Piers Morgan Uncensored - Jordan Peterson On Trudeau, Tommy Robinson & UK Grooming Gangs

Episode Date: January 8, 2025

A decades-old scandal rooted in the north of England has, in the last few days, been pushed to the top of the western world’s newscycle; that being the grooming gangs of Rotherham. In this particular case, the perpetrators were largely Pakistani muslim men while the victims were largely white underage girls. Worse still, it’s being reported that this case was ‘covered up’ due to fears that it could spark islamophobia. Author and psychologist Jordan Peterson speaks to Piers about how the UK came to find that ‘causing offence’ is a bigger problem than child abuse. Piers then throws the debate over to his panel; consisting of Political Journalist Ava Santina, Uncensored contributor Esther Krakue, co-host of Steve Bannon's War Room Natalie Winters and philosopher & writer Jack Symes. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My problem with Robinson being the hero of this is that Robinson is not in prison for anything to do with the gang rape scandal. The primary source of information for me in Canada has been Tommy Robinson and his insistence on pursuing this. It might be wonderful for us to presume that the person who does that would also be of unpeachable ethical character on all dimensions simultaneously. Jordan's responsible for this mess that's going on now. He should be ashamed of himself because in the UK we know who Tommy Robinson is. In the US, he has been Tommy Robinson's passport to gaining influence with Elumbus. If you want to have the uncomfortable conversation about Islam, it is sort of conducive to pedophilia. I don't know what planet you're living on or what you're smoking, but I'd suggest that you do a course in religious studies.

Thank you for the ad ha-hom attacks. I'm sure that means you have a really strong argument, but I think the young working-class girls, class girls would beg to differ. Well, the UK's rape grooming scandal, let's call it a rape scandal, not really about even grooming. It's just about people raping young, often underage girls. It's a grotesque stain on Britain's standing as a world leader in morality and the rule of law. There's no nuance and no complexity to this. Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of child victims of sexual abuse were denied justice and denied shelter from a state whose primary role it is to protect them, simply in order to avoid

in many cases, stirring racial tensions. Authorities knew exactly what was happening, but they turned a blind eye to the prolonged grooming and rape of largely white children by gangs of mostly Pakistani heritage men. We know this because some journalists and some public figures working with brave whistleblowers and victims

were refusing to be silenced. The Times newspaper broke the story first back in January 2011 with that dramatic front page. I interviewed one of the original victims and whistleblowers as the host of Good Morning Britain back in 2018. He was a serial rapist. You weren't his only victim by a long way.

He was the ringleader of this infamous child grooming gang in Rotherham, right? I didn't even know that anybody, any rapist could ever get access to any child born from their appalling actions. That'll not be invited you. But he was jailed for 35 years, right, for multiple sex offenses against 90. Rotherham girls, including you. This isn't just somebody who committed one rape against one person. This is a serial groomer and rapist, the worst type of human being imaginable, praying on young girls as you were, right? What, I mean, this clearly has been, this won't be the only time this has happened,

presumably. What should be done to the law to stop this nonsense? Well, I'm asking for a changing law for the Children's Act 1989, to ensure that no rapists can apply for access to a child concede through abuse and rape. So the point is the scandal was covered by mainstream media, both television and newspapers. Not enough, in my opinion, as a journalist. But it doesn't mean also that it wasn't a massive cover-up. It was covered up by almost everyone involved in this. We know that a documentary on the grooming gangs was postponed

to avoid aiding the right-wing BMP and local elections. We know a senior police officer in Rothera, where many of these atrocious crimes took place, told him victims father the town would erupt if the details came out. We know that in towns and cities across the country, up to 50 of them, authorities had a crystal clear picture

of a small section of a community who was ultimately responsible for the vast majority of the most wicked crimes. They were in the main British, Pakistani Muslims. Almost exclusively, the politicians, law enforcement, local authorities conspired to bury the truth because they were afraid in many cases

of being labeled racist if they told the truth. Many of these young victims are raped and abused for years because of its culture of conspiracy and fear. That is simply unforgivable and it must never happen again.

Now the reason why so many people are now demanding a full national inquiry and I'd be one of them, in fact today, just before I came on air, Elon Musk has replied yes to my post on his platform, X, demanding a national inquiry and demanding Sequea Stama, the British Prime Minister, to order it,

is because so little has actually been done with the findings of the previous investigations. And the reason it's become a global story now is because Elon has snapped many people from their inertia on this by amplifying so many horrific details that people may otherwise not have known. And that's where Tommy Robinson comes in.

People may or may not know my views on Tommy Robinson. I think he has a long, very ugly record of brazen race baiting, in my opinion, a very open and transparent hatred of all things to do with Islam and, consequently, most Muslims. But whatever his motives, and remember, this guy's been to prison three times now from a multitude of crimes, and is in prison right now nothing to do with the rape gang scandal, but everything to do with his sickening lies about a young Syrian refugee, which he then compounded by repeating, despite a court order not to, there's no doubt that, to be fair to Robinson,

he has banged the drum about the rape gang scandal for a very long time, and he should be credited for doing that. In fact, he was on Newsnight on the BBC, just a month after the Times broke the story with Jeremy Paxman and said this. Do you know anyone that's hooked on heroin sold to them by Muslim gangs? You probably don't. I do. Do you only beautiful girls that you went to school, with that are now wearing a burqa that don't see their family. Probably don't, I do.

Do you're only one who's been murdered by a Muslim gang? You probably don't, I do. Do you know that you've grown up with that have been raped or pimped? You don't. So I don't expect you to understand the issues. These are all personal issues of yours. Personal issues in towns and cities like mine that are happening and they're not happening with the Sikh community. They're not happening with the Jewish community. And indeed, they're not happening with most Muslims. No, they're happening within the Islamic community. This one's saying that it's an Islamic problem. Well, that interview, as I say, came after the front page I showed you earlier. It was the times that broke this story that exposed it, that carried on a lengthy, lengthy campaign.

And for the importance of doubt, Tommy Robinson, like I said, he's not in jail. There's so many in America in particular seem to think for his whistleblowing about the rape gangs. He's in jail for contempt of court. A crime he's committed many times. It's a crime in America as well. You can be jailed for contempt of court in America. People have been. but many of the US seem to see Robinson as a beacon of truth

who's been pivotal to exposing this evil. I don't see him like that. I believe, as Nigel Farage does, the leader of the Reform Party in the UK, that he's now so toxic and so discredited that he is in fact being used deliberately as a kind of opposition sacrificial lamb with a precise aim of discrediting those who do want to expose the truth.

If they make it all about Tommy Robinson, A lot of people will just go, well, he's awful, therefore we shouldn't listen to anything he says. But actually what he says about the rape gangs then and now has turned out to be true. And the truth must come out. Lessons must be learned. Those accountable must be punished. The Prime Minister Sekeir Stama must, as I posted earlier today, order a full, no-holds-barred, independent national inquiry. Well, what we not discuss all this is a psychologist, author of We Who We Who Wrestled with God,

the co-founder of the Peterson Academy, my good friend Jordan Peterson. Jordan, great to have you back on Unsensored. You contacted me because you don't agree necessarily with my views of Tommy Robinson. I think we share a lot of views probably even with him about the rape gang scandal. There's much to discuss here.

