Piers Morgan Uncensored - Is Israel Committing Genocide?

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

Genocide. Not a word to be used lightly. In recent months, the term has been levelled at Israel for its treatment of the war in Gaza.  The Israeli government has repeatedly denounced the accusation despite the ICJ ruling in January that it was 'plausible' that genocide could be taking place. Over 32,000 Palestinians - mostly children - are believed to have been killed since the horrific attack on October 7th and today, a new report from the United Nations says there are 'reasonable grounds' that Israel has carried out acts of Genocide in Gaza. American-Israeli commentator, Emily Schrader & journalist and filmmaker Abby Martin join Piers to debate Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Do you think they're an armed resistance group trying to fight for the lip? Do you think Israel is a terrorist organization? Genocidal intent. This is usually one of the hardest things to prove in a case of genocide. Not the case in Israel's genocide in Gaza. So you're happy to believe those numbers? Of course I'm happy to believe those numbers. Israel needs to be held accountable and stopped immediately

because it's the gravest crime against humanity that a state can commit. Israel isn't interested in occupying Gaza in any sort of permanent way that is not something we want. I'm not a nect-and-law spokesperson. Well, he should be tried at the head. That's a different question. I mean, he's committing genocide. Different question. But you say you can't interfere in Palestinian politics,

but you're very prepared to interfere in Israeli politics. Genocide, not a word to be used lightly. In recent months, the term which means to deliberately kill people from a particular national ethnic group with the aim of destroying said national group has been leveled to Israel for its treatment of the war in Gaza. The Israeli government has repeatedly denounced the accusation despite the ICJ ruling in January that it was plausible, that genocide could be taking place.

Over 32,000 Palestinians, mostly children, are believed to have been killed since a horrific attack on October the 7th. A new report from the United Nations says there are reasonable grounds that Israel has carried out acts of genocide in Gaza. This debate will rage on long after this war is over, as will whether or not Netanyahu

and the Israeli government need to be held to account for their actions. Strong voices and opinions rage on both sides, none more fervent than those of my next two guests. joined by the American-Israeli commentator, Emily Schrader, and a journalist and filmmaker Abbe Martin. Well, welcome to both of you. Abit Martin, let me start with you. To me, genocide would mean the wholesale destruction of a people because of their ethnicity. That's how I've always understood genocide to me. There is a internationally recognized five-point guide to what is genocide.

It says killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm. to members of the group, deliberately inflicting on the group, conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in the whole or part, imposing measures intended to prevent bursts within the group, forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. By that definition, do you believe that what's happened in Gaza constitutes genocide? I do, and I think that the fact that this debate is raging on shows that what Israel is doing is egregious enough,

the fact that people are actually having a debate on whether or not it is genocide. Like you said, the International Court of Justice has agreed that there's a plausible case for genocide. I think that you just clearly articulated several factors that Israel is, in fact, carrying out. The mental, bodily harm and carrying about conditions to destroy a group of people. Clearly, the complete siege on Gaza, the elimination or the prevention, rather, of water, food, electricity, the prevention of aid, widespread preventable illnesses, killing people. Now we see 2 million people on the brink of starvation. Clearly these are all intended to destroy a group of people.

When you compound that with the indiscriminate bombing in the most densely populated places on Earth, I would absolutely constitute that as genocidal killing. And then peers compound that with the fact that there's genocidal intent. This is usually one of the hardest things to prove in a case of genocide. not the case in Israel's genocide in Gaza. We have five pages just in the ICJ ruling that clearly lay out the explicit intent to carry out genocide.

And I'll just point to two. The Israeli president, who said shortly after October 7th, that no civilian in Gaza is innocent and that they should have overthrown Hamas. And because they didn't, they are essentially worth killing. And then you have the defense minister

shortly after October 7th, that these are human animals, and we need to act accordingly as he announced the complete siege of Gaza. So taking all that into account, I would absolutely constitute what is happening is genocide. And Israel needs to be held accountable and stopped immediately because it's the gravest crime against humanity that a state can commit. Okay. Emily Schroeder, I mean, there's no doubt that if you study the direct quotes from some members of Netanyahu's cabinet,

they are certainly speaking in a genocidal way. There's no question. There's enough of that being said since October the 7th. There's also a fact. I actually would dispute that I actually take issue with some of the comments that she made. For example, when we're talking about human animals, it was specific in the context.

