Piers Morgan Uncensored - “OFF From The BEGINNING!” Charlie Kirk Shooting Conspiracies With Piers Morgan

Episode Date: October 1, 2025

Tens of millions of people saw the horrific footage of Charlie Kirk’s shooting, whether they wanted to or not - a symptom of a culture in which everything is livestreamed and every moment analyzed, debated and often manipulated by people who no longer trust anything. As such, conspiracy theories are circulating about Kirk’s death, citing so-called evidence that the official story is incomplete, with the likes of Joe Rogan and Candace Owens leading the speculation. Piers Morgan takes a look at these so-called 'Kirkspiracies' in detail with former US Navy Seal Rob O’Neill, forensics scholar and host of the ‘Body Bags’ podcast, Joseph Scott Morgan and former CIA operative and host of The President’s Daily Brief, Mike Baker. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Birch Gold: Visit https://birchgold.com/piers to get your free info kit on gold. OneSkin: Get 15% off OneSkin with the code PIERS at https://www.oneskin.co/ #oneskinpod Oxford Natural: To watch their full stories, scan the QR code on your screen or visit https://oxfordnatural.com/piers/ to get 70% off your first order when you use code PIERS. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

That's an easy shot. 200 yards as a sniper, which I am, you pick which nostril you want and I'll put it in it. For me, I mean, it was off it right from the beginning for me. Why did his shirt move the way it did? It was, well, he was obviously wearing body armor and it was deflection. No. Why were people being interviewed saying, yeah, they came from my left to right, from his right to left? Official story sounds like it needs to be investigated, but now, you know, the whole crime scene's gone.

They paved over it. Nothing to see here. This is some kind of grand conspiracy. You would have to get a surgeon on board that had no idea this was coming, and you would have to get the chief medical examiner for the state of Utah to agree to this. This is a murder investigation. This is a homicide. It's a cesspool.

It is a sewer system. And that's where this young individual disappeared into. If you were dismantling this rifle, how long would it take you to do? It's going to take a solid five minutes, I would guess. That immediately says to me, well, that's a bit odd. It is a bit odd, right? Tens of millions of people saw the horrific video of Charlie Kirk's assassination,

whether they wanted to or not. It's a symptom of a culture in which everything is live-streamed, and every moment is analyzed, debated, and often manipulated by people who no longer trust anything. If you spent any time at all online in the past week, you'll have encountered many conspiracy theories about Kirk's death and so-called evidence that the official story is incomplete.

Everyone from Joe Rogan to Candice Owens is speculated with varying degrees of intensity, that there's more to this and meets the eye. I don't necessarily think they know what's going on yet. There's a lot of weird shit going on with this. I know. First of all, there was that one guy who was the decoy. The family says that the photo of the young man

that is coming up the stairs, which was shared, that blurry image, is definitively not Tyler Robinson. And let me just say, I never thought it looked like him. Neither did you. All of this is probably quite hard on Kirk's family and friends, we've learned the hard way about dismissing all theories out of hand or simply telling people they're not allowed to talk about things we don't like. So we can look at these so-called Kirkspiracies in a bit of detail

and ask whether there is actually anything to them. Joining me now is a former US Navy SEAL, Robert Neal, Joseph Scott Morgan, the co-host of the Body Bags podcast, and a scholar of Applied Forensics at Jacksonville State. And the former CIA agent, Mike Baker, host of the President's Daily Brief. Welcome to all of you. Rob, welcome back to our sensitive. It's always great to have you.

Just from a purely technical point of view, there's been a lot of speculation that a young, non-military trained, it appears, 22-year-old man could be two football fields, 175 yards away from Charlie Kirk, and yet kill him apparently so skillfully with one bullet through his neck. Just from a technical point of view,

how difficult is that shot to make? Good to be with you, Pearce. Thanks for having me. That's an easy shot. Even for someone, I mean, they throw the word sniper around almost as much as they throw the word hero around way too often. Anyone with a hunting rifle, a 30 out six like that, that's an easy shot. 200 yards as a sniper, which I am, you pick which nostril you want and I'll put it in it. So that's easy. The issues just for me, I mean, it was off it right from the beginning for me.

from do we not guard rooftops anymore? There's been assassinations, assassination attempts all over the world. Why aren't we looking at rooftops? And then when I was sent the video at the same message where they said Charlie Kirk was just shot. When I watched that horrific video, he was obviously dead before he hit the ground.

