set themselves up as victims. The Graham Lennahan story really makes me nervous on my own account. I had a completely selfish reaction to that story because I'm worried that given what I have put into print, I could be arrested. In the wake of Graham Lennahan's arrest, you posted this. Let this be a sage warrant. to those who think it's okay to have views of the hateful towards trans people. Your time is coming. And you have some emojis, a clock, an ambulance and a coughing.

If you don't mind me saying, I think you're a flaming hypocrite because you are clearly inciting violence. And in fact, that's a clear demonstrative death threat against Graham and then. The state of free speech in the UK has become a matter of global debate, nowhere more so than in the United States. Many guests of Joe Rogan have highlighted the high number of, of arrest for posts on social media, for example. And Vice President J.D. Vance has directly admonished the British government for, quote,

heading down a dark path. The arrest of award-winning comedy writer Graham Linehan by armed police at Heathrow this week has only poured fuel onto that fire, making headlines across the world. Well, Linneham was arrested on suspicion of quotes inciting violence, close quotes, with three ex-posts about trans women back in April. The government says police should focus on streets, not tweet. London's met police, that it's a government's job to change the law.

In fact, there's so many of Lennon's critics have rushed to his defense, it's probably more evidence of the profound shift in attitudes on the trans issue and its previously untouchable status. In the US, the renowned public intellectual and author Malcolm Gladwell

has renounced his own opinions on this issue and says he felt pressurized into holding them in the first place. If we did a replay of that exact panel at the Sloan Conference, this coming March, it runs in exactly the opposite direction. And it would be, I suspect, near unanimity in the room that trans athletes have no place in the female category. I don't think there's any question.

I just think it was a strange, I mean, I felt, I mean, I was, the reason I'm ashamed of my performance of that panel, because I share your position 100% and I was count. The idea of saying anything on this issue, I was, I believe in retrospect, in a dishonest way, I was objective in a dishonest way. So have we now reached a watershed moment in misgeneration defining toxic issue or should we brace for a backlash

from those who want to police our pronouns and our speech? Here's a debate all this, is Riley, Gaines. the host of Gaines for Girls and a fierce campaigner for women's rights in sport, Dr. Helen Weberley, an expert and advocate in transgender health care, author and journalist Laurie Penny, YouTube commentator Blair White, and the award-winning author and journalist Lionel Shriver. Well, welcome to all of you.

Lionel, let me start with you, because you've gone on a similar kind of journey to Malcolm Gladwell, in the sense that you have regrets yourself. You wrote on The Spectator in May, I'm not proud of having kept my own counsel in print for three years, but this radical fad emerged inexplicably in tandem with the stern message that a single discouraging word would end your career. I delayed writing about this topic because I was cowardly

and regarding my self-interest smart. And that tallies, Alana, was so many high-profile women that I know, journalists, actresses and others, who simply were not prepared to put their head over the parapet in the way that, for example, Riley was or I was, but are now coming around to realizing that that was in its way, I guess, a form of moral cowardies, albeit one based on a reality, that there was a mob coming with its pitchforks. Yes, I should clarify that I first started sticking my neck out on the

trans issue in 2016, and that made me unusual. I'm still not proud of not having written about the issue for a solid three years when it was all over the news. And at the same time, yes, we all got the message that if you said anything negative about this exploding phenomenon, your career was over. Yeah. And I'm a little, I'm fascinated, actually, how that was successfully communicated because it wasn't explicit. It was like in the tiny print at the bottom of the contract. But it wasn't a joke.

This was a correct perception. And I did take my career in my hands when I wrote a piece for prospect arguing that the whole business of a gender spectrum was based on gender stereotypes. And saying that if I do not believe that the soul has a sex, that your self is sexed. And it was aimed at the transgender. movement. And since then, you know, I have published any number of columns that have become

more candid about my real views. And therefore, the Graham Lenehan story really makes me nervous on my own account. I had a completely selfish reaction to that story. Because I'm worried that given what I have put into print, I could be arrested the next time I come. Well, that's the fascinating thing, because I'm... Look, I don't find everything Graham Lennonohen says that funny. I can see some of it's a bit sharp. A lot of my favorite comedians are a bit sharp with their humor. He is a comedian.

He wrote, founded one of the great comedies in British television history. So let me bring Laurie in here. Whatever you think of Graham Linnahen, the idea that he was met by five armed police in the UK at one of our airports and arrested over three. clearly comedic intended jokes, albeit, I guess, moderately offensive, if you wanted to be offended,

but they're jokes that he put on social media that he is arrested by five-armed police. Surely that sends a shutter down your spine, doesn't it? Okay. I'm confused because what Linnahann wrote was he directly encouraged people reading his Twitter feed to attack transgender women. Well, let me read it. So those who haven't seen it, we'll know what you're talking about.

He said, if a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he's committing a violent, abusive act, make a scene, call the cops, and if all else fails, punch him in the balls. That is obviously intended to be a comedic mockery. Is it? Can you explain? Well, yeah. What's funny about it? Well, punch him in the balls is a joke.

Is that punch... Because the point he's making is that this person is a biological male. who is in a women's space, and that actually, to many women, is a lot more offensive and threatening than a joke on Twitter. I'm sorry, I'm still failing to see where the joke is, though I think this is...