And if you understand Hebrew, you know that the context of this was speaking specifically about Hamas terrorists, who I would agree with that description. Of course, not all Palestinians are human animals. And Palestinian civilians, there are many innocent people. However, as President Herzog said, it is also true that there is a certain degree of complicity with many of the people of Gaza.

Now, does that mean that they deserve to die, as she stated? No, of course not. But it's not the same thing as being innocent either. But that would imply that there are no innocent people in the Palestinian side? I don't think that it's true that there's no innocent people. Isn't that what you just affectively say? I think that there is a certain degree of complicity

with many of the population. As we see in the polls, according to their polls, a Palestinian-conduct poll. How many? How many? Over 70% of the people in Gaza support the actions of October 7th. I wish it wasn't the case. But Emily, you're just using that, you're just using that poll, you're using that poll to paint all civilians as guilty. Do you realize that? I am absolutely not. I literally stated the opposite. Yes, you are.

You're saying that because Palestinian- I said 70%. Emily? Of course there are innocent Palestinians. So what does that mean? But many- You're rationalizing collective punishment and starvation of two million people. One million kids, that's what you're rationalizing by saying that 70% agree with the actions of October. trucks of humanitarian aid have entered Gaza. Some of them that are being stopped right now on the border are actually being prevented from entering by Egypt, not by Israel. Israel has inspected them and approved them. Furthermore, the reason that aid isn't being distributed properly

isn't because of Israel. It's because of Hamas, who has been taking the aid, shooting Palestinian civilians inside of Gaza. And this is according to Palestinian statements on social media in Arabic who have been speaking about this, and then taking that aid and selling it at a double, triple, quadruple the prices of what would be the regular market for those items. So you cannot place this all in Israel.

But if you say that 70%... Emily. How can a sec, Abby? 70% of people in Palestine are of this view. 50% of that population are under 18. They're children. So are you including large numbers of children in your assessment that Palestinians all believe this way?

I don't believe that the statistics of that poll, how they conducted it, included children. However, I don't know. So I would have to investigate that further. If it didn't include children, then that doesn't include half the people in Gaza? According to whose statistics, according to the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is controlled by Hamas? Half the population... Because even this 30,000 number is coming from Hamas. I realize that, but it hasn't been disputed by other agencies.

And historically, the Hamas figures through the Palestinian Health Authority had been broadly proven to be accurate over time, which... 30,000 casualties and they're claiming that none of them are combatants. How is that accurate? It doesn't even make sense. That's not the number I'm talking about. The number I'm talking about is if half the population of Gaza is under 18, then saying the 70% of the people in Gaza have a view would have to include a lot of children, right?

And if you don't include the children, you don't include half the population. Well, then you're talking about a narrow number of people, comparative. Sure, but you also have to consider the fact that Hamas has actively recruited. and indoctrinating youth with this very extremist jihadist ideology. And it's child abuse. It's an unfortunate reality that Palestinian children are dealing with there. Why were killing loads, why were killing 12, 13,000 innocent children?

Whatever the exact number is, is superfluous to the general proportionate effect that so many kids have been killed. I don't agree with these numbers. Well, how many do you think have been killed? We don't know. We do not know at this point. You're very happy on the Israel side.

Consider the fact that there are many, how many? But there are many of them between the ages of 14 to 17 who are members of Hamas. How many Hamas terrorists have been killed? You don't know, at least 9,000 though. So you're happy to believe those numbers? How many people believe those numbers? You're happy to believe those numbers? Of course I'm happy to believe those numbers.