But the questions immediately started to come to me. That was not an entry ruin that we saw. We saw an exit wound. So where'd that bullet come from? You don't bleed light. And I've shot guys closer than the camera was. and an entry wound doesn't look like that, an exit wound does. Why did his shirt move the way it did?

When I've shot people, their shirts didn't move like that. And then the initial reaction was, well, he was obviously wearing body armor and it was deflection. One, no, he wasn't wearing body armor. And two, it doesn't deflect like that off of body armor. Why was his shirt moving from right to left? Why were people being interviewed saying, yeah, they came from my left to right, from his right to left, immediately shut down? And then did they tear the crime scene down immediately?

Just right off the bat from seeing it knowing he was dead saying a lot of this is bad, not even getting into the soliloquy of text messages that 22-year-olds don't send their trans lover. So immediately it's just the official story sounds like it needs to be investigated. But now, you know, the whole crime scene is gone. They paved over it. Nothing to see here. It's really interesting that you think that, given your extraordinary experience. Obviously, you're the man who shot and killed Osama bin Laden. You're a Navy SEAL for 15 years. He's served in. some of their most high-profile missions. So you think there may well be some substance

to some of these conspiracy theories? I'm just saying with, especially in my experience with the bin Laden raid, if you don't see it happen, people are going to say it didn't happen. So unfortunately, we're at a state of affairs where if I'm not there, I'm not going to say it did or didn't happen. I'm just saying what jumps out of me. With AI right now, with everything that can be made up,

you know, if you don't see it firsthand, you don't know what happened. Videos can be made. It just immediately, it seemed off to me. Plus, as a sniper or a hunter, but you don't take a next shot. You take a next shot because you missed. Let me bring in Joseph Scott Morgan.

You're a forensics scholar. What do you think of what you just heard there from Robert Neal? Yeah, I think it's a fine assessment. One of the problems is, is that at this point in time, from a medical legal perspective, we don't have any data to go on. All we have are the speculative things

that are floating about the internet. Or, you know, by the way, not doing anybody any. good here. We have a surgeon who was hands on there that treated Charlie and he even made reference, I believe, to he said that Charlie was a Superman man of steel. In other words, what he's saying the round passed through and it didn't strike anybody else that the round he's implying at least did in fact embed itself in his body. Now what the status of that round is, I don't know. We don't have an autopsy report yet either, which is a huge problem.

If you want to speculate on wound tracks and these sorts of things, and there are people out there that are actually saying that there was not an autopsy performed, even though it is required by Utah state law, the state medical examiner, is put into that position where they have to do the autopsy. So if this is some kind of grand conspiracy, you would have to get a surgeon on board that had no idea this was coming, and you would have to get the chief medical examiner for the state of, Utah to agree to this, which seems very fanciful at the very least.

The autopsy thing is totally baffling. Why would there not have been one? Yeah, it's, first off, let's stop using the word assassination. That's one of the problems we ran into with Kennedy. From a death investigator's perspective, a forensic guy's perspective, this is a murder investigation. This is a homicide, all right? You politicize it when you say assassination.

Let the Utah State Police and let the medical examiner do their job in this particular case. Let them work this case as it is as a homicide and draw upon the physical evidence. And the reason we don't have these documents right now is this kid's going to be prosecuted. They're going to take him into court and they're going to prosecute him and they're going to seek the death penalty. So don't be shocked if we don't see an autopsy report for some time. And don't be shocked at the Utah State Medical Examiner keeps their mouths shut in here because there have been other cases

where people have run their mouths in advance and it winds up getting in far more trouble. But does your gut tell you, Joseph, that this is most likely to have been the shooter we saw on the roof, who is this 22-year-old who's obviously facing the charges of the death penalty? Yeah, yeah.

You know, at this point, I have no other reason to believe that it was someone else, you know, some phantom that may have snuck up behind them that had popped off some kind of round from some other type of weapon platform that would have been in his rear. It just seems, it seems to me. And look, I agree with Rob,

relative to the round, this is a very easy shot. I'm older than most of you guys. I had to qualify with iron sights at 300 yards in the army. I'm not a very good shot, but way back when dinosaurs roam the earth, that's even an easy shot with a steel site. So, yeah, I'm not, you know, with a telescopic site from that range, yeah, I think it'd be a walk in the park.

