Piers Morgan Uncensored - Is Aaron Bushnell A Martyr?

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Piers is speaks to Dr Cornel West, who discusses whether US airman Aaron Bushnell's self-immolation outside the Israeli embassy in Washington was an act of martyrdom before Piers is joined by author Alan Dershowitz and Palestinian activist and politician Mustafa Barghouti for an explosive debate on Gaza. Follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on: Twitter: https://twitter.com/PiersUncensored Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/piersmorgan... Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/piersmorganu... TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@piersmorganun... Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well, pressure is again intensifying on Israel after U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris called for a ceasefire in Gaza and rebut the humanitarian catastrophe there. Opinions on the war are sharply divided in America, Israel's most important ally, a fact lay bare by the death of U.S. airmen Aaron Bushnell last week. The 25-year-old set himself a light outside the Israeli embassy in Washington, D.C., shouting free Palestine and declaring he would no longer be complicit in genocide. Well, presidential candidate, Dr. Cornel West, stirred up controversy by posting the following to X. There does ever forget the extraordinary courage and commitment of brother Aaron Bushnell, who died for truth and justice. I pray for his precious loved ones.

Let us rededicate ourselves to genuine solidarity with Palestinians undergoing genocidal attacks in real time. Well, many Jewish commentators, said Dr. West comments encourage political violence by those opposed to Israel's existence. But joining me now to discuss his controversial post, is the independent presidential candidate. Professor Cornel West. Cornell, great to see you.

Thank you very much for coming back on Uncensored. Always a blessing to be in conversation with you, my brother. And the feeling is very mutual. Let me just ask you. Many people were pretty surprised by the tone of your tweet, not least the fact that you would categorize what Aaron Bushnell did as extraordinary courage and commitment. many people think it was the act of somebody quite possibly very seriously, mentally ill,

taking his life in dramatic circumstances, and that that was not necessarily consistent with being courageous or committed. Well, one is that you think of Cato, the younger, when he killed himself as the Roman Empire began to emerge and the Roman Republic was collapsing. And Cato's killing of himself has become one of the grand examples of moral courage and a willingness to bear witness as something that he deeply opposed. Now, I think it's very interesting that so many of the people who were critical of me talking about the courage of my dear brother Aaron, that they don't understand the depths and scope of the suffering right now in Gaza. and too many of them actually are even indifferent to the genocide.

They're indifferent to the ethnic cleansing. They're indifferent to the apartheid-like conditions. And so I can understand them saying, well, I am promoting violence by acknowledging the tremendous courage in engage in a moral witness in which you kill yourself as a way of calling attention, not to yourself, but to suffering of precious Palestinians in Gaza. is in Gaza. That's what Aaron was doing. And the same way Cato was doing the same thing when they saw

Julius Caesar moving into the highest position and it was clear that the republic was coming to a close and the empire was being a staff. And there's a whole host of examples of people who bear witness by killing themselves. Let me ask you this, sir. Suicide. No, that's not the point. It's the cause that they're bearing witness to. And that's where my difference would so many of my deeply conservative and moderate Jewish brothers and sisters comes in. If they're indifferent to the suffering in Gaza, then it's going to be difficult for me to even have a conversation because for me, it's a state of emergency. For me, we need that sense of urgency.

These massacres are taking place before our very eyes. We ought to be on fire. We ought to be deeply concerned. Let me ask you this. Would you have said the same thing if this airman had, killed himself in this manner outside the Palestinian embassy in Washington, D.C., if there is one, whatever the central location is for Palestinians in Washington, the day after October the 7th, and reversed it and said, I'm doing this in response to the horror committed by Hamas on Jewish people in Israel.

Would you have felt the same way about what happened? Oh, absolutely. Murder is murder, though, brother. that when you kill innocent people, when you kill civilians, those are crimes against humanity. Now, I have a larger indictment of Israeli apartheid. I have a larger indictment of the Israeli occupation of Palestinians. But any time any organized group kills innocent people, especially innocent children, I will be in opposition. That's true for U.S. troops. That's true for British troops. That's true for the IDF. That's true for Iranian troops.

