Piers Morgan Uncensored - ‘Iran Has NO IDEA!’ Jocko Willink on Trump, War & Running For President + Bryan Johnson SHOCK

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

Jocko Willink is a former US Navy Seal, a bestselling author, a podcasting titan and a leadership expert with a lot to say about discipline. Piers Morgan last interviewed him a couple of years ago - after which a surprising number of people commented that Jocko should run for President. It’s a job he’s not after - but as the Iran war rages on and Trump’s approval ratings unravel, he might well be wondering if he could do a better job after all. He joins Uncensored again. Also; millions of people around the world avidly follow the progress of ‘biohacker’ Bryan Johnson, who spends millions of dollars a year on a gruelling regimen to reverse his biological age - and now he’s on a mission to live for as long as possible. However, he made global headlines last week by revealing he’s fighting a chronic autoimmune disease which wrecks his stomach. People want to know if his condition has been exacerbated by his extraordinary lifestyle - or whether that very lifestyle could lead to a cure. 00:00 Introduction 01:46 Bryan Johnson discusses his autoimmune disease diagnosis 06:50 Piers Morgan asks Bryan Johnson about sharing intimate details about his partner Kate 15:29 People celebrating Bryan’s diagnosis online18:11 Jocko Willink interview begins 18:21 Jocko Willink on if he’d run for President 19:48 Jocko on Iran: “War is completely unpredictable” 25:35 Iraq war and Trump meeting the Iraqi President 28:52 Jocko on Trump’s military actions in Iran 31:33 Jocko explains how war changed him and reveals to Piers the closest he came to death 32:53 Jocko’s America 250 speech about fighting Britain and the monarchy 37:18 Piers and Jocko discuss toxic masculinity 40:55 Jocko and Piers discuss ‘Looksmaxxing’ and Clavicular 44:10 Jocko on self discipline and younger generations struggling to deal with hardship 47:57 Jocko reacts to Steven Bartlett’s wine comments 51:08 Jocko offers advice for people to turn their life around Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. measure everything, whether it's sex, whether it's post-sex, whether it's the vagina. Critics would say the terminology isn't the most romantic, is it? I mean, having sex with a woman

and then producing and publishing her vaginal microbiome report just seems a little ungentlemanly, Brian. In 2030, Brian Johnson is a normal dude. Right now, he may seem eccentric, he might seem out there, but the things I'm doing now will normalize. I'll tell you who I imagine is much more troubled, by the seemingly erratic behavior of Donald Trump, the Iranian leadership. I bet they have no idea what he's going to do next. That's exactly where the president wants to keep them. He is doing a good job of ensuring that Iran does not have a nuclear weapon.

Are you familiar with looks maxing? Millions of people around the world avidly follow the progress of biohacker Brian Johnson. He spends millions of dollars a year on a grueling regimen to reverse his biological age. After all, if he cracks the code, we might all live longer, maybe even forever. It was against this backdrop of universal fascination that Brian Johnson made global headlines last week by revealing his fighting a chronic autoimmune disease which wrecks his stomach.

People want to know if this condition has been exacerbated by his extraordinary lifestyle, or whether that lifestyle could itself lead to a cure. There's not only Brian's health, which has lately been the subject of rampant speculation, Brian's public commentary about his mystery new girlfriend has captured imaginations. I miss Kate so badly that I physically hurt you posted recently.

I feel more stressed. My emotions are stunted. My thoughts are cloudy. My mood is dipped. It just hurts everywhere. In a more cheerful update, you wrote on April 30th, just had sex with Kate. Good night, everyone.

I'm glad I to say, Brian Johnson joins me now. Brian, welcome back to Uncensor. Hey, good to see you. First of all, how are you? Let's do with this autoimmune issue, which has got a lot of attention last week. What is it? How serious is it?

How worried are you about it? That's it. Yeah, I feel great. I was actually asymptomatic. I had low levels of ferretin for the past 11 years. We were trying to fix it. And then I did a colonoscopy recently, and we did some biopsies on my stomach, and we found the diagnosis. So it wasn't the case that I was suffering severe symptoms of some type.

It's really a condition that hides millions of people have it. They don't know they have it. So it can lead to difficulties of absorbing things like iron and B12. It can lead to the elimination of the stomach lining, which is where my stomach is eating itself. and then give rise to cancer risks. So on the scale of things, you know, it's not fatal, but it also is something you don't want to take lightly. It's not curable, right?

Is that right? That's right. It is an incurable disease. And do you know the timeline for when this may have developed inside you? Is it from birth? Is it something from childhood, teenagers, adult life? Well, the first clue I have is I got diagnosed with hypothyroidism when I was 21 years old.

A routine blood draw showed I had. elevated levels. So I started taking medications to have my thyroid function property. And that was managed well for 27 years. And then I had this colonoscopy, this bidirectional endoscopy. That's both a colonoscopy and also a probe down the throat, looking at the entire intestinal tract. And the pieces now make sense because the thyroid and the stomach actually pair well together. When you have a problem with the thyroid, you sometimes have a problem with the stomach. And so if they kind of walk in the same world, the immunology, and so, So this has been something that is baking for the past 27 years.

