Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Brian Cox

Episode Date: November 22, 2022

Tonight, on Piers Morgan Uncensored: Piers reacts to public response towards Qatar's clamp down on pro-LGBT fans. Piers questions Ash Sarkar on which country she deems morally pure enough to hold the World Cup. Piers gets uncensored with Scottish-born Succession actor Brian Cox, who tells Piers Morgan he'd like to see the United Kingdom become the United Federation. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight on Pierce Morgan Unsensored, Qatar confiscates rainbow hats and an apparent crackdown on peaceful protests. Should World Cup fans respect local laws or risk their safety for gay rights. The UK Supreme Court prepares to rule on a second referendum on Scottish independence. Succession legend Brian Cox is here to debate secession. Plus ISIS bride Shemima Begum launches another bid to return to the UK. Britain's spy chiefs say she knew exactly what she was doing. She had terrorists or a victim. From London, this is Pearz Morgan Uncensored.

Good evening, from London, and welcome to Pears Morgan Unsensored. Qatar is not a democracy. Migrant workers there are treated badly. Gay rights and women's rights are sorely lacking by Western standards. Sexual freedom is limited. These are all facts about Qatar. But there are also facts about Russia, which hosted the last World Cup, and their facts about China, which staged the Winter Olympics just nine months ago.

There are controversies almost everywhere that any major speech. sporting event takes place, unless the World Cup rotates endlessly between Switzerland, Sweden and Finland. There's always going to be a problem. Well, today's controversy is the apparent crackdown on a handful of fans wearing rainbow hats and t-shirts in support of gay rights. Wales ambassador Laura McAllister said this. When we got through security, some of the security guards said that we had to take the hat off. When I asked them why, they said because it was a banned symbol and that we weren't allowed to wear it

in the stadium and I pointed out that FIFA had made lots of comments about supporting LGBT rights in this tournament. It's a modest protest and frankly it's a cause that I obviously support. But what were they expecting? Qatar warned as far back as April that they confiscate rainbow flags, partly over concerns that local people might react angrily. And while FIFA says rainbow symbols are okay inside stadiums, they don't run the country. Qatar has opened its house to the world and for the most part all fans appear to be welcomed.

but when you're in someone else's house, it's polite to respect their rules, even if you don't agree with them. If this so-called crackdown turns nasty, I'll be the first to call it out. Right now, looks like another version of the same argument we've been having for months and, in fact, years about this Qatar World Cup.

It shouldn't be left to fans to take the heat for protests when the players themselves are bottling it over the thread of a yellow card. Home Advantage is already having a weird and wonderful impact, though, on the first ever Middle Eastern World Cup. Qatar's neighbours, Saudi Arabia, stunned the world today by beating hot favourite Argentina, leaving a certain Lyn or Messi.

Oh, looking less than chuffed. England could face Argentina the next round if they make it. They never mind respecting local customs. You might be calling them for some tactical advice. And beside of thousands of Saudi fans celebrating outside the stadium is a reminder of what this is supposed to be about. They're not Muslims or Middle Easterns or politicians.

They're just actually football fans in this scenario, celebrating like the rest of us would. Well, joining me now is political activist As Sarka, who disagrees with everything I've just said. Good evening to you. Good evening. Well, I only disagree with some of it, not all of it. So, look, here's my problem.

It's not that I think that Qatar has an exemplary record on human rights. They don't. My problem is, once you put the human rights halo on about where you stage a World Cup, I'm not sure where you end up staging it. You can't have it in Africa. You can't have it in the Middle East. You can't have it in India.

You can't have it in China. I'm not sure you could have it in America, given their draconian rules, for example, about abortion, which are very offensive to many other countries outside America. In other words, if you start to be too saintly about it, I'm not sure you can end up having a World Cup. Well, I think if you take that logic too far, it means you end up drawing a line absolutely nowhere.

And I think that both of us would agree that you draw a line somewhere and what we're disputing is where you do it. Can I ask you a really quick question? Sure. Back in the 1980s, did you support the boycott of a party? South Africa. Yes. Yes.

And can you tell me why you supported that woke up? Because I felt that apartheid South Africa was based on pure racism and discrimination. And you're going to say to me now, okay, what's the difference? No, no, no. I'm not saying what's the difference? The thing I'm saying is that at that time in the 1980s, I mean, I was barely twinkling in my father's eye at that point. So my mother tells me is that when you were outside of Barclays,

encouraging Barclays, you know, to divest from South Africa. and for people not to bank with Barclays, or when you were saying, hang on, the cricket team or the rugby team or the football team shouldn't do sporting tours in South Africa. People would go, well, hang on, there's so many other countries with terrible human rights records. Why aren't you doing this about the Soviet Union?

Why aren't you doing this about China? You can say, why aren't you doing this about this country for practically any human rights issue you care to name? So for me, there's a case for people to boycott Qatar if that's what they want to do. I also think if that's what people wanted to do, they should have started to organise it 10 years ago. I don't disagree with you.

I think if you feel that strongly about it, don't go to Qatar. My problem is once they've got the World Cup, which they were awarded 12 years ago, once everybody's there, it's a football tournament. And I find the endless politics now is just getting in the way of what should be. Did you support the Iranian players refusing to sing the national anthem and using the press conference to shine a light in the conditions in Iran? That to me is moral courage, because they're doing it to their own country. They're making a stand where there is genuine oppression of women in that country right now.

