Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Cenk Uygur v Douglas Murray

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

On Piers Morgan Uncensored: Two of the most polarising experts on the Israel-Hamas war join Piers Morgan to debate the big ongoing questions: Has Israel committed war crimes? What is the future for Gaza and Palestine? And how do we get to peace? Cenk Uygur v Douglas Murray Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight on Piersborg, an uncensored, the Israel-Hamas war has claimed tens of thousands of lives and some chaos across the Middle East. There's no end in sight. So tonight we've invited two of our most passionate and polarizing experts back to debate the big questions. How does all this end? What is the future for Palestine and for Israel? Can there ever be peace? And since this is our final show of the year, we'll review a tumultuous 2023, name the biggest winners and biggest losers of the year, and look ahead to a thoroughly uncensored and unpredictable.

2021. Live from the News Building in London, this is Piers Morgan, uncensored. Well, good evening from London, and Merry Christmas. Just about, anyway. It's almost that special time of year when we argue about television and fall asleep in front of it. But before we all get to that place, here are just a few of the moments we argued on the television,

making sure absolutely nobody was falling asleep in front of it. Who determines, do you get to determine it? No, I'm asking you to... Who gets to determine it? I'm asking you to work out. I was coerced into this interview. You weren't coerced into this issue. Yes, I was.

Fine. If you want to just shout at me, that's your prerogative, your TV, your show. Should Hamas stay in power? It's the question. I'd rather do it on camera. No, no, no, no. Why? We'll explain why.

You're not prepared to apologize to millions of people for screwing their personal finance. You don't care about the little guy. Billions of people. You get hurt and you don't care. Why are you against nuclear weapons? Hang on. If you're not getting stressed, then why are you getting stressed?

Let me ask the question. I've done this before this job. Let me do it. I've been answering your question. You answer mine. It's actually not my job to answer your questions. Well, Britain managed to keep the same Prime Minister for an entire year, which was a modern day record.

We crowned a new king, first new monarch in my lifetime in a most spring chicken. And England were crowned winners of the moral ashes after some despicable cheating by the Australians. Boris Johnson left politics and entered this. the dustbin of history for now. Mortgages rocketed again. Everyone seemed to be on strike. Inflation drained our bank accounts as sewage drained into the seas.

And it was easier to strike gold that defined a dentist or book an appointment with your GP. Boris and Rishi lost an awful lot of text messages. This morning lost Holly and Phil. Captain Tom Moore's family lost a luxury home spa. And Justop Oil lost just about all public support. And that Rubiali's kiss became a sporting crisis. Christiano Ronaldo, the goat, followed up his exclusive interview with me by signing the biggest contract in the history of sport.

George Santos followed up his exclusive interview with me by signing up for cameo. I guess it doesn't work out for everybody. Roll Dahl's children's books were deemed so offensive. They had to be censored. Prince Harry's book, which actually was offensive, got some decided the uncensored reviews, including from me. and the Barbie movie bashed men with a big pink assault on the patriarchy,

making us all which the Hollywood writers stayed on strike. It's been a big year here on Uncensored 2. Your favourite nickname that Trump's given you so far, is it Ron de Sanctimonious or Meatball Ron? I lost my mom, then I lost my grandson, and then I lost my daughter. You stop the camera, please. A battle with cancer. And I'm crying now, God, I'm such a softie.

The main bulk of the American public support is real. Right, but not Democrat supporters and nor the young ones, 18 to 29. Do you feel a great loss that you didn't have the love of your parents? You sound like my wife. How do you feel about potentially testifying the trial that will be watched around the world? I'm the only one that has been telling the truth. Guns kill people. I think people kill people.

You're going to resign? Yes, because I cannot continue my work. Nurses are actually massively out of pocket because of inflation. I don't think that's a fair characterization of it. Well, in April, we celebrated hitting a million subscribers on YouTube in record time. It made us the fastest growing broadcast news opinion channel in the world. And we're going to need a bigger cake because in the months of follow, that number has now doubled to 2.3 million and rising fast.

I was humbled, well, almost, that my show won three major awards. And most recently, I got the broadcast journalist of a year at the Media Freedom Awards, And that meant a lot because that is a prestigious one, and it was on behalf of my brilliant team here, at Pierce Morgan Unsensored, who have, I think, displayed that we are uncensored. And we do believe in freedom of speech. And we do believe in media freedom of speech in particular.

But Uncensored now has more trophies officially than Tottenham Hotspur, and we're not slowing down. And let's not forget that there were some gravely significant world events this year two. They formed a huge part of our coverage. The world was gripped by the search for the Titan. submersible, which ended in tragedy. A mercenary launched a coup against Putin and then found out the hard way what happens if you do that. Ukraine's counteroffensive turned out to be, well, not that successful.