Because Israel is a democratic country with a rule of law, and they hold people accountable when they violate those laws. Right. See, I think the problem with questioning the numbers from the Palestinian Health Authority is that most other agencies, independent agencies broadly agree that these numbers are about right. And if they're right, then 12,000, 13,000 children have been killed. And I would argue that it's very hard to see how the radicalization issue

that the Israelis talk about will not be exacerbated by killing 13,000 innocent kids. Right. And can I just address some of the points she made because they're all just egregious lies? I mean, she's a paid propagandist for the state of Israel. I think that she gets out of the way. Egypt, Emily, Emily. Or defending the Chinese Communist Party? You know what? Emily?

Emily, let me speak. Emily, Emily, let me speak. Emily, Emily, let me speak. Let me speak. Emily, let me speak. You just spoke just flagrant lies for the last minute. When I was on this show 10 years ago, I was actually speaking out against RT on Russia today. Can you say the same?

I'm a completely independent journalist. You are literally a paid propagandist for the Israeli military. You just had the audacity to sit down with an Israeli military. from the Israeli military and I would be happy to sue you over. Oh, so you just were working for free? You literally said that you worked for the Ministry of Strategic Affairs that you've worked with Stand with us, which is an appendage of the Israeli government. Let me address the things that you just threw out there, which are lies.

Yes, of course, they received grants from the Knesset. No, they don't. Emily, that is absolutely false. Egypt, Israel has, look it up on, look it up on the internet. Emily, I'm not sure why you're lying again, but this is what you guys do. You deflect, you lie, you smear. Emily, we can't just keep speaking over each other the entire time. It's not legal.

Stop lying, Abby. Please let me speak. Israel has bragged the fact that Egypt just follows their orders. So we know that the aid is being prevented not only by fanatical Israelis who are blocking the aid trucks proudly, but from Israel themselves, Emily, and we know that almost as many civilians have been shot by Israeli forces just trying to scavenge for aid and food, then civilians have died on October 7. That is blatantly false. This is regular routine massacres, routine massacres that are happening of just desperate starving Palestinians that are amassing to seek food.

Is there anything that is more depraved than that? That's absolutely false. Earlier this week, seven million seeking food. You can't just keep saying Hamas. Seven million pounds in one day. Let me try. Let me try if I can. 500 trucks per day should be getting in.

500 trucks per day. Let me come if I can, bring it back to the debate, which is about the genocide. On March of 26th, 2024, UN Human Rights Report called for Israel to be placed under an arms embargo on the grounds that has carried out acts of genocide in Gaza. Francesca Albanese of the UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights in the Palestinian Territory said in her report, there were reasonable grounds to believe that Israel was carrying out three of the five acts, which I named earlier, defined as genocide. And she said these were killing Palestinians, causing them seriously bodily or mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions. of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the population in whole or in part. So to that point, Emily, just forget the ad hominem stuff for a moment.

On this, you've got the UN, you've got the ICJ, you've got increasingly the Americans, actually, trying to distance themselves from what's happening here, a growing sense that there is, if not full-blown genocide, a version of genocide happening here that meets quite a few criteria. I mean, I think the definition of genocide requires intent to destroy a nation. And that is not what we're seeing. It's not what we've seen since day one. You have to remember the fact that this war was not started by Israel.

Gaza's destroyed Emily. He said he would be happy to drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza. That would have been the destruction of the population. Well, there are plenty of stupid comments from many Israeli politicians that I don't agree with. But this is not the same thing. We did not start this war. This is not a war we wanted. It is not a war we started.

I've made that point really clear. Let me finish. Israel does have the ability to commit genocide and they are not. Let me just. Why would we send 17,000 trucks to aid? That's such an abuser. Crazy thing to say. You have a gun to the head of Palestinian saying we could commit genocide.

Hang on, don't all talk over each other. I want to finish my point about the, the cabinet member who said that was quite crystal clear in his genocidal intent. He thought it would be fine to drop a bomb, a nuclear bomb on Gaza. You said earlier that nobody on the cabinet, nobody under Netanyahu from the start of his war, had ever espoused any genocidal thoughts or statements. He did that, yeah. I didn't say that no one in the government has said that. I said that the quotes she specifically mentioned are inaccurate.

