Piers Morgan Uncensored - "LYING To My FACE!" Israel Accused of 'Cleansing' Gazans To South Africa | Ambassador Ebrahim Rasool

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza by flying Palestinians out of the country on bogus humanitarian flights, according to the South African government. Planes from Gaza have been landing in the country in mysterious circumstances - and Israel has not responded formally to the allegation. The nations have a strained relationship, with South Africa filing a formal genocide case against Israel at the ICJ. Joining Piers Morgan to discuss this further is former South African ambassador to the United States, Ebrahim Rasool and Israel-American journalist Emily Schrader. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Angel Studios: Uncover the truth behind COVID-19 in Thank You, Dr. Fauci—stream now and join the Angel Guild at https://Angel.com/PIERS OneSkin: Get 15% off OneSkin with the code PIERS at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Superpower: flips the script on preventive health. Visit https://Superpower.com today! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What are these planes? Who is sending them? I think it's ridiculous that South Africa is claiming that they didn't know about it. You can't charter a plane without having those coordinates approved ahead of time. They knew that this was happening. South African government would act in a way which morally compromises its position on the genocide, but not be party to the idea of an ethnic cleansing. Do you really believe Donald Trump is a white supremacist? I think he has mobilized that instinct.

I do find it highly ironic that someone who effectively is an Islamist supremacist is accusing someone else of being a white supremacist. You don't know me? I don't appreciate people who are lying to my face. You are the age. Shouting does not assert the truth. When you get into that personal zone of calling me a liar, then I know that you are desperate for answers.

Israel is ethically cleansing Gaza by flying Palestinians out of the country on bogus humanitarian flights. accusation made by the South African government after another plane from Gaza landed in the country in mysterious circumstances. Israel hasn't responded formally to the allegation, but it has a strained relationship with South Africa already because it's filed a formal genocided case against Israel at the ICJ. Which would me to discuss that and more are Abraham Rasul. He's a former South African ambassador to the United States and no stranger to unscensored, the Israeli American journalist, Emily Schrader. Well, welcome to both of you. Everybody, welcome to Uncensored, the first time you've been on. What's going on here? What are these planes?

Who is sending them? Do the people on them know where they're being sent? Are they willing participants, do you think? I'm not privy to the motives of the people who are on the plane, but I do think that we are beginning to uncover some Albanian connections to Israeli intelligence that have brought those planes. decanted the people in Nairobi brought them straight to Johannesburg. It was an idea to create a quandary for the South African government, and hopefully the South African government would

act in a way which morally compromises its position on the genocide in Israel. And I think the South African government, after considering it, decided, let us do the humanitarian thing, accept it, but not be party to the idea of an ethnic cleansing. by being a recipient of people who will never be able to go back while Israel controls. I'll come to Emily about this, but the argument against the charge of ethnic cleansing is these people have paid money to be on these planes willingly.

They may not know exactly where they're going, but they want to leave Gaza, and the fact they're ending up in South Africa for them is good. They want to leave Gaza. That's not, when you're doing that voluntarily, and you're paying for the pleasure of doing it. People would argue that's not ethnic cleansing. That's a voluntary thing that you're doing.

I think that's why I'm not going into the motives of the people involved, but I do go into the idea that people who voluntarily may want to leave a powder cake will never be allowed to get back. And that, I think, is what is the suspicious matter about it. Okay, Emily, interestingly, the Israeli military body, Kogat, which controls Gaza crossings, said in a statement, the residents left the Gaza Strip after Kogat received approval from a third country to receive them. It didn't specify the name of the country, but actually yesterday or Monday, it did name South Africa as being that country.

So they're clearly saying South Africa knew about this. They presumably agreed to receive these people. Like I say, these people expressed a desire to leave Gaza. What's your view of what's happened here? Well, I think it's ridiculous that South Africa is claiming that they didn't know about it. You can't charter a plane without having those coordinates approved ahead of time. There was a connection in Kenya as well, so they knew that this was happening. It doesn't, the associations with the Israeli government have not been proven in any capacity

other than the fact they approved the exit of these people from Gaza. And not only that, but the Prime Minister's office stated explicitly, excuse me, that they are approving people to come in and to come out. They should be allowed to leave if they want to leave and they should be allowed to come back if they want to come back. That is the policy. And the reason that it's controversial now, especially in the eyes of South Africa. This isn't new. There was another flight on October, I believe it was 29th, of another 100 Palestinians from Gaza.

