Piers Morgan Uncensored - Kevin Spacey Uncensored

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

Kevin Spacey is one of Hollywood’s greatest villains. On - and off - the big screen. He’s played a serial killer; a gangster; a supervillain; a Horrible Boss; Dr Evil; an evil grasshopper… Even Richard Nixon… American Beauty made Spacey a symbol of suburban crisis. House of Cards made Netflix a content king. But it’s Spacey’s career - and his reputation - that’s come crashing down. In 2017 he came out as gay amid allegations of sexual misconduct. He’s since faced a slew of serious claims on both sides of the Atlantic. But no court of law has ever found Spacey guilty. His supporters think he is the MeToo victim. And now, he’s ready to reveal all; On Jeffrey Epstein; On Prince Andrew On the industry that shunned him; And the claims that wrecked an Oscar-winning career… Kevin Spacey is Uncensored. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There was a frenzy in Hollywood. Suddenly you're facing a trial where someone may take your liberty away for years. And how does that feel? My goal is now to prove that I'm a man of good character. How supportive was your co-stock? I haven't heard from Robin. She stabbed you in the back? No, I will not let you get away with that.

But you're Kevin Spacey, powerful man, a famous man, a double Oscar winner, is using all that to seduce someone. Do you accept that? I can understand that perspective. by pushing the boundaries, being too handsy. Some people would say that that is criminal. Prince Andrew scandal. Famously, it was reported that you and Gilei Maxwell were invited to the throne room. This Maxwell owner, I have no relationship with her.

I had no relationship with him. Do you know who I never asked for anything? Was Jeffrey Epstein? I didn't want to be around this guy. There were young girls on those flights? There were young girls on those flights, yeah. You think you would have taken your life? I can't pay the bills that I owe.

How much money do you have? None. I don't think I'm getting the full story there, Kevin. That's because you have your newspaper hat on. I've got my new YouTube hat on. Your new YouTube hat. Kevin, I guess my first question, how are you? I'm all right.

Thank you for asking. It's been a very interesting and I think an important couple of weeks where I've had an opportunity to start to be able to talk about things that, well, for me, in some cases, I've never talked about before, and to take accountability for those places where I have behaved badly, and to hopefully put some facts out there that maybe a great majority of the public don't know about. When were you lost in a TV studio at this? I don't remember, but it's certainly, I think, the first time I've been in a TV studio,

TV studios since 2017. That's amazing. I mean, at the time you were one of the biggest TV stars in the world. And yet this is seven years later. Yeah, and I'm a little disappointed it's not bigger than this, but it's fine. But does it feel strange? I mean, you're suited and booted again, which, you know,

you probably haven't been in a studio like this, dressed like this, for that length of time. How does it feel? I suppose the biggest sort of difference that I can feel in my sense can feel in myself is that I spent so many years not wanting to talk about myself and avoiding questions about my personal life and my sexuality. And now it's just a very interesting experience that I'm the subject in many of these conversations.

I've been fortunate there's also been conversations about the work that I've done and the work that I hope to do, but it's just been unusual for me to find myself in the way to find myself in a place where I am okay with having conversations about things that for a very long time I was so determined and kept people away that I kind of feel like now I have nothing to hide and I want to live a more open life than the one that I did for a long time. How close to being broken have you been by the experience of the last seven years? There's been a couple of times when it was very deep. dark and when I was at my lowest.

What was the lowest moment for you? I think probably a few days after this all began, which was in late October of 2017. I can tell you exactly when it was, because I happened to be with you by pure chance on October the 27th, 2017, at the BAFTA Britannia Awards in Los Angeles. For Dick Van Dyke. Hosted by Jack Whitehall, an English guy. obviously and I was in the audience and you came out to present Dick Van Dyke with an excellence in television award. Dick in his 90s obviously and you said this and I only know this because I wrote it in my diary which was published in the Daily Mail at the time and you said Dick's mother

conceived him out of wedlock which was scandalous in 1925 somehow and over 90 years that's the only scandal Dick's ever been involved in even passively and I then added if the current lurid rumors swirling around Mr. Spacey are true, then very soon the same may not be said of him. And I don't know what those rumors were that I was talking about, and that's what I wrote contemporaneously. And six hours after you presented that award to Dick Van Dyke, your world basically caved in with an email informing you

that this man, Anthony Rapp, was making allegations that you had made sexual advances to him when he was just 14, more than 30 years before. And on the Monday, everything blew up. So your world literally turned upside down within hours of your last seeing it. You're very close, but it was actually, that was on a Friday night. And the article didn't come out until Sunday morning. We didn't find out until Sunday.

So it's my like 36 hours. In fact, I can tell you what happened in between Friday night and Sunday was that on Saturday afternoon, Ridley Scott showed me the final cut of all the money in the world. Really? Which was the first time I saw it. And you were then later removed from. I was later removed from, but I was incredibly proud of it. I think Ridley made an extraordinary movie, and I'm obviously very sorry he made the decision he made.

But, you know, hey, Chris Plummer is a wonderful actor. He was a friend of mine. But I'm hoping that maybe someday our version of the movie might be able to be seen. I mean, that was kind of symbolic. You pretty much got airbrushed by Hollywood. They ran for the hills. You were persona non grata. you rushed out a statement at the time,

which you've now said with hindsight was a bit of a disaster, probably on multiple levels, not least of which you came out as a gay man in this statement. And you talked about how, well, I'll read a part of it here. You said, I've had a lot of respect and admiration

for Anthony Rapp as an actor. I'm beyond horrified to hear his story. I honestly do not remember the encounter. It would have been over 30 years ago. But if I did behave as he describes, I owe him a sincere apology for what he would have, what would have been, deeply inappropriate, drunken behaviour. And I'm sorry for the feelings he describes having carried with him all these years. This story has encouraged me to address other things about my life. I know that there are stories out there about me and that some have been fueled by the fact I've been so protective of my

privacy. As those closest to me know, in my life I've had relationships with both men and women. I've loved and had romantic encounters with men throughout my life and I choose now to live as a gay man I want to deal with this honestly and openly and that starts with examining my own behaviour and that came after he had said Anthony Rapp that back in 1986 when he was just 14 that you laid on top of him at a party at his apartment

at your apartment and that this star was trying to seduce him he said he picked me up like a groom picks up the bride over the threshold but I don't like squirm away initially because I'm like, what's going on? But he lays on top of me, he's trying to seduce me. I was away, he was trying to get with me sexually. And that prompted your statement. Looking back at the whole scandal,

this seems to me the absolutely pivotal moment for you, which had you chosen a different way to handle this, perhaps there would have been a different pathway. Do you feel that? I'm not sure that I'm not sure that I, could have said anything that would have been satisfactory. I mean, I listen to that now, and it's just awful. What do you feel when you hear your own words?

Well, it takes me back to that day, that Sunday. It takes me back to the hours that we were given to respond. I mean, you know, we were given no time to respond. And the context for viewers, you may not remember, but this was the time that the Harvey Weinstein scandal had just blown up, Me Too and Times that erupted. There was a frenzy in Hollywood with all sorts of people getting dragged into this.

So presumably part of your thinking is I don't want to be one of these people. I need to deal with this quickly. Yes, and, you know, look, I have to take full responsibility for that statement. It stops with me. It was a bad statement. I should have made separate

statements about my sexuality and about his accusation. I suppose that the only thing I can hope is that now that we were able to prove in a federal court in 2022, that the accusation that Anthony Rapp had never happened did not occur, that people will understand that I was coming from a place where in my heart of hearts,

I didn't believe it had happened. I was a little bit pushed into the corner because when someone says, I mean, I don't know how you might react, Paris, but if someone says, you know, you did this thing to me 34 years ago and you were so drunk you won't remember, my first initial response wasn't to call him a liar. My first response was to ask myself, did I do something embarrassing? Now, he did say he thought I was trying to get with him sexually, but he did not in any way make any sexual assault allegation against me.

