Piers Morgan Uncensored - "No-one's Perfect" Prince Abdulaziz on Saudi World Cup, Ronaldo, Salah & More

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

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A lot of people think that Saudi suppresses free speech, and I think there's merit to that argument in many ways. You've made no effort to censor me. I mean, you couldn't because the show's called Unsensing. Do you think journalists are going to give the same scrutiny to US, Canada and Mexico and their human rights records as you're going to get? No, but it is what it is. Donald Trump is the President of the United States again? Is this a good thing that he's been re-elected for you guys? I feel of sports, yes.

Would you be happy for Russia as things stand to compete in 2034? I mean that decision is with FIFA, it's not with us. Would you be happy? But we have no, we don't mix politics with sports at all. The Taliban are going to stop women competing in sport and we shouldn't be encouraging playing in the men's game. What do you think? I think the athletes shouldn't be a victim of political decisions.

We stand firmly with the Palestinian people, but that has nothing to do with the sport. Football is obviously getting bigger and bigger here. You should be thanking me really, because without my interview with Christiana Ronaldo that led to him leaving Manchester United, he wouldn't be here. President Trump's first phone call to another world leader

wasn't to historic allies like France or the UK, nor was it to Ukraine, Zelensky, Russia's Putin or Israel's Netanyahu, with whom he's had urgent business on brokering an end of their deadly and unpopular wars. His first call, in fact, was about business of the kind he knows, best investment, trade, and profit.

And the man at the end of the line was the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia. Oriyadh was Trump's first destination as president in 2017, and it may well end up being his first again in 2025. So first foreign trip typically has been with UK, but we did it, I did it with Saudi Arabia last time

because they agreed to buy $450 billion worth of our product. I said, I'll do it, but you have to buy American... product and they agreed to do that. They bought $450 billion. It was the least reported story I've ever been involved. And now?

Or are you pled to go now? Well, I don't know. If Saudi Arabia wanted to buy another $450 or $500, well, up it for all the inflation. Saudi Arabia is now weighing up a $600 billion investment in the United States, but most of the big spending is at home.

The kingdom wants to be the world capital of sports and entertainment and has the money to match the vision. Many top footballers have followed Christiana Renan. to Riyadh, major boxing battles and Dana White's UFC are now affixed you here. But they're building it, but will the world come? I've never been to Saudi Arabia until now.

My first trip here, despite many visits to other parts of the Middle East, I've seen and read a lot about Saudi Arabia and judged only by Western media. You might think it to be a dusty, dangerous place where misogyny rules and the people live in fear. So I thought I'd come and judge it for myself. What was a good idea when you read narratives which perhaps are a little distorted? And well, this is not a hostage video. No one's telling me what I can and can't say. I can go wherever I like.

I've been walking around quite happily on my own. I've already met some very interesting people. And crucially, this is uncensored, as it always is. That's the basis of any country. In Saudi Arabia, they feel that way about their country. This is Saudi Arabia. We're the most important country in Islam. You know, we're the leader of the Arab world, which they are.

They're very proud of it. Great. I'm not a Muslim or an Arab, not from the Middle East. I come here. They're like, great. So glad to have this. By the way, you're not allowed to, like, change the laws here because you're not Saudi. This country is changing fast, that is for sure.

After years of living under antiquated rules, women can now work, drive, and move freely around the country. They're welcome at concerts and in sports stadiums. And they're embracing it. Only of women and families were alongside me to enjoy Al-NAS's 3-1 victory at the weekend. Ronaldo school, of course, under the watchful eye of an old friend. Say it's what again. Lee, Christiane, Ronald. Sport is at the heart of Saudi Arabia's plan to transform its economy,

and sport is driving much of the rapid and dramatic social change. In 2034, it will host the biggest sporting contest of all, the World Cup. And the man charged with delivering him is Prince Abdulaziz, bin Turkey, Al-Faisal. I sat with him in Riyadh for a Noel Holsbard lengthy interview that I'm sure will make a lot of headlines everywhere. Nothing, crucially, was off-limits. This was genuinely uncensored. Claims about human rights abuses, women's rights, sports washing.

He answered everything that I asked him. But take a look and judge for yourself. You're all honest, it's great to meet you. My first time in Saudi Arabia, first time in Riyadh, first time in Riyadh. Fascinating to be, I've been here 24 hours. I can already feel the excitement and the energy and the dynamism about the World Cup, and we're still 10 years away. So I can't imagine how you're feeling is the Minister of Sport.

Take me back to the moment you heard you'd won. Obviously, you were the only bidder in the end. But that moment when you're awarded the World Cup must have been for you, an extraordinary moment. Well, thank you so much, peers, for having me with you on the show. And, you know, welcome to Saudi Arabia. Thank you. I can't believe that it's your first time.

I know. Travel the whole world. But I think it's the right time to come and to talk about sports because you're a big fan of sports. And I think it's a good topic to talk about. Yeah, thank you for the... introduction and looking forward 10 years from now it actually passes very quickly we still have a lot of work to do in preparation to achieve what we want to

achieve hopefully in the World Cup I think the first impression that we had was you know just kind of a weight that was gone because a lot of people don't know that we've been started working on on the bid and wanting to host the World Cup see what are the issues are how can we prepare for it and so on since 2018. So we really prepared very early on with an ambition that one day we would host the World Cup. And this comes all within the 2030 vision and His Royal Highness, the Crown Prince's vision, and

hosting international events, what can we do and so on, and to develop sports in the kingdom. So we've been working tirelessly for six years, monthly meetings with his royal Highness about details and what could work what doesn't work and so on and there wasn't even actually a bid regulation that came out so we looked at the previous bid regulations what can we take from there what can we know in terms of the specifications of the facilities what goes in into preparation in terms of logistics transportation hotels health care everything that that the

that comes into that. And I think also what made us very well prepared is that it was all planned within the 2030 vision. So everything that we're doing is part of the 2030 vision, whether we host the World Cup or not, is all projects that are been submitted to the government and planned to deliver on by 2030. So hopefully by 2030, all of the preparation would be done.

we'll have some stadiums to finish later on after that. And then we looked at the capacity because it will be 48 countries participating. Which is the most that any individual nation has ever hosted. So America obviously has three countries hosting with Mexico and Canada and they have the same number, which is the highest ever. But you're the only country to take it on yourself. That's a lot 408 countries. Yes, but Saudi is a big country as well geographically.

and it's a different, you know, territories with different cultures and so on. So it's a nice diversity for the fans to travel throughout the kingdom. And I think for us, that's what we want. We want to welcome the world to come to Saudi. You want to show them what Saudi is. And what better way to put it in the biggest event in the world, which is the World Cup? So that moment just, you know, when you work, that long and then suddenly it's nailed that you have it.

I don't think anyone can express what they really feel at the moment but it's a moment of joy, it's a moment of pride that we represented the nation in a good way and hopefully that we can deliver on hosting the Best World Cup experience that you'll ever have. How helpful is it to you that Qatar became the first Middle Eastern country? to host a World Cup because I was there for a week and I was very impressed. I thought it was an excellent World Cup.

Many people who went agreed with that, including a lot of professional football legends I spoke to. And it kind of, I guess, showed you where the lines of attack are going to come about Saudi Arabia. You know what they are and we'll discuss those. But Qatar went through all that as well. What did you think of the Qatar World Cup? What lessons do you think you learned from that? I think they did an amazing job.

I was there the whole time and I think in terms of organization it was one of the best that you can achieve. And I think they had a really big opportunity that you can actually attend all the matches of the World Cup. And I think Gianni did that by going, you know, the first half to one match. You could actually, I know people who walked exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I don't think there were any issues in terms of, you know, hosting the or they had for sure they would have had some. small issues in organization and so on. But from what we've seen, it was exceptional. And, you know, we supported them with some of the know-how that we have.

