Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: A Happy New Year?

Episode Date: January 3, 2023

Standing in for Piers, guest presenters Richard Tice and Isabel Oakeshott reflect on the UK as we begin a new year. RMT's former Assistant Secretary Steve Hedley has a fiery debate with Richard and Isabel about the ongoing strikes. Lawyer Paula Rhone-Adrien discusses Prince Harry's latest interview ahead of his biography's release, called 'Spare'. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight, Tom Piers Morgan, uncensored, with me, Richard Tice and Isabel Oakeshot. Yes, it's 2023. But is it really a happy new year after all? Britain's faced five days of absolute misery in the most disruptive rail strikes we've seen for ages. We'll go toe to toe with a former rail union boss, as there are warnings that strikes could go off for many, many months. And it's not just the trains that are in chaos. The NHS is in crisis, with the reports that have many. as 500 people a week are dying because of delays in emergency care.

So is it time to get in the army to sort things out once and for all? I would like to get my father back. I would like to have my brother back. Does he really mean it? Or is this just yet another cynical, massive money-making exercise for Prince Harry at the expense of his beloved family? We'll debate that later in the program. from London.

This is Piers Morgan Unsensert with Richard Tice and Isabel Oakshot. And a very happy welcome to the first Piers Morgan Uncensored of 2023 with me, Richard Tice and Isabel Oakshot, taking control this week whilst Piers finishes his festive holidays. And given the state of the way the country is in, we can completely understand why he's not exactly rushing back. Now, a new year, it's about new stuff. surely, drawing a line under the bad stuff that happened last year,

and hopefully feeling a bit optimistic about what's to come. New hope, new ideas, new determination to do things, that little bit better. Well, that's the theory. My dream is that just as one of the largest economies, one of the most developed nations in the world, surely we should be well-run, properly, properly organised, with low taxes, great public services. things working reliably and preferably on time.

Surely that's not too much to ask, is it? Yeah. It feels like that is a pretty distant hope right now. Now, look, I want to be optimistic about 2023, and I'm sure we are going to find some things to look forward to, but it really doesn't help, does it, when the first day back at work is marred by yet another train strike. And we're already paying record levels of taxes.

People are thinking about that as self-assessment looms. And for many of us, we're going to have to pay even more come April. And what exactly are we getting in return for our hard-earned cash? And what exactly in Britain actually works? It seems to me that the more we pay, the worse estate public services are in. It's not just rail strikes which affect the whole of the rest of this week, but also the National Highways officers are on strike this week. The people who run driving tests are walking out.

The rural payments agencies are strike. And next week, some ambulance workers are also joining in the fun, along with tube workers on the Elizabeth line, the London Elizabeth line, which only opened nine months ago. Not much good if there's nobody there to run it. Oh, yeah, and we've also got school teachers in Scotland and nurses again the week after. And meanwhile, the NHS crisis just gets worse as record pressure and delays in A&E departments, record waiting times for ambulances, a cancer crisis,

all of this contributing to a terrible excess death crisis, hundreds of people a week at the moment. The greatest increase in the 30 to 64 age bracket, so not just the very elderly. But don't worry, I mean, at least our borders are secure. No one's entering the country in record numbers. Just imagine, just imagine, the outcry that would be if nearly 46,000 illegal migrants

crossed the English Channel in the last 12 months and if they were being housed in nice hotels at vast taxpayer expense. Yes, that's you and I. Frankly, Piers, the only reason for you to come back is to see your beloved Arsenal, possibly win the Premier League for the first time in 19 years. Now, look, I do keep telling you to stop being so negative.

We're trying, but it's not easy. That is a very, very negative intro to the whole thing. I don't think people want to start the new year listening to a giant whinge fest. So we're going to try hard not to do that. Have you got anything positive today? Actually, I have. Have you noticed that things do actually seem to work

when, yes, the military are running things. When they're running the logistics, passport controls seem to work rather well just before Christmas, when the military were in charge, the building of the nightingale hospitals, the vaccine rollout, the Queen's extraordinary funeral arrangements, split second perfect,

to name just a few. So maybe we should get the military running the NHS. More on that a little bit later. But first, another source of chaos is, of course, our trains. Four in five services were cancelled today as 40,000 RMT workers walked out. And more is to come with passengers expected to face five days of misery this week.

But the RMT boss, yes, Mick Lynch, he said from a picket line this morning that the government know what they need to do to reach a settlement. Well, we're out on strike again this morning in pursuit of the settlement. The government and the companies have not put any fresh proposals to us.