That's true for Chinese troops. That's true for Indian troops. Any organized army that kills innocent people, especially children, for me, is murder. I'm morally consistent in that regard. And that, therefore, if somebody kills themselves in order to call attention to the suffering of precious innocent people, especially precious innocent children, I am going to acknowledge that courage and say, It's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. And I don't mind being morally consistent

and therefore having people thoroughly misunderstand me because I do not look at the world through a narrow set of ideological lens. I try to stay in contact with the humanity of all innocent people and all children, no matter what color, Palestinian, Israeli, Ethiopian, Guatemalan. I fundamentally believe that a Palestinian baby has the same value as an Israeli baby.

The problem is you and I know that if Palestinians were doing this to Israelis, Biden, Harris, Blinken, all of these folks who are enabling this genocide, enabling these crimes against humanity, they would have a very different view because they're not morally consistent. They don't believe that a Palestinian life has the same value

as an Israeli. Well, I certainly do, but I certainly think, I certainly do, but I also believe that the purest definition of genocide is Hamas's view. of Jewish people in Israel. They want to get rid of all of them. They've made it very clear publicly

since October the 7th that they want to commit that kind of atrocity again and again and again and just get rid of all Jewish people in Israel. That actually is the purest definition of genocide, isn't it? Well, genocide has to do with intent as well as execution. Would you accept the Hamas are genocidal in their intent?

When Hamas was founded in 1988 as a response to a vicious Israeli occupation, They were wrong. They were calling for the forms of violent resistance that too often did include killing innocent folk because, of course, innocent Palestinians have been killed for 75 years by the IDF and others. They did change their charter.

There's been struggles within Hamas itself and the Palestinian people themselves are, how would you put it? The Palestinian people themselves are resisting with tremendous dignity. And Hamas has emerged as a major institutional vehicle. And that institutional vehicle, for me, does involve crimes against humanity when they kill innocent folk. Well, let's be clear.

Let's be clear. They've emerged as a terrorist organization committing acts of mass terrorism. I mean, that's what they are. Well, no, Hamas is a counter-terrorist group responding to the terrorism of the IDF and responding to the terrorism of the Israeli state. A counterterrorist group can commit war crimes, brother, but they didn't initiate it at all. If they're found at 1988 and the terrorism began in 1948 with the state of Israel,

that's 40 whole years. Let's keep in mind. I think it's a stretch to call it. I think it's a stretch. We want to undermine the PLO, undermine secular nationalism, promote fundamentalist Islam as a way of dividing Palestinians. That's why NATO.

and Yahoo allowed for Gaza, allowed for Hamas to gain to gain assets to the money from Qatar and others. Yeah, I agree. Keep the Palestinians divided and therefore not having to move to deal with the suffering of the Palestinian. Look, there are many things

that we would find agreement on about the way Palestinians have been treated for a very long time. It has been a completely unacceptable occupation. It should not attract... But hang on, hang on. Ficious. I know, let me finish.

But the idea that you categorize Hamas after October the 7th, counter-terrorists is ridiculous. They are terrorists. And they should be called what they are. Let me ask you to do. Do you think the IDF is terrorists when they kill innocent Palestinian? Do you believe yes or no? Yes or no, my brother.

Yes or no. Well, okay, I would ask you this. Yes or no. No, no. You're uncensored. You're uncensored, my brother. Yes or no. And I've been asked this question before.

I have actually tweeted in 2014, I tweeted, that what Israel was doing then was bordering on terrorists. I'm not afraid of using that analogy. Bordering on terror. The children are being killed, right? Yes, of course. There were children killed in October the 7th. I have serious misgivings about what's happening currently in Gaza, like most people.