We've been there. Our fans were there. So we learned a lot. And we work with them as we speak to learn from their experience as well, what worked, what didn't work. You know, you can think of a lot of good ideas, but will it work on the ground or not? But you can't compare. You know, Qatar, it was all hosted in a small territory. But when you look at Saudi, there's travel time,

there's a lot of logistics that come in, a lot of different, and the population is much bigger. There are 15 stadiums planned for the World Cup. Yes. And my understanding is eight of them will be in Riyadh. So in a sense, Riyadh will be a kind of version of Qatar. But it's the other seven venues. So the first question fans will ask, well,

how far do we have to travel? What's the furthest distance? How do you get there? All that kind of thing. The whole logistics system that we're working on, we have international airports all over the country in the destinations that we'll have the stadiums and where the group stages are going to be held in all the matches, linked by airlines, buses, and some which will have train connectivity as well.

So the longest that you'll travel by plane would be two hours. And we think that that's going to give you a good time to travel between matches and so on. But also 60% of the population around the world is only eight hours away from Saudi. Is that right? Yeah. That's an amazing stuff. So that's an amazing number that you know. It's only very easy to get here from England.

I know that. Exactly. And I think the nice thing about it is that you won't have any jet lags. Yeah. You know, three hours ahead of the UK. Exactly. Eight hours ahead of America. America.

They may find it a bit difficult. But I think, you know, it's in terms of connectivity you'll have, you know, and we've laid that out in our bid, what do we plan on doing from now to then to connect all of these cities together and to make sure that the fan experience is of the highest that they would enjoy and entertain and have the most memorable experience. Well, that brings me to the biggest question of all. Actually, probably the second biggest. We'll come to the biggest.

But for fans, the big question will be when you're having this tournament? Because Qatar obviously went for a winter tournament. That causes a lot of issues with some of the leagues. Premier League in the UK didn't like it. Some of the European leagues didn't like it. Very disruptive to their normal domestic leagues. But in terms of the temperatures, I was there for a week. It was very pleasant, a bit like it is here now.

like in the early 70s, 20 degrees centigrade and so on. It's a big ongoing debate. What are you going to do? Have you made a decision yet about whether this is going to be in your summer where it can be 40 degrees Celsius or the winter? Well, as I said, Saudi is huge. So even if you come in the summer in the south where one of the stadiums and some of the group stages

are going to be there, it's the same temperature as we are today and it's much cooler than where we are in Riyadh during the summer. But that's a debate that we're still. having with with FIFA and I'm sure that the ultimate goal would be what would be the best experience for the fans to come and attend but also you know we have a 10-month league as well that they play in different climates and and so on so it's not an issue about the temperature that big of an issue I think we should put the right steps into delivering the right necessary accommodation and services that are there and and you know when we

looked at what happened and it was a success, even that it happened during the time that it happened. And everyone went on with their business and it didn't affect anyone in a big way. And some actually claimed that the matches were actually better at that time because it was like in the beginning of the season and the athletes were at their peak performance instead of end of a season.

Yeah, the counter argument from the clubs, of course, is that the players come back exhausted. Yeah. And they were moaning and whining about that. We used it as an excuse to arsul, my team. But it's an interesting debate because I could imagine the fan experience which you talk about is wanting to be the most important thing. A lot of fans, if they come and it's 40 degrees Celsius walking around, they will not be used

to that. And that brings with it actually probably legitimate health issues as well, potentially. And we're looking at what would be the best experience. What's your gut instinct? Honestly, I don't know. I mean, we still have a long way to decide on that and a lot could change in the next 10 years, even with leagues and so on. But I think, you know, the experience that we had in Qatar showcased, that it can happen and it can happen in a proper way and nobody, you know, big time got affected with it. And, you know, they still complain about the athletes and how many matches they have during a normal season.

Yeah. So that's why we're still debating this with FIFA and I think it will be a joint decision to be to be taken by everyone. And we want to share this with everyone to have the best experience for the number one global event in the world, which is the FIFA World Cup. The big question in Qatar, particularly for English fans, was, well, can we have a drink? And they were going to be allowed one right to the point that the tournament began and then like a day or two before, suddenly it was announced no alcohol. not complete ban, you could go to some bars and the sticks a bit and get a drink. Saudi obviously alcohol is illegal here. Like you say, 10 years is a long time. I mean, given the rate of evolution of this country in the last 10 years,

I wouldn't say anything as a guarantee. But as things stand, is it likely that alcohol will be prohibited here during the World Cup? Well, it is now, so I can speak about now. But I think that the most important thing is how will it affect our event? And we don't see any effect. I mean, we've hosted more than 100 international events as we speak. Everyone has come and enjoyed it. And it's become really a family environment of attending to these events that people come and enjoy.

And I know that some fans would, you know, for them it's something that they look up to and they want to and to be part of that and to be part of their experience. But we don't see that it's an issue, honestly. You know, you've mentioned Qatar and what happened, a lot attended, they enjoyed the matches. I think the stats also reflect in a positive way that, you know, some of the chaos that happens around some fans and some fans. Well, there was zero, I think, arrests of English fans at a football tournament. This is unprecedented. I mean, when you think of the terrible scenes are Euro's final, the last one, was just awful.

I was there. Absolutely horrendous. And I've got to say, the experience in Qatar was so much better just to be able to experience going very safely and no one getting drunk and fighting and misbehaving was a nice change. I think that will be the ultimate goal for everyone to have a good time to enjoy.

And I don't think that will be an issue for us in the World Cup. So I think we should focus on the fan experience more than anything else. And we know that we can deliver on something spectacular from what we hosted so far. So it hasn't really been an issue for us. There will be two groups of people that will be concerned about their safety here.

One is women. A lot of women who maybe have never been to Saudi who say, well, how safe am I going to be? Can I walk around on my own? Do I have to have some form of male guardian with me? Will I be allowed to drive if I want? All these sort of questions that you know you're going to be asked. What's the answer?

So what's your message to women from outside the region who come here for the World Cup? Well, I think that women today in Saudi Arabia have the most rights that they've ever had. And the reforms that have been done in the past eight years, more than 150 reforms, they're more independent or they are independent. They can actually open their own businesses. They can have their own access to their own lives without any guardians. There are no more guardian. You don't need to have a male guardian to walk around in Saudi as a walk.

That has changed. And that's all changed. People probably don't know that. Exactly. And I see it sometimes in the media. People still talk about that, but that has changed. They're more independent. You know, we, and Saudi is one of the safest countries in the world,

even with the numbers and the ranking within the G20 categorization and so on. We guarantee everyone's safety. It's something very important. for us, not just for women, but for everyone within the kingdom. And we make sure that we put the right regulations to make sure that everyone comes and enjoy. Nobody is going to ask you where you're going, who you are, what you're doing. And women drive here now? Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. And any woman can get a license. Yes. And they can attend any event that they would like, whether it was sporting or any other event. They have independent lives today, that they can be more independent and reflect on themselves and, you know, you know, even divorce, they can ask for a divorce if they wanted. Really? So, yeah. So... You're allowed to get one? Yes.

I mean, I'll ask if it wants one thing. Yeah, by law, yeah. So they can. So they can. Yeah. So a lot of, I know that a lot don't know about what the reforms have, that have happened, but there is a lot of reforms that happened in the past eight years, thanks to the leadership and His Royal Royal Highness the conference with the 2030 vision that, that have, you know, fixed a lot of these things that, that we see this thrives today. I was at the Al Nassar match last night

and Cristiano Ronaldo obviously has his club there, so it's very famous around the world. There were lots of women in the audience, in the crowd there. That wouldn't have happened two years ago. Women weren't allowed into stadiums. That's a big change. I mean, you're still a young man in many ways, but are you surprised yourself at the speed of change

in the last 10 years? I mean, if you tried to have this interview 10 years, go, these would be very different answers you'd be giving me. I didn't understand why they weren't allowed, as the question. And I think, you know, if you look at like Mecca the holiest site in the Islamic world, women and men are doing the pilgrimage and they're going together. So why is a football stadium not allowed to go there? But these were the laws, so they had to abide with them.

