Piers Morgan Uncensored - Israel’s hostage rescue: But At What Cost?

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

This weekend Israeli forces raided a refugee camp in Gaza and successfully freed four hostages who’d been abducted at a music festival on October 7. The Hamas-run Health Ministry says 274 people died in that raid, including children and civilians. The IDF says it killed fewer than 100. But whatever the total, it’s horrific. This was a refugee camp. Children were killed. That doesn’t make it any less horrifying that four innocent Israelis were snatched by terrorists at a music festival in the first place, and no less of a triumph that Israel has now brought them home. Two things can be true at the same time. What exactly is wrong with having a moral conscience about innocent people suffering? Journalist and broadcaster Emily Austin, Palestinian-American commentator, Omar Baddar & Host of “Part Of The Problem Podcast”, Dave Smith join to debate. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Two things can be true at the same time. That is a fact that has been all but abandoned and the fevered and polarized commentary on the Israel-Hamas war. This weekend, Israeli forces raided a refugee camp in Gaza and successfully freed four hostages who've been abducted at a music festival

on October the 7th. The Hamas-run health ministry says that 274 people died in that raid, including children and civilians. The IDF says it killed fewer than 100 in total, including Hamas terrorists. But whatever, the war is. real figure. It's obviously horrific. This was a refugee camp. Children were killed. They are clearly

innocent. It doesn't make it any less horrifying that four innocent Israelis were snatched by terrorists at a music festival in the first place. And no less of a triumph that Israel has now brought them home. These things can all be true at the same time. And the exact same logic applies to the war itself. Israel had no choice but to declare war on Hamas for perpetrated the worst massacre of Jewish people since the Holocaust, but it doesn't have a blank check signed in Palestinian blood to commit repeated atrocities without accountability, especially now that members of Netanyahu's own government are calling out his failure to explain the Israeli endgame.

To the very many people on both sides have attacked me for saying that, our question is simply this. What exactly is wrong with having a moral conscience about innocent people suffering? And more importantly, where is yours? Well, joining me now to debate this, journalist and broadcaster Emily Austin, Palestinian-American commentator Omar Bada and the host of part of the problem podcast, Dave Smith.

Dave, let me start with you, actually. A lot of people are part of the problem, it seems to me. The longer this war has gone on, the more entrenched people have got into their various tribes, and it's got increasingly toxic. There's no admission by anyone in those tribes of any wrongdoing on their side, and there's no attempt to any attempt to come across the bridge.

and forge any kind of settlement, resolution, or peace. It seems to me that we are entering a really depressing phase of all this war. What is your view? Well, I can't disagree with any of that. It's certainly depressing. I mean, listen, this has been going on since October. We're nine months into this thing now, so it's been depressing for a while. And I agree with everything you said in your opening,

that, of course, perpetrating violence against innocent civilians is wrong, no matter who does it. And that ought to be the basis for Western civilization. I mean, especially for people who like to kind of brag about Western civilization and the aspects where it's superior to others. The thing here, though, right, is that, as you say, Israel doesn't just have a blank check signed in Palestinian blood, but objectively, the reality seems to be that they do and that they have unconditional support from the United States of America,

the global superpower, no matter what, even if our own president asks them not to do something and they do it, they still continue to receive this unconditional support. And of course, as I've said to you before, Pierce, and I think this has kind of been the fundamental truth throughout this entire conflict, is that the only way you can really support Israel and what they're doing is if on some fundamental level you value Israeli life more than you value Palestinian life. And if that's your starting point, fine.

But if that's not your starting point, then you don't look at a mission that got four Israelis back and killed a bunch of children as a success. Well, you see, that's where I have a real, again, I've used this phrase many times in this war, a moral quandron. I'll tell you why. Should there be any limit, given that Hamas kidnapped these people, kidnapped young women, they're kidnapped babies, they kidnap holocaust survivors, as well as murdering and wounding thousands and thousands of people, should there be any limit to what Israel should be able to do militarily to rescue those hostages, From all the footage coming out, they planned this because they had information about where they were being held. They then sent special forces in to get them, came under heavy, heavy fire. And as a result of that, there were air cover sent in as well.