He didn't do that until he filed a civil lawsuit. And he filed a $40 million lawsuit in a Manhattan federal court, but the jury took little over an hour to come back and find you not guilty. And in closing arguments, your lawyer has said that Rapp had made up the encounter and suggested reasons why he may have done. It may be possible, she said,

that Rapp invented it based on his experience performing in precious sons, a play in which actor Ed Harris picks up Rapp's character and lays on top of him, mistaking him briefly for his wife before discovering it's his son. They came back in just over an hour and the court ordered Rapp,

the accuser, to pay you $40,000. We have a check, I think a picture of the check at the time. So it's an emphatic, clear victory for you. But it also, to me, again, when I look back at the statement you made, if you just hadn't made that statement and the way you made it, then your next few years could have been very different. I'm not saying they would have been, but they could have been. I accept that it was a poorly thought-through statement.

But again, I hope the fact that I'm not guilty of what I was accused of will at least in hindsight make people understand why I might have made it. And I also just would add that I hope that someday Anthony Rapp can accept that he had a faulty memory. That's what I would like to believe happened. Have you had any contact with him? I have had no contact with him. But I would like to believe that at some point he'll recognize that with all. all the evidence that we presented at trial,

which is why we were able to have the outcome that we did, that he will look back on this and say that his memory was faulty. And I think if he did that, that would go a long way to, I think, heal himself and also be healing from me. One of the key reasons that I think it led to in such an emphatic decision by the jury was John Barrowman, an actor well-known in the UK.

step forward for you. He was about 19 at the time, I think, and he was there at the same time. Yes. And he was emphatic that this just didn't happen. Well, he was emphatic about the fact that really the foundation for Anthony's claim was that he had gone to a party that I had thrown where he had escaped into a bedroom and that later I came into that bedroom and swayed in a doorway. Well, I had no bedroom. there was no doorway, there was no party. And the only time that he was in my apartment

was with John Barrowman after we had had dinner together and they wanted to come and meet my dog. So again, I think there must be reasons why this happened. And I'm trying, as best I can, in a lot of these cases, to seek understanding and not judgment. My best friend in this world and manager Evan Lowenstein has worked very hard with me over these. years to try to help me get to a place where I come out the other side of this, not bitter,

not angry, not revengeful, but more compassionate, having more empathy, more understanding, being more present, and working on myself in all the ways that I have over these last seven years. What was going through your head when this all was going down in the first few days? Um, because you were, you were the, you know, double Oscar winner, star of one of the biggest shows on around the world, House of Cards. And then suddenly, you know, you're talking to Ridley Scott about this big movies, everything, life could not have been going better for you. I'm seeing you in Hollywood, the toast of the town,

presenting to one of the all-time greats an award, making a funny speech, everybody laughed. You were really, I mean, pretty much near a peak of your life, I would have thought, and then bang, it's all gone. You know, it, in all honesty, In all honesty, I'm not sure that I was really able to process much of what was happening. Evan recognized immediately that I was in a very, very dark place, and he encouraged me to go take care of myself. So I immediately, really, before any of the decisions were made to punish me, I went into rehab.

I immediately, I didn't know if I was going to survive, and I just needed to go take care of myself, and I was enormously grateful that Evan encouraged me to go do that. Do you think what would have happened if you hadn't done that? I don't know. It was a very unusual experience for me, because I'd never been in therapy. I'd never looked into myself in the ways that I was being asked to.

I remember there was maybe the first or second day that I was there, one of the guys that had been assigned to me, as sort of my angel, you know, my big brother. He looked at me at lunch one day and he said, you know, Kevin, if you're going to get out of this program what you came here to get out of this program, you're probably going to have to do something you've never done in your entire life.

And I was like, oh, yeah, what would that be? He said, trust before you're ready. And he was right. I had never done that. And so that process of trusting and watching the courage and the strength that these individuals in both that program, I later went to the Hoffman Institute,

I did group therapy, to watch individuals step up and share the story of their lives. With such openness is what first gave me the courage to start to share my own. And do you pretty much be leading a life in self-denial to that point?

Well, I don't think I was in denial. I think that I was leading a relatively normal life. I was just in, I was closeted as a man, and I was fiercely closeted for a very long time. And now that I'm out, regardless of the fact that I came out in a way that was not the best coming out party ever, I would like to try to be as positive a voice for those who are experiencing difficulty in embracing their own selves and their own lives.

You see, already you'll get to be. getting quite emotional, which is completely understandable, but it shows me that underneath, you know, you've come in, you look back to your old kind of Frank Underwood look in many ways, and yet the scars must be deep. I mean, they must be hard for you. This is, this seven years you've been through. Yes, but look, I appreciate that. And there are, as I say, there have been times when it's been challenging, but there's also been times. Here's what had been incredible. You know, I have been able to witness genuine demonstrations of friendship and love.

I'm closer to my family. I'm closer to my friends. I'm closer to myself than I've ever been. Are you a better person? I absolutely believe I'm a better person. So what was the old Kevin Space you like? When you're being critical about what you were like before, the ground zero of that day in October 2017.

When you look at yourself critically, what was that person like? I think as much as I tried to be a good human being, I think that there were bouts with arrogance, there were bouts with my ego, there were bouts with, you know, I look back at times when I think, wow, I wasn't as kind as I could have been, I wasn't as generous as I could have been,

I wasn't as prepared as I could have been, I wasn't as prepared as I could have been. You know, I look back now at, I was so focused and determined on what happened on stage and in front of a screen that I missed a lot of things that were happening off screen and offstage. And now I'm enormously grateful

that my focus has shifted. My goal is no longer to be the best actor, which it was. My goal is now to prove that I'm a man of good character. And that is my responsibility every single day to show that and demonstrate that. I just want to show you a clip. This is from your two Oscar wins, because it's very unusual to win more than one Oscar. You've done it twice. Oscar is presented to Kevin Spacey and the usual suspects.

Well, whoever Kaiser Sosa is, I can tell you he's going to get it gloriously drunk tonight. And the Oscar goes to Kevin Spacey in American TV. To my friends for pointing out my worst qualities, I know you do it because you love me. And that's why I love playing Lester, because we got to see all of his worst qualities, and we still grew to love him. That's kind of ironic, I don't know what you would call it, poignant, interesting, the kind of stuff you were saying there. You were staring quite intently at it. What were you thinking? actually I travel with a number of photographs. I just always like to have photos, things from my life. And one of the photographs I travel with is a picture that was taken the morning of the usual suspects

Academy Awards. And it's a picture of my mother and me at the Ivy Restaurant on Ocean in Santa Monica. We had this wonderful brunch that morning. And when I see that, I just think, wow, that was a morning where there was possibility. I didn't think I was going to win. I was pretty sure I wasn't going to win. I was this new kid on the block. And when I see that photograph, which I see every day, I remember that day. I remember what it meant to my mother.

But I've also had to re-examine my relationship with my mother. I've had to ask questions about things that I had for a long time my whole life. never dealt with and that was that she didn't protect me from my father. I love her and I was very glad that I was able to thank her in that speech and thank Jack Lemon in the in the one for American Beauty because Jack was my was my mentor and my father figure. Your actual father was a monstrous man. I mean he was a Nazi sympathizer or white supremacist there's all sorts of epithets you can give him he was brutal physically brutal although not to you i think mainly to your brother um by all accounts an awful father to you

and when you say that your mother should have been more protective could she have been do you think or was he so monstrous that it would almost have been impossible i absolutely think she could have. And I'm not willing to remove her responsibility. I was very fortunate that my sister told me repeatedly. Don't listen to him. He's crazy. My mother's attitude was, oh, he just needs to get it off his chest. He was very homophobic as well. He was, yes. And I experienced that directly. Did you know you were gay when he was doing that? I don't think I knew what I was. I think I knew I felt things and I was emotional when I was that young.