And a lot of people were trying to attribute this to my last five years. That's not the case. This has been going on for a very long time. And it's the case that I'm actually very fortunate that I have been taking such good care of myself. Because had I not over the past five years, my situation could be very serious. Do you know for a fact it's not been exacerbated by your regimen? I mean, or are you just surmising that? Now, this is an issue with my, so we all have trillions of immune cells. And think of those immune cells,

each one is a soldier. I had a few of those soldiers go rogue. They mistakenly identified my tissue as a foreign attacker. Like something should be neutralized. And so it's my immune system getting confused and traces back a decade. So no, it's not attributable to what I've been doing in the past few years. I've been fascinated by what you do for a long time. We've done interviews about it and many people following it with great interest because they wonder, are you going to reinvent the wheel about life and longevity and so on, as you know?

The one thing I always think, particularly now, right? So it's midsummer and I look pretty tanned because I've been to some hot places and it's been unusually hot in the UK. You look your normal, very pale self. And people look at you and think, does he look that healthy, really? I mean, where's the glow? Where's the sunshine?

Do you ever go out in sunshine? Do you ever expose yourself to the race? Or is that part of the regimen? You can't do that. I mean, the goal is don't die. And so my entire hypothesis of this project is we live in the most unique time to ever happen to the human race. And that is the first time in human history. We may be the first generation who won't.

physically die. Now that is the craziest thought possible in this moment, just like previous thoughts where other things have been unimaginable. And so my job is to be the first human don't die prototype, which means I identify everything that causes me to die, and I remove that, and I then measure everything that causing me to live, and I improve that. And so going out in the sun, the sun is great. I love the sun, I'm out of the sun every day. Also, UVA and you, UVB both cause skin damage. They both age your skin. They both cause DNA damage.

And so the sun and the right amount, not too much, not too little. Now, you can decide where you want to be on that spectrum, but the sun exposure of too much will lead to wrinkles, spots, sagginess. It degrades the quality of the skin. So, of course, we go to Asia, they're very aware of this. You hang out in North America, you can't get enough sun. So it's really a cultural product of how the society understands the sun. but it definitely cuts both ways.

You want just the right amount. We were hoping to talk to your other half, Kate. She's your business partner, co-founder of the whole longevity project. She can see the idea of turning your personal health data into a public science experiment. She's 30. There's 18-year difference between you.

And the reason we were interested in it is because you've been talking a lot on your social media platforms about her and about your sex life and everything else. We thought it would be quite interesting to get her. perspective. But at the last minute, she pulled out, why did she not want to do this? So she actually has a publication doing a profile on her. The piece is coming out today.

She promised them exclusivity. So it was the last minute recollection. She's sad and she couldn't be here. She wanted to be here. So maybe we can talk in the coming weeks. But yeah, she is, she begins her protocol. She's going to basically do the protocol I've done from a measurement perspective. She will become the most measured female in human history. I've been setting this up with her. We have an entire team on this project. We'll spend $2.6 million. a year, we'll have up to 2,000 biomarkers an incredible amount of data. It will be a fantastic project. And I do.

I love her deeply. She is my best friend, and we have a fantastic time together in life. Well, you certainly do. I mean, in April, you posted, just had sex with Kate. Good night, everyone. You then followed up with, here's the data. Sex triggered a post-coital protactin surge, driving vagal tone, 23% above baseline,

and holding it there for seven hours. straight, reducing a 100% sleep score and 86% recovery. The body and mind are pretty happy with the situation. I mean, I suppose it's not the most romantic terminology I've heard in the history of sex, Brian, if I'm brutally honest with you, but you certainly look like you'd had a great night. You know, I also wrote up some pretty descriptive encounters of our lovemaking, and I did it from a scientific perspective. And the observation there is, I mean, I have three children, my oldest two boys. And I don't think that this generation that is being raised, property has received sex education.

You know, what they do learn, they probably learn from porn. And that is not how we want to teach our children how to make love. And so very basic things, for example, the speed at which you move your hand over the person's body triggers either an arousal response or a different one. So there's specific things that person wants to do. For example, for a woman, a man can be ready to go within a minute, within 30 seconds. A woman requires a warm-up period of 17 minutes for her body to actually be in a situation. 17 minutes. 17 or 7-0?

1-7. The woman's body needs to tent. The cervix needs to reposition itself so that when penetration happens, there's not pain. Now, these are things that are really important. So a man or the partner of the woman needs to engage in proper force. to get the woman in the right place so that the sexual encounter is pleasurable. So all these are basic things. Right.

So you posted in the same month in April, just gave K. Oral Sex. Good night, everyone. You then followed up with a microbiome, biome score of her vagina. This is her vaginal microbiome report. 100 to 100 score. Top 1% of all vaginas. I mean, wow. Yeah, you know, I'm fortunate.

You know, Kate has been doing this protocol with me for the past couple years. We measure everything, whether it's sex, whether it's post-sex, whether it's the vagina. We have a few measurements we'll be doing in the coming weeks, which I think you'll find very interesting. I think maybe first in a world for female, but these are the topics that are taboo, but you know what? Like, these are the things we all care about. We care about love and we care about intimacy. We care about pleasure. We want these things to go well.

And so we're providing a scientific frame for people to understand this versus the crass way of porn, it just is not the right way to learn how to do these things. I mean, I guess critics would say, again, the terminology isn't the most romantic, is it? I mean, having sex with a woman and then producing and publishing her vaginal microbiome report, however good it may be, it just seems a little ungentlemanly, Brian. You know, the amount of interest that women have expressed on the vaginal microbiome, it was up 2,500% when you look at internet trends. And so this, of course, is, you know, every person is trying to name proper hygiene. Every person wants to be an attractive partner. And a lot of women

are not sure how to manage the vaginal microbiome. It's a complicated thing. And so having a scientific way to methodically measure, and then for a woman to know what to do is an important step. And so again, these are all basic self-care. This is partner care. This is basic hygiene that we should be having, we should learn as a society. In the same way, I should know what sleep hygiene protocols all. I should know how to be a good lover and how to be a good partner. I guess people would say, okay, but you have to tell us everything. Like last year, you shared a pair of charts on X comparing the duration and quality of your nighttime erections with your own 19-year-old sons. You wrote, his duration is two minutes longer than mine, raise children to stand

tall, be firm, and be upright. And your son shared the poster and wrote, I'm grateful for for the way my dad has raised me, which I guess works on every level. But I've got three sons. The idea of publishing details of our comparative erections would, it wouldn't cross my mind in a gazillion light cheers.

