Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Bassem Youssef and Dillon Danis

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

On tonight's episode of Piers Morgan Uncensored, Piers is joined by political satirist Bassem Youssef as Piers asks, How can Israel be “proportionate” about terror? Plus MMA Fighter Dillon Danis talks about his fight with Logan Paul. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Live from the news building in London, this is Pearce Morgan Uncensored. Well, good evening from London. Welcome to Pierce Morgan Unsensored. The parallels between 9-11 and last week's atrocities in Israel are painfully obvious. These were murderous terrorists, religious fanatics who killed with barbaric impunity on sovereign land. As I said yesterday, the proportion of the Israeli population murdered in these attacks was equivalent to 30,000 Americans being killed on US soil. It's so wonder Israelis expect a strong response, and Israel, as I keep saying, has every right to defend itself from Hamas going forward. But the aftermath of 9-11 taught us some tough lessons too. Across the Western world, there was a fervor for revenge.

President Bush spoke for many when he said this. I can hear you. And the people holding's down. We'll hear all of us soon. With popular rhetoric, with that yearning for justice, took America and its allies, including Britain into a trap. First came to war on terror in Afghanistan.

It lasted 20 years, cost more than $2 trillion to countless lives and ultimately ended with the Taliban back in charge of the country. Next came the illegal invasion of Iraq, which had nothing much to do with bin Laden or al-Qaeda and turned into a disaster. More than a million died. Iraq became a breeding ground for ISIS and a mysterious excuse for the war

that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction turned out to be a credibility-slaying lie. Well, this situation is very different. but the potential perils are the same. There's no dispute that Hamas committed these attacks because they've repulsively boasted about it and threatened more. But a full-blown invasion of Gaza

will be horribly difficult to execute. Retired General David Petraeus, who commanded ally forces in Iraq, describes it like this. I almost can't imagine a more challenging contextual set of circumstances here than what they face. There are tunnels, there will be rooms,

that will have improvised explosive devices. You have to clear every building, every floor, every room, every basement, every tunnel. Civilian losses are inevitable, and tough Israeli losses lie ahead as well. Well, civilian deaths are sadly inevitable. That is the grim reality of war. If Israel gets this wrong, it could turn into a long, deadly, and much expanded war, which fuels the next generation of terrorists and unleashes chaos across the whole region. Palestinian authorities already say that more than 3,000 civilians have been killed by Israeli airstrikes since last week.

Tonight, the Hamas-controlled authorities in Gaza say a hospital has been blown up in what they say was an Israeli air strike, and up to 500 people could have died. If it turns out to be true, and there are conflicting reports as I came on air, that it may have been a misfired Hamas rockets and will have to wait for verification on this, then it could be a massive turning point in this war. Every day now the civilian death toll is going to climb. It will skyrocket, of course, with any ground invasion. And every image that the ones we're seeing tonight will pile more pressure on Israel to show restraint to be proportionate.

I'll be honest. I don't know what a proportionate response is to what happened on October the 7th. How can anything be proportionate to the murder of babies in their beds, to the slaughter of 260 people in a music festival, to the kidnapping of a Holocaust survivor and 198 other hostages? to the burning alive of innocent families together in their homes. I honestly don't have the answer to that question, but it's one that Israel will have to ask itself and soon.

Well, joining me now to discuss the conflict in Israel and Gaza, is a TV host and satirist Bassam Youssef. Bassam, it's great to have you back on the program. I wish it was under different circumstances. First of all, what is your reaction to what happened on October the 7th? Oh, it was terrible, of course. kind of get our news kind of also secondhand because, you know, my, my wife's family, they live in Gaza. They have cousins and uncles there, and their house also was bombed.

We haven't been able to communicate with them for the past three days. Communication are lost. So we don't know actually what is the, how is like, how we're doing. But, you know, we're used to that. I mean, it's just like, it's, it's, it's very repetitive. We're used to that. We used to them being bombed every time and moving from one. place to the other. You know, it's just like those Palestinians, they're very dramatic. Ah, Israel killing us. But they never die. I mean, they always come back. You know, they're very difficult to kill, very difficult people to pill. I know because I'm married to one. I tried many times, couldn't kill her. I mean, there's a dark humor there and I understand why.

Oh, it's not dark human. I really, I try to get to her every time, but she uses our kids as human shields. I can never take her out. Again, I understand the humor, but to be serious, Bassem, about this. Tonight, I will be serious. I will be serious. I was watching your interview with Ben Shapiro, and I will tell you one thing. Yeah. I think that Ben Shapiro is one of the smartest people who ever walked this earth. He's very, very smart. I follow him, and I believe everything he said. And when he came out on your show, his solution was, and I quote, his solution was, that the solution for this is for Israel to annex Gaza and to kill as many son of bitches as possible

to make sure that this will never happen again. And anyone, anyone who called for a ceasefire will be a terrorist sympathizer. So God forbid, I don't want to be labeled as a terrorist sympathizer. So I agree with Ben Shapiro. I think we should kill as many son of bitches as possible. Well, let me... So far, so far, 3,500 people were killed,

including 5,000 son of bitches in the bombing of the Baptist hospital as we speak right now. one third of those 3,500 were children. So my question to Ben Shapiro is, how many more son of bitches do we need to kill so Ben Shapiro is happy? Because it changes from one year. I'm sorry, please say, I'm really at a disadvantage here.