But what I would say to you, if you were the head of the Israeli government on October the 7th, out of interest, what would your response have been to that horrendous terror attack? I'll tell you to answer to that question, but I don't know why you. you just can't say the IDF is terrorist killers and innocent people bordering on. It's wrong. No, you're uncensored. You're a free man. Tell the truth from your soul.

Let me tell you what I would do if I was in Israel. I would end the occupation. I would end the siege. I was saying I'm committed to Palestinian dignity. I'm committed to Palestinian equality. And we Palestinians and Israelis, we Jews and Palestinians, we're going to learn how to live together in the context of equality and dignity. We're going to have Jewish safety.

We're going to have Jewish security. That's the very end and aim of Israel. We'll never see an annihilation of Jews. We'll never see another massacre of Holy Cross of Jews, but we'll never see annihilation and massacre and vicious attacks on Palestinian either. That's what I would do. Not just as head of Israel.

That's what I'll do in the White House, brother. That's what I'll do in the White House. I'll explain to American people. I don't disagree. Why it is that Biden and Harris and others continue to enable this genocide, and then when they finally say ceasefire, they act like we ought to give them a moral prize or something after 30,000 precious people have already been killed. Yeah. Listen, there's a lot that you say that I agree with, just to be clear, okay? No, no, I hear you. I hear you.

Okay. I just want to read you what Ben Shapiro said about your tweet, though, about Aaron Bushnell. He said, our political environment is facilitating dangerous insanity. It is easy enough for people like Cornel West to celebrate the pseudo-heroism of disturbed people light to themselves on fire, but both the mentally disturbed in our society pay the price for such celebration. I mean, he has a point, doesn't it? You wouldn't want other people to go and set fire to themselves and kill themselves like he did, would you? Brother, I have deep libertarian sensibilities. I believe that people make choice and they have to take responsibilities.

They make decisions. They have to deal with the consequences. I do not promote people killing themselves. Not at all. But people do a number of different things. I would want to ask Brother Shapiro, he's talking about there's heroes in the Israeli defense forces, many of whom are killing innocent children.

Do I think that's sick? Yes, that is morally bankrupt. It is spiritually empty. It is ethically vacuous. I come right back at Shapiro. Your heroes happen to be engaged in and terror. activity against Palestinians. And you're going to say,

Aaron's not a hero. Aaron is a particular person who exercised a certain kind of witness and ended up taking the form of killing himself in order not to bring attention to himself, but to try to give some sense of urgency for a genocide taking place on your very eyes.

Do you believe Aaron Bushnell? That's what Brother Shapiro doesn't want to focus on. Do you believe... Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. I is indifference to the suffering of palisional. Palestinians in the form of attacking me. Let me ask you.

How cowardly can you get, my brother? Do you believe that Aaron Bushnell is a martyr? Well, martyr and witness really have the same root, as you know, in the Greek. And martyr means someone who pays an ultimate cost tied to a higher cause. I believe trying to bring attention to genocide, bring genocide to a close is a higher cause. and I believe that his actions was trying to bring attention to that higher cause. So yes, he is a martyr, absolutely. Dr. West, always good to talk to you on Uncensored.

But it's always a pleasant. They strong, my brother. Well, do you want to be now to debate all this? His legal scholar and author of war against the Jews, Professor Alan Dershowitz, and the leader of the Palestinian National Initiative, Mustafa Barguti. Well, welcome to both of you. Alan Dershowitz, your response there to Dr. West, in particular as categorization of our emotional...

as a martyr for setting himself on fire and taking his own life in protest of what he said was the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. If anybody is going to be a martyr, they should take their lives in protest of Hamas using precious children as human shields. Using a child as a human shield, putting a child a hospital, a school, a mosque over Hamas fighters and tunnels. and other weapons that are used to kill precious Jewish children is the major reason why so many civilians, particularly so many children and women have been killed. By the way, there is a lower ratio of civilians to combatants that have been killed in Gaza

than in any modern warfare, according to even the Hamas statistics. And if you compare them to the number of people, combatants who have been killed, the ratio was approximately 1,000, one and a half to one, which is much lower than three or four to one. The problem with that analogy is that when you actually get into the statistics, and let's accept, this is the Palestinian Health Authority, it's Hamas run, but the numbers have not been challenged as being wildly inaccurate by any other body.