Is there no embarrassment factor here? You know, my son is amazing. I think he is fantastic. He has said yes to me and everything, you know, when we first sat down for him to be in the documentary on Netflix of Don't Die, I said, look, you've got a decision you can make.

We can keep you as a solution. silent person here or you can be out there with me. Now, you're 16 now. It's going to be very hard to know what comes of publicity, but it's entirely your call. And we let that sit for weeks. And he came back and he said, I want in. I'm willing to do it. And he is such a fantastic person. He just rolls with everything. And so I would say a lot of people criticize that. And you know what? I'd say, this is being a good father. You don't, you want your child to have the comfort to experiment. Like, you know, erections, people think of it as a sexual thing. It is not. It is actually. a biomarker for health that represents physiological health, psychological health, and cardiovascular

health. If a man is not having nighttime erections, they're at 72% greater risk of a cardiac gimmick in five years. Women, the same thing. They have the same arousal cycle as men. It's a non-sexual thing. And so teaching people generally that a problem with your arousal cycle when you sleep is a problem of something else is going wrong with your body. Now, to teach by son that basic principle, I think is being a good father. Right, but aren't you putting massive pressure on him when he gets into the dating pool. But you know what? He performs under pressure.

Do you know what? I knew you were going to say that. So presumably he has a long, long string of very satisfied customers. Is that what you're saying? You know what? He's out there proving his numbers. And he's doing something like,

if you look at our time and place, everything that we consider to be crazy, normal was once crazy. And so, yes, people talk about this. But you know what I'd say, Pierce? In 2030, Brian Johnson is a normal dude. Right now, he may seem eccentric. He might seem out there.

But the things I'm doing now will normalize. And you'll see you in time. People will forget that they have this extreme response to me. These are things that are inevitable. People will measure the body routinely. We will want to know these things. Like it will be kind of crazy. We'll have our heads in the sand that something can be wrong with our body and we won't know it.

The problem, well, it's not really a problem, but the reality of your situation is that should you just outlive everyone? Of course, it's been an unbelievably spectacular success. and everyone will go, I wish I'd done that. But if you were to suddenly die, I mean, God forbid, I'm not wishing this on me, obviously. But if you were to suddenly die, the project dies that second. And you wouldn't even be around to know it failed. Yeah, the thing is, this project, I have become an idea. I'm no longer a person in people's minds.

I represent this idea that death may no longer be inevitable. Now, death has been the primary concern of humanity for all of time. is the omnipresent concern of the human race. You look at everything we've done with religions and philosophy. It has been our primary objective species to explain what is death. And our curiosities is our joy, it's our fear. And right now in the early 21st century, I embody the philosophical and archetypal persona

of what is our relationship with death. And I'm challenging the status quo to saying it is no longer inevitable. So if I were to die, I'd argue that I would actually, that me as a concept would actually strengthen, that the movement here no longer depends upon my physical presence because the idea has been out there. You wrote on exit at the weekend upon hearing the news of your diagnosis. Many were saddened, however, joy dominated the commentary.

And that is a symptom of our times. I've seen the same thing in the political arena after Lindsay Graham died, after Charlie Kurt was murdered. We see this kind of stuff all the time with public figures of any kind. I think it's a sick malaise in our society that people would feel that way. I don't want you to die. I want you to be healthy and live as long as you possibly can.

I think what you're doing is a fascinating social experiment. And it may be the world is incredibly grateful to you, but it's like the world has been driven by people who do stuff like you're doing, who experiment and try things and think differently. But how do you feel when you see a lot of people gleeful at the prospect that you might die and therefore, nah, nah, proved you're wrong. You know what I mean? Yeah, energized.

You know, I learned how to deal with hate. my grandfather used to break in his colts with me. You know, like thinking back, I didn't think of it during the time, but he'd walk me out. The colt would be there, first time strapping on a saddle, and he'd get up on the horse. And I learned there, when I walked up to the horse, the horse and I would be eyeing each other.

And I'd learned that the horse would mirror my emotions, that if I felt internal anxiety or fear, I couldn't hide it. The horse would see right through me in fear and feel it. So I had to calm myself, feel confident, and walk up to the horse and say, you're okay, I'm okay. I get up on the horse and it would be startling. They'd buck around and try to get me off and I just would hold to some firmness.

Like, I'm here to stay. If I fell off the horse, I'd get right back on and say, I'm here to stay. You're not getting rid of me. Hate is very similar. It's the people feel you. And if you're angry and you're anxious and you're fiery, they mirror it back. If you're calm and self-deprecating and nice and charitable and generous, they also would mirror that to some capacity. So right now, it's just the case.

and you're just riding your rhythm. And so, no, I find joy in it. This is not a surprise. This is how the human race is. I think this moment is hard. I think people are feeling hurt. I think they're sleep deprived. They're metabolically unwell.