But I, you know, I've tried as best as I can to see the journey that he took from being a medic in World War II and serving the United States as patriotically as any young soldier. had and going through his albums and going through his diaries and seeing what he wrote about what he felt when he went to Germany after the war. And the slow indoctrination that happened to him with a number of people who came into his life and how he found a reason that he wasn't able to succeed as the great creative writer he wanted to be. It's a sad and long journey, but I also need to seek forgiveness. I mean, yes, he lectured me and my sister and my brother for hours and hours and hours about his beliefs. And it was, you know, for me, I was so afraid to bring my friends home. I mean, my best friend, Mike, was still my great friend to this day.

I was afraid to bring him home because he was Jewish. And I was afraid that my father would leave his door open and he would see this Nazi flag hanging there. I was terrified of what he might say. Literally hung a Nazi flag. Yes. Yes. And so when I discovered theater in the eighth grade and debate club and, you know, choir and rehearsals for festivals

and anything I could do that kept me out of the house, kept me of having to come home, I did. And I protected my friends from that. But it's also, you know, that I learned at a very, early age that I believed that secrets kept me safe. And I've since accepted that they really didn't and they really don't. Did you ever have conversations with your mother that led to any kind of reconciling for yourself about any of this?

By the time that we started to have those conversations, my mother was suffering from a brain tumor that would take her life in 11 months. But there were moments when we would talk. There were moments when I could share with her things about myself that I never had. And I'm grateful that and I miss her. When did she die? She died in 2003. So just before I came to London to start at the Old Vic.

What have you worked out about your story? You worked out about yourself. Feels to me like you've gone on a massive journey of self-exploration. I've learned many things. Some of them had to do with the issues that have arisen. Some of them have had to do with other things, learning about myself, learning about what I was so afraid of. I was just watching a Nathan Lane got an award in New York this week from the

LGBT Q Plus community. I just watched an interview that Ian McKellon had done. And listening to both of them talk about how difficult it was for them. You know, I mean, Nathan Land is this iconic figure who worked in Broadway and a lot of musicals and, you know, had never gotten married, so, you know, people might have made the assumption that he was gay, but he was still... throughout a lot of his professional life was terrified to say it. Did that resonate with you?

It resonated with me. I felt for him because I saw myself. And just as Ian McKellen, I mean, McKellen was 49 when he came out. So it was like 20, almost 30 years that he is a professional actor. And what they all talk about is that once they did it, once, whatever the circumstance was under which they did it. They found, I mean, E. McKellen said that he felt like he was half not telling the truth, even as an actor. Now, for me, theater was an escape, because I was never being myself. Theater was this incredible place where I could disappear into or film. I could, I could become a

character. So it wasn't about me. It was actually a place to be able to hide. And now I'm like, I'm so much happier. So what they've said is true. When you come out and you can finally start talking about things you never talked about and embrace who you are, good and bad. So I'm very grateful for the fellowship that I have built through the rehab program,

the friends that I've made, the conversations that I've had with individuals I had experiences with, relationships with, and to listen and to understand, and to grow and change, and to realize that I'm not static. Let's just talk about the criminal trial you faced. You won that civil case, emphatically. You also won the criminal case. You were found again not guilty.

You know, when you mention Kevin Spacey's name, if they haven't seen any of the recent interviews you've done, you could be forgiven from a lot of the coverage about you in thinking that you must have been convicted. You know, you're not working. Your acting career has been frozen for seven years. And yet you were found not guilty in a criminal court and you were found not guilty in a civil court.

as well. Why have you been so emphatically cancelled, do you think? Oh, there are no adults in the room, to some degree. I mean, look, I'm grateful to you and people like you who have, I'm not going to say you've supported me, but you definitely have supported the idea that has surrounded me of I wasn't offered a due process in sort of the public arena. Well, you weren't. There's no question. You were found guilty by the court of public opinion, which happens so often to people in all different ways, some trivial, some serious. But I also believe just in fairness. Now, you were taken through the court process in a criminal trial and a civil trial, and you were found not guilty.

And when that happens to people, a sort of ongoing prosecution because people just want to nail you, strikes me as not very fair. Well, I think that we have experienced this before in our history, and certainly my industry has experienced it before. And even though they promised they would never allow that to happen again, I'm talking now specifically about the Blacklist, which was, you know, a lot of people talk about the Hollywood 10 and Dalton Trumbo, and we know about those people. But there were more than 479 people whose lives were largely destroyed by being accused. to being communists. And the media was a partner in that. I mean, you go and, you know, there's an incredible book about Charlie Chaplin

called Charlie Chaplin versus the United States of America. And it is extraordinary. The number of columnists who were talking to the FBI, talking to Hoover, and then writing stories about people who, I mean, Lee Grant couldn't get a job for 12 years because she wouldn't testify against her husband in front of the House. on Activities Committee on American.

And so we've seen this before, and I think that I'm not an expert in this, but what I've observed is that there is a lot of fear. People are afraid for their own careers and their own positions if they stand in solidarity with somebody who has been found not guilty. And I hope that as time goes on, that that will begin to shift in the right direction. still head on with some of the cases. One was Los Angeles masseurs, who made, who didn't want to be named, claimed that you had groped him at a house in Malibu in California, sued you for sexual battery, gender violence,

battery assault, intentional infliction of emotional distress and falls to imprisonment, and then died before the legal action reached court. What do you want to say about that? Well... Because, as you know, social media was ablaze after that. This was all obviously a sinister thing. Maybe this guy had been shut up. Blah, blah, blah.

The usual stuff. But in terms of the legality of the case, what is your response to it? My response to it is that we had irrefutable evidence to show that I wasn't even in the state of California when he made this accusation had occurred. And we were very confident that we were going to be. able to present, as we have in other cases, that evidence. I also would simply say, this was a man who was over 60 years old. And so there's lots of stories about me, you know, enjoying the company of younger men. So this was the first time I was accused of abusing a senior citizen. And, you know, we found out from his family that he had cancer prior to filing that civil suit, and he died

of cancer. And, you know, it was sad. But we never had the opportunity to go in front of the court and to prove our innocence. There have been a couple of other stories about alleged accusers who also passed away, which are entirely not true. In the first place, one of those people was not an accuser. She was a stalker. And in fact, stalked me for many years, sent white powder in the mail to the Old Vic Theater, called in bomb threats to the Old Vic Theater.

we had to evacuate the theater on a number of occasions and threatened my life. And she was arrested, charged, and convicted in a court in the United States and served more than four years in prison. And when she got out of prison, she started making more threats. And it was being examined by the court whether she was going to go back to prison when she was hit by a car and died of her injuries. And there was someone else who had told a funny story about having had an encounter with me in which I made a pass at him. He told it in a very jokey way. And then sadly, he had been an individual who had had a lot of issues and a lot of substance abuse. And he was fighting back and talking about mental health.

And he had a book that he'd written. And in that radio interview, he told this story. A year later, when he sadly took his own life, Someone then said that he'd accused me of this, that he was a victim, and there was no court case with him. There was no court case with this woman who was a stalker. So this is just internet conspiracy theories. On the criminal trial, you were charged with nine sexual offenses against four men between 2004 and 2013. And you were found not guilty on all counts.

Now, a criminal trial is by definition a lot more serious than a civil. civil case. Civil case, the bar can be a lot lower for guilt and again, we found not guilty there. When you're facing a criminal trial of that magnitude, had you been found guilty on all counts? I mean, you would likely have gone to prison for a considerable period of time. I believe so, yes. Did that thought play on your mind a lot? How does that feel? You're an Oscar-winning actor and suddenly you're facing a trial where someone may take your liberty away for years.