I'm looking at a camera. I don't see you. I can hear you on my ear. The reason I'm interrupting is I think you might be, I think you're conflating different interviews with Ben Shapiro. He didn't use the phrase sons of bitches with me. Let me play to you what he actually said on my show. He did. He did. Go back to your interview.

No, he didn't. That was another interview. But let me play what he said to me. Here. Well, frankly, I don't believe in proportionate response to terrorism. I believe that the way that you stop terrorism is with wildly disproportionate response. That doesn't mean in terms of targeting civilians. It means in terms of killing as many terrorists as humanly possible. And allowing them to dictate the terms of engagement by hiding behind civilians in areas that they are supposedly responsible for means that the only option for Israel is to surrender

to Hamas's hatred of its own citizens, its willingness to use its own children as human shields. No country worth its salt could ever do that. Now, that is substantially different to what you said he said, right? He's talking specifically about Hamas terrorists. I agree with him. I agree with him. The thing is, the question is,

what is a proportionate response? Yes. Because it has been different from one tier to another. So if you look to this graph, for example, this is the death of Israeli and Palestinians, and it's changing from one year to year. It's like fluctuating like crypto. So my question is today, what is the going rate today for human lives?

I mean, 2014 was a great year for Ben Shapiro. 88 Israelis were died, and there was 2,329 Palestinians killed on the other side. That is one Israeli for 27 Palestinians. That is a very good exchange rate. What I'm saying is, what is the exchange rate for today? So you guys will be happy. That's my question. Well, it's not me, guys.

I'm not on either side. No, not you. Like when I say you guys, I say like people on the other side of that. I know that you don't think like that appears. You're one of the good guys. But let me tell you something. I mean, the reason that I'm using this is that, I mean, I can't remember what happened in 2014. And there was no music festival.

But there must be something. I mean, they must do something. It is their fault. It has to be something. I mean, in 2018, 300 Palestinian died. Ah, who's counting? You know? So the thing is, what my question is,

let's find what is the exchange rate for human life today so we know expect the future death of Palestinians and we'll be happy to it. My response to that would be this, Bassem. I thought carefully about this because I think it's very tricky for people like me to immerse ourselves into a conflict where we're not directly involved.

And I thought carefully about what I feel about this. I feel that the scale of what Hamas did on October the 7th supersedes anything else I've seen in this conflict really ever. The savagery, the slaughter of 1,300 people, the shooting of babies, the kidnapping of grandma and so on.

So if we can agree on that, which I think is inarguable, then the question then becomes, again, about proportion. I don't disagree that there's been a lot of bad stuff on both sides going back historically for decades. But if we agree that this was on a different level altogether, quite deliberately by Hamas,

designed to provoke, I'm going to... Here's my question. Let me ask you a question. And the question, because you raised it earlier about proportion. I honestly don't know what the proportionate response is. I honestly don't. I don't.

I've been watching the airstrikes. So what's your question? Well, I would ask you, if you were Israel, what would you... If I was Israel. If you were Israel and that had happened to you, what would you think would be the appropriate way for the country to respond? I would do exactly like Israel did kill as many people as possible since the world is letting me do it. I mean, I can do it because I can, you know?

But the thing is like, you know what? I agree with you. And you know what? I'm going to be even ahead of you because I see the question coming. Do you condemn Hamas for the atrocs? Yes, I condemn Hamas. I condemn Hamas is the source of all evil. They're a reason for Israel.

And you know what? Let's for a minute imagine a world without Hamas. Right. What will this word look like? Let's give this word a name and let's name this word the West Bank Hamas has absolutely no control in the West Bank and since the beginning of this street

only through August 37 Palestinian kids were killed no music festival no paragliding no Hamas since the occupation of the West Bank 7,000 Palestinians were killed no music festival no paragliding no Hamas I can go on and on and on and on

about the West Bank because in a way you're preaching to the choir I've followed this crisis. Oh, no, you're not pressure. So the thing is like, I hear you say. I know that what you're saying has validity. Of course. Of course.

Pierce. By the way, Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, I am at a disadvantage here. I can hear you. I cannot see you. I am in a claustrophobic room. And so please cut me some slack and don't interrupt me and interrupt my points. Sure. So because this has to be fair.

Because if you want to only hear your opinion, I can just condemn Hamas and go home. I can do that. So if you do you want to do that, or do you have a much more nuanced conversation? No, I absolutely wouldn't have a nuanced conversation. I wasn't aware I was interrupting you. I thought I was at any speaking. Amazing.

So let's, I mean, I would say, I would say I really applaud Israel for doing one thing that no military force in the world does. Because I heard Ben Shapiro and I heard Ron DeSantis. And they said, they said, Israel is the only military force in the world that warn civilians before bombing them. I mean, how fucking cute. That is so nice of them. Because with this logic, if Russian troops started warning Ukrainians before bombing their houses,

we're cool with Putin, right? I mean, OK, Habibi, you have warned them, go invade. It's fine. You have done your job. I mean, the thing is, and I understand all, and I also heard Ben Shapiro talking about human shield. So you remember my wife's family? They live in Gaza. So I asked them, I told them, when Israel gives you the nice warning, the cute warning,

Does Hamas force you to stay in your home so you can be bombed and use as human shield? You know, Hassan, here, my wife's cousin, he's a loser, you know. He told me, no. When I asked him, does that happen? He told me, no. The lying son of a bitch lied to me. I told him, you don't understand. Ben Shapiro and Ron DeSantis keep saying that Israel warns you, and Hamas ask you to stay put.

