Piers Morgan Uncensored - Israel-Hamas Ceasefire with Jonathan Conricus, Myriam Francois, Rep. Dan Crenshaw & more

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

Israel and Hamas are now formalising the ceasfire deal which could finally pause the war in Gaza and see the release of both Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners. It’s a three-stage process which could ultimately take years. But it begins with Israel’s withdrawal from the most populated areas of Gaza - and the staggered return of the Hamas hostages. What’s striking is that the deal, or most of it, has reportedly been on the table since July. Many thousands of people have been killed since then and Israel has invaded Lebanon. It took a visit from President Elect Trump’s incoming envoy, Steve Witkoff, to achieve in a single weekend a feat which has evaded President Biden for more than a year. Was that by design - or by dereliction? Can the Palestinians trust Trump? And can Trump trust Netanyahu? And most importantly, is the world a safer place than it was before the war began? This was the chilling assessment of outgoing Secretary of State Antony Blinken. To discuss, Piers is joined by journalist Myriam François, former IDF spokesman, Jonathan Conricus, journalist and activist, Ahmed Eldin Opinion Editor of Newsweek, Batya Ungar-Sargon and later Piers also speaks with Texas Republican Congressman Dan Crenshaw Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The world is going to be a safer place, I don't think so, as long as Hamas is in power. And will we see peace in the Middle East? I doubt it. We don't take any of our cues on anything to do with ethics, morality, or assessment of the Middle East from a spokesperson for a genocidal government. If you're here to take the other side, are you therefore, de facto, a spokesperson for Hamas? Bab, spare me. You can describe it as a band-aid on a wound that requires surgery. This cycle will continue. No, I belong in my free homeland, which is where I am and will continue to be.

Trump, through his Middle East envoy, acting in his behest, has achieved more than Joe Biden's managed since October the 7th. They see Trump here on the horizon, and Trump makes comments, of course. It looks like there will be hell to pay if you don't return the hostages. Hamas believes him. I think the first thing you're going to see from the Trump administration's foreign policy is abandoning this need for allies to be weak. Trump likes his allies to be strong, and that's what we saw with this deal. Thank you all very much. But joining me to Miriam, you will never be back.

Israel and Hamas are formalizing the ceasefire deal, which could finally pause the war in Gaza and see the release of both Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners. It's a three-stage process, which could ultimately take years. But it begins with Israel's withdrawal from the most populated areas of Gaza, and a staggered return of the Hamas hostages. That is fundamentally a good thing. while striking is at the deal, or most of it, has reportedly been on the table since July.

Well, many thousands of people have been killed since then, and Israel has invaded Lebanon. It took a visit for President-elect Trump's incoming envoy, Steve Whitkoff, to achieve in a single weekend, a feat which has apparently evaded President Biden for more than a year. Was that by design or by dereliction? Can the Palestinians trust Trump? Can Trump trust Netanyahu? And most importantly, is the world a safer place than it was before the war began? This was the chilling assessment of outgoing Secretary of State Anthony Blinken.

Indeed, we assess that Hamas has recruited almost as many numeral as it is lost. That is a recipe for an enduring insurgency and perpetual war. Well, to discuss all this, I'm joined by the journalist, Miriam Francois, presenter of the T and senior fellow with New Lions Institute, the former IDF spokesman, Jonathan Comrickas, journalist and activist Ahmed Eldin, and opinion editor of Newsweek, Batia Ungar Sargun. And shortly, I'll also speak to Texan Republican Congressman Dan Crenshaw.

Well, thank you all for joining me. Obviously, a pivotal moment here. Jonathan, let me start with you. We've talked a lot in the last year. For people who haven't got into the weeds about what this deal may look like, summarise it in very simple terms for us. Yes, hello, Pierce, and I hope this will be a good year for all of us. Just before I answer, I take it upon myself to continue with the practice we did in previous episodes of not interrupting anybody unless interrupted myself.

And I think the viewers will enjoy that. To your question, I think that what we have before us is a deal that strategically speaking is not good for Israel and it's not good for Gazans. It's not good because it prolongs the problem. Hamas will still remain in power over the Gaza Strip, and we won't see strategic change. As long as Hamas is there, we can all rest assured that there will be continued misery, suffering, fighting, and war in Gaza between Hamas-Lad Gaza and Israel. The only good thing that may come of this, and I'm really, really hopeful that it happens, is that we will see the return home of hopefully as many as possible of the

the 96 remaining Israeli hostages that have languored in Hamas captivity for 470 days. Taken on the 7th of October, brutally by Hamas and kept in Hamas captivity since. We fear that we're only talking about 35, perhaps less than that, that are alive. And the positive thing that may come of this is that they are returned home and that there's a short respite in fighting. To be very realistic here, you asked in the intro, if the world is going to be a safer place, I don't think so, as long as Hamas is in power. And will we see peace in the Middle East?