Only if we'd had a crazy jury. Only if people hadn't actually listened and taken the time to weigh the evidence that we presented in our defense, would that have ever been possible. But we were very, very fortunate. I had an incredible team. Evan was a part of that team, even though he's not a lawyer. But what we were able to present as facts,

There was really, I mean, look, the day it happens, I mean, the actual day where they're going to, they're going to come in and tell you what the verdicts are. Yeah, you're definitely, I was definitely like, you know, what if this doesn't go the way I hope? But as each count was read, and as each time the juror said, not guilty, I knew that we had presented the right case. And I knew that we had the evidence to prove I was not guilty of those. those things that I was accused of. Elton John and his husband David Furnish both gave witness statements Elton by video from his home in South of France. What did that mean to you to have people of his stature step up for you?

You've actually just reminded me that Elton was the first email I got on October 30th of 2017 after the rap story had come out saying we love you. you need, we're here for you. And Elton has been there, and David have been there ever since. What's most interesting about the fact that they testified in the trial in the UK was that I didn't ask them. I told them a piece of information that one of the accusers had said about them, which was not true.

And Elton and David said, well, we have to testify. And I was like, are you kidding? No, we absolutely have to testify. We have to let the jury know that this individual is not telling the truth. And they insisted on it. That's the kind of friends that I have that I've been very fortunate to have in my life.

Have you seen Elton since? Yes. What did you say to him? Well, I gave him a big hug, and David a big hug. We had a wonderful dinner. In France last summer. Evan and Lucy were there, and it was a really beautiful, it was very beautiful.

It's an old cliche that you find out who your friends are when the chips are down, but you really have, haven't you? Yes, but I also don't catastrophize about the people that I haven't heard from yet. Because, yeah, there are some people who definitely ran into the forest. But there are other people that have, you know, it took six months. It took a year. It took maybe two years. It took, you know, we're seven years.

I'm still hearing from people that I hadn't heard from. And I try not to decide what that means. You know, some people just don't know what to say. They don't know how to approach you. They're not sure you want to be approached. And so I continually find myself being very moved by people who take the time and to reach out and to find out how I'm doing. after the initial allegations from Anthony Rapp,

there were more than 50 other allegations came out and varying degrees of sexual misconduct. Like I say, you've never been convicted of any offences. When you look at the totality of all these people coming up to say, well, he did this to me, he did this to me, he groped me here, he tried to kiss me here, all that kind of stuff, I've read that you've actually reached out to some of these people

and had good conversations with them and kind of put these things to some form of closure. Is that right? It is right that I have reached out to my friends who I had relationships with or encounters with. There are a whole lot of people that have made claims that I have not reached out to. And the reason for that is that I do not

feel that I need to have a conversation with somebody who has completely reimagined an experience or have made it up. I'm absolutely 150% prepared to take accountability for those things that I did and mistakes that I made, bad, bad, bad behavior sometimes. See, what I was told, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't know you, we've met a few times, but I don't know you at all. But what I was told by people who do know you is that, in your the spian days in the theatre world

you'd put on a play you'd all go out you'd all have a few drinks you're very flirtatious and you would be quite suggestive with people and a lot of them didn't mind that at all and some people

maybe with revisionist hindsight maybe not did mind it but that you were pretty indiscriminate in your kind of borderline maybe crossing the borderline inappropriate behavior. Would you admit to that? I'm not talking about anything criminal.

Absolutely. I'm just talking about general kind of inappropriate behavior. Absolutely true. You recognize that characterization? I absolutely do. And it's important for me to recognize that. It's been important for me to understand that. It's been important for me to hear and listen to someone else's perspective,

why they didn't feel they could say something to me at the time. It's very, very important. You know, we are theater rats, you know, we become families. You, you, when you come every day, it's not like a movie, you know, where you may have a scene with somebody on one day and another scene another day.

When you're doing a play, you're coming every single day, whole company. And I've been so fortunate to have been a part of families that were being led by people like Jack Lemon. and families that I led when I was in a position. And it's an incredibly, it's very moving and it's very important. And I've tried in the workspace to not cross the line because it's always risky if you find yourself attracted to somebody you're working with.

I mean, I've seen you say repeatedly, I don't doubt this for a moment, that you believed in yourself, that there was never any kind of quid pro quo thing, that you didn't say to people, if you sleep with me, I'll help you get this job. But what your critics would say is, well, maybe not, but you're Kevin Spacey. And if you're an 18, 19, 20-year-old young male actor,

and Kevin Spacey is fluttering his drunken eyelashes at you, you know, for one of a better phrase. Yeah, that was very nice. I like that. In a way that in itself can constitute an abuse of power. even if you don't intend it to, that there is a presumption from the young actor in that position, that a more powerful man, a famous man, a double Oscar winner is using all that to seduce someone. Do you accept that?

I can understand that perspective. I truly can. But at the same time, I'm a human being. And if I fall in love with somebody across a room, then am I not supposed to go and have a conversation with them or see if they're interested because I'm famous? Because that... I mean, you know, look, there are... I'm sure you have heard countless stories

about relationships that began with one of the parties being more aggressive than the other. Well, 40% of all marriages historically began in the workplace. Historically, with an older man in a superior position to a slightly younger woman. there's just the nature of the workplace. Now it's very difficult to see how those numbers could possibly be happening because people are pretty much not allowed to have any workplace relationships.

It's been a massive societal change, which many think has gone too far. Do you think the pendulum posts me to? You were caught up in that first wave, a hysterical first wave that saw many people taken down, but do you think it's gone too far? Well, I could say yes, and not just in my particular case. There have been others that I feel, you know, they may have been inappropriate. They may have done something that they wish they hadn't done, but I didn't think that what it was and maybe what they even admitted to was so heinous that they should have lost their career or their ability to make their livelihood. I think that is too far.

But I also think we have to be mindful that it doesn't swing back too far in the other direction because You mentioned in 2017, the Harvey Weinstein investigation, I think had impact. I think me too had impact because the New York Times, its journalists, its editors, Ronan Farrow, and the people he was working with, they investigated those claims for more than a year before they went to print. they were confident at what they had. Did you know Harvey Weinstein was that guy? Sure, yeah. You did? Yeah, I did a couple movies from Miramax.

But did you know what he was like? I knew I knew I had a lot of arguments with him, but I didn't know anything about what was going on privately. No, not at all. People have tried to lump you in with him. How do you feel about that? I try to understand that people want to resolve things. very quickly and all I hope all Evan and I have been working on for a long time is

asking people to ask questions to find out to not believe a headline that you might read I mean I you know I see all kinds of things that people say they believe is true and there's no truth to it whatsoever when you yourself as did a few minutes ago you talk about bad behavior that you committed what do you mean by that? What's your idea of bad behavior when you look back at what you were doing? Pushing the boundaries? In what way? I mean, being too handsy,

you know, touching someone sexually. Groping people. In a way that I didn't know at the time they didn't want. Yeah. Some people would say that that is criminal. That if you grope people in a sexual way against their wishes, that that is a crime.

I agree that the word grope is a very odd word. I personally, I have caressed people. I have been gentle with people. That is the way that I am. You're making a pass at someone. You don't want to be aggressive. You want to be gentle.

You want to see if they're going to respond positively. So I think the word itself is not a word that I associate with my experience. But would you say all of that was consensual, or was it seduct, an attempt? at seduction that if it was repelled, by definition, becomes, I guess, nonconsensual. That if you're being hansy, if you're groping people, and they don't want to do it. Then they should let you know they don't want to do it so that you can understand it's non-consensual and stop.