Let me bring in Mike Baker. I mean, Mike, whenever there's a high-profile shooting like this, there's always raging conspiracy theories, and that's been massively exacerbated by social media. And by a lot of, you know, people probably in the world of debating these things, sometimes acting in deliberate bad faith, whether they're just running with a conspiracy theory because it's getting loads of views and making money and so on. And I'm not going to be a hypocrite.

We're running a debate here about the conspiracy theories to try and get to some reality, but I certainly don't want to promote stuff if it's outlandish. With all your experience as a former CIA agent, what is your overview of the Charlie Kirk killing? Yeah, look, things, most of the time, things are as pretty much as simple as they seem. And then, and the other truism here is social media and the internet, I don't want to sound like a Luddite, but pretty much destroys everything it touches. So the social media conspiracy theory started literally within a couple of minutes of people becoming aware that Charlie had been shot.

You know, everything from this is a professional hit. And the unwarranted confidence of people on the Internet and in social media to push forward their ideas is astounding. One minute they're a Russian criminologist. One minute, they're a pandemic expert. You know, the next minute, they're an expert on assassinations. And if you combine that nature of human, you know, tendency, along with AI and deep fakes, it's no wonder that, you know, you disappear into social media and it's accessible. it is a sewer system. And that's where this young individual, you know, disappeared into.

So the idea, you know, I'm not, again, you always have to be careful. Every investigation has to be built on facts, right, on evidence, on information. And our tendency, because we want an immediate answer because we've all been trained for that and everybody's got ADHD is they don't have the patience. And as was just pointed out, I agree with everything that was just said, you got to get. give these investigations time to sort themselves out. But that's not what people want. They want an immediate answer. And if you don't fill that void, they're just going to make crap up.

Everything that you've read, though, from more authoritative sources, is there anything ringing alarm bells? I mean, people have been talking about why did he leave the weapon wrapped in a towel, you know, a lot of coverage about him running across the rooftop. Would he be able to dissemble the rifle as fast as he apparently did, throwing it down his pants and jumping off the roof? and so on. Is there anything about any of this, which to you rings alarm bells or not?

No, no. I mean, again, that's, you know, it's a simplistic answer, and yes, the investigation's still ongoing. Never say never, right? You never, you know, there's always going to be something that could surprise you, but look, this guy obviously looked at Butler as an example. Rob said it himself, at what point do we do we look around? You could have scattered that perimeter and without really any formal training and said, I think I see a few problems here. And that's, I would look at this from more of an operational perspective as how do you prevent the next one. How could you have prevented this?

Well, look, it's hindsight and that's a terrible thing to go on. But at the same time, they should have locked this down a long time ago. Charlie was getting death threats. He talked about him. He shouldn't have been doing events out in the open. You'd put them inside where you can, you know, It's locked down the perimeter. You can screen people. You put up metal detectors. You just provide a more secure environment. But again, you know, I don't want to armchair quarterback this thing.

But that's where I typically go. I don't disappear down. Well, I think, right. I mean, let me bring Rob back in because you raised a really interesting question, Rob, which is, you know, Donald Trump was nearly assassinated by a young guy around the same age as this shooter, on a roof about the same distance from somebody speaking in public. Charlie Kirk was an extremely high-profile conservative, you know, representative of the conservative movement.

You know, going into big open-air areas with roofs everywhere, it does seem quite staggering to me. And it was staggering to me when the Trump one happened, that someone like that could get that close on a flat roof with a clean shot at the President of the United States. And then even more extraordinary, eight weeks later, somebody hidden a bush at a golf course and nearly killed him there.

Again, I'm not a big conspiracy theory person as a rule of thumb because most of them turn out to be nonsense. But you haven't got to be conspiracy theories to think what is going on here? Yeah, I agree with you. I wasn't with the security team and I don't want to pass judgment on their decisions

that were made, but it's like it almost seemed like in the aftermath too, everyone's shifting the blame where we had personal security where there should have been local cops. Well, the campus security had this. It's like, look, man, give me five dudes, tier one guys, we'll lock it down. And the first place we're checking is the rooftops.