Oh, if we're saying this is a joke and not, you know, an incitement to violence, I'm just not sure why it's funny. It's, I mean, one of your... Okay, but here's my point. You may not find it funny, but the reality is, is that an arrestable offence to you?

Is that something you feel comfortable that five armed police officers go and meet Gremlin off a plane at a London airport and arrest him. Well, the law doesn't exist to police what does and does not make you or me comfortable. I'm asking you personally, do you feel comfortable with that?

Do I feel comfortable with people with people going onto planes and arresting people for things they put in the public domain? Unless that person has committed a crime... Yeah. No, no, I don't think that's good at all. No, no, excuse me.

But that's important. So you don't agree with what happened? That doesn't mean, I am a supporter of what Graham Linnon has to say. Nor does it mean. As Winston Churchill, listen, Laurie, as Winston Churchill said, you know, the whole point of free speech, it's not about you agreeing with stuff that you agree with

or accepting that. It's about actually allowing people to say offensive things and respecting their right to say them. I thought the whole point of free speech was for everybody to be able to express themselves freely not to say offensive things. I mean, I'm confused if all we're doing, free speech surely has to mean more.

than just the right of bigots to say whatever they want and nobody to be able to say anything. How do you police it then? How do I police freedom of speech? Well, personally, I, in my personal life, how do I police? How would you propose we police it then, if you think there should be limits? Look, it's... What limit do you think there should be on inciting violence?

I don't think in incited violence. He was making a joke about the fact that trans women are biological men and therefore have male genitalia. May I speak? And a lot of women, a lot of women, a lot of women, by the way, find that really offensive and wrong that they should be allowed in women's spaces.

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One is whether or not you think that Graham Linnahehan committed the crime of inciting violence. The second is, do you think that that should be a crime? There are two very separate issues. And what's your answer to those questions? which of the questions. Do I think that, well, it's a bit difficult to say what I think about whether or not Graham Lennonahan committed a crime

because there's an active case going on. In fact, there are several... What's a separate case? Can I please finish? A separate to this? If you want me to answer, can you please let me finish? No, but that's a certain... I'm just pointing out. If you want me to answer. He's in court tomorrow for a separate... For a separate offence.

Separate thing. This is not even the first or second time that Graham Linnahann has come to the attention of the police for posting extremist content online. This person, let's be serious here. And I think quite a lot of your guests might not have taken the time to actually read what Linahan has said.

I'm one of many, many people who Linnahann has personally threatened with legal action because I have said something rude to him. What have you said to him? I said I thought he was a bigot and I do. Right. So you have a right to call him a bigot? Absolutely.

But Graham Lennonhan doesn't think, he literally wrote on his blog that I do not have a right to say that. So he clearly thinks that free speeches for some people and not others. But what worries me, what worries me is that that attitude seems to be reflected

by the public at large of the public at large seems to be not outraged at all when transgender people are attacked, physically, and attacked, insulted in the media. You know what, may I please finish? May I please finish?

At some stage, you do have to finish. Would you like me to finish? Yeah, but it's to be a time limit. We've got five guests. Of course. What worries me is that there seems to be a two-tier system of free speech here, where it's free speech for people

who attack transgender people and set themselves up as victims. But when people, when transgender people like me are attacked in public, are attacked either physically or harassed, Bremen and Han is on trial for physically harassing an 18-year-old trans-year-old. We can't talk about the trial. As you know.

We can talk about what he's on trial for, which is physically harassing an 18-year-old girl and smashing her phone. Allegedly. Allegedly. Just to be clear. Allegedly. Just to be clear, he is alleged to have committed some offences, for which he has denied.

He's denied smashing his girlfriend. You're very careful to police language. Just police your own language. What am I policing? But you just accused him of being guilty. Accused him being guilty of physically... You said he did it? Of physically harassing somebody.

He has denied it. Well, I'm sure he has. I think he's allegedly... Well, if you understand British law, you'll know that he's innocent or proven guilty. Of which of the many criminal cases again... Of what you've just said, you just said he harassed somebody. He's denied it.

He's been accused of it. He's denied it. He's going through a formal process in a courtroom. You've just convicted him. So you should withdraw that. I don't have the power personally to convict a person. You just said he was guilty. But that's, I don't have the power.

That's different from convicting somebody. You're very wary about policing his words. You're not so worried about policing your own. You just convicted him of a crime. I don't think that's actually literally the case. I think you're just wrong here. You said he, well, let me explain. Listen, I was a national newspaper editor for 10 years.

I understand the law very, very well. You just said that he harassed and did this to this woman. But that's what he's accused of. Well, if I did that, so let me clarify, Graham Linnahannan is accused of harassing an 18 royal god. He is accused. Graham Lennon has not been convicted of violence against a transgender person, but crucially, not in the same way that you and I haven't been convicted

of violence against a transgender person. Actually, yes, exactly the same way, actually, exactly the same way. I think it's quite different. No, no, it's exactly the same way. Everyone is innocent to proven guilty. That's the point of a law. Now, let me bring in Riley Gaines here. Riley, you and I have talked a lot about this whole issue.

It just seems to me what Malcolm Gladwell said is so significant because he's basically done a complete U-turn on this and understood that even he, one of the smartest brains in the world, got kind of introduced into thinking. It was perfectly normal and acceptable for a biological male identifying as a trans woman to compete in women's sport. You yourself having long. lost out to a trans athlete in a swimming pool at a high level,

understood immediately from that experience, that men have superior biology to women. Therefore, if they compete against women, it is grotesquely unfair because they have superior muscle mass, power. Well, shortly, hang on. I'll come to you in a second, Riley. Sorry, no, Laurie, just to be clear, you're not disputing men have superior biology, are you?