So that brings me back to the point I made about if they're a young male actor and it's Kevin Spacey and he's had a few drinks and they're in the bar that at night and he gropes young male actor. and they may feel they don't want to be part of that. They don't like what's going on, but they don't want to tell you because you're Kevin Spacey and it might damage their career. Do you understand how people could think that if they were young and impressionable

and keen to get on in their careers? When you reflect on those moments. Yes. And again, recognizing that, understanding that, and making a vow that that will never happen again for the rest of my life. I will never behave in the ways that I did previously, ever. How hard has that made it for you to get a relationship? It's a good question. I...

Are you in one now? I'm not in one now. Have you had any lasting one throughout this process? Yes. It's been possible. Yes, I think... Because it must be incredibly difficult on two weeks. levels. One, Kevin Spacey with all these headlines and court cases and so on, which must be a deterrent to a lot of people.

Secondly, you must be hesitant in yourself about making a move with anyone. Well, if I've learned anything, I've learned that a first move doesn't have to be physical. And so there are ways to make a first move and find out if someone is interested or not. But I also believe that many people, they judge another human being from what they experience. And so I am hopeful. And I believe that I will be able to meet someone who is willing to judge me for what they experience. Could you trust someone? Could you trust someone enough, do you think?

I absolutely believe I can. I don't want to go through my life thinking everyone's out to get me. I mean, that would be a terrible way to live. You'd like to fall in love and maybe get married? Is that an aspiration? I think being in a relationship, let me start there. Being in a relationship, don't get me married right away. Being in a relationship would be incredible.

Because the thing that I think I know now, even though I knew it before, is that not being in a relationship just means that, You don't have an opportunity to share what you're going through and the changes that you're making and how your life is evolving with another person. And when I've been in relationships, the thing that I always have loved the most is that I think for two instead of for one.

I was very struck recently by public statements of support for you from a number of public figures, but several that I knew. I know. Liam Neeson, I know a bit. Sharon Stone I know better. Liam Neeson told the Telegraph, Kevin is a good man, a man of character. So he was deeply saddened to learn of new allegations against him.

We'll come to that. This was the Channel 4 show, obviously, the documentary. He said that Space is one of our finest artists in the theatre and on camera. Personally speaking, our industry needs him and misses him greatly. And Sharon Stone said, I can't wait to see Kevin back at work. He's a genius. He's so elegant and fun, generous to a fault. He knows more about our craft than most of us ever will.

She added, it was clear young actors are wonderful. and want to be around him. It's terrible they're blaming him for not being able to come to terms with themselves, for using him and negotiating with themselves because they didn't get their secret agendas. What do you feel about Sharon's last sentences? Well, I think Sharon is making that comment based on having looked at the Channel 4 documentary. Right. I think she specifically is talking about what that was about and what those claims were about.

And I'm enormously grateful. Not easy for people of that stature to stick their head over the parapet and take the flack, which you're never to be... Well, first of all, they didn't get any flack. They really didn't. No, I know. And second of all, I'm enormously grateful to them. And I just have to say, I know I mentioned them a couple of times, but I hope you're understanding why I am. that as happy as I am for these individuals who've stood up so recently,

there's been one person standing up from the very beginning, and that's Evan Lowenstee. And I would not be here without him. You really feel that? Absolutely. I owe him everything. You think you would have taken your life? I want to live. I do want to live.

But there were times when I wasn't sure if I would make it. The Channel 4 shows Spacey unmasked. Did you watch it? I've seen portions of it, but not the whole thing. You were never asked to do an interview. No. It seems extraordinary, given the nature of the allegations. You were given seven days to respond in writing.

And you were just given a fait de complete yes or no. Did you or did you not do the things that were being alleged? Right. Again, it doesn't seem a particularly fair process. Well, I think that, you know, Channel 4 announced this documentary in 2022, about four months before we started the rap trial in New York, and a year or so before the UK trials would begin. We were then sort of, we heard that after the UK verdicts came in,

that they were having a rethink. And I guess what they decided to rethink was, oh, we've gone, we've started this documentary. They'd already started it. So they'd spent money that they were going to make this as they claimed a conversation about bad behavior, inappropriate behavior in my life. And that that was what it was about to have a public conversation. And so they went out and they found a number of individuals to make a number of claims. Well, one of them was a secret service agent from the house of cars called Daniel.

We've got a clip of something he said in the documentary. I leaned in because he was saying something to me, and then I felt something tickled me just right below my zipper. And I was like, what? I looked down and I see that it's his finger. Yeah, no, his hand touched my penis. Wasn't like us playing around the locker room, a little joke or a little tap. It was sexual.

I was touched. I was inappropriately touched on set at work. He just had these real dead eyes looking at me. And I just felt like I was staring into like a soulless monster. Now, he worked on the show for four years. What's your response to that? What do you feel about that? You know, I know who that is.

We had a lot of fun together. When he left the show, we were emailing to each other. In fact, in one of our flirty emails, which we had, I asked him to send me, he was talking about working out, he was getting buff, and I said, oh, send me a picture. And he sent me a couple pictures that were naked and provocative. We've got them. Yeah, that's one of them.

So he voluntarily sent you those. Yeah, he sent me these. This is now, this allegation he makes. I believe was in 2013 because I know the scene he's talking about and I know when we shot that scene. And this is now 2016. So that was 2013. This is now 2016.

And we're like talking about getting together and he's sending me these kind of pictures. And you just go, okay, so which is true, Daniel? I think it's very clear what's true. And by the way, can I just also say, I don't know why Channel 4 has not yet told the British public if they paid these individuals to tell these stories. My brother's been paid a number of times for telling false and crazy stories.

So we know that they approached people and said they would pay them. So did they pay these individuals for telling these stories? Did they know about these pictures and the emails and years off? How could they? No. What they did was instead of coming to us in a reasonable fashion and saying, listen, we're thinking of airing this thing in three months or four months, we want to give you an opportunity to respond to these.

I would have then gone and found those emails. I would have shown them those emails. We would have said, guys, if you're going to present a story, present the whole story. I mean, just coming to this cold when I saw the evidence that you provided, just seemed completely ridiculous. If he's doing that three years later, how traumatized can he really be by what he claims happened in this incident in 2013? There are a number of others in the Channel 4 documentary

whom we have also found exchanges between me and them, and in one case, years after. Well, we have an example, a former Marine called Scott, who alleged this in the documentary. All of a sudden, there's some activity happening next to me and kind of glance over, and Kevin's just pleasuring himself. You know, some of the most horrific war footage ever recreated. Like, there is no way that this is happening.

That this guy is rubbing one out during the invasion of Normandy. And finally, he reaches over and grabs my hand and tries to get me to help out. I was like, no, this is crazy. So he's a gigantic Marine. presumably is fought in walls. But there are some salient points about this. I don't, apparently, you've never seen saving private rights.

No, I haven't. So why is he saying this? My last question, did he get paid for telling this story? I don't know. What I do know is that he claimed that this incident at the movies happened in 1998. I have an email from him in 2011. I have an email from him in 2013, in which he's not only in the 2011 one,

says how great it was to see me when I was just in Los Angeles, and I know I'd gone to Los Angeles at some point during the tour of Richard III, we apparently went to a play together, and he looked forward to seeing me again soon in the future. Again, to me, this is ridiculous. To you, it could have been life, I mean, it has been life-wrecking, But coming off the back, what was interesting to me, coming off the back of all these court cases you've been involved in,

the reaction to this documentary was very interesting. You actually began to get a lot of support from journalists and then from people like Liam Neeson, St. Sharon St. Stair and others who just saw through a lot of what they saw to be nonsensical. People who were victims of what they claim to be, I don't think a Marine voluntarily sends the cheery emails he's sending you years later. If he genuinely experienced some great trauma, watching a movie you say you've never watched. Right.