I'm accepting them for the moment. So more children have been killed as a percentage of civilian deaths than any other type of conflict of this nature in modern times. And the reason for that is that Gaza has 2 million people, of which a million, just over half, are under 18. So it's become, de facto, a slaughter of children. That's the problem. Well, remember that Gaza, that Hamas counts anybody under 19 as a child.

Hamas recruits children between the ages of 13 and 19 to be terrorists. So many of the children and women... Alan, you can't buy a beer in many American states if you're under 21. So the definition of what is a child, I mean... But a 19-year-old is not a child. The 19-year-old with a gun pointed at an Israeli who was shot is not a child.

A woman who was throwing a bomb at Israelis is not a child. Remember, too, that my dear friend Cornell also said that the terrorism by Israel started in 19. In 1948, Israel was prepared to accept the two-state solution in a tiny little state, and they were attacked by all the Arab armies, and they fought in self-defense. But Cornel West revealed his bias against Israel by suggesting that Israel's terrorism began when it fought for its own independence, and essentially he's calling for the end of Israel if he's saying that its illegitimacy started in 1948.

And, you know, the idea that Israel is committing genocide, when it has actually done everything in its power to minimize civilian casualties in the face of Hamas doing everything in its power to maximize civilian casualties, Israel should do more, and the United States should pressure Israel to do more. And Israel has done more. The number of civilians killed in the last month is far less than in previous months because Israel is now in a position where it can take more refined action, more specific actions. Their criticism is valid, but calling Israel genocide, a word coined to describe the murder of six million innocent Jews in gas chambers,

is a form of Holocaust denial. And it's an absolute disgrace to use that term genocide against a country that's simply trying to defend itself from a recurrence of October 7th. what Israel is doing. It was what America has done, what Great Britain has done, what France has done, but only Israel is called genocide. Okay, let me just play a clip before I come to you, Mustafa Baguti. A clip from Kamala Harris, Vice President of the United States. This was overnight. Given the immense scale of suffering in Gaza, there must be an immediate ceasefire for at least the next six weeks. which is what is currently on the table. So Mustafa Barguti, we'll come to what she said there about a call for a ceasefire,

but in response to Alan Dershowitz, there's a real debate raging about whether what is happening in Gaza constitutes genocide. What is your view? Well, I am not surprised at all, Mr. Morgan, that Mr. Dershowitz, your guest, is defending the murderous, Israeli army

because he's used. He's famous for defending murderers in American courts. I think he's used to that. He's even famous for defending sex traffickers like Epstein. And of course he will defend those who are committing genocide.

Can we get to the point instead of having had hominemes about look at my daughter? I have to say, let me Mr. Barguti, I have to say, lawyers lawyers defend people who they often may personally have serious issues with. There's nothing unusual about a lawyer. I've defended Palestinians. I've defended

terrorists. I have defended people from a mass. I've defended, yeah. Yeah, you can't finish, but if you're going to go out. If you're going to attack him for defending bad people, we're going to be here all night. So stick to the question. I would even defend you. I would defend you. I would defend your right to make the lies that you've said. If you don't want me to speak, can you shut up so that I can speak? Shut up, please. I want to say that what you see in Gaza now

is an act of genocide because 12,000 children have been killed and these are not 19 years old. These are 5, 6 years old and 3 years old and 2 years old. These are children for God's sake.