Superior. I just think it's quite offensive to say that, Not really. There's a reason in the Olympics we have women's sport and men's sport. It's because the men, if they can breed it against the women, would win everything. Do you understand that? I just question your use of the word superior to describe male biology. Superior biology, their biology, their physical.

Their physical biology means when they're competing in sport, they have superior biology. They have an advantage from their bodies. You understand? You accept that. Let me clarify this. I think superior in strength and athleticism and how hard they jump and how high they can jump, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

If we're talking about biology, I'm about 38 weeks pregnant now and I would certainly say that my biology compared to my husband's in that way is superior. And I would agree with you. So why don't we just accept that what I was talking about was superior physical biology

in terms of competing in sports. Men are faster, they're stronger, they have more lung capacity, and so on. That is why we separate the sexes. That's what we should all agree. 110%. Yeah, I don't take offense to the word superior. Certainly, I believe there are things women are superior at, and certainly I believe there are things that men are superior at. I don't think this is something to, again, say that women are less than necessarily, but just to, again, reiterate the fact that women and men are very much different.

I don't think there's anything wrong in saying that. And so to your point, peers, this comment that was said by Michael. You said now he's come out and kind of done this full 180 here. I don't think he ever believed that women or that men should be in women's sports. He's just now finally courageous enough, if that's the word you can even use. It's amazing to me. It requires courage to publicly declare that men and women are different. What a sad state that we are living in where it requires courage or bravery to say such.

But that's the case that many, many people have. felt over the past, I would certainly say five, six years, but, but as indicated, really, this has been going on much longer than that. So that, that's my thoughts on that. The majority of, I'll speak for the American people, the majority of American people, as proven by every single Gallup poll, whether, even in states like California, California, I believe they had 40% of voters turnout in support of Donald Trump. Even still, I believe it was 70% of people said that men shouldn't be in women's sports. So this is like a no-brainer for most people. I want to go back really quickly to what we're talking about on the free speech side of things. If you can remember peers,

I was physically attacked, like violently attacked by a mob of radical, psychotic, crazy trans activists who kidnapped me and held me hostage for five hours, all while our police force sat and did nothing, as they said they couldn't. They weren't allowed to because they weren't allowed to. Because they weren't allowed to be seen as anything other than an ally to that community or else they would lose their jobs. So I absolutely and entirely reject the notion that there is a double standard that is in favor of people like me. That is not at all what we have seen. Again, people who unapologetically speak the truth. Now, what we've seen is people like you and J.K. Rowling and other women who put their head over the parapet to fight this battle to protect women's rights. And that's what the battle was really about.

It wasn't anti-trans. It was with some people. There are. are transphobic people out there. I don't doubt that for a moment. There are always, here's the point in the main. Of course there are. But actually, the core debate for me, certainly, and I think for you, was that you wanted to protect women's rights to fairness, equality, and safety. And particularly in the sport issue, but also in the case of, for example, the male rapist in Scotland, who suddenly, having been convicted, put his hand up and says, I'm now a woman, and gets put in a women's prison, which led to the series of,

of events that led to Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister, actually having to resign, because people are like, you're a woman, you're allowing this, you're putting the fox in the hen-coop to attack other women, because he just put his hand up to game the system. That is what offended people. Now, everybody knows how much I enjoy my tea, and I'm very happy to say that today's show

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slash peers. That's peak, P-I-Q-E-Life.com slash peers. Put your hand up. Very politely of you, by the way. Thank you. What would you feel like to say? I'm just confused because I was told I was being brought in to discuss a free speech issue and an issue about whether or not it should be okay to incite violence against a protected minority group like transgender people. But we seem to now be talking about whether or not it's okay to be transphobic.

Oh, no, because the whole point, let me explain that. Hang on, hang on, let me just explain because Laurie's raised a point. The point is that Graham Linehan's become the poster child, poster boy, for a bit. and shaming and attacks and vilification and cancellation. He has become the poster boy for this stuff for many years. It's ruined his life. It ruined his marriage. It ruined his career.

And at the core of his argument was that biological men who identify as trans women should not be in women's spaces. And I agree with him. And Malcolm Gladwell agrees with him. Now, we have, we have gone. Can I go on this? I was going to bring in Blair, because Blair, your YouTube, commentator, but you're also, you're trans. What do you think about this?

I mean, were you offended by Graham Linehan's tweets? Not at all. First of all, I have to say that it was fascinating, listening to you guys talk about free speech as a concept, like as Brits. Coming from an American, you know, when she said that she didn't know that free speech covered offensive speech, that's absolutely what it covers.

That's the most important part of what it covers. That's not what I said. And you can, what, what did you say exactly then? I said that I wasn't aware that it was only people who have particular bigoted views who are protected by the notion of free speech.

The notion of free speech should protect me. I don't think that's how it's being applied because he was arrested. No one's argued that. But the actual point of free speech is you have to tolerate and allow people to say things you don't like. That is the point of free speech.