That's fine. problem is with England who basically said with the Football Association's backing, we're going to wear these arms. We're not going to boycott it. We're going to wear these armbands supporting the LGBT community. And then they get threatened with a yellow card and they all run a mile. You are not going to get me to disagree with you on that one because I thought it was frankly comical. Pathetic. Right. You have got this Iranian team who are putting their careers and their freedom, potentially even their lives in danger to stand with the protesters. I agree. You've got the England team saying, okay, well, we're not going to back down on our

and then suddenly it's like, oh no, not a sporting punitive measure. I mean, it's totally cowardly. Let me ask you a question. So you're not going to get me to disagree with you there. Okay, so we reached some points of consensus, but where would you stage a World Cup? I mean, the World Cup is the biggest sporting event in the world. Where would you be happy to see it staged? So the thing I would say is rather than doing this pick and choose of countries,

is how the decisions are made. Well, name one. Name one you can be happy for it to be at. Both me and you, I think, could probably agree that FIFA is such a corrupt organization, that there are cartels out. Artels out there going steady on, lad. Yes, that's all my question. And so the problem is, the problem is that throughout...

I've asked you a simple question. So, hear me out, throughout FIFA's history, because of that corruption, states which want to launder its image by having this proximity and association with sports have been able to do so. And it goes back way before Qatar. It goes way back before the Russian... I completely agree. It goes back to the Argentina... ...1978 World Cup.

So I think that you deal with this by going, well, let's clean up FIFA. Fine. And then you can have some standards imposed, so you can go, okay, we're... I'm only going to do it in democracies. Don't be like a politician. You're ignoring my question. No, no. This is a real question.

Give me one place in the world. You'd be happy to see the World Cup hosted. Tottenham. You're a Tottenham fan. I forgot that. I mean, that's even more heinous than anything you've discussed so far. Seriously, where would you host it?

But for me, this isn't the point about going, these are good countries, these are bad countries. My point is. My point is. You're missing. I know your points. You've made very falsely. My point is, could we actually legitimately host it in England,

given this moral criteria. England took part in the illegal evasion of Iraq in 2003. in 2003. That sparked nearly two decades of ISIS terrorism, never mind anything else, caused huge fury in the Middle East. We saw last year when we hosted the European Championships how disgusting our fans many of them behaved at the final at Wembley. I was there. They were snorting, goat, boozing, brawling, breaking with no ticket, spreading COVID. Sounds like a great weekend. It was actually, it was disgusting to watch and dangerous and unpleasant. So my point is, who are we to actually lecture other countries about laws when we need to

invade countries illegally, who will we need to lecture people about, for example, they say we can't drink beer inside stadiums when they've watched what happened at Wembley? What you make here is a good point, which is that there is no country whose hands are clean. And I think there's a more important point here, which is that we can't expect football

to do things that our government won't. When you look at the amount of Qatari money, which is sloshing around London, the sovereign wealth fund buying up Harrods, buying up billions in property. Why shouldn't they be allowed to buy Harrods? I think what we're going to end up Why shouldn't they own Paris-Sangeman football team?

So I think we're going to end up in the same position as we did with Russian money, which is when we allow regimes that we're dependent on for fossil fuels to then use our financial institutions. We get 20% of our gas from Qatar apparently. I heard on News Night last, all right? I think it's 6% according to government documents. So a large chunk of gas comes from Qatar. Would you turn that off in principle now, given the energy crisis in the country? I would say so we don't have to buy fossil fuels from Saudi Arabia or Qatar or things.

Would you turn off the gas thing? No, I would say is we need to develop an economy, which isn't reliant on imported fossil fuels. And for decades, we haven't done that. So this is my point, which is we have these huge expectations of football to take stances that our governments won't. If we don't want dirty money sloshing around the city of London, we need to tighten up our financial laws. I agree. If we don't want to be dependent on these countries, we need to focus on energy, so on greening our economy. You have for five minutes now steadfastly declined to answer my question.

Where would you host a World Cup that you consider morally pure enough to do it? To pass the out-shark-garde test. I would say here's some criteria. Here's some criteria. You don't have a system of exploited labour, which means that thousands of workers die in constructing the infrastructure which is necessary. We don't know how many workers have died.

We know the figure of 6,500 is deeply misleading because apparently that's the total number of migrant workers you've died over a 10-year period and many of them would have died from natural causes in that time. So we don't actually know. I'm not saying that maybe hundreds, maybe thousands died. I'm just saying we don't actually know the reality. The reason why we don't know the reality is because either the Katari government hasn't bothered to count or won't release the real figures.

Let me come back again to my question. The thing is, my question is this, we've got to host the World Cup somewhere. Do you agree with that? I agree with that. So where do we host it? So this is, again, what you're trying to do is... I'm just asking a simple question. I love watching your interviews, but it's getting a bit old hack.