They know what needs to be done to move towards a settlement, how to work through the problems and get to some documentation that we could all support. But that's not happened so far. We're hoping in the next few days that they will come to us

and propose more meetings and more sessions of that. negotiations but at the moment that's simply not there the government has let these strikes go ahead and that's unfortunate but that seems to be their position at this time well joining us now is former RMT assistant general secretary Steve Headley thanks for joining us today I mean these strikes are going nowhere are they don't seem to be making any progress well I mean look the reality is privatisation has been an absolute disaster and we have the worst of all worlds and now

with the government's really getting the train operating companies to manage the system rather than actually run it. The government are interfering in the negotiations in a negative way. And really, if you did your sort of neo-fascist resume of where the country is bringing the army. I don't think it's neo-fascist. I think that's what was it in there. Yeah, you brought me on to get my opinion. So there you go. And we have a situation where capitalism isn't working.

We've got the NHS in crisis because it's been on their first. Yeah, but we're here to talk, Steve, here to talk about the RMT, where the median pay of your members is about just under 40,000, about 38,000 pounds, so quite significantly above the average. How much are you on?

It's not really relevant. We're not on strike. We're not on strike. Nobody would notice if you did go on strike, would they? Well, I think we would have no one was sitting in this day. I'll tell you what would happen. Steve, what would happen if we went to strike is that we'd be replaced.

And the point is that the RMT members, they're essentially holding the whole country to ransom. But you can't, really, I know you're reading everything off your auto queue there because you're just standing in for somebody. But can you come up with something original? Can you come up with something original? You're holding the country to ransom, right? The government are holding the country to ransom.

They're the ones that are stopping the negotiations. The government are the ones who are preventing the train operating companies come to an agreement with the RMT. So they're holding the country to do. ransom, not the unions. So where's your original solution to this problem? My solution is to give people an inflation pay raise.

That's not original. Sorry? That's not original. You said that we had nothing to original to say. I'm asking you, what is your original solution? Okay, all right, well, okay then, let's have a complete change of the economic system that we have. Let's have workers' councils, take control in the country

and see how your army get on then. That's communism. No one wants communism in this country, Steve. Is that original enough for you? No one's Communism in this country. It's not realistic. What we want is our public services for which we're paying ever higher taxes to work publicly, Steve.

We've got the sort of, you know, the variation of a British fascist party roll out in front of us who want to bring in the army. Unfortunately, the army can't run the railways, can they? Well, we didn't actually say that the army did. Well, you did. No, you were reading it off the auto queue,

you couldn't come up with it, original idea, could you? No, I was listening. If you were listening, you would have heard that the context of the army suggestion was the NHS. Although I have to say, I suspect that the army would do a better job of running the railways than is being done right now. I suspect Colonel Blim could do a better job than you two, right off the awful queue? Let's try and be positive, shall we, Steve, as opposed to negative. It is the new year after all. So you want an inflation-link pay increase. What about the productivity improvement,

as opposed to the old archaic Spanish working practices that exist around across a large-a-partner railways? Well, for example, you have to sort of decide voluntary working on some of the old. Sundays, for example. So do you not have fondly working on Sundays? The property managers in Houston can't do some property management maintenance in St. Pancras because it's too far to walk. Because they work for different companies. They didn't work for different companies.

They work for network rail. But they're in different regions. It's like you. Give me a break. It's 400 yards down the road. It's like you saying, why don't you go up and do something for ITV upstairs? Because you don't work for them. You work for a different region?

So you just want more pay, but with no productivity improvements whatsoever. That's not a realistic world that everybody lives in. The realistic world is you and your mates, who you actually help, you come on here as what Peters for, have got massive tax breaks, you're offshoreing money. What are you talking about, Steve?

You're offshore and money. You're avoiding tax. Steve, you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm talking about the rich in this country. Hang on a minute. Are you trying to say that doesn't happen? Hang on a minute. You were talking about us too.

You were talking about us. You were. I said your mates. You were. You said you and your mates and you just accused us. Sorry, have I rattles your cage? Yes, you have. Have you got something?

Have you got something offshort as well? Absolutely nothing whatsoever. Have you not? Nothing whatsoever. Although frankly, I'd quite like to have it offshould. Yes, I would because I don't think, I don't think, I don't think that my taxes are well used in this country. And I thoroughly object. Why don't you leave?

I thoroughly object. Why don't you stop lively people? Why do you assume I've got mates who run rail rail companies? I haven't got any mates that you did. You said my mates in the... system who run the railways. I said, your mates, you're offshore and money. The reality is, you just want more cash.

Nonsense. What's what you're talking about? All you want to do is you want more cash for ever worse services. I think people are happy to pay for proper decent railways and public services. Do you understand, right? Do you understand that the money that the government are paying the train operating is actually getting paid out to shareholders? Do you understand that's where it's going?