I doubt it. As long as Hamas still is allowed to continue to govern the Gaza Strip, then I don't see really a way forward, and I would love to be corrected in the future. And bottom line, in my mind, the way I see it, this is a milestone, an important one and I yearn to see Israeli hostages embraced by their families finally after such a long and cruel and barbaric captivity. But beyond that, I don't think that there are many positive things happening strategically, not a good deal for Israel, for Israelis, and actually not for Gazans as well, because it will keep them in this limbo situation of Hamas still there, not

ousted, but nobody really taking care of starting to rebuild Gaza or to provide any type of functioning governance. OK. Not to unpack there. Mirriam Francois, your response. Well, first of all, we don't take any of our cues on anything to do with ethics, morality, or assessment of the Middle East

from a spokesperson for a genocidal government. So let's be absolutely clear that Jonathan is here 16 months into a genocide to provide cover for that ongoing genocide. And the only platform this man deserves is one at the Hague, which eventually is where he will end up with the rest of the United States.

the government that he currently represents. Let's not forget that there are already two arrest warrants in place for him and Yuel Galant, him being Netanyahu that this man here represents the spokesperson of that very government. Well, he's not the spokesperson for that government. He's a spokesperson for the IDF. He's not. He's not. He's an independent citizen now.

Oh, for, Pierce. Spare me. Okay. Sorry, you said he's a spokesman for the idea if he's not. Okay, peers. Of course he's not. He's just here as a friendly former member of the idea. He's not. He literally is. He literally is not. Okay, Piers. That's an actual job. So I don't mean to be

just to be factual. He's not the spokesman for the IDF. He's in an independent capacity. He's not in an independent capacity, but sure thing. Now, moving on to the terms of the deal, this man is not a reference for any analysis on that. I think the most important question is what is going to happen to the civilians who are caught up in this conflict. That is the only real question at stake here, whether they are Palestinians or Israelis. And after 16 months of conflict, there must be a resolution. Now, we know that Netanyahu has systematically catapulted any attempts to bring about a peace agreement.

And it appears from what our non-spokesperson, spokesperson has been saying, that that is unfortunately where the current proposed deal is likely to head. But to me, I don't think you could even... Are you a spokesperson for Hamas, just out of interest? Oh, spare me, Piers. Are you? Spare me.

Well, by the same yardstick, going to say that Jonathan Conrickis has a formal job on this panel as a spokesman to IDS. Yes. I'm just asking you then, if you're here to take the other side, are you therefore, de facto, a spokesperson for Hamas? Babes, spare me. We're not having. Okay, well, and if you're just asking you, if you're going to give people labels, they should be accurate. Otherwise, viewers may get a misleading view about what is happening. So anyways. Can I jump in, peers just to clarify? Please do, Ahmed. All I'd like to say is he, he, he, he, he, he's, He was a spokesperson for the IDF.

Yes. That's accurate. That's accurate. But you would agree he's not the current spokesman for the IDF. And these things actually matter because the current spokesman for the IDF, I can tell you, would not be saying what Jonathan's saying. That's why I know he's speaking as an independent voice. Because he's been very critical of a deal that the IDF spokesman would not be critical of. So these things are important.

Sure, sure. Facts and truths are important. Yes. And I think anybody who's served as a former spokesman for the IDF, It's certainly not considered impartial or independent. But if I may, I want to share with all of us. I never claim to be partial or independent, to be honest. I'm representing my...

It's just better to use accurate... It's better to be using accurate terminology about whether people have official roles or they don't. And just to be clear, Jonathan Comrick is no longer any form of official spokesman for IDF. He's here as an independent person, albeit, as he says, not with non-partisan views. he's openly clear about that, but he's not an official spokesman. I think that matters for viewers who are watching, who may be confused as to whether, because of what Miriam said he is, and he's not.

No, Pierce, I agree with you. Facts matter, and I want to start by addressing an uncomfortable truth. Any ceasefire deal, since we're talking about a ceasefire, that leaves the illegal blockade and occupation of Palestine intact is going to be, by definition, temporary. You can describe it as a band-aid on a wound, that requires surgery without addressing the root causes of the violence, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

This cycle will continue. And I think we're here to talk about a ceasefire and whether that will lead to peace, as Jonathan talked about, because we've all seen the harrowing images coming out of Gaza. Pierce, I know you've seen them because you share them on your social media. They're horrific. They're heartbreaking. They're relentless. And frankly, they're a moral test for all of us,

including Jonathan, how can we, as human beings, witness what we've witnessed, and not only be overwhelmed by helplessness, but not confront the mechanisms that enable this impunity. That's where we have to start. And this ceasefire. Well, actually, okay, let me stop you there, because I think this is important to clarify where I come from on this, okay? Sure.

I don't have a side, despite what both sides keep telling me, because both sides think I'm in the camp for the other side, I've always tried to be fair. But you see, it's interesting when I hear you, because you basically start in your thinking, in the way you're speaking publicly, from Israel's response onwards. And I prefer to start from this whole thing in totality going back to October the 7th and the heanness attack on Israel. It's totality. I'm not talking to you. Yeah, but I am talking to, and I'm letting you know that it didn't start on October the 7th.