We have a pretty sick society. So I don't blame people. It's a pretty tough moment right now to be human. Well, Brian, I wish you all the very best. I certainly only have joyful views of your attempt at longevity. If it works, I want a piece of the action. And I hope next time talking of action, we talk to Kate as well. It'd be really interesting to her take on all this.

But I appreciate you coming back on our census. Thank you very much. Good to see you. Before the next track starts, have you ever wondered, who are the people in my old family photos? Or what brought them to Canada? With ancestry, you can start finding answers. Start with a name and we'll guide you from there.

For just 499, try our new 30-day beginners pass and uncover generations of family stories. No experience necessary. You've got questions. We've got ancestors. Offer ends July 22nd, 2026. Visit Ancestry.ca slash beginners for details. Terms apply. Jocco Willink is their former US Navy SEAL, a best-selling author, a podcasting Titan and a leadership expert with a lot to say about discipline. I last interviewed him a couple of years ago, after which a surprising number of you commented that Jocco should run for president.

Clearly, he didn't take up that advice yet. But as the Iran war rages on and Trump's approval ratings unravel, well, he might be wondering if he could do a better job after all. Jocco joins me now. Jock, welcome back to Unsensitive. Thanks for having me, Pierce. Good to see you. Would you ever run for president? I certainly hope it doesn't come to that. I don't want to get involved in politics.

That's not really my deal. I mean, the reason I ask is sort of the old conventional route that people took, you know, coming through the political ranks and local levels, state level, federal level, and so on, then eventually you ruck up enough experience. That's all kind of gone out the window. Trump has blown all that to pieces, really,

as a formula for becoming the most powerful person in America, there's nothing really to stop anyone. And you have a big profile, big YouTube following. You have a lot of attributes that many people, I think, would like to see in their commander-in-chief, never mind anything else. Well, I guess thank you, but again, you're trying to put me,

you're trying to volunteer me for a job that I don't particularly want, but thank you. Let's get straight into the one thing I was really wanted to talk to you about. the Iran War, because I can't think of many people better qualified for your own extraordinary experience of combat and warfare to try and work out what is happening here, whether you think it's a good thing, a bad thing, how long it may take before we can answer that question and so on. So just first of all, what is your view of where this war has got to, four months in?

I think one of the most important things to remember, and I think this is where a lot of people, they really get caught up in going in the wrong direction. And that is war is completely and utterly unpredictable. And any time in the past that we have had this idea that the way the war is going to unfold is what we think it will and we've got a plan and we'll go execute the plan and that's the way things will work, that has never worked out for us in the past.

And so I think the idea of trying to predict exactly what's going to happen with this particular war is also kind of a lost cause. I think you have to, well, from the military perspective, there's something called an Oudaloup, which is you observe what is happening, you orient yourself to what is going on and how you fit into it, and then eventually you decide what you're going to do, you take an action. Once you take that action, the loop starts again because you have to see what unfolds based on what you just did.

And you do this over and over again, and you make constant small adjustments to try and see where you're going and what adjustments you need to make. And eventually, hopefully you get to a place where you want to be. And I think that's been interesting to see with this particular war. We've headed in one direction, stopped, gone back in another direction, stopped, gone back in other directions, gone to negotiations, had a ceasefire, started bombing again, another ceasefire, more negotiations. And it seems like we're trying to figure out where this is going to go. And again, I think that's actually the only thing you can do is make adjustments. as to what you're seeing real time in front of you.

But when your mission statement, and again, I can't think anyone I'm better qualified to answer this, when your mission statement and position seems to change on the whim of a day today, and when the original goals, which was supposed to be achieved very quickly, clearly weren't achieved,

and when you get into a longer war of the kind that Donald Trump always vowed he wouldn't get into, you know, it looks to me, I've known him a long time, that he wants to get out of this, but doesn't quite know how to get out of it. Because the Iranian regime remains there.

It hasn't been taken out. The IRGC remain in control. The people haven't risen up in the way people were led to believe would probably happen. The Strait of Hormuz has become this secondary asymmetric warfare, if you like, where the Iranians pretty much controlling it to this day.

Then you have all the attacks on the Gulf states and the damage that's done. I look at it all, I think there's no enriched uranium has been handed over. There was the 12-day war last summer, which we were assured had put back the Iranian nuclear program decades. Well, then, why are we attacking them eight months later to do exactly the same thing? None of it is making much sense to me. Does it make sense to you? Or as somebody who I imagine, just from what I've read about you, had very clear mission goals

when you had men serving under you, because you understood that in warfare in particular, you've got to have that. You've got to know exactly what you're doing, how you're going to do it, what the exit strategy is, and what victory looks like. I don't see any of that here. Yeah, and I think from Trump's perspective,

I would say he looks at things more like a business of, hey, the market is changing, the competitors are doing this, we need to make some adjustments based on what we're seeing in the market real time, and that's what he's doing. And at least that's what it looks like to me

and making these adjustments, you know, again, entering negotiations and announcing that looks like we've got a deal and then a couple days later, launching bombs, that's what you do when you're trying to adapt to a situation that you're not exactly sure how it's going to end up. If you were serving, if you were serving, Jocker, if you were serving and that was going on, and every single day the commander-in-chief

was posting stuff on social media, often completely contradicting what he said the day before, is that not incredibly unsettling? for the military. Now, my brother was an army colonel and a British army. I know he says it's just like it's the ultimate nightmare when the guy at the top is out there telling everyone what he's going to do.