The thing you do is you steer the interview down a blind alley and you go answer this question. Actually, in interviews where I, the interviewer, ask questions. and you either choose to answer them, what you've done the last five minutes, which is answer a completely different questions. What if I think is a stupid question? It couldn't be more pertinent. If you're a big problem,

if you don't think we should be hosting the World Cup in Qatar, where should we be hosting it? But I said there's no country with clean hands, but what you can do is develop some criteria. But I'm not saying you have to have clean hands to host a World Cup. The thing I'm saying is we can have some criteria that we all agree on. We can have some criteria that we all agree on. Ash, give me a country.

We can have criteria that we all agree. I'll take any name. You'll take any name. I gave you Tottenham. There's a hundred and sixty old countries in the world. Give you one. It gave you Tottenham. The thing I'm saying is we can have some criteria that we all agree on.

And what you can also do is have FIFA using their leverage. You don't want to ask you, let me get my problem. This is a problem. It's all very well saying it's all terrible in Qatar and it was all terrible in Russia. And it's terrible the Olympics are in China. And it's terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible. But my question is, well, where is it not terrible enough to have the thing?

I think there are countries with better human rights records than Qatar. Give me a country. Chile has better human rights records. Chile. You would have the World Cup in Chile that passed your moral smell test. Really? Have you read about Chile's human rights? Yes, I have. Really? Yeah, I think that Gabriel Borich is quite a good president. Wow, you think Chile is actually a good suggestion.

Why don't you tell me something about Chile right now, which means that that would be a terrible country, and is as bad as Qatar in terms of gay rights, in terms of workers' rights, in terms of women's rights. I named, no, I played your silly game. I played your silly game in the country. You've given me a name. And now what you're doing is, you're like, you're doing what I would.

you would have done had I said Iceland. You're going, no, no, how dare you this country is absurd? I'm not. I'm not, you didn't say Iceland. You would have been on safer territory. You've named the country in Chile, which actually has a lot of human rights problems. You know that, I know that. So, Colin, talk to me. What country do you think should be, is, makes...

I'm perfectly happy with it being held in guitar. So you think that... I actually think it's outrageous that the Middle East has never had a World Cup, given how massive football is in the middle-least. So you think it's okay for FIFA to award a World Cup, which you and I both know means billions and billions of dollars of investment of trade links. Well, Qatar has spent 200 billion on it.

So actually on this case, that's irrelevant. Knowing full well that LGBT fans will be less safe than heterosexual fans. There's been no apparent persecution of any fans so far. If there is, I'm with you. But at the moment, they said that everyone will be tolerated. And so far, it appears to be the case. Knowing the conditions for migrant workers there, because for many years during the crisis of building,

there are many countries in the world with bad conditions for migrant workers. We know that. You had the Kaffala system legally in place. It's not legally in place anymore, but the conditions haven't improved. So you're telling me you're perfectly comfortable with all of that. And instead of people going, hang on.

I didn't say that. I said, I'm perfectly comfortable with Qatar hosting the World Cup in the Middle East. Instead of FIFA. Because I think once you put the moral halo on about who can host a World Cup, as you've just discovered, you end up really struggling to find somewhere which passes the test.

But this is why I think it's a stupid question. It's a very good question. Because actually you've got to have the World Cup somewhere. Of course you think it's a good question because you like asking silly questions. I'm a football fan. I just today I'm watching Saudi Arabia, one of the minnows of world football, 50 odd in the world in football, take down the favourites to win the competition led by Lionel Messi,

one of the greatest sporting upsets in history. And just today, I just would love to celebrate. That. Look, I love football tune. It's not just because I get to see Ronaldo running around in shorts. How can you love football and support Tottenham? The two things do not go hand in hand. This is going to be an even worse debate than the ones that we've... You know what? I've got to end the debate now. It's been a good debate. It's an interesting debate. And I'm not sure we've reached much clarity. But thank you for coming in.

Ask a better question and we might. You support the wrong team. That's the problem. I'll welcome my questions. Coming next tonight, Succession star, Brian Thompson, White, Scotland. He says it's never been more ready for independence. Welcome back to Pittsburgh and Uncense. of the UK Supreme Court will rule tomorrow whether Scotland can hold a new independence referendum without the UK government's consent.

Legendary actor Brian Cox is back in the hot seat here and has been one of the fiercest and most famous advocates for breaking up the union. Brian, good easy. How are you? I'm good. Let me see, before we get into... And I actually, ironically, I don't want to break up the union but I've got another idea for the union.

Go on. United Federation. Explain. Independent countries working in a... I mean, Wales, Ireland, Scotland. and England, because I think England gets a lot of the tap end of the bath. I'm by nature an Anglophile. That's where I studied here in London, so I'm very disposed to that.

What I just believe in is the independent states. But we come together as a United Federation. Is that not what the UK is supposed to be? But it's not, because too many decisions are made on behalf of, like, this major decision that's been made in Wales about this Chinese. thing, you know, whether it's supposed to be contentious. There's a dangerous element, they say. But the Welsh are getting no say in the matter, which I think is really wrong. So I'm all for, I don't want to break up the union because it's, you know, we are the British Isles. But I want

my country, not just my country, I want Wales, Scotland and England to be independent. We also interesting. We had a lot of debate, obviously, about whether to leave the European Union. And a recent survey this week in UGov says now only 32% of Britons now think it was the right thing to do to leave. 56% think it was wrong. That's a massive shift. Absolutely. But that was so corrupt. I mean, so rotten the whole thing.