Yes, you know, I mean, Channel 4 presented this as if this was some deep dive, some, they called a forensic investigation. And at the center of this documentary, they used my brother. Now, my brother moved out of the house when he was 17. I then moved to New York to go to Juilliard when I was 19. And in all the years since, which is nearly 50 years, we have seen each other, even he admitted, maybe four times. And he sold stories about your mother. Sold stories, that means, yeah, what he's done to hers is terrible. What he's done to me, doesn't matter.

The guy who drove me here, the Uber that you guys sent, I know that guy better than I know my brother. And he's out there telling all these stories and talking about how he knows me. So that's the armchair psychologist that you use at the center of this documentary. And then they go back to 48 years ago when I was in high school when I was 17 years old.

Guy makes a claim that I grabbed his junk while we were driving in a car. I mean, I did a lot of embarrassing things when I was in high school. But how can you possibly refute that? I mean, you could say it didn't happen. I did, I didn't say it didn't happen. I said it's possible that might have happened.

I did a lot of embarrassing things in high school. We all did. I mean, they could go back to junior high when I pulled Stephanie's hair in the seventh grade. I mean, Channel 4 said to CNN, Spacey our master is an important film exploring the balance of power and inappropriate behavior in a work environment,

aiming to give a voice to those. those who've previously been unable to speak out. What would you make of that statement? It's embarrassing. I mean, had they had all this material that we've now been showing viewers, it's impossible to see how Channel 4 could have put out the same documentary.

As a former newspaper editor, I wouldn't have done. I would have said, hang on, this one's been sending him pictures years later. This one's been sending him friendly emails, wanting work, wanted to work with them again. none of that makes sense. I don't know you that well, but I do know facts when I see them. And I was actually annoyed on your behalf. I can't even imagine how you felt. Because it seemed to me like a, well, a bit of a stitch up. Like there was a wish to take you down, overriding what had already happened in a criminal court and a civil court.

Well, I appreciate that that's your perspective. That's purely on what I've seen, right? That's just just with my journalist's head on, just looking at stuff and saying, this doesn't make sense. Notwithstanding that, you have, you know, you've been pretty honest about the inappropriate bad behaviours you put it,

the groping, which many times would have been unwanted and was rejected. And people will make a judgment about you about those admissions. I don't think you're trying to betray yourself as some angelic character. And nor do I think you were, right? I mean, this is, you know, I didn't see you in those days.

When I saw you at a party, you certainly didn't do that to me, Kevin. In fact, we met at a party in 2009 just after Obama got elected. And it was quite interesting. It was a mutual friend of ours, Matthew Freud, at one of his legendary parties. And I asked you, came over and I said, are you happy Obama won? And this is quite prescient in a way. You said, oh, my God, I'm so happy. At last we have someone who can stop the rest of the world.

thinking all Americans are completely bonkers. Well, look where we are now. But I guess my point is that I absolutely can have sympathy with you for what I see is an overreach by the media where they haven't got the whole story and perhaps if they had, they would have done these things a different way. And I can also see that by your own admission, your behavior was extremely inappropriate and some people would view it as more serious than that. I think that's my kind of overview of your behavior through that period.

That, you know, these things may not have been true, but other times you did stuff you wish you hadn't done, and it was non-consensual and shouldn't have happened, and times have maybe changed pretty dramatically now, where maybe you wouldn't behave like that. Well, regardless of the times, I am not going to behave. that way and I would now we're at a place where okay what next I mean I'm trying to seek a path of redemption I'm trying to find a way to return to what I love doing

which is to be a full-time working actor and have you had any calls since this strange period we're actually far from Channel 4 nailing you back to the cross. Actually, you've had a lot of sympathy, a lot of support now. A media narrative is changing quite significantly. Big famous stars coming out and supporting you. Has that made any impact on your employability now? You're getting calls?

Yes. Yes. I think that what we've been able to see, Evan and I, that's watched because he gets all these offers that come in, is that now directors, fellow actors, producers, producers, financiers are so excited to work with me, are so pleased to offer me something. And then we get into the exhibition part of it

and the streaming services or the studios or the distributors. And what we tend to see is that everyone's on board and then one person, some executive, somewhere says, oh, our audience, you know, a lot of our audience is going to be upset if we buy this movie. And I would only ask, who are you speaking for? Because I don't think that, I would like to think that the people that stopped me on the street and have stopped me for the last seven years have been so generous and so wanting to know when I'm going to get back to work,

that I think that these executives are attempting to speak for all of the British public or all of the American public. And I think that I hope that that begins to subside because I do believe that the majority of people would like me to get back to work. I want to talk to you about something slightly left field, but your name was attached to another big scandal, which was the Prince Andrew scandal. And famously, it was reported that you and Gilein Maxwell were invited to the throne room by Prince Andrew.

It then got briefed that you may have been the one who invited Gilein Maxwell. Wow. What was the truth about? I hadn't heard that one. This is the throne room at Buckingham Palace. Just to be clear, who invited who to this? Well, let me try to put this in context. Before I even get into that, in 2002, I got a call from President Clinton,

who I had become friends with over many years, inviting me to come with him on an eight-day humanitarian trip that he was going to make to Africa and South Africa. And I thought it was an incredible opportunity. And apparently, he was not having great success with getting people to say yes, because it wasn't like one night in New York. It was eight days in Africa and South Africa.

that it was primarily to raise awareness and prevention for AIDS, and particularly for mothers who had HIV to get the medication they needed to not pass it on to their children. So I said yes, absolutely. And in September of 2002, we took off from New York and we went to Ghana and Mozambique and Zimbabwe and Rwanda and Johannesburg and Cape Town. And this was one of the most of the most most incredible experiences I've ever had. The doctors and nurses that we met, what we learned about how they were treating patients, the economic development that the president was also talking about

in terms of Africa and where it was going to go in the future. The people we met, we spent a day with Nelson Mandela. It's one of the most extraordinary. Just an incredible trip. It meant so much to me. And then the president was invited by Tony Blair to give the speech at Blackpool and the Labor Party conference that year. What was that? So we flew then to London.

And the president said to me, before we leave tomorrow, you won't come. I'm going to go to Buchan Palace tomorrow and see Prince, Senator. You won't come? So I said, sure. So I'm a part of the president's party, and there must have been, I think there were 21 guests of the Clinton Foundation when we went to, Africa and South Africa. So it was like 18 or so people came to Buckingham Palace that morning. And we were wandering through and there were people brought us into the throne room and I sat down and a bunch of people came and sat down next to me and a bunch of pictures were taken. And then we went up

and we met Prince Andrew. I'd never met him before and have not seen him since. So that's the context. Then president and I went up to Blackpool. In 2015, I started seeing reports online, things on my Twitter account that I had flown to this guy, Jeffrey Epstein's island, and I had abused young girls. And I was like, I mean, if you'd asked me in 2015, maybe even if you'd asked me in 2002, did I know a guy named Jeffrey Epstein? I probably would have said no. Well, of course, I have since learned who he is, and I have since been able to go back and find out that the airplane, that we flew on for this humanitarian mission was owned by Jeffrey Epstein. And to then learn, oh, he was actually on some of those flights.

And this Maxwell woman was on some of those flights. I didn't know him. I've never spent any time with him. I was with the Clinton Foundation people. That's who I was with. Now, what I understand is that he didn't start to be investigated until 2005 by authorities in Florida. So here's what I can tell you.

This Maxwell moment, she was one of many people who sat down next to me in that throne room. I have no relationship with her. I had no relationship with him. I mean, he's not my friend. I'm not a confidant. I've never spent time with him. And interestingly, I will say this. I was very fortunate that President Clinton introduced me a lot of business leaders in London because he knew I was coming to the old Vic. And I developed relationships with Robert Earl, Pula Ludovie. Dobavich, a lot of wonderful people, Richard Caring, people who supported the work that we did at the old Vic and gave money to us. Do you know who I never asked for anything was Jeffrey Epstein? I didn't want to be around this guy because I felt he put the president at risk on that trip to South Africa because there were these young girls. And we were like, who is this guy?