Then he doesn't do it. Then he does some of it. Then he says, these guys are great. Then he says they're all going to be killed. Then he says he's going to blow up Iran. Next day he wants to do a deal. And so on. This constant, contradictory stream of consciousness,

if you're actually serving and you're risking your life, during all this, it's going to be a nightmare, isn't it? I think it would definitely be challenging. And listen, you can talk to your brother that was in the Army. The chain of command makes changes, and it impacts at such a high level across the board. You know, one day you think you're doing something. The next day you think you're doing something else.

The things changes all the time. And the military, we're used to that. But I'll tell you who I imagine is much more troubled by the seemingly erratic behavior of Donald Trump, and that is the Iranian leadership. I bet they are totally confused and have no idea what he's going to do next. And my guess is that's exactly where the president wants to keep them. I've argued that, you know, they haven't learned the lesson of history. I was editor of a big newspaper in the UK in 2003 when the Iraq war was started.

I opposed that war very vociferously after on the front page for days and weeks. Tony Blair was a British Prime Minister. I took him on over it. I felt it was wrong at the time. I think it was wrong now. Interestingly, my understanding is that you think on balance the Iraq war was worth doing. A, is that correct? Is that what you think?

And if so, why? Well, I mean, we'd have to break down all kinds of things to get into the conclusion of that argument. I think that there was a time when in Iraq where we had really achieved something positive. And it looked like we were going to be able to eventually end up, with an Iraqi state that is kind of moving in the right direction. Now, I will tell you, right before I came in here, I was watching Iraq and, or sorry, President Trump and the new prime minister having a meeting in the White House. And it was a very positive meeting.

Well, we have a clip. We have a clip. I'm going to agree with you, actually. Let's play that click. Now, you've mentioned it. We love Iraq. And they're well represented. This man just won a big election.

They are very well represented. I can tell you that. Thank you very much. No, I can't imagine you reacting very well. If that had been a U.S. president in 2003-4-5 saying, we love Iraq. But times changed. Times move on. We're 20 years plus on now from shock and all.

You know, what do you feel about that? When you see President Trump greeting the Prime Minister of Iraq so warmly and saying, we love Iraq. What does that make you feel? Well, you've got to remember that even in 2004, 2005, 2006, we were fighting alongside Iraqi troops. We were supportive of their government. And to see this relationship grow is a very positive thing. That was the goal the whole time was to form a good relationship and have a positive influence over Iraq and over the rest

of the Persian Gulf. So I think this is great to see. I wish it would have happened earlier. I mean, my issue with the Iraq War was I never thought that there was conclusive evidence. And it turned out there's a reason for that, that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. And there's similar rhetoric around Iran, that we've got to stop them developing weapons of mass destruction and so on. And I just felt like history was slightly repeating itself, where you launch into an invasion,

you commit a lot of forces, and in the case of Iraq, ground forces, you were involved in some of the most brutal battles that America's ever seen. And I'll come to that in a moment. And that, you know, Trump, I felt, got that. He always talked about, I didn't agree with the Iraq war. I wish it hadn't happened.

If I'm president, we will not be doing, you know, these senseless wars in the Middle East. It's not going to happen. And yet here he is in the middle of, you know, arguably the biggest one imaginable, the biggest enemy in the Middle East, Iran, something that many presidents before him had been asked to join in an attack on and had always said no. quite solid reasons. You know, I just feel like he's taken a massive gamble here. Is it a gamble worth taking in your estimation?

Listen, I think that it's interesting to think that perhaps Trump is looking at this strategic situation long term for America and the world. And he decided that what was most important in the long term for our kids and our kids' kids is that Iran does not have a nuclear weapon. And if that's what he is trying to accomplish, it seems like he is doing a good job of ensuring that Iran does not have a nuclear weapon now or in the future. And if that's the gamble, if that's what he's putting on the table

and he's trying to stop, it certainly looks like he is going to pull that off. Obviously, there's been some American casualties, and that's always horrible. but on the whole, it's been relatively small number of casualties, and we're still making progress. I think this is sort of a new form of siege warfare. You know, like we saw in the past, you'd surround a castle and just wait them out. And it certainly seems like that is on a big picture what we are looking to do to Iran. It's a siege warfare, shut them down economically, continue to do damage to their infrastructure,

and eventually, will they have the will to continue? I think that's the big question. When will there will break? And the only thing that's going to tell us that is time. Would you be comfortable about a commitment of a large number of ground forces going into Iran? I don't think that's going to be necessary. I don't think they have any capability to require large number of ground forces going into Iran. I don't see it happening.

I would have to see what situation unfolded that would demand that. But, you know, let me be clear. I'm not a big pro-war guy over here that wants us to run around invading countries. No. I mentioned earlier that you've been in some of the most ferocious battles imaginable. Your most famous, arguably, was the task unit bruiser. You were commanding task unit bruiser. during the Battle of Ramadi in Iraq in 2006.

You led very iconic military figures like Chris Kyle, the American sniper. Ramadi was the epicenter of the Iraqi insurgency, one of the most dangerous places in the world at the time. And under your command, the task unit suffered heavy losses, but achieved incredible tactical success. It became the most decorated special operations unit of the Iraq War, which is an extraordinary achievement. When you go through something like that, Jocco, what does that do to a man?