I do. Hundreds of millions. I understand that. And I've said to your... I've said to your colleague Mick Lynch, right, you've spoken, now let me stop. I've spoken to Mick Lynch, and I agreed with you. I agreed with you. You shouldn't be sending money offshore. The reality is, right, that if that money wasn't paid out the shareholders,

and it was paid out that people had actually run the railway. As long as they run them properly, efficiently, into a timely fashion like happens in Switzerland. All right, let's rule back a minute here. If that money was paid to the workers instead of the shareholders, there wouldn't be a problem, would there? But you've got to have modern contemporary working practices while the archaic practices like you've got. Sorry? Yeah, we work in the private sector. Yeah, and look, it's working out very well for you, isn't it?

Well, I tell you what, it's not working out very well in the railroads, is it? Well, no one's at work. It is a private sector in the railways. It's not, you not understood that? Have you not understood that the state subsidising the railways to a billion pounds a month. And it's essentially a nationalised business. Most of it's going into, most of it's going into the pocket of shareholders. I want to help you find a solution.

Oh, you seem like it. I do, but you don't seem to want to talk about productivity, do you? You don't want to talk about some modern-day practices that helps the industry. No one else in the UK has guaranteed... Let me know when I can speak. Well, I'm just asking you a question. You have said quite a lot, I would say, already. You've asked me to explain my position, but you're not given me a chance.

No, what you've actually done is sat there. Would you like me to speak? I'm not sure. I frankly, I'm not sure what's going to come out of your mouth. Well, we're in a similar situation. You sat there. You sat there and accused me. What's going to come out of your mouth?

Oh, I see that it's up there on the auto queue. You sat there and you're unfortunately not the auto queue. You sat there and accused me of being an advert for the Hitler youth. How do you justify that? That is downright offensive. You're an absolute fascist, right? You're just ridiculous. You're a pair of fascists.

You sit here. Listen, honestly, this is actually a joke. You sit here. It's a joke. You're like a good. You're like an LAT. You're an embarrassment for your industry. You're an embarrassment for unions.

I'm not here. How can you justify yourself? It's actually not. It really is laughable. You come on here and read out an auto queue and get paid thousands of points. I think you've dug your own grave. I think we'll move on.

Thank you very much. Thank you. It's a wonderful pleasure. For joining us. I don't think it has, has it. Thank you. Thank you, Steve. Next tonight, should employers

have to give a proper justification as to why workers are not allowed to work from home? That's the call from a conservative MP Should we really be making it easier for people to work from home when an economy is on its knees? We'll be debating all of that and, of course, our reaction to that extraordinary chat with Steve Headley. Fair idea. Well, still to come, Viganuary and Dry January, quite enough to turn you to drink and a fillet steak.

Should we actually take part in these things when pubs, butchers and farmers need our support in the cost of living crisis? We'll be debating that one shortly. Actually, we've just got to take a bullet because that was quite a punchy start to the new year in terms. I mean, that's my first interview in the new year. And all Steve wanted to do was to throw, frankly, libelous allegations at the pair of us. Yeah. And he didn't really want to discuss the essence, the substance of the issue, which is how do we get through this issue with the real strikes? Well, he had no original solutions.

So his whole thing was, you're not original. reading this. I mean, obviously, we weren't reading an interview with him and then chucking out this wild stuff. Offshore money, Hitler youth, mad fascists, I mean, just completely bonkers. In all my

years of interviewing people, I have to say I have never come across a character like him. And I actually found him quite offensive. He was offensive, he was libelous, he was a full-blown communist, but the reality is he didn't want to talk about the substance of productivity improvements. Actually, he was

really on the back foot when we talked about the old working practices, the Spanish working practices, and I got him when I talked about the people who wouldn't do the property maintenance at St. Pancras if they do property maintenance at Houston. Yeah, he didn't have an answer to that. He didn't have the answer because he knew I was right and he just didn't want to discuss it. And basically his whole thing was just attacking us personally. Just attacking us personally rather than saying actually how do we help the country? Quite extraordinary, it seems to me. Anyway, there we are. Not a bad start to Pearce Morgan uncensored in 2023. So moving on, the chair of the Commons Women and Equality's committee, Caroline,

notes, has called on employers to give a proper justification for denying workers the right to work from home. But as the economy is on its knees and so many people are suffering mental health issues, I just wonder whether working from home is really a force for good. Well, despite coming out of lockdown, figures are clearly showing that civil servants are still not back at their desks. Three years ago, there were some 27,000 desks being used in Whitehall, and now there's less than 22,000. That's a reduction of about a fifth. And across the whole of the UK,

there's 1.8 million square metres of workspace that's no longer being used in the civil service. That's the size of about 250 football pictures. So joining us now, our broadcaster Harriet Minter, along with journalist Angela Epstein. And Harriet, you've written quite extensively on this issue, isn't it? This is your main subject on the kind of the merits, as it were, of working from home. So I have been a long-term fan of having more flexibility in how and where we work.