And I don't think that, you know, everyone understood, a lot of people did not understand why we had these laws. And I think this is where the evolution of the 2030 vision came in and fixed these things. You know, today the environment within the stadiums is much bigger, is much more entertaining for families going in there. And, you know, a newlywed that decides their weekend to go and enjoy something on the weekend before the husband would think twice whether to go to a football match or take his family out for dinner, let's say, or take them out and spend time with them.

Because he couldn't take them. And that all changed in 2018. Just before women were allowed to drive. So, you know, we started with that process. And it just happened overnight. Now we see, you know, the stadiums filled with families attending, even with kids going together. Yeah, that's right last time. Yeah. And it's created.

really so it's changed even society and the relationship between men and women and attending these events and so on and it made the environment in the stadiums much better because they can go as a family and enjoy a weekend watching christiano rinaldo with their kids and and have entertained a match and then and then get on with their weekend so a lot of these changes you know i think there was always this question is why and and we never understood it but when it sounds like you were asking that question question yourself. I did, yeah, to myself and when we discuss it, I don't, I didn't understand why they weren't allowed to go to, to the stadiums. And, you know, it takes, you know,

strong leadership to take such difficult questions within, within society. And that's the representation of the leadership that we have today. And I think that it's because it's for a good cause and it works for the society, it makes it better for the people. And that's why the decision was taken. And no effects at all. It just happened overnight. So we're very happy with that. I'll come to women's sport, because I know it's been very fast growing here. The other sector of the community, if you like, globally that are concerned, are the LGBT community.

It's illegal to be gay here, as it was in Qatar. In fact, as it was for a quarter of all the countries that reached the last 32 in the World Cup finals in Qatar, as I pointed out to people. It was illegal to be gay in England in 19th. when we won the World Cup last. So, you know, it's been an evolution for a lot of countries, this issue. But what do you say to gay people who may want, there'll be a lot of gay football fans who want to come to the World Cup,

will they be welcome here? Everyone's welcome. And we've said that in the past. And we've said that to all the events that we've hosted. As I told you, we have more than 100 international events that we've hosted. And we haven't had any issues with anyone from that community. Everyone's welcome to come to Saudi. Nobody is going to ask you other than what the information in your passport is.

You have full privacy of your thoughts and your beliefs and so on, and nobody will do that. All that we ask is that we have our rules and regulations and our culture that we ask people to respect is the same as when we go anywhere else in the world. We respect everything, even if I don't believe in it or I don't believe that some of the rules and regulations abide by what I believe in, but I respect it because I'm there and I showcase.

What should people be careful about? If they're coming to Saudi Arabia, I said they're coming for six weeks to watch the whole World Cup, how many weeks it will end up being. What should they just be careful about doing? What would you advise them not to do? Well, I think, you know, we have slightly, you know, we abide by the Islamic law and Islamic tradition and so on. But what you abide with, I cannot enforce that on you.

And that's what I abide with and so on. So I think that they shouldn't be really careful of a lot of things. It's just that they should abide by the regulations that are there. I'm sure they know a lot of it that are there. And just enjoy the event for the event and keep it sporting and enjoy sports as it is. You know, I think that Allah try to hijack sports in a lot of ways for political reasons. And we don't mix that at all. even with our political stance towards,

with our sporting stance towards certain things. You know, we've had issues with other neighbouring countries that we didn't have any relationship with them, but they compete, they come, because we believe that sports has nothing to do with sport. You did in recent times with Qatar, of course. A hundred percent, yeah. Saudi had major problems with Qatar,

and there you were, as it turned out, beating the eventual world champions in Qatar. It was probably the greatest moment in the history of Saudi sport, actually. So that shows you an example of what you're talking about. 100%. And as I said, you know, we've been successful in hosting more than 100 international events that hosted people from all over the world, more than 160 countries and nationalities and so on. And everyone has come, everyone has had fun.

All colors, all colors, all sexuality. Yes. And no one has any issues. All what you ask is respect our culture and what goes with it. That's it. The big issue that Qatar had was that in the construction of all their stadiums, a lot of migrant workers died. I spoke to some of their leaders at the time and they conceded it was, you know, it was wrong that too many migrant workers were dying in the process of building those big stadia. You have more steady you're building here because you've got more teams playing obviously.

And you've got a lot of migrant workers here from all over the world, from the ball to Bangladesh to wherever. and they come here in big numbers. I would imagine that you've looked at what happened in Katana, you want to avoid the same criticism coming your way. You've already been getting a bit of it. Human rights groups have been putting out reports that say that a lot of migrant workers have been killed already. What is your response to that?

Well, it is a serious issue, and we have looked at it. And for us, I think, just hosting the World Cup, one of the reasons is to show us what the issues are because sometimes you can go on by developing a nation and not realizing what the issues are. And I think these are things that we take very seriously. And I think to pinpoint that specifically is that a lot of the reforms that happened

in the past eight years are workers' reforms that are abide by law to make sure that we have the right system that everyone is safe and everyone has. has the rights within the kingdom, living in the kingdom. You mentioned we have a lot of workers, 40% of our population is expats. So that's a big population.

We want them to live a healthy and prosperous lifestyle within the kingdom. So we put a lot of reforms towards the workers' programs that we've had. We're part of the ILO, which is the International Labor Organization, which the UK, Japan also are part of that. And we abide by the regulations that are there. We work closely with them.

I think there's a lot of improvement that needs to be done and we are looking at it in a serious manner and we are taking the right steps towards that. Today, we have around 660,000 entities that have to register all of their contracts to the Ministry of Labor and we monitor, which is around 9 million contracts, that we monitor, we can audit,

we can make sure that they get their pay, sure that they're being taken care of. Also that we make sure that there is a connection that we can hear from them, what their complaints are, what that they can complain about other things that are there. And when you look at the numbers, you know, I hear and read some of these articles, but when you look at the numbers, the percentage of death and the labor force is 1.1 percent to every hundred thousand. So we are one of the lowest countries in the world in that percentage.

this to say we are looking at it in a serious way we are putting the right measures to to make sure that we don't fall into this issue in the future especially as you mentioned with a lot of these development and going on not just in sports but also in other GAGA projects that we're working on I mean if you look at the DEIA project we had 50 million hours of no fatalities within the DEIA project so for those who don't know about that project yeah it's it's a it's a it's a It's a UNESCO heritage site that is within, close to Riyadh. But it's actually the first capital of the Saudi state. It was demolished during the Ottoman Empire, and that's why the Saudi state moved to Riyadh.

But now it's a UNESCO site, and there's a full residential, sporting, entertainment development that's happening there. So hopefully when you come for the World Cup, you'll get to enjoy the facility. and the services that they provide over there. So that's one of the giga projects that we have. Another one is Gddiya as well, I think 20 million hours without any fatalities that are happening. But it's obviously something you're concerned about.

You're aware of it. Yes, yes, we're aware of it and we're looking into it. For sure, there's a lot of, you know, there's room to improve, but we want to work with the ILO and with all the entities and with all the right people to make sure that we put the right steps to, because welfare and health being for our workers and everyone working in Saudi is very important to us. What do you say to those who go, all you're doing is sports washing? This is all about airbrushing the human rights issues that Saudi has.