Then we're checking the bushes. You're looking for little stuff, like perfect circles and square, perfect circles, perfect squares, perfect lines don't exist in nature. So you're looking for scopes. You're looking for lines of a barrel, stuff like that. It should be locked down. And then, I mean, just even, you know, even going back, speaking of conspiracies, going back to 9-11 with a plane hitting the Pentagon, we have one camera on the most secure area in the world.

Why is it now in 2025, we got grainy footage of a dude who might not be the dude? Where's, I mean, you got people with this technology all over the place. Everyone's got a camera in their hand. Why is it we get one grainy footage of a dude that looks like someone's son? It just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, you go back to, you know, was Jack Ruby just a great American because he killed Lee, Harvey Oswald while he was saying he's a patsy or was he a patsy? Who's involved in why?

And it's, again, with, you know, and just because of I'm talking here next to my phone, the algorithms listening to me, it's going to start shifting all this conspiracy stuff so I can look at it when I'm scrolling. through my phone. So it's very important to realize what's real and isn't real. But it seems to me, like, nobody's really been fired or gotten a lot of trouble for stuff that's happening. I mean, look at the secret service detail. Look at the cops that were in that town. What have the counter-sniper's done? Is there any accountability other than the people who get shot? I mean, at some point, there's got to be truth-telling and accountability. I'm seeing none of that

except, you know, conspiracy series and everyone, myself included, is an online lawyer that has all the answers. Let me get straight to the point. Gold is up by around 40% this year. That's not speculation, that's reality. And as some of your savings aren't diversified into gold, you're missing the boat. Here's the facts. Inflation is still too high. The US dollar is still too weak. And the government's debt is insurmountable. That's why central banks are flocking to gold and driving prices to record highs. It's not too late to get involved. Birch Gold Group will help you convert an existing IRA or a 401k into a tax sheltered. IRA in gold. You don't pay a dime out of pocket. Just text peers, P-I-E-R-S, to

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When we look at stories like this, one of the other aspects is that a lot of people come out, particularly on the left, and my views about this issue were well known. I'm not going to legislate those again, mainly because I'm not American. But I think on this one, many people say, well, obviously if there was more gun restrictions,

gun control, these young unhinged people wouldn't get their hands on weaponry. But it seemed here he just took his grandfather's old rifle. I'm not sure there's any new gun control law you could bring in that could stop that happening. I mean, what do you think of that part of this debate? No, no, there's not. What are you going to do?

Go to every house and get Papal's old hunting gun, you know, because that's what this comes down to. We're talking about a Mouser 98 bolt action, 30-out-6 rifle. Look, I live in the South. I can tell you the lion's share of people have at least a bolt action in their house, all right, and a shotgun. And, you know, what are you going to do? Go door to door and seize all of the weapons.

That ain't happening. I can tell you that. So the idea that this can be some way interdicted, I think, is quite, it's an interesting consideration. But on the other hand, we've got an entire generation that's out there that has little or no help for mental health issues. And I think a lot of this goes back to that. you know, you begin to think about the road this guy was on, and I don't, you know, I don't personally know him, but I do know that he's disturbed enough, at least at this point, it appears, that he's willing to take out Charlie Kirk in front of hundreds of other people. And by the way, just if you just track that round from where he fired from, if he was off just a couple of inches, that round would have been powerful enough to have passed through.

maybe a couple of people in route. He had a very small window that he was aiming through. If you look at the top of that tarp and then the top of the heads below, that guy had to get that shot off through there. If he had miscalculated in any way, it could have killed other people. So you've got somebody that certainly is not risk-averse here. And the big question is, why would that be? Why would this be normalized behavior?

Because I've got to tell you, it kind of seems like it is sometimes. Yeah, I don't disagree. One of the big sort of conspiracy theory is raging. Joe Rogan was particularly skeptical about this one, was the role of a guy called George Zinn, somebody who acted irrationally erratically. The scene was initially arrested. This isn't to what Joe said.

This guy was at 9-11. He was at the Boston bombing. He called in a fake bomb at another place. And then he did this at this thing. So somehow, know that this guy has the state of mind that the moment someone gets shot, he yells out and says, I did it, I did it, and takes his pants down or something like that. I don't know exactly what he did. Then, ready for this? He gets arrested for child porn right away. Right after this happened?