So thinking about actually how we move our working practices into the 21st century. We know that 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, was created by Henry Ford 100 years ago for workers on a production line. That's not how the majority of us are working in 2023. So we need to think about actually how do we work in a way that is really efficient, that enhances productivity, and that gives people actually a better sense of their whole life and work as part of it, rather than trying to cram everything into the hours outside.

Well, it all sounds very nancy, nancy, but what about productivity? I think because that's the key, because if we look at productivity, the reality is that certainly in the public sector, I think we're seeing some serious productivity issues. And I think this is a good moment to bring in the journalist Angela Epstein. Angela, a very good evening to you. Thanks for being with us. So what's your view on this?

Harriet is convinced that working from home makes people more productive. I need a bit more convincing than that. What's your view, Angela? Well, let me just put a little bit of skin in the game here. My second son is now 27 years old. Clearly, I was a child bride. But I started working from home when I went freelance. I gave up a staff job after he was born.

And it made me thoroughly miserable. But I battled on and did it for years through another two children. I think it made me a bad mother. Wow. Because I was always frustrated. Definitely. I think I was very frustrated because I was thinking,

oh, it's funny, I could just put on a suit, get out, finish the job at work, come home, and not have the work hanging over me all the time because it's ever-present. And obviously, the work of a journalist, is to that degree that kind of work. I mean, I wasn't a news reporter on the front line. I was writing features.

But, you know, you're not within the confines of an office. And I felt I lost a bit of my soul in the process. I felt guilty when the kids came in from school and I was halfway through something. I felt guilty if I, I mean, I always met a deadline, but sometimes it nearly killed me doing so. And now I've reached a happy balance where I work not, I don't work at home.

Home is my base, but I also go into offices to do some of my work. I travel for work. And it's taken me a long time to get that balance too. But I think there's so much that people lose out on when they work from home. The social scale. I mean, we've talked about the economy, obviously, in the footfall for businesses that lose out from all the traffic of people using their facilities. But I think as individuals, I mean, I would hate it if my children, my next generation,

the next generation in their 20s and whatever, work from home. I think you miss out on the social skills, the productivity, the ingenuity, the imagination, sparking off on ideas, all of those things. Yeah, well, Angela, I was so interested in what you said there about working from home, making you a bad mother. I mean, that's quite a divisive thing to say. I have to say, as a mother of three, I understand why you're saying that.

I mean, children, especially when they're little, they seem to have a kind of magnet. Whenever you're on that laptop, they come right to you, don't they, and make your working life as difficult as it can be. You end up feeling that you're actually, giving not giving your best to either. Is that what you meant by that? I think so. I mean, when I say a bad mother, you know, I fed them and I loved the very bones of them and was there, you know, picking up from the school gates and doing all of those things. But I think on reflection,

and hindsight is a wonderful thing, I hated the fact that a part of me was always sort of lurching elsewhere. And envy is a horrible thing. But I would look at friends who had kind of, can I say ring fence jobs, a friend who would be a dentist or was working in admin, and there were specific hours. And they gave their role, and yes, they had to negotiate

with opes and nannies and play groups and things. But once they were in there, they became the person they were, and when they came home, they could then be mother again. And I think that makes it difficult. I can see Harry absolutely wincing here. I think you want to come in.

Harry, you bounce in here. But I do want to push this point about, productivity because it's so important whether you're in the private sector or the public sector. I'm so glad to you raised it. So what we know is that in the first two quarters of 2020, which is the last point of data we have for productivity, productivity was higher than when it was pre-pandemic. So when we looked productivity in 2019, 2020, when we had more people working from home when we had more hybrid working, productivity is higher. What's your source of that? Because anecdotally, I'm going to push you on that. The ONS. The Office for National Statistics.

I noticed you've not commented on the parenting thing. So can I just say, do you have children? I do not have children. I have lots and lots of friends with children. But you've never tried to do your job with children running around the house. Every single woman I know who is a mother has told me that at some point they feel that they are a bad mother because they are working. It goes with the territory generally, right? That's part of it.

So when people say to me, oh, if you're working from home, you feel like a bad mother, I have to laugh because I'm like, well, what? do you want us all to do to stop women working altogether and just send them back to be housewives? Is that what we should be saying? But I'm interested in this O&S point because anecdotally, if you just look at what's going on in the public sector, I think many people would feel that productivity is collapsing. And that is why we have data, Richard, versus anecdotes. Because when we go for anecdotes, they're not scientifically factually threat. So let's pick up the home office. So we have data instead.

So you've got the home office where there's about 62% in December were in the office. We've got a situation where the home secretary admitted that the case. caseworkers on the illegal migrants cross channel they're doing one case a week quite possibly working from home you've got dwp occupying so we've got case workers doing case work doing one case a week which they accept which they all accept is not good enough and that's why we look for the data you see or we'd question it where we don't say oh they're working from home therefore they're not doing the work but let's take passports say why is it why is it only

doing one case a week why is it so complicated why is it so hard well maybe let's look at passports for example and we know that actually getting a renewal of a passport became increasingly difficult over the last 12 months when the passport office were working from home? Or did it become difficult because they didn't have the technology and the system set up to do it properly?