Same criticism was leveled at Qatar, of course, that it's about sports washing. I watched the Crown Prince's interview with Brett Bear at Fox News. And he was very like direct. He was very like, people want to say that. that fine, I don't care. But then he outlined what he believed it was about, which was that actually, self-evidently, the oil is running out. That has been what your big revenue earn has been, of course, for a long time. It is running out, and you have to replace that revenue somehow, and you've identified sport, tourism and entertainment as the best way potentially to replace the

dwindling oil revenues. So that's the argument that comes from people in Saudi. But what do you say to those outside who say, come off it, this is all about sports watching. Well, I mean, as His Royal Highness, the conference mentioned in that interview, is that what is the reflection of hosting these events in the kingdom? You know, we talk about in 2017, we had 32 federations. Today we have 97 federations. We talk about women sports, the possibility to host women events. You know, we just hosted WTA a month ago or just more than a month ago.

and the experience that the players came with. We had the same allegations before they come, and when they came, and you saw what they talked about when they were here, but today we have 50,000 tennis players in schools. I thought it's very significant to Billy Jean King, who's probably one of the great spokeswoman for tennis and for the LGBT community in world sport,

that she came out and was pretty supportive. I was surprised and then thought that was a very, very significant moment actually. There was a moment of people kind of drawing a bit of a line in the sand and saying, actually, we want to be part of this now. Saudi is investing billions and billions into sport and we think that's a better thing than the critics would suggest. 100% because they can see how it benefits the sport directly, but also how does it benefit the people living in Saudi Arabia in a positive way. And I don't think anyone around the world doesn't want benefit for anyone to try to come in and to see what we can develop from that.

I think, you know, just as I mentioned, you know, we have 50,000 students playing tennis today in schools. That didn't happen a year ago because of hosting these events. And because of these stars coming and they can, you know, aspire to be like these stars and so on to have opportunities to get there. So that's the real impact that we see, you know, and you're a big fan of boxing. and you attended in Los Angeles the boxing match and so on. What I loved about it, I have to be honest. I mean, it was a big boxing event in LA last summer. It was the Riyadh season it was called.

But in the middle of it, I didn't know what was going to happen. Up popped M&M to do a half hour concert. And I was like, this is great. And I do like the way that you guys are trying to combine the two things, sport and entertainment. You see it a bit like at the Super Bowl in America. But you don't see it a lot actually. In English football, for example, you don't get any entertainment to interfere with the football.

Sometimes watching my team, I wish we did. But is that a deliberate strategy to try and marry the two things? Yeah, I mean, it's all part of the 2030 vision within the quality of life program, within the 2030 vision, where we're all in that program to make sure that all the events that we have are connected together. To deliver the optimal experience that you can have. but also to enhance the entertainment. In the end of the day, it's all entertainment. Of course.

And to deliver on the best. And the standards that we have from the Crown Prince is always deliver on the best. I don't want any half jobs being done. He wants the best to be done in the right way. Do you accept that an element of sports washing is inevitable, whether it's intended or not, in the sense that obviously, if you put on great sporting events, great entertainment events and all these things,

that inevitably it's going to give a bit of a halo effect to any country that does it. I mean, look, I remember the London Olympics in 2012. I remember how it made us all feel in London. It made us feel great. And it put a great halo over the city, over the country, the Queen was leading it,

you know, it was James Bond was involved. And it felt great. I've got to say, disappeared pretty quickly after it was that feeling, so you'd be careful. But, you know, in a way, every country that puts on these events. Of course you're trying to show off your country at his best. So do you just accept that as part of it inevitably,

you're going to get that? Yeah, for sure. I mean, like, you know, as you mentioned, anywhere of the world you go to, you get that experience and that feeling that happens. But also, I think it's also that we're trying to invite the world to come and see Saudi Arabia. And I think these events attract people to come.

And, you know, there's a perception about Saudi. And you hear a lot in the media about Saudi. I think 100% have never. met anyone that did not come to Saudi in the past eight years and did not change or spoke positively in a way. What to you were the most annoying misconceptions as you would see it about this country? That all of these reforms did not tell you know when they talk about the women's gardening ship when they talk about the Kefala system with the for the workers that was all lifted it was all gone it's no longer there and I can't believe people still talk about it

it's been gone for years. I mean I was interested for example that for this interview I never having been to Saudi, I thought, well, they're probably going to have a lot of restrictions. They're going to tell me you can't talk about this, can't talk about that, nothing. And I'm saying that for the record, because I think it's significant. You haven't told me I can't ask you any of it, right? You haven't been any restrictions. In fact, you didn't want me to have any restrictions. I think a lot of people think that Saudi suppresses free speech.

And I think there's merit to that argument in many ways as a journalist. certainly I wouldn't have the same freedom as a journalist here that I do back home. But certainly in terms of our interactions, you've made no effort to censor me. I mean, you couldn't because the show is called uncensoreding. But I was struck by that. No, but that's who we are. And, you know, as I said, there is a perception about Saudi. And a lot of people talk about Saudi and they've never been to Saudi,

which also, you know, is mind-blowing to me as well. You know, how can you talk about somewhere or anyone that you, never met you've never talked to you don't you've never been to so cat's not heard the same thing exactly i just knew the ones that were in fact they said the most criticism came from the uk and uk journalists and it was interesting to me i did wonder have you any of you been there actually actually physically got on a plane and gone there to experience it because the experience the people had at the world cut didn't bear much relation to what was being written about back home i didn't feel yeah but they're all welcome to come to saudi who has never been to to saudi and that's

That's a discussion that I have with everyone that has any concerns with Saudi. There's a lot that they talk about in the media and so on, but come, see for yourself and then judge. And that will be very fair to me. But don't judge us and you don't know us and you've never been to Saudi. If you were criticizing Saudi Arabia, you were a journalist from the outside, I know it's not something you aspire to be, but if you were, what do you still need to do? What do you still need you think to work on, to improve? as part of this very fast-moving evolution that's going out.

And I'm going to come to your own experience of that because you've seen it firsthand, having lived here for 40-odd years. But when you look at Saudi Arabia now, where do you want it to get to quite quickly? What do you think are still the things that are... I think we should be more outspoken about who we are. I think we should be more connected to the world, and to be present.

And I think we're doing that, but not as to the same pace as we're doing compared to a lot of things that we're getting. Maybe because it's in our culture that we're a bit shy. And we need a bit of time to break the ice, as they say. But once that is done, then everything is open. And I think the hospitality that the Saudi people have is strikes a lot of people when they first come here. You know, you hear a lot of crazy stories about, you know,

certain things that happened during the event. You know, just last week we had the Dakar Ghali, and I will give you just a small glimpse to that. And one of the competitors on a motorbike dropped his phone in the desert. And a guy found his phone. And he actually followed the whole race for like two days. Two days? Yeah, two days.

To find the person. Really? Yeah. And he found who he was. So he connected to his wife through Instagram, who was in Australia. And she told them that this is the number because he had to come up, he had to issue a new SIM card because his phone is not with him. And he actually reports it, and you can see it on his social media,

that he's been following, oh, we came to this area and we didn't find him, we need to look for him. But in the end, he delivered the phone to him. And to make sure that it was his phone, he asked him to put the passcode and he put it in. But that was genuine. That was completely out, you know, that he wanted to do that. The Saudi guy that... I mean, I found since I've been here, not very long, I'm saying for the week, but people have been very welcoming, very hospitable,

and whether that's people that I would expect to be, because I'm their guest, but also just the public as I've been walking around, going to shops and talking to people. What I don't know is what happens when you get away from the guys, The glitz and glamour of the fire star hotels and me coming here. Which you should go. Yeah, maybe I should. You should come for a holiday and just experience the people.