Unless you're actually... And as far as Graham's... Unless you're actually inciting a crime and nobody could have read that Grandin and tweet and not thought he was just cracking a rather crass joke. I think a lot of people did think that if he's directly encouraging. Blair's a trans woman. Why don't we let her answer?

I'm also transgender. I know. Go ahead. I'm also with her. Are you, if you don't mind me asking? I'm non-binary. What does that mean? I'm a non-binding person.

I use they-then person. Sorry, are we going to spend, do we really want to spend the rest of this discussing my personal gender journey? You're the only one you mentioned it. I didn't even know. Well, now you know. That's a nightmare. So now I know.

I'm just asking you what that means. Like, do you really want to discuss this? You've raised the subject of yourself being trans. I'm simply asking what does that... Wait one second. Wait one second. It's actually really interesting to me. You raised it, not me.

I didn't even know. So now you've raised it, what does that actually mean? What do you mean your non-binary? Are you really, really just going to... Can you explain it? Are you going to cut Blair off now? I'm just asking you to explain. I'll come back to Blair in a moment.

Well, you were the one that cut me off, sis. but I will say that if anything I was... Sorry, Blair, wait one second. I just want to ask, what do you mean by non-binary? When I say I'm non-binary, I'm expressing my identity in a way that I have a right to do. I'm sorry? What's your sexuality? My sexuality.

It doesn't have anything to do with my sexuality. Actually, the UK government now says that people are male or female. The British Prime Minister says people are male or female. I don't think the UK government should have the final say on how I express myself. Well, they determine the laws of the country. I'm just curious. What is what you mean by non-binary? What does that mean? What are your pronouns?

Say them. What does that mean? This is only one of you. What does they-them? Actually, they-them has been, the collective they has been used to refer to individual people for centuries and still is. So, I mean, if you don't understand basic grammar, that's on you. I think you do. I don't understand.

I've got to be honest with you, I don't understand the concept of what non-binary means or why you would use a plural pronoun to describe a singular person. To me, this is. To me, this is the problem with the whole woke thing, is inexplicable. Nobody really knows what it means. I don't know what you mean by non-binary, they, them, is one of you sitting here. And you look to me, female. You're a female?

Okay. Are you a female? If you don't understand what non-binary means. Are you a female? If you don't understand what non-binary means, then I don't. Then I'm not sure you're in a position to lead a debate. So just tell me. I'm sorry.

But if you can't explain it in simple language, then what is it? What is it? What is it? Explain what non-binary means? exactly what being a transnational race. It means that my gender identity is something other than a man or woman. I'm not a binary individual. But you accept you're a female?

I don't think that I'm here to discuss the contents of my... You raised this whole thing. I didn't mention anything about what you were. You did. You said I'm trans. This has really become uncomfortably personal. Has it? You said it, not me.

If you think this is uncomfortable and personal, try undressing in a locker room with a six foot four naked man. Right, exactly. That's the point of this. It's like, what is uncomfortable? I'm having a conversation here. And I'm slightly offended because no one asked me my pronouns. Exactly. I think we should get rid of all pronouns. I think they're ridiculous. Blair, let me bring Blair. Let me bring Blair. Let me bring Blair. You be very patient, Blair. Over to you. You're a trans woman. So let's get back to you. You weren't offended by what Graham Lennon said, no?

No, I'm offended by the phrase arrested for tweets. You know, as an American before anything else, The idea that that's something that's happening over there is scary, considering oftentimes what happens there is only a couple years off from happening here, as is the trans kid issue, which is something I've stood against since the beginning. You guys are sort of the canary in the coal mine as far as what laws are coming here. And it really makes me value the free speech that we do have here and how, you know, even the most uneducated American typically knows that free speech does cover offensive speech. And for me, I'm disgusted that trans is used by the state as a means to bully people and clamp down on free speech. Free speech is infinitely more important to me than anything to do with trans. And certainly non-binary. I'm in the same camp.

I don't even know what it means. And for me, you know, I don't know if any other trans people have, like publicly stood up for a gram, but I'll do it. I don't really don't much about him. My understanding is he's much more famous across the pond, so I don't know. but I saw the tweets and the closest thing to inciting violence was the joke, like you said, kicking someone in the balls. And so it's kind of like, it's scary that this conversation is even happening and trans people are being used as this weapon against people.

Like I never asked for that. I feel like here in America, I see it all the time. I feel like there's constantly new laws, new, you know, social codes being imposed on people that I didn't ask for as a trans person. No trans people I know asked for that. but it will always be a woman, you know, unfortunately, sitting up under camera, calling herself non-binary, trying to advocate for things that should be in place

that I supposedly am supposed to be grateful for and that protects me. Which actually just incite more hatred against trans people. And that I think is a concern. And Lori, I would say to you, I don't give a damn what you want to identify as genuinely. I don't care. And if you want to use pronouns for yourself, absolutely fine.

The problem I have and what I've had in the last few years is me being ordered to say things like they, them, which I find preposterous, or me not being able to ask you, what is non-binary? You're professing to be offended. I don't mind you identifying as all this. I never said I was offended.

Please stop putting words on my mouth. You said, I'm feeling really uncomfortable. I said it was uncomfortably personal. I didn't say I was offended. But you raised the issue of your transgenderism. I didn't. I didn't even know you were transgender. Honestly, I don't know.