Now that's a different thing. If we're saying that actually, our government is not set up for work in the 21st century. Ah, so you're agreeing with me that the public sector is less productive. No, I'm not. I'm saying if that was the case, and please do show me the data, not the anecdotes. But if that was the case,

we have to look actually not just at the people, but at the technology and the systems that are in place. The passport data was clearly irrefutable. Everybody could see that. Angela, do you want to just pop in here on this critical issue? As a business person myself, I'm very focused on productivity. And I just think it's collapsing in the public sector, where there's a lack of accountability. Absolutely.

And, you know, we've got an energy crisis, and we're heating and we're lighting all these buildings. And nobody's there. They're all at home on their computers, eating hobnobs and all that kind of stuff. I mean, I'm not suggesting that we're... work from home are slackers and they're not doing their bit. And there are plenty of people that I know work very hard. And there is scope for flexible working. I mean, it would have helped as a, you know,

I would have definitely gone back to a staff job if there'd been flexibility in terms of being able to some work from home or finish earlier to carry on in the evening. I think a lot of women, not just women with children. You know, I don't want to sort of, you know, prejudice others. There might be people with other domestic commitments, elderly parents, somebody infirm within the family who would appreciate that flexibility. But I think what we miss out on here, productivity is a response to our humanity. We're human beings.

When we work well, we work with other, we do more, we produce more. Indeed. And we're happy in our work, we do our work better. Indeed. Thank you. Thank you so much, Angela, and thank you very much. Thank you, Harriet. I mean, maybe there's a sort of a hybrid where we could all agree that actually

maybe if you're sort of reading or some boring dull report it might best do that at home or writing a report there's a sort of hybrid maybe three three and a half days in the office and a day two days a week working from home I mean the kind of the flip side of this and I think the hybrid thing is quite attractive is if people begin to feel under pressure that they should be able to work from home and I do think that Angela made a really important point there about parents look it's really hard to work from home when your children are little you do end up feeling like everything's just an absolute mountain to climb. You're parenting poorly. You're not working properly because you can't concentrate. And it would be pretty bad if it got to a point where we fetishise working from home so much

that actually parents of young children are feeling forced into that setting. And then you get more stressed and under more pressure actually from your employers, from your bosses. And we're full scale back into the mental health thing. Back into the whole mental health thing. Great. Well, there we are. Fascinating discussion, we'll be talking more about working from home for sure. Coming up, things seem to be working pretty well. When the military run the logistics, although you wouldn't believe it if Steve Headley was in charge.

Passport control, that was working well, building the Nightingale hospitals, the vaccine rollout, the Queen's extraordinary funeral arrangements to name just a few. So is it time for the military to solve the management crisis in the NHS? We'll debate all that coming up next. Well, still to come tonight, the fun of the funding. Police are encouraging us to take part in Viganuary and Dry January after over-indulging over Christmas. Well, I don't think I did. Maybe you did.

Is it really what we should be doing when so many businesses are struggling? So we'll be discussing that shortly. But first, of course, it's a new year, but reports of a crisis in the NHS are sadly nothing new. Health Secretary Steve Barclay has been blaming high cases of flu, COVID and COVID. and fears over Strep A for what he's called the massive pressure the NHS is facing over this period. But isn't this all just feeling a bit like Groundhog Day? I mean, every year in the country, the media spend the whole of January reporting about a crisis across the NHS, our hospitals, and always lay the blame at the feet of the government and a lack of funding.

So the question is, is it time we bring in the army to help with logistics and help get things back? on track. Well, joining us to discuss this is former chairman of the British Medical Association, Chan Nagpole, along with British Army commander down the line, Colonel Richard Kemp. And a very good afternoon evening to you, Chan. So yet again, we've got a winter crisis. This feels as bad as ever, but every winter we hear it's as bad as ever. And the NHS has never had more.

money. So what's going wrong? I just wonder whether actually it's you've got the doctors and the nurses and the consultants trying to do a brilliant job on the front line, but they're constantly let down in the back office by the management. Look, we've, as you said, been in crisis for a long time. In fact, I remember before the pandemic hit us in back December, January 2020, I was doing interviews about the crisis then. If you remember, there was also the Red Cross were drafted in. So we've actually had many years of the NHS trying to provide a service without the infrastructure of doctors, nurses, beds, community facilities that we have actually needed. But what's different this time is the scale and magnitude of what is an incredible pressure

with a backlog of 7 million patients waiting for treatment. And there's also another hidden backlog, which we don't talk about. I'm a GP. And it's a backlog of suffering. It's about people who don't come into the statistics. of needing an operation, but children waiting a year for a mental health assessment, people with diabetes, rheumatoid, who are waiting a year to see a specialist.