Having fought the invading Russians to a stalemate, Zelensky spent this year fighting to retain the world's support in their battle for freedom. A mass terrorist committed the worst attack on the Jewish people since the Holocaust, forcing Israel into a brutal war that's now killing tens of thousands of innocent people and has no end in sight. And the world said goodbye to too many legends to Barry Humphreys, Paul O'Grady, Jeff Beck, John Mottson, Lance Redding, Len Goodman, Jerry Springer, Tina Turner, Trevor Francis, Tony Bennett, Michael Parkinson, Bobby Charlton, Matthew Perry, Terry Venables, Henry Kissinger, Shane McGowan, Chanel O'Connor, Benjamin Zephaniah, and there were many more. On a brighter note,

scientists warned that AI would take all our jobs and then take over the world. But for now, we're still here, and I predict we'll still be here, next year too. Bigger, better, and even more uncensored. Speaking of which, here's what I predicted would happen in 2023. In 2023, Putin will try and fail, in my estimation, the bully Ukraine and the Western to submission. Prince Harry will once again trash his family in his attention-seeking, wo-is-mean memoir. Joe Biden and Donald Trump, with their combined 156 years, will hopefully decide to put their country. before further runs for the White House. Meanwhile, Florida Governor Ronald DeSantis

will urge Republicans to surely dump Trump and run with him. There'll be a rugby World Cup. Eurovision, unfortunately, returns, this time to the UK for the first time since 1998. Arsenal will absolutely definitely win their first Premier League title since 2004, possibly. Well, that was nearly right.

We should have won the league, and we will win the league this season. You can take it to the bank and play this back next year. Well, next year, more people will go to the polls than at any time in human history. In America, Donald Trump looks likely to either be president or in prison

or possibly both at the same time. Sadly, I see no chance of peace in Ukraine. Putin will dig in until the US election and hope that his friend Trump wins. Israel will be forced into a ceasefire eventually, but the fallout from this war will continue to royal the region with grave and unexpected consequences throughout the world.

In Britain, Labor, heading it looks like to inexorable success in the election, but it won't be as comfortable, I suspect, as everybody seems to think. If the economy recovers, maybe Rishi has a chance. And Arsenal, as I said, will win their first Premier League title since 2004, which, ironically, was when I got fired as editor of The Daily Mirror. Let's hope that history doesn't repeat itself if we do it again. I'll be stuck into all this with my pack,

my Christmas party pack were calling them this year. But first, we thought that we'd end the year. with a debate between Douglas Murray and Jank Yuga. We've been two of our most passionate and polarising experts on the Israel-Hamas war. They're bitterly opposing views. They have big brains with big answers to the big questions on this war. They've never gone head-to-head before. Tonight they do on Unsense.

Welcome back to Unsens, Sir Douglas Murray and Jank Yuga are on bitterly opposing sides of a debate on Israel's war in Gaza. Millions have watched them passionately articulate their cases on this show. but never together. So tonight, on our final show of the year, we've invited these two big brains to debate the big outstanding questions on this conflict.

How does the war end? Will Israel face repercussions for the scale of its response to October the 7th? Has it committed war crimes? What is the future, if any, for Hamas, for Gaza and for the prospects of a true Palestinian state?

Most importantly, how do we get to peace? Well, I'm now joined by the author of The War on the West, Douglas Murray and by young Turks founder, a Democratic presidential challenger. Jenk, you go. Welcome to both of you. So I've interviewed you both a lot in this war, but not together. And Jank, I know you felt the other night when you were debating other people who didn't really get into a debate, and I think that's fair enough. And what I'd like today, really, is to be almost a referee, if you like,

between you two to articulate your views and to see if we can reach any points of consensus. So in that spirit, let me start with you, Douglas. I think you're back in Israel. Is that right? Yes, I'm in Israel tonight, yeah. Today it was a sea of other stories have come out in the last few days, which have been concerning, I think.

For anyone who, like me, believes that Israel has not just a moral duty to defend itself, but has a fundamental right to do so after what happened on October the 7th. And I've said that clearly from the start. It's always been for me the issue of proportionate. And it seems that in the last few days, there have been a number of incidents which really question whether Israel is being

precise as it says it is or indiscriminate. And I would cite the killing of the three hostages. I would cite the killing of the two women outside the Catholic Church. I would cite the President of the United States saying that they're using indiscriminate bombing and so on. Do you, Douglas, notwithstanding your full-throttle support of Israel, does anything that's been happening make you think Israel needs to execute this war differently? No, and I think that most of the people who think they know how to execute this war have never executed a war. Indeed, most people who think they know how the IDF should be running this conflict have never been near a conflict.

I'm in Israel tonight, I was in Gaza again yesterday, and the examples that you give, by the way, Piers, I don't see why they show any need to prosecute the war itself differently. I mean, just to take one of them, the first example you give, the absolutely tragic, awful shooting of these three hostages as they were coming out. But, you know, some of the spin that's been put on that in the world, apart from the glee, of course, that Israel's enemies can't help expressing. Some of the spin on that is almost as if it shows the IDF is a sort of so brutal

that it even kills Hamas hostages who are Israeli. I just think this is another example of the international media and others, just having this astounding lack of empathy for the Israeli people. Can you imagine what it was like for those soldiers who were in Gaza, knowing that at any point there were snipers, there are booby traps everywhere, people coming out of tunnels that they've built at British and American taxpayer expenses and attacking them?