Because I think it's our biggest asset. It's the people, it's the population, it's how friendly and how hospitable they are. And young. And young. 70% of Saudis are under 35. It's an amazing statistic. Only 4% of your population is over 65, I think. which is extraordinary yeah we have a very young population yeah and and we need to get

them busy with good stuff and and for the future health-wise and and also to get them you know to have a strong and prosperous society for for the future and do people get free health care here yes yeah and education and education is free you can you can have private as well if you want it you can have private yes but there's free for but there's free for everyone essentially the same kind of as a UK? Yes. The health and education. Yes.

And you can have private, of course, but there is health care for everyone. And also, you know, I think it's, that's the dynamic movement that you see that is happening. And I think everyone embraces this evolution with the 2030 vision. And that's what made also a lot of things move very quickly, is that it's that young population. Well, you have a young leader and you have a young population. Who understands what they want. Yeah. And he also has a young population.

And so there's a kind of relationship there. Yes. But also everyone's connected today through social media. They see all of these events, sporting events, and they see what's happening around the world. And they want it here. You know, I'm sure that a lot of Saudis went to Qatar to attend the World Cup where they never had the chance to travel, to go to other workplaces.

in the world just because it's next door. They can drive there, then they went there. And imagine of that opportunity what will happen to the Saudis that who can't travel, who can't go to these plans and bringing these events to them. But also when they see it on the ground, the effect of change that happens within them and the demand that comes very quickly after that, sometimes we have to catch up on what they want in terms of facilities and in terms of setting the right programs.

And, you know, I remember I was just mentioning before you attend the boxing in Los Angeles. And just to reflect to that in a very simple note is that when we had the first boxing event in 2018, it was, I think, Joshua Ruiz's fight. And we had six gyms in Saudi that had boxing. I know that boxing is big in the UK, in the U.S. and a lot of places. But in Saudi, it wasn't a big sport. And it was kind of a new sport to us. Now, I'm sure there's more than 100 gyms that have. have boxing into them.

We've hosted, after that, look how many boxing event. We've even sponsored boxing event abroad. But the number that struck me the most was the increase in participation by 300% in that sport. And that's the effect and that's the... Are you seeing the same with tennis and golf? With all sports. You know, we were talking about golf and to see the effect of what's happening in golf. and I remember the golf course that we have here in Riyadh,

hardly anyone talks about. Now it's fully booked and you can't go. I think there's a waiting time for a month to get a time to pay. I'm a big golf fan. I'm going to say I'm a little sad about the standoff between Live Golf and the PGA. I want it resolved. I think all golf fans want to see the best players back

regularly competing against each other. doesn't work having them all split most of the time. What do you feel about that? I totally agree. And I think that for the sake of the sport, I think nobody wants any issues within any sports or organizations. And I'm sure they will eventually come to an agreement to reach to something that will prosper the sport of golf.

I think that's the benefit that everyone should look for. And how do you develop the sport in a new way or how do you come with new ideas? And how do you go to new territories to spread these events? Is there a lot of hypocrisy, if you're honest? Like take the Gulf. You know, I found that some of the PGA side, when they put the old moral halo on, and I'm like, well, hang on, you do play in China, right?

I don't see you crying about oppression of Uighur Muslims, for example. You seem quite happy to associate yourselves with China, and yet you're making a big fuss about the morality. of Livgolf because they're in bed with the Saudis. Do you think it's hypocritical? In a way, yes. And I think a lot of people don't criticize themselves to see what the issue is.

They just criticize what they don't like and then they realize that they're doing the same thing. But I think that a lot have matured in the past years towards that actually, no, is it benefiting the sport? Then that's what we should be looking at. And I think there is where we should focus on today with whoever comes in investing or developing different sports. Is it benefiting the sport? Is this sport going to grow?

Is it going to attract more players? Is it going to attract more athletes to come in? Is it going to go to more territories around the world? Then that's what we should be focusing on to develop this sport. Because any growth is good for anyone, for everyone. Football is obviously getting bigger and bigger here in Saudi Arabia. I feel partly responsible. I feel like you should be thanking me really

because without my interview with Cristiana Ronaldo that led to him leaving Manchester United, he wouldn't be here. Leading the revolution. But I know, I spoke to him briefly last night, but I know that since he's coming, he's loved it. He's loved the experience. His family have loved it.

He's enjoyed building a brand new, well, not a brand new league, but certainly taking it to a brand new level. He now believes it's the fourth best league in the world, certainly comparative to say the French League. Some agree, some don't agree, but certainly the rate of change and improvement has been extraordinary here.

How big a deal, obviously in terms of money, it was a very big deal. Ronaldo became the highest paid athlete in the world with that deal. But how big a deal was it to get someone of his stature to come and lead the revolution in Saudi for football? Well, thank you for doing that. and helps with that. So, no, but I think, you know, he's an exceptional athlete

and he's an exceptional role model to everyone around the world. And you see that, and we saw that the first day he came, the impact that we have, you know, just being visible, just being in the world's eye that you're there. And how do we need to deliver on that? So a lot of progress with him in a lot of ways. And I remember that we discussed a lot of ways. And I remember that we discussed a lot of

lot regarding how do we uplift the league, how do we uplift the club that he plays with facility-wise, all of these things. You know, he's part of our contribution for the, for the 2034 ambassador to the 234 World Cup. So as an athlete to to have someone that has lived through it, and has won everything in it, is a unique situation. You know what's amazing? I watched him last night. I said to him, I want you to score a hat trick and then dedicated to me. And he scored one and had two disallowed.

I was like, we were so close. I'm sure he'll be able to say about that. And the last one was, unbelievably great goal. But he was fuming, raging about the last goal, because he knew it was a good goal. He knew it would be doing the rounds on social media. And, you know, fueling yet again the myth of Cristiano. And to see him so angry at the end was just extraordinary.

You think this guy's 40 next month. he's got nothing left to prove he's broken almost every record in football and yet it still matters to him but that's what makes him who he is and that's what makes him achieve all of this I think that fire and that desire from within to always keep on growing

and delivering and being there and I think that's the best role model that you can have for the youth that even that you've won it all is won everything and he doesn't need to prove anything to anyone but he still has that fire within him to move on

and to develop and to keep on giving. And I think that's the best example that you can have for an athlete. And that's what we want from our athletes to see, and we see it on the ground. You know, talking about the league, as soon as we signed with him, suddenly other players wanted to come.

Then they started to come, Namar, Benzima, Mehrez, all of the other players that started wanting to come. But also the exposure that we have of the more than 160 nations around the world are broadcasting the Saudi League today. the increase of revenue. Compared to how many before Christiana came?

I think 10. Really, yeah. So that's the difference. When I noticed Al Nasser Instagram account has 17 million followers. I think before he came, it was like... Two million, I think. Less than that, yeah. So all the metrics go to the roof when you sign a playoff.

A hundred percent. T-shirts. You find his t-shirts around the world and so on. So people, you know, you're there in the sporting world, that you're a spotlight today. And that puts a lot of responsibility on us to deliver on what people want as well. Is the strategy still to get these big-name marquee signings? Because one of the criticisms is that a lot of them are slightly older

and that you've not been getting enough of the younger up-and-coming stars. So until you do that, you can't really compete with the best leagues. Do you accept that? That was some of the claims that were happening. But when you see some of the signings that the clubs have done in the past year, especially in the summer, you know, most of them have been younger or 23 or younger than that. You know, our ambition with the league, and that's what we're working with them so hard, is that to have it because we believe in the sport and we believe in developing football

and we believe that we should have a strong league like anywhere else in the world. And we think that we have the capabilities to do that and the reason to do it, which is the people. You know, the fans are really big fans of football. And that creates that economy or that commercialization that develops from it. So you have fans that attend the matches. And then you have also the private sector coming in and creating that economy that can be sustainable for the future. And I think that's what we're looking mostly at. These players, of course, bring, they put the spotlight.