And the suffering is horrific, but we know waiting lists are, they're record highs. Spending is at a record high. So you've got to say, look, it's not working under the current system. Something needs to give, something needs to be reformed, where can we bring in extra help urgently? It's not just a question of taking years to train the staff. So I want to bring in Colonel Richard Kemp,

former British Army commander. Richard, a very good evening. Thanks for joining us. Look, we've seen in other walks of life that the military be superb at organizing things, logistics. We know in the NHS, for example, one of the crises we constantly hear in Chan

may have hopefully agree on this, is that too many people are sort of blocking beds and not getting through the system. Could the army player use role in the logistics of getting a flow-through faster of patients into A&E, through A&E, into the hospitals and back out, preferably, to home? We might as well, the army is sorting everything else out for the country at the present. So let's bring them into this, might as well.

To be honest, I think, you know, the armed forces exist to defend this country, but they also have a core role of standing in. or providing support for the civilian authorities when the government deems that's necessary. And if it does deem that's necessary now, then let them do it. I'm sure they can bring a lot to the party. During the COVID crisis, they played a major role in helping the NHS to plan

and organise a pandemic that they hadn't faced before. And that was an important function. So they could do that now. They could certainly do that now. It's not the answer. I mean, the answer is for the NHS, to sort itself out or to be sorted out, some other help. And the armed forces are not.

They don't exist just to put sticking plasters on government to other government departments that don't work properly. I want to bring Charm back in here because you referred to the huge backlog, which was linked to the response to the pandemic. I mean, the BMA had to play its part in that, though, didn't it? You say you're a GP. One of the reasons there is such a backlog,

is because there was not good access to GP services during the pandemic. Your members are responsible for that partly, are they not? No, I wouldn't say that at all. In fact, we and myself as a GP followed, in fact, the instructions, the directives of NHS England. It was NHS England who actually told us that we should not be spreading the infection in our waiting rooms. Well, you could have pushed back on that, couldn't you? You could have pushed back. And you chose instead to repeatedly endorse the whole online appointments thing,

which of course works for some people, but was pretty catastrophic for others. But, you know, the ultimate issue we have in the NHS isn't about what may or may not have occurred during the COVID pandemic, although that, of course, has made things much worse. But what we've seen over successive years before the pandemic is a downgrading of our infrastructure. And, you know, when just look at the facts, we have about 45,000 fewer doctors, compared to OECD averages. Germany has three times as many, four times as many hospital beds per capita.

France, three times as many. So in fact, we don't have capacity. Yeah, but I'm going to pick you up on there because actually the OECD spending, the UK is almost bang in the middle of average spending per capita, which is the right measurement to use. So that seems to prove that you're right.

The data clearly shows there's not enough doctors per thousand, nor nurses, nor beds. So therefore, where's the money going? Sure. And my concern is the money is going to ever more layers of bureaucracy, bloated management that's actually blocking things. And that's why I think it may be useful to bring in another pair of eyes to help out. We all want this great public service to work smoother, faster and with better outcomes. Look, we all want the NHS and I want the NHS to be as efficient as possible.

But I think that when you look at current spending, which includes the spending during the COVID period, including the 37 billion spent on test and trace, that's not the. the same as what has occurred in the last 10 years where the UK has spent, according to the Nuffield Trust, about £30 billion less than our EU neighbours. Do you think that £37 billion on test and trace was money well spent? No, I don't. I really don't. I mean, I don't need to rehearse all the arguments. It really was a huge sum of money that did not achieve what it should have done. Okay, and to ask a really difficult question, is the NHS, as it currently is,

is it fit for purpose? I think, and I actually really believe that the NHS, if it was given the right infrastructure, would be fit for purpose. I'll tell you why I say this. That's not what I ask, is, is it fit for purpose now? At the moment, it's certainly not delivering on the population's needs.

So it's not fit for purpose? No, I didn't say that. It is fit for purpose as a system. And I remember, I've been a GP for 30 years, and I remember when I was telling patients that the standard for them was to actually weigh. 18 months for a hip operation. That was the standard of the NHS. I saw the investment during

it was actually Tony Blair's term and it went down to 18 weeks. So what it proves is it give us the right resources. We can deliver a good service. One of the reasons for that actually and you're quite right about that is that they use the private healthcare sector much, much more than is currently the case. Just before we finish, I just want to go back to Colonel Kemp because this issue of, you know, Chalnd accepts that things are not working as they should. Just what sort of capacity might there be within logistics or engineers for how many months to try and to try and help solve some of the blockages? That feels to me such a critical short-term issue. Well, I think the armed forces helped during COVID.