But the reason that it's a controversy now is because the only other agency that was operating, which is Egyptian, has been shut down because they shut down the Rafa crossing. So now because they're going through Israel and because they're getting approval from Israel, South Africa doesn't want to accept them, and they're looking for an excuse to blame Israel for something, despite the fact that, in fact, these people are actually being moved out of harm's way.

paying their own way to exit the Gaza Strip, and they will be allowed to return if that's what they so choose. As Abraham said, you know, many people on these flights would categorize what they're fleeing as being a genocide. South Africa has led the global allegation that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. What's your response to that? Well, I think, obviously, I object this classification, but I also think that it's highly ironic that South Africa is claiming that well at the same time, claiming that they don't want to let in, people who are allegedly fleeing a genocide. So there's a lot of hypocrisy going around,

especially when it comes to South Africa. And we've seen that for a very long time when it comes to the Palestinian issue. I mean, the life expectancy of Palestinians is greater than the life expectancy in South Africa. So what they have going on in South Africa, they've got their own country gray listed for terror financing, of which Mr. Rasul here

has actually been a part of those agencies. A lot of what the flights that they've been bringing in, just in the past two years, His colleague, who Imtiaz Suleiman, actually brought in other highly skilled Gazans to South Africa. Last year, he brought in 59 medical students and doctors to South Africa from the Gaza Strip specifically. And when that happened, they bragged about it,

how it was something humanitarian and how these people were brought in from what's going on in Gaza. I think a few quick things. Well, I'm going to let you respond now. Let me just, for reviewers who know nothing about you, let me just point out, you were the South African ambassador to the United States, You were thrown out of the US in mid-March 2025, earlier this year, was saying in a webinar that Donald Trump was mobilizing a supremacism in MAGA

and trying to project white victimhood as a dog whistle. In the early days of his second term, Trump, of course, called out South Africa for taking Israel to the ICJ with allegations of genocide in Gaza. He froze all funding to South Africa and offered asylum to white Afrikaners while calling out what he said was a white farmer genocide. Marco Rubio accused you of hating the United States and President Trump and said the ambassador was no longer welcome in our great country. So first of all, your response to that, to what happened to you?

I think I'll get to that. Let me say that very few people were able to leave Gaza over the last two years. And therefore, this idea of voluntary departure is a myth. I think secondly, South Africa has never bold. at receiving refugees. We were the net greatest recipient of refugees from other African countries, and Palestine is no exception.

There's no embarrassment for South Africa. It was crossing the eyes and dotting the tease. I think on the issue of accusing Donald Trump of mobilizing, in my words, a supremacist incident, I stand by it. Because what else explains why he would accuse South Africa of a white genocide?

Everyone knows. We covered that on this show. I do not believe there was a white judge. No, but the statistics, the stats don't show that. Donald Trump doubles down on it. And therefore, what other motive could you have than mobilizing white anxiety in South Africa? What other motive explains that you have a net deportation of black and brown from the US and a net importation of white Africanus into the US ostensibly as refugees? And so the point that I'm making is that there's no rational explanation except that there is an instinct at play, and I called it a supremacist instinct. I think I'm being proven right.

It's a pretty serious charge, though, to make against an American president that he's a white supremacist. It's a serious charge, but the American president makes serious charges every day of his life. He does, but that doesn't... And so therefore, I think that you can't have such a thin skin that you dish it out and what is very... for me a badge of honor is that one ambassador out of almost 200 said something, and it was heard in the Oval Office. It hurt the Oval Office. It pierced a very thin skin.