Can you imagine what it was like for the soldiers who, in that terrible moment, made the life-changing mistake of shooting three people who turned out to be Hamas hostages. But why would they, on that, on that, why would they shoot anyone who was shirtless and waving an SOS flag? I mean, why would, whoever they were, whether they were Israeli hostages

or whether they thought they were Palestinians, why would anyone shoot anyone who comes out like that? That's my point. That'll be a matter for the inquiry. into it. But, you know, look, it's hardly as if they'd have wanted to have done that. What this demonstrates is, in this incredibly close conflict, in a heavily built up area, people coming out from all sides, firing, shooting, detonating, people make mistakes. Of course they do. That's just a human reality of war, horrible as it is. I don't think it shows in any way that Israel is

prosecuting this war wrongly. As for the main issue of the war, the main issue of the war is to destroy Hamas. No Israeli of left or right or center believes anymore after October the 7th they can live beside Hamas. Hamas has been given the statelet of Gaza, it was given it in 2006, voted

in, then killed their fellow Palestinians in a coup, killed fatten rivals, and they've run the Gaza for almost 18 years now, and they've produced a new generation of people whose main aim in life, it seems, according to their textbooks and their classes,

is to regard Jews as enemies who should be killed. This is just an unbelievable waste, a waste of life on every side. But apart from anything else, a waste of those Palestinian lives of children who grew up under Hamas' rule, if you can call it that, who have been indoctrinated into becoming sociopaths by a psychopathic terror organization, Hamas. All right, Jen, you've been listening to that. Is there anything that Douglas said that you agree with?

No, nothing. Not even about the way Hamas has presided over Gaza in the last 18 years. Yeah. So that's a weapon of mass distraction. It's Israel doing genocide on the Palestinians right now. And there's IDF soldiers singing in video that the IDF has confirmed about how they're going to wipe out the seat of Amalek. That is a verse in the old Hebrew Bible that talks about exterminating

Amalek. So they're talking about genocide against Palestinians. Benjamin Netanyahu has also talked about wiping out Amalek. These are open calls for genocide. What I find stunning, you know, Douglas mentioned stunning lack of empathy. There's 20,000 dead people in Palestine right now in Gaza. Over 8,000 of them are children. When 36 Israeli children were killed by Hamas, the world cried out, and I was brokenhearted over it. 36 poor kids dead in Israel. Now there's over 8,000 dead kids in Gaza. You want to talk about a stunning lack of empathy.

6,400 women slaughtered in Gaza. You want to talk about terrorism. They're dropping unguided bombs, 2,000-pound bombs. Every one of those bombs is an act of terrorism. and the stunning lack of empathy towards Palestinian lives is disgusting. But I want to be clear, it is not shared by all Israelis.

The dad of one of the hostages who was killed went on Israeli television and said, stop killing them. And he didn't mean the hostages. He meant the Palestinians. All right, but Jake, let me just jump in. Before I go back to the judge's response to this. Let me reply to that, Pierce.

Yeah, I will let you reply to that. On this issue of genocide, do you accept, though, that Hamas's whole, raise on debt when it comes to Israel is genocide. They want to eradicate Israel and kill as many Jews as they can. They've been no secret

of this. Yeah. So this is really important. So I have no sympathy for Hamas. So I am not interested in defending Hamas. I think that's nothing but a distraction. Because right now they're not fighting Hamas. They're just killing

Palestinian civilians. Well, they're also killing Hamas terrorists. They are. I mean, they're killing thousands of them. Barely. No, no, wait a minute. Barely. But let's go to your main point, okay? So the main point is, well, Hamas threatens X, Y, and Z and has killed 1,200 people on October 7. So that is why we have to all worry about what Hamas might, might, might, might do in regards to trying to hold on, hold on, let me finish the point. Let me finish the point. Let me finish the point at what they might, might do if they had infinite power, the kind of power that Israel has. Meanwhile, Israel is actually

truly doing the genocide, is actually preventing a Palestinian state and saying you are not allowed to exist. And if you dare try to exist, we'll kill 20,000 of your children and women. All right. Douglass, respond to that. Several things. First of all, anyone who uses the term genocide in this context simply doesn't know what they're talking about, a ways of a malevolent actor. I don't know if Mr. Uyghur's traveled at all in his life, how far he's traveled, how many conflicts he's seen. But I'd have guessed none and you clearly know nothing about this particular conflict and you've obviously seen none of it. The genocide that you describe is such a smear and a libel against the Jewish state.