But what about the guy who got fired specifically for saying that about a dropping an ugly bomb? He should have been fired. So do you accept there have been people with that mindset on the cabinet in Israel? There are people who have made all kinds of egregious statements on both sides. And I can give you a few examples of genocidal intent if you want from the other side. Because that's really the only side that has proven genocidal intent. We can come to that.

come to that. But on that point, do you accept then that there are people in Israeli government, albeit he was fired for it, who have espoused genocidal sentiment? They have. I don't know of anyone who is in the current Israeli government that would support

any form of genocide. Has anyone ever, of course, people have on both sides. Okay, Abby. Five pages. Five pages of people including social media posts of celebrities, including some of the people I know, that doesn't That doesn't qualify as a legitimate intent to carry out a genocide. They included one from a comedian on there as well.

Not to mention the fact that if we talk about the illegitimacy. It's completely decimated. Every cultural aspect of life in Gaza has been completely obliterated to make it uninhabitable and unsurvivable for future generations there. That is hard to... That is genocidal, Emily. That is hard to argue. When you look at what's happened in northern Gaza in particular,

it's pretty much been leveled. I've been there. I've seen it with my own eyes. Why would anyone expect regular Palestinians to be able to go back to homes that don't exist? Where are they going to go? Many of them already have started going back and they need to reconstruct Gaza the same way that they needed to reconstruct Gaza after 2021.

But they're going to have to do so together with partners, whether it's Israel, the United States or other Arab nations, in a post-Hamas reality. And if we're talking about the problem in Gaza and how the Palestinians are suffering, you cannot remove Hamas from this equation. Hamas is the group that has been persecuting the Palestinian people as well.

Well, that is true, Abby. I don't think there's any question. I don't think there's any question Hamas has been suppressing and oppressing its own people. I think that they have become increasingly vocal in their desire to cause maximum damage to Israel and to Jewish people. They've said since October the 7th through their official spokesman that they will do this again and again. again. That actually is genocidal rhetoric. If you're pledging to destroy a people in as many numbers as you can, as often as you can, that is a form of genocide, isn't it? Look, what precipitated even the origin of Hamas? Hamas didn't just grow out of thin air. I mean, it was precipitated

by brutal decades of brutal occupation and ethnic cleansing. Yeah, but what about my question? Whether or not Hamas is genocidal in its intent, I disagree. And Emily saying, Look, Hamas is reacting. They're an armed resistance group trying to fight for the military. I'm not justifying anything that they've done. The United States also called Nelson Mandela in the A&C, a terrorist organization. I think they're an armed resistance group trying to fight for the liberation of Palestine. Do you think they're terrorist organization?

Do you think Israel is a terrorist organization? Of course not. Do you think Israel is a terrorist organization? Can you answer my question? Do you think Hamas is a terrorist organization? I already did. I already did. Let me explain something to you. Do you think that the acts committed on October 7th were legitimate?

You think that gang rape, that mass rape, sexual violence is a method of war? Hang on. Hang on. Look. Do you think October 6, 5th, 4, 8, 9, 10th? Let me ask you the question which has made me infamous, famous, whatever you want to do. But do you condemn Hamas for what they did on October the 7th? I'm not going to sit here and give an obligatory condemnation of Hamas. It was a terrorist attack of appalling magnitude. What I think...

Surely on pure humanity grounds. Pears, listen. You cannot watch the devastating murder of 1,200 people and not say it was a despicable terror act and condemn the people who did it. Look, look, listen, I'm not going to give an obligatory condemnation of Hamas. What I will do is condemn the policies that precipitate violence. What I will do is condemn the roots of the violence

because inevitably you will have blowback when you deny millions of people of basic human rights. When they are living under. brutal medieval siege and barbaric military occupation, a fascist military occupation in the West Bank. Hamas doesn't govern the West Bank. Look at what Israel has done in the West Bank since October 7th. This isn't about Hamas. This is not about Hamas. I condemn what will begettes inevitably. I'm not going to sit here and condemn Hamas. The entire war, this entire war has been because of what Hamas did in October the 7th. You could go back in history. You can go back in

history and you can find arguments on both sides in the last 70 years. I've had the arguments many times. No, no, no, no. But you cannot dispute that this. What you're doing is... What are I doing? What you're doing is conflating and pretending like there are two equal sides. Oh, they've just been fighting for decades.