No, there's obviously. And if you want to take it in your totality, please. We should do that. No, I do mind. Just show some respect to your fellow panelists, please. No, I do mind. And if you want to start from the beginning, let's start from 1940. I'm about to say that.

If you let me just finish what I'm saying. Welcome. Obviously, I know there is 75 years of history to this conflict. Obviously, I'm aware, passions on both sides run very high. Obviously, I'm aware, Ahmed from everyone I've talked to on both sides. And I would say my show has platformed more people, by the way, from the Palestinian side than any other show in the world. So when people on the Palestinian side say to me, you're so biased. I would agree to that.

I would agree to that, period. Because I could rattle off a lot of names of people who've not been allowed a space anywhere else, right? And Jonathan, I know you know that because you've been up against them, right? So my point is this. I know that because I've seen the amount of vile anti-Semitism that has been platformed here, the amount of lies and utter nonsense, including by the two previous speakers, accusing Israel of genocide and things that are fantastic. And completely, completely false.

Okay, don't talk about. Okay, listen. I mean not. Let me go back to up, Matt. I was talking to Ahmed. Let me just talk to it. Tell me, here's my point. I'd just like to have a conversation, guys.

Let me finish my point. Don't all talk with each other. Let me finish me. Let's try and keep some order here. We get a better debate for the viewers. So my point is, I go back to October the 7th, for the purposes of this particular war, this particular phase of the whole conflict, okay? And so when I hear people who only start about their horror about Israel's response,

I say, well, hang on a second. You actually need to start with the utter horror of October the 7th, which precipitated. this extraordinary response from Israel, which in my opinion, for the record, I think has now gone way too far. And I've always asked during this, what is proportionate.

I do not believe what has been happening in the last few months is proportionate. And I think that's why this has to end. So my point, though, I mean, is that I don't think you can talk about Israel's response in isolation and not record the fact that on October the 7th, 7,000 people were wounded or killed and over 250 were kidnapped.

So I just want to put it in totality, because I think it's been reached a point of potential ceasefire or some kind of agreement. It's the only way to be fair about this. Sure, sure. But because we want to be fair, I think it would be an insult to our collective intelligence and to our collective humanity to suggest that nothing before October 7th can justify October 7th. But October 7th itself can somehow justify the horrific violation of moral and legal norms day after day. I agree. I agree. I agree.

With the premise of what you just said. Yeah, but I'm just saying I agree with you about that point, right? So I agree that nothing that happened on October the 7th to me now, to me now justifies the scale of what has happened now since, right? Fair enough. Fair enough. On that, I agree with you. And, Pierce, the point that I need to make and that I was going on to make, so I appreciate you interjecting, but please just let me get to the point.

Sure. Because what's disturbing to me, Pierce, is, as you know, Palestinian suffering did not start on October 7th. It did not start last year. As you mentioned, it's been decades of ethnic cleansing. And, you know, Jonathan called me a liar, even though I've barely spoken on this program. I don't think I've shared any lies. But one thing I want to say about Palestinian suffering is even in the context of an unfolding genocide,

the scale of which you describe, the conversation is immediately derailed. It's redirected to condemnations of Hamas or abuses in other nations, as if one injustice nullifies another. Francesca Albanese, on your show, made it clear that one war crime, according to international law, does not justify another. And yet, here we are watching Israel commit war crime after war crime every single day. And let's just be clear. When it comes to the ceasefire, to bring it back to the point of this show, the delay in the deal wasn't about negotiations, or Hamas, as the media has repeatedly claimed. It was about putting profit over people, putting, appeasing Israel's far-right government, and even,

Even now, as a deal is edging closer, we still hear from extremists in the Israeli government, like Smodrich, calling it a catastrophe and openly advocating for the continued not only occupation of Palestinian people on land, but for cleansing. That's his word, Gaza. That is, if you look at Pierce the objectives that Netanyahu stated, we see now U.S. intelligence reports that Hamas has recruited at least as many new fighters as Israel. Yeah, I find that very disturbing. I agree. Yeah, and this is because this is not a war in the traditional sense. Gaza has been reduced to a death camp. Now, that might sound like hyperbole to Jonathan or anyone else, but the reality is being documented, and the evidence is all over the platform X,

and it's all over alternative and independent media. And so the stark reality is that we are witnessing a chilling reminder that history repeats itself. Despite the carnage, Israel's strategy seems to be fueling resistance, not extinguishing it. They're not eradicating Hamas. Israeli security officials themselves. And Jonathan, correct me if I'm wrong or lying.

They admit that Hamas fighters have only been reduced from 25,000 to 19,000. I'm citing U.S. intelligence as well, which reminds us, No. I already know, which is, let me just finish. You said you weren't going to interrupt. Jonathan, at the beginning, you said you weren't going to interrupt. I'm almost done. No, you invited.

need to correct you. So I'm happy to do that. It can be crushed. You can correct me when I'm done. So what is Israel gained? I'll ask you, Jonathan. Not at stated... You've been speaking for like 20 minutes.