If Israel wanted to commit genocide, I'm sure it could, but it doesn't. It doesn't remotely want to. And people like you and other pro-Palestinian propagandists have spent years claiming that Israel is committing genocide in the Gaza. By the way, the weirdest thing about this claim is that the population of the Gaza has grown by a million in the last 15 or so years. So if Israel was trying to carry out a genocide, it's either the worst perpetrator of genocide ever or uniquely poor at performing that task. None of the stats support that ridiculous claim.

It's such a weird smear and a libel of Israel. Secondly, of course, you've just rattled off Hamas figures, as every one of your kind always does. Thirdly, you said that the world cried... A world cried, you said, the people like you who cover for the Palestinian extremists. You said that the world cried out for the 36 Israeli dead children. No, they didn't.

And you know that very well. You know that very well. If you put up a poster to a missing dog in any Western city, that poster stays up. In city after city in America, posters of abducted Jewish children, including a 10-month-year-old baby, were put up and were ripped down

by people who have been indoctrinated into hate of Jews. nobody would rip down the poster of a missing dog but from Dublin to Berkeley they ripped down posters of abducted Jewish children so no I don't think there was very much care for that around the world Let me put this to you, let me make two other very quick points Firstly you said what Hamas might do As if it was some kind of hypothetical

Hamas showed what they do what they want to do It showed it on October the 7th and its leadership As I'm sure you very well know said that they would like to repeat that again and again until they have got rid of every Jew. So I don't know. I would trust Hamas's word on that rather than your interpretation of what you think they mean when they say that and your generous interpretation of what you think that means. And finally, as for preventing a Palestinian state, it is nonsense that the Israelis have prevented a Palestinian state. They gave the Gazans a Palestinian state in 2015.

They gave them a Palestinian state in 2005 when every Jewish person was ripped from their homes in the Gaza by IDF soldiers. And the Palestinian people were given a state. And what did they do? They voted in Hamas, who then killed their fellow Palestinians, never had another election, and used all the billions of dollars of taxpayer funds from the U.S., UK and Europe to build terror tunnels and to enrich themselves so they could live the life of luxury in Qatar. Again and again, the reason there is not a Palestinian state is because the Palestinian leadership doesn't want one.

Didn't want one in 1947, it preferred war, and it doesn't want one now. Douglas, let me put one point to you raised by Queen Rainer of Jordan in a new piece for, I think it was the Washington Post. In just over two months, she said Israel's turned Gaza into a hellscape. At least 8,000 children have died more than the death tolls of Pearl Harbor, September the 11th and Hurricane Katrina combined. These are gigantic and horrendous numbers of children being killed. Do you not have any qualms about the number of children being killed?

I mean, does it not suggest that Israel... I want to hear Queen Rania talking about this as much as I want to hear Queen Camilla or Meghan Markle. I mean, it's pathetic. Queen Rania is holding on to her own position in Jordan the only piece of advice she has for anyone is how to marry a king. Queen Rania herself is just playing a very nasty political game. If she cared at all, and I would pose this to all the states in the region,

if Jordan cared at all for the Palestinian people, they would take them in. They would take them in. They don't want them. If the Egyptians wanted them, they'd take them in, but they don't. Do you know why? Because every country that takes in the Palestinians gets terror. It happened in Egypt. It happened in Jordan.

It happened in Syria. It happened in Lebanon. It happened in Tunisia. On and on. That's why these people don't really care about their fellow Muslims. They just care about hating Jews. All right. Jank, your response. Yeah. So you asked if he cared about 8,000 dead babies. And his answer was no. Queen Rania bothers me. So a complete non-answer. Because he doesn't care. He doesn't think that Palestinians' lives are worth anything. He just called them all terrorists. Nice. You can put that word's words into my mouth. There you go. So hold on. I let you talk for a long time. So why don't you shut up for a second? So we've got all of these dead babies. We've got all of these dead babies that this monster doesn't care about. He says keep bombing them. A former intelligence officer said in the Israeli press, they're using AI in a program called the gospel where he said it's basically a mass assassination factory. and we could all see it with our own eyes.

And you can do all the propaganda you want. No one believes your nonsense. We see all the dead women. We see all the dead children. Now Israel has killed 20 times the number of civilians that Hamas killed. So would I want Hamas in charge of Israel? Never, never. I don't trust them and I don't believe that they would be benign.

So all of this propaganda about, oh, like, oh, people don't mind Hamas. No, we mind Hamas. We mind. We terribly what happened on Afghanistan. October 7th. And I'm now showing you different Israelis that have said that it's a problem. And I want peace and security for both Israel and Palestine. And this does not get Israel any peace or security. But when you ask the other side, do you mind tens of thousands of civilians that have been murdered, incinerated alive, body parts picked out of rubble, little babies

killed over and over again in what is that even the Israeli prime minister. is referring to as Amalak, meaning an extermination of the Palestinian people. And I must clarify the difference between a genocide and a Holocaust. A genocide is when you target a specific people and kill a lot of civilians. Sir Benizza, where 6,000 people were killed, was considered a genocide. So it doesn't mean you try to murder every single person in that race. That is a Holocaust. Let me reply.