And one of the major, it wasn't just manpower, it wasn't just providing people to do jabs or to take tests. But one of the major issues was organization. The armed forces know how to organize in the event of the crisis. And that's what they use. They use those skills. And that helps, I think, the NHS enormously. In addition to that, there is, of course, medically trained personnel in the forces. There are doctors, nurses, other specialists who could be deployed.

But on a relatively limited scale, because the army's been cut or the armed forces have been cut to such a degree, there's actually very fewer than now compared to what perhaps once there was. So they could provide an impact. They could provide help. But I think mainly they, you know, if I, if I. I was to guess what assistance they provide, it would be in terms of organization planning leadership as well. And I think leadership is, in many ways, is a fundamental issue here.

The armed forces is pretty good at leadership. Obviously, there's a lot to be desired in some respects. But I think one thing that seems to me to stand out about there, Jess, is our lack of leadership. You've got too many people who are being paid too much money to be directors of diversity or of lived experience. and not enough people actually... Don't get started on the directors of Linden Experience.

Richard, thank you so much for your thoughts without question. And, John, thank you so much indeed. I think that's the point, though. What Colonel Kemp says about leadership and looking at it from afar and coming in and saying, right, you should do this and this and that. That's real leadership.

I also just think we've got to be much more honest about the state of this thing. I mean, how long do we go on saying it's on the brink of collapse and all about it. It is broken. And the question now is, do we actually have to have a fundamental rethink about what the NHS does? Well, I think we absolutely do. I think we've got to have fundamental reform. We all want the NHS to be brilliant,

but the truth is, at the moment, sadly, it's not. Well, next tonight, yes, Prince Harry, we've got to talk about him. He says he wants to be part of his beloved family, not an institution. But it's any way back for him after this latest explosive interview and even more bombshells on the way in his latest, his new memoir, spare we'll be discussing that up next welcome back well like most people rich and I spent the last few weeks stuffing ourselves with turkey and drinking a little too much booze well actually I'm not sure I did I was quite careful

not so sure about you I'm a bit worried about my scales you went on the scales and then claimed they were broken exactly well you know I've got to find some excuse I have to say I have a top tip for that have you ever tried moving your scales around the bathroom because you can get different results like if you move them different places. I got about five different results. I'm going with the lowest one. And of course, the start of January always comes with the fun police telling us all that we should be not drinking and going for some veganry scenario. I am not so sure about all of that. I'm not sure at all. I mean, we've got landlords, farmers facing the strain, the cost of living crisis, biting.

Is it really time? Do we just look after our health? Or maybe we should look after the pubs and the Butchers instead. Well, joining us now is broadcaster, former Brexit Party MEP, Alex Phillips, and the talk TV commentator, Paula Rohn-Adrian. Great to have you with us for the pack. And look, what treats we've got, you know? We know how to give everyone a good time. I want it. The smell. No, I'm for it. Really? Yeah.

What even is it? Perhaps, Alex, you can explain to us what's actually on this place. It's saving the world. It's saving the world. It's saving the world. And it's saving yourself. From what? From fat, from cholesterol, from high blood. So is this your thing? Absolutely. None of that is going to save me.

I mean, seriously. Well, so these look okay. So these are sausage rolls with presumably no pork. I have no idea what that kind of pasty thing is that's going on. I'm going to be bullish. I'm going to be bullish. Come on, Richard. I'm going in.

I'm going in. You keep talking, folks. This is vegan cheese. We're literally seeing the lifeblood come back into you. That's what's happening live on air. Does it look as though? Blood is rising in my face. I don't want it now.

It's plastic. I am seeking volunteers for this pink thing. Matching my shirt. I don't know what it's made of. When I thought it was just a load of processed cow parts or something I was for it. Now I know that it's made of mould and fungus in a vat in a factory.

I'm not so interesting. It's vegan ham, actually, just to correct you on that, it's vegan ham. I've never looked up how they make vegan food, though. It is genuinely moulds and fungus and all sorts of weird swill. It can.

Now you tell me, I've just eaten something. I know. But it's also about sustainability, though, on a serious note. It's about sustainability. It's about us trying to find new ways in which we're going to keep the planet alive and ourselves. Because we're not going to starve to death, thanks to climate change, etc. We're not going to be seeing masses of refugees coming across the channel because we've got crickets now that we can eat. We've got ants.

We can eat. Paula, what's more sustainable than a wonderful, wonderful beef herd of Aberdeen Angus, creating delicious meat when their grass. I just set herself up for something here because you started talking about insects and things. So next time I have to say, we will have a plate full of insects, for you. We're going to do it. Alex, you and I, we can do it. I went to one of those restaurants. It's not good. You're the first in the queue.

I actually, rarely, I agree with you on some of this. I'm not so keen on the whole vegan thing, but definitely we should be eating less meat. And I don't think that's going to cause a problem. But the thing is about this vegan trend that people don't understand. And also, you know, what do you think powers those factors? Happiness and joy and goodwill for the environment? Of course it doesn't. Wind. Wind farms.