So I told you, he's a loser. He never kept a job. He even, like, failed in all of the interviews to become like a human shield. I would believe Ben Shapiro. Let me ask you this, Bess. So let's go with that. No, no, no, no. Let me ask you this. At some point, I must better ask you questions.

It's not a monologue for you, Bessie. If we agree, if we agree that for the 14,000 casualties, I mean, who's counting? Our human shield, does that mean every single one of those civilians was standing, obscuring a military target behind them? Because that's a lot of weapons. I mean, Hamas is packing. No, of course it doesn't. So there are some collateral damage.

Lots of collateral damage. It's fine. You kill some to save some and then kill some more. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let me ask you this. Again, it comes back to proportionate response. When the world decided it had to get rid of ISIS

because of the appalling butchery they were carrying out, it did so by also killing very sadly a lot of civilians along the way, by doing air strikes against places which help... But pinning civilians are inevitable. You said that in the beginning. It's inevitable. But once Israel has decided that they want to get rid of Hamas and Hamas is embedded with civilian population,

I'm very concerned about what's going to happen next. I've written a column tonight saying, I remember the Iraq call, which I opposed, right? I remember all this. So my question to you is, I know. What would you think would be an appropriate response by Israel to what happened? Well, these are years of disproportionate.

responses of Israel. Did it solve the solution? Did it solve the problem? Did it work before? So it will work? What will be the surprise this time? What will be the twist that will make this work this time? What? What will be different this time? Seriously, I mean, like, this is only the last 15 years. I mean, because it's too many papers. I just got this. But how will this will be different. And the thing is, I am so glad in the introduction, then you mentioned the Iraq War. I applaud you, Pierce, for saying that, because you were honest about it. You said that spreading lies like WMDs, make people look at those people as less of humans, and they would accept the death of a million Iraqi, whether by sanctions or by invasion, right? You are a good man. This is amazing.

And you know what is similar? Is when you spread the lies of 40 decapitated babies, although it was refuted. So what happens when people hear that, you know, killing babies is horrible. But when you say decapitated 40 babies, you are planting a certain image with a certain trigger in people's mind. Who has said that? Who has said that? Who has said that? You have said 40 decapitated. Who has said that? You have, you have repeated? No, no, I haven't. What? I've never said that. You haven't said on your show 40 decapitated babies? No. Never. Ben Shapiro didn't say it. No. Ron DeSantis didn't say it. Nobody has said. Okay. No, nobody said it?

No. Oh, okay. Okay, maybe I am wrong. Decapitated. Here you're wrong. I've never said that. The thing, what happened, what, yeah, no, you're wrong. But the thing is, when Iraq, the thing is, the same thing is happening in Iraq.

Ben Shapiro once tweeted, not even about Gaza, about the West Bank, when Israel continued to build the illegal settlement, he said, 2017, Israel likes to build things, and Arabs, not Palestine, not Hamas, Arabs like the bomb crap and live in open sewage. Yeah, I thought that was very, very ill-dieting the same. The Israeli defense minister, he said, those are human animals. And the thing is Ben Shapir should know better because, you know, long before the Holocaust, before Jewish people were thrown in the gas chambers, the Nazi propaganda called them rats. Now, as a human being, I will never accept that another human being being thrown into a guest chamber, but a rat, kill a 10, kill a thousand, 3,500.

They are a son of a bitch. They are human animals who live in open sewage and decapitate babies. And because of that propaganda, Mr. Morgan, that guy in Illinois, the 71 years old guy, he killed stabbing the six years old Palestinian kid in Illinois 26 times. And he used to play with him. They used to be friends. But he went in marching into their apartment, stabbing his mother and killing him, shouting all Muslims could die.

It took you 80 years to change one word from Jewish to Muslim. And then you transferred your guilt to us and took away our legs. Let me ask you a question. That deal sucks, man. Let me ask a question. How do we get from where we are

now to peace? Well, first of all, you need to change the perception. Nikki Haley, the American presidential candidate said, we are in Israel in this because it's a fight between good and evil. Now, if you already decided

someone is good, he can do no evil. And if you decide that someone is evil, it's good to kill them. Killing them is good. You see, and the thing is, it is not like something new. I mean, I look at history and I see, I'm sorry to say, and I'm sorry to say that, but Westerners

has always dealt like this with indigenous people. You first treated them like savages, you know, Native American First Nation aboriginal. They're savages. Kill all the savages. And then when they're almost extinct, you start feeling sorry for them, you know, like animals. So maybe, maybe the solution is that we kill as many Palestinians as possible so that few of them that remains do not bother you.

And maybe Nittanyahu. For another 100 years, he'll become a tree hugger. Let me just challenge you on this. And he will campaign for preserving the three Palestinians. You keep talking about Westerners like me. Okay. So let me return the favor. OK? Hamas is dedicated to the complete eradication of Jewish people.