Amat hasn't been defeated. In fact, it has... Okay. Well, to be fair to... To be fair to Jonathan, Amman, you can't keep asking questions. And when he tries to reply, you say you say you haven't finished.

What has Israel accomplished my question to Jonathan Pierce? I appreciate that. Netanyahu's real objective has not been accomplished. His stated objective has not been accomplished. And you and I both, know, Pierce, and Jonathan does as well, as does everybody on this panel. And I'd love to hear from the remaining guest after Jonathan

that the Biden administration knew the terms of this deal back when they proposed it. A deal that Biden allowed Netanyahu to torch while fueling Israel's genocide. All right. Let me, let me, all right. Listen, I'm going to let Jonathan respond to you because you ask direct questions. Batty, if you just hold fire, I will come to you, I promise you. We've got Dan Crenshaw waiting as well.

I'm going to go to him and get, I'm going to get Bati to respond. I'll get you to respond about it to what Dan Crenshaw says in a moment. But Jonathan, first of all, your response to what Ahmed said there about this apparent reality, which the Americans are putting out there, which is that Hamas, far from being defeated, actually almost every Hamas terrorist who's been killed has now been replaced. I mean, what is your response to that? Yeah, so there were a few things that I actually could agree

with the previous speaker, with Ahmed. in the fact that Hamas has not yet been defeated. And I said so, I admitted so myself, and I think that's why Israel has not yet achieved its strategic goals. It has not yet safeguarded southern Israel. And Gaza will continue to be in misery because Hamas still governs. Now, a very important detail that was omitted, I suppose not by mistake, is how is Hamas recruiting and what enables them to recruit?

They're recruiting 15, 16, 17, and 18-year-old boys, and they're doing so by coercion and conditioning the supply of food, of humanitarian aid that Israel is allowing to get into the Gaza Strip that is paid for by many parts of the international community. And Hamas, you're interrupting me and that's not okay. I didn't interrupt you. And Hamas is using that in order to, of course you will. You can call me names, but that doesn't justify it. defending genocide, sir, and you belong in the Hague, not on a panel. No, I belong in my free homeland, which is where I am, and will continue to be. And you can continue to spew violence and hatred on Al Jazeera and promote terrorism.

And you will be held accountable for your deeds. Miriam, if you're right, if you're right, Miriam, the time for that to happen will come, right? And if you're wrong, then you're actually slurring Jonathan in a way that I think is unfair for this particular panel right now. You have no evidence that he supported any genital. Which is all you've been doing, Miriam. It's all about personal attacks,

trying to paint me as something that I have, that I'm not. And you don't even have the facts. Just to be clear, for everyone talks after each other, no one can, a home can ever understand anything anyone's saying. So I'll just finish my point here.

No, no, no, no. You don't all then just immediately start talking at you. No, no, time out. I'm going to actually go to the one person who's being calm and reserved and respectful. And that's Batia. Batya, your response to what you've heard so far. You know, with all due respect to all the panelists, I disagree with Jonathan. I think this is a really good deal. I disagree with Ahmed. I do think that Hamas's capabilities have been severely degraded.

And I think that they have never been this unpopular with the people of Gaza. You're seeing people speaking up against Hamas in a way that we really have not in a very long time. There were protests in 2019, they were brutally, brutally suppressed. So I really do think that this is a very ripe moment for something new to come out of this. And I think that's why from our point of view as Americans, we elected Donald Trump because of the foreign policy that he promised, which was to be absolutely ruthless when it came to terrorism and absolutely dubbish when it came to counterproductive wars that have nothing to do with us. You know, when barbarians come into your homeland and steal your women and rape your women, you have to go and humiliate their soldiers and bring your women back.

And so I think that this is a very important moment. And it's showing us what we're free to leave. You're free to leave. No, but where barbarians enter your homeland and rape your women. That is what they are. Is that really the tenor of the conversation, Batya? Barbarians enter your homeland and rape your women. How is that is exactly what is.

OK, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Hang on, please, everybody. Ahmed, I'm very curious. I'm very curious, I'm very curious, I mean, if you don't call what happened on October 7th barbaric acts of atrocity committed by barbarians, what would you call it out of interest? What do you call?

No, I'm don't asking you, I'm not playing what about you. I'm asking about your indignation about the categorization of what happened October the 7th is barbaric. Come on, we didn't. I joined, Pierce, the answer to your question, the reason I started speaking is because she called it barbaric, I didn't take issue with that use of, that's on her to use those adjectives. I took issue with the facts that are not accurate.

She's claiming women were raped systematically or whatever. Women were right. Let me, let me. Israel's own prosecution. Let me just challenge you. A lot of evidence that women were raped. Israeli authorities admitted last week that after 18 months of investigations, no allegations of rape or sexual assault have been filed.

Because the victims were murdered, because the victims are dead. Because the women were murdered as they were raped. No, you're not to tell lies without any responses. There's no case to proceed because the women were murdered and butcher in cold blood. That's why there's no file. found no evidence of such crimes. In fact, the reporter, and at Schwartz, noted no one had met a victim of sexual assault. So despite this...