Oh, right away. He's in jail for child porn. Why is that? Well, now you can't interview him. So we looked into this. On the bomb threat history, the Associated Press did report on April the 23rd, 2013 that this guy, George Zinn, made a bomb threat at the Utah Marathon shortly after the Boston Marathon, but as though actual evidence he was also at the Boston Marathon. On the 9-11 suggestion, there's no credible evidence supporting claims that Zinn was present of that either. A lot of his associations seem to have been promoted from pretty crazy accounts on X, not verified reporting. The child pornography arrest did have. happen. So again, there's a lot of stuff flying around here, and no one's really sure what to

believe. It was a weird moment because I was watching it all the time. And this guy, George, said, he's quite well known to people. He's quite notorious. The fact he was there at all just looked very odd. But he seems to have been just a complete red herring. He's like, he's nothing to do with this. Yeah. Yeah. That goes back to what we talked about before, right? You've got to build, whether you're an individual who's trying to assess the credibility of something you're reading online, whether you're involved in an investigation. You've got to build these things on firm ground, right? And again, if you hear something, it gets repeated. Someone clicks on it, they send it to their friends. Next thing, you know, you got people saying, yeah, this guy is the

zealig of disasters. He's been showing up at every crisis and disaster, you know, for 20 years. and none of it's built on actual information, actual credible proven information. The only way, look, I go on about this all the time, but the only line of defense to stop some of the nonsense that's out there is the individual. The individual person has to learn how to be somewhat cynical and curious and to take the time,

which is difficult because everybody's busy, take the time to look into the credit. of the crap they're reading before they just send it along or repeat it to somebody else. You've got to do this. I will go back to a couple of things that we just said, if I may. This is a mental health crisis. It's not a gun control crisis. So I agree 100%.

Our failure in this country is dealing with mental health issues. And that's basically at the bottom of all of these recent incidents that we've been seeing. The other thing is this kid wasn't taking. a neck shot. You read these things and go, oh, my God, that's just, that's a professional shot. This kid got lucky, and nobody wants to think that something this terrible or tragic can happen because his shot, you know, he was probably going center mass or he was going somewhere. He was not saying to himself, I'm going to shoot Charlie Kirk in the neck. And so if you think about that the terrible fortune of that happening, nobody wants to think that it's bad luck to create

something that causes this much sadness or emotion. They say, It's similar to Kennedy or some of these others where, you know, it lives on because people don't want to think that a world-shattering event could happen because some psycho picks up a gun and gets off a shot. You know, Rob, you touched on this earlier, but I think one of the more curious aspects of this, which I think needs a lot more answers, are the text messages between the shooter and his trans boyfriend,

girlfriend, whatever you want to call his trans partner. Because they just read like almost if you were putting stuff into AI of how to do text message exchange, it would come out like this, right? It didn't read to me very natural. What did you make of it? Yeah, I mean, I've got three adult kids that text me not every time I'd like them to, but they do and it never sounds like that. I can't remember the last time my 22-year-old used a comma.

my 18-year-old certainly never has. It just doesn't work that way. It's either AI or when I started reading it, other than no one's saying rifle, no one's saying my love over and over, my first thought was this is someone who doesn't speak English as their first language. They're translating it, but it's almost like when you, you know,

it's like sending a dude from Southie, from South Boston to Georgia and having them fit in. You just sound a little bit different. I can tell you from somewhere else. The text don't make any sense whatsoever. And the way that they're just put out there, this long, dramatic script.

Again, that's in a handful of stuff that just doesn't make sense to me anyway. I wasn't there. I need to keep reiterating that. I didn't like that. I don't like the number of tools that needs that you need to take apart 30 out six or how much time you need,

how many different tools. And then wrapping in the talent. Well, that's really interesting. So let me stop you there. So if you were doing that with all your training, you were one of the most elite guys in special fours. in American history, if you were dismantling this precise rifle, how long would it take you to do it?

A 30 out six? Well, it's going to take several minutes. I can't even remember the last, I grew up. My first rifle was a 30 out six in Montana. And I can't remember the last time I took it apart. I could take the bolt out, clean that off. But in order to break it down to the point where you can even walk with a limp, it's going to take a solid five minutes, I would guess, with different. I don't even think you use that type of a screwdriver that he had with his DNA conveniently all over. because you know everything you touch has your DNA on it. It's just taking it apart, putting it together, taking a shot cold bore, by the way,

where your scope wasn't on there, taking it back apart, putting in your pants, climbing down a fence, getting back into the woods, putting it together as you're on the run, wrapping it, it's howled and, you know, driving 200 miles away to type to my love, the 300 lines of text.