What does it do to you? Well, interestingly, I think that combat like that and war in general and really military service, I think it makes people better. I think it makes you appreciate life more, appreciate freedom more, appreciate the opportunities that we have every single day, especially in America. and I think that going to war and seeing combat and seeing the sacrifices that get made strengthen all those feelings of patriotism

and of really not wanting to waste any of this precious life and freedom that we have. What was the closest you personally came to death? I had, you know, rounds going overhead, had mortars land in my vicinity, but I was relatively lucky and, you know, never got wounded or anything like that. But there was, obviously, the Battle of Vermont,

the soldiers and Marines that fought, that we fought alongside, suffered immense casualties. And, you know, that is, again, every day, why I think about what we can do as individuals to make sure we live the best life we possibly can to honor those sacrifices. You, for the 250th anniversary of American Independence, Obviously, we don't quite share your joy over here in the UK about that.

We look at it slightly differently. And you made a little joke in your speech, Jocker, which I intend to have out with you. So let's listen to this. When we declared independence from Great Britain, the world's most powerful empire. And then we had to fight them. Now, the British had more men, more. more guns, more ships. But we had something the British did not have.

You see, the British soldiers and officers, they were subjects of the king. But we would bow to no man. Four forefathers knew that there was something more important than king and crown. something more important than safety or substance, an ideal more important than life itself. The founders of our country, for them, the most important thing was freedom. Now, my quibble with that would be

that our royal family is pretty unique now around the world. There aren't many royal families, monarchies left. But they bring something a little different. I mean, they're not elected, that's obviously true. They don't have any actual democratic power as such in the sense that we have a working parliament and members of parliament. They do all that kind of stuff. The elected officials do that kind of thing.

But they provide a kind of constancy and stability, which many people here find very reassuring. I'm thinking particularly of the reign of Queen Elizabeth II and now King Charles. Now, when King Charles went to Washington recently, I thought it was great, the whole thing. And, you know, we don't feel like we're kind of subjects who are being ruled over in the old sense.

They're just there now as figureheads. Do you not miss a bit of that, Jocker? Wouldn't you like the continuity of one family rising above all the political fray who could just be like your little standard bearers? Wouldn't you just, isn't it a little part of you slightly jealous of our monarchy, Jocca? Yeah, and I don't know if you know this, Pierce, but I'm actually married to a Brit.

I did not know that. Not only do I have a... Yes, I'm married to a Brit, and so I've spent many, I've spent a lot of time in England, and I've always appreciated British history. I was also an English major when I went to college. I had to read Shakespeare and enjoyed reading Shakespeare and have been through that whole thing. So yes, I do have a great appreciation for England and British history. And of course, obviously, with my wife and her family and my kids,

we are 100% on board for England in the World Cup. So let's go. Well, I have a little plan here where if England do beat Argentina and the semifinal and then win the final and win the World Cup, of course, it would be an extraordinary moment where just literally days after you celebrate your 250th anniversary of independence, England returning glory to win the World Cup in. New York, in New Jersey, the epicenter of the United States.

And, you know, I have suggested to Donald Trump, this could be a moment. I was texting him on the 250th day, actually. This could be a moment to bring back the British monarchy. You know, that clearly, if we're world champions of the most popular sport on earth and we win it in your backyard, it just feels like a natural evolution. And, you know, if you're looking for a first king to preside over you, Jocko, I'm willing to serve. Well, I wouldn't hold your breath on that one, but we have enjoyed great, you know, great partnership with the Brits. And I was lucky enough to work with the Brits overseas and nothing but respect, just absolute professional soldiers across the board.

They were outstanding to work with. And we always appreciate our allies in the Brits. You have, I think, you've got four teenage kids, three girls and a son. Is that right? That is, they're not really teenagers anymore. They're a little older now. Right. So there's an ongoing debate, isn't there?

About masculinity. You know, people like to brand it toxic. We've had all the Me Too and Times Up campaigns and so on. A lot of young men feeling sort of under siege, under attack, not quite sure how to behave anymore. They're gravitating to, you know, quite misogynist figures like Andrew Tate and people like this, which has been very unhealthy, I think. but they gravitate to them

because they also see some positive things getting fit, getting healthy, getting strong, getting mentally strong and so on. What do you feel about this? And what do you say to your son, and I'll come to your daughters, but what do you say to your son about and navigate this new world we live in

and how to be a man in an environment and era where a lot of masculine traits have been branded toxic? Yeah, I think if you take any human, trait of any kind and you take it to an extreme, it will become toxic. If you take competitiveness and you take it to an extreme where now you're cheating or trying to maneuver and destroy people in order to win, that's problematic. If you take being assertive, which is a positive trait,

but if you take it to extreme, you don't listen to anybody else. Even something very positive like generosity. Well, if you take generosity to an extreme, now you're going to be giving everything in a way and you're going to be taking advantage of. So, You take any human characteristic and you take it to an extreme and it's going to become a negative, whether that's a positive, a masculine trait or a traditionally masculine trait or traditionally feminine trait. So what we have to do is teach people to be balanced and not take any of these traits that they have or characteristics to an extreme because when you take them to the extreme, they do become

toxic. And, you know, I ended up writing a bunch of kids' books called Way of the Warrior Kid. It's a whole series. and it guides kids on how to navigate the world and be better people. And actually those have been made into a movie and a movie that's coming out in November. So I think we're going to be able to spread the message,

a good positive message about how to be good people in the world. And that's going to, I think it's really going to help out a lot of kids and I think it's going to help their parents too. I'm trying to think what it must have been like for your daughter's boyfriends to turn up on your doorstep to take out one of your girls on a date. And I was reminded of when I interviewed Arnold Schwarzenegger and his daughter, I think, was 15 at the time

and had just started dating. And I said, how did you handle this? He said, well, when this young man turned up, I answered the door, raised myself to the biggest possible size I could and said, if you upset my daughter, I will terminate you. What does Jocco Willink do in that scenario?