Because they were murdered. It's very convenient when you rape someone and then murder them. The reason I am saying that... Guys, guys, guys, you can repeat lies until you're blowing in the face. Let me just finish for 30 seconds. No. You've been interrupting this entire conversation and filling it with nonsense and lies. You've been saying genocide and quoting all kinds of odd sources.

I am using a recent UN report. And you've been cherry-picking. Jonathan, I'm not cherry-picking. I am saying there is a recent UN-Roy. Oh, yes, you are. You are chari-picking with the capital C. You know why you're interrupting me? You know why you're interrupting me?

It's now becoming a much- You know what? You know what? I have read enough, I've read enough reports by people like Christina Lam at the Sunday Times, one of the great reporters of the world, that it is beyond any doubt that women were sexually assaulted and raped, right? And if you try and pretend they weren't, then I'm sorry.

I'm not trying to pretend that. I want to bring in the Texas. You're not an individual adjudicator here. I'm going to bring in. Sorry. I'm really sorry. When everyone talks, no, I'm really sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I am moderating the panel. I'm going to bring in the Texas Republican Congressman Dan Crenshaw. Then I'll come back to panel. But when hopefully you will all have learned how to speak not over each other. Yes, daddy. Respectfully. Yes, daddy.

You know what I'm about being yes, Daddy. It's about being respectful to a panel. Listen, if you're going to carry on me, you may as well leave. You'll absolutely carry on. It's honestly pathetic. And I will say what I need to say. Oh, honestly, it's childish. Don't be childish.

Let me bring in Dan Crenshaw. Dan, thank you for waiting so patiently. Dan, with you, I wanted to talk specifically about the role of Donald Trump here because he's the president-elect, obviously, inauguration coming on Monday. He sent his envoy, Middle East envoy, Steve Wickcoff.

Last Friday, met the Qatari Prime Minister to discuss the developments in the region. He then went to the United States. to see Netanyahu. And after that talk, Netanyahu's officer, the prime minister would send the director of Mossad, David Bonnet, to Qatar's capital in order to try and advance this deal.

It seems like Trump, through his Middle East envoy, acting in his behest, has achieved more in getting us to the place of a potential ceasefire and deal than Joe Biden's managed since October the 7th. There's a couple of things happening here and first appears I promise not to call you daddy. Thank you very much.

I'd appreciate that, Dan. It'd be weird. Very weird. Look, there's obviously a Trump effect, and this is because of Trump's leadership and charisma, of course. He has a big personality, but it's also because it is the incoming administration. This is, of course, who all of these players in the Middle East are going to want to talk to. So this is not surprising at all. There's another thing that we've seen over the last year, which is the Biden administration

and the Democrat Party in general has always been caught between these two factions. This sort of pro-Hamas, pro-Palestinian anti-Israel faction, and they're largely Jewish voting base, which supports Israel. So they've never really known what to do politically. Donald Trump doesn't have that problem. Republicans don't have that problem. We are for Israel. It's that simple.

And that also makes dealmaking much more simple. So Biden would withhold weapons, right? Especially certain pieces of equipment, for instance, that would make dumb bombs, smart bombs. didn't make a lot of sense. He would allow the United Nations to condemn Israel. It just wouldn't, it wasn't the amount of support that you would see under Donald Trump. So Hamas sees this, right? Hamas sees that they could probably continue the PR, the worldwide PR campaign against Israel,

that they have been successful in doing for decades and decades and decades under a Biden administration, but they see Trump here on the horizon, and Trump makes comments, of course, like there will be hell to pay if you don't. return the hostages. Hamas believes him, and they should, because, look, we have four years of a Trump presidency where he really did do what he meant. I mean, he killed General Soleimani just because he was on a layover in Baghdad. He's that kind of president. And so you can expect that he's going to do what he says he's going to do, and it's going to push these people into a better deal. There's plenty of a debate over whether this is a good deal for Israel.

I will say, that's hard to say. You have to ask somebody who's from Israel. For America, what do we generally want strategically? Look, we want to weaken Iran. Well, Israel gave us that. We want to weaken Hezbollah. They really gave us that. We want a Syria that we can actually talk to. Well, that's happening right now.

And we want to severely weaken Hamas. So for America's perspective, and I would say, the last thing, what do we want? We want stability. We don't want chaos everywhere. That's good for America. If this deal gets us there, I would say that's a pretty good thing. Are you concerned, Dan, about these reports, coming out from American intelligence and from a Secretary of State, Anthony Blinken,

it seems like many of the killed Hamas fighters have been replaced with like for like. In other words, this idea that they've been killing and depleting most of Hamas may not actually be the reality on the ground, that they've just been replacing them as fast as they've been losing them. It's possible. I need to really look into those reports and see what's real and what is it. When you do replace fighters, you're not replacing those fighters with seasoned trained fighters.