Let me reply. One second. One second. Before I go to Douglas, Jane, one question. you want to get rid of Hamas too, as does Douglas, as do I. If you don't do it the way that Israel is currently doing it, given that they live amongst the population, how else do you do it?

Yeah, there's an excellent way to do it, and there's the right way to do it. So let me explain. So war, this guy talks about, oh, I love war. I go to all the conflict zones, so by watching it and ruling on for more death, I know something about conflict. You know nothing. So here's what reality is. war gets you more war but peace actually works so when israel did a peace deal with egypt

not only were the egyptians safe but the israelis became safer that peace deal has held for decade after decade so how do you do a peace deal in this case what you do is you make uh you do the two state solution now and you do it with the palisinian authority in the west bank and if you then have a palisinian state the palisinian authority would have the credibility to drive out hamas from Gaza. That is a realistic plan for both peace, security for Israel and the Palestinians and driving out Hamas.

The idea that you're going to kill 20,000 more civilians, 200,000 more civilians in Gaza and it's going to drive out Hamas. Let me answer that. Let me answer that. Let Dougs respond to that. First of all, first of all, I mean, your other guest, I mean,

I don't know what kind of a creature he is. He's a kind of low-grade thug as far as I can see. He's listened to nothing. I've said. Yeah, yeah, I know, because I'm Muslims. That's what you call all. I'm a Muslim. I'll tell you. No, it's not that at all. I just think that you're a very, I think you're just a very low-end racist. But anyway, let me just get onto it. You say, first of all, you say, I don't care about the death of Palestinian children. Yes, I do care. I care very deeply about it. But I also know that the responsibility for their deaths lies on Hamas, which has misgoverned their society for the last

16 years, and now has been leading the country into being in a war with Israel. So yes, it's on Hamas, this. As for seeing wars, by the... I just mentioned about seeing wars, because as far as I can see, you're very ill-traveled, as well as rather ill-lettered and ill-spoken. And I mention that I cover wars and go to wars, because I happen to think myself that it's worth seeing things with your own eyes, including things that you don't particularly like, but you report the truth. I don't know if you ever even leave your own bedroom.

And I can tell already that you don't, because you've already said something that demonstrates, you know, nothing about this conflict. You have just demonstrated it in the following terms. You said that this is... why we need to push for a two-state solution and give legitimacy to the Palestinian Authority. I'll tell you something you don't know because I guess you spent no time in the West Bank, have you? I'll tell you something you probably don't know. The Palestinian Authority,

Fattah, celebrated the 7th of October massacres. I'll give you another fact which demonstrates you know nothing about this and clearly haven't ever visited any Palestinians in the West Bank as I have. If there was an election tomorrow in the West Bank, the reason why there isn't one, is because if there was an election tomorrow in the West Bank, Hamas would win. So your idea of a two-state solution, I'm afraid, you are so out of date, and you really should leave your bedroom. Because in this region, nobody thinks that there is a two-state solution on the table because there is not a viable negotiating partner.

But I just want to make one other main point. You have gone on and on tonight throwing accusations out against the Jewish state, against me. It's the sort of thing you do. I know you're a sort of online pugilist. and think you can run for office, and good luck with that. But I'd just like to point out that you only really get animated if the Jews are involved. And I can tell that for the following reason.

I mean, your surname's Uyghur, isn't it? One million Uyghur Muslims in China have been putting concentration camps in the last decade. And, you know, people of your ilk never really care about that, do you? Because it's not the Jews doing it. It's a Chinese Communist Party. At the moment, one million people who are in Pakistan at the moment.

who are your fellow Muslims and who happen to be Afghan, and I don't think you care about them, do you? One million Afghans are currently being forcibly deported from Pakistan to Afghanistan. You don't care about that. You're not riled up about that. You're not riled up about what the jungle weed are currently doing in Sudan, where thousands and thousands of people are being attacked by the Islamist militia there. You don't care about any of that.

You get exercised and you rile up what little base you have of malcontents because you're riled up when the Jews. do anything. All right, Jen. It's perfectly obvious. Okay. Jen, your response. Yeah.

Okay, first of all, my last name is Yugar. We're named after the Uyghur Turks in China. And have we talked about that on the Young Turks? Yes. Yes, we've talked about it endlessly, but you don't know that, and you don't watch the show. You just make things up. Nobody does want your show. Well, again, you're interrupting me when I was kind enough to let you go on with your mad ramblings.

So how nobody watches the show, we have 5 billion views a year. I don't know what piddling out if you're on or what little substack or whatever the hell you write on. So the reason we're incredibly popular is we fight for all. We fight for shot up. We fight for all innocent civilians. So yes, we've covered all of those conflicts. Yes, I'm against fundamentalist Islam. No question about it.