You know, my daughters are all great, great people and they have their own personalities and they can completely handle themselves and don't need their dad to be looking over their shoulders. You know, they all train Jiu-Jitsu. They're all good fighters. They all have good, strong minds, and their dad doesn't need to be looking over their shoulder. And even when they were younger, I told them, you know, I'm not always going to be here. You need to learn how to take care of yourself.

You need to learn how to stand up for yourself. And my daughters all absolutely can stand up for themselves and look out for themselves. and they don't need their dad looking over their shoulders. Are you familiar with looks maxing, chocolate? Yeah, yeah, well, I mentioned that my kids are not teenagers, but they're still young enough to keep me filled in on all the internet drama that's going on. So, yes, I'm familiar with looks maxing.

So I interviewed this kid, Clavicular, and a huge number of people watch the interview, and it was amazing the number of people in London, right, who knew about this 20-year-old American kid and looks maxing and so on, where you max out your looks. I mean, you're a handsome guy, jockey. I know you've given up drinking. You're very fit.

You keep very strong and healthy and so on. But are you tempted to veer into the full looks maxing world? Smashing your bones up in your jaw with a little tighter line? No, I think I'm perfectly fine the way I was never the best looking guy in the world. I'm doing okay. I married up. Like I said, I married up. so I'm doing all right.

And what's really interesting about that clavicular character is what the internet did behind the scenes to get him so popular. There was something like 1,600 individual people that were making clips of him and producing hundreds of thousands of clips a month that were getting pushed out. And so it kind of artificially took over the algorithm

and that's how he became so popular. So you've got to be careful with that algorithm than people, especially kids, just because you see something, doesn't mean it's good for you, doesn't mean it's healthy, it doesn't mean it's right. Last time we chatted, you talked a lot about, you know, your personal sort of regime, how you like to start your day at 4.30. And we got some hilarious responses to this from viewers. One was Jocker started waking up at 4.30 a.m. when he was three, so he could drop his parents off at work before kindergarten. Another said, when Jocker left the house at 18, he said to his dad, okay, you're the man now.

And then someone said, wish Chocco had run for president. This is who we need. And someone else said you look like a male version of Matt Damon, which is a little bit harsh on Matt Damon. But a lot of reaction, but a lot of people really fascinated by your sort of personal self-discipline. Because I think the problem most people have in life is a failure to be self-disciplined enough.

And it takes a lot of self-discipline, right? I mean, I feel very strongly, I'm a father of four kids, three sons and a girl, so the other way around to you. But the thing I've really detected is there's a whole generational thing going on with young kids, particularly since the advent of smartphones in 2010, where they just seem to be much more anxious about normal stuff in life, you know, grief, losing a job, you know, buying a car, buying a home, spilling up from a girlfriend, good, bad, whatever it may be. Normal life stuff seems to make young people much more anxious than it used to.

For whatever reason, have you seen this? And what is the best sort of mental strength toolkit to apply to? Because I don't think we help these kids develop a mental strength toolkit enough to deal with life because they obviously are struggling with it for whatever reason. Well, they're struggling with it because life is hard.

And it's not just hard for them. It's hard for everybody. You know, a couple years ago, I was at a restaurant. And I'm at this restaurant. A guy comes up to me and he says, hey, can you come meet my buddy over here? And I end up in this conversation with these two individuals. They were both police officers. And one of them had been involved in a officer-involved shooting.

It was a hostage situation. People had been wounded. People had been killed. He had been put on administrative leave from work. And obviously, he's having a hard time. And as I'm talking to him, I look at him and I said, oh, so do you have some regret over the way things went down? And he said, yeah. And I said, do you wish you would have done some things different?

And he said, yeah. Do you feel like you're thinking about it all the time? And he said, yeah. I said, are you having some bad dreams about it? And he said, yeah. And I said, hey, all that is totally normal. This is normal. You went through a really traumatic situation.

People got hurt, people got killed. You saw people get killed. That's a terrible thing to go through. And the fact that you're thinking about it and having some nightmares, that's normal. It's okay. And that's so many kids these days, they think that because they got dumped by their girlfriend or dumped by their boyfriend and it hurts really bad. Guess what?

We all went through that. That's part of life. You didn't get into the college you wanted. Okay, you're going to figure it out. So I think, and even with my youngest kids, when my kids, when my kids, kids were younger, I remember something happened at school, you know, one of them got called a name or something like that and was really distraught about it. And I kind of, you know, had the attitude of, well, who cares? But I realized in her world, that was a massive deal. You know, she's in a school,

she got in class where there's only 50 kids in there and she's getting called some name by one of those kids. That's a terrible situation in her world. And so everybody's world, you're in it. It seems terrible, but you got to remember, you're not alone. Everybody's been called names, everybody's been dumped, and everyone has lost family. They've lost their grandparents, their brothers, their sisters, their mothers, fathers. People die. People, these things happen. And so I think one of the best things we can do for kids and adults, when they're going through tough times, and they feel a certain way, instead of the feeling like, oh, I get sad when I think about my friend that I lost. What's wrong with me? There's nothing wrong with you. You lost one of your friends. I mean,