You're replacing them with new fighters that need to be trained. So either way, Hamas has been decimated. And as I understand part of this deal, Hamas can never be the governing authority in Gaza ever again. I under, correct me if I'm wrong, I understand that to be part of the roadmap in this deal. So they can recruit as many fighters as they want, and then they'll be killed again by the Israeli defense force. and presumably possibly with American health, especially under Trump presidency. So look, neither of us being in Israel or the United States have any interest in Hamas ever regaining any power.

That's because that wouldn't be good for any of us, and it certainly wouldn't be good for the people of Gaza. That should be obvious to everyone by now. All Hamas has ever done is create conflict and misery for the people of Gaza. It's not like we don't have any sympathy for civilians in Gaza. I absolutely do. It's horrific. But the people who've created this war, it's very clear.

It's Hamas. The people who want genocide. It's Hamas. It's in their charter. From River to the Sea means genocide of the Jewish state. The Jews, the Israelis, are not committing genocide. That word gets thrown around all the time. Well, you're misusing it.

It's not the correct definition. They've done more than any military in history to attempt to get civilians out of places where they are about to move in and conduct operations against Hamas. That is the opposite of genocide. War is messy. It's horrible. And there are casualties. And I wish there weren't. But when you have an atrocity like you do on October 7th,

you have to question what choice you have. You have to eradicate your organization that conducted it. Where do you see this in two, three years' time? I mean, how do you see the future of Gaza, for example? It's quite clear from their rhetoric. There are certain people on Netanyahu's cabinet, for example, who I think would be quite happy to never see Palestine. Palestinians back in Gaza if they could possibly achieve that.

I'm not saying all of them think that. I'm not even saying Netanyahu thinks that. But there are certainly people on that cabinet, I think, whose rhetoric suggests they would. Do you see a situation in two, three years' time of Gaza being rebuilt, a Hamas-free Gaza and people being led by, I don't know, whether it's the Palestinian Authority

or whether it's an Arab coalition or whoever it may be? How do you see the future here? because from where I'm sitting, it looks incredibly complicated. It is, and it's very hard to predict. Don't be a fool and try to predict what happens in the Middle East. You'll just end up being wrong. But we can say what we hope. And what we hope is that this roadmap, this peace plan,

works out the way it says it's going to work out, which is Hamas is not the governing authority, an international coalition as an interim governing authority, in the end, the Palestinian people choose a government, authority of some sorts in some former fashion. Of course, that didn't turn out well so well. Last time when they actually kicked out the Palestinian Authority, threw them off rooftops and elected Hamas so that they could be at war for the next 15 years. But that is still the hope. You're not going to get rid of millions of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. Okay, that's not an

option. Israel controlling it and governing it is not an option. It's not an option for Israel. They don't want to do that. Remember, they tried that before 2006. And then they tried letting it be autonomous and look what they got, you know, thousands of rockets over their neighborhoods and then October 7th. So ideally, you eradicate, you get Hamas out of the picture and you have a stronger presence,

I think, from Arab countries, more aid coming in, more rebuilding, and then a governing authority that everyone can trust. That's the ideal situation. How you get there is very difficult. Yeah. Dan Crenshaw, as always,

thank you very much indeed. You're doing me. I appreciate it. Thanks. I mean, Mary, I don't see any future in Gaza with Hamas in any kind of power. Do you? Did we come up against the white man mantra of, it's complicated? I think we did, folks.

Here we are again. Hang on, what color are you? What color are you? I'm sadly of your camp, Piz. You're white. In November 2024, stop talking. Well, you're sad, you're white. Israel's, no, sadly in your camp is what I said.

What does that mean? You know, a thing used with your life. What do you mean? So, you're going to toss around skin color jibes. What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you're saying that because we have white skin, we can't comment on this? Oh, spare me. You know, this little victim thing you do, it's not cute. I'm asking you to clarify exactly what you mean when you say these things. And I will tell you exactly what I'm going to clarify, which is that in November 2024, Yuel Galant, who is a wanted war criminal, and Israel's out of, and Israel's out of, The arrested defense minister actually told the families of hostages that Israel had actually achieved all its military objectives in Gaza. And he was very clear on something that is well known within Israel. My question for you is, should Hamas...

Okay, but my question for you is... Sorry, you have to answer my question or I'll move on to somebody else. I'm still going to your question. No, answer my question. The current deal... Should Hamas have any power going forward after this or not? Amatok. Political objectives of this deal are not, unfortunately,

peace, which is the only sort of deal that we should be discussing at this point. Should Hamas have any power after this? We're talking about a political... I'm not Palestinian. How is it for me to even answer that question? What I will tell you is that we are... You seem a world authority on everything Israel's doing, but you can't even answer a basic question about whether Hamas

should have any power after this. Yes, sweetheart, I just do an analysis. I'm not your sweetheart, I'm not your daddy. You are on this occasion. I'm not any of these stupid little jibes you're doing. I am white. A slur you seem to do it. to think is somehow worth delivering in the middle of this.