And we, Scotland, voted 62% to stay. Yes, I know. But does that not give you pause for thought about leaving a collective entity, which brings with it at least strength in numbers? Yes, but the north of England, who have been systematically ignored time and time again, have getting, you know, they're well cheesed off about the fact that they don't have enough say in their life, you know. And you think of the great things that Andy Burnham's doing in Manchester, for example. And I'm all for, I'm all for England expressing themselves in the same way that Scotland does.

And that we come together in a proper federation where we contribute. We don't do that now because the rules are all set down here. And the problem I think, if I was Scottish right now, given the utter fiasco of the way this government has behaved in the last six months alone from Boris Johnson... Well, we went on question time. We did. Equally rage. But it has been completely shameful

that we've had these three prime ministers now. Boris Johnson total shambles with all the nonsense he got up to. Liz Truss unbelievably for that short 44 days, even worse, tanking the economy, tanking the pound, tanking everything, and now we're picking up the pieces, and now Rishi Sunnak has to try and repair all the damage. But if I'm Scottish looking at all this, I'm thinking, look at these London politicians behaving like reckless casino owners with our money, and we have no real say over what these people are doing. That's my point. You've just made my point. Well, I agree, but I see that's where I have sympathy.

No, that's the whole point. But the problem is that we are, that systematically, again, and again and again, we'll have those guys and those gals making those decisions. You know, I don't know what's going to happen in the next election. I suppose that probably Labour will get in. But we need vision. We need real vision. And those creatures were just self-serviced. Who do you see out there that you think it's actually an impressive politician who might have a vision?

Well, I believe in Nicola, Sturgeon. I do. Yes, I do. I think. And they've had a lot of problems up there. Don't get me wrong. They've had a lot of problems. But I do trust Nicola. I think she's the genuine article. I mean, I'm going to say in her credit, she's always faced the music. You know, I've done many interviews with her, often quite hostile. She always comes back. She doesn't duck interviews like Boris did for so many years. She's divisive, but she certainly has what I would call leadership skills.

Exactly. And she's a great leader. And I think she will lead us. But as I say, Pearson, I really mean this. And people say, oh, you go on about in. independent Scotland. I'm interested in the countries in this country, in this kingdom, so-called United Kingdom, being separate, being individual. So completely autonomous, but they also are part of a federation. Exactly. That's exactly what I feel. But in the federation, I mean, who would have any power in that? Would it be equal power? No, it would be equal power. And there'd be, what would the Federation decide that the independent, autonomous countries couldn't decide for themselves? Well, most of the stuff domestically, they could decide for themselves. But when it comes to the interchange with each country, then they would have to come to some kind of agreement.

It won't be easy, but it never is. What do you do, for example, about currency? Because it would take you years to go back into the EU, which is still, I think, what more Scots would prefer to do. But it would take years to facilitate. The Bank of England have said if you leave the UK, you can't have the pound. So what do you do? It's practical level. What do you do? Well, it's a thing that one has to encompass. You know, you're going to have to deal with it one way or the other. But then again, we didn't go euro. We kept the pound during this whole situation. So we never made that, we never made that transition. I don't know what would happen in terms of, but then if we had a United Federation, we would come to some decision on that very subject. That's what we do. What about,

What about the border? We've had this nightmare from Brexit of Northern Ireland and what to do with it. There's this belief that if Scotland really wants independence, you've got to sort of rebuild Hadrian's wall. Are you going to be standing there with your marauding armour, fending off the invading English? No, that's... The new William Wallace. You've got a bit of Wallace. Yeah, I know. I've actually... I actually played William Wallace on television a hundred years ago. Perfect, but no, I think that... But what do you do? Again, practical level, what do you do about a border if you are a genuine...

an independent country? Well, how do you do with a border between Belgium and France? How do you deal with a Belgian between France and Spain? Would you have a physical border? You would just have the border. It would be there, you know, it would be at Hadrian's Wall, which is a natural border. Do you think, when you go up to Scotland, what's the mood about, would you say, because the polls at the moment do not see a majority in any of the polls for wanting to have an independent Scotland or indeed another referendum? So why do you believe you're nearer to it now? than you were well i just think because certainly in scotland's you know i mean it changes daily you know because there's always and the scots are notorious they contentious they can be very

contentious to scott i know because i am one i was watching peter capaldi the other night and he said the great gift of my family was family and sarcasm you know and i think that's very true sorry what was your question again no my question the mood what is it about the mood in scotland do you think which makes you think the polls are wrong. People do want to have a genuine independent country. Because we've seen what's happened recently, which has been pretty horrific, with Johnson, you know, truss very briefly.