And I think that that, for me, is a badge of honor. Would you really believe Donald Trump is a white supremacist? I think he has mobilized that instinct in the U.S. I think it's the source of his vote. Well, if they're all in terms of his vote. You think he is? No. When he says there's a white genocide and he's proven wrong,

and he embarrasses or tries to embarrass our president with false evidence of it, shows pictures of the DRC and so forth. Johann Rupert and others, a major South African figure, you know, called out the truth and said that wasn't happening. Then what explains that months later, he doubles down on it and says, on that basis, I'm not going to the G20, I'm not accepting the baton from you, and so forth. He might be, look, he can be wrong about it without himself being a white supremacist.

You never double down on a wrong even when your own advisors tell you and the world tells you it is wrong. Donald Trump also doubles down on things. And therefore he has no right to double down on false. But it doesn't make him a white supremacist? I think he does. Really? I think what we are seeing. It is.

Because I am from a nation who was one of the last who stared down supremacism in South Africa. I was put in jail by supremacists. When I hear the dog whistle, I understand it. And that I think is absolutely, I'm not speaking from a theoretical basis. I'm speaking from a lived experience. No, I understand that. And obviously there was white supremacy in South Africa, and we saw that. And that white supremacy is ensconcing itself.

They have free access to the White House. They have free access to give false evidence, and they have free access to really influence a United States president to boycott the G20 on the basis of a false white genocide. Well, it's probably not unconnected, Emily, to the fact that South Africa has been so strident about Israel, one of America's top allies, of course. Trump has been working very hard to bring peace in the Middle East. I think he deserves great credit for getting the hostages released and the current ceasefire and so on. I'm sure these things are all interwoven as to why he has an antipathy towards the South African government.

He doesn't think they should have done that. But on that charge of him being a white supremacist, what's your response to that? I mean, I don't really have any comment about Donald Trump. I don't know what his personal views are. I don't care for him that much personally. I don't agree with his policy on most of the Middle East, certainly not trying to make a deal with the Islamic Republic of Iran. But I do find it highly ironic that someone who effectively is an Islamist supremacist

is accusing someone else of being a white supremacist. Mr. Rasul here is someone who has openly praised Yusuf al-Karadawi, who, of course, is a financier or was a financier of Hamas. who openly supported terrorism and Hamas. He has constantly affiliated himself with various figures who are involved with Hamas. He has participated in his organization, as well, has even co-hosted fundraisers

with organizations that were funded and created by Karadawi, who I mentioned earlier, Suleiman, his colleague. He also has done, not only brought Gazans to South Africa, but also has bragged about his associations with Hamas officials, he's met with Islamic jihad officials. He has also posted publicly about how he has a kifia that's signed by Isma Hanea, the leader of Hamas, and just several months before he was appointed to be the ambassador of the United States, he was meeting with a delegation of Muslim Brotherhood officials in South Africa about

how to advance the Palestinian cause. Now, given the fact that he has all of these associations with Hamas officials and with people who have funded Hamas, I would like to know, and I think the world deserves to know what What exactly he meant by supporting the Palestinian cause when meeting with those Muslim Brotherhood officials? Let's give Mr. Rasul the chance to respond. I think Emily has come here prepared to speak to a stereotype and not to Ibrahim Rasul. No, I'm talking about your actual record.

Anyone who knows who I am would know that I was targeted by extremists because I stood against extremism in the name of Islam. You've had a good choice. exact words. You stated that Karadawi was your spiritual guide. Those were your words. You publicly posted it. He's an important person in the Muslim world. And so let's leave that. He said that the Jews deserved what Hitler did to him. Do you agree with that? I was at the 60th anniversary of Auschwitz, mourning with Jews. Do you agree with Karadawi's statements?

In the central synagogue of Cape Town, mourning with Jews. But in relation to the statements he has made of the kind Emily is saying, would you now disavow those statements? No, I think that the point is that the Palestinian struggle is the litmus test of Western humanity. No, you stated that Karadawi was your spiritual guide. And the free pass that is constantly given to Israel to do what they can to Palestine. And you have called it out appears, you have said it's unconscionable, you have said it's unacceptable, you have said that starvation is a weapon of war. That's what is faced. Mr. Rasul, is Karadawi, your spiritual guide or not. You also stated that your most memorable days, you put it in writing. You put it in writing.