The current deal that we have on the table is really not a ceasefire deal, unfortunately, because there are no guarantees that phase two and three of the deal will ever be brought about. And I think that's really where the focus of this conversation should be. You can't answer my question about Hamas having power. Why don't we talk about serious things, peers? Why don't you just answer my question? I would actually say whether Hamas has power after this is a pretty damn serious question.

I will. Do you think they should? I will get to that. Do you think they should? I will get to it. because this is the question I've asked you. I will get to it on my own time. What's your answer?

My answer is, are you ready to hear it? Answer it. Little drum roll for you. Do-dum-dum-dum is that we should be looking at a peace deal that achieves actual peace in the region. Should Hamas have any power? At the moment, the current phased proposal is not allowed to get to that themselves.

Should Hamas have any power? Are you going to leave me? Oh, that would be sad. Let's actually talk about serious things. Well, I wouldn't worry about it because you'll never be back here again. But just for the purposes of the question, for the purpose of the question, We're not all five-year-olds.

Why don't you just try and be an adult? Try and be an adult in the room and answer a straight question. How about you don't talk over me? No, how about you answer my question or you shut up? Which one's it going to be? Did you actually just tell me to shut up on the show? No, I gave you a choice. Answer the question or shut up.

One of the two. Which ones are going to be? You're not my dad, sweetheart. Which one's it going to be? You're not going to tell me what to do. Okay. Let me go to you. Somebody who won't be calling me sweetheart or dad.

No, I'm done with you. I'm done with you, Miriam. You're a complete, you're a complete, I do actually on my own show. I do on my show. You're a complete and utter halfway. So let me bring in Ahmed. Ahmed, should Hamas have any power at the end of all this or not? Whether they should or shouldn't, Pierce, it looks likely that they will, as we've heard from all the guests on this panel, essentially.

That seems to be what Batya seemed to disagree with me on, even though I was just citing U.S. intelligence and Israeli officials. I do want to just say one thing is clear. I want to correct the record on two things, and I'm not going to take us back, Pierce. But, you know, it's in the Lakud Charter, and it was part of their 1977 election manifesto, this phrase, from the river to the sea. I think it's important that I bring it up

because your previous guest said that it was in the Hamas Charter. Of course, Hamas has only been around, you know, for 20-some years. The double standards that this speaks to and how narratives around the phrase from the river to the sea are treated, not just by the media, reveals the power dynamics at play here. When Palestinians, like myself, say it, use it. I have it on a sweater, on a jacket. We're calling for liberation.

We're calling for a demand for freedom from decades of displacement and apartheid. Yet, of course, it's twisted into a genocidal threat. Meanwhile, Israeli leaders, like Netanyahu, who I think is best described as a war criminal who has an arrest warrant issued against him, he openly uses it. He claims the same geography, expanding settlements, enforcing policies that erased Palestinians.

An entire family was erased today, 11 of them, where they were displaced in Deer al-Belah. And, you know, Pierce, the one thing I want to say, I know we disagree on the rape thing, but I do want to say, the reason I interrupted Batya, not only because I was quite shocked to see someone from Newsweek

use this sort of terminology and adjectives and language so loosely, but while the media, and Batya fixate on these debunked and discredited narratives. Let me just get through my sentence. It's largely ignored. Documented verified cases of sexual violence committed by Israeli soldiers against Palestinian detainees, including video evidence.

A recent UN report details systematic rape, torture, dehumanizing acts that were inflicted even against children. And that is Josh Paul, the former State Department, that resigned, who says that. That is not me. Okay. So we're running out of time. I need to bring in the others.

I want to bring in Batia to respond because, Bati, you haven't had much chance to speak before you interrupted. I mean, Batiah, how do you see the future here? Because it seems to me that it's horrendously complicated. Nobody has a clear idea of what's going to happen. What do you think is the smart way to resolve all this coming out of the wall?

So first of all, just in the spirit of unity, I want to agree with something Ahmed said. Israel does have more power, and that's a good thing. There's this sort of worship of objection and weakness on the left that leads often to the creation of false equivalences. And I think the first thing you're going to see from the Trump administration's foreign policy is abandoning this need for allies to be weak and equivocation in foreign policy. Trump likes his allies to be strong, and that's what we saw with this deal. when Steve Whitkoff went to Doha and to Qatar

and then brought Bebe Natanyao to the table and said, look, this is happening. This is very classic in terms of the kinds of foreign policy we're going to see going forward. What I want to see is safety and security for Israel and self-determination for the Palestinian people. I think probably all of us on this panel want that very, very deeply. And yeah, maybe it is Polyanish to be seeing this huge uproar

from Gazens against HMS for the first time in so long. But I think that we should be empowering a civil society within Gaza. We should be calling upon moderate Arab countries to step up and play a leadership role so that those voices don't get crushed by, I'm sorry, yes, the barbarians in Hamas, but that civil society is a chance to live. Sorry, Miriam, you had your chance. Sorry, you don't talk over her. You don't talk over her.

Sorry, you don't talk over her. Please be quiet and let Batia finish. Batia, please finish your point. It's so dehumanizing for you to use that word. I'll finish. Thank you. I would like Vasia to finish the point, please. Stop talking, please.