I am not the spokesman. Why do you go? Why do you get? I'm not saying you are. I'm not saying you are spokesmen. You're talking to me. I'm fucking hate them. Bessette. You are what you're missing my point. You're talking in a generalized way about people in the West who always talk about Arabs as savages. I don't. No, no, no. I'm talking about America. I actually led the campaign. I led the media campaign in this country against the Iraq war. Okay, so I don't see people in the Middle East of savages. You are one of the good ones. But what I would say is... I am not talking about you. You're great.

No, no, it's not about me being great. We're amazing. We love you. It's about... It's about the way Hamas behaved on October the 7th was like savages, like a pack of savages. It was the worst atrocity against Jewish people since the Holocaust. There has to be... Of course.

There has to be a response. They should be eradicated. They should be killed until the last one of them. What is the proportionate response? But I don't know, but there's no Hamas in the West Bank and they're still dying there. So what's your excuse? I don't have any excuse.

Okay, what's your explanation? Sorry, sorry, my earpiece went down. Listen, I don't make any pretense that this hasn't been a massive problem. Between Palestine and Israel, going back to the mid-40s. We all know this, right? I'm, yeah, yeah, Pierce, Pierce, listen, I'm not saying that you're making.

excuse, but if you are adopting a certain point of view, you have to at least defend it. I'm telling you there is no Hamas in the West Bank. What is the excuse? Not your excuse. What is the excuse to kill those people? Well, listen, this question of proportionality is one that...

No, no, no, answer my question. I've been answering your question. You answer mine. It's actually not my job to answer your questions. It's not. Okay, not your job. I agree with you. I'm more interested in you who has family in Gaza. I'll who's an Egyptian in the Middle East, right? I'm interested in what you have to say.

Okay, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I think Hamas is the problem, okay? Right. Now, let's say Hamas is removed. Let's Hamas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm agreeing with everything about it. You want me to condemn Hamas? I will condemn Hamas, hummus, Hassan, everybody. Guys, say, wait, I can't hear you.

The earpiece. Damn, okay. Okay. Yeah, okay. Is he there? You go back, you go back. Can you hear me? Okay, go, thank you guys. Can you hear about it?

Yeah, yeah, now I can hear it. Okay. So here's the thing. Can you hear, okay, so Issaac. Let's say, for example, Hamas ceased to exist. Okay, do you hear me? Yes. Yeah, Hamas ceased to exist today.

Now, right now, in Palestine, in West Bank and Gaza, 20% of Palestinians go through Israeli prison system, whether imprisonment, whether, interrogation, whether torture. And the rest of them, they live a life of daily loss of land, of homes, of life, and they are suffocated by this. So let me ask you something. If you are a Palestinian living into these conditions for decades, would you, would you sympathize with your oppressor or sympathize with the people who claim they resist them even if they are terrorists? I have made no secret that I think the conditions Palestinians have had to exist under

are completely unacceptable. I've said that for years. So the question then becomes, how do you forge peace between two warring parts of that region who, for decades, have approached peace, in my view, with mutual sledgehammers,

with no actual desire to have peace? And I think it comes down in the end to great leadership. And I don't think there's great leadership. I don't think, well, hang on, let me make my point. I don't think there's great leadership on either side. Where is the Nelson Mandela figure here to come through all this?

Hatred on both sides. Nelson Mandela? Nelson Mandela actually have criticized Israel for being a horrible state. All of the South African activists have actually put Israel. My point is about how he responded to a country that was so divided is a template. I don't know. I haven't. I haven't met Nelson Mandela, so I wouldn't know.

But, like, there is a point, there's a very important point here. You know, I want to understand what is the logic of Israel, carpet bombing Gaza. I mean, if there's a logic, if this will make Israel safe, I want to hear the logic. So if they continue bombing, what are they hoping to achieve? Well, we know what their stated aim is. Their stated aim is to eradicate and wipe out Hamas. They believe Hamas are living predominantly in northern Gaza. They also are aware they're living among civilians.

So it's an incredibly difficult thing. As I said in my monologue, it is very, very difficult to see how they do this without massive collateral damage. So if I can understand this correctly, basically Israel is doing this to pressure the Palestinian community in Gaza to turn against Hamas. Is that right?

I'm sure that's part of it, yes. That's part of it. So this is exactly what terrorist organization do, because terrorist organizations will have no chance beating a whole nation in battle. so they terrorize and they kill the civilians in order to spread fear and terror so they can turn against their government to change their policy or to resign. You have just compared Israel with ISIS. No, I haven't.

I don't see any comparison between Israel and ISIS. It's going to be the headlines tomorrow. Peers Morgan, Israel is ISIS. Only amongst people who weren't listening. The comparison, which is more apazite, is ISIS and Hamas. They are both nihilistic terror groups intent on killing as many Jewish people and others as can possibly kill. And you can't get peace with people like that.

Absolutely. You know what? I'm going to do something that nobody done on your television. You know what I'm going to do? On your episode, I'm going to do it. I am going to pretend that I'm an Israeli citizen. I'm going to put myself in the place of an Israeli settler in the capoots. And I want to speak to my prime minister, Beniamin Netanyahu.