So I will say this. There were young girls on those flights. They were young girls on those flights. Yeah. And that's been out. They've talked about it. But here's my point. There's a big difference between not remembering that I met some guy and some woman on a humanitarian trip where my focus was entirely on what we were there to do and not remembering whether I went to somebody's island. So I never went to Jeffrey Epstein's island.

I did not know him. And I never saw him or her after that morning at Buckingham. He didn't even come to Buckingham Palace if she was only there. It's true that Prince Andrews sought your assistance and wanted you to testify that Gilay Maxwell was your guest, not his, during that Buckingham Palace talk. I heard a report about that, but at no time did anyone ever contact me on his behalf. And as I say, I'm not friends with him. I never saw him after that day. What do you think about what's happened to him?

I mean, I don't know anything about it. It's not, I'm not going to talk about someone else's scandal, you know. My point is that I had enough accusations of my own to deal with. I don't need to inherit someone else's. The person I'm told has been very supportive to you in the royal family is actually the king when he was Prince Charles. Is that true? That is true.

We were very fortunate that when he was the Prince of Wales, he loved the old Vic. He believed in it. His grandmother had been the patron there for many years. He came to see our productions. And I was always honored to be able to do what I could for the Prince's trust. And I wish him all the best with his health. And when your troubles started when the scandal blew up, he did reach out to you.

No, I haven't heard from him directly now. But through other people? That may be true. Go on, Kevin. You'll know whether that's true or not. Well, he's now the king of England. I do, but, you know, when you start paying your guests, Paris, then you're going to get the...

But he did contact you. No, he did not contact me directly, no. But he said a message to you. I heard a message, yes. And I'm very, very grateful for that. A message of support. Yes. That must have meant a lot to you.

Yeah, but look, I don't want to drag him into all this. You know, he's... He's... Well, many people... think it was a good thing for him to do? Well, I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying that, you know, he's got a lot on his plate and I wish him the very best. But it was a message he wanted you to hear.

I can't tell you what he was intending. I don't think I'm getting the full story there, Kevin. Well, you know, that's because you have your newspaper hat on. Well, I've got my new YouTube hat on. Your new YouTube hat. Yeah. Because he knighted you. He did. He did.

I'm very grateful for that. Other people have had knighthoods to take it away. That hasn't happened. Do you know it has not? Are you pleased that it hasn't? I don't know why it would. But I can tell you that I was very touched by the fact that because when the queen was with us, we're sad that she's not,

there was always a day where she would do it. And it just so happened that I was working on that day. And so I guess what they normally do is they would mail it to you. But Prince Charles, King Charles, said, no, no, I want to give it to him. So he organized a ceremony at Clarence House that was a very, very moving day. Do you remember what he said to you? He was just very pleased that I had done the work that I'd done. Mother really loves what you've done in the Old Vick, and it's wonderful.

Mother what? Mother loves what you've done with the Old Vig. With the Old Vig. Marvellous, mother. You had the Queen's backing. Your work at the Old Vick. That's quite something. Yeah, well, it was quite something.

Are you a monarchist? Do you believe in the Royal family? I do. I do. How do you think he's doing? Obviously, he's got cancer very sadly, but he's still out there doing his duty. I think that he has, I mean, first of all, I think that he has done such an extraordinary job. I think that it's been so wonderful to see that the British public has been so supportive of him. You know, a beautiful coronation. And he's, you know, he's in many ways that the man he always was.

And I think there were a lot of doubters. But if he watched what he cared about, what he fought for, the kind of work that he did with young people in education and the arts, all of these things that he continues to do, even though now the Prince of Wales is running the Prince's Trust. I think there's an enormous amount to admire about this. Have you written to him since he exceeded to the throne? I have written to him, but I haven't sent it yet.

Really? Why? I just... You know, sometimes you're just waiting for the right moment. But I did write to him. You're here in the UK. Yes. We're literally about three miles away from where he's probably currently standing. Yeah, but I don't know that he opens his own mail.

Somebody will for him. One of the big things for you, obviously, Netflix, House of Cards, they basically froze your appearances in it and then throws you out. together. What are your feelings towards Netflix? Well, I haven't next flicked and chilled for a while myself, but... You don't watch it anymore? I just, I just haven't. I just haven't used Netflix. I've been kind of the, you know, no, I think I've watched a few things.

Certainly during the pandemic I was watching, but I've just been a little too involved in other things. Would you feel they let you down? So you're under the bus too early, which had waited for you to get through the system? I think that we had a really remarkable relationship, and I think that there is no doubt that House of Cards really put them on the map. And, you know, even though they made the decision they made, which I think was a strange decision, A wrong decision? I believe it was a wrong decision.

I believe it was wrong for them as a company. I believe that it put them in a position where then anyone who was ever accused of anything, they had to respond in a similar way, although it does seem with Dave Chappelle that Ted Sarandos has learned to be supportive of controversial individuals. Do you wish she'd done that for you?

I do wish he'd done it with me. And I believe that part of what ended up happening as a result of them, in a sense, getting rid of me so fast was they send a signal to everyone else. Well, they had this long relationship. They must know what's real. And they didn't know anything. And they didn't wait to find out what it was that might be discovered. Have you heard from Ted since? No, I have not. And I hope that at some point, when all of the dust settles, because there's all these confidentiality agreements. I hope that someday the public will be able to see what it was that I was accused of

on House of Cards and can decide for themselves whether it was deserving of losing that role and losing that series. How supportive was your co-star? I haven't heard from Robin. At all? No. Nothing? Since when? Since September or October of 2017? Since it first blew up, you've heard nothing at all. Wow. Look, I understand. Do you? I do. I think that by distancing herself from me, it allowed her to not have to answer a lot of questions.

And I understand that. But look, you know... What would the questions have been? I'm sorry? What questions? Was she avoiding by doing that? Oh, having to answer questions about me. Right.

So I think by saying that she didn't really know me. Right. Did she know you? I think we knew each other rather well, yeah. Good friends? I believe so, yes. I had a marvelous, wonderful time working with her every day. Did you ever see her socially?

Yes. Sure. For what? For dinner? Well, I mean, I've known when she was married to Sean Penn for many, many years. We go back a very long time. We did a movie together many years ago called Her O'Reilly. Burley, so we've known each other very long.

I mean, she made out she pretty well barely knew you, outside of work. I understand. But that's not true? Not in my opinion, no. Do you feel let down? No, as I say, I'm trying very hard to not be judgmental and to try, even if people do things that I don't understand, to try to seek understanding about it and not judgment.

You know. And she went on to carry on with the show. She did. making a lot of money from a show, which you helped make one of the biggest shows in the world. She did. She deserves everything that she's been offered. She's an extraordinary talent. Would you like to see her? Would you like her to conti? I adore Robin, and I think that the thing that made me have so much of a good time on that show

was making Robin laugh, and we laughed every day. And then she stabbed you in the back? No, I will not let you get away with that. Absolutely not. I'm suggesting you. No, well, and I reject your suggestion. Well, I don't know you know. I'm a different view. She is a wonderful person and a wonderful actress. And it was a very difficult time. The fact she's never once made any attempt to contact you, I find extraordinary.

That's all right. You can judge it if you choose to. I'm not judging. I'm trying to be understanding. I know her a bit. I'm just very surprised that that is the case. It seems extraordinary to me. that you could work with somebody so closely and be so successful together. And then at the first sign of any scandal, you don't wait to see whether the scandal is actually borne out by any conviction. You just convict and move on. Well, you know what? We're not done yet. Life goes on.