I'm honestly shocked that people would object to calling Hamas barbarians. Of all the things I said here, I didn't expect that to be controversial. I took issue with the rape, which was not controversial. They definitely raped and sexually abused women. But the point is, where is the accountability of the extremism within Israel? We have experience in power. We have experience in power. We're bringing in Jonathan.

Jonathan, Jonathan, here's my question for you. Miriam, sorry, you've had your chance. You behave like a child or treat you like a child. Sorry. I'm sorry, but you're being let down by your... Okay. Can you turn a mic off, please? Turn a mic off.

Yeah, please. Your mic off. Okay, Jonathan, your chance to talk. Only I can hear it now. Jonathan, you speak. Yeah, so I mean, what I, as someone who lives here and intends to continue to live here, way, I would like to live in a peaceful environment where I have my country and the Palestinians

have their self-governance and in the future a country where they have a focus on the future of building their own future, not destroying ours and taking away what we have built through blood, sweat and tears in our ancestral homeland, my forefathers who came here and the people who were here before, but actually them focusing on. building their own nation. Now, that will happen once UNRWA is dissolved, once the fantastic and illogical definition of fourth and fifth generation refugees

is laid to rest, which I think it should be. There is no other ethnic group. Just to be clear to viewers who are as annoyed, I'm sure, as I am by this juvenile pathetic performance, the only person who will never be platformed on this show again is you. Because you, Miriam, have termed this, every chance you've got into a pathetic juvenile rant.

You're not going to be on it again. I want to pick up on something Jonathan was saying. I want Jonathan to finish his point. Ahmed, you've been speaking the entire program. Ahmed, you've been speaking the entire program. So please let me finish my point here. And when we look forward, if we look at this militarily and strategically,

and I say this with a lot of sadness as someone who lives here and faces the brunt of Palestinian terrorism, me and my family and my friends, I think this is just a milestone in the way. And I think that the war that was launched against Israel on October 7 by Hamas, and then later joined in by Chisbalah and the Houthis, and then the Iranian regime chimed in, they are all going to continue to fight against Israel,

and Israel is going to continue to defend itself. Now, the big difference here, and here's the kicker that all the Palestine lovers and Israel haters will really, not like is that we're going to keep on fighting until we win. Winning means living here in our established borders and being able to be prosperous and safe and protected, whether or not people around the world like it or not. And I'm sure that many people don't want us Jews to live safely

in our ancestral homeland, but that is what we intend to do. Now, the coming years are going to be tough. Can I just... The coming years, the coming years, they're going to be tough. The coming years, the coming years are going to be tough. Okay. The coming... Jonathan, I've got to cut you off.

I'm sorry. He's been speaking half the program. I know, we run out of time. I want to give him this 30 seconds. I want to give him 30 seconds to respond. 30 seconds, I'm going to ask. You know, we've been disagreeing on whether rape did happen, didn't happen. And all I want to say is Israel's killed four more journalists this week.

Had they let journalists in from the beginning? We would maybe be able to actually... You know what, Akhm, I genuinely believe. I genuinely think we would all... We think we would all agree that one of the more shameful things of this entire war is that Israel has not allowed international journalists to go in there and report fairly and freely. And when they don't do that, then you have to ask, what are they hiding? It's just a rhetorical question, Bata, you seem shocked that I took issue with your use of barbaric. I took more issue with the fact that you were stating as fact as though RIP happened, even if Pierce agrees.

Would you call, I'm wondering, if you're so willing, Jonathan, don't interrupt, if you're so willing to call Palestinian and you're not going to whitewash it away. I'm asking Bata, Jonathan, I know you and I agree about Israel should. I know you are. I know you are. I know that. Please, do not insult me in that way. I did not call Palestinian's barbaric. I just get my question.

My question to you is what the IDF has been doing barbaric? Would you use the same adjective to describe what the IDF has? has been doing for the last year? I certainly think the rape in state Tehrman was barbaric, yes. You didn't answer my question. I'm asking if what the IDF has done in killing tens of thousands, what the Lancet recently said is 90,000 Palestinians. Is that barbaric in the same way that Hamas is a reported rape

as barbaric? No, there's a difference between war and war crimes. We have to distinguish between the two. Will investigations? And Israeli soldiers who rape children. Will investigations of this? Can I answer your question? Do you want to hear my answer?

No, it was a rhetorical question, you said. What about the Israeli soldiers? Rape children. Are they barbaric or no? I'm curious. What about Hamas? I have not seen any compelling evidence about that. You seem to care.

I'm going to. I would like to answer your question. Are Israeli soldiers who rape Palestinian children? You seem to care very much about this. I'm going to leave it there because that we're going to hear a damn word anyone anyone say. I've got. Let me thank you.

Let me thank you to Jonathan, to Ahmed and to Batia. Thank you all very much for joining me to Miriam. You will never be back. So I won't be thanking you. I'll just be very, very glad to see the back of you.