And I'm just curious, what should be the limit on Israel to go and rescue these innocent kidnapped hostages? Well, I mean, look, the limit. should be, you know, in general, what the limit over this conflict should be, is that your number, if your number one priority is to get back the hostages, I think this whole campaign would have been conducted in a very different way than it has been over the last nine months. But, you know, look what's wrong. The essence of what makes it immoral to take these hostages is that these are innocent people who did not do anything to forfeit their natural God-given rights. but that also has to apply to innocent Palestinians who were not involved in October 7th or had no blood on their hands.

We're not members of Hamas militant groups. And we're describing millions of people who fall into that category. And so, you know, in an ideal world, the limit would be that you could only go after those people who were directly responsible. Now, in war, that's rarely the case that there are no innocent casualties. However, I think a reasonable approach would be to expect Israel to do what they always claim that they're doing, which is just a blatant lie, which is that we're doing everything we can to avoid civilian casualties. But very clearly, that's not been how they've been conducting this war. All right, Emily, let me bring you in here.

I mean, look, I was joyous when I saw that these hostages have been rescued, particularly Noah Agamani, whose story touched the world, seeing this beautiful young woman being taken off on a motorbike, absolutely desperate with fear, and we all feared the worst for her. And then the added human dimension of her mother having incurable brain cancer. And very sadly, it appears she's too far gone

with the cancer now to even really understand what has happened with her daughter coming home and wanted to live until she did get home. So the whole thing was tragic, but has the joy of her obviously being rescued. But when you look at these numbers, I mean, think about the Palestinian Health Authority numbers, is that historically, going back before October the 7th for decades,

or several decades anyway, when these figures released by the Palestinian Health Authority, which is Hamas run, have been verified independently, they've come back as reasonably accurate. I mean, not completely, but reasonably accurate numbers. We don't know whether these are reasonably accurate the ones are putting out now, but Israel admits to killing at least 100 people.

we don't know how many of those are mass. And they say 274. Either way, it's clear from the scenes at the hospital that there have been a lot of women and children, innocent people clearly, caught up in this. And so the same question for you, really. Yes, I'm joyous at the return of hostages. Yes, I think Israel absolutely has a right to go and get them.

But at what cost to innocent Palestinian life? What's interesting about these debates that end up becoming pretty chaotic is that everyone expects usually the Zionists and I can't speak for anyone but myself to be unapologetic about Palestinian casualties. Now that's not me that will never be me because I'm not a monster.

Now, of course, Israel needs to do its best job to protect innocent civilians. Now, when I say innocent civilians, I don't mean the journalists or op-ed writers that are keeping hostages in their home. If you're complicit in keeping hostages or you're complicit in terrorism. To me, you're not a civilian.

You're a terrorist as well. I agree. Now, with that being said, at the same time, my point is never, in my life, I will never say the Palestinians deserve it. This is what they get because of Hamas. My point is always the same. All of the blood spilled on both sides of this conflict

are Hamas's fault. It's only Hamas to blame. Because if it wasn't for October 7th, the idea for not be in Gaza, If it wasn't for the hostages being in civilian apartments, guess what, Pierce? There'd be no civilian casualties. And I also want to point out one thing, just a food for thought. Is it only IDF bullets that penetrate?

Excuse me, does Hamas not fire back? Do you think Hamas is not responsible for casualties as well? So my point is never that it's justified. It's always the same. Every ounce of blood spill needs to be blamed on Hamas, and the world needs to put international pressure on Hamas. because if the hostages were released time and time again, this war could have ended.

Instead, where do they put them in a refugee camp to maximize the casualties that everyone's going to face? And that is why it's a problem. Before I go to Omar, I do think it's very disingenuous when I hear the argument. If Hamas just released the hostages, this war would be over. Israel's stated mission is not just to get the hostages back, is to eliminate Hamas.