Mr. Biniamin Netanyahu, I have voted for you because you have promised us peace. and prosperity and security. On the 7th of October, those son of bitches Hamas, they went into a fence that is regularly heavily guarded. Usually if there's like a dove that comes close to it, it will be shot. Those people went in, and they went for six hours before IDF forces was deployed,

killing our friends, our families, kidnapping our grandmothers and babies, and went in. I want to ask you, Mr. Prime Minister, After you have fractured the Israeli community and you have fucked our courts, our Supreme Court, what are you doing with the money being given to you to the United States?

Also, you are carpet bombing Gaza with absolutely no regard to our hostages, our people. I heard a rumor in the kaput's that you're doing that as an equal. You let that happen as an excuse to carpet bomb Gaza, so you push them into Sinai. And I didn't believe that it's not my prime minister. He can never do that.

And then I watch an interview for Danny Ayel. He was your chief advisor. He was also the Israeli ambassador to the United States. And you know what he said, Mr. Prime Minister? He said that the solution for those Palestinians is to go into a vast land of Sinai and live into ten cities temporarily, temporarily, until we build Gaza again and then we invite you back. Ah, ha.

We've seen this movie before. So, when I saw this, I couldn't explain to my fellows in the kipputs. How come our Israeli government is trading human lives for another piece of land? So as an Israeli citizen, I need to hold my Israeli government accountable. And as an American citizen, I want to know all of these money that are giving to Israel. We're giving them $4 billion every year. Joe Biden said it's the best investment America ever done. Well, if I am in the place of Joe Biden, I would say, sorry, don't speak.

I would say, if I was Joe Biden, I would go down and whisper in the ears of Netanyahu and tell them, I hate bad investments. They haunt me, you know, like little finger in Game of Thrones. But the thing is, the thing is, this is the problem. Israel always victimizes itself, and I have never seen a victim putting their oppressor under siege and bombing them 24-7. Israel wants you to believe that they are the victim. Dealing with Israel is so difficult. It's like being in a relationship with a narcissistic psychopath, he fucks you up, and then he makes you think it's your fault. You look at Israel as Superman, but they're really home lander.

They are like, they are shooting fish in a barrel, and they are annoyed with the splashes. Bassim, I want to say two things. One, if you could just slightly mound your language, we are uncensored, but if you keep swearing, I'm very sorry. We have to apologize to, I am sorry. You may be offended by that. I understand passions run high, so let's not get too bogged down about the old swear word. I apologize to the viewers.

I apologize to the viewers for my language. My second question is this. The site of dead civilians. After the break, we have the managing director of The Daily Wire, which is Ben Shapiro's company. We were going to interview him on his own, but he's happy to come on and talk with you directly if you are prepared to stay. Welcome back to On the Sunset. For more on the situation in Israel, I'm joined now by the CEO and co-founder, Ben Shapiro's partner, Jeremy, Boring. Jeremy, thank you very much indeed for joining me. I'm sorry we demoted you earlier to Mir MD. You are the CEO and co-founder. You know Ben Shapiro better than anyone, really.

I did a big interview with Ben, obviously, the other night, which went around the world, and has sparked a big reaction, including from our guest, Bassam, Yusuf, who's still with us. First of all, you've been listening to Bassam and what he's been saying. What's your response? Well, first of all, I make it a point not to speak for Ben Shapiro. He's got 20 IQ points on me and speaks for a living professionally, so he's much better prepared to defend himself. But as his business partner, as his best friend, I do feel like I have to respond to the things that Basim was just saying. First of all, the question of how many sons of bitches have to be killed in order to end this conflict? I suppose that the answer is as many of them as it takes.

That doesn't mean that I or Ben or any decent person in their right mind is happy with the killing of civilians. I posted at the very beginning of this conflict that a woman or a child blown apart in Gaza is just as tragic as a Jewish baby killed in one of the settlements. That doesn't mean that Israel's actions and the actions of Hamas are morally equivalent. You know, the tragedy is the tragedy, but the moral equivalency is nonsense. If you entered Israel with the express purpose of targeting and murdering civilians with your own hands in cold blood, that is not comparable to Israel bombing targets in the Gaza Strip and killing civilians as a terrible tragic consequence. War is terrible. War is an awful thing.

That's why decent people don't lightly engage in war and why Hamas should not have have incited this war. You know, we can talk about the history of the Israeli conflict. I'm not a professional political commentator. I'm a CEO. I'm a screenwriter. And I'm certainly not Ben Shapiro. I'm not here to discuss the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

But we all saw what happened on October 7th. And the idea that Israel was not going to react severely to that or that Israel should not react severely to that is ludicrous. And the idea that Ben-Chapiro should be a moderating voice. that Ben Shapiro should be, what, saying, no, Israel should not respond in this situation. That's nonsense. Let me ask you, though, Jeremy, the question which I think is the big question, what is a proportionate response to that outrage on October the 7th,

which is the worst attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust? What is proportionate? If it's true, as reports are suggesting tonight, that there may have been a hospital hit by an Israeli strike and up to 500 people or more have died, that would seem to me, if that is verified, And it's not verified yet. You know, we don't know exactly what has happened

other than there's been a hit on this hospital. But if that is verified to have been an Israeli strike, that will strike many people as disproportionate. Certainly. But first of all, I don't know what a proportionate response is or why we would want it. I suppose a proportionate response would be for 3,000 Israelis to go through the fence, gun down innocent

Palestinian women and children, burn their bodies, burn them alive, take hostages, rape their women. No one wants a proportionate response. No moral person could possibly call for a proportionate response. The purpose of war is to defeat your enemy. The West has, in my lifetime, forgotten the purpose of war because the true cost of war is so terrible.