You stated your most memorable days were with him. And the same reason that you would see Netanyahu as a political leader. Isma al-Hanilla. Do you support Hamas? Was the democratically elected president. You participated in a fundraiser in which the Hamas Ministry of Health. Let me ask you one question.

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That's 15% off OneSkin.com with Code Peers. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them, so please support our show and tell them that we sent you. I think that the killing of all innocent civilians is dastardly, should be condemned, and whether it is from Sabra and Chathila, whether it is on the 7th of October, whether it's on the 8th of October, I think that has to be the litmus. And I'm not saying that theoretically.

I'm not saying that theoretically. What I am saying is that that is what is stored to me by my faith that you don't think. But to be clear, you do condemn amounts. I condemn anyone who kills innocent women. I condemn the IDF for doing that. I will condemn even Hamas soldiers for doing that. I will do, we even do that with anyone. It wasn't like a general who else do you condemn.

It's purely... After October the 7th, I don't know how anyone can't condemn. We all have our favorite victims and we all have our favorite aggressors. I draw the line across all people who violate a faith teaching of mine and who violate the way in which we conducted mostly our struggle in South Africa. Do you think Israel had a right to defend itself after October the 7th? Anyone has the right to defend itself? Hamas would argue that they were defending himself against 70 years of the Nakbah.

We cannot have a whole. entire struggle based on the reprisals and vengeance. That is the great lesson that South Africa has taught. We embraced to the extent that I served in the cabinet of the last aparthe police minister who put me in jail. Vengeance is never the motive for going forward. And when I speak, I speak on the basis of experience and the internal soul searching I've had to do to be able to reconcile with people who put me in jail, who kill, who kill.

comrades of mine on the battlefield, I've mourned at many graves, and I've had to overcome all of that to make the South African experiment work. So when we spoke to our white community, everyone applauded. When we speak to other aggressors in the world and say, there is a better way, everyone says, how can you associate with them? Why is it acceptable and laudable that we speak to our white oppressors and come to common terms? But you can speak to no one else to share the South Africa. avoid any ambiguity when it comes to what Hamas did in October the 7th, you wouldn't argue that was self-defense or justified in any way. I think that in the same way that a Nelson Mandela right up till his 90th birthday in the USA

was on a terrorist list until he was taken off. You're not really comparing Mandela to Hamas, surely. I am saying that anyone who fights for freedom always believes that it has a moral Massacring people on a Jewish holiday and anyone who opposes freedom. And anyone who opposes that freedom. Can you just answer the question? And you just answer the question?

You feel that they have the right to be able to condemn things. So what I am saying is that any... I'm actually very, I mean, I'm stunned. You've evoked the name of Nelson Mandela. When I ask you about what I'm asking. Nelson Mandela is the litmus test of how long it takes a Western community to take a man of a terrorist law. Just to be clear, what we saw in October the 7th was not freedom fighting.

It was a grotesque act of mass terrorism. And that's what I'm saying, that all such loss of innocent lives must be condemned. But why can't you just get into it on his own? Why invoke Mandela's name? No, because I'm saying that the same reasoning that Emily brings to it that those are terrorists and the IDF must have a... Not only are they terrorists. They're terrorists.

Emily, your response is. You have decades of supporting. you have decades of involvement with. You are a known Muslim Brotherhood affiliate. You have participated in fundraisers that went directly to the Hamas-run Ministry of Health that are murdering Palestinians. In 1984, not at 1984,

two weeks before October 7, you posted about Islamhaneh praising him. Two weeks before October 7th. Not only that, the South African government sent a delegation to the Islamic Republic of Iran. Let's become, Emily, you don't know me. I don't appreciate people who are lying, who are lying to my face when I know.