It's just, none of it makes sense to me. Again, I'm not conspiring with anybody, and I'm not saying it was something that's not. And like Mike was saying, it's usually the most obvious thing that happened is what happened. I wish it never happened, but so many things just don't add up to me. Yeah, I think it's perfectly reasonable, Joseph, for people to ask questions, right? I mean, you don't have to buy into any single conspiracy theory or say that it actually won't end up being exactly, like Mike said, exactly how we think it is, right?

And it might well be the case. But Charlie Kurt wasn't just any shooting victim. He was the leader of the young conservative Christian right movement in the United States. That carried with it a lot of fame, a lot of infamy, a lot of acclaim, a lot of people that loved him, people that hated him. There's a clear political element to all this which hasn't fully unraveled yet in terms of exactly how radicalized this shooter was. Did anybody else help him? We don't really know yet, right? there are lots of unanswered questions.

I have no problem in this kind of process, particularly with all the disinformation flying around, the obvious stuff that's nonsense, in actually just doing what Rob just did and go, you know what, this might all be completely how it went down. But for someone like Rob O'Neill, to say it would take him five minutes

to do what I think the police had said was done in like a minute or so, that immediately says to me, well, that's a bit odd. It is a bit odd, right? How did this young kid who hasn't been in the military wasn't a Navy SEAL, didn't kill Osama bin Laden. How has he managed to do all this with such apparent ease

and file one shot that carries out the purpose that he had, which was to murder Charlie Kirk from nearly 200 yards away? You know, he may have just got incredibly lucky, and he might be incredibly quick at dismantling and putting together his granddad's rifle. But it is all a bit odd. Yeah, it is. I think that one of the interesting,

aspects of this from an investigative perspective is going back in time and trying to understand if there is anything in his data that's going to indicate when he took notice, I don't know if this is possible, when he took notice that Charlie would be present on campus. Did he go there to that particular area and surveil that area? That's a very specific location. How did he get access to that roof without being seen and also carrying a long arm up there? Did he disassemble it prior to taking it up there? Did he reassemble it? If you look at that one image that's on the roof, you can see there's like evidence markers up there, and it appears to be, at least, you know, the roof is flat, it's covered with gravel.

You can see what it looks like the outline of an individual that is lying in a prone position. I don't know, maybe that's just convenience. Maybe that's my lying eyes. I have no idea, but when I see that, that's what I'm thinking. And there's going to be a lot of little points of evidentiary value along the way. Here's something else that we really haven't considered. unlike, you know, if you think about the Zepruder film all those years ago, you had one POV there. I can tell you this.

I know that there was, there were a lot of people out there filming this. We have yet to see all of that data from multiple perspectives all the way around 360 degrees from that specific point at that moment. You know, no one was expecting this, and as the old adage goes, you know, the camera never blinks when all of that is compiled as well, that's going to be another piece to this that we don't really have a view of at this point in time. You know, and there's any number of cases out there. We're just coming off the Coburger trial right now

that we paid attention to for a long time. You know, we had physical evidence relative to a weapon and blood and all that stuff. But one of the things that really hung this guy was all of the digital data that you can trace back to him and kind of his movements and all this stuff. I think that a lot of this information is going to be sourced from spectators. You've got everybody out, and that's the nature of things. You know, everybody's got their phone out, their videotaping or taping, recording. So I think that some of that data is going to come into play here as well.

Yeah, and Mike, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? If you think back to the shooter who tried to kill Donald Trump at that open air event, you know, we know so little about that person, so little. I mean, that could have been one of the most notorious moments in American history. And yet we still know so little. It seemed to be no like digital trail, which for a kid of that age seemed so early 20s. Really? There's nothing there that's been reported.

I mean, again, you know, it's just a bit odd, right? Why do we not know more about that guy? Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, right? You can stack all this up and what Rob said and all those questions. And you have to ask all these questions, right? And that's what investigators do that were involved in any case, because, again, you don't take anything off the table until the evidence shows otherwise. But you're right.

