Piers Morgan Uncensored - October 7, One Year On - With Norman Finkelstein & Naftali Bennett

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

One year ago today, Hamas terrorists burst through the barriers walling off Israel from Gaza and massacred more than 1,100 innocent people, taking 250 more as hostages. The sheer scale of the atrocity, and the animalistic barbarism of the killers, shocked the world. It was just the latest in a conflict spanning decades - and still, Israelis and Palestinians continue to live side-by-side no nearer to peace. What will happen next? Piers Morgan is joined by former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett before hosting a debate between political scientist and activist, Norman Finkelstein, Egyptian journalist Rahma Zein, Israeli-American commentator Emily Shrader and former British Army Officer and board member of Friends of Israel Initiative, Colonel Richard Kemp. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is not just about land. It's not just about territory. It's not even about a Palestinian state. Right now in Tehran, there is a banner that says the state of Israel needs to be eliminated from the face of the earth. They even wrote it in Hebrew. Most Arab countries in the region are very firmly on the side of Israel. They want Israel to defeat Hisbalah. Don't speak on behalf of Arab countries. Because they recognize that Iran. You can use all the Queens English that you like.

It's not going to cover the truth of the matter of the fact. that Zionism is working on a press treaty. You don't only want to control the Middle East, you want to control the airwaves in the entire world. Bad news, but I believe we're closer to the beginning than to the end. Why is it, Mr. Kemp? Why did Israel fire two tank shells

at a building housing, 54 children with disabilities? Does that sound to you like a war, Mr. Kemp? Or does it sound to you like a war? genocide. The world did not begin on October the 7th, but it did change. And just as it's reductive to ignore the decades of conflict before that callous attack, it's ignorant to pretend but it doesn't underpin the chaos and suffering now engulfing the Middle East. A year ago, Hamas terrorist burst through the barriers walling off Israel from Gaza and massacred more than 1,200 innocent people, taking 250 more as hostages. The sheer scale of the atrocity and the

animalistic barbarism of the killers shocked the world. It decimated Israel's sense of security with chilling echoes of the Holocaust. It brought Israel into direct conflict with Iran's proxy militias and ultimately with Iran itself. The world today is a different and a more dangerous place and it is because of what Hamas did in October the 7th. That doesn't mean that every injustice before or since can be justified. So why do I repeatedly ask supporters of the Palestinian calls to condemn Hamas? Well, quite simply, it's an essential. of their humanity. If you're so blindly by your hatred of Israel, that you can't bring yourself to be repulsed by the savagery of October the 7th and condemn it, how can you possibly

have a fair-minded view on the compromises that will be needed on the long road to peace? And let me be equally clear, the exact same thing applies in the other direction. If you cannot mourn the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians, if you can't acknowledge their long-standing oppression and suffering, then why should I trust you to have a constructive view on their future? 10 to thousands of innocent Palestinians have been killed in the war on Hamas. That's a fact. Many thousands more are confined with their grief in a territory has become little better than a prison camp,

with more than half of its buildings now in ruins. And now Beirut is burning as the IDF bombards Lebanon. The world is watching anxiously to see how Iran will respond to the decapitation of its client militias. It's now more likely than ever that Israel and Iran could enter a war that would embroil the United States and Britain too. And all the while, the people of Gaza remain trapped in what looks increasingly like a permanent occupation with no Israeli exit strategy. So yes, the world did not begin on October the 7th.

But wow, it did change a lot. The only thing that did not change and will not change is that Israelis and Palestinians living side by side, cheek by jow, neighbor by neighbor, has to be the way that everybody works to to find peace. There is no other way. In a moment, I'll discuss this with my panel. But first, the former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett is not currently involved in politics,

at least officially. But polls show he's the favoured choice of Israelis to replace Benjamin Netanyahu, and he joins me now. Nafthali Bennett, thank you very much indeed for rejoining me on Uncensored. The Secretary General of the United Nations is calling for a ceasefire and overall de-escalation across the Middle East. It would seem that Israel is pursuing the complete opposite path, and you've indeed called for that Secretary-General's resignation.

Why? Because the idea to seize fire after we've been massively attacked and the threat continues to exist is ridiculous. Iran just lobbed 200 additional ballistic missiles at Israel. Chisbalah's been pounding our cities for 11 months, now 12 months. Hamas murdered, raped, tortured, kidnapped our people. And now the Secretary General expects us to suddenly stop and say, you know, now we'll just wait. And for the next time, that doesn't make any sense.

What is the end game? We need to remove the threat. But what is it? Okay, I understand that. But what is the end game? Given that we're now hearing the same rhetoric we heard in Gaza, which is that Hezbollah are hiding in civilian areas. That's why Israel has to bomb civilian areas.

And if there are casualties on the civilian side, that's collateral damage. We heard all this with Gaza. Now half of Gaza has gone up in ruins. It's the objective here that you will just destroy anything, anything and anyone that gets in the path of removing Hezbollah and Hamas. And what is the acceptable level of civilian collateral damage in that process? And what is the endgame? What happens after this?