and I will take you with great respect, but you can shout as much as what you want to, and shouting does not assert the truth. What we are saying is that I had in 1984 already seen the limitations of an Islamist viewpoint. We formed our own organization, the call of Islam. We affiliated to the liberation movement,

the United Democratic Front, and to Archbishop Desmond Tutu's interfaith movement, and that is the way in which we have carved a democratic Islam, that's how we participated in the struggle and in the transition. And so you are speaking to a stereotype and I know that's very need for you. And I'm not. I'm speaking about your statements in recent years on your social media. You openly praised Karadawi recently. You can hang all your crope on Karadwe and so forth. You're lying through your teeth. The evidence is

there for everyone to see. The fact is that when you get into that personal zone of calling me a liar, then I know that that you are desperate for answers. What I am saying is you've got to judge me by what I have done. Oh, I am. And you can go and ask your own people in South Africa, in the Jewish Board of Deputies, where have I stood? When there were terrorist groupings in Cape Town bombing synagogues,

I was the one as the leader of the ANC there, later as the Premier, who had to understand that I needed to be the bullwark against extremism in the name of my religion. and I needed to do that. And that put me on a business, and I've had to manage all of that. Would you categorize what Hamas did in October 7th

as extremism? I think it's any killing of innocence is extremism. Sometimes extremism is informal like Hamas has done, and sometimes extremism But is it justified, as you put it, you're fighting for freedom? Is it justified?

I think that there must be limits on the methodology of fighting for freedom, but there is no limits on the legitimacy for fighting for freedom. and against occupation. But then you're implying what they did was legitimate. I'm saying that in everyone who fights for freedom will justify.

We've had many things. But there was nothing legitimate about what Hamas did that day. And there's nothing legitimate about what happened from October the 8th onwards. You have said it yourself. It's unconscionable. Yes, but what I've never. Starvation is a weapon of war.

Here's the difference. I am completely unambiguous when it comes to what Hamas did and what that made them. In that moment, they identify themselves I'm unambiguous that the innocent lives loss on October the 7th is unconscionable. Are they terrorists? Amas. They are extreme. Are they terrorists?

And the same way that I would say, I would say that you cannot have an elected government simply being called a terrorist government. And the same way that I don't use. They murder, 1,200 people kidnapped, 250 or. There's 60,000 people murdered. Yeah. It's starve to death. As you know.

As you are now. As he referenced, I have been very critical. We can't have a model equivalence. I've been very critical about the proportionality of Israel's response. However, I've never questioned their right to defend themselves. You see, I've always been unequivocal that Hamas are a terror group. Let me tell you that when South Africa launched its case against Israel in the ICJJAN for genocide. Yeah.

We did not use our own imagination of what is a genocide. We used the kind of work that the definition of genocide that was done after World War II and beautifully accurately. Let me ask you a question. How many countries and states ever have been convicted of waging a genocide? We have had the genocide in Bosnia. We've had it.

I don't know. Let me ask you a question for you. It's none. No country or state has ever been found guilty of wages. The conviction is not. Individuals have been, and groups of people have been, not a country or a state. It doesn't matter.

Well, it doesn't matter to this. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Listen. If there is a genocide. and it's based on the definition of genocide that was crafted by the survivors of the Holocaust. That is the case that we are making in the ICJ.

I just think it's ridiculous that, first of all, you cannot admit that the people who were murdered on October 7th were completely innocent, number one. Number two, no, you didn't say that. You didn't say that Hamas is a terrorist organization. And you know why? Because two weeks before October 7th, you were posting on your social media

talking about how Ismail Hania is a hero of the Palestinian people and bragging that you have a Kifiyah signed by Ismail Haniyah. I have said that he was an elected prime minister. It doesn't matter what kind of person posed something about Ishmael Ania, praising him on social media. And you talked about 1984 as if you've changed your limitations on the views of Islamism. It's not true. It's flat out not true because in 2019, you participated in a fundraiser of gift of the giving of your friend MTIA Soleimani. I know you're sticking to your speaking points.

But don't shout it out. Hamax officials at this event, and that money went directly to the Hamas-run Ministry of Health. You've made that point, falsely. I want to end by talking about where we are now in Israel. There is a ceasefire. The hostages have been released. There is this 20-point plan which Donald Trump and his team have put forward. It's been adopted by the United Nations.