I am against the killing of 30 Israeli children which happened on the 7th of October because they are children and civilians. But nothing in the world could justify because of the killing of 30 children, the killing of 12,000 other Palestinian children. That is unacceptable. You should look at the real figures. 30,000 Palestinian civilians have been killed, and 72,000 people have been injured

by the Israeli murderous army. This is 4.5% of the population. Hold on, hold on. I did not interrupt you. So shut up and let me finish. Four point five percent of the population. of the population of Gaza have been killed or injured. If that had happened in the United States of America, it would be talking about 12 million people killed or injured in four months of time. Is that acceptable? And mostly civilians, 70% are civilians.

More than that, Israel is killing Palestinians not only with this terrible genocide with their bombardment. They are killing Palestinians with starvation. This terrible siege, 50,000 pregnant women Palestinian women don't find a place to give birth in. 64,000 breastfeeding women cannot help their babies. And more than that, 700,000 people are now starving because Israel is preventing milk, flour, food

to the population of Gaza City and the north of Gaza. And more than that, they shoot the Palestinian hungry people when they are trying to get some food. They shoot them and killed them like they did two days ago. Mr. Boggur, you know, I can't ask you a question. 100 people and 860 others were injured. So my response to you, yes, this is genocide. These are three war crimes happening at the same time.

Genocide, collective punishment, and ethnic cleansing. At the same time, 70% of all homes were destroyed. All universities were destroyed. 30 hospitals out of 36 hospitals were destroyed. 347 of my colleague. My colleague's medical doctors and nurses. How about the fourth? Let me just ask Alan Dershowitz.

So what is that if it is not genocide? Alan Dershowitz, you can respond. But I want to also just quickly. I want to also mention again, Kamala Harris, calling for a six-week ceasefire. This is what is being negotiated. But Hamas can't even apparently say where the remaining hostages are, which seems to be a massive barrier to any potential deal here.

So first of all, your reaction to that and then respond to Mr. Barguuti. Well, I think the deal is on the table. Israel has accepted it. The Hamas has refused to give the names of the hostages. And if they would give the names of the hostages, we could have a deal. I want to ask Mr. Barguti if he wants to talk about another war crime. Are you prepared now to condemn Hamas for using children as human shields, for using women as human shields? Are you prepared now to condemn Hamas for using children as human shields? Are you prepared now to condemn that war crime?

They don't. They don't. You deny it. It's a lie. It's not true. They don't hide behind children. It's not true. They don't use any human shields. It's a lie.

You are repeating, I don't. You ask me, I will answer you. You don't want me to answer your question. It's a lie. There's no human shield. They never use the human shield ever, huh? No, it's a lie because it is, it is, let me answer. It is an Israeli propaganda.

And if you look carefully, and you are a famous and well-known lawyer, I don't doubt that. But I want you to look at the facts. For me, for me, Anna Frank, the little Jewish child who was killed by Nazis, is not different from Hind Rajab, who is a Palestinian child, six years old, who was stuck in a car with six of her family members killed by the Israeli tanks, screaming and asking for help. And instead of helping her, they bombarded the ambulance

that came to help her and killed her. You're not answering the question. Do they use human shields or not? Anna Frank and Hindraja are the same. No, no, no, no. What human shield?

She was in a car surrounded by tanks. I'm not talking about her. I'm not talking about that. For me, she's a victim of thousands of children. I'm not, I'm not disputing that. You're changing the subject. You're changing the subject.

No, no. Mr. Barguerite, okay, let me ask a question. Are you prepared to give me a question? Mr. Barguti, you say that Hamas never used civilians as human shields. In which case, why do they build this labyrinth of tunnels around schools and hospitals and all the places where civilians are going to be? Why would they do that? No, the question is not like that.

But that's my question is why Israel continued. My question. Which is only... Wait, wait, wait. The Gaza is only... Wait a minute. Gaza is 140 square miles. With 3... with 2.3 million people.

Where should people go? Why do they... Why does... Hang on, you're avoiding my question. Besides the fact that it was occupied for such a long time. Let me repeat the question. Where would they go? Let me repeat.