But also it shortcuts, a lot of things that we could have done in five years. We did it in one year. you know, enhancing, you know, one of the benefits that I had was Stephen Gerard coming to El Tifag. And I remember speaking to him and he was complaining about certain facilities and things that he needed requirements from the club. And I told them, listen, just send me what is a standard? Because we don't know. You come from the Premier League. You know what the standard is.

You know what this club's, what you need as a professional coach to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, you come from the Premier League. deliver on. So literally he gave us a standard of what needs to be developed in terms of infrastructure, in terms of what is the system that needs to be done within a club and so on. And we've cascated that on all the other clubs as well. And did he have a thing at the end that said, and I also want you to sign Mo Salo, my old team Liverpool? All clubs do that. And all coaches want that. Is he the biggest trophy right now? Because he's the most high-profile Muslim player in the world. He's arguably the one of the best two or three players in the world. He hasn't signed a new contract yet. Is he the big prize?

Well, definitely, because if he takes all the right boxes, even for us, would love to have him. He's Egyptian and we have a very good relationship and we feel like we're one with the Egyptians as well from our culture and our, you know, history and so on. So to have Mo Salah or other players that are good role models would be, you know, a pleasure and a pleasure. privilege to have in the Saudi League. Will it happen or not? That's up to the clubs to decide and to see what negotiations go on. But I think that, you know, at the end of the day, that, you know, coming back to the league is that we want the league to be within the top five watched and commercially driven leagues and strong leagues that people around the world aspire

to want to play there in the Saudi League. And I don't see that there's any harm with that. and we can collaborate with everyone in Europe to make sure that we can deliver on that. With the World Cup bid, one of the controversial aspects of it was that there were no other serious bidders that came forward. And in the end, nobody bid against you. So you had a free run.

Now, the FIFA evaluation report gave you a record high, 4.2 out of 5. You had the backing of 120 of FIFA's 211 members. And yet some have said there was a lack of transplant, that this all seemed to happen very quickly. How come Saudi just got away with this is what they're saying? What do you say to that? Well, as I mentioned before, I think a lot of people don't know that we've been working on it for us doing our homework.

And as you know, as a lot of athletes, they don't just show up on the race day and decide to perform and they do. They have to put a lot of performance and a lot of hard work before that to be ready on race day to deliver. And I think we know about race days because you used to drive professional. That's one of the, that's one of the... Including the Le Mans 24 hour. Yes. And I had a good... Sure.

Craving for speed in the moment. But I learned, you know, that from racing. You know, you can't just show up on a weekend and expect to deliver when you haven't put the time in. And because there's someone else putting it and being ready. And I think that, you know, we came really well prepared. We abide by the FIFA regulations. Everything was transparent. Everything was clear.

We had the support. We lobbied properly with a lot of the countries to support our bid. And I think that's what sealed the deal, that we just came well prepared. There were restrictions. I mean, people probably don't know this, a lot of people, that under the rotation policy, only bids from Asia and Oceania were considered for 2030. So that massively reduced the number of countries that could host it anyway. And countries like Australia were looking at it, but then didn't.

in the end of the end. Would it have helped you if somebody else had bid in the end, do you think? It helps us in a way that. In terms of the court of public opinion, the fact that nobody bid, it looked like, well, what are the Saudis done here, you know? And the answer may be, of course, absolutely nothing.

But the impression was, you must have done something to scare everybody off. We talk to everyone and we explain to everyone that we want to bid. And we talked to all the federations. We talked to, and we prepared to it. And I think that's why nobody came in, is because they saw how well prepared we were.

And I tell you, we reviewed the US bid, we reviewed the Qatar bid, we reviewed all of these things, what are the issues. We didn't know because at the time what the bid regulations are, that Feef hasn't announced it yet. But we wanted to be prepared. At least they're going to go within,

you know, they're going to move left to right, but within this parameter that is there. So we reviewed everything for six years that we prepared this file. And I think we just came well prepared and everyone knew that from the federations that we were there. And as I said, it was very transparent. It was very clear.

FIFA was very clear about it, not just for 34, but also for 30. And as you mentioned, maybe because of the cycle was for Asia and Oceania to be the only candidates that could bid at the time, is helped. Yes, it did. That we don't go into any bidding war with anyone else. But in the end, you have a really strong bid. 430 which will go to Portugal, Spain, Morocco and South America. And it will highlight celebrating 100 years for FIFA as well, which I think it will be an

amazing experience between these three different destinations or continents. Before that you have the US, of course, with the territory and going to the US and seeing how large the US is and knowing... Do you think journalists are going to give the same scrutiny? to US, Canada and Mexico and their human rights records as you're going to get? No, but it is what it is. That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, but it is.

Many would say if you look at Mexico, you look at a lot of America's foreign policy in the last 50 years, a lot of legitimate questions to be raised there, but I suspect we're not going to get the same negativity. But that's not going to stop us from doing what's right and what we think is right for us. And I think everyone has the right to do that. we're doing it in a way that we're open to the world and asking everyone to share this journey with us. Things change very quickly and some things want. It will take time to change. But just give us the time to evolve and develop towards that.

FIFA said that the stage in the tournament of the kingdom, Robert Tern has a medium human rights risk. It claimed it had a good potential to act as a catalyst for reformers, which we know are ongoing. The Saudi bid had a good overall commitment to sustainability. and was deemed low risk when it came to environmental protection. So that was all quite positive. Amniss International condemned the decision to have the World Cup here in Saudi, issued a joint statement on behalf of 21 separate organisations, said FIFA's reckless decision to award the World Cup to Saudi Arabia

without ensuring adequate human rights protections in place will put many lives at risk. That was their head of labour rights and sports, Steve Coburn. And they said based on clear evidence to date, FIFA and those workers would be exploited, and even die without fundamental reforms in Saudi Arabia and yet has chosen to press the head regardless. We talked about the migrant worker issue. But just on the issue of human rights and what Amnesty International say, a lot of people will think Amnesty International is a very respected organization and if they say that there are proper causes for concern. What do you say to people?

Well I say that no one's perfect. Everyone's developing, everyone's working towards a better future for their nation and a lot of these issues that we face today a lot of nations have been through, you mentioned some of them and how things have developed towards that. And we are doing what we think is right for us and for the people in the kingdom and what we think will develop to a better future for everyone in the kingdom, but also in the region. And I think that a lot of people talk about Saudi and have claims about Saudi, but they've never been here.

They've never seen what the reality is. A lot of these claims, when you really dig deep into the cause of it, you find in the end that someone broke the law. in the end to face any of these issues that arise, but the story is not told and full towards that. We have a legal system or judicial system that is completely independent, that is monitored by the Human Rights Watch in Saudi. Everyone has the right to defend themselves and so on in legal cases and so on.

And we take these things very seriously to evolve in the right way. You know, we talked about the workers and so on, and we are evolving, we are developing, we are moving forward towards that. Some things, as you mentioned, you know, will move very quickly and so on. Some will take time for, you know, our culture and our things to change, but we're just asking that, you know, respect us for who we are and believe in what we're doing because we've showcased that in the past with these reforms that are happening within the kingdom and we've delivered on it. And we will continue to work with the right organizations like the ILO and FIFA to make sure that we deliver on our role towards these accusations that are happening. There have been calls for countries like Russia to be banned from the World Cup indefinitely at the moment people are saying. If it came to it, would you be happy for Russia as things stand to compete in 2034? I mean, that decision is with FIFA.