The last time the West engaged in war and won it was World War II, and they did it through incredible brutality. They did it by bringing their enemies to heal. That is not a thing to, that's not a thing to rah-rah about. That's not a thing to look forward to. As I said, all decent people should avoid war. But I think the sort of lie of the post-World War II, the post-war consensus lie, is that somehow war in which you kill a bunch of people and don't secure victory is morally superior to war where you do secure victory. I would say that the only way to morally justify a war is to win it.

Otherwise, the very argument that brought you into the war, this enemy must be defeated, ends up being proven a lie. I mean, Afghanistan, I think America had every right to go into Afghanistan. the Taliban was harboring Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda flew planes into buildings in the United States, killed thousands of our citizens, brought the nation into untold agony, pain, and for America had every right morally to go in and destroy the Taliban and destroy al-Qaeda.

But I would argue, Jeremy. But the Taliban now rules in Afghanistan. The war was not one. But that's my point, actually. I've done a column about this tonight for the sun here in the UK, which is I was editor of a newspaper when the Iraq wall happened. opposed it very aggressively as the editor of the paper. And sadly, we were borne out by events.

It was a complete disaster, the Iraq war, in my view. It was illegally contested, I think. And the consequences were appalling in terms of loss of life, a million people, in terms of ISIS being allowed to breed and create their merry hell around the world in terms of complete dismantlement of Iraq itself as a functioning country. And I think Afghanistan, again, 20 years of attacking an enemy,

which is now running the country again, seem to me again, to be kind of pointless. And I do wonder whether Israel, in its blind fury, which I completely understand, has thought through the consequences of actually launching a full air, ground, and sea offensive into Gaza as to actually what happens at the end of that. Well, I suppose Israel wasn't really given the opportunity

to fully contemplate what the consequences that that action might be, because Israel didn't implement. this war. This war was instigated by a horrible terrorist attack on Israel, and a state is put in a position where it has to respond. Now, one might argue that the very fact that Israel has yet to actually launch their ground invasion means that they are actually making a calculation about what the cost will be, what victory looks like. Any rational person, any decent person can engage in a conversation about what is the appropriate response for Israel. Of course they can. But this sort of moral equivalency thing, I don't think, is a sign of decency to engage in a conversation. about moral equivalency. Let me bring Bassim back in. You've been listening to this Bassim. What's your response to what Jeremy's been saying?

I'm sorry, I didn't catch a gentleman's name. It's Jeremy Boring. He's the chief executive of The Daily Wire, co-founder with Ben Shapiro of the Daily Wire. Hi, Jeremy. Please say hello to Ben Shapiro, and please tell him that I do think he is the smartest person to ever walk to earth.

Thank you so much. So as response to Jeremy, I agree with everything you said. I mean, what is disproportionate? I mean, he just used the examples from Second World War in America showing that civilian casualty is, I mean, I heard his voice. He was very sad, and he, as he was telling us, it is so inevitable to kill so many civilians because it's something that we cannot avoid. I hear the sadness in his voice, and I know that it's a very difficult decision to kill all of these civilians because that's for a higher cause. And I understand, but my question, I have two questions.

The question is, how can you justify the killing in the West Bank where Hamas does not exist? And if the disproportionate response during the overall of these years have actually worked, what will be new this time that did not happen before? I just want to, that was my question. Okay. That was my question. Okay. So now, so now if I ask the question, can I say something on my side?

Well, you've been personal. With respect, you've had a little bit personal. Bassem, with respect, I gave you half the show to have your side. Jeremy's had a lot less time. You want me to move on? You want me to leave? Or do you want me to stay? I'm going to have to let you go because we've been on there with you for 40 minutes now. Oh, okay. Bye-bye.

But listen, I would like to talk to you again and thank you for joining the program. I appreciate it. Oh, by the way, my wife's family is all right and they send us a house. It's bombed. It's beautiful. It's going to be a good, like, Halloween theme. Well, I'm very sorry for what your family are going through in Gaza. I mean, by the recent. By the way, I don't know my family.

I don't know, by the way. I haven't actually met them. They didn't even come to my wedding. They couldn't because they are stuck in Gaza. And she never saw them because, you know, Gaza is not a destination. Bassem, as I say, we hear their voices. They die. It's fine. It's fine.

Bassam, I wish your family all the very best. Thank you for joining me. I appreciate it. I don't. Thank you. Welcome back to what Cesar. We're still with me as the CEO and co-founder of The Daily Wire, Jeremy Boring. I'm joined by my pack.