First of all, the rape gang scandal itself, with your expert psychologist eye, what has happened here to make so many people, people so afraid to call it out for what it was, which was predominantly British Pakistani Muslim men, abusing, raping, drugging, young, often underage, white English girls. All right. So let's think of four bins of complexity that surround the issue. Okay. So the first is the racial divide that typifies the crimes. So it's Pakistani Muslim immigrants and white working class young girls. So there's a racial, ethnic and religious divide that is part and parcel of the crime.

And there's a class issue in the UK with regards to the victims and also the whistleblowers like Robinson. Then there's the meta problem of the difference between Islam and Christianity. The additional problem that psychopathic sadists use religious justification to camouflage and justify their crimes. Then there's the problem of open borders and immigration and the progressive presumption that all cultures, no matter their difference, are valuable in their diversity and can be integrated peacefully into society at, what would you say, an indefinite rate. Okay. And then to add another level of complexity, there's the politicking between the progressives and the right wing with regards to all the issues I just described. Okay, so that's like an absolute bloody rat's nest. And there's lies in every one of those,

along every one of those dimensions that are extraordinarily deep and pervasive. And so I was very apprehensive about this discussion with you, Pierce, because there's almost no way of weaving, let's say, our way through this without making egregious errors. Yeah. So, okay, so with, well, let's, on the psychological side, let's point out two primary realities.

The first is that sexual misbehavior, of the, even of the sadistic kind, is to be expected. You might think about it as an aberration from the norm, but it's only an aberration when the norm is deep and profound and the consequence of many years of socialization and centuries of history. Like the default position for an unguarded woman worldwide and throughout history has been raped target. That's the norm.

not the civilized conduct that generally obtains between men and women, even in public, like on the streets in the West. And then there's the additional issue that resentful, psychopathic, sadistic, low status, desperate men will use any excuse whatsoever to get access to women. So those are just some of the ugly realities that we have to contend with to weave our way through this complete bloody mess. Yeah, and it is very complex, but at the heart of it, you also have a massive cover-up where people from local government, from the main federal government, police, you know, social workers, almost everybody whose job it is is to protect, particularly vulnerable young girls in society. I mean, I can't think of a group you would more want to protect

or throw the force of the establishment protective arm around than vulnerable young girls. At every level, they conspired to not just fail them, but they failed them in many cases deliberately because they didn't want to, in their eyes, led off a tinderbox, a racial tinderbox, by telling people, hey, you know what's happened here? a very large number of British Pakistani Muslim men

have been systematically raping young, damaged white girls, in some cases not damaged before they got their hands on them, for a very, very long time, and we've done very little about it. And they didn't want to say this, because they were terrified that there would be a huge scandal around that, and there would be a lack of, there would be unrest in communities and so on,

which to me seems that the ultimate immoral cowardice. Well, okay, I think there's two things going on there, Pierce. The first is the certainty that anyone who would blow the whistle would be subject to the worst possible of cancellations by the woke mob. And this is partly why I have some sympathy for Tommy Robinson, let's say, because it is definitely the case that to take a stand against this is to make yourself a target for the worst sort of calumn. and legal action.

So the threat is real. And the cancel culture types are very good at identifying individuals and bringing reputation savaging to bear on them in an extremely effective way. So people had reason to be afraid. Now, I'm not saying that that fear justifies their silence or their complicity, but we have to be clear about the fact that their fear is real. Now, there's another aspect to that that's even uglier than this, I think, Pierce, which is that, look, we know that when you destabilize a community

with rapid transformation, this could be, let's say, with regards to the green agenda that makes energy more expensive or to uncontrolled immigration, any rapid change with economic consequences demolishes the lower rungs of the socioeconomic hierarchy most particularly, right? They say that when the aristocracy catches a cold, the working class die of pneumonia. And that's a deep biological and sociological truth.

Now, one of the corollaries of that, and this is where it gets ugly, is that it's very easy for the elite, especially in a relatively class-based system like the UK, to virtue signal about their progressive openness and their cosmopolitan sophistication, while sacrificing the genuinely poor and dispossessed, so the English working class to the depredations of whatever virtue signaling policy happens to be conveniently at hand. And so partly it's cowardice, partly it's fear of, say, being singled out and cancelled,

but it's also partly willingness on the part of the elite to sacrifice the genuinely downtrodden and poor to their moral presumptions, you know, to their costless virtue signaling. And that happens consistently throughout the West now. Almost all the progressive agenda, including the open immigration policies, are absolutely devastating to the people who can least afford to be devastated. So I would say the elite in Great Britain made a choice to sacrifice the children, of working class Brits to the moral

grandstanding of their progressive elitism. And that's in addition to the absolute cowardice that, you know, had some justification in real fear because there was a cost. And I think that's why Robinson is such a complex figure because, you know, you said in your introduction,

you're not very happy about his documentary. And I don't know what to make of that documentary, the one that... as you said, savage the reputation of the Syrian immigrant. There's so many layers of lies surrounding absolutely everything that's part and parcel of this complete bloody catastrophe that it's very difficult to get to the truth. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we can say is that...

Yeah, I mean, look, on Robinson, here's what I would say. I watched your interview with him. I've interviewed myself. He's not stupid. He's very articulate. He speaks in a very passionate manner. But the things I'm not... have a problem with Robinson about this. One is, I don't think people in America, it seems to me, in the last week, since Elon Musk, there are a torch to all this. And in my opinion, probably did

us a massive favor as a country, notwithstanding a lot of the things he said, I think, have been quite problematic in terms of the vitriol on certain individual members of parliament. For example, he targeted one female member of parliament, Jess Phillips, who then got immediate death threats. people are now being arrested in connection with those death threats. It is serious because two members of Parliament in Britain have been murdered in the last 10 years by people who didn't agree with their opinions. So I think there is a responsibility that Elon has,

which he has to tread carefully about in how he says things about public officials. However, he's absolutely right to say that this is a scandal that hasn't gone away, that the cover-up has never been properly investigated, that people will never held properly account, that no one has gone to prison, who was at any level of responsibility for trying to protect these girls, none of them were properly held to account. All of that, I think, is a valuable thing that Elon Musk has now made everyone think about properly.

And the only answer to me is a full independent national inquiry to get to the bottom of all of it, and then to hold people properly accountable. My problem with Robinson being the so-called hero of this is that many people in America, and I'm not saying you're one of them, I'm sure. you now know a lot more about him, perhaps you did before. But Robinson is not in prison right now, but anything to do with the gang rape scandal. He's in prison because of this movie he made, this documentary, as he put it, as a journalist, which I don't think he is,

he's someone who made a film after he was convicted in a court by a judge of being seriously defamatory, a young Syrian refugee boy, who he tried to make out was the villain of a bullying incident that went viral because there was a clip, when in fact he was the victim. The judge made it crystal clear

in his very extensive ruling, which I read at length last night. It's many, many pages. It's extremely detailed. It includes his analysis of all the witness statements, what the school had told him, all the documentary evidence and everything. There's no doubt that the judge's conclusion

is that the victim was the victim, that the boy who did the bullying in the video that went viral, Bailey, who was befriended by Tommy Robinson, that he was also a victim in many ways of the firestorm had erupted after this story went viral. He also made it clear that Bailey had not had a racial motivation that he could establish against a Syrian refugee, which had been the original narrative that went out there.