There's always reasons on both sides to start the violence. No, that's not true. There's one side that's an occupying, colonizing force that continuously and violently expels and subjugates and brutalizes and terrorizes the other side. They are living under the boot of Israeli authorities, whether you're in Gaza and occupied completely militarily by the outside or whether you're living under a fascist military dictatorship in the West Bank. So do you do, if you believe, okay, so if you believe, okay,

that is the root of the violence. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this, have it. All right, I hear you. Let me ask you this. If you believe then that Hamas are a armed resistance, as you put it, and they have, presumably then, you believe what they did in October the 7th was justified. Do you?

I didn't say that. No, absolutely. I'm not sitting here justifying anything. Isn't the logical extension of your argument? If you believe they're an armed resistance and they are doing what they're doing because they are responding to acts of terror by another side, surely you would say that what they did was justified.

Or if it's not justified, what is it? You either condemn it or you think it's justified. I don't think you can sit in the middle, can it? Look, I don't need to sit here and give a condemnation of Hamas. I can explain why Hamas, exists, I don't have to support what they did. I don't have to justify or rationalize it. Yes.

As a person who studies history, is complicity-abby. You can sit as a person who studies history. Emily, Emily, you're doing the exact same thing and you're projecting it on me. OK, so do you condemn the actions of Israel for killing 13,000 children? I don't accept that 13,000 children have been killed. That hasn't anything that isn't anything that's been verified.

This is the problem. But it depends on the context of what's happening. Do I condemn certain actions of the state of Israel? Absolutely. Do I think Israel is always right? Of course not. This is why Palestinians have to shut up to get kids on camera. Do I think everything Israel has done even in this war is correct?

No. There's no problem with saying that. What has been wrong? What have they done is wrong? I already said the same thing about Hamas, I already said the same thing about Hamas. Emily, tell me what Israel's done that's wrong in your eyes. I think that there should have been a priority from the beginning

in order to plan a safe evacuation route before they, implemented a military plan. I think that everything has been done too late. Okay, Abby, what would you say Hamas have done wrong? Look, again, I'm not going to sit up here. I don't even know really what happened. You can't find anything to condemn rape. You can't find anything to say. All the lies that have been perpetrated. Look, Hamas killing civilians, I'm sure atrocities were committed on both sides. On October 7th, I'm sure that many atrocities were killed?

I don't know how many civilians were killed by Israel. Emily, Emily, I can't even hear myself talk because you just can't stop talking. Let Abby speak. There's so many lies that were put out by Israeli authorities that it's really hard to parse through. Look, I mean, we don't know how many civilians were killed in the crossfire by Israeli soldiers

enlisting the Hannibal Directive. So look, the mass rape would be heading babies, the ripping the babies out of pregnant women's stomachs. I mean, all of these things are such a great just lies. That I really just can't sit up here and condemn things that I don't even know what happened or not. What about the atrocities which Hamas recorded and filmed themselves and then posted to the world to brazenly boast about what they were doing?

What about that? Look, nothing that Hamas did on October 7th compares to what Israel has done in response. No, no, I'm asking you a direct question about the fact that they boasted about the mass murder they were committing. But the thing is, you guys just make it all about October 7. And that's what I'm saying. it all pales in comparison. But if you can't condemn anything Hamas has done. I already said.

You haven't condemned them. Killing civilians is wrong. So what Hamas did in October 7th was wrong? What does that make what his bill has done? Hang on. I'm trying to unpick your argument. So if it's wrong to kill civilians, were Hamas wrong to do what they did in October the 7th

given how many civilians were brutally murdered? Are you doing the same thing to Emily? And if not, why? Just asking you think it was wrong. you not sitting her and picking it was wrong? Is it wrong to kill 13,000 children? Why can't you ask her a simple question? Is it wrong to kill 100?

