Piers Morgan Uncensored: Delilah, Return of Liz Truss and Sam Smith
00:00Tonight, Peasbork and a sense of Wales rugby bands a legendary anthem Delilahover claims it normalises violence against women.Does that mean we now cancel violent television, violent movies, operas, even Shakespeare?We'll debate that.At first, Boris Johnson went on manoeuvres.Now, Lettis Liz Truss launches the most unwanted comeback in political history.Our Britain's zombie ex-prime ministers undermining Richie Soon-Ex government.Thus, Sam Smith shocks.
00:28Well, he's always shocking.I don't know why it's even a news story,but he's shocked again at the Grammysby dressing up as Satan.Is he, they, then,bravely pushing the boundaries of artor just the boundaries of taste?We'll debate that.
00:47Live from London,this is Pearce Morgan Uncensored.Good evening from London.Welcome to Peers Morgan Unsensored.There are very few sights and soundsmore iconic in British sportthan Welsh rugby fans.Lusterly bellowing out Delilah.
01:02It's a legendary 19.60s ballot by the iconic Welsh crooner Tom Jones.And here's the man himself, leading a rousing chorus of it at Wembleyfor the England v Wales game in 1999.Well, spine-stingling stuff, like many sporting anthems,there's nothing much to do with sport.It's a stirring sing-along anthem,which every supporter knows the words too.
01:53It gets their pulses racing.It raises the roof.It brings fans together.But does it incite violence?Well, the Welsh Rubber Union thinks so.It's just banned the song from the official choir.song list ahead of the Six Nations opening fixtures, which just occurred this weekend.And a victory for common sense, and it was their only victory this weekend, the Welsh fans
02:12completely ignored it.Well, it didn't help their play.Wales got walloped by Ireland in that opening game on Saturday.Some suggested they should have spent more time concentrating on the rugby, a little less timeon the virtue signalling.Well, the Wales winger, Louis Rezamet, tweeted all the things they need to do, and they do thatfirst.He's got a point, hasn't he?
02:42The Welsh Rugby Union said in a statement that the song is problematic.that wonderful new word, that scourge of our society, problematic.Everything is problematic to somebody. Trust me. Everything.But problematic and upsetting to some supporters because of its subject matter.And it's true, the lyrics to Delilah are pretty full on.They're about a jealous lover avenging his unfaithful concubine.She stood there laughing.I took my life in my hand and she laughed no more.
03:11We can all agree that's not the way to settle the real domestic dispute,but as any real person in the 55-year history of the songever seriously interpreted it as an instruction manual?Does anyone think it has anything to do with domestic violence?The song's just theatre.It's a thespian murder ballad,telling a fictional story about people who don't exist.If we have to ban Delilah, where does that stop?
03:35Johnny Cash shot a man in Reno,as to watch him die.That wasn't very nice.Bob Marley shot a sheriff.That was definitely problematic.and don't even dare think about Britney Spears singing Hit Me Baby One More Time.Happy Valley is the biggest show on British TV at the moment.It features a lot of violence against women, which it uses as part of its masterful and hard-hitting storytelling.
03:58Movies are loaded with exaggerated violence against men, women and, well, pretty much everybody.Then there's opera, theatre, Shakespeare, the entire genre of rap music.Banning one Welsh anthem might seem trivial to some, but once you begin to sacrifice,art at the altar of snow flakery, as I would see it, the world starts to become a veryboring place. Well, joining me now is domestic abuse survivor and the founder of stand-up todomestic abuse, Rachel Williams, and my pack. Legal journalist Ava Santina,talked if you contribute to Esther Cracker. Well, welcome to all of you. So, Rachel,first of all, you've been through a horrific thing, horrific domestic violence, ending up with
04:39you being shot, and it had appalling consequences. Your own son took his life.after this. And for that, I'm deeply sorry to you. And genuinely, I have nothing to offer youbut empathy for everything you've been through. Here's my problem with this, is I can understandwhy you, given what you've been through, given the choice, would say, yeah, stop singing Delilah.But for the reason that I just articulated, that once you start going down that row with fictitiousart. I don't know where it ends. Most operas have similar storylines. Shakespeare's full of it.Do we literally say that's it that all that kind of stuff has to be expunged, cancelled?Well, I'm Welsh. I live Tom. I used to sing along with gusto, you know, not really knowing the
05:29words. And this is what I found in the last couple of weeks. People are singing it, not knowingthe words. And I think if it was put up on a big screen in the match, would people really want to beseeing that, the glorifying of a murder.You know, we know we losetwo women a week at the hands of a partneror ex-partner. Isbanning Delilah going to stop a perpetrator?Of course it's not. And anybody that thinks that is absolutely
05:54insane. So why bother?Well, I think, you know, we talk about Happy Valley.You know, that was great because it showed domesticabuse, showed coercion, showed the murder,showed the violence. But then it's a good copbad cop. He got donefor his actions, basically.this is actually glorifying a song of a murder.