So it was very educational, this judgment. in many ways. He'd get into the bottom of what had happened. But he also made clear that the five witnesses, which Robinson brought to court, to try and support his proposition that this Syrian refugee was the bad one of the two, that all of their evidence was lacking in credibility. In fact, he called it, he said some of them clearly invented their testimony completely. And he was very scathing about the quality of the evidence of everyone that Robinson brought there. And in the end, he found Robinson guilty.

of defamation. He find him 100,000 pounds and I think 700,000 pounds in legal costs. And he made it crystal clear to him. Do not repeat these lies about this Syrian refugee boy, Jamal, again. And all that Robinson did was go away and repeat them to absolutely everyone, including in this film, to wide audiences. And they are ultimately lies, as proven in a very forensic and extensive court case held by a very eminent. judge. So my problem with Robinson is that he's trying to portray himself as this great martyr who's been, you know, had lawfare put against him by the British establishment to silence him, when in fact it was his refusal to be silenced and to repeat lies about this young Syrian refugee

boy, which is why he's in prison. Secondly, my problem with him, Jordan, if I'm honest, is I don't know how many Americans or people in America who have been following this, because I see all the stuff on social media that just don't seem to understand that Robinson's criminal record is highly extensive and very unpleasant. So, you know, for 20 years, he's been breaking the law.

He attacked an off-duty police officer. He led a hooligan group of football thugs in a brawl involving 100 people. He headbutted a man in Blackburn. He used a false passport to get round the fact he had criminal convictions in the UK to get into America and was called. He perpetrated mortgage fraud over £160,000.

He was then found in contempt of court twice for turning up at court cases involving people who had been accused of committing these heinous crimes of grooming and raping these girls, nearly wrecking the trials because he was saying defamatory things in public outside the courtroom. And then we come to the refugee story, which is now back in prison again. and he was found guilty of stalking a journalist and accusing her partner of being a paedophile. This is not a nice guy. This is a pretty repellent human being

who also simultaneously has been right to bang on for many years about the scandal of the rape gangs. So, yes, he's complicated, but at the heart of it is somebody who I think also, just finally on the point of Robinson, two points I make, one. I think he's done this, he's monetized his hatred of Islam.

It has warped, in my view, all his so-called journalism, activism, whatever he wants to call it, because it's always skewed against Muslims. It's never fair and balanced in any way. And I think that's what tipped him over the edge with this story of this boy at the school. And, you know, on that, the bully, the alleged bully, was actually kicked out of the school before this ever got made public by the media. So they'd already had their own invent. concluded he was guilty not just of that, but a litany of other similar offences. He was thrown out.

But I also think that Robinson, and this is a slightly more complicated and insidious thing about him, I think he's been deliberately amplified and promoted by the people who have most to lose from exposure, justified exposure, because if they can make Robinson the guy that is trying to expose them, he's so discredited, particularly in the UK, that people won't take it seriously. And that's one of the reasons why there hasn't been more action is because the leading whistleblower is Tommy Robinson. So I see problems in all of this with him,

but notwithstanding, as I said at the start, I do think he's been absolutely right that this has been a massive scandal which has shamed the country and that it needs proper national inquiry to get to the bottom of it. So that's where I sit with Robinson. Yeah, well, I've been following the rape gang scandal for, I would say, 15 years.

But the primary source of information for me in Canada has been Tommy Robinson. And his insistence on pursuing this come what may was part of the reason that I looked into it. And I think that's probably the case for Elon Musk as well. And it's an open question how much of a monster you have to be. to shrug off all the accusations and the reputation savaging and the threats to your own existence and to your family's existence to sally forth regardless and bring these issues to public attention, you know, over a decade, let's say.

And, you know, it might be wonderful for us to presume that the person who does that would also be of unpeachable ethical character on all dimensions simultaneously. But we've seen the silence of people with unimpeachable characters in the face of this onslaught, and it doesn't bode well for them. And then the other thing I would say, too, this isn't exactly in defense of Robinson.

You know, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to weave my way through this. But there's another ugly issue here, Pierce, that no one will grapple with, which is, you know, you described Robinson as anti-neutral. Muslim, let's say, well, we don't really understand the relationship between the religious doctrine, let's say, and the fact of these crimes. Now, I want to make two cases here. You know, the first case is that 40 out of 50 Muslim majority countries in the world are authoritarian hellholes, and only three of them are

democracies, and that's Morocco, Indonesia, and Turkey. And, you know, they're not, I wouldn't put them in the highest echelons of stellar states. And so why is that exactly? Is that deviation from Islamic principles, or is it a consequence of them? Now, no one wants to have that discussion, and it's no bloody wonder. So that's on the negative side, let's say. And there are certainly doctrines in Islam that are very, very difficult to square with free, liberal, Western Christian democracies. And those differences aren't just apparent. They're deep. Now, I would say on the optimistic side that we could turn to Islamic leaders, like those who run the United Arab Emirates, and even to some degree now Saudi Arabia and the other and the signatories of the Abraham Accords to find a different pathway.

There have been stellar leaders, both from Saudi Arabia and the UAE, who've come out and said that publicly, very publicly, that they've got their Islamic fundamentalists under control and firmly in hand and are completely undiluted as to their danger. But Europeans are virtue signaling so hard on the progressive side that the fundamental danger from Islamic fundamentalism is going to come from Europe and the UK and not from the Arab states. Now, Tommy Robinson has been pilloried as anti-Islam, but there's a discussion to be had here. And no one wants to have it. And you know, you said we need a national inquiry. we need more than a national inquiry. We need something like an international symposium

on the relationship between the Christian West and the Islamic world because there are ugly things afoot. And they've manifested themselves in the most hideous of all possible ways in the UK with regards to these rape crimes and the cover-up. But there's something that needs to be sorted out at the bottom of all this. And one of those is like you talk about moderate Muslims. Like I looked up the polling data today that Winston Marshall, for example, referred to when he interviewed Najou Farage. And, you know, it's about three quarters of UK Muslims would be perfectly content if Sharia law happened to be the, what would you say, the principle of the day for the UK as a whole,

and that it would be fine if Islam became the national religion. Now, that's 75%. So, you know, a cynic would say, okay, just exactly where the hell are these moderates? And at minimum, their voice needs to be amplified. And then we could also point out that the participation in these rapes by members of the Pakistani Muslim community, it was like one in seven of the men in some of these communities was directly involved. And that meant everyone knew about it, absolutely everyone on the Pakistani Muslim side. And the moderates were certainly, you know, silent and complicit.