The author of Stakeslakely, I'm talking to be contributor to Paula Rone Adrian, and the journalist and author, Hilary Freeman, who I'll come to all three of you in a moment. Jeremy, I just want to talk to you just pivot slightly. I read a column of the New York Post yesterday about this kind of farcical situation in America where universities like Harvard,

who were literally just named the worst school in America for failure to exercise free speech on campus, now saying that the reason they allowed their students to all sign this absurdly offensive letter in the immediate aftermath of these attacks, effectively siding with Hamas, was because of their devotion to free speech. And the reason I think it's relevant for you to answer that

is I know that you, as a company, you're producing your own children's content to counter the left and woke propaganda and so on. So it comes to me there's a neat link here. But what do you make of what's been happening in these universities in America? I think that the universities are, in many ways, victims of their own rhetoric.

One of the dangerous things to do in life is to say things out loud because pretty soon you'll have to defend them and soon after that, you'll start to believe them. And Harvard has been preaching this sort of intersectional hierarchy now for at least a decade and maybe more. The problem with the intersectional hierarchy is that someone has to be on the bottom. In the sort of name of equality or fostering some sort of better sense of equality, they've created a situation where, you know, people who they see

as having been historically in places of power now are at the very bottom and have been completely dehumanized. And one of the funny quirks is they think that that is sort of anti-majoratial anti-patriarchy. In America, it's anti-Christian white male in particular, and that it protects minorities. But of course, one of the smallest minorities in the world is the Jews. And unfortunately, in every other way, they seem to fit more in positions of power. They tend to excel. Academically, they tend to excel in business. They're disproportionately represented in media, in education, in science, you know, in traditionally white collar and governmental type roles. And so the intersectional hierarchy being preached by these schools has left them in a position where, you know, the most probably hard done by minority of the 20th and 21st century somehow has been dehumanized by them.

They don't know how to get out of the way of their own bad thinking. It's quite extraordinary. There was actually a professor at Cornell who was called on camera doing this. I think we have it. Hamas has shifted the balance of power. Yeah. Yeah. Hamas has punctured the individual.

the illusion of indensibility. Yeah. That's what they've done. It was exhilarating. Exilarating and energizing. That's a professor at a top American university. I found that completely shocking. A, that he would have that thought process,

but B, you would be so brazenly free to do it in public like that. Well, sure. I mean, if what that professor had said instead is that gender and biological sex are inextricably linked, he'd be out on the streets by now and never work again. Instead, he says that it's exhilarating to watch children murdered in their homes because of some sort of bizarre academic theory about power structures. Here's the thing. Strength does not necessarily connote virtue, but strength also does not necessarily connote a lack of

virtue. Weakness does not confer upon a person. Virtue, any more than weakness confers upon a person a lack of virtue. There are wonderful Jews in the world, and there are terrible Jews in the world. There are wonderful Muslims in the world, and there are terrible Muslims in the world. There are wonderful people in positions of strength. I think the West is a relatively extraordinary job compared to other societies throughout human history. And there are terrible people in positions of power. We need only look at the ruling regime in China, among others, to know that. And Jeremy, we know that a lot of these collectivism as you forget about the individual. Right. We know a lot of this obviously starts from childhood. You as a company have decided to take on this,

what you see is the indoctrination by the work left of kids. Tell me just briefly about that. Yeah. Well, I think that one of the things that we at the Daily Wire feel is that childhood has been sort of distorted. On one hand, we have this university system, as you were just discussing, that infantilize as adults. We refer to 23-year-olds as college kids, and we treat them like that, like kids who aren't responsible, who have no agency who can't be held accountable for their own actions. On the other hand, we have actual children, actual kids, and instead of letting them live in a world of imagination and adventure and joy and wonder, we want to use them as political props. We want to march them in our rallies. We want to hold them up as some sort of symbol of

the struggle against, you know, entrenched power structures or whatever the invoked terms are. And what we believe at the Daily Wire is actually, why don't we let adults be adults, including 23-year-olds, and why don't we let children be children? And so we've launched this initiative, Ben Key, which is our new company, our new app, and it's just entertainment for kids. It's not overtly political. We're overtly political as a company, of course, but our content at Benkee is not. It really is just a place where kids, kids can sit down, actually enjoy entertaining content, and parents don't have to worry about having these sort of destructive ideas of the moment.

Yeah, you know, Jeremy, I've got four kids, and I say hurrah to that. Honestly, I do. I'm sick and tired of these kids getting grabbed by people who think they know what's best for what these kids should be thinking and doing. It's ridiculous. I've got to leave it there, Jeremy. You've been brilliant. Thank you very much, indeed, for rolling with the punches earlier.

You came on to talk about this, and we then brought you in to respond. to what Basimus said. I think that was important. And I really appreciate you coming on the question to respond. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay. Hillary, welcome. First time we've had you on. Bassimus have very fired up. I mean, a lot of people who are pro-Palestinian, historically, are very fired up about this. Tonight, as we came on air, this as yet unverified in terms of who's responsible, but is it, the Hamas are claiming that this is an Israeli airstrike on a hospital, it may have killed 500 people. It comes back to proportion for me. What is the correct response to the outrage of October the 7th?