What kind of Gaza and Lebanon are we left with? The endgame is a secure Israel and indeed a secure Middle East. with the horrible threats of Iran, Chisbalah, and Hamas gone. What we thought for many years, what our leadership in Israel thought, is that we can live with these sort of threats, with these sort of Nazi-type threats. What October 7th taught us is that we can't. When our enemies say we want to annihilate the Jews, they mean it.

And now we've seen it in action on October 7th. But that's only a miniature model of what would happen if we do not take care of Iran and indeed, Chisbalah, the regime in Iran. So in Gaza, what we want to see is a prosperous Gaza, but we must retain the security responsibility, so Hamas cannot rebuild. In Lebanon, we want to see a prosperous Lebanon that has been hijacked by Chisbalah. So we are now dramatically degrading Hezbollah. So if it were a company, we've taken out the CEO,

taken out the board of directors, taken out most of mid-management. This is a huge opportunity for the people of Lebanon to take charge of their country again. We will not tolerate Hezbollah on our border anymore, period, full stop. Right, but what is the amount of collateral damage in terms of civilian deaths that you're prepared to, countenance as you prosecute Hezbollah?

The question should not go to us. The question should go to Hezbollah itself. If they plant rockets within homes, that is no longer a home. It's a terror base. If they decide to murder their own children by placing children there, that's at their doorstep. You should ask them. You indicated that you think it's time to go after Iran and its leadership and its nuclear

program. there are many people who sense that there is a timidity from Iran in responding to the attacks on Hamas and Hezbollah, which suggests that they know they could not withstand a direct attack from Israel. They don't have the capability, certainly not to do any kind of meaningful counterattack. Is that your belief?

And do you believe that this is a unique opportunity for Israel to actually go and topple the Iranian regime? Yes. Yes, this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity, because Iran's strategy, as I called it, the octopus of terror, the head of the octopuses in Tehran, and it sends its arms all across the Middle East. But two of its most important arms, Hamas and Chisbalah, are dramatically weakened, and right now cannot mount an effective retaliation.

So, in effect, Iran is laid bare and is vulnerable. And if we don't take care of Iran, if we leave Iran as it is, they'll rebuild their tentacles. They're going to fund anew-hisbalah, fund anu-Kamas. Only if we neutralize their nuclear program and hit the head of the octopus, ultimately, not tomorrow, but ultimately within a few years toppling the Iranian regime, that'll bring a whole new future to the Middle East. and it's possible because this regime is not only very radical and savage, it's also corrupt, incompetent, and despised by its own people. So what we can do, what we can essentially do is give a gift to the wonderful people of Iran by hitting its regime, hitting the nuclear facilities,

and allowing its people to press for regime change. There are many critics of the Israeli government and Prime Minister Netanyahu who believe that he has been acting a lot in self-interest, that he knows he's facing corruption charges when this is all over, so there's no incentive for him to try and bring this to any speedy halt, and that he's getting more popular the more he bombs Lebanon, and therefore there's no incentive for him to even think about any kind of ceasefire in that particular fighting.

You know, you've been very critical yourself of Netanyahu. is he the right person to be leading Israel right now, or should it be somebody like you? You know, I don't try to get into someone's brain and his intentions. Right now, Israel is united behind the need to hit Iran's regime and to stop its nuclear progress. I want to point out, peers, that Iran is at its most advanced point in history in terms of its nuclear program.

It's accumulated enough high-grade enriched uranium to produce 10 bombs. It's reached the amount for 10 bombs, and it's moving forward manufacturing the device itself, the detonator. We cannot allow this to be. Now, it wasn't me. It was President Biden, who two years ago vouched that he would not allow Iran to acquire a nuclear weapon. He would use all of America's tools to stop that. This is money time. It's now. If we think this is a theoretical scenario, I'd say that until a year ago, we thought that it's a theoretical scenario that 6,000 terrorists would invade Israel and butcher and burn and rape Israelis. So this is reality. Israel is doing the hard, tough work on behalf of the free world. I mean, Iran's not going to stop there. America is the big Satan in their jargon. Israel, this small Satan.

So I expect the world to help us in this, in my opinion, heroic battle against the forces of evil. But there are many people who believe that the sheer volume of civilians, women, children, being killed in such huge numbers. And if the Lebanon offensive continues the way that the Gaza one did, there'll be 10 to thousands more potentially killed, that is simply unjustified that Israel may have a right to defend itself. Everyone understands that you want to protect yourselves and your people

from Hamas and Hezbollah and obviously Iran whose tentacles like you say are right behind it all, but at what cost? And you know that a lot of global public opinion has been railing against Israel. It's become a lonelier and lonelier place for Israel in these battles that you're fighting. Are you not concerned that at the end of all this, you end up with two things. A very isolated country, reviled by a lot of the world, But secondly, you would have killed the ideology that when you kill tens of thousands of civilians in Gaza and maybe potentially again in Lebanon, you're fueling the ideology behind the groups like Amas and Hezbollah, which were forged out of what they perceived to be Israel's oppression and occupation.