Now, obviously so were the authorities. And so that's a complete bloody catastrophe for everyone involved. But there's a serious conversation to be had in the West, and particularly in the UK, maybe France and Germany in secondary place, about just exactly how it is that liberal Western democracies, with their emphasis on the rights of women, can live side by side with Islam in general, especially the sort of Islam that's transformed into enabling fundamentalism

that allows this sort of criminality on the part of the psychopathic, resentful psychopathic sadists. No one wants to have that conversation. Listen, I think any conversation is worth having, no question. I would point out that one of the most heinous gang rape stories of modern times just got exposed in France with that poor woman whose husband, was drugging and having a rape bite. Now, what was fascinating about that from a social point of view

was just the sheer range of predominantly white local men from all walks of life who thought it was perfectly okay to go and rape a drugged woman in her bed and be videoed doing so. I found that utterly heinous and reprehensible. So it's not just like this is a problem

which is only in the Pakistani, British Muslim communities. It's not. Having said that, this is clearly... Definitely. Definitely not. But the other point I'm making, George, the other point I'm going to make on a wider point is that there are roughly, I think, about the same number of Muslims in the UK and the US. We have disproportionately higher than the US in terms of the size of our population. I think it's about five, six million in both, something around that. And it's still true that the vast majority of Muslims in both the UK and the US are not extremists,

lead their lives completely peacefully. The UK has always come out pretty much on top of all the surveys of tolerance and diversity and a good, safe, pretty good place to live. We had a big problem with ISIS extremists a few years ago, but we managed to tackle that. And thanks to Donald Trump and others in America, ISIS until recently has been,

kept very firmly back in its box and not being able to commit the same outrages. But I certainly didn't get a sense that all the Muslims in Britain were racing to be part of ISIS. They weren't. You know, the extremists, as they are in every religion, are the exception not the norm. And it's a pretty perilous road we go down. If we start to say, well, all the whole Muslim community is at fault here, which, by the way, Tommy Robinson has said, you know, after the 7-7 bombing, a few years ago on the buses and the underground system here,

a heinous series of four terror attacks in London. Tommy Robinson went up and basically accused all Muslims of being complicit, all of them, and later retracted it. But that's why, when I say Tommy Robinson is an Islamophobic, I don't think he doesn't hide it. He might deny it, but he doesn't hide it from his own rhetoric. He is somebody that despises Islam and believes that all Muslims were to blame

when there were terrorist attacks by extremists in London. And I think that is dangerous rhetoric. So I think that there is a conversation. It's clearly dangerous. It's clearly dangerous. The conversation has to be nuanced. And it has to be careful. Would you accept that?

I agree. Well, let's take... Absolutely. That's for sure. I mean, let's take it apart a little bit more then. I mean, first of all, there are reasons that the authorities were afraid to act in the manner that they should have.

Now, they were afraid partly because they would be pilloried by their confreras on the radical left because the progressives are very good at reputation savaging their own, but they're also afraid of an Islamic fundamentalist backlash and the murderousness that might accompany that. So there's a reason they're afraid. And, Pierce, you also didn't address my issue. And I'm not accusing you of anything.

I don't expect you to have the answers because this is too complex. But, you know, the fact that only three of 50 Muslim majority polities in the world states are democratic, even approximating democratic, it's like, what the hell are we to make of that exactly? Like, look, first of all, you pointed to the fact that there are psychopathic sadists, dark tetrad types, right? Machiavellian, narcissistic, psychopathic and sadistic. That's the constellation of personality traits. And that that's a human constant. It's about 3 to 5% of the population, and that's independent of race and ethnicity.

So, like, there's no shortage of bad actors, and you're right to point to that rape case in France. There were 75,000 people in the chat groups associated with that rape case, fantasizing about doing exactly the same sort of thing to their wives or to someone else's wife. There's no bottom to the darkness of the human soul, and the bloody progressives tend to be absolutely blind to that fact. Now, so you can't point to the Muslims, let's say, and say, well, that's where all the psychopaths are, because clearly that's not the case. But that does still open, it still allows this other can of worms to remain uninvestigated, which is, so 100% of Protestant or Catholic majority countries outside of Africa are highly functional democracies.

100%, 6% of Muslim majority countries are democracies. And they're not in the highly functional category. Do they want to be democracy, John, do they actually want to be democracies? I mean, we have a slightly quaint view in places like the UK, that we are the exemplar for how a country should operate. When I was in Qatar, for example, for the World Cup, the Football World Cup, I met some of the high-ranking. Qataris, including people who were related to the Emir. And they were kind of laughing at the idea that they would look at the UK as a template for how a society should exist with our knife crime, our drug abuse, our drunkenness.

I'm throwing it back at you that is that they were genuinely bemused. They were genuinely bemused that we would think here that some somehow the way our country operates is the exemplar that they should be adopting. Okay, well, so this is what I would say to that. First of all, you're right, but that also makes the problem that I'm addressing in some ways or bringing to light even more stark

because it isn't necessarily the case that the denizens of the Islamic world look to progressive Western democracies as the ideal. But that turns out to be a problem if you're importing them on mass, because their fundamental predisposition might not be democratic, and yet they're in a democratic society.

So it isn't obvious what to do about that. Okay, the next thing I would say is it's pretty bloody easy for the rich Muslim countries who are absolutely awash in, I would say, undeserved oil money to moralize about the superiority of their culture. I mean, the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia were a little, you know, fringe tribal cult

before the West stupidly dumped a trillion dollars on them and allowed them to propagandize the entire world. They would have been a backwoods Arab tribe lost in the desert forever if it wasn't for oil money. We're unbelievably naive on that front. Now, look, I do believe that the actions that the UAE and Saudi Arabia and the signatories of the Abraham Accords, the actions that they've undertaken in the last,

10 years do indicate to me that there's a pathway forward to reproshment with moderate Islam if we're smart and careful. But we should heed the warnings of the Saudis and the UAE people themselves and address the problem of psychopathic fundamentalism in our own culture. And instead, what we do is we allow them unlimited license to rape and pillage for racially motivated reasons and then hide it and pretend that it's okay. See, I agree with all that. There is a problem. I agree with all that. I agree with that.

Listen, I think it's, as you said at the start, very complex, but I completely agree with what you just said. It is completely true. We have been warned, you know, by the Saudi. We just saw that recent attack in Germany where there were explicit warnings that the Saudis made to German authorities. Yeah, right. About one of their extremists, which were not heeded. And then they reaped the appalling consequences. So I completely concur with that.

I also think that we should be encouraging. encouraging these countries like Saudi and the others to continue on the path they've been going, because ultimately that's where we would like them to go, right? Well, the alternative is war, right? I mean, that's the alternative and war of the worst kind. I mean, the UAE sheikh said directly and implicitly that it's up to the West to distinguish between psychopathic fundamentalists. manipulating religion for their own sadistic and hedonistic ends,

and the moderate, the moderate typical Muslim immigrant that you're speaking of. Well, we don't, because we're so damn cowardly, we let the, we accept the hypothesis that the Muslim community is in some sense monolithic. We don't separate the psychopathic fundamentalists. We don't separate the wheat from the chap. and then we leave the moderate Muslims in some ways at the mercy of the absolute psychopathic fundamentalists. And then we whitewash that as a kind of liberal progressiveness. And there's just no excuse for that.