Did somebody else come in? Well, it's now Ritchie Sunak, you know. And that party has just gone from worse to worse to worse to worse to worse. So we don't want any truck with that. We're like Blanche Dubois. We're always depending on the kindness of street. strangers. And in a way, we just need to be able to form. And also, it's to do with culturally who we are. You know, we're culturally different. We're not the same. And, you know, when I grew

up in Scotland, it was North Britain. And the great thing about Scotland, and the SMP party was regarded as a joke. But they have moved towards, you see, why I joined, why I became part of, you know, Scottish, I don't like the word nationalist. I've never liked the word but I believe in Scottish independence. Nationalists is too contentious a word for me. But when Blair made the whole fiasco, which were still suffering from in the Middle East, and he got into bed with, you know, Cheney and Rumsfeld

and the puppet as he was, really, Bush, and Halliburton and Oil, I just thought it's so obvious that this is a corrupt thing that's happening, and we should not be part of it. Now, in Scotland, we would, say, no, we're not going to do that. But of course, we have no power. We had no power to make any opinion. And I was a labor man for a long time. And I'm still a socialist in principle. But, you know, at the end of the day, that's why I think we have to come back to ourselves. It was interesting.

I mean, you brought up Iraq. I was editor of the Daily Mirror. We opposed the Iraq war. We lost the campaign, sadly. But when you look at this furority in Qatar, what do you make of it? Because my argument is that I'm not sure we are morally pure enough here to really be talking to the Qataris about how their laws are or anything else. Well, I think to a certain extent you're right. But I also think that I think what's happening, you know, let's look at Iran and let's look at what's happening in Iran where there's a sort of possible female revolution.

And it's being led by women. See, I do think the patriarchy is over. And I think we need to give these women the rights that they deserve. And we haven't done it. And I think that goes for most of the Middle Eastern nations. But that's also to do with religion. We don't go into that. But certainly these women need to be freed up in a way that they're not being freed up.

How would Logan Roy react to the patriarch you being over? He would do something else. But I also think, going back to the question of Qatar, that should have been dealt with a long time ago. I mean, Seth Blatter has already admitted it was a corrupt thing. So we know it was corrupt. But they should have dealt with it a long time ago, not now. This is not the point to deal with.

But when I had that debate before I spoke to you with Ashtaka, I mean, when you actually do try and work out where is morally pure enough to have a world country... Iceland. Right. I mean, you're pretty much in Iceland every year, right? Yeah. And even there, if we dug deep enough with all the world's journalists, you'd probably find all sorts of problems there.

Well, my point being that it's tricky, right? You can't just obviously have it in Iceland every year. Well, you could. It's not every year, it's every four years. But why shouldn't the Middle East have a World Cup? Well, no, I think they should have a World Cup, but there's a lot of stuff that's gone on. I mean, the Saudis beat Argentina.

Incredible. But then think of what the Saudis did to that journalist in Turkey. Of course. Exactly. So they're, you know... But is that any more morally repugnant than us illegally invading Iraq? Well, we haven't done that kind of thing. We haven't actually...

Well, we illegally invaded a sovereign country, and a million people done. That's what we did. I mean, I'm not sure there's a moral difference, to be honest. Yeah, but... But just because there wasn't a moral difference doesn't mean to say you have to not abandon that issue and just saying perhaps there needs to be a bit of morality in dealing with things. Let's take a short break. I want to come back. You're a Manchester United fan. I am. And you saw the Ronaldo interview?

I did. Great interview. I'm going to get your reaction to Ronaldo off the break. Welcome back to Piersboggan on Sensor. Brian Cox is still with me. Brian, you're a man United fan, the biggest star, arguably United's ever had. Christiana Ronaldo went public in this big interview with me. Let's just have a reminder. of some of the things you said. Trying to force you out, you think. Not only the coach, but the other two or three guys they are around the club.

At the senior executive level? Yes, that I felt betrayed. I don't know what's going on, but since the Sir Alex Ferguson left, I saw not evolution in the club. The progress was zero. The glazes, they don't care about the club. The empathy with the coach is not good. I'm honest.

You don't have a good relationship with it. I'm not mean good relationship. Do you think he respects you? I think you don't respect the way I should deserve. You must have been worried sick. I mean, you... I was very worried. You lost your baby son and now your baby daughters in the hospital.

Exactly. Kind of that didn't believe that something going wrong, which is make me feel bad. Really? Yes, yes. I didn't believe you. They believe you, but in the same way, they are there, Peace ever going to change the health of my family for the football.

Never. Christiana Ronaldo, that interview has now been viewed 15 million times on our YouTube channel. 45 million more views of the clips on social media. Making it one of the biggest, most watched interviews in history, certainly for sport. What did you make of it, Brian? I mean, Christiano Ronaldo, United Legend, torching really the club. What did you think? Well, I think it's, I can see where he's coming from.

But he also has to understand that it is not Alex Ferguson anymore. It's not that united. And I could see that there was probably a great sentimental movement to go back to the club where he really began, where it all began. And Alex, well, you know, there's nobody like Alex Ferguson. And Alex persuaded him. And Alex persuaded to come back. Yeah. Well, thinking, well, Alan's, well, naturally, because Alex loves the club, he's trying to keep.

the club, but the club has gone through many, so many changes in the last few years. Now, playing for Juventus and playing for Real Madrid, and their clubs have been in an incredible, they haven't stopped, they're just the top of the league. Manchester United has not been playing well over the last few years, but it's beginning to get its, it's mojo back. And I think it's unfortunate that this has happened. Is he entitled to speak out, do you think? Well, of course he's entitled to speak out. But also, one has to examine. exactly where he's coming from.