So getting the hostages back, is one part of it. But it's not true to say if they had them all back tomorrow, Netanyahu would not want the remaining Hamas terrorists to still be there. He would continue, as he'd make very clear, to execute this war until he got rid of all of

Hamas. So I just don't think it's right. Did America not want Al-Qaeda dead after 9-11? You know, I'm just saying it's not right to prevent future terrorism. No, no, that's true. But I'm just saying it's not accurate. When I hear pro-Israeli guests say, well, if they just handed back the holidays, it would be over?

It's not as simple as that. It wouldn't be over. I'm saying it would minimize civilian casualties. Of course, you want to rat-Kahamas, because if you don't, October 7th will be December 7th, will be February 7th, et cetera, et cetera. My issue is that they make sure, Hamas makes sure to maximize the civilian casualties. And for some reason, the blame goes solely on the IDF. Okay, let me bring in, Omar. I'd be waiting patiently. Omar, you know, it seems to me

there's already now split in the Israeli War Cabinet. Benny Gans has resigned. You know, people view him as more moderate than Netanyahu and Benghivir and Smodrich and so on that there are other, you know, very right-wing members of that cabinet who, not the war cabinet, but the more general government cabinet,

who are pushing Netanyahu to a very bad place, they feel. And I sort of share that view. I don't know where this ends, and Gantz has made it clear. He's resigned because he doesn't see any end game. He doesn't understand what life is going to be like at the end of this war. And that should worry all of us. What is your view of where we are with this split now in the Israeli hierarchy? That is precisely where we are, peers.

I mean, Gantz split off because he understands that there is significant discontent with Netanyahu domestically. There is significant international discontent with him, including from the United States. And he's hoping to reap the rewards, if that's a lot of. pressure eventually ramps up to a point that actually pushes Netanyahu out of power for him to be there to basically replace him and become the future leader. But I just want to emphasize the fact that we are precisely here because Israel does not want to end this war. They've set unrealistic goals. They said that they're going to continue this onslaught until Hamas is defeated militarily, until they freed

all the hostages militarily. And in the meantime, this onslaught is killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians, day in and day out. And because Israel can't achieve its goals, The idea that we just have to sit back and watch this horror continue endlessly is completely ridiculous. I mean, just I was listening to Emily speak, and all you have to do is just reverse the scenario for just a moment, peers. Right now, as you and I are speaking, thousands of Palestinians have been kidnapped out of the Gaza Strip and are placed in Israeli detention centers where they are undergoing daily torture. There's a piece in the New York Times exploring the absolutely horrific torture they're undergoing, including acts of sexual abuse that they are enduring.

And right now, and by the way, several dozen of them have died in Israeli custody almost certainly due to the abuse that they are enduring. And if you were to ask a question right now, is Hamas justified in invading Israel to rescue for Palestinian detainees out of the thousands that are held by Israel? And what kind of civilian cost would that be worth? Imagine that scenario and imagine that several hundred Israelis were killed in the process. How many people would celebrate the release of those Palestinian prisoners? It's a valid point, but I would also ask you another question, which if we do flip all this round, and it had been the IDF who had gone over the border on October the 7th, murdered in the most horrific barbaric manner, 1,200 Palestinians, the majority of whom were completely innocent people,

kidnapped over 200 and brought them back into Israel, and wounded nearly 7,000 more, many of them catastrophically. Are you really saying that anyone on the Gaza Strip would have wanted any limitation put on Hamas for exacting revenge? You are making an absolutely incredible point, Pierce, because you don't have to imagine that scenario. Back in 2014, when Israel initiated a military operation against Gaza, they killed 2,200 Palestinians,

including more than 550 Palestinian children, and that does create a sentiment within Gaza, people who want vengeance and that's why you see people, some people, react to October 7th as saying, what do you expect after everything that Gaza has endured at the hands of Israel? And right now we're putting our finger precisely on the point is that if we want to compare atrocities back and forth, frankly, I don't think Israel fair is very well, because there's no question that Hamas has committed atrocities against Israelis, but Israel's atrocities against Palestinians have been far greater, far more frequent and extend over a much longer period of time.