I don't know what the correct response is, but I don't believe that Israel would be stupid enough to bomb a hospital the day before Biden arrived. Can I just say Israel has released a statement already saying that they warned civilians to evacuate the hospital prior to... That has been taken down by Al Jazeera already. It wasn't true. There's a lot of stuff flying around. There's a lot of people putting videos, they claim a Hamas, misfiring a rocket. Others are saying it's definitely Israeli. I think we need to wait for absolute clarity on this. What is indisputable is a hospital has been here,

and it appears hundreds and hundreds of people have died. It feels to me, with President Biden arriving tomorrow, this is a bit of a game changer. Yeah, yeah, which is why I don't believe it was deliberate, because it just seems, it just doesn't make sense that they would do that. But is it the kind of thing which you would say that if you're bombing the hell out of Gaza and this happens, is collateral damage and you have to suck it up?

I don't think Israel has ever targeted hospitals. It would always avoid hospitals if it possibly could. So, no, of course I don't think that it's good to... I mean, Israel has already targeted hospitals by saying that it was shutting off power and water, which resulted in hospitals overflowing with patients that were effectively untreatable. That was considered a war crime.

Many people have called that out as a war crime. Just to be clear, the Reuters news agency is now reporting comments from the Israeli military saying its intelligence shows a Palestinian Islamic Jihad group is responsible for the... the hospital attack, had a rocket barrage from Gaza intended for Israel, passed near the Gaza hospital and it's hit. We don't know you.

We don't know. So let's just hold back. Let's talk about what we do know, shall we? Okay, we know that the Israeli state has committed war crimes. We know that they have instituted basically a regime of collective punishment. We know now that they've used white phosphorus in civilian areas, which is considered a war crime. We know that this comes on the back of the brutalization for many, many years now of the Palestinian people. We also know that Hamas...

Hang on. Hang on. We also know... Six thousand four hundred Palestinians have died in demonstrations with Israeli groups since 2008, including 1,400 children. We also know that Hamas just perpetrated one of the worst terror attacks in modern history and the worst attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust. And so I can answer your question, Peter. Yes.

I can answer your question about proportionality because international law tells us what the answer is in relation to proportionality. It tells us that we have a right to defend us. It tells us that we have a right whilst defending ourselves to ensure that the outcome is ultimate peace. And that is what, as far as I'm concerned, we have not witnessed, even in the minute that we've been on. And if we were to ensure that the rule of law was applied, which is what I hope Joe Biden is going to be reinforcing when he visits and when Rishish Sunak visits. I hope that that's what they're going to reinforce. This is quite clearly, though, not what many people within the Israeli. government want. One Israeli minister said that he wanted to unleash a second NACBA. Do you guys

know what that means? You know what the NACBA was, right? The official position of the Israeli state for a long time has been there was no NACPA. There was no catastrophe. This didn't happen. This foundational act of violence that really led up in many ways to the conflict we're saying today. Also important to note, Israel's minister has said that it was a second NACBA. Ben-Givir says that the only thing that should enter Gaza until the hostages are released, hundreds of tons of explosives for me Israeli Air Force, not an ounce of humanitarian aid. Now, that strikes me as a statement

which doesn't care about international law. Clearly. Right? Well, Ben Gavir is appalling. But isn't that the problem Netanyahu has? He's packed this cabinet for political self-expediency. He's packed the cabinet with a bunch of right-wing headbangers. Absolutely.

There's been saying stuff like this for a long time this year. Absolutely. And that is part of the reason why this has happened. but you can't blame Israel again for what Hamas did. It's again, people are trying to justify it. But you can't blame Palestinians, all Palestinians, for what Hamas has done. That is what many actually, we've seen now, IDF soldiers, we've seen people saying this is a war with Palestinian civilians.

Do you agree that Hamas should be removed? Piss, you know my answer to that question. And it's so frustrating the way that whenever anyone comes on these shows and talks about the horrendous loss of life that has been inflicted on Palestinians for many, many years. Should Hamas be removed? There's this idea that you can ask this question, should we condone Hamas, should we condone Hamas?

No, I didn't ask you that. And what that does is basically breaks. Of course Hamas should be removed. Okay. Nobody seriously doubt that. So how do you remove them? But as soon as you respond to the question, Grace, I said, Israel has committed more crimes.

And you respond by saying, should we remove Hamas. The implication is a debate is between Hamas be removed. My question is, how do you remove them? How? What do we know about Hamas? We know that actually Netanyahu has said in the past that he wanted to strengthen Hamas because that was the only way

that he could ever get rid of the Palestinian state. He has said that outright. We now have evidence that he knew about these terror attacks. Shin Betz knew about these terror. We have evidence that Shinbet said this was an immense intelligence failure

and there was intelligence that suggested that this was going to happen. There's no way who would allow this to happen to his people. There is absolutely nowhere. That's a conspiracy theory. The head of Shin Betz, as Kahn said, this was an extraordinarily...

Let me ask you, Hillary, as a Jewish person, this has been a nightmare 10 days. Yes. But as a Palestinian person right now in Gaza, they're going through, if they're an innocent Palestinian civilian, they are going through utter hell too. Do you feel empathy for them too? I feel absolute empathy for them. And all the Jewish people I know, nobody wants Palestinian people to suffer. Nobody does.

We want to get rid of Hamas and we want our hostages back. And so to answer Piers' question, how to remove Hamas, is it going to happen by a ground war? Is that how it's going to happen? is the only way you can possibly do it, but the consequences could be disastrous. We've got to leave it there. We run out of time.

Thank you all very much indeed. That's it from me. Whatever you're up to, keep it uncensored. Good night.