I actually had a conversation with your producers before. I didn't know. No, I'm just telling you what I knew. I didn't know. I knew Blair was. I didn't know you were. So my point is, I don't care. You can identify as anything you want.

The debate here is twofold for me. One is that Graham Linoin has said some comedic stuff that some people find offence and other people laugh at and is now being treated like a serious criminal and being arrested. I think that's an abuse of his free speech rights, which shames my country. And secondly, I just think on this whole issue of transgenderism,

I look at what Malcolm Gladwell said, and I do wonder how many people now feel that they were bullied and threatened by the trans lobby into not expressing an honestly held opinion about this issue. And that, again, is an infringement of their free speech because they were being bullied and threatened and cancelled, like Gremlin and others, into not being allowed to say what they actually thought.

And I think that's wrong. Okay, so you think there's no distinction between the state actually intervening, the police intervening to police people's tweets, which I'm really not comfortable with, honestly, since you asked, and people being criticised on the internet. you think that people shouldn't criticize people

for saying transphobic things on the internet. Because that's bullying. Well, it depends what you think is transphobic. You see, the argument Malcolm Gladwell, and I think Lionel made in others, and I saw it many times, J.K. Rallings is a good example. I don't think J.K. Rallings is remotely transphobic.

I'm certainly not. I want trans people to have exactly the same rights as me. My problem is where the trans activists wanted to erode women's rights in the process of promoting trans rights. Today's show is brought to you. by Oxford Natural, makers of the optimum day and optimum night, all natural supplements. Thousands of Brits and Americans are already taking them with incredible results.

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Scan the QR code on your screen or visit Oxfordnatural.com slash peers. And here's the best part. Use the code peers, P-I-E-R-S, and get 70% off your first order. Get 70% off with the promo code, Peers. Let me bring in Dr Helen Weberley here. What did you think about Graham Lenehan's tweets? Well, you called them moderately offensive to some. I think to the trans community at large,

Graham Lenehan has been exceptionally offensive. And when we talk about inciting hatred, the trans community are four times as likely to be the victim of a violent crime than cisgender people. And that is increasing, and it has increased over the last decade that your other guest was talking about. And so we have a problem. And you call it free speech.

But is it free speech when? Yes. For example, he is saying that call the cops, because actually you call the cops when someone's committed a crime. So he's inferring that transgender women in a women's toilet have committed a crime, which they haven't. He's talking about encouraging people to punch them in the balls,

which you find amusing. But it's not. it's, again, it's encouraging violence. So just to be clear, okay, Dr. Weber, just to be clear, online or offline, so you don't think anyone should post stuff which is potentially encouraging violence? It's the long history. No, I'm just asking you just as a general, hang on,

this is a general, hang on, Dr. Weberley, as a general, let me just ask a simple question. As a general principle, it's all I'm asking, do you think it's wrong that people? The general principle, people should not incite violence on social media. Is that what you're saying? The general principle that we're very clear on in the United Kingdom is that minority groups, and they're listed, people with the disability,

sexuality, race, religion, transgender identities. We're inciting hatred against that minority group is considered a hate. My question was whether you felt that people should be allowed to incite violence on social media. Towards a minority group. Absolutely not. So you can incite violence against other people. What about everyone else? You can incite violence against other people.

So you're only protected from violence if you're in a minority group. I don't want it. Sorry, sorry, that's not the law. It's actually, sorry, hang on, Donald Talk. I've got this. I've got this. Dr. Webbley, it's not the law. The law protects everybody, minority and majority groups from threats and

incitement of violence. And the reason I'm asking you, and you probably are ahead of me here, aren't you? Because yesterday, in the wake of Graham Lenehan's arrest, you posted this. Let this be a sage warning to those who think it's okay to have views that are hateful towards trans people. Your time is coming. And you had some emojis, a clock, an ambulance and a coffin. Well, actually, Piers, it's a police car, so not an ambulance. And a coffin. And a coffin.

Yeah, well, if you want me to say, I'm not. So you want Graham Lennon dead, do you? that coffin signifies the end of this behaviour is coming. No, it doesn't actually. So your time is coming. Clock, police, ambulance and a coffin emoji. Well, you realise Graham could say, it is, speaking, but I haven't answered.

Dr. Weberley, if you don't mind me saying, I think you're a flaming hypocrite because you are clearly inciting violence. And in fact, that's a clear demonstrative death threat against Graham and then. You're urging your followers. your time is coming towards people like him, followed by a clock, and you say it's a police car, and a coffin emoji.

So if you don't mind, I won't take any lectures about language towards minority groups, as you put it, who seem to be so protected, but nobody else is from threats of varners and stuff, because you're literally wanting him dead. I think you'd say, hang on, I didn't ask you, I asked Dr. Weber.

I'm a doctor. I don't want anybody there. But what I tell you what I want the end of... You posted a coffin. You posted a coffin. Your time is coming. Terrible situation that we have in the United Kingdom and further afield.

Yeah, I think it is terrible. But I think your own behaviour is terrible. And therefore, you are a hypocrite, aren't you? Well, you've said that before, and it didn't rile me last time. You can say it again if you last. Didn't rile you, but everyone agreed with me. If you were talking about the movement,

you would say the time is coming. You were referring to a specific person when you say you're. That is like a possessive. like pronoun there, your time is coming. I know we had the pronouns debate there. I don't know whether you've got it in front of you or not. To all those, all those who think it's okay to have views, okay?