And if we're serious, just last point here is that is really important. If we're serious about wanting to end these atrocities, you have to deal with the underlying problem. And the underlying problem is that Israel's recipe for Palestinians says they are not allowed to ever be free. They must live under siege and occupation forever. And if they don't like it, they can either leave or be subject to Israel's brutal military operations

and until Israel starts seeing Palestinians as equal human beings who can live in freedom on their own land. I don't think this thing is going to end. We're going to be stuck in a long time. Just to get a quick reaction to that from M. I actually agree with Omar to a certain extent that if you go back and forth and compare atrocities, it'll be an endless conversation because there's plenty to go back and forth with. I'd also like to add talking about if you flip the narrative, let's say, which thank God, Israel has the Iron Dome.

Let's say they hadn't. How many civilian casualties on a daily basis would Israel be facing? I also want to point out some serious hypocrisy. Everyone's talking about why can't we equivocate Palestinian lives to Israeli lives? And absolutely we should. Why are Palestinian lives any less or more valuable than an Israeli? Then how come in every ceasefire exchange for some reason they equivocate one hostage to 6,000 Palestinians who are arrested for either alleged terrorism or valid terrorism?

If you actually want equality and fairness, then let's address the fact. Palestinians live better lives often in Israel than in Palestine itself. It's not a ridiculous point. How many rockets of power that changes how many... Sorry. I'm sorry. That's a complete mis-meas... That's a complete misreading of the situation.

The reason why there is a discrepancy in the hostage exchanges is because there is a huge disparity in power. Israel can just go into the Palestinian areas and kidnap thousands upon thousands of Palestinians who are held without charge or trial. If Hamas were capable of doing something like that, you probably would see a one-to-one exchange of people. Omar, how many rockets a day does Hamas sent to Israel to target civilians?

Oh, my, how many rockets today? I just, I want to see a way. We're getting into the kind of tip-for-tat argument, which is one you both highlighted actually in different ways. And I don't want to do really this way. Let me ask Dave this. It's just breaking news now. The United Nations Security Council on Monday's adopted a U.S.

drafted resolution backing a proposal outline by President Joe Biden for a ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants, Hamas, in the Gaza Strip, I call them terrorists. Russia abstain from the vote, the remaining 14 council members, voted in favor and the US finalized this text on Sunday after six days negotiations among the council. So a sort of significant move there to support President Biden's way to try and bring about a ceasefire.

But it does, again, it does beg the question, what happens next? I mean, I don't think there can be any future here that involves Hamas having any power whatsoever, nor do I think there can be any future with Netanyahu in charge of Israel. And I'm not entirely sure, given the scale of what? what's been going on in the last seven months, dwarfing anything, really, we've seen in many decades. I don't know quite how we get to peace. How do we rebuild trust and get to some sort of peace?

I mean, you must have thought about this a lot, Dave. We all have. What do you think? Well, I mean, look, it certainly seems like a daunting task, and it seems right now that we're about as far from peace as we could possibly be. I think I may have said this to you when we were doing your show when you were in New York

a couple months back. But, you know, like last year I went and did comedy shows in London, and then I flew over to Ireland and did shows right there. And, you know, you guys are right next door to each other. And there was a time when it seemed like you guys could never achieve peace. You know, the truth is that as many pro-Israelis liked to brag about at Camp David in the late 70s, Israel did make a land deal with Egypt, a land for peace deal. And that piece stuck. They went to war four times in a little over 20 years. and they haven't been to war ever since.