And I think he's coming from a place where he's saying, you know, I wanted to go back to a beginning. I wanted to go back to that glory days where I was a young boy. And I understand that. He said his heart rolled his head to a degree. He's heart rolled his head to a degree. And in a sense, that's going to be difficult.

And a manager who's trying to create a new club. And there's going to be a clash. And I think it's quite tragic, actually. And it's tragic for him. but it's also tragic for the club. Yeah. You know, and I think the club has to be given a break on this. I mean, I do think it's hard.

It's clearly hard because his expectation must have been huge. And especially if Alex persuaded him to go back, that must have been a huge thing. But he's been disappointed. And you can't take away his disappointment because it is not the same club that he was at all those years ago. Have you ever had a situation in your career when you've been tempted to walk up,

or have you walked out of a show, a play, a TV show, anything like that? No, no, I just, I'm clever enough to avoid going into those situations. Have you seen people do it? Yeah, I've seen people walk away, you know, and, you know, and I've understood why they do it, and it's usually complex reasons. I mean, I did it, actually. Well, yeah.

But I did it because actually, when I listened to Ronaldo, I sort of thought, yeah, it actually comes down to respect. I think it doesn't matter what the job is, if you actually feel disrespected in your workplace. That's right. And you feel you're being forced down an alley where you don't want to go down. I actually think there's a certain merit to say, actually, it's not for me. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's maybe, I mean, I'm glad the interviews had the,

the coverage that it's had in terms of, I mean, amazing, 15 million is quite incredible. But at the same time, I'm going, it's rather sad that that's the view you're going to get, because, you know, I think, and certainly with his kids and with his family, and, you know, going back to Manchester is a difficult thing. losing the baby in the tragedy with the twins and one died and one lived, that's got a really good to any human being. I think he wanted a bit more of an arm rack. Yeah, and he didn't get it.

Yeah. And that's... It may just really be as simple as that. Yeah. Talking of arm wraps, extraordinary series you've got on Channel 5, how the other half live, both rich but particularly pertinely, I thought, the poor. And you went down for this series. You went to food banks. I want to show a little clip first and ask you about this.

Well, actually... I come here every Friday so that I can feed my son over the weekend. We're working part-time and we still can't afford anything. Yeah. My electricity has gone up from 44 pound a month to 170 a month. That's astronomical. It really is hard going, it really is. We prioritise our children and go without.

I think that's... Yeah. But all adults and parents are doing just now, really isn't it? It's shocking. Her Dundee's gone pretty much full circle. getting back to the poverty I saw as a kid. It's extremely painful this stuff. You know, it's painful for anybody.

If you've got any sensibility at all, this stuff is painful. So you just correct to me there. There weren't food banks. They called community larders. Explain a distinction. Well, the difference is what people feel about food banks is loss of dignity.

And the one thing that human beings have, even when they don't have any money, is some kind of dignity, some kind of feeling of who, well-being of who they have. are and what the community Larder does is it charges the minimal but it means you're paying for something so there's a transaction not being given it you're not being given it and it's not begging because a lot of being in food banks feels like

begging and the fact that they're being constantly legitimized is really irksome to me but this community Larder run by these two amazing women who actually ran a playgroup and it was out of a playgroup they decided to go on to this and people like little Morrisons they give stuff which is coming up to itself by date that then they can tap on and the thing that you don't see in the program which is one of my angers with my editors in that anyway that's neither here no there but the thing you don't see is a guy who came in at the community a ladder it was called

Peter Leith he came in and he was frail man stick and he had a sign on his arm and I said so you do this for your family and he said no no I do it for people who can't get here there was 15 people he did it for wasn't yeah that's right he said I do it for them he said and I said really said yeah I said that's amazing he said I do sort of five a week I do different groups you know people who can't older people who can't get down for my high rises I said that's that's extraordinary and I said so what's the sign he said I'm blind I just almost fell off my chair I just thought you got quite tearful actually I did I did because I just thought the

heroism of this guy. This guy's a real hero. And I just thought, wow, you know, this man has really given something of his life to this to this horrible situation and trying to make it better for so many people in this country, in the whole of the UK, are now literally on the poverty. Yeah. And it's probably going to get worse before it gets to be better. 11% inflation, this energy crisis, the war in Ukraine, all these things conspiring to fall out from the pandemic. You saw it the sharp end. I mean, you went back to your hometown. and you were horrified by what you found. What do we do about this?

It's a big question. It's a big issue. I think, well, I think independence would help. Do you? In Scotland's case? Certainly in Scotland's case, but I also think elsewhere it would help. I mean, we'd only help if the economy was revived. That's right.

And many economists think that Scottish independence would be bad for the scholarship. No, well, I would argue with that, but I haven't got the time. to do that here. But no, I mean, I just, I feel that we're going from bad to worse. But we've, again and again and again, we have neglected our own. And it's suddenly a bad time now when everything is against us, the cost of living crisis, what have you, the war, the pandemic, what the pandemic has done. But even so, their lives haven't changed. The budget didn't help them, those people, and it never does. It never does.

It never looks to the poorest. We don't concern ourselves with that. They're an embarrassment. Let's put them over there. But now, why I wanted to do this program, was to bring it to the fore and say, these people matter. And we have to do something about it. We have to have some attitude that we haven't got that we've kind of elbowed so long for too long, actually.