It's not with us. But we don't mix politics with sports at all. You know, I've mentioned that to some of the countries that we host their clubs and some of their athletes that come to Saudi, we don't have any political relationship with them. But they still come and they still, you know, attend the events and so on. So we don't politicize or categorize. When you see the controversy over the cricket, for example, with Afghanistan,

who have a men's team, but the Taliban have banned all women from competing in sports. There's no women's team. Which breaches, it would seem, the international, well the ICC, the governing body of cricket, it breaches their rule that you must feel a male and female team. England are due to play them very soon, actually, or a pressure building that maybe England should refuse to play. Even though the Afghan men's team is not based in Afghanistan, it's based outside, that the principle should be if the Taliban are going to stop women competing in sport,

then we shouldn't be encouraging playing in the men's game. What do you think? I think the athletes shouldn't be a victim of political decisions. I think every athlete that wants to compete in any... That's my personal view, to be honest. And, you know, a lot of sanctions happen in the sports world and so on. But in the end of the day, for political reasons and the end of the day the victims are the athlete. Nothing changed politically.

But who did not, who missed an opportunity to go to a big tournament or an international event or Olympics or the World Cup because of a political decision where they've lived their whole life to deliver on this opportunity that they have.

And he has no change in it. He can't change that. So the athletes won't be able to change that. So they should have be used in a way for to be politicized in a way. That's what I personally think, you know, and I think, you know, not mixing politics with sports, just leave sports as natural as it is and welcoming to everyone and giving the opportunity to everyone to compete in sports.

That should be the ideal, I think, way forward for these international. Would you be comfortable if Israel compete here? They do. They do already? Yeah, they do. And that's been ongoing, since the war in Gaza? Yeah, yeah, they do. some Israeli athletes that come for some of the international events that we have.

We have no issue with them coming and competing. That's what I'm saying, that we don't mix. Some of our athletes play against the Israeli teams in international events. And that's not a political decision at all. It's a sporting decision. That's how we look. We stand firmly with the Palestinian people, and we've been speaking politically,

the government has been speaking politically in support of the Palestinian people and doing everything for the Palestinian people and we condemn the war in Palestine and Israel but that has nothing to do with the sporting events. Donald Trump is the President of the United States again. He's a massive sports fan. Loves his boxing, loves his golf, nearly lost his life on a golf course last summer.

You know, is this a good thing? Do you think? He obviously likes Saudi Arabia, has a good. relationship with the Crown Prince. He's already said that it might be one of the first trips he makes. Is this a good thing that he's been re-elected for you guys? If he loves sports, yes. But that's what I can talk about. No, as he mentioned, he's a big sports fan, he believes in it. And I think that the relationship between Saudi and the US has been ongoing for a lot of years. And I think it's deeply rooted that we're,

you know, we're allies and a lot of things. But we work very closely with sports institutions within the the US Olympic Committee in the US and a lot of our students are actually studying in the US there and we have programs with certain universities for our athletes for scholarship programs and and and so on so I think you know having a leader that understands sports and the importance of sports and and you can speak to him freely about that I think is a benefit for everyone and in the world of sports I would say You're sports mad yourself, and you were, like I said earlier, you were a professional racing driver. Very successful.

You won a lot of races. You competed in some big events to Le Mans 24 and others. What did that teach you about yourself, about leadership? And when you're in elite sport at the highest level, to be a sports minister now having done that, that's got to be an advantage. Well, it taught me a lot, I'll be honest. And I think that's why I think sports is very important, not totally that it's nice and it's entertaining. and so on. But when you do it on a top level, it doesn't become anymore that joyful sometimes. You feel very stressed and under a lot of pressure and no days off and missing a lot of holidays

and things that you'd wish to go to. But then it teaches you, you know, discipline. It teaches you respect and it teaches you that it's okay to fail and to grow up and to learn from it and move on. I think what it benefited me most in today and what we're doing today is that the long hours that we spend in the office, sometimes days without, we're very short sleep from, you know, my previous career in motorsport is that how you do endurance racing. So we used to spend, you know, Lamar 24 hours, Nevergreen 24 hours, Dubai 24 hours, all of these long races. And sometimes you always sleep for one hour during the 24 hours and you have to be ready to perform and compete. Good practice for this, then.

Exactly, yeah. So a lot of that is reflected in my daily life, but also setting a program for yourself and being disciplined to that program. Because you know what the outcome is. And I learned the hard way. I wasn't very disciplined when I started. And I think I was just quick by talent, but then when I reached to a certain level, I didn't evolve, I didn't grow. And I realized that I was missing something. And I remember my first race that I did my first 24 hours race in a proper GT3 class, which was the highest in the Dubai 24 hours race, is that we, I did a couple of stents and I went to Ata and I was completely destroyed. I couldn't perform anymore because it was the longest race and I was just physically not ready. Then I realized that you actually have to do a lot of cardio, a lot of... A lot of the weights before you get in the car.

Exactly, which I didn't do before. Christiana could have told you that. Exactly, but I didn't know the know-how. I didn't have the know-how at the time. As I said, you know, sports were freshly developed in the kingdom and very, you know, some sports didn't have any representation at the time. And we're talking about 2005, 2006. So it's not been a long time ago. But I think that's what sports gives you the drive to keep on trying, to keep on going.

And it keeps that in you, that fire that you want and looking for other ways to win. And finding other options and other solutions to do so. So I really think that it represents a lot of, you know, I think maybe 80 or 60 to 80% of who I am today is. is because of the history that I went through. But I also started very late. I started when I was 21. Imagine if I started when I was four years old. So that's what we're trying to do.

It could have been Lewis Hamilton. Maybe. Really, maybe, if I had the opportunity. But that's what we want to, what we... That's interesting about opportunity, isn't it? Because it seems to me, from everything I've gleaned since I've been here and prepping to come here, there's much more opportunity now for you.

young Saudis to perhaps do what you wish you'd done. That's what I'm talking about. You start all this stuff a lot of it because now they can become a racing driver. They can become a tennis player. There's one amazing story about two young orphan girls who because of the previous rules, laws about women having to have a guardian. They didn't have a guardian because they were orphans. So they can do anything.

And now the rule changed and now they're playing in the national women's football team. That's an amazing story. A lot of people will think, well, of course they should, but actually it's an illustration of how fast things have changed. That's what I'm trying to reflect on is that a lot of the opportunities that I did not have, sitting here speaking to you,

that I want my kids to have and the younger generation to have that they can just live a normal life that we consider and have normal opportunities to grow in different things. You mentioned the two orphans that we have. and they play in the national team

and they scored actually the first ever goal for Saudi Arabia and a proper sanctioned matched by FIFA and so on and now they're in the FIFA ranking for the first time. We have a Saudi League that's broadcasted on FIFA Plus throughout the world. That wasn't available three years ago, three years ago. Imagine that opportunity for these two girls, that needed a guardianship, because they were often, they didn't have a guardianship,

so they had nothing to do. Or they couldn't do anything. You have two children? Yes. I think a son and a daughter. You've been through an extraordinary period yourself in the life of Saudi Arabia, where, ironically, you probably had it toughest, right? Your parents probably had it a bit easier. You have the hard yards, and then your kids are going to have a very different experience.

Yeah, we've gone through a lot of social movement. I would say, you know, a lot of things were allowed in the past and then they were not allowed such as cinemas and so on. Right, so tell me that because that's interesting. So, you know, just to reflect a bit, you know, people think that, you know, don't, can't relate to what we, what I'm talking about is that, you know, my mother and father grew up in mud houses. And today you have skyscrapers and they're still alive. They saw that. His, his majesty, the custodian of the two holy mosque, who has been the governor of Rialb for over 50 years. He saw the city of Riyadh move from mud houses to skyscrapers. That's one generation of development and so on. So life has really changed so much from going through that we had

the normal things such as cinemas. And you know, you had this someone who was going around the houses and with an old cinema projection and they would book him per day to watch and gather and watch movies to having it forbidden and then having it back again and you were in the forbidden stage so imagine you're living in and isn't that's isn't that surreal isn't it that your parents had a more free existence than you did and now your kids will have the most free experience of all and that's all happened in the space of and how old do you if you don't mind me asking 41 41 that all happened in the space of under 50 years yeah this extraordinary It's extraordinary, evolution, I would say, and different phases that we've been through.