And so as bad as things do seem right now, I do believe that there's a path where there could be a deal made and there could be a lasting peace. But the bottom line is that what you have to understand, and I appreciate Emily saying that, like, there's been a lot of atrocities on both sides. I don't think anybody would deny that. And I don't think anyone would deny that Hamas has some responsibility

for atrocities that they've committed. But the point is the underlying fact that you can't get away from here is that this is an asymmetrical. conflict. Israel has occupied Palestine since 1967. We're not talking about a few months after a war, or even a few years after a war. We're talking about longer than the Soviet Union occupied Eastern Europe. And the idea that people say, well, if Hamas just surrendered today, the war would be over. Like, let's even say that's true, which I'm not convinced it is, but let's say that's true. And then what? Live in subjugation forever? I mean, look,

The height of the Netanyahu doctrine was two weeks before October 7th when he went to the United Nations with a map of greater Israel, including Gaza and the West Bank, all being Israel. That was the peak of the Netanyahu doctrine. And what he was telling the world and the Palestinians was, it's over, you lost, we won, we made our deals with the outside Arab world. No one's coming to save you. You live in subjugation forever. And the culmination of that was October 7th. Okay. And that's not to remove responsibility from Hamas.

Can I respond? Can you not remove responsibility from Israel? I'll let Emily respond to that. I want to ask David. You just said Israel is occupied. Obviously, you hear that narrative every day. And I often hear chants specifically here in Manhattan. We don't want two states.

We want all of 48. When the UN came up with the partition plan and nobody was happy with that, and they gave land not only to Israel, but Jordan too, I just can't help but to think, why does nobody criticize the occupation of Jordanians taking the land from the Palestinians? How come it's only anger once it's the only Jewish state in the entire world, in the entire globe, that suddenly it's occupation? And also, can somebody enlighten me how we occupied the land that never had a prime minister, never had a government, never had a currency, never had one person with historical ties to the land called Palestine?

I just can't wrap my head around this occupation narrative. Let me see if I can help. So the reason why people aren't currently occupied about or currently outraged about Egypt occupying Gaza or Jordan occupying the West Bank or something like that is because it's been over since 1967. So like, yeah, if you want to go back historically, there were bad things that were done by lots of groups of people.

However, since then, it's been the Israelis doing the occupation. That's not a narrative. That's just a description of reality. As far as your point about like, you know, that there was never a currency or there was never an official state of Palestine, I, as I've said before, I just find this to be the most un-American, unenlightenment way of looking at things. I mean, all you have to do is read the- It's just comparing facts. No, it's not, no, it is completely irrelevant. And here's why it's irrelevant. Read the Declaration of Independence. That's all you need to do, and it will completely dispel you of that. The Declaration of Independence starts off right away.

Well, the Middle East is not America. I wish it was a little... Okay, fine, it's not, but these values transcend America. It's the idea of natural rights. Man is born free because these are God-given rights. And governments are just something we institute to protect our rights. And if the government isn't doing a good job of that, then the people have the right and maybe even the duty to overthrow that government.

No offense, Pierce. You guys, you've had your wins too. But this one was ours. And so I'm just saying, no, listen, it doesn't matter whether they were dominated by the Ottomans or the British Empire or Jordan or Egypt before then. These are human beings who deserve natural rights, and they have absolutely no rights under Israeli rule

and haven't since 1967 due to the Israelis. What happened before? Palestinians actually have full rights in Israel, but okay. Well, I'll tell you what, Emily, on that point. Palestinians in Palestine. Hang on, hang on, here's what I was saying about that. It was very clear, very soon after October the 7th, when Israel was able to control food, energy,

water and things like that and turn that tap of supply on and off that actually Palestinians do not have the same free rights as Israelis. Otherwise Israel wouldn't have had the ability to do that. But how much of the percentage of that? The water and electricity. Israel would

put up an argument about why they do that, but you can't dispute that that was what they were able to do. Omar, I want to do some more details coming out about this. Well, I just want to bring you up to speed with the details coming out of this announcement. They're talking about a full and complete ceasefire, the release of hostages held by Hamas,

the return of deceased hostages remains, and the exchange of Palestinian prisoners. The plan includes three phases that would end with a multi-year reconstruction plan for Gaza, which has been largely destroyed due to the fighting. The second phase includes a permanent end to hostilities, as well as full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. This is according to a text of the US draft resolution. I mean, first of all, do you welcome the broad... brush strokes of that statement?