And you might say, well, what's the evidence for that? It's like, well, how about the rape? We don't even know how many girls were raped in the UK. Right? The estimates range from tens of thousands to a million. It's like, really, how can you get the numbers that? wrong. How dense and blind, willfully so, how virtue signaling and cowardly do you have to be to get the numbers that wrong? Yeah, I think the reality is, I think that the numbers, a lot of

numbers have been flying around. I think it's the number of rapes is staggeringly high. The number of actual victims who were exposed to multiple, multiple rapes is undetermined, but it's not at the level that you may think it is. I think it's the volume. I think it's the volume of rapes that they believe may have been committed. In other words, these poor girls were being gang raped on a daily basis by sometimes a dozen people. So when you add up the number of times they were raped, you're getting to catastrophically high numbers. And it is utterly shameful. And the cover-up is even more shameful. And for all that reason, I think that however rough and tumble, the rhetoric may have been from people like Elon Musk this week in going after

after the leaders here, if at the end of the day it does force a genuine independent, wide-ranging national inquiry to genuinely get to the bottom of it, it will be worth it. I do believe that. Would you say the same thing about Tommy Robinson? Well, the thing I say about Tommy Robinson... I mean, because he's even more rough and tumble, let's say. Yeah, he is. I think the thing about Tommy Robinson is to be completely clear-eyed about what he is, what his record is,

and simple things like why he's in prison now. It suits him for America where he makes a lot of money, because he's been de-platformed in many places here, it suits him in America for Americans to believe he is a political prisoner. Now, I agree with Elon Musk that it is highly unusual, if unprecedented, for someone who was found guilty in a civil case of defamation to now be in solitary confinement, potentially for over a year.

In a maximum security prison. Yeah, that is a little on the odd side, you might say. I think it's unacceptable and wrong. What we don't know is there are reports, which have not been established either way, that that may be at his request for his own safety. Yeah, but I know why it's at his request, peers. It's his request because the prison they put him in is so dangerous

that if he wasn't in solitary, his life would be endangered. And that's the point I was going to make. So it is at his request. Well, yeah, I think, look, we don't know quite enough about that. I just think it is inhuman to put somebody in solitary for the length of time that they are planning to put him, given the nature of the crime he's in there for. It is, that is inhuman, it's unfair, it's unjust. And you can have that view whilst also having my view about Robinson,

that even if some of his message about the, well, all of his message about the drug and rape and boo scandal of these poor girls. All of that has been an important message to have had the drum banged by him for a long time. It's the other stuff around him, which is very unpalatable. We should clarify something about those rapes too, just to flesh out the picture on the psychological side. You know, because the terminology is grooming gang,

and then the next most accurate terminology is rape gang. But that's not right. We're still a long ways from the truth because it's not just rape. It's brutal, sadistic, demeaning, racially motivated rape with what would you say? That sadistic overlay of unnecessary torture and pain, right? So it's rape of the most sadistic and brutal kind.

This isn't date rape. No, no. This isn't, oh, my God, a relationship went wrong. It isn't misunderstanding that it's, yeah, It's brutal beyond comprehension. It is. And that's part of the details. I mean, again, in the same way that I think people should read the judgment of the Tommy

Robinson civil defamation case, because it will inform them, better than most people seem to be informed about him and his motivation for that film he produced, I also think it's incumbent on people to actually read some of the gruesome detail of what these girls were put through from the cases which have gone through the courts and led to people getting lengthy prison sentences because it is beyond belief how despicable and sadistic it was. And I completely concur with that. Jordan, I want to just ask you something completely separate,

which is Justin Trudeau, Prime Minister of Canada, an old bet noir of yours, but finally going, falling on his woke sword, the man who hechted a young female student for using the word mankind. He said, around here we use... the phrase, people kind, so we don't offend people. I think that mindset from a man who also regularly wore blackface while lecturing us all

about racism is long overdue that he's gone. His record with policies in Canada has been disastrous as well. But what is your reaction to Trudeau going? Well, I watched his resignation speech. You know, I've never heard Justin Trudeau say a true word in his entire life. I'm a pretty astute clinician and if I pay attention I can tell the difference between someone

who's merely wrong and trying his best and someone who just lies with every single breath and he is definitely a person like that. Everything he does is an act and his resignation speech was an act. You can tell because today he started out with the words well everyone knows that I'm a fighter and I don't give up and I mean Pierce I don't know about you

but I can't imagine. myself ever saying something like that in public. Who would say that? I'm a fighter. Especially as you're giving up. Really? Because you're literally giving up? It's like I quit, but I'm not a quitter.

Yes, you are. You're literally quitting in front of my eyes. Yeah. Well, and it's also the case that you saw in that opening Selvo exactly his preoccupation with himself. Yeah. It's like this is all a drama about Justin Trudeau, as far as Justin Trudeau is concerned.

You all know I'm a fighter. It's like actually, Justin, at the moment, we don't give a damn if you're a fighter. Actually, we don't give a damn about you, period. This isn't about you. It's about the fact that over nine years, you have moved Canadians from parity in terms of per capita GDP.

We were equal to the Americans nine years ago, equal. And now we're at 60%, which is also, by the way, the case for you guys in the UK. And that's 100% attributable. to Justin Trudeau and his like nightmarish, woke, leftist, weak policies. And the same, it's exactly the same cabal of self-serving narcissists that have been in power so often in the UK and that are responsible for the clamorous silence surrounding these sadistic rape gangs. And I'm so glad he's gone.

He was a curse. My country is in worse shape by far than ever, I've ever seen. it in my entire life. And we don't have any idea yet how much damage he did, because all we know is what we've heard with the liberals in power. And the true picture is going to be much more hideous than has already be exposed. And the most likely outcome is this is all going to be dumped on Pierre Pauliev, and he's going to have to take the hit for it.

What did he say? I interviewed him last week. He said, the liberals had the party and I get the hangover. And it's like, yeah, well, he'll get the hangover. the hangover all right, get blamed for it all, and Canadians are going to suffer dreadfully. And it's really awful. And it is this, it is this shallowness, this shallow self-serving narcissism that characterizes so much of the elite class, more or less across political lines, that is, well, has put Canada in the doldrums that it's in and is also responsible for the state of your country, which is dreadful. And it's, I don't know if you guys in the UK understand,

how sad it is for us in Canada and in the United States to watch what you're doing to yourself. I mean, the UK is a great country. When I go there, I go to Oxford, I go to Cambridge, to these remarkable places in London, see your unbelievable deep history, understand how much the world owes the UK in terms of, say, the establishment of common law and decent government everywhere, including places like India. we owe the UK such an immense debt. And to watch you guys like spiral yourselves into the ground

for this idiot, weak political correctness that's gone so far that you can allow your working class women to be raped en masse sadistically and say nothing about it and gaslight people who are telling the truth. It's so sickening, it's so demoralizing. It's almost unspeakable.

We all pray, hope and pray, here in Canada and the US that you get your act together and grow some spine again and put your damn country back together and stand up to these bloody psychopathic bullies and the woke green mob because it would be a dreadful shame to lose you. Well, you're not going to lose this, Jordan. There are enough of us here who still think it's a great country,

albeit we have been run by some extremely poor leaders now for a very long period of time. And that is what we need to fix. You can only fix countries with great leaders. History shows us that. So I think there's a lot of pressure now for this country to do, as you're saying, get his act together.

We are all a bit sick of being viewed that way around the world. I hear it from a lot of Americans. What the hell is happening in no country? I don't really have a good answer. Jordan Peterson, as always, brilliant to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed for coming back on on.

Hey, here's. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, man. very much for the opportunity to talk. And I wish you well and I wish all your countrymen well. I hope you guys can sort this mess out. And with a minimum of fuss and a maximum of effectiveness. You better do it quick because time's ticking. I agree.