Those views are coming to an end and that time is coming to an end. And I am absolutely delighted that the police have taken action against somebody who is blatantly transphobic. So should they take action against you? What about the dissenters at the pride protests who call to kill? kill all turfs. I'm looking at a sign right now. It says every time you punch a turf, a trans kid gets more rights. Would you say this person should be met with armed guards at their front door as well? Or people who called to... I don't know who that is. I don't think that's...

Let me explain. Let me explain what that was about. Hang on. Let me explain what that was about. There was a complaint in Scotland after a sign calling for turfs, trans-exclusionary radical feminist, which is a ridiculous phrase anyway, to be decapitated. That means have their heads cut off. This was a pro-transgender rights rally. So the question Dr. Weberley, which Riley is rightly asking, is presumably all of those people carrying that placard and laughing with it, should all be arrested now for inciting hatred and violence. Should they or not?

I don't think inciting violence against any group, whether they are a turf group or a transgender group, is acceptable. What's worse, do you think, decapitating somebody or punching them in the balls? I don't think either is acceptable. Which one's worse? Which one's worse? Which one's worse? I'm not putting any store on which one.

Well, you're a doctor. You should know what is potentially more harmful. Severing somebody's head or punching them in the balls. For people in this world. As a doctor, give me your medical opinion. You not go around punching anybody or decapitating. From a medical perspective, what is more dangerous? Punching someone in the balls or decapitating their head?

Well, from my medical experience, I would suggest but decapitating loss, but I don't really think that's the... Okay, good. So we're agreed that they should all be arrested by five armed police each, yeah? The armed police, you can say that, right? But I don't know whether you've been through Heathrow. They carry arms in Heathrow. I don't think that they really had the guns. Actually, there are lots of unarmed policemen at Heathrow, too.

There's a completely spurious argument. There are many unarmed police at Heathrow. I've seen them, I've spoken to them. And there are armed police who are normally called because people are terrorists, not because they've cracked a joke on Twitter. Let me bring Lionel back in. Lionel, my kind of point about all this, there's a lot of hypocrisy.

There's a lot of hypocrisy, by the way, on both sides. And there are transphobic people who genuinely hate trans people. But there are people like Riley, like me, who just feel that the trans activism has eroded women's rights to the point where it had to be stopped and that actually eroded women's rights

to fairness, equality and safety. How big a moment of the world, moment you think this Graham then her moment is? Because I've been struck by the outpouring of support he's had, which he certainly hasn't had in the past, that the overreach by the state here about his right to have an opinion has now struck a call with people in Britain who are just like, no, we're done with this. I've said all the response I've seen with very tiny exceptions, usually from activists, has been horrified. And that is also in the United States, in some ways, the response in the United States has been even more powerful because it's such a violation of American principles. And these are principles that we got from England, from the United Kingdom.

But we didn't make up freedom of speech. The British did. And therefore, Americans are really upset to see. our inheritance being corrupted and in fact destroyed. I mean, the United States, yes, does have a First Amendment for freedom of speech and the UK does not. So the freedom of speech has never been exactly codified in the UK. And unfortunately, that has made it possible for the law to violate the UK, the UK law, to violate the prime principle of liberal democracy, and that is equality under the law,

that the law is equally applied to a prime minister and a homeless person on the street. We all have to pay the same laws. Not in the UK anymore. This whole idea of having protected characteristics means that there are special laws for special people. And that's the beginning of the end. I totally agree.

Let me bring, Blair. back in. Blair, I mean, you touched on something, and I think it's really important that most, like, I wouldn't say the word average trans people, because I don't think anyone's average, actually. But, you know, a lot of trans people that I happen to have talked to or discussed this with, that they're not interested in this kind of trans war against women's rights. They think it's put back trans rights. They think it's made trans people the subject to more mockery. It's made their lives, you know, in some cases, intolerable because people laugh at them all the time because of this nonsense.

Do you think we're going through a corrective period now where hopefully out of this, trans people can be let to just get on with their lives, hopefully equally, fairly, safely, but not of the expense of an erosion of women's rights? 100%. I think people are trying to navigate that nuance and understand we're all here together

and have to figure out how to coexist. and the idea that the trans movement as a political movement was going to be able to get away with sex changes for children, men beating up women and women's sports, all the unfairness that people like Riley and other female athletes have come forward to talk about. The idea that there was never going to be any sort of swinging back of the pendulum from that.

I mean, I've been warning against that for people my entire career, saying these are all nonsensical positions. Nobody can meet these expectations. If the expectation to not be considered transphobic is things like child sex changes, men and women's sports, no one is, no one's going to meet you there. And I also have to say, you know, no offense to the two women on the panel who are on the other side of this. But with allies like you guys, who even needs transphobes, who needs anti-trans people, who needs anyone who hates trans people, the sorts of positions that you guys hold are the exact reason why there is a whiplash of backlash against trans people. It's these nonsensical, you know, completely unprincipled positions. I mean, the idea that you guys can't even say, okay, it's not cool that like armed cops arrested somebody for tweets?