I dispute that assumption, peers. Israel has not been aggressive towards Gaza nor Lebanon. In fact, we have no territorial claim, neither in Lebanon nor in Gaza. Our strategy, Israel's strategy, for many years, was to allow them to prosper, yet they decided they want to turn their countries into terror bases against Israel. So there's no basis for saying that, you know, when we let go of them, they lay down their arms, quite the contrary. The only way to do away with this ideology is to destroy these terror groups.

It's like the Nazis. You could not barge in in December of 1944 and persuade the Nazis to let go of their ideology. The only way for them to do away with that ideology is to win. Once you beat the Nazis, once you remove that regime, they could engage in the next stage. And I think that's a possibility in Lebanon and Gaza. And one last point. There's an airplane right above me right now. If we give in to this modus operandi that says that when they hide their rockets and their terrorists amid their children, that turns them into immune, that means that every terrorist in the world, in London, Paris, New York, will use the very same strategy.

That would be the biggest mistake. We have to fight terrorists, even though they use that cynical strategy. otherwise they'll continue to use that strategy and you'll get it all around the world and again Israel is doing the hard work the thankless work on behalf of the world we continue getting criticized but we're doing the work for everyone else

so it's so easy to sit on the woke benches and say you know this is not okay I would only suggest one thing give us an alternative tell us what would you do if you got 200 ballistic missiles over the weekend on your homes in Miami or New York or Los Angeles. What would you do if 1,400 Americans or Brits were raped, burnt in their houses and kidnapped by these terror groups?

Natharly Bennett. Thank you very much indeed for joining me again. I appreciate it. Thank you, Pierce. Well, to debate all this, I'm joined by the political scientist and activist, Norma Finkelstein, the Egyptian journalist Ramazane, Israeli-American commentator Emily Schrader and the former British Army officer

and board of member of Friends of Israel Initiative, Colonel Richard Kemp. Thank you all very much indeed for joining me. Ramazane, let me start with you. What should Israel have done after October the 7th, given what Hamas did that day and given that Hezbollah immediately joined in

by firing rockets at them and they were under a two-pronged attack from these two groups? What else could Israel have done, but do what it's doing. Okay, so the thing is, I want to start off with Manyamín Bejan, who said, in spying as in war, the legend of success is in itself success. And this has been the case since October 7th.

They have played the card that they are the democracy of the Middle East. It's about the hostages. They want to annihilate us. And what has happened so far is this facade of Zionism has dropped. And in Israel, shooting at the world, they have also shot themselves in the foot. I'm going to assume that your question was about October 7th because I can't hear very well. And what we're seeing now, which is exactly what the UN Secretary General has said, which is we have no real power.

Let's be honest. The body of the UN that holds some power is paralyzed. And it is exactly this inefficiency to stop. stop Israel's war crimes now that has led to the 7th of October. And you will have more 7th of October to come because it is unnatural for a people to be occupied and sit idly by. It is actually quite a racist notion to assume such. Okay. Let me bring in Colonel Kent.

Colonel Ken, this whole issue of occupation, I mean, it seems to me that, however you try and argue this point, that after October the 7th, Israel had the ability, the power, to control food going into Gaza, energy going into Gaza, water going into Gaza. I don't know what else you would call that power and control other than occupation. I mean, I know they didn't physically occupy it since 2005 when Hamas took power. But Israel has got this control over Gaza in a way that people in Gaza and many around the world feel is completely unacceptable. Well, you're talking about before October the 7th, I assume, are you? Yeah, I'm not talking about the argument they put forward,

which is what else would you expect, but for groups to rise up to try and resist what they perceive to be a glorified prison camp, life for all their people. Yeah, well, Israel left Gaza in 2005 with the intention of it becoming a flourishing free territory. And what happened, Hamas took control very soon after that, and they turned it into a military. based to attack Israel from. Israel had no choice other than to control what was going in and out

as best it could. Of course, don't forget that Gaza also has a border with Egypt and Israel did not control that border. But Israel controlled the borders on its own country and did everything it could to prevent weapons being developed and built up and imported into Gaza. And what would any other country do? It was the obvious thing to do. It had to be done. And that did include, of course, in some cases control of some of the electricity and some of the water. I wouldn't personally describe it as an occupation. I think it was a very reasonable defensive operation around Gaza to prevent Hamas from attacking Israel from Gaza.

And don't forget as well that Israel increasingly allowed more and more civilians from Gaza to come out of the territory and work in Israel and allowed many to travel through Israel and go to hospitals and to fly out of Israel to get treatment when necessary. And many of those people who were working, as I understand it, who were working along the Gaza border before the 7th of October, they were the ones who provided a lot of the information to Hamas, and indeed in some cases joined in the attack.