And that's what I feel. It's powerful stuff, and I commend people to watch it, how the other half live on Toronto Fire. I can't let you go without asking you about succession. One of my favorite shows ever in the history of television. You've got a new series coming, coming in the new year. Can you tell me anything or do you have to shoot me? Pierce, I don't have a gun.

But if I did, you'd have to be shot. Is Logan Roy in series six? Well, there isn't series six. We're only series four. I know. That's a trick question. Oh, I don't know. You know, let's see what happens.

In other words, does he survive this series? It's for what you're doing now, so it's BB. He'll survive this series. There'll be no problem about that. There's no death. We have to... No, no, no, none of that. That's all speculation and nonsense.

No, I mean, there's a lot to be dealt with in terms of who's going to take over. And there's a lot to be dealt with in terms of the writers and where they can go with it. See, the great thing about Jesse Armstrong is he doesn't stay too long at the fair. Right. because each season has topped the last season. So we have to keep talking. And it reminds me of Aaron Salkin on the West Wing, where the first four seasons were fantastic.

Then he left and the writing collapsed and the whole thing. And that's what we don't want to happen. Would you rather end on a high? I would rather end on a high. You know, and rather... Leave them wanting more, not less. Yes. And, well, you know, there's...

I mean, no names, no pacto, but there's a show called Billions, you know, and Damien Lewis left. And they're still going on with it. Yeah, I know. But it's... Over-egging the souffle. That's what I would call.

A wee bit. How many times a day do you get told to tell people to F off? All the time. Like a dozen times a day. Oh, I was at the Scottish Baptist last night and I couldn't get away from people. And of course, as I said before,

it's the best thing to tell people. Yes. Because when you're fed up with them, you go, oh, yeah. You can say it, we'll bleep you. Oh, fuck. Don't bother me anymore. Just fuck that.

And finally, as a Scott, who do you most want to win the World Cup? England or Wales? Or somebody else? I have to reserve judgment on that. Oh, come on, Tom. Just get off the fence. No, no, I'm not. I can't do that.

Do you want England to beat, say, United States? I think I'd like to see England do well because I think he's done a great job. Southgate. Yeah, I think he's really done a great job. And there's some great players. We've got a few good asshole players in there. Yeah, Sack it. Sack.

What a player. Tremendous. I was worried about him because he got a couple of games ago, they took his legs from him. He's made a tough stuff at Arsenal. Brian, brilliant to see you. Well, coming next to debate this theory

that Harry and Megan are not a pair of shameless little grifters who ditched Britain and Royal Duty, but are in fact heroes worthy of an award from the Robert F. Kennedy Foundation. Debate that with a pack. Welcome back to Pierce, Morgan, on our census.

It's official. Harry and Megan are here. We've got it all wrong. They've been given a Human Rights Award for their heroic stand against structural racism in the British monarchy. The award is called The Ripple of Hope awarded by the Robert F. Kennedy

human rights organisation. That's the same Bobby Kennedy, he was a genuine hero. I'm joined now by Talk TV contributor, Paula Rone Adrian, Talk TV presenter, Richard Tice, political commentator, Jenny Clemen. All right, Jenny, heroes, apparently,

for trashing their families on national television, repeatedly, and they're about to do it again in the documentary series, about to do it again in Harry's book, for trashing their families with unsubstantiated smears about being cruel and racist and so on. They're heroes, and they're literally being put on the same pedestal at this Robert F. Kennedy Foundation Award tonight in December

with Vladimir Zelensky, the president of Ukraine, saving his people almost single-handedly in terms of his morale boosting from the hordes from Russia. Sorry, have I gone nuts? Is this happening? I think this is a pretty strange award. I looked it up on my way here. It's even broken you.

The MC is Alec Baldwin. Who's facing potential criminal charges after he shot somebody? Exactly. So I'd say this is a pretty strange event. It's a pretty strange award. It's got a fancy name on it. I think what this shows is two things. One, how awards don't really mean very much

because they can be quite strange and you never know who's on the panel judging you. The other thing is I think, you know, they're seen differently in America to how they're seen here. I know I've been in America. there's a lot more sympathy for Megan than there is.

Actually, it's a lot less than they used to be even there. A lot less than they used to be. I think the liberal elite like to buy them with these awards because they get huge attention. I mean, Richard, isn't this really the worst aspect of celebrity, which is they've made themselves famous with all the trashing they've been doing? And as a result, the liberal elite in America want to be associated with them because they'll get huge publicity for their events.

But it's worse than that, Piers, because actually we now know, and you identified at early doors, that the accusations that she leveled against the royal family were false. And so they'd be given an award for something that is basically false. And therefore, in my view, the award itself is fraudulent. I completely agree. And the worst thing, Paul, about this, Robert Kennedy was a genuine hero. And he fought so hard for civil rights against poverty, against the Vietnam War.