Look at the Las Vegas shooter at the music festival, right? What do we know about that cat? I mean, so it's not uncommon that oftentimes, you know, you think, well, this is the most earth-shattering thing I've seen, you know, today. And then two days later, you know, we're all raccoons chasing the next shiny eye. And so we forget. And then so, again, the law enforcement, particularly at the federal level, hasn't seemed to understand this point, that they need to be in this day and age with the way that

information flows and how people develop ideas and theories and all these. They need to be as transparent as possible, right? Some of these things you can't put out there. Like, like, as we just said, the cell phone data, right? we're going to know this kid was sitting up on that roof. That thing would have been pinging, right? So they'll have all that information, and they're using that for the case, right? So they're not releasing that.

You know, they've got other video footage they're not releasing because they're building this case and they want to make sure that it's airtight. But to the degree they can, you know, and again, they haven't learned this lesson over quite some time, is they need to be more transparent because the way that information moves from person to person and people develop ideas and they get distrustful of government, for these very reasons. There's an obligation on the part of federal law enforcement in particular to be more transparent, as transparent as possible.

Rob, finally, do you worry about Donald Trump's safety? Because I do. Because there was a very close assassination attempt where his ear got grazed and people killed behind him. Then the golf course fiasco, which was so close to him being killed. That guy was in that bush for 12 hours, one secret service agent happened to spot the barrels sticking out of a bush. Otherwise, Trump was up there in five minutes and would have been killed.

But I still see him appearing at a lot of quite big public things where the security around him immediately in that vicinity seems a little bit perfunctory. Given the climate we now operated and given what's happened before, do you worry about his security? I'm not worried about his security. I know the Secret Service is competent, as long as we keep people on the detail that are there for performance alone.

And by that, I mean people who are taller than the principal, this being the president of the United States, and people who have done it before. You don't need to pick up a bunch of people from a desk just so eventually they can get promoted. It needs to be competence alone. He's going to have threats out there. They, being the Secret Service, know exactly where he's going weeks in advance. They have a different, Advent, advanced trips. They're going there, talking to the locals, getting all the stuff.

Secure. Yeah, I don't worry about him right now. but they need to be smart about it. And the realization that so far, to include Charlie Kirk, they've run into amateurs who are on rooftops. When they run into a real sniper who's not trying to camouflage what's in front of him, but what's way behind him to make it almost look like it's two-dimensional

to someone looking for him in binoculars or a spotting scope, it could get deadly, but you need to keep your perimeter tight, you know, start in, work out, and then keep the perimeter to a certain extent. You don't need to give them unlimited fields of access in places that have access. You need to have people there. It's that simple.

This is really day one stuff that we're making a lot harder than it needs to be. Well, that's why I found the golf course one almost more shocking than the first one, actually, because this is where he played golf many Sundays. It was his local golf course in Florida. And the vantage point that the shooter chose was where the media used to go if they wanted to get a good, clean shot, ironically, of Trump playing golf with a camera. Right? So it was almost like, you know, doing stuff by numbers.

if you were trying to work out where somebody might try and kill him on his golf course, you would choose that very area of bushes. And yet that guy was allowed to be there for 12 hours. I still find that really shocking. Well, even when they're tracking him, it's almost like there was a movie, I think, clear and present danger where they're showing sniper training and they grabbed like a quarter pounder with cheese wrapper.

He had lunch here. They were doing that with his dude in Florida. He must have eaten here. And he's like, come on, guys. On what planet are you doing security? And the most obvious, spot. Put a dude there. Put a guy or a girl there. Whoever's working for the, and watch it. It's like, go to the principal spot. Where would I be? And if I was taking a shout at this person,

where would I go? It's not, I mean, we're really talking easy stuff here. For some reason, we like to make everything a lot more difficult. Yeah, I agree. Gentlemen, a fast-tending conversation. I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thank you, thank you. Today show is brought to you by Oxford Natural, makers of the optimum day and optimum night, all natural supplements. Thousands of Brits and Americans are already taking them with incredible results. Optimum day is designed to boost your energy and support weight loss throughout the day. Optimum night helps you relax and get deep, refreshing sleep. And don't just take their word for it. Here are just a few of their success stories. England football legend. Michael Owen lost 40 pounds.

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