Jordan, thank you very much indeed. We'll join me out to debate that interview with Jordan Peterson, political commentator Ava Santina, our censor contributor Esther Cracko, and the public philosopher and writer Jack Symes. And the co-host of Steve Bannon's Warham, Natalie Winters, over in the States. So welcome to all of you. Thank you for being so patient, but I thought it was important for you to listen to that interview, Esther, with Jordan, because he contacted me,

he wanted to talk about this. And he's done a number of interviews with Tommy Robinson, for example. It's an interesting argument he makes, and I don't necessarily poo-poo it at all, actually, having heard his rationale, which is you don't have to like the messenger. In fact, he can be pretty disagreeable about a number of things, which Robinson indisputably. is. But you can also appreciate that for a long period of time, we showed a clip there from 2011 on Newsnight, where Robinson was very passionate about this issue of the rape gang scandal, that this has been somebody who's been trying to persuade people to take it more seriously for a long time.

Absolutely. And I think the reason why he connects with this so much is because he's from those communities. I wrote a sort of a small piece about, imagine if this was in Lahore in Pakistan, and you had men from South Shields and Leeds, you know, raping. Pakistani women with impunity. I mean, that's the kind of sentiment it would draw. That being said, I think it's very clear that a lot of sort of his anti-Islam sentiments did colour this.

So there was a GLC-SC academic report that was released in 2020, which actually found that it was the Pakistani cultural heritage of these men that were more tied to these rapes than their Muslim heritage, because they did sort of a focus group comparing them to Bangladeshi men, who were almost exclusively Muslim as well.

And they found that Bangladeshi men were either underrepresented or not represented at all in these mass rape. So it was actually a cultural problem. And you can see it when you look at the rape of sort of, well, the situation with the rape in Pakistan, for example. So 72% up to 72% of women in custody in Pakistan are either sexually or physically abused by police officers.

The penalty for rape in Pakistan is life imprisonment or hanging because it's such a serious problem. So these sort of, it's almost like the perfect storm having these predominantly male tight-knit communities coming from a place like Pakistan that has that cultural issue already, being in the UK basically acting with impunity with regards to this, and having such close family ties as well. I mean, you know, I know this is uncomfortable.

Pakistan is one of the most inbred countries in the world. And so you have these people that have close family ties. They're often cousins or second cousins or all of that in these communities that are acting basically with each other. That's why in places like Rosh there, one in seven of these predators, what Pakistani meant. And they basically all knew each other. It was that condensed. And so I'm glad for Tommy Robinson, you know, raising this issue. However, we have to look at the facts and what a lot of this is suggesting.

This wasn't Indian men, for example, of Indian heritage, Hindu. No, no, it was very specific. It was very specific. Very specific to the British, Pakistani Muslim men in the north of England. I mean, Ava, it's an interesting, you know, I've sort of wrestled with this because without Elon Musk amplifying Tommy Robinson in the last one, week, would we be having this big new, renewed debate about the whole scandal, which many feel, including me, having studied it all, afresh again, does seem very unfinished business. In other words,

there is no accountability. No one ever went to prison for the cover-up. There are still many of the people who perpetrated this who've never been brought to justice. The council workers. Many who were supposed to have been deported have not been deported, et cetera, et cetera. There are many, many more victims likely out there. I mean, would we be having this debate right now if Elon hadn't poked his big nose in with his very powerful amplifier of his own platform and been invoking Tommy Robinson, who happens to be in prison for something else, but has been banging his drum. Well, I mean, it wasn't Elon Musk or Tommy Robinson who reignited the debate in the last couple of weeks. That was actually done by a journalist, although that's underreported on X at the

moment. I think though... But that's the point, though. It was underreported generally. Sure. So my point is it took the big clunky club of Elon Musk, the most followed person on his own platform in the world to go, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and cause outrage in mayhem and offend load to people and be very abusive about Kia Stama

and Jess Phillips and Gordon Brown and others. But did it take that to shake us out of our complacency about the scale of what has gone on here? But I don't think it's us, and I don't think that the public are complacent. I think that successive governments have been complacent. And actually, I think that this has shown up the Labour Party's cowardice, because why in earth

did it take this long for them to decide that actually they would like to implement some of the recommendations, if not all of the recommendations, a report that was released two years ago? One thing I found really shocking, it was an entire week. It wasn't until Sunday at 1pm. Did a press release arrive in my email inbox, which was from the Labor Party that said,

actually, we are going to implement these recommendations? It showed the cowardice of them, because why in earth... Why hadn't the Tories implemented any of it? No, no, but see, this is what I don't like. I don't like this, what about it? Because one thing is what... Well, surely, Valley, you mentioned governments. Which I don't think you're making, but I do think the Labour Party are making.

I think that Keir-Stama and West Streeting, how they've tried to make is, well, they didn't implement this over the last 14 years or so. And you say, okay, but great leaders don't spend their time blaming other people for errors, you know, for things that they could actually fix in their power. If West Streeting or Keir-Stama really truly believe that this was the most important issue of the day, when they came into government, they would have said, hey, where's that report? Where's Professor Jay's report?

Let's start implementing those recommendations now. Yes, I agree. Now, Jack, you've been very immersed in this subject. You went on Joe Rogan. You were personally abused by Tommy Robinson after that. You've also been very scathing about Jordan Peterson. You believe he's been platforming him regularly getting millions of views, which he has, undeniably,

and that he's been effectively enhancing Robinson's reputation in the process. the impact of his cheerleading shouldn't be understated. He's certainly cut a slightly different tone, I think, with me earlier than he has in his interviews with Robinson. And I kind of get where he's coming from to a degree. Did you change any of your view about Jordan's role and miss having heard him tonight or not? I think not.

I think he's not prepared to say anything negative about Tommy Robinson. I think that's very telling. Well, he was almost saying it's not relevant to the whistleblowing about the rape gang scandal. I kind of get that argument is that you can have a view about the reason he's in prison, which is nothing to do with that. You can have a view about his criminal past,

being a football hooligan, beating up a policeman, mortgage fraud, you know, passport stuff, all that stuff. You can have all these views about him, but you can also perhaps separate that from his relentless campaigning about what has turned out. out to be a scandal on the scale he kept saying it was.

But Jordan's not prepared to tackle Tommy's Islamophobia. It's not that he's done things in the past that are bad and they're unconnected to his anti-Islamic agenda. The reason Tommy was upset with me and started this little hate campaign of his against me was because I just quoted what he was saying on Twitter. I'll give the quote again because I paraphrase it last time. It's to be crystal clear. Tommy Robinson wrote at the end of last year,

Palestine is a shithole full of inbred Islamist parasites and terrorists now everyone who hears those words knows they're wrong Tommy himself went back after I said this and just doubled down said it's true they're it's full of

terrorists and parasites and in breads he doesn't back down on it now Jordan's responsible for this mess that's going on now and I don't say that lightly because I've spoken to Jordan for hours and in terms of philosophy of religion we get along well we have good conversations. But I think he should be ashamed of himself because in the UK we know who Tommy