I'm against fundamentalist religions of all kind. In terms of every right-wing supporter of Israel, their only tactic is, hey, don't look at the 8,000 murdered children. Don't look at the 6,400 murdered women. Don't look at the fact that all the hospitals in northern Gaza have been shut down. Don't look at the fact that four out of five people in northern Gaza are starving right now, and half the people in southern Gaza are starving. Instead, anti-Semite, anti-Semite. Now, wait a minute, I just told you how much I want peace of security for Israel.

how much I hated what happened on October 7th. What you don't know is I started the Young Turks with two Jewish friends. And so the whole program is both Jews and Muslims. You know nothing. You know nothing. I have Jewish family and friends. Why in the war gods, as they go to Israel, I want them to be safe. Okay.

So I have shown empathy for all civilians throughout everything I have ever done. But all you have is hatred. Oh, he's an anti-Semite. Kill the Muslims. Kill the Palestinians. And once we kill them, by the way, we'll blame. them for it. We had to, Israel had to murder all those

babies in Palestine because Hamas made us do it. Then why are you listening to Hamas? Why are you letting Hamas drive your agenda? Well, you don't have to kill those civilians. It's a mass assassination factory. We are

nine weeks into this war. 20,000 people according to the Hamas-run health authority, but the numbers have not been questioned by other official bodies. 20,000 people so far have died on the Palestinian side. And it is estimated from the IDF that they say they've killed 7,000 or so Hamas terrorists. That number's not been verified. But if you take that as being accurate, that's 20% of the estimated number of Hamas terrorists that exist. Therefore, there's 80%

still to be eliminated, which at this rate would take another 8 to 10 months and would lead to potentially several hundred thousand civilians being killed. And pretty much all of Gaza being obliterated with nowhere for the two million who've been displaced to go back to. So my question for you is, if this is the game plan by Israel to finish Hamas right to the last terrorist, what is left after that? They talk about the day after the war. What does it look like? Who runs Gaza? Where do these people go back to live? In other words, what actually happens if Israel is successful, however long it takes, in eliminating Hamas? Well, first of all, I just have to add, you quite rightly said it appears that the figures you gave are Hamas figures, and we do have to treat them with more than a grain of salt.

As for, again, my counterpart here goes on about the deliberate genocide of children and women. I mean, I know this is the sort of thing I think you do. You sort of claim that there are bombs being deliberately dropped on children and old women. Why would Israel want to drop bombs deliberately on children or old women? I mean, it's just a shame you don't get out and see anything. The Israelis do an incredibly careful campaign before bombings to try to make sure that civilians are warned to leave areas that are about to be attacked.

Everybody knows that. Everybody in the region knows that. It's a shame that that fact hasn't got to you. As it happens, the whole question you raised, peers, is a very, very complex one. I don't have the answer. I don't believe anyone does have the answer about the day after. Nobody wants to rule the Gaza.

The Israelis used to be in charge of it. They left, as I say, in 2005 to the last Jew. They were all taken out of their houses. Israel doesn't want to rule the Gaza. Now, who can rule the Gaza? Hamas clearly cannot because they set it up as a terrorist state-led. Can some fat-like authority be encouraged to take it over? Possibly.

Possibly. I spoke to one Palestinian analyst earlier today who said that actually, just as I said earlier, that an election in the West Bank today would elect Hamas, perhaps an election tomorrow, if it was to happen, and I'm not sure if that's going to be a good idea, might even actually elect not Hamas Palestinians to power, but it's a heck of a risk. The reality is that the only solution to Gaza that anyone can see, I can imagine, is that it has to be a solution which involves multiple players in the region. The question of the Gaza is a very complex question.

It used to be ruled by Egypt, used to be run by Egypt. Can Egypt have a role? In my view, it has to have a role. Can Jordan be involved? In my view, yes, it has to have a role. Can the Gulf states, including those who've been pumping money to Hamas, have some kind of role? Yes, I would hope so. It cannot be Israel's task alone to deal with the question of the Gaza.

It has to involve multiple players in the region, but there's one kicker to them. which is that none of the Arabs in this region that I'm sitting in care a jot about the Palestinians. They really do not. If they did for all of their talk, they would have done something. They would not have decided to keep the Palestinians out as they have in country after country. Queen Rania can invite the Gazans into Jordan. She can invite the West Bank Palestinians into Jordan. She doesn't. Egypt could open its border with Gaza. It doesn't. The Egyptian border with Gaza is firmer and more closely locked than the Israeli ones. There are Gaza and workers who, until the atrocities of October the 7th, every day,

were going through the Eretz crossings and others to work in Israel and to earn a decent living. Were there workers going in daily into Egypt? No, because the Egyptians don't want Palestinians in their country. So the only solution is a regional one, but I'm afraid in this region, there are very few people who care about the Palestinians. Okay, Douglas, you had the first word, Jen. I'll give you the last one. I want to preface it by saying that it's been reported today,

and this has come from Hamas's statements, apparently, picked up by newspapers in America, that there was a new hostage deal offered, which was that Hamas were asked, will you release the 40 women and children? You still have captive in return for a week-long ceasefire, and they apparently have rejected. that. So I think that when we talk about behavior on both sides, the mere fact that there are still 40 women and children in the clutches of Hamas and God knows what they're doing to those poor women, that should be noted too. There are still innocent people being held in the most appalling conditions by Hamas. And that is also motivating Israel's response. But I'll give you the last word, Jane.