Certainly do appears. I want to address this directly, but I just have to go back to just one thing that Emily had said because I think it's really really important not to gloss over it. When we talk about Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories, when you look at settler colonialism in the United States

and the fact that Native Americans were pushed off of their land, nobody cares that Native Americans did not have an officially recognized government or what currency they had or this or that. These are people who are living on their land who are being pushed out by an occupying force, That's all that matters. And what's unique about the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories, particularly

in the West Bank today, is the fact that it's settler colonial expansion. Palestinians are being systematically pushed out of their land and out of their homes, so Israel can build more and more settlements to take over Palestinian areas. And 80% of water in the West Bank is taken to be used by Israel and by the settlers. This is Palestinian water. Every Israeli policy, every inch of the West Bank that Israel takes over by force, every drop of water that Israel takes is a violation of international law. These are war crimes that Israel is committing.

So to pretend to conflate all of that with whatever historical examples there have been of other occupations and not, you're missing the point that Israel is actively replacing Palestinians and Israelis. Okay, but let's also get to the point of this breaking news. I also want to address that America did not give the land back. Okay, but I want to move on.

Okay, but I want to talk about the... That's true. You've all had a good child to talk. I want to talk about specifically this proposal. and whether you think this is the kind of framework we need now to get to peace, and whether you believe that anyone affiliated to Hamas can have any role in any kind of government in Gaza going forward? Sure. Starting with a ceasefire, I think it's quite obvious and inevitable

that a ceasefire is going to be the only way out of the mess that we're currently in, unless people are happy to just sit back and watch a genocide unfold for year after year. And the only problem right now with a ceasefire is whether there is a question about whether we're going to move from a temporary one to a permanent one and what that negotiation in between entails. And the problem is that Prime Minister Netanyahu has made it absolutely clear that there will not be a permanent ceasefire until Hamas is completely defeated. So he's insisting effectively that there is not going to be a ceasefire because he can't defeat Hamas militarily. And so the slaughter is going to continue indefinitely. So to the extent that the international community and the United States can apply meaningful pressure, on Israel and Netanyahu in particular to say knock off this delusional fantasy that

you're going to have an epic win beyond the fact that you've completely destroyed the Gaza strip and killed 40,000 people. Enough is enough. It's time to put an end to this onslaught and just have an exchange of prisoners as hostages and move on with life. As for the question about Hamas, whether Hamas can have a role in the future or whether Netanyahu can, I don't think that's a particularly important question. I think Israelis can sort out who leaves them, people in Gaza can figure that out. What's important for us as a third party sitting on the outside, be the United States or the rest of the international community,

is to say that support for foreign military occupation should not continue. It is not our role to decide who rules Palestinians or who rules Israelis or who's in the government and who's not. It is our role to say that as long as Israel continues occupying Palestinian land, besieging Palestinians, denying them their most basic and fundamental rights, Israel should not receive another penny of U.S. from the United States in military funding, and not another veto and all this unconditional diplomatic support that the US provides for Israel to do whatever it wants.

Violated international law left to light without any consequence. Conversely, what about all the money that Hamas has been receiving, billions of dollars? A lot of it via Israel. A lot of it via Israel. Presumably, by the same yardstick, you would like to see zero funding going into Hamas? Unquestionably.

Unquestionably. Human rights organizations have been absolutely clear about the fact that nobody should be sending weapons either to Hamas or to Israel, and I agree with that entirely. Fortunately, I live in a country that does not supply by Hamas. So it's very easy for me to say, stop U.S. funding for Hamas because it doesn't exist in the first place. What does exist is U.S. funding for the Israeli government and the monstrous atrocities that they are committing day in and day out. And that's what

we need to have change. And once that changes, once Israel no longer enjoys this impunity that the U.S. gives them, they will find themselves in a position where they have to negotiate in good faith and to recognize that Palestinians are an equal human being who have to get their fundamental rights, that they are entitled to every inch of independence and dignity and basic human rights that Israelis enjoy. Until Israel treats Palestinians differently, we're not going to have an end to this conflict. And that's what needs to change.

Thank you all very much. That was a great debate. I really appreciate it. Thank you.