So I think, you know, Israel, to an extent, tried to open the borders, tried to make it a more bearable life for the people in Gaza and was repaid by 7th of October. Okay, well, Romney, just respond to. to that, I'm sorry, before I get a Norman. Yeah. Response. I'm so sorry. Can I just interject really quickly?

Yes. Can I interject really quickly? I find it very bizarre that it's Colonel Kent, who is stating this, since he was embedded in the Israeli army during the Great March of Return. And I want to ask you, sir, was it your idea to shoot Palestinians and

aim to name them as they peacefully marched for their normal and basic rights? This is something that you have boasted about before, bear in mind. I wasn't embedded in the IDF then or at any other time, but what I would say about that is that the Great March of Return was part of a Hamas plan to do what it did on the 7th of October.

And some of the people who were so-called protesting on the border had match on them that showed direct routes the nearest settlements and equipment so they could carry out the kind of massacre that Hamas did itself on the 7th of October. This is what we are all so sick of. breaking through the border. All of these things, it was the first attempt to do the 7th of October, which failed.

This is, look, sir, you can use all the, you can use all the Queen's English that you like. It's not going to cover the truth of the matter of the fact that Zionism is working on a press release. They work on this image where they regurgitate

news, they repeat in order for it to be truth, whether it's Hamas, whether it's Hezbollah, was Hamas in a car where Hind, Hind, Raghab, was shot at 355 times, was Hamas in the Shifa hospital, a rumor that was debunked. We keep hearing the same narrative

put into play and regurgitated. Because guess what? The only way that Israel thrives is to dehumanize Arabs. So they dehumanize in order to get away with brutalizing them. And we are so sick of listening to this narrative, but this facade is not present anymore

because everyone is seeing Israel for what it actually is. It is an occupation. It is killing civilians. For example, just now killing Hassan Ahmed, who is a 19-year-old journalist, whose remains was left in a bag and a box. You really expect his father to then come and say, yes, I definitively want peace. In what world would that be the case? I imagine if my own father, who is a man of law, if my remains were given to him in a box, and a bag, I would really solemnly doubt, and especially if the law was not on his side, that he would actually talk about peace. Okay.

So please stop beating around the person. It's not about Thomas. It is much bigger. If anything, some of the main, sorry, Pierce, I'm just going to finish this point. Some of the main resistance groups were actually, yes. I'm sorry, we have got two other guests who haven't spoken yet. So let me bring in Emily just to respond to what Rama was just saying, because I saw you rolling your eyes. I mean, yes, of course. I think a lot of what she was saying is projection.

That's what my baby sister does when I barred with talk, not when I'm talking about genocide. Exactly. You don't talk over each other. Exactly. What we have seen from Palestinians. You know, she's very quick to spout off names of people who are allegedly killed by Israel in various defensive air strikes. Remember, it wasn't Israel who started this operation. I love that she brings up the Great March of Return as something that was peaceful, when in fact there's video and photo evidence of Palestinians who were paid by Hamas. They even threatened bus drivers and told them that they are forced to drive Palestinians to that border,

knowing that their lives would be at risk if they tried to cross the border. And they were planting IEDs. They were throwing Molotov cocktails. They were acting in aggression against the IDF in order to have the IDF as offensively. But, you know, you want to talk about, you want to talk about Palestinians to their homes. You want to talk about, you had your chance to talk. You had your chance to talk. You want to talk about Palestinians who have been targeted by Hamas.

But why aren't you criticizing all of the Palestinians who have been persecuted by Hamas on the ground? I'm not lying. Do you know who this is? Do you know who this is? Islam Hijazi? She was shot 90 times. She was shot 90 times. She's a Palestinian, a Palestinian humanitarian aid worker who was shot 90 times.

All right. Nobody can hear either of you when you shout over each other. All right, time out, please. Time out. I need to, hang on. Rama. If everyone just stopped shouting, we'll get somewhere. Norman, you'd be waiting very patiently and quietly.

I was struck by something that you posted after the Hezbollah leader, Nasrallah, was assassinated. You said that his death left the world a more vacant place. You said, may the force be with you to the party of Saeed Nasrallah. And on the YouTube channel, India and Global Left, you called him a smart man and said his death had left the world a more empty place. I mean, people will find that surprising

about someone who many people categorized as the leader of a terror group. Well, the characterization of Syed Nasrallah, the late Sayyad Nisrallah, as an intelligent person, I would suspect that even the Israelis would concede that point.

Professor Chomsky, who I hold in the very highest regard and had very exacting standards of intelligence and mental capacity, standards which I never felt I rose to, even as I considered myself his, I studied under him. He was my mentor. He described Saeed Nasrallah, who he met personally. He described Saeed Nasrallah and Hugo Chavez. as the two smartest political leaders in the world.