I lost some of my best friends. And of course, when I think about them, do I get sad? Absolutely. Does that mean that there's something wrong with me? No, there's nothing wrong with me? I'm a human being. I had friends. I had connections, and those connections are gone, and I miss them. Does that mean there's something wrong with me? No, actually, the opposite is true. That's totally normal and you're doing okay. So let the kids know that you're going to have ups and downs in life. Life is really hard. Sometimes you're going to feel like you're knocked, get knocked down and you don't feel like you can get up again. And everybody has felt that way. Well, I always read the, stand back up, get back to your feet. I always quote the Rocky Balboa speech to his son,

you know, the famous one about life's not how hard you can hit, it's how hard you get hit, get back up and keep moving forward. That's how winning has done it. That is so true, right? It just is true. It's how you deal with adversity. It determines how happy your life is. Because we're all going to have to deal with it. You don't get a pass from life's difficult stuff. It's going to come. Often when you least want it

to. It's an interesting debate went on recently with a guy called Stephen Bartlett. I don't know if you know Stephen. He does the diary of a CEO podcast. Very, very popular. He's a good friend of mine. I like him very much. He's very successful. But he sparked a big debate on wellness culture

when he revealed that drinking three glasses of wine ruined the next three days of his life. He attributed the multi-day fallout to disrupted sleep, cortisol and dopamine imbalances, skipping the gym, lower performance on his podcast, all of which he monitored via his whoop wearable. And he got kind of mercilessly mocked for this, right? And even I was like, come off it, Bartlett, three glasses of wine.

I mean, this is not going to have three cataclysmic days of impact on your life for the way you're telling it. But you know, you used to drink heavily when you were a Navy SEAL, and then you gave up completely. Did you know what he was getting at here? That he's not really a big drinker, and he just was making the point that when he does,

he just throws him off, and he doesn't like that feeling. Would you empathize with that? Yeah, I think he's making a good point. I mean, he's making a little bit too of an extreme, and I know him as well. He's a great guy, super nice guy. And I think he was probably breaking it down to the nth degree, and maybe it sounds a little bit extraordinary when he explains

it. But let's face it, drinking is not good for you. It's not going to help any aspect of your life. And, you know, when I got out of the military, you know, like you said, I drank while I was in the military. It's part of the culture inside the military. And I just kind of went along with it, didn't think much of it at the time. When I got out of the military, and I just slowly stopped drinking and eventually I looked around and I saw too many people that I know that had completely destroyed their lives from alcohol completely destroyed their lives and when I started weighing that complete destruction of people's lives versus maybe you have a nice night with your friends it just didn't add up anymore and so now I'm I'm very anti-alcohol anti-drugs at this

point in my life for sure. I love a drink. That's the problem. I don't like getting drunk, drunk very often, but I like a nice glass of wine, a nice pint of beer. I couldn't imagine suddenly just never dealing with that. I mean, do you ever have a little hankering, a little devil on your

shoulder? Say, come on, joker. One isn't going to hurt. The last time I had a pint to Guinness was at the England game World Cup four years ago. So, I don't know, tomorrow could be my lucky day for another pint. Just final question for you, Jock.

I'd love talking to you. Thank you so much for coming back on. I was always struck by speech that Admiral McCraven made a commencement ceremony when he talked about, if you want to succeed in life, just sort out the basic small stuff first. And he famously talked about get it up and make your bed. What's the thing that you would say, if it's not making a bed? What do you do?

What should people do with that kind of mindset to get their lives in the right way. Yeah, so people always ask me, do you make your bed when you wake up in the morning? And I always say no, because my wife's still in my bed when I wake up in the morning. I would say the most important thing

that I think will have the biggest impact is when you wake up in the morning, go and do some kind of physical activity. I don't care if you go for a jog, go for a walk, do some push-ups, do some yoga. But waking up in the morning and starting off with some kind of physical activity, improves every aspect of your life.

And furthermore, you know, I heard a quote from RFK Jr., who said if you find a healthy person, they have a thousand problems, and a sick person only has one. And I think we really, everyone needs to prioritize their health every single day. And it's one of those things where, listen, if I don't work out today or I don't go to the gym today,

is it going to ruin my life? Nope, it's not really going to be even noticeable. But that day turns into another day, turns into another day, turns into another day, and all of a sudden your health is at risk. So if I would encourage anybody to do anything to help square away their life, wake up in the morning and do some kind of physical activity first thing, and it will make your entire life a little bit better. You know, it's interesting because I broke my hip a few months ago.

And as I was doing the rehab, it's obviously torturous. But, you know, I began to walk every day more and more each day. It was very painful to start with and very slow and very laborious. But I actually got to really like just getting up quite early and going for an hour-long walk. And it really cleared my head. So I was actually feeling increasingly healthy, despite the fact I was physically a bit battered. And it just reminded me, I mean, I had the same thing in the pandemic when all he could do was walk around. That actually just going for a walk, actually, clearing your head, you know.

It's actually free exercise. You've got to pay anyone. Just get out there and do a bit of walking. question. It's coming from one of my producers. It's a free exercise, and that's a great place to start. Yeah. Final question for one of my producers, he's a combat movie nut job, which explains some of his behavioral pattern. If you could only watch one combat movie, what would it be? It would be the HBO series, The Pacific. Ah, great series. Great series. Good call. Very good cool. And of all the combat heroes, who's most like you? Well, I don't know who's most like me, but the person I learned the most from and looked up to the most is a guy named Colonel David Hackworth, who wrote a book called About Face, which is my favorite book of all time, and he had the biggest impact on me and the way I tried to lead, trying to emulate his example.

How would you like to be remembered? I just hope my kids think I was a decent dad. You know what? You actually, in the end, if you don't get that, you failed in life, I think. Jock Willey, what a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed for sparing the time. Thanks for having me. Good seeing you. Pierce Morgan Unsensit is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me.

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