Yeah. So I wish to God that they would release those women and children. I think it's immoral to keep them. It's wrong in every way. But Israel kills more than 40 women and children every single day, all completely innocent. Look, even if you take IDF's outlandish numbers of 7,000 Hamas fighters killed, that means their kill ratio of civilians to fighters is still worse than Hamas's. And they have now killed 20 times the number of civilians that Hamas has killed. So when Douglas talks about driving them into Egypt or Jordan, that's just ethnic cleansing.

They live in Gaza. So if you push them out and they say, well, you're all Arabs anyway. Why don't you just go live somewhere else in the region? That's the definition of ethnic cleansing. That is outrageous. And he says it with blithely, with no concern, because Palestinian lives don't matter. And you ask them, hey, how many Palestinians can you possibly kill? And he never answered the question.

So the reality is you cannot kill your way out of this conflict. The more that they killed, the more, what do you think that the Palestinians are going to feel? What would you feel if your family was butchered, if their heads were crushed by a bomb that was dropped on a building, if they were lit on fire by the bombs that were dropped? What would you do? You'd fight back the rest of your life. And then they are permanently occupied. Now, now Netanyahu says he was proud that he prevented.

a Palestinian state and that he will continue to prevent a Palestinian state. He is not a partner for peace or he profits from war. His whole career is about perpetuating war, not just to murder Palestinians, but it keeps Israel unsafe for eternity. So the whole point of Israel is to be a safe haven for oppressed Jews throughout the world. It cannot be a safe haven as long as you're imprisoning 5 million Palestinians and saying, we are never, ever going to let you go. And if you ever dare oppose us,

we will kill your women and children. They're not in prison. They're not in prison. It's not what Israel was meant to do. I urge you again. I urge you again, Chank. Leave your bedroom sometime and come to this region and see it for yourself.

Hey, I thought I was supposed to get the last word. This idiot is talking about bedrooms. The Palestinians in the West Bank are not in a prison. Douglas, why don't you admit you don't care about dead Palestinian babies? dead Palestinian women because you don't mind it. Israel, Israel, Israel, you say right or wrong, no matter how many people they have murdered,

no matter how many kids they have crushed the death, you don't care because you don't care about human beings. All you want is some sort of war-mindering, Israeli state, U.S. state, etc. All right, listen, I'm going to wrap it up. I'm going to say, listen, I think we actually had a very, you're super evil. You don't mind a death. of all those thousands of people.

Evil war-mongering. Jake, let's not descend into this. I actually think, with a few exceptions, we had a good debate there, right? I understand passions run high. I think it's a shame, whenever I do these debates, when it gets ad hominem

in the way that it has occasionally tonight, but I do think we've also had some really smart takes from both sides about what is going on and where we need to get to. I think we can all agree on one thing. We all want to end up with peace here somehow. It's going to be horrendously difficult.

We do. It's very complicated. But I do think... I don't actually think, knowing both of you as I do, I don't believe the charge that neither of you care is true. I think you do care about all the lies that are being lost.

And I think that we should start from an acceptance that we all care and then try and be more constructive. But listen, I thank you both for joining me. I wish you both a Merry Christmas. I'll see you both, no doubt, in the new year. Merry Christmas to you, Peter. I thank you both for your regular contributions to the show, particularly since this war started,

because I really do appreciate it. And I want to hear both sides, and I think you both articulate your cases extremely powerfully. So thank you both very much. Thank you. Well, Unsensor next. I'm joined by my Christmas pack to look back at 2023's winners and losers.

Welcome back to Unsensor. I'm joined by my Christmas party pack. Talk to your contributor to Paula Ryan Adrian, the former newspaper, and Emily Sheffield, and the so-called comedian James Barr. Welcome to all three of you. Right, Emily, give me your winner of the year.

Okay, my winner of the year, is Keir Starmer because he has bought back, you know, wait, he's brought back the Labour Party, I can't deny, he's brought the Labour Party back from the brink, and he's done this amazingly, kept 20% ahead in the polls without saying of anything, of any note, power or consequence. He still don't know what he's going to do when he gets to power. You know what? That is smart politics. It is smart politics. If you don't need to, don't do it.

It is smart politics, but I just want to make that clear. He has said nothing of note, nothing of power. His speech is really boring. He looks to me more and more like a guy who is ready to run the country. Yes. And I think the public have been buying into that. And so Rishi Stenag has a lot of work.

Yeah, but I just got to bring something up. You say that, and I do agree with you, but actually his personal ratings are falling. He is currently at minus 20 or 22%. Now, listen, Rissy's on minus 70. But Blair, a year ahead of getting to power, was plus 16. Cameron was plus 16. We're not in a Blair situation.