And I think that's a fair characterization based on my own knowledge, which is limited because I don't read Arabic, but I did follow his speeches closely. As to the second comment of mine, you know, you can't pick and choose what movements you embrace in the sense that options can be very narrow. So let's take the case of World War II. There is no question that the Stalin regime was very brutal

and that many innocents in the millions perished under Stalin's rule. Nonetheless, your Prime Minister Churchill, my president at the time, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, embraced Stalin and everybody in the so-called free and democratic world wished the best good fortune to the Red Army as it stood the ground against the Nazis. As you know, up until 1944, 90% of the Nazi troops were on the eastern border. And as you know, about 300,000 Americans died during World War II, about 400,000 Brits died during World War II, and about 30 million Russians died during World War II. So by a fantastical difference, it was the Russian Red Army under the leadership of Stalin,

who was a brutal leader, that defeated the Nazis. In Europe, which you're familiar with all the underground resistance to the Nazis in the occupied countries. Without exception, those resistances were led by the communists. The communists were very brutal, but they led the resistance to the Nazis. In the same way, the Hezbollah is a very brutal. is now leading, even though it's been significantly degraded in its military capacities, it's leading the resistance to what is a genocidal regime. In my opinion, peers, and of course, reasonable people can disagree.

But my memory goes back as far as the early 2000s, when all the liberals in the world adopted this program called R2P, responsibility to protect. And that meant that if the other institutions of the international system failed to protect people who were suffering a genocide, it was the responsibility. of states to protect where the international institutions failed. Hezbollah began its firing on northern Gaza, excuse me, northern Israel, when Israel embarked on a genocide in Gaza. And Hezbollah's position was

until the last day of science, Nasrallah's life, their position was reiterated over and over again. When there is a ceasefire in Gaza, when the genocide ends, we will stop firing rockets at northern Israel. They took as their own the responsibility to protect R2P. The people of the people of Gaza who were suffering a genocide. Okay, I need to bring in the others, Norman. What I would say on that is, for my memory, hang on, I'll bring you all in. I'm going to correct something.

My understanding, Colonel Kemp, was that Hezbollah fired the rockets before Israel did anything after October the 7th. They did it in solidarity with what Hamas had done, wedding themselves in that moment to one of the worst terror attacks of modern times. If that was my belief of what went down in those 24 hours, perhaps you can clarify that from your perspective. But also, you know, normal makes a good case for something that a Lebanese friend of mine told me today, which I was quite surprised about, which is that to many people in Lebanon, Hezbollah are seen to be resistance, are seen to be people fighting for freedom,

and they're not seen as terrorists. I mean, what do you feel about that? Do you feel that sometimes we in the West look at all these groups as terrorists, but they look at Israel as terrorists, and they look at themselves as resisting the terror? You're all right. Hizbalah, the terrorist organization, with its terrorist leader, thank goodness he's no longer with us now, Nazrella,

Norman Finkelstein's equivalent of Stalin, and there are definitely some similarities there. They began their aggression against Israel, before Israel really began effectively to fight back against in a defensive war, not a genocide, by any means. The idea that what Israel is doing in Gaza is a genocide is nothing but an obscenity, and how Professor Finkelstein can utter those words is beyond me. But the reality is that Hispala is a proxy of Iran. It doesn't exist in its own right.

It was created by Iran. It's funded by Iran. It's armed by Iran. It's directed by Iran. and it exists as part of a ring of steel of Iranian proxies around Israel with the intention to destroy Israel. This is nothing to do with protecting anybody. It's all about trying to annihilate Israel,

which is Iran's one of Iran's agendas. And let's not forget as well that most Arab countries in the region, including Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the U.E., and others, are very firmly on the side of Israel, because they recognize they want Israel to defeat Hisbalah. They want Israel to speak on behalf of Arab countries. Because they recognize that Iran is as bigger threat to them as it is to Israel, perhaps even a bigger threat.

It's not about Iran. The idea that Iran can gain nuclear weapons is absolutely abhorred to most of the Arab countries. And you just have to look at the way that Iran is motivating its proxy, the Houthis, in Yemen, to attack international shipping. These people, these Iranian proxies are the enemies of not just Israel, but the Middle East and the West. and Iran's primary objective is to gain supremacy over Sunni Islam in the Middle East. Okay, well, hang on, hang on.

And then to eject the US-Marish and destroy Israel. Let me bring in Rama, because you say that's not the case. But Rama, before you respond, it is... I'm so sorry, this is not the case. I'm so sorry, this is not the case. I'm about to say something to you. Israel is now holding the Philadelphia. Okay, hang on.

I just want to say that... For example, he's stating now... It is surely indisputable that Iran is... funding and resourcing Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis with a combined ideology of trying to get rid of Israel. I mean, surely that's indisputable, isn't it? Listen, Pierce, this is the thing, and this is the real issue.