Robinson is. In the US, he has been Tommy Robinson's passport to gaining influence with Elon Musk, gaining influence with all of Peterson's followers. Last year, Peterson's videos online, they amassed over 9 million views on his output on Tommy Robinson. Three hours of conversation. None of that dangerous rhetoric comes up at all. This is a former Harvard researcher. This is someone who worked at the University of Toronto. This is someone who claims to have had a keen interest in Tommy Robinson for years. Why was no question asked about that? So let me ask you a difficult question. Listen, I hear what you say and I watch the interviews and they were certainly, he didn't go into all that background stuff. Is there an argument though that if you're Jordan Peterson and you

feel as Elon must clearly does, genuinely incensed by the scale of this scandal over here? And you know that notwithstanding all this stuff that you believe the bigger picture is what Robinson has been saying about the scandal and you know he comes from Luton where a lot of his stuff was also happening and so on. Is there a valid

argument to say actually you can divorce the two things? The rest of it is part of the legacy of Tommy Robinson and it's why I have a big problem with him and why Nigel Farage won't even deal with him which should say a lot I think to people in America but that actually on this one

issue, he has been relentless, like a dog with a bone, very passionate, pretty well informed, it turned out. If he listened to the whole interview with Paxman back in 2011, almost everything he said has been borne out by events. Should we have listened more to what he said about the scandal and being less dismissive, as I've been certainly guilty of, of him just as a person? I think there's something to be said about it. I think, in short, that Tommy has shown. shed light on it. And there's no doubt about that. But I think it's interesting to look at what him and Jordan Peterson are interesting

shedding light on. They're only interested in sexual violence when it comes to Muslims against non-Muslims. But they're quite happy to stand on a stage next to Russell Brand and the like. There's no, it's very much criticize them but not the other. Who's on my team? Who plays into my anti-immigration rhetoric? I think that tells us a lot about what they really care about. I mean, to clearly, Russell Brown has been accused of things, but he has a

been convicted of any crimes. Well, Elon Musk was pictured with Galane Maxwell. That's a photo that's very easy to find if you do a quick person. I was picture with Galane Maxwell. I met her for five minutes at a book launch in 2012 or something. And that picture gets sent to me 20 times a day as evidence that I was part of Epstein's island gang. I've never met him, met her for five minutes.

There's a picture of me and her at a book launch where everyone else got cut out. So these things get, when you're a public figure of any kind, and obviously Musk is right up there, you're going to meet loads of people and get. picture with them. It doesn't mean your parties or anything they're doing. Can I add on to the back of what you had to say just then about. So what Jordan Peterson was talking about there, he was talking a lot about, you know, the Muslim faith and he was talking about how this is an Islam versus Christianity debate. I mean, in the UK...

Is he right about that? I mean, should we have a grown-up debate about the impact of so many people coming in? With a different view of perhaps democracy in those things. Well, what I was going to argue was today, the Archbishop of Canterbury steps down. and he's stepping down because he failed to report child abuse in the church. Yes. I agree. I'm a Catholic.

I wish I've made that point to Jordan, actually. Well, I'm a Catholic and I have to say the Vatican is not clear of this crime in any sense of the word. You know, the Vatican is plagued by this crime. Those are white Christian or Catholic people. You know, I don't quite, I think it's so unhelpful for us to say that child grooming is exclusive. Also, that story in France is very relevant because they were not all Muslim men doing it from a cultural religious point of view. I mean, the terrifying thing, Esther, about that story was just the randomness of who these guys were. Yeah. They were highly paid professionals. They were local farmers.

They were young, old, black, white. I mean, they were everything and anything, right? And they were all joined in this horrendous thing. Brotherhood of sexual sadism. I think the most potent point that Jordan made was kind of condensing sort of human nature in the sense that a single woman, like a woman just being there by herself is primarily viewed in nature as a target for rape. And she kind of almost speaks to the most evil and base human, or male human instincts. And I think that's cross-cultural. That transcends religion or anything like that.

I think the reason why this is such a tricky debate is because religions don't exist in and of themselves uniquely. Like religions also develop alongside cultures, for example. So the reason why, again, you see no representation of Bangladeshi, British people in these sex, these rape scandals, but you see it's almost predominantly Pakistani men. And I use the word Pakistani in Bangladesh instead of Muslim because they're both basically Muslim.

Right, it's because of the culture. And it's like a perfect story. But that's why I don't like the generalized talk about Muslims. When Tommy Robinson says after 7-7, this is my message, all Muslims are complicit. That's an Islam vote, right? There are countries with Muslims that have different cultures

to other countries with different Muslims. I mean, the Muslims I grew up in West Africa, for example. fundamentally different. I can tell you I've traveled to many Muslim countries. There's a lot of good in Muslim countries and there's some bad as there is in a lot of our Western European countries, right? You know, when I hear them talk about us, trust me, it is, it's not a compliment. Well, I mean, don't the Qataris mock us for like putting our parents in care homes when all of it? All of it is. I mean, like, I'm sorry.

They mock us for pretty much all of it. Let me bring in, let me bring in Natalie. He's been waiting very patiently over in, in Washington. Natalie, a lot of Americans seem to have a very sort of simplistic view of this, which is British multiculturalism is to blame. That's why this has happened. I would argue, having lived here all my life on and off, that multiculturalism has been very successful largely in the UK. We're known as a very tolerant and multicultural country with actually not many problems like this. This is a scandal involving a group of people from a very particular. demographic of Muslims, specifically British Pakistani Muslims, and in the same way that separately we had a scandal of extremists attaching themselves to ISIS and committing acts of terror

for a few years, and that got resolved. This has been dealt with not adequately, but will now, I'm sure, be dealt with adequately. Why should we blame multiculturalism in totality for this? Sure. Well, I don't really think that. that tolerance should be the paramount virtue if the disparate cultures that you're importing into said country or cultures that, frankly, I think, are conducive to gang raping of young girls. If you read the Quran, I mean, young women, pedophilia isn't something that's totally out of the blue. It's codified in that text. And I think why it resonates so strongly in America. And I know your analysis of it was

maybe a little bit reductive, but it's because that's the lived experience of a lot of Americans when it comes to the issue of immigration, and I think the hypocrisy where you see elites pushing multiculturalism, pushing open borders, mass migration, when they've never really made the case as to why the average American benefits from it or needs to have it. They just say diversity is our strength,

and that's where they end the sentence. And I think to that point, right, when you read the limited inquiries that they've had into the whole grooming gang escapades, what do they always say? Oh, well, the police didn't go into it because they didn't want to start race riots or race wars. I'm sorry. These are the same elites who have absolutely no qualms or no issues with bringing up, you know, racialized incidents if it's a white person being the aggressor against a minority. Just look at what happened in the case of George Floyd. So it's very selective. And I think it confirms what a lot of people think here, certainly in the United States with the agenda of certainly mass illegal. And I think we've also learned this week, legal immigration, that there is some level of replacement, I think, of American culture going on here. And they do it by importing cultures that have nothing.

in common with the West. And our leaders will say that assimilation is racist. It's neo-colonial. It's not appropriate to say that cultures that have different values and standards than us need to adopt the shared cultures of the country that they're immigrating to. So that is not a

approach to immigration that works. But isn't it undeniably true that I think the vast majority of domestic terrorism in the United States this century has been perpetrated by white people? Well, that's only because they've reworked the definition of domestic terrorism to include events like January 6th and people

who are affiliated with MAGA. So I would certainly say that their classification of what constitutes domestic terrorism is sort of cherry-picked, especially when they prosecuted or persecuted every single Jan 6th or on an individual basis. But I mean, the Biden regime just three weeks ago puts out a whole white paper a new strategy to counter Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hate. I don't really think that that's the most pressing issue going on in the United States of America right now. And I think there's two compounding issues, which is what Jordan Peterson was getting into. One is the issue of mass migration at an unprecedented number in terms of the people who are coming in. Traditionally, America would sort of have on and off periods. Now you're seeing

a numbers of migrants that are just completely overwhelming what it used to be. And there's no off periods. And you have a sort of societal superstructure and culture where you look down on assimilation. And if you tell people who come from different cultures and oftentimes it's racialized, there's a religious component to it, if they're not white, or if they're Muslim, or whatever they may be, that if you demand assimilation, you're smeared and mocked as a racist. And it doesn't work because these cultures,

as evidence is what's going on all around United Kingdom, and there's similar stuff going on here. We have no go zones in the United States too. It doesn't work. And peers, frankly, I don't think you're correct to say that multiculturalism has been successful. I think if you told the girls who were victims of violent, atrocious rapes,