So we'll see what happens in the future. You're still facing some legal jeopardy. One of the people in the criminal case is taking a civil action against you. It does feel like it's never ending this. Does it feel like that for you? There are some days where you're just like, what? But I truly believe that we are rounding a corner. What do people say to you when they see in the street?

It moves me so much that people take the time to ask me how I am. They talk about movies. They talk about characters. That's when I feel like, wow, I did my job in that one because they're talking about that person as if that person is real. They're using that character's name, not me. And people have expressed such concern and hope. And they just want me to get back to work.

And I'm with them on that. There's a little bit of you, you know, we saw the clips with two Oscar wins. Many people think you're one of the greatest, if not the greatest actors of your generation. You've been deprived from doing the thing you love. Does a bit of you dream of winning another Oscar, standing there and the center of Hollywood again?

Without being a pariah? You know, you're just trying to get me married off again. You know, look, what I hope for is that I have the opportunity to continue to tell stories because that's what I feel I was put on this earth to do was to tell stories. And if I'm lucky enough to have collaborators who are inspiring and excited to work with me and come together and we put all of this in the past and I'm able to come on a film set and make sure that everyone's having a good time, make sure that that people are getting what they need to do the best work that they can,

and that I'm a part of making sure that everyone is treated right. And I've learned from my own mistakes. That will be a very good day. And whether there's an award that happens at the end of that, that's for others. And what would you say if there are young actors who had a bad experience with you, genuinely, over the years, by your own omission when you behave badly, inappropriately.

What message is there watching this? What message would you have specifically for that? You're asking me to answer a very broad question as if every single encounter I ever had in my life would allow me to want to say something to all of those people. Well, no, let me be specific. Yeah, if you're more specific, I think it's easier to answer that question. So specifically, when you said you know there were,

times when you behave badly. Yes. When you made, when you groped people when you shouldn't have done. When you were too handsy when they may not have wanted you to be. Those people. The ones who genuinely didn't want you to do that felt bad about it. What do you say to them? I do not speak to them on television.

What I do is I speak to them directly in person. And we have an intimate and genuine conversation. Have you been doing that? I have been doing that. With how many? With quite a few? I mean, 10, 20, 30? No, I'm curious.

I'm not going to go down that road. I appreciate while you're asking. But a significant number? But a significant number. Not just a handful. No. And I would simply say this, those conversations have been incredible. I think to put me in a position where you're now asking me to make a PR move is just not something I feel comfortable doing.

I understand. I am very, very... I'm actually more interested. that you've been having the private conversations with these people. Yes. And they- What approach do you take when you have them? They're private conversations in Paris.

I can just tell you that I'm grateful that people are talking to me. I'm grateful that they're sharing what they're sharing with me. I'm learning. I'm growing. And you know what? About the work, it never stops. I will be doing this work for the rest of my life. You mean on yourself? On myself.

This is not something you go off and you get a diploma and then you're get a diploma and then you come back and say, look at me, I did all the work. I mean, what's not funny because of the circumstances, but what's kind of ironic is that you were famously a very private guy. You said that at the start. If I'd interviewed you 15 years ago, we would not have been going anywhere near any of this stuff. We also would have been 10 minutes. Right. No, no, literally. I mean, you would not have subjected yourself to such a forensic conversation about you, your character, your life, your mistakes and so on. Is it quite cathartic to be doing it. How do you feel now? We've been talking for an hour and a half, maybe.

How do you feel about it, the conversation? Honestly. I am, it's like a weight is lifted off my shoulders because I'm okay to talk about these things. And I wasn't for a very, very long time. And I don't want to miss out on things that I missed out on before. As I said, Now I want to focus on the things that happen off screen and off stage, much more than I focused on them in the past. And I'm blessed to have people around me who believe in me, and I'm blessed to have been able to learn what I've been able to learn. Can you imagine if I didn't learn anything?

If it was seven years, then I learned nothing. I wouldn't want to be alive if that were true, but I very, very, very much am so grateful that I am alive and I got through this and I'm coming out the other side of it. Where'd you live now? Well, it's funny you ask that question because this week where I have been living in Baltimore is being foreclosed on it. My house is being sold at auction. Really? So I have to go back to Baltimore and put all my things in storage.

Really? So the answer to that question is I'm not quite sure where I'm going to live Now, but I've been in Baltimore for since we started shooting house of cards there. So how long is that? I moved there in 2012. So this has been your home for 12 years? Well, not this particular place, but this place has been my home and Evan and Lucy's home since 2016. Why is it being full closed?

Because I can't pay the bills that I owe. Are you facing bankruptcy? Been a couple of times when I thought I was going to file, but we've managed to sort of dodge it, at least as of today. How much money do you have? None. Really? Well, I mean, you know, you have some sense of legal bills. Yeah. I still owe a lot of legal bills that I have not been able to pay.

You're actually in debt? Yes. Do you mind me asking how much you are? It's considerable. Millions? Many millions, yes. The house itself is many millions. What are you going to do?

Get back on the horse. Get back on the horse. I wish you all the best in getting back on the horse. Thank you. It must have been a nightmare to live through it. And I don't say that because I think you've been completely blameless. We've discussed by your own admission, the flaws that, led to your behaviour and so on, but I do believe in fairness, and I just think that you've not

been convicted of any crimes, either in a criminal court or a civilian court. And at some point, society has to recognise that. They may have their own view about you, good, bad or ugly, but there has to be a sense of fairness about it. And the fact that you're now losing your home and you have no money and you owe millions and so on, I think people will watch this whole interview, and I suspect they'll reach the same conclusion I am, but this is too much. There's a wonderful story that is about one of the Hollywood Ten,

and there was that Dalton Trumbo, was rejected as everyone was, by the unions, by the motion picture producers, by the director's guild, by the writer's skill, everybody. And he had to work for many, many years, writing under a pseudonym It's the only way he could work was to use a different name.

So he didn't get the credit on a movie that he actually wrote. Some other invented person got that credit. He got paid. And then one year, a remarkable man in my business, who was an icon and a producer and a movie star, stood up and said, enough is enough. And Kirk Douglas said, Dalton Trumbull's name is going on Spartagus.

And everyone told him he'd get cancelled. Everyone told him, don't do it. You're going to be called a commie lover. And he says, sometimes you have to do the right thing on principle. And the moment he stood up and said enough is enough, the blacklist was over. And Dalton Trump's name is on Spartagus. Are you waiting for that person to do that for you? I don't believe and never will believe that the world doesn't have.

have more Kirk Douglas's, but what an example. And he said at 98, when he was reflecting, he said, what I do know is that history repeats itself. And we should never, ever allow that to happen again. Who are you going to vote for in your election in November? Well, you know, it's hard to answer that question, please. You know, voting is personal. It's a private thing. Do you know who you're going to vote for? I don't know.

Has everyone jumped in the race already? Has everyone... Well, you have two elderly people, one of whom is facing 100 criminal charges, and the other one can barely say his name in public or stay on his own two feet. Is this a good reflection of your great nation? What did I say before? I went after Obama.

About Obama. What did I say? You said, at last we have someone who goes stopped the rest of the world thinking all Americans are completely bonkers. That was 2009. Here we are, 15 years later. And what did I just say? History repeats itself.

Yes. We shall see. We shall see. Kevin, it's been good to talk to you. Thank you very much for having me. I very much appreciate it. It's been a fascinating conversation. Obviously, these are difficult conversations for you,

but I do sense they're cathartic. for you. And I do hope people are watching. There's got to be a sense of fairness about this eventually. I think most people will conclude you suffered more than someone in your position should. You're not a convicted criminal. And you're being treated as almost one of the worst criminals the Hollywood's ever seen. It seems to me crazy. I thank you for that very much. Good to see. Thank you. And best of luck. Thank you. Thank you.