When you take something out of context, you are negating the fact that there has been resistance long before Hezbollah, long before Hamas. Actually, when you talk about some of the founders of the PLO, they were Christian communist. The point is, you occupy, you will gain resistance. It is a narrative that is not ours when you assume that a people should be occupied

and do nothing about it. You have, for example, a mother who gave birth in Al-Quds triplets, and she didn't get the permit. So Israel sent her back to Gaza. So she had to leave these triplets. When you go talk to this mother of three, what do you expect her to tell you? And these incidents have been happening long before Hamas and Hezbollah.

And that is the point. It is a PR strategy of theirs that they regurgitate in mainstream media to tell you it's Iran or to tell you that it's militant. But what you are negating is that the whole world... Okay, I want to... Listen, I'm sorry, Pierce, just let me finish my point. Finish your point. Let me finish this one, please.

There is a CIA report, okay, I will. There is a CIA report, for example, that was founded, and it states the aggressively ideological nature of Zionism, which emphasizes that all Jews belong to Israel and must return to Israel, has had its drawbacks in enlisting support for intelligence operations, since there is a considerable opposition to Zionism among Jews from around the world. Aware of this fact, Israeli intelligence representatives usually operate discreetly within Jewish communities

and are under instructions to handle their missions with utmost tact to avoid embarrassment to Israel. Obviously, this is not the same tact because Israel is extremely embarrassed at this point. And you are negating the fact that Tim Walts in a vice presidential debate stated the expansion of Israel and his proxies is an absolute fundamental necessity for the United States. Okay. Do you expect a people to have their land being. taken and do nothing. Okay, Emily, Emily, look, in the same way that when I have these debates, when I hear

Israelis say, or pro-Israeli people say that what else was Israel supposed to do but defend itself, I have a lot of sympathy for that. The scale of how they've gone about it, I have some issues with, but the principle of defending yourself against that kind of attack, I get it. But I also understand Rama's wider point, which is where there is a clear occupation and depression of a people, as it clearly has been, whatever you want to call it,

Israel has been controlling the lives of people in Gaza for a long period of time, and the general quality of life of people in Gaza is appalling, particularly by comparison to people across the border in Israel. And I think they should be entitled to the exact same human rights and hopes and aspirations for the same quality of life

as their neighbours. But at the moment, Netanyahu is showing zero sign of wanting that to happen. He just talks constantly about destroying Hamas, destroying Hezbollah, destroying Iran, destroying everybody. But ultimately, what's the end game? What happens then?

And how do you not just fuel the ideology that created all this trouble? Well, I mean, there's a few things I want to address, and obviously I appreciate that you pointed out the fact that Hezbollah did attack Israel before Israel had ever responded. There's a lot of activity from the anti-Israel movements. even, they were protesting against Israel before Israel had responded.

By the end of October 7th in the United States, there were anti-Israel protests. So there's something inherently wrong here because Israel hadn't even responded, so it's not actually about that. It's about supporting terrorism. Now, when it comes to the responsibility to protect, we have to remember that Hezbollah is not a state actor. Hezbollah is a terror proxy of the Islamic Republic of Iran. It is occupying and colonizing parts of the Middle East, including some parts of Syria,

even, and of course we have other terror proxies in Yemen, in Iraq, in all kinds of other places that are being orchestrated by the Islamic Republic of Iran. And, you know, to Rama's point about occupation, you know, there are occupations, military occupations, many of which are legal, some of which are illegal, all over the world. And we don't see the people who are occupied carrying out the same savage acts of barbarism that we saw a year ago today. We don't see families being slaughtered, women being raped, tied to trees and raped and sexually... the same way that we saw Hamas do. Same way that we saw Hamas do in Gaza.

And I'm sorry, but what part of Yemen is Israel occupying? Again, this is an orchestrated campaign by the Islamic Republic of Iran. Just because the population is occupied under international law does not give them the right to kill civilians, especially civilians in an indisputed area such as the Gaza border communities. How dare you? How dare you stop me from killing your child? These are people who support peace with the Palestinians. Are you asking people who wanted two-state solution?

Are you actually saying? They got thousands of casualties. They got thousands of terrorists, including guns, civilians. Okay, again, time out because we can't hear you. We can't hear either of you because you're both shouting. Let me bring in Norman again, waiting patiently as you two were shouting at each other. Norman, what happens here now? putting aside all the how do we get here arguments which we've had many times what is going to happen

here i mean how you you're a scholar of this of this region for many decades how concerned are you now that we might be entering a really potentially uncontrollable phase of this conflict which could lead to a much wider war first of all i made clear my own opinion several months ago and i think even on your program, but I could be mistaken there. When I was asked, what do you expect for the day after? I said already several months ago when people were contemplating the day after, I said, I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I believe we're closer to the beginning than to the end.