I already said it. I already said it. Was it wrong? I'm not going to sit here. You're basically comparing Hamas to Israel. No, I'm not comparing anything. You said just now. Yes, you are. Unless I'm mistaken, you just said to me that the killing of innocent civilians is wrong.

I then asked you, fairly self-evidently, I think, the question. in that case, given that Hamas showed us on tape them killing civilians, innocent civilians on October the 7th, do you accept that was wrong? Yes or no? You saw the tape? Yes. They showed us.

You saw the tape of them killing innocent civilians? Yes, they literally broadcast it to the world. Yes, we all did. And so do Israeli soldiers in a craved fashion. It's like watching... Forget Israel for a moment. It's like watching Nazis. If it's wrong to...

to kill innocent civilians, Abby. On social media. If it's wrong to kill innocent civilians, I'll ask you one more time. You haven't got to answer. Up to you. But viewers are watching this, and they know you haven't answered. You think it's wrong to kill innocent civilians. I already answered.

I think it's wrong to kill innocent civilians. So what Hamas did was wrong? She's not going to answer. Well, I let her answer if she wants to. Last time, I'm going to ask it. I don't. Look, I already told you I'm not going to sit here and condemn what Hamas did. I understand why.

I don't have to agree with what Hamas did, right? To understand why things happened. That wasn't my question. I just asked you whether the mass murder perpetrated was wrong. To understand why there's blowback for horrific policies of apartheid and ethnic cleansing. There's obviously inevitably going to be blowback

and violence of those policies. Yes, absolutely it was brought back. But was it wrong? Was it wrong? I'm not, look, I don't know how much you want to just go around the mulberry bush like this. I think it's a fairly straightforward question. I don't see how anyone can come on a show like this.

What Israel is doing is wrong. Can you take part of the debate like this and say killing innocent civilians is wrong? But I'm not going to tell you what Hamas in October 7th was wrong. It makes no sense, Abby. No sense. I'm not going to sit here and condemn Hamas. I'm not going to do the obligatory ritual. I hear you.

Ritual that everyone is browbeaten into doing. I'm just not going to do it, peers. I mean, what Israel is doing right now is committing genocide. I think your denial, I think your denial, that what they're, did was a heinous act of terrorism is actually in its way as bad. I'm about to finish my sentence. I said atrocities were committed. Yeah.

And I think atrocities are wrong and killing innocent civilians are rough. So Hamas were wrong to do it. Again, your browbeating me into trying to say, Hamas was wrong, this was a horrific terrorist attack. I already answered you. I think your failure to say that Hamas did something wrong is terrible. I think Emily's failure to accept that 12, 13,000 children have been killed. Is he also terrible?

Right? I think that the denial going on on both sides here, which I hear, is frankly appalling. First of all, I'm not denying. I'm saying that we don't have the evidence yet of what the numbers are and we don't know what the breakdown is. We don't know yet. We do. But you also have to remember the fact that what Israel is targeting.

As I said to you, Emily, the Palestinian Health Authority numbers historically have turned out to be proven to be pretty accurate. The Palestinian Authority, the Ministry of Health has been instructed explicitly by Hamas not to report combatants. It's not my point. The numbers are not accurate and they cannot be trusted. As I've just said to you, historically, if you go and check historically, the Palestinian Health Authority run by Hamas, their numbers have turned out to be broadly accurate. That is why they are being treated now as reasonably accurate numbers. There can be no doubt from the footage we've seen from the hospitals of endless children,

from the bombsites, endless children being killed, that there are thousands of children being killed. To try and deny that, to try and pick up. I'm not denying the children are being killed. I'm not denying that there have been many casualties. I'm saying we don't know the numbers yet. And we cannot state definitively, especially if the source is Hamas, that 13,000 children have been killed.