Yes, but Cameron was plus 16. So this is where, and you said earlier, there might be a bit of a worry when we get to the next election. I don't think it's all done. I don't think it's done, either. Okay, James, your winner of a year. It's Taylor Swift because she's an... I love Taylor Swift.

Queen of emotions, a billionaire. I think she's a phenomenon at Taylor Swift. I think she's... You and I disagree about people like Madonna, because I think that Taylor Swift, to me, she is a fantastic role model. I've got a 12-year-old girl daughter who loves Taylor Swift, right? I love her loving Taylor Swift in a way I could never, ever want her to like someone like Madonna.

Yeah, but that's only because Madonna was mean to you once. If Taylor Swift was mean to you, would she still like her? No, she wasn't. No, I don't mind people being mean to me. I wouldn't have you on the show, I thought. Paula, your winner of the year. Yeah, so my winner of the year is Noir Cringle. And I know how much you love inclusivity. I know how much you love to be...

Come on, tell it to me. To represent... Explain for those who don't know what it is. So Noir Quingle is something. that has just been introduced in the UK in England and it's about a black father Christmas. So anyone can come along and see Black Father Christmas and Mrs Claus.

It's something that has been around in the US for quite a while and finally it's come over here because of course children don't see colour, they don't see race. It's an adult construct. So why make a thing all black then? Why not? But why call it noir cringle?

If they don't see race, Why make them think about race? Why not? Well, you're making the think about it. What they're doing is they're having to advertise the fact that this exists, and that's a good thing. Is it? Is it?

Because hopefully, in the future, we won't need, we won't need it. Listen, I don't think against it personally. But you're selling it as something that makes children not think about race when in fact it's having the opposite effect. I'm selling it on the basis that it involves everybody. And hopefully we're going to have a drag story, Santa Claus. Do you think? Oh, definitely.

So if I have a, if I have a, if I have a. Santa basically is drag anyway. Those shopping malls are kind of doing drag, aren't they? Yeah. Well, I'm going to have a Nelson Mandela tribute show, and they're all going to be white. I mean, I'm not sure about that. I didn't think you would be.

Let me explain to you why. Nelson Mandela. It never works the other way. It's unfortunate. You can't change black icons for white people. Are we saying that Santa Claus is white? Is that a fact, is that I can tell you as a fact that Nelson Mandela is off color?

I can't tell you as a fact that Santa Claus isn't black. I actually have nothing against your choice. Let's go to the losers of you. Biggest loser, James. I'm afraid it is Rishi Sunak. Rishi Sunak is my biggest loser. Many reasons. It could be because he's obsessed with boats.

It could be because he's obsessed with women, whether they have a penis or not. Does somebody say pegging? Women don't have penises. But my actual reason for calling him Loser of the Year is this terrible failed TikTok transition that he attempted. Shout out to Blythe, by the way,

and the people of Blythe. It's just so embarrassing, isn't it? It's so embarrassing. I think politicians should probably stay off TikTok. Emily, you're a loser over you? It's got to be Lewis Rubiali's for that force kiss. I'm sorry, this was like women winning the World Cups, a fantastic team, fantastic.

We've seen England lose, but a fantastic match. And then this man just comes up and he grabs her head. So sorry, it wasn't just a kiss. He grabs either side of the head and goes like that. Honestly, the fact she didn't headbutt him or punch him because I definitely would have done was all credit to Hermosa. was then, as far as I could work out, sort of forced to say that it was like...

Well, let's be honest. They all thought it was funny until they saw the public reaction was he shouldn't have done it. And then they all turned on it. They were all dancing on the bus and chanting and showing videos. We all know what happened then. It was wrong. Let's not pretend they didn't think it was funny at the time. They didn't think it was funny at the time.

As always in our society, playing the victim is a better position in our victimhood society. Call her under a rung. Paula, your loser of a year, please. My loser of year, Thames Water. Yeah. 16 days worth of raw sewage going into Buckinghamshire River. We've got 122 days of an Oxfordshire River. You know I swim in the River Thames when I can and when it's safe to do so.

So, I mean, come on, guys. What's happening? Raw sewage in our rivers and seas. Yeah. Thank you to my pack. You've been great this year. I've enjoyed our jostling. And I'll see you in the new year.

We'll be back on January the 8th. And a little treat for you. From the week before I come back, Douglas Murray, you heard earlier, he will be stepping into my shoes for a week from January the 4th of the Gies. So tune in to that. He'll be doing Pierce Morgan Unsensored. And from Christmas Day for a week, we have the Christmas ding-dongs, which is what it says on the tin.

It's all the ding-dongs on the show. So you can have a lot of fun through the festive period with the ding-dongs, then probably some more ding-dongs with Douglas, and then I'll be back for some massive ding-dongs on January the 8. That's it. Keep it unscensis. Merry Christmas and thank you to all our viewers because without you we literally don't have a show So thank you and we appreciate it. See you on the new year