So it was not entirely unpredictable that it would last a year and it may go on for a considerably greater period of time. Secondly, I already said in an article I wrote in April entitled Cassandra and Samson, or Samson and Cassandra. Cassandra being the mythical figure who was always the bearer of bad news, and Samson is the fellow who brought down the temple in order to avert his own, or to bring others along with him when his time was up. I said there were real dangers that we were heading towards nuclear conflagration,

and those dangers loom as we speak right now, especially with the intention of Israel or the desire of Israel to go after Iran. It's very amusing to listen to Neftali Bennett speak. This was the same Israeli government who exhorted and encouraged the United States to go to Iraq. And you might recall, just as Neftali Bennett prophesizes that the Iranian people will welcome the U.S. force, You will recall on the eve of the attack on Iraq, it was said that the Americans would be greeted with flowers and chocolate. That was the famous image. Well, that didn't quite turn out.

When did Nathalevna said the United States that Iranian people would welcome the United States? The Iranian people do want regime change. That's been clear, and quite frankly, their population is quite different than the Iranian population. Ms. Schrader, Ms. Schrader, I would appreciate it. I would appreciate it if you let me... Let Norma finish his point. Sure, go ahead. I'm curious.

Go ahead, Norman. Go ahead. So, thank you very much, Ms. Schrader. You seem to be in charge of everything. You don't only want to control the Middle East. You want to control the airwaves in the entire world. In any event, I do believe that there are serious. dangers now, and I think we should heed the lessons of history about invading large countries which don't want a foreign occupation. Now, having said that, you ask where we're headed,

I think we have to have clarity first on where we've come from. Now, I've followed Mr. Kemp for many years. He's kind of an official Israeli cheerleader who the Israelis bring out every time they carry out a high-tech killing spree in Gaza. Mr. Kemp is rolled out. I don't know if he's a true believer. Maybe he's one of those Zionist fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists. Maybe he's being paid by Israel. I don't know. But what I do know is you can never attach any truth value to anything Mr. Kemp has to say. I wrote a book on Gaza, and if you turn to the index, you'll see there are many entries on the limitless lies of Richard Kemp. So let's turn to what he said now. He said he's shocked that I would describe

what's going on in Gaza as a genocide. with the exception of two of the 17 judges in the International Court of Justice, 15 of the 17 judges, they themselves were persuaded that Israel was plausibly committing a genocide in Gaza. So it's not just this weird, aberrant Professor Finkelstein. It's the top judicial body in the world. Now, I would like to ask Mr. Kemp the following question. He says it's not a genocide that's occurring in Gaza. So here is a perplexity to me. Why is it that proportionately more medics have been killed in Gaza than in any other war zone in the world?

Why is it that more journalists have been killed in Gaza than in any other war zone in the world? Why is it that more UN workers have been killed in Gaza than anywhere else, any other war zone in the world? Why is it that yesterday, 45 doctors who served in Gaza this past year? 45 doctors published a letter in which they said that every day in the hospitals, Every day in the hospitals, they had to deal with children who were shot in the head or in the chest. It wasn't shrapnel. It wasn't indiscriminate bombing. It was children who were targeted in the head and the chest. Why is that, Mr. Kemp, Israel's favorite cheerleader with his pom-poms? Okay.

Why is it, Mr. Kemp? I'd like to. Why is it Mr. Kemp? I think we should let Colonel Kemp respond now. Allow me just to finish. Why is it Mr. Kemp? Can I ask one question? I wouldn't start talking.

I want to come. Let Colonel Kemp respond. There's a lot of allegations. Allow me to finish. Allow me to finish. Okay. Why is it, Mr. Kemp, the Israeli snipers shot at two women in a church convent when all the details.

of their presence had been sent to Israeli military officials. Why did Israel fire two tank shells in the convent complex at a building housing, 54 children with disabilities? Does that sound to you like a war, Mr. Kemp? Or does it sound to you like a genocide? Norman, I want to let Colonel Kemp respond. You made a number of allegations against him. Colonel Kemp, your chance to respond.

Here is going to add. No, no, Rama, I want Colonel Kemp to be able to respond. So let him respond. Colonel Kemp. I wouldn't accuse Professor Finkelstein of lying as he accused me of lying, but he's obviously badly mistaken about the decision or the pronouncement of the International Court of Justice who did not say, no justice on that court said that Israel's plausibly committing a genocide. And that's been clarified by the former...

And it's a flat-out lie. And it was said that you want to control the airways now, Mr. Finkelstein. It was said that South Africa had a plausible case, was in a plausible position to bring a case of genocide, not that there was a plausible genocide. That's a flat-out lie. Dismissed by the International Court of Justice. And the second thing is all the examples that Mr. Finkelstein gave, Jesse reeled off just now, I can't answer every single one of those allegations, but let's assume they all did happen, as he said.

Let's assume that. I don't believe they did, but let's assume it. None of that is genocide. What is genocide? There's IDF soldiers on TikTok showcasing their war crimes, audaciously. Describes its mission as being genocide against both the Israelis, and the Jewish people as a whole.