You have actually no idea that 9,000 Hamas terrorists have been killed. According to IDF intelligence, yeah, we do. So you believe IDF intelligence, but you won't believe the other side numbers on victim? Absolutely. I would believe the IDF over a U.S. and UK does a... Even if other... that has been proven to lie about this. Even if other independent agencies

who corroborated the Palestinian Health Authority numbers, you still won't believe that. What independent agencies? The United Nations? Yeah. This is not independent, as has been proven by this war itself. And other aid agencies. Members of UNR are actually active terrorists. Some of them took part in the October 7th massacre.

Right. Here's my problem with this debate. There's no evidence. Here's my problem with the debate for both of you. There is a level of denial on both sides, which I think people in the middle who don't have a horse in the race. who are looking at this from afar,

they're aghast at the level of self-denial. They cannot believe, Abby, that you're not prepared to say what Hamas did was wrong. And they cannot believe, Emily, that on your side, you simply won't accept the obvious fact that thousands and thousands of children are being... I didn't say that. Thousands of people are dying.

But we do not know the numbers. And no, I'm not going to accept the numbers from Hamas. Right. So you don't have to then be accountable for the deaths of so many children. I disagree. I think Israel should be accountable. I don't know what the number is, therefore.

I can't pass comment. I don't agree with that. I think Israel needs to exercise as much caution as possible. Should they kill fewer children? If possible, of course. Of course. Do you accept they've killed too many children?

How would you... I don't think that... Yes, first of all, but I also think... You do? Well, that's... See, that's important to know that many of these casualties are a result of being used as human shields. Actually, what you just said is an important mission.

Okay, hold on. Can we talk about the human shield thing really quickly? But that's an important omission, actually, by Emily. She thinks Israel has killed too many children. I think that is a healthy moment in this debate. Well, I don't think any children should be killed. Fine. You just said you think they're killing too many children.

One is too many. Fine, but it's not laughable, is it? It's terrible. Right. So I just think that until you can admit on both sides, what's actually going on that we can all see with our own eyes, I think you don't get anywhere with this debate. Let me ask you this.

We talk about genocide, and we talk about how this all plays out at the end. How does this end, Abby? I mean, how do you actually get peace when, We can't even have a debate without people screaming at each other. But we now know that a lot of Gaza's been leveled. I don't know if they can go back and live there. Garzans. I don't know how many more are going to get killed

if Israel attacks the Rafah refugee camp in his efforts to finish off a mass. I don't know these answers. What I do know is I find it very, very implausible that at the end of this, it simply all gets sorted out quite quickly and the Garzans go back to their destroyed homes. It all gets rebuilt and they'll live happily ever after. So how does it end?

Right. I mean, well, no construction material has been allowed in for quite some time, so there is no rebuilding effort that's possible, especially when you've decimated the entire strip, demolished every aspect of civilian life, surgically striking doctors alongside their entire families, killing over 100 journalists, many and targeted assassinations alongside their entire families. I mean, really the best and brightest in Palestinian society in Gaza has been destroyed. IDF soldiers posting on Tic Tac that they're just blowing up masts. because they're bored, looting and pillaging women's lingerie. I mean, it really is depraved levels of sadism going on here. How does it end a negotiated settlement immediately? I think that what Hamas is offering is not beyond the pale. It would be easy for Israel to comply with the demands. If we look at the five-day truce that happened several months back, the Palestinian hostages that Israel has been keeping,

they're not called hostages, but they should be, because they're just political prisoners that are languishing in military detention. the vast majority of those political prisoners were not charged with anything. 30 of them were kids for throwing stones. So this is the kind of thing that we're talking about. When Hamas says release our hostages,

that's who they're talking about. When they say the removal of Israeli troops from Gaza, I don't see how that couldn't be complied with. I mean, look, there should be a negotiated settlement. If you want the hostages back today, that could happen. And that's why there's thousands of Israelis protesting in this street. Well, Hamas have just rejected. the latest peace deal offering?

Well, okay, is it a permanent ceasefire? Because if you're just talking about a six-week ceasefire, well, then, yeah. I mean, Israel's saying they're just going to continue the genocide after six weeks. How is that something that's a concession for Israel? Israel's won at the end. Let me go back to Emily.