Let me repeat my question. With Israel strikes that are killing them around the clock. Don't shout over me. I mean, you're asking them... I'm asking me a question. I'm asking you why... Ask the question. Please let me ask the question again.

If Hamas does not want to use civilians as human shields, why do they build tunnels around schools and hospitals? First of all, you are again, Mr. Morgan, you are again repeating Israeli propaganda. It's not propaganda. They claim that tunnels were under hospitals. Wait, wait, let me finish. You ask the question, let me answer.

It's not true what they say. And yes, they built tunnels to hide from Israeli air strikes. Of course, like Vietnamese built tunnels to hide from American bombardment in Vietnam. It's the same. But to say that they are taking people and civilians as hostages as shields is not true. Wait a minute. I see Hamas fighters on Al Jazeera network attacking Israeli tanks with very little weapons. I don't see them hiding behind the people.

I have proof that I'd like you to listen to. I have, this is one way. Let Alan Dershowitz speak, please, Mr. Barguti. Mr. Barguti, let Alan Dershowitz respond. Let Alan Dershowitz respond. Okay. Here is in my book, the war against the Jews in it. I quote directly, I quote directly from a leader of Hamas praising the use of human shields.

He says, we regard our women and our children as martyrs. We use them as human shields. This is Hamas bragging about the use of human shields, bragging why they will not allow civilians. It's in the book. Can you tell me the name of this person? I will send it to you. I can't find it the second.

Tell me the name. And not only that, I will send it to you and I will give you a copy of the book. You can't find the name because it doesn't exist. And that's why Hamas doesn't allow civilians into the tunnels. Into the tunnels. If you want to wait a few minutes, go off the air. I will find out the name and I will give it to you. It will be a familiar name.

Alan Dershowitz. Let me ask. Let me ask you a question, Alan Dershowitz. This idea of a six-week ceasefire, I think most of the world now wants Israel to stop bombing Gaza. Do you agree that it's time for a proper ceasefire, which allows

proper humanitarian aid to get in? And do you think this has now gone on long enough? I think, first of all, humanitarian aid should be allowed in under all circumstances. All the opening should be allowed. All humanitarian aid should come in. Second, I agree with the

American and British plan for a six-week ceasefire, coupled with the release of hostages, naming all the hostages and perhaps moving toward a longer ceasefire. I'm not in favor of continuing the war unless it has to be done. But Hamas has to be disabled. It cannot be allowed to return. That's also part of American policy.

That's also what Kamala Harris said. And I agree with what she said generally, but it has to be part of a return of hostages, and it has to be a mutual ceasefire. Yesterday it was announced by Islamic Jihad that Ramadan will be a return of hostages, but it has to be a mutual Yesterday it was announced by Islamic jihad that Ramadan will be the bloodiest month, that there will be more terrorist attacks during Ramadan. You can't have a ceasefire on one side, which happened. October 6th there was a ceasefire on one side.

And Hamas violated. Okay, let me bring it. If there is a genuine peaceful ceasefire on both sides, then I could agree with that. Mr. Bar-Gouti, two questions for you to finish here. One is, do you agree that Hamas should hand over all the hostages? first and secondly do you agree that there can be no future for palestinians with hamas in charge well first of all yes i will answer your questions but let me tell you something please answer my questions rather than do something else they keep repeating no no no no let me

let me finish mr just answer my questions please they keep repeating statements that Palestinians said that a Palestinian said that but the reality is that it is the israelis who are doing the crimes who is killing, who are killing the police. Well, actually, Hamas committed, hang on. The response to your question. Hamas committed. Hang on, hang on.

Let me respond. Hamas committed. Let me just respond to that. Hamas committed. Let me just finish. You wanted to make a point. I'm making a point. Let me answer first to your question.