Their actions on the 7th of October confirmed their intent to commit genocide. The words of their leaders repeatedly wanting to do more and more 7th of octobers reaffirms that policy. It is Hamas that is a genocidal terrorist organization. Israel is a Western liberal democracy defending its own people

according to international law. They've taken the greatest possible steps to provide humanitarian aid into Gaza. They've taken a... the greatest possible steps, greater than any other army in history, to minimize the deaths of innocent civilians, while Hamas have been doing all they can to maximize the death of their own civilians, to bring the kind of international pressure we're seeing from the ICC and the ICJ.

Let me, all right, Rama, I'll give you a quick chance to respond, and then Emily can respond to you, and then we're done. So, Rama, quick response. Thank you, Pierce. Listen, I was at the Ruffa border, starting three A.S. They wait until you sleep. Can you imagine the torture? They started carpet bombing, one bomb after the next.

Lucky for you, sir, I was there. And what happens is there are Palestinian families on either side getting their reports from families who are being eradicated. Over 900 families. I don't know 900 families. So when you have this and you have the audacious, talent to state what you're stating, the way you are stating, I am flabbergasted and I feel more sorry for you than the footage of a young girl drawing her last breath from the rubble.

You have IDF, one second, you have IDF soldiers dawning. So one second, Hezbollah is giving these IDF soldiers the lingerie of Palestinian women who are dead or displaced or their toys that they are audaciously playing with and sharing on their TikTok as they're bombing. What about the boat? There is a boat that they organize so that civilians can watch the destruction in Gaza, as if they're watching

the fireworks of 4th of July. It was Hezbollah in the stones of Belba in Lebanon. Okay, but Rama... Is Hamas in the car of a child who shot up 355 times? Okay, but Rama, did you feel as angry and incensed by Hamas using GoPro cameras to recall the appalling atrocities

they were committing in real time on October the 7th. That's the thing, Pierce. I don't, that's what I'm trying to state, Pierce. I don't matter. Whether I, what Rahma thinks of that does not matter. Was it, one second, Pierce. One second. Was it, was it inevitable?

That's what I'm saying. You cannot keep trying to dictate the narrative in such a way that we are watching the atrocities that we are watching my question. I will not answer your questions. Can I tell you why? Then that's fine. No, you don't have to tell me why. It's fine.

Because it takes things out of context. Okay. Actually, it's a very straightforward. It's a very straightforward comparison. And here's my problem. Which it hasn't. Here's my problem with people. I understand.

Because that's... I understand. Pierce, let me just... Pierce, I'm going to finalize in one sentence. Pierce, let me finalize in one sentence. That's the propaganda machine of having the seventh... of October, we have

this Arabic saying, Tukrari al-Illam Shatur, to keep regurgitating, which then negates what happened in Dir-Jin massacre, what happened in Kedurah, what happened in Kibya, what happened to all these people, and you want to find peace, it is

by listening to the other. That's the end of your one sentence, okay? My point to you is simply that, you know, if you feel that angry about what Israel's doing in showing off some of the atrocities they've been committing, you should feel the same way about Hamas, but you refuse to answer that. Emily, final word to you.

But this is... No, no, Rama, that's it. Emily. What was inevitably going to happen? Rama, stop talking, please. It's Emily's chance to just finish off. The fact that we've received it was released today, 12,400 rockets from Hasbila in the last year makes it pretty clear.

It isn't Israel who initiated this conflict. It isn't Israel who initiated anything on October 7th. We hadn't even responded when we started getting attacked on multiple fronts. We're now fighting on seven fronts. None of those are things that were initiated by us. And it's also very clear that this is not just about land. It's not just about territory. It's not even about a Palestinian state. That is why we see right now in Tehran,

there is a banner that says the state of Israel needs to be eliminated from the face of the earth. They even wrote it in Hebrew. In the heart of Tehran, that is what the regime put up. It's very clear what their agenda is. And that is what they have acted on with the hundreds of millions of dollars that they have funded these terrorist organizations with, which, by the way, our heart affirming Arab Muslims, majority Arab Muslims throughout the Middle East, including Syrians, Lebanese, many of whom are very much against Hezbollah, who feel that there is an occupation of the Islamic Republic throughout the Arab Muslim world, as well as it, because I actually speak to them on a regular basis as a journalist. I was speaking to them earlier today,

and many of them told me, please, when you go on, speak about the fact, speak about the fact that the Lebanese are being occupied by Hezbollah, and we don't want Hezbollah. UNIFIL has been in place for how long? They've received $2.5 billion only from the United States since 2006 alone. What have they accomplished? They haven't kept the... You don't want your resistance.

You stop occupation. It's that simple. They withdraw to the other side of the Latani. They haven't disarmed Hezbollah. They haven't demilitarized Hezbollah. And so you can't be upset when Israel is forced to act because we have 60, 70,000 families who have been out of their homes since October 8th.

As a result of... Of course they killed 2,000 people in this panel. I've got to leave it there. Thank you. Listen, I understand everyone has strong... I understand there are strong opinions on all sides. I really appreciate the whole panel coming together. And I thank you for your time. And these are worrying times.

I understand that. Passions are running high. But thank you for debating it together. I appreciate it.