Let me ask you, do you think Hamas should stay in power at the end of this? Look, I'm, whatever the Palestinians want, that's what they will do. I think, look, I'm not going to say, I'm not going to speak on behalf of the Palestinians of who their leadership should be. What I will say is Hamas isn't actually the most popular faction in Palestinian society. And Hamas is only the result of Israeli policy, of brutal apartheid ethnic cleansing and occupation. That's why Hamas exists.

Any type of Palestinian leadership that has arisen is a direct result of Israeli brutality. So I'm not going to speak on behalf of Palestinians and say what should or should not happen or who they should and should not elect. but I will say that Hamas is a democratically elected leadership of the Gaza Strip. I understand that there will be voteback and that inevitably, should Netanyahu remain... Should these policies maintain in place? Should Netanyahu remain in power in Israel after this? No.

Hang on. I think that the Israeli people have spoken about Netanyahu, but I think that Netanyahu is the tip of the iceberg. To blame this all on Netanyahu and his so-called right-wing governments wash away the foundation, foundation of what Israel is. Should he stay in power after this? No, he's committing genocide. So you're prepared to say to the Israeli people, no, your leader should go.

Here's the thing. You're not prepared to tell Palestinian people that their leadership should go. But here's a thing. Again, the inconsistency. The Israeli people are out in the streets and the tens of thousands saying Netanyahu should go. There are many Palestinians who want Hamas to go, too, I'm sure. The point is you were, you made a, many Palestinians who want Hamas ago. Well, then have an election.

You made a big dealer saying it's a election. You made a big dealer saying it's a election. It's not down to me to tell Palestinian people about their leadership. And then immediately, I give you the open door on that. Naira. Yeah, absolutely you should go. Totally inconsistent. Well, he should be tried at the Hague and put in the Hague.

That's a different question. I mean, he's committing genocide. Different question. But you say you can't interfere in Palestinian politics, but you're very prepared to interfere in Israeli politics. Let me ask you, Emily. Well, because he's committing genocide. Okay.

He's committing genocide and he should be tried and thrown in a prison. It's a matter of international cause. Emily, let me up. And that's what international courts are. Right. That's what international courts are going to find. None of them have actually spelled out crystal clearly it is genocide. It is moving that way, I have to say.

Emily, let me ask you the same question. How does this end? I mean, I think that Israel, as well as Palestinian leadership, needs to work together with other partners, especially in the Arab world to help rebuild Gaza. Israel isn't interested in occupying Gaza in any sort of permanent way. That is not something we want. We withdrew from that territory.

We do not want it. And I would like to see Palestinians be able to return to their home safe. and elect some form of government or leadership that is able to actually implement one day in the future some sort of peace process. And I think that involves working together with community leaders who are on the ground

that are not affiliated with Hamas. Did you accept that anything going forward which looks like a peace deal would be a two-state solution and that Palestine in that respect would be an identifiable state confirmed by Israel and that they would no longer be dependent on Israel

for the flow of food and water and fuel and all the other things which Israel has had some control over now for decades. In the long term, of course, yeah. I do think that there needs to be some sort of solution. The problem that we're facing today... Many Israelis don't. I believe is actually the radicalization element

within Palestinian society because Palestinian leaders don't have a mandate to lead, not Hamas and not Mahmah Makhur Abbas, and we don't have a leadership that's able to implement any kind of peace deal in any borders. And when we have that... I don't think Netanyahu's had any interest in a peace deal either. I think he's been quite happy watching Hamas and the Palestinian authority at each other's throats since the early 2000s.

I don't think he's ever shown any real desire to find peace. That's why I'm not a Netanyahu spokesperson. I personally think both Israel and the Palestinians, they both need new leadership that actually wants to forge genuine peace in a two-state solution, which offers security. and safety to both sides. And maybe it will take time, but you know what? But peers. I remember in Northern Ireland, people saying was equally intractable, and they eventually got there.

You just need new leadership that knows what it's doing, who can actually believe in the concept of peace. We've got to leave it there. Abbey Martin, Emily Schrader, thank you for a spirited debate. I appreciate it. Very much indeed. Thanks.