I don't think that they would agree that multiculturalism has been wonderful. I don't think Blake and Ryan's family would agree. I would throw back to you this argument, which is that I got into a lot of hot water in America many years ago over calling for gun control after the Sandy Hook mass shooting, for example. The vast majority of mass shootings in America are by disturbed young white men. Should we use that as a reason to take dramatic action against all young white men?

I mean, that's the analogy I would use. Or do you accept that actually... I don't think... My point is, do you accept that they're outliers to the norm? That they are extremists, these kids committing them as shootings. Well, when one in 73 Pakistani men in that one town are engaged, I don't really even think that they're an anomaly or on the extremities. That is the mainstream culture, and it's certainly the mainstream culture when you're saying...

At an institutional level for police officers. But to be clear, to be clear, they were all almost exclusively members of the British Pakistani Muslim community. So that is a small number of the general Muslim population. Very small, actually. And so it's not pertinent to say it was a Muslim cultural problem, this scandal. It was a cultural problem amongst British Pakistani men exclusively. I don't necessarily know if that framing is correct. I think there's a racial element to it.

Well, I think if you want to have the uncomfortable conversation about Islam, it is sort of conducive to pedophilia. I mean, I don't necessarily think that you can reduce it to the idea that, oh, well, just because they happen to be, you know, Pakistani British men. Ask her it again about the white school shooters. Where I read the Quran. She didn't answer that question. It's nice to have a conspiracy theorist on the line.

It's always good fun. I hate to pull rank at you and sound like a twat, but both of my PhD are in philosophy of religion. And I think I'm slightly more qualified to speak about the Quran than you are. And to suggest even for a moment that that document allows for, if what he does is condemn non-consensual marriage and non-consensual sexual contacts. Well, I'd look up the rates of child brides then. The real risk you have in the U.S. isn't multiculturalism. multi-billionaire running the biggest social media planet, one of the biggest in the world,

which has turned into an echo chamber of your ridiculous ideology. And the fact that you're telling us all and telling the British public, who we're proudly multicultural, and as someone that was brought up in multicultural working class Birmingham, I can tell you for sure that there's not, you won't find a Muslim there, he's read the Quran and went, oh, you know what, it didn't rule out sexual violence, so I might just crack on with that. I don't know what planet you're living on or what you're smoking, but I'd suggest that you do a course in religious studies before you start chatting. Well, thank you for the ad hominem attacks. I'm sure that means you have a really strong argument, but I think the young working class girls who probably grew up in the same areas that you

did would beg to differ. I don't understand what you're saying. I've read the Quran. I've seen what's in there. Even if you don't think that my interpretation of the Quran is correct, I would point you to, I don't know, what countries have the most issues when it comes to child brides and raping of young girls and children is obviously a systemic cultural problem with Islam. It's not a problem that is contained or unique to the West. And I don't know,

last time I checked, this whole grooming gang phenomenon is what contained primarily to Muslim men and it really only started when you started seeing mass migration waves. I just think this is so dangerous. This is so dangerous what you're saying. I mean, can we, okay, so in the United Kingdom, one in three school children. I think it's dangerous

to be important. I was going to say. who are willing to rape young women. Okay. So one in three school children are sexually harassed on the way to school when they're in their school uniform. That is not done by, to use your language, by just Muslim men in the United Kingdom. That is done by all men.

That is an institutional misogyny problem. And I think we're doing the victims of sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape, a disservice by continuously just talking about Muslims as a monolith, as if they're the only perpetrators of sexual assault, it's an incredibly dangerous thing to say. I think all sexual assault and rape is bad that doesn't mean that we should continue to import people

to hire to engage in it. But it's interesting that you're only concerned with Muslims again. You know, the real issue here fundamentally in the UK and the US is less than 1% of acts of sexual violence being prosecuted. That's the big issue here. It's one of sexual violence. I actually take issue with that. I'm concerned when it's the mass importation.

and it creates a systemic culture where there are protected classes. How do you explain the Boston's sexual assault? I think the thing, here's the thing. I think the point here is that on the issue of multiculturalism, particularly in the UK, we've not been honest. So a point that you made that I think is important.

I think that's key to this. We've not been honest. There was a general terror. Actually, Jordan Peterson was right about this. The terror came from two different thought processes. One of fear of revenge attacks by extremists, which I think was very real at the time a lot of this was going on. ISIS were doing despicable things all over the country and around the world.

It gives a genuine fear that people had. And secondly, a fear of being labeled racist. Well, but this is the thing. People have such short memories in this country. The 2005 Birmingham riots were ignited because of a rumor of a black Caribbean girl being gang-raided by British Pakistani men. Right? And that was linked to the death of two men.

This idea that multiculturalism just works and you just have these, you know, fringe people, yes, usually these kinds of these riots and violence are led by fringe people. But the idea that everything is hunky-dory between communities is a complete life. No, they're not. If you look at many black British communities

in this country, a lot of their racial strife are with South Asian communities. And we've just not been honest about it. No community is blameless. No community can hold the hands up and say, we are without sin. the particularly gruesome aspects of this, as Jordan Peterson said,

is the sustained period it went on with everybody... And the race of the victims. I'm sorry, if these were black British girls and black communities have found out that their girls were being sadistically raped in this way, there is not a soul in the country that could call any of them racist for wanting justice. And I'm sorry, this boils down to the fact

that we're not honest about multiculturalism in this country. And to say that, oh, it's because you know, nobody wanted to offend the Muslims. No, it's also because the victims were white and working class, and nobody cared. Okay. The people that have to make... Jess Phillips have been arrested within 48 hours.

There's not... There have been so... Thousands of victims of these rape gangs in this country that have not even seen their attacker go to prison. So that's a big point. But why aren't we talking about the police? Why aren't we talking about the police who in that report were shown to have repeatedly failed

to take... To believe that they were credible witnesses... Some of them were tipping off their attackers. Yes, but what on earth... The police got into a conversation about them. They were blaming. They were accusing the girls of being drunk and leading these guys on. I mean, at every level, there was a systemic failure of these girls.

And that's why I think there should be a new, independent, wide-ranging national inquiry into this specific scandal, not wide-ranging into all sorts of other areas, of sexual abuse generally or whatever, make it about the gang rape scandal in the north of England and put serious people in charge who are nothing to do with politics. And let's get to the bottom of it and let's work out who got raped, who did the raping, and who covered it up, and hold them the last two all to account. I've got to leave it there. Thank you all very much. Natalie, thank you very much over in Washington.

Greatly appreciate you joining us. Thank you. Thank you all very much.