It gives you wind, I'm sure. Exactly. That'll give me plenty of wind, later on. The thing is about these friends, look, these health fads, big food, the big food industry jumps on them. They did it with low fat. They're doing it of veganism. They try and make you feel like you're going to be healthier. It's going to be better for the world. It's just a way for them to sell more ultra-processed rubbish, make a profit. It doesn't make people healthier.

It doesn't move the needle on climate change at all. It's a con. But we know that type 2 diabetes is one of the best. biggest killers now that we're confronting. We're like third in Europe in terms of obesity. At that, we're going to move on because we've got another huge issue. Once again, it's Prince Harry. Hot air in this case. More hot air from Prince Harry. And he has got an interview coming up this weekend with Tom Bradby, who is a former Royal's correspondent, knows the Royals very well. And I think it's looking pretty spicy. I wonder if we've got a clip of that that we can show here.

And every single time I've tried to do it privately, there have been briefings and leakings and planting of stories against me and my wife. You know, the family motto is never complain, never explain, but it's just a motto. Ah, that wasn't Tom Bradby, was it? In any case, I think that the Bradby interview is going to be pretty punchy. And yet it's get more whinging from how to do you. Now, Paula, you're inclined to be sympathetic, aren't you? Tell us why. Well, I just want to just focus on that word that you use, the adjective of describing what we're going to be hearing on Sunday evening. You said winging. And, and Isabel, I know you're not talking about another human being whinging about racism.

And I know that you're not talking about another human being, whinging about mental health. That's exactly what I'm talking about. That's exactly what I'm talking about. wanting to commit suicide. We heard her own mother saying that so heartful, so emotionally. So we're not talking about winging. We don't need any more of that, though, do we really.

Well, clearly we do, because clearly people are not listening and what we're getting is just this kind of brick wall effect. And when we get the brick wall effect, what that means is, is that the person who is hurting is going to keep on talking. But why would you talk so openly to the whole world? If you want to resolve matters with your family, if you want to resolve your mental health issues,

surely do that privately with your loved ones, with your family, Alex. Surely that's the right way. What I don't get is, you know, he's talking about how the media gave him a hard time, all the intrusion into his life, how it's caused him so much distress, how it's caused his wife so much distress, all the backlash against her.

And what they're doing is just courting more of that. It's a bit like giving an arsonist a lighter. If I, as their therapist, I'd be like, maybe don't do the big global six series Netflix thing. But we're both not listening. He's answered that question. He said to us, down that camera, he said to us, every time I wanted to do it personally,

I then read something about me. I then saw a report about me or my wife. I tried to do it personally. So do we hear that? Oh, it's a text from my brother. That he tried to do it personally? Or do we just simply dismiss it? And this is where we go back to your question, Richard.

Should we be doing this in private? Should we be doing this personally about mental health? Let me answer that question. No. When you are talking about something so powerful, something that has changed your life, ripped you away from your family, you've got to be able to speak about it openly.

Well, look, I think we're not going to agree on this one, I'm afraid. Let's have a sausage draw. No, definitely not. Enough of those to snow. We've got just one minute left. We did want to talk about masks. They are making a horrible reappearance. Alex, I can hear in your voice.

You have got a cold. I've got a cold. He's recovering from gold. We would frankly have spent the whole of Christmas in the new year behind a mask if we followed government advice. Paula, you on for masks? Absolutely.

I got a text message from my GP this morning asking me if I'm going to come in, wear a mask and I'm going to wear it because the NHS are asking me to. And that's our responsibility. But hang on. But our responsibility is, is to follow the evidence.

And there's no evidence globally whatsoever that ordinary masks make any difference. It didn't help people in Germany. It didn't help us with the Omicron variant. There's no scientific evidence, Paula, that they make any difference at all, except to frighten people. So why would you do it?

Well, I tell you what frightens me. What frightens me is what happening in China at the moment. What's frightening... Their masks have made no difference. Well, they had lockdown and everyone complained about that. They've lifted lockdown and look what's happening. And what's frightening me...

We've proved the lockdowns at work, but let's keep on masks. And what's frightening me is what's currently happening in the NHS. We are being told that the NHS cannot cope. We are being told 500 people a week, 300 people's week. We're being told COVID. It's worse now than COVID was. Let's help the NHS. And if they say wear a mask, we wear a mask.

Alex. I was going to say, what frightens me is I've got such limited capacity in my facial hydraulics as it is. If I stick a mask on myself, you're going to have to get me CPR on the table. I can barely. breathe right now. I mean, don't stick anything more on my face. I need a mask from that vegan stuff. Well, that's it from us. We're going to be back tomorrow. Whatever you're up to, make sure it's uncensored. Good night.