He worked alongside Dr. Martin Luther King until they both got assassinated. This is real heroism that he was up to. For this foundation, and this is one of his daughters who runs it, Kerry Kennedy, I think it's completely shameless and shameful. Can I start by saying that, yes, you're right. You have lost your mind. This is about an institution, a very renowned institution, that has decided to give an award to two people who they think are deserving. They have their own policies and procedures and practices in place, which they have considered and tested and decided that Harry and Megan

deserve this award. Now, why don't they deserve this award? manure. The whole thing. Who says they don't deserve the ward? You say they don't deserve the ward. For taking on structural racism in the royal family? That exists. Really? Where? That exists.

And where we say that it's not been proven yet, of course, we know how difficult it is to deal with the issue of racism. We know how much harder it is to deal with the fact that we're talking about an institution. She said that their son had not been made a prince because of his skin colour. Completely untrue. Absolute lie. She also said that several times a member of the royal family expressed concern about the skin colour of their child And then Harry said it happened once two years previously They couldn't even get the story right and they've never named who that person is

I've even been told by one person it wasn't even a member of the royal family Yet the whole family gets smeared as a bunch of callous racists I don't think that's actually right I think what's happened is that they have raised the issue of racism And they have made the British public they've made the institution that is the royal family, confront the issue of racism. No, they haven't. They have fraudulently accused the royal family

of being a bunch of call as racist. And there's no evidence. Where does the issue of fraud come into this? Where is the evidence of their racism? And they are saying to you, we have suffered this. What's their truth? There's either the truth or the person. There's a thing as their truth.

That's another ridiculous phrase. My truth. What's my truth? Your truth is facts. No, it's not. No, it's not lived experience. No. It's not lived experience.

You are getting so angry about this. Yes. It's how we feel, we, as I'm talking about, members of the community who have suffered racism. It's so hard to express that lived experience. It's so hard to express that truth. They haven't had any lived experience. What we're told is, is that we're being fraudulent in when we're expressing that lived racism. So why aren't you as angry as I am about these two people who've issued untrue statements about racism have not been proven?

And have now got some people in America thinking the royal family is a bunch of people. You can't have an untruth statement that's not been proven. It's their truth. And I appreciate... Their truth is meaningless. And I appreciate there's been no tribunal of that. Is that me saying, all right? It's like me saying...

I appreciate that. Me saying, I think you are a deeply unpleasant piece of work, right? I think you're a well-known cocaine abuser. You're not, as far as I'm aware. Right? But it's my truth. I believe that. Yes.

So because I believe it, that's it. You must now, unfortunately, be saddled with the reputation of being a drug abuser. No. What do you say to me? I would challenge that. It's my truth. I would challenge that. I would challenge it. It's my truth. It's my truth.

My lived experiences I think you are. I would challenge that. My lived experience is I think you are. What Harry and Meghan have done at every opportunity that they've got, they challenged it and they challenged it through the courts and they were successful. Challenge what? So in terms of, in terms of when. They've seen newspapers and stories.

They've not challenged anything about the racism. So when they've had an opportunity, as I've said, to challenge accusations that have been levered at them in the press, they've taken that. They've challenged it. So where is your challenge, Pete? My challenge is, I think they're telling a pack of lies. It's to shout abuse and to call them fraud.

No, no, it's not. I think they are frauds. Let's say we agree to disagree. It's not proven. Let's say that actually it might have happened, it might not. The last thing you do for some award ceremony for such an esteemed foundation as this is to make your decision when it hasn't been proven.

They should have waited and waited and in the horrific instance that it was proven, that's a whole different ball. Let's see the evidence. Let's move on to. Shemima Begum. So I've got quite a strong view about this. I think she knew exactly what she was doing. She went out. She had three kids with an ISIS terrorist who was chopping people's heads off. No sympathy. You made your bed with a terrorist. You're lying in it. That's it.

I just completely disagree with you. I think this is open and shut case of trafficking. She's 15 years old. We accept that the girls in Rotherham and Rochdale when they were 15 years old didn't know what was going on, didn't know what was happening to them. You cannot make decisions when you're 15 years old where you understand the enormous lifelong consequences. When I was 15 years old, I was very smart, I was doing very well at school. I'm sure that if somebody said to me,

I could run away with a rock band, I probably would have done that as well. Richard Seis. I think there's two issues here. It seems to me this is a very clever lawyer who's looking at what's the single way of getting Begham back into the country. But here's the thing.

Actually, we have to set an example and we have to say to people, this is a national security threat. And if you go overseas, to join terrorist groups, you are not going to be welcome or able to have to trust as far as I could throw. Why should I trust it? You have to set an example.

She was a 15-year-old child. She wasn't by the age. She was nearly 20. And I just add to what Jenny has said, they weren't actually believed at first. It took years and years where they are. And why should we suddenly suspend the growth that we've done? She cannot consider that to sex when you're 50 years old.

She knew exactly what her husband was doing. She was a terrorist killing people. She had been groomed peers. She had been groomed. And so her reality is very different from the... You're a very forgiving person, aren't you, Paul? You really see the best in all these people. You have to be.

Is this how we are going to grow? People ditching the dirt on our royals. That's how we grow here. That's how we grow. No, we have to set an example. Not of children. You're not coming back to this country. Set the example here.

All right. Would you let it back? Yes or no. No. You would. Yes. You would. Of course.

Can we have you run in the country, please. Thank you to my pact for tonight. That's it from me. What are you're up to? Keep it uncensored. Good night.