Hamas committed one of the worst terror attacks in history. And when they did it, they brazenly boasted about it on their phones and videos and put them out to the world. They were so happy and proud of what they've done. done. So let's not be under any illusion about what Hamas are about. But those two questions to end, please. Should the hostages all be released? Should the hostages all be released immediately? And secondly, should Hamas stay in power? First of all, you keep repeating Israeli propaganda. Just answer my questions, Mr. Barguzzi.

You accuse Palestinians of being terrorist. Let me answer. Let me answer. Hamas a terrorist. George Washington was accused of being a terrorist because he fought for the independence of the United States. Nelson Mandela was put on American terrorist list for a very long time. Martin Luther King was accused by racist of being a terrorist. Shane Fein Party, which struggled for the liberation of Ireland. Can you answer my question? We're also accused of being terrorist.

But nevertheless, I'll answer your questions. Yes, all Israeli prisoners must be released in exchange of all Palestinian prisoners who should be released, including a relative of mine that I told you about before, who has been in Israeli jail for 42 years, including hundreds of Palestinians today, including 250 children that were kidnapped by the Israeli hostages. All of them have to be released. The Israeli hostages, just to be clear,

the Israeli hostages are hostages not prisoners, just to be clear. Go on. No, they are prisoners of war because they are fighting in Gaza. They kidnapped hostages. They were caught while they were an arrearer. I agree with you that civilians are not prisoners, that's for sure. Right. But Israeli soldiers are prisoners.

All those civilians were innocent civilians and are kidnapped hostages. Yes. The second question about Hamas. Yes. You keep answering me. I don't know who's answering. No, I want you to answer that question. You should ask questions and not give answers, Mr. Morgan. Should Hamas stay in power?

No, give me the right to answer your question. If you answer my questions, I would be really happy. They declared that. Hamas does not want to stay in power, but you have to understand. We the Palestinians will struggle in every possible mean to be free from occupation, from apartheid, from oppression. It's the right of the people who are oppressed to struggle for their freedom. It was an American right for those who struggled against British colonialism. It was the right of Martin Luther King to free African Americans.

It was the right of Nelson Mandela who struggled to end up. apartheid in South Africa. Okay. We need to be free from Israel. Let Hamas follow Martin Luther King. And ethnic leaders. Let Hamas follow Martin Luther King's pass and there will be peace. If Hamas follows Martin Luther King's past,

I am following him, and you know, I am following him like I do. I am following Martin Luther King's best strategy. There will be peace. As a leader of Israel once said, If Israel, if Hamas were to lay down its arms, arms, there would be peace. If Israel were to lay down its arms, there would be the kind of genocide that we saw begun on October 7th. Israel wants peace. They always wanted it since 1948.

No, Israel is the right of self-defense, as the American government has said. Okay, I'm not about it to 48 again. We've run out of time. I'm sorry. Mr. Boggerti. No, no, no, no, one minute. No, no, we've run out of time. Allow me to say, to respond to what he said. I will get you the name. I will get you the name of the I will get you both back to debate the history of this conflict. Israel never accepted the partition plan. Okay.

You should go and read history properly. Mr. Barguzzi, we will debate the history. These are not my words. We will debate the history. This is what Avish Lime, the Israeli historian reported. We will debate the history another time. He said he digged very deep and couldn't find a single document.

We've run out of time. I have to leave you there. I'm sorry. I have the name. I will give it to you. I don't have an index in this book. I will give you the name. I will give you the exact quote, and you will then have to apologize.

Is that okay? You'll have to check whether he is really Hamas or not. I have to apologize because the studio is about to be taking. Because Hamas doesn't ever use human shields. The studio doesn't use human shields. You're willing to rest your credibility on the claim that Hamas never uses human shields and that everybody in the world is wrong,

including the United Nations. I have to do a time out there. using human shields. Fine. I'm happy to end this debate on your credibility that Hamas doesn't use human shields. Then we will end it on that debate. Mustafa Barguti, thank you very much. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate you both very much.

You're coming on unscensored as always. That's it for us. Thank you.