I did say that. I said exactly that. Okay, okay, but you couched it with, you know, being very vague about if they're... No, I said directly, and I will say it again, it is not okay. Okay, but let me ask you this then, Lori, because NBC News in America issued a correction for using the wrong pronoun in identifying the mass shooter who murdered. two children and wounded many more during a mass at a Catholic school in Minneapolis. In an article on Friday, NBC News initially used male pronouns to detail how the killer who was born male and petitioned for a name change in 2019 successfully amassed an arsenal

of guns in the years before the attack, why do we give a monkey cuss about this person's pronouns when that person has allegedly gone outside of Catholic church and tried to murder as many children as they pray as they could possibly do? Well, I believe that holding any group collectively responsible for the actual crimes that one member, the horrible crimes that one member of that group commits or anything any member of that group might do in the future. I think that is the essence of prejudice.

I think transgender people are increasingly all treated as particular people. So was it correct for NBC News to apologize for using the wrong pronoun about this mass shooter. I honestly haven't been following this story before. I'm not as online as you. The person identified is... The person I did... The match shooter identified as a trans woman, right?

And was apparently misgendered by NBC News. My point is, have we not moved to a place where this is just garbage? I don't think any people are. Where a major news network has to issue a public apology for getting a personal pronoun wrong for somebody, who decided they want to identify in a different way. I think it's ludicrous. Riley?

It's worse than that. It's getting personal pronoun right. I mean, I actually did my spectator column on this. This tradition, and the BBC follows it, as well as the New York Times, abusing people's so-called preferred pronouns, even in instances where they are mass murderers, is, you know, it's cloaked in deference.

It's supposedly being nice to them. But it's worse than being nice. It is implicitly an endorsement of transgender ideology, so that it means, oh, we're not going to acknowledge this person's real biological sex. We're going to defer to their delusion. And that is to embrace an entire way of thinking, which is unhinged and separated from reality. And so it's not a neutral thing to do, and it's not just a nice thing to do.

And the same thing happened with NPR when they were interviewing Senator Amy Klobuchar, and she referred to this deranged killer as he, and the interviewer corrected her and said, we don't know the sex he is. We're not sure. Well, actually, we were very sure. It was already on the record that he was born male. And one of the things that one of my problems with this whole movement is the way that it is imposing requirements on us to, you know, in using the pronouns that we're, that this person prefers, that we are, we are being forced to lie. It is, you know, you look at this person, he's a man, but you're required, this is compelled speech, as Jordan Peterson would point out, you're required to call him a woman, and you will be arrested, you will get police at your door in the UK if you observe biological reality in public.

Yeah, Dr. Webley. This is extremely offensive. I just want to put a line in that. It is extremely. I'm glad you agree. I'm glad you agree. I'm glad you agree. It is, yeah. I don't hear. I agree. I agree. You mean it's offensive that NBC News felt the need to apologize to an alleged match shooter. I think it's offensive, but one of your guests is really openly denying the existence of people who reassign their gender. Okay, what about the topic, though? What about the topic, though? Of that person's gender identity and their pronouns. Yeah, right. I just want to put a line in the sand and say that I find that extremely offensive.

Oh, my God. And many people do you find shooting lots of children and a child? church offensive or not? That crime is something that that person did. And like you were saying at the beginning of your program, we have alleged and we have court cases to come. So I think we need to apply the same standards. Sure, I just did.

But denying transgender identities is a very offensive thing to do. Oh my God. We're talking about kids being murdered and we're talking about misgendering being offensive. This is the disgusting. Do you believe that the shooter in this case is a victim? Oh, for goodness sake.

No one believes that. Sorry? Well, what? Because some people do. Do you believe that the shooter in this case is a victim? It's stupid. Hold on. Hold on.

Just it's really simple. Yes or no. Do you believe the shooter in this case is a victim? A victim of what? A victim of what? Just a victim in general. I would like to hear your thoughts. You need to be a little bit more specific.

This isn't a yes or no answer until you give me. victim. Do you think that victimization ultimately drove someone to commit this crime? I have no idea why that person that person that we think did committed that crime. I'm looking at a tweet that you put out right here and it says, shame on anyone centering the gender identity of the person who shot people dead in Minneapolis. The focus should be on what drives someone to such horror, the abuse, the hate, and the victimization. Ask yourself, have you abused, hated or victimized? That feels like you were trying to guilt trip someone like me into believing that I have blood on my hands

because this person went out and shot a bunch of kids. And I will not be victimized or made to believe that I am a morally guilty person in this case because of the crime of what someone else did. That's a tweet that you thought. Nobody thinks you are. Nobody thinks you are. Nobody's saying that. But she just said in her tweet is ask yourself,

have you abused, hated or victimized? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm a doctor, and I've met many, many people who have been abused. I'm a doctor. That's the third time you've said that. and victimized and harassed. And it causes difficulties. Sorry.

Sorry? You said you're a doctor. It's the third time you've said that. If that's the qualifications to speak on a certain subject, then guess what? I'm a woman. That would disqualify. I mean, people from this panel,

peers from talking about this subject. I thought you were asking me about the effects of bias, hatred, harassment, prejudice on the human psychology, which is what my tweet was about. And yes, they hurt, they cause pain and sometimes they cause surveillance. But you don't even know if, first of all,

you don't even know if that's the case, ma'am. You don't even know if that's the case. You're inventing a narrative about this person before they did what they did, that it involves some sort of bullying. And even if so, in what world were these young Catholic children, the perpetrators of that? I don't think, absolutely not.