And that's why I think that we know what benefits us the most. And we listen and we hear and we're close to the requirements of what people want on the ground. And I think that's why a lot of this change also happened very quickly without any issues, is people accept it and people want it to happen. And it takes a strong leadership to take these decisions. to make that change in society towards the best for the future. And some decisions, you have to take them today, that will feel the effects in a couple of years coming.

But coming to the opportunities is that, you know, I think the thing is that my son will not know the life that I lived and didn't have these opportunities, or my son and daughter. And giving them these opportunities will let them start in an earlier age, be brighter for the future hopefully and put the right steps for them to grow stronger for the future

and I think that's the opportunity that we are delivering today on the ground through sports, through entertainment, through culture, through a lot of the social change that is happening but also through business and reforming our economy and diversifying our economy for the future and being more sustainable

and being more present in the future. I'm somebody who likes monarchies I love the British monarchy. Obviously, a very close relationship between the British monarchy and the monarchy here. Yes. What's your thought about monarchy, the idea of it? Are you a fan of the

idea of a monarchy? I am. You're a member of it. I'm probably not speaking to the most impartial observer, but do you think it's a sustainable model going forward, say 100, 200 years? I think so. I think you can see the benefits. You can see the decisions that are taking place. You can see the right decisions are in place.

It works maybe differently from country to country and here we're very connected to the people, we're part of the people, we go to the same schools, we go to the same, there's no isolation or differences between the monarchy here and so on. So we know the needs of what goes on on the ground and I think that helps a lot in decision-making. But also we come from a tribal, you know, I would say, history throughout the Arab world, but especially in the Arab Peninsula, is this tribal unity that is there between the different tribes and the different families that's keeping or that's evolving in the way that evolved.

You know, to unify Saudi Arabia, King Abraaziz, to unify the founder of Saudi Arabia, to unify Saudi Arabia 90 years ago or more, you know, riding a horse from one area to or another, there weren't any planes, there weren't any, you know, cars or anything like that. He couldn't have done it alone. He's done it with a lot of people. And he used the right tools and the right leadership to showcase that he can be the leader of Saudi Arabia. And people wanted him to be. And I think that's a burden on us as a royal family to always deliver on what the people want.

But I think also, you know, it takes, in the end, a good life. leader is a good leader. That's very, wherever you are on the world. Whatever you do. Exactly. I think we're very fortunate to have the leadership of the custodian of the two holy mosque, King Selman, and his royal highness and we're very fortunate to his enthusiasm, his passion, and his work ethics that have been implemented in the past eight years that we see on the ground today.

I remember when the 2030 vision was announced, everyone was saying, this is just going to be on paper and nothing's going to happen. And today it's on the ground. You see the fruit, you know, one of our KPIs was to have Saudis participate in sports half an hour or more, reaching 40% of Saudis participate in sports, half an hour or more by 2030. A day or a week? A week.

It was 13% in 2000. 2015. So 40% of Saudis to participate half an hour or more per week. By 2030, we achieved 48% this year. And we had to change our regulations and our KPI because now we abide by the WHO with 150 minutes per week. So it increased towards that. That says to me that the people who obviously we know there are young populations They want this. 100% yeah. They want to play more sport.

They want to be more active. And we have to give them that. Yeah. And develop on that. But we have to do it and put the right steps towards them and work with everyone, all the experts around the world to make sure that you can deliver on the right world. Does it frustrate you sometimes as a Saudi Prince, a member of the Royal Family here, that you do so much business, say with countries like the UK, arms deals, trade deals, whenever

you come any of the senior members of the family to you get fated by the royal family in our country you own a lot of stuff in the UK and yet there still will be a lot of people in the UK you've never been here who just have an incredibly negative view of Saudi Arabia of the people the government and so on do you feel frustrated by that I used to be in the beginning and then I said will that change me no will that change what we're doing no We know what we need to do, we know what's best for us, and we have to keep on going, despite whoever says anything about us. But I really would love, you know, whoever has an opinion about Saudi Arabia and has never been to Saudi Arabia,

please come, come and see our country, come and meet the people on the ground. I am 100% sure that your perspective about Saudi Arabia will be changed. Come and visit the kingdom, come and see Saudi Arabia. You know, sometimes if you can't come, sometimes they do exhibition. and events around there in the UK or around the world. Go and attend them and see if you are curious, of course, about Saudi Arabia and so on. So please do come and see, because it's a different world, you know. And that's the beauty of traveling, I think.

You get to experience other parts of the world. I've traveled to Middle East for 30-odd years. I've been to many, I don't know why I've never come here, it's not been deliberate. But it's great to be here. I just always have felt that if you go a lot to the Middle East, very different impression of it to people who never go. Yeah. And it's just one of those realities.

But it's the same everywhere in the world. If I, you know, if I've never been to any country around the world, you only know what you hear about it. But when you go and see for yourself, then it's a different perspective of what it is. Funny, Saudi 2034 is growing together is the mantra. So you're going to keep growing, keep growing. Football gets better and better. You get more and more players, the league gets better.

The homegrown players get raised, suddenly, you think, wow, we've got a team here. In the first ever World Cup in a Middle East country in Qatar, the last one, you beat Argentina, Saudi Arabia in the first round. And they went on to win the tournament. Is the ultimate dream for you, 2034 World Cup final, Saudi Arabia, they win the World Cup Cup? And if so, who would you most like to beat in the final?

I think it's an ultimate dream for everyone. Why would you compete in the World Cup if you don't want to win it? Do you think you can? I think if we put the right steps in, if we work on the right programs, it's not going to be easy because everyone's working towards that. A lot of countries are much well developed and established than we are. But I truly believe in miracles from what I've seen in this country. and from the leadership and so on.

If you ask me, just to relate to that, if you ask me five years ago, you're going to host Formula One, I'm going to tell you you're dreaming. We host Formula One today. And I come from that field of motorsports and so on. So I think anything is possible in sports. I mean, you've seen, I think, this year in the Olympics,

the most medals to countries, I think, was awarded in the Olympics this year. So a lot of countries with very, you know, economically very poor and so on, but they have an Olympic champion who's won a gold medal. And I think that's the beauty of sports, is that it gives everyone a chance to win and to work hard towards aspiring to that goal. Is it possible? Yes. Nothing is impossible.

Who do you most want to beat? England? United States? With Donald Trump crying in the background? Honestly. One of your neighbors? Yeah. It would be nice to see two Gulf countries in the final.

And we win. Which one? Which one would be most satisfying? Any of them, to be honest. Yeah, any of them. But I think, no, I think it doesn't make a difference if you win it. Saudi three, Egypt two. That would be a nice result.

No, but I think, you know, if you talk to the sports minister, Egypt he'd say the same thing of course so of course so I think it's very it's very it's the ultimate goal for everyone yeah is it possible we've seen a lot of remarkable things in sports you know Morocco reaching the semi-finals and with amazing team yeah Croatia with a very young population reaching the final I think twice you know my favorite quote Nelson Mandela who had the pleasure of interviewing many years ago and he had this great quote it always seems impossible until it's done yeah true yeah that should be your mantra for winning that is our mancha growing together and it's always been impossible unless someone doesn't it's great to meet you

and uh to come here and really see it for myself i think it's going to be a great world cup inshallah it will and you're all welcome to come especially you peers and hopefully we enjoy the matches and 2034 when england beat you 5 4 in the final just don't take it out on me let's let's wait and see we'll do the same as what we did with argentina you're Royal Hunness, thank you very much your time. Thank you so much.