Are you supportive of this plan? Any plan that takes us towards peace, imperfect as it is, is a step in the right direction. Whether it is a peace or a ceasefire, that's moot, we will see as it goes, whether it is the demand for a surrender on the one side or whether it is a genuine coming together of arts that we will see. And again, having lived through a transition and being in the leadership during a transition, we know that those are fraught with all kinds of dangers, even if you have perfect angels negotiating on both sides. But at the end of the day, the best peace comes out of when opposing people speak to each other.

we need to see the proof will be in the pudding and that I think is what is being awaited. A ceasefire with incursions from Israel is not perfect but I think at least we hope I've been in Amman I've seen warehouses full of food and if any of that food can simply move in it will be an improvement. We have seen the amount of deaths thousands a day if only that even slow down it is important. But I think we must end belligerence on all sides, and we must have a genuine and sincere effort for peace. Okay, Emily.

I think that the peace plan is a positive step. I hope that it's successful. I definitely have my doubts, and the primary reason for that is that we're talking about an international peacekeeping force, which, if we're looking at history, is very problematic, especially in the Middle East.

If you look at Unifil in Lebanon and UN Resolution 1559, and also 1701, called for the disarmament of Hezbollah. They haven't been successful. The Lebanese government has repeatedly failed to disarm Hezbollah. It's a huge problem for the country that's ongoing. And still, they're supposed to be being disarmed.

That's not happening. And unfortunately, I think that's probably what we're going to see in the Gaza Strip as well. And that's something that's unacceptable. Hamas is a terrorist organization that, for the sake of both sides, needs to be destroyed, certainly disarmed and removed from power. And they should have no role in the future governance of Gaza. And that's going to be very, very difficult with an international peacekeeping. We haven't seen any country step up and say,

yes, we're willing to actually force Hamas to disarm. Certainly, Hamas has said they're not going to do that under any circumstances. And so there's a lot still unknown, but it's a definitely a step in the right direction. The reason I've held off using the word genocide, I've categorized a lot of what I've been seeing as a form of ethnic cleansing,

particularly when I hear Smodrich and Bangavir and these very far-right members of that government talking in openly ethnic cleansing manner manner about wanting to get rid of all Palestinians from the Gaza Strip. But the reason I've held off is because if Israel was waging a genocide and that was their clear intention, as many believe they are, why would they do a ceasefire? It's the one point that I think that they are also being frog marched to a ceasefire in the same way that Hamas is being frog-marched to a cease by a, the belligerents in the war don't easily

give up the weaponry of that war. But if they were genuinely wanting to get rid of all the Palestinians, I think that they wouldn't surely stop killing them. They would carry on, wouldn't they? I think it is carrying on. That I think is unfortunate, and every pretext allows an incursion. And so that's why I'm saying that it's an imperfect one, it's a step in the right, it gives And if Israel is being taken down a line away from genocide to a peaceful resolution, who would you credit with making them do that? I think that there is fatigue. I think that the influence that some of the Arab states have begun to exercise in conjunction with Donald Trump takes us into a point. But it's a Trump plan.

It is the only plan that is on the table. It brings relief, but it does not bring a solution because it does not end. The key question will be, will the peace be on the status quo anti, where things were, probably in 1967, or will it be the status quo as is with Israel even retaining two-thirds of Gaza? If it is a lasting peace, should Trump get the Nobel Peace Prize? I don't think that I come from a country that has contributed for Nobel Peace laureates, and I think they all deserve it, and they set it material. But Trump wouldn't deserve one by that? I don't think he does. and yet you think he's brought Israel to heal and stop the killing.

I'm not saying he's brought him to heal. I've said it's frog marched together with the Arab... Whichever way you want to categorize it, if Trump has frog marched Israel to peace, why would he not brought the Nobel Peace Prize? Because I don't think... I think the permissions that went up till that moment will disqualify.

Isn't it because you think he's a white supremacist and you don't want to say he deserves it? And I think that supremacism doesn't need rewards. It's odd behavior for a supremacist to try and forge peace? Not if he's striving for a peace prize. Okay. We're going to leave you there.

Thank you very much for coming in. Thank you very much for coming in. I appreciate it. Pierce Morgan Unsensit is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Pierce Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcast. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and enter.

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