Absolutely not. Okay, look, we run out of time. Well, then what is the implication of your post? Because it's not making sense. So make it make sense. It sounded like you were making a victim out of the shooter. The implication of my post is that people who incite hatred, incite violence, harassed, show bias, prejudice,

they have effects. It hurts. And at the moment, which is the topic we're talking about, is it hurts transgender people. And that's not nice. Okay. Let me ask. But how is that even on your mind?

Hang on. Unlike everybody else on the panel, Laurie's been putting her hand up very politely, I have to say, and I have to recognise the inherent politeness in your activity on this panel. I've got a question, though. So is your position that anyone can identify as whatever they want? Yeah, why not? And it has to be respected by everybody else.

Well, I prefer that it was. It's good manners and being a basic, decent human being. So if I said my personal pronouns are hot, hotter, hottest. I would think you are silly, but sure. See, well, that's a bit bigoted. but if you did know they were my pronouns, would you now feel compelled to call me that? I would probably struggle to keep a straight face, but sure.

Because you think... Because you think it's ridiculous. Do you want that? Is it because you think it's ridiculous? Should I call you hot hot? Well, you call yourself they then. Hang on. Is there any more or less ridiculous?

I think people should be able to identify how they like. And I think we're here to discuss a serious... You were mocking my choice of personal pronouns, weren't you? Oh, is that actually your pronoun? Yeah, it's in my choice. Twitter bio. Hot, hot, hot, or hottest. Why are you laughing? No, no, no, I think that's great. It's funny. I think it's fantastic. You're openly mocking me. You see how easy it is to fall into this trap. My point being,

the moment you go down... If you're offended, please, I'm really sorry. I'm not offended. Of course I'm not offended. It was a joke. The whole thing's a joke. But to me, this is the problem with the personal pronoun thing, is that it works right to the point that someone goes, oh right, you can identify as anything you want. Okay, I'm a giraffe and my pronouns are hot hottest. And people go, now you're being ridiculous. I go, well, yeah, that's the problem.

Is that if you allow limitless self-identity, limitless personal pronouns, and you get offended when people don't call you by what you think you should be called, and it's mandated on people, that in the end has the opposite effect to what you think. It doesn't lead to more respect.

It actually leads to more open mockery. It sounds like people here are very, very keen to find, to be victims of, like, trans bullying and trans harassment. I'm not a victim of anything ever. I don't think anybody here is a victim of that. Who is? I'm sorry. Who's a victim?

I don't think anybody on this panel is a victim. How do you know? Actually, no, I don't know. Go ahead. That's an amazing presumption. Apparently, the shooter is a victim, according to the doctor here. Well, isn't that just about the end? That is not what she said. That's not what she said. Nobody is defending that. And I think it's absolutely. It's completely.

It is reprehensible. It is reprehensible to, deliberately misrepresent people who are just trying to say... Okay, well, then this is me a same. All right. Laurie, do you think NBC News should have issued a public apology for misgendering the mass shooter is now dead? I do not care and nobody does. Well, then why did they do it?

I do it. Why do they do it? I've got no idea. I've got to work for NBC. Should they have been compelled to do it? I don't care. What's your view? I don't know. I think my lack of thinking that this is an important subject

It is my view. Fantastic. So you actually agree with me. You don't care about personal pronouns. I'm sorry. I just don't think this is the fixation. You seem to care when I question you, calling yourself they, them.

You got very upset then. So my point is, if you don't care about personal pronouns, I'm with you. I care about the fact that kids got shot dead. That is important. Are you suggesting that I don't? No, I'm just saying that you cared about your own personal pronouns, but you don't care about this other person.

You think I should care about how a killer feels. I think you've got to be consistent. You either think personal pronouns. This is absolutely mad. You either think personal pronouns are a sacrosanct thing, and NBC News was right to be bullied and shamed into apologising for misgendering a mass shooter, or you don't. That's a nonsensical argument.

No, no, it's completely logical. The logical is pronouns are either sacred or they don't matter at all. There's only two things. People should either be mandated to use them or not. NBC News only apologize because people kicked up a fuss that they had misgendered a mass shooter. Okay, look, what is happening here is that Mr. Morgan is having a conversation with himself

about... Actually, I'm having a conversation with millions of people. On one side, you're saying that you're inventing people who are mandating and bullying you, and then you're asking me whether or not I agree with them. This is not... I don't even need to be here because you've already decided what people like me think. I don't know what...

Well, we haven't even established what people like you are. Never mind what you think. I'm so sorry to confront. you, but people like me exist. There are hundreds and thousands of transgender. You're not complicated, girl. You're really not. I respect you to be, to live the life you want to leave.

Thank you. Just don't bully everybody else into using language. If you don't, if you don't care, then stop telling people to use pronouns. Simple. You don't care. Who have I bullied? Am I bullying you? I felt victimized, yeah.

But I've got over it. I'm glad. Thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. And thank you to all my panelists. It's an interesting debate. Lots of nuances. As with all these debates.

It's complicated. No one prevent it's easy. But I do think the reaction to the Gremlin and fall out has been fascinating. This is a guy who no one was supported a year ago, and now everyone is racing to support him with a few exceptions, two of which are on my panel. But that's why we have people with different views on this show. Thank you all very much.

We'll see. Here's Morgan on our sense that is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask only one simple thing. hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Peers Morgan Unsensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent Unsensored Media has never been more critical, and we couldn't do it without you.