06:12And I think unless you've been touched by domestic abuse and violence directly or indirectly,it's or somebody else's business.But if you took the argument, this is not, I get it.I get it completely get why you feel the way you do.But if you take the argument that if you've personally experienced something,which is, you know, for you a serious thing and it upsets you and it's traumatising,that no art can ever go down that road because it might upset somebody who's been through it themselves for real,I just think in the end, I'll bring in the pack here,
06:40but I just think in the end, Esther,once you go down that road, it's a very slippery slopeto really rampant censorship.Because somebody somewhere will have a storynot as bad as yours, I would hope,because it's horrific.But somebody will have a story about almost everything,which they could say, look, this is traumatising me,
06:59this Shakespeare play, this performance of it,this opera.I mean, the operas in particular, I'm thinking of.This poem, I mean, there's all sorts of.of stuff where you might recite poetry, you might recite a, you know, I might have a schoolplay of Shakespeare. I was a Shakespeare performer myself at prep school. When I look back on it,Romeo and Juliet, you know, these things are, they're all pretty violent. Yeah, I mean, it's a free speechissue, right? You know, everything at some point can and will offend someone else. But at the point
07:27where you're infringing on someone's free speech to actually sing the song because you think they'renot cognizant of the content of the lyrics or whether they should be singing it, that is where it's aslippery slope because then you have to be able to justify it. You have to be able to prove thatthat song is an instruction manual for people that want to, you know, solve domesticdispute, which is not. No one's murdered a woman because they said, I listened to that,that did the song, Delilah and followed the lyrics, right? And the bigger issue here is,you know, listen to the filth that we listen to today, 50 cents, you know, Stormsy,look at the lyrics of all the modern pop songs that we listen to. They're all full of
07:58violence and, you know, glorifying horrible things, but we still sing them. And most people knowthe lyrics, they just choose to ignore them. Right. That's just the nature of theRight, I mean, that is my feeling about this.If you're going to start banning Delilah,it's a bit like when they went after the Christmas song,the, what was it, Baby, it's Cold outside.And they said it, you know, it was basically a licenseto commit assault on women.
08:19Everybody with a brain knew that was not the case about that.It was a very innocent song, actually,a very innocent video about playful flirtation.But he got misconstrued.John Legend rewrote the lyrics because it was so outrageous.But John Legend, his best friends with a bunch of rap stars,You write and sing the most heinous stuff.So to me, there's a real double standard, too,
08:40about what we delve into when it comes to censoring music.But that's interesting that you understand that dichotomy,and then I understand later in this program,we're going to be talking about Sam Smithand the display that they put on yesterday at the Grammys,a display that I really enjoyed.You can understand how that might be influentialon children who are watching on impressionable people,
09:01but for some reason you can't understand why chantingabout murdering someone might have some sort of breakthrough.I think the difference here is not murdering someone, it's murdering a woman.So imagine if Delilah was written and sung by a woman, right?That's just a woman.Bob Marley shot the sheriff, what happens with that?Hang on, hang on, baby.Bob Marley, I shot the sheriff.
09:19Yeah.So what happens to that song?Well, what do you mean?Are we in a situation where Bob Marley has shot a sheriff?Are we saying it only matters if a woman, is it only applicable to women being on the receiving end of violence?Well, I think that I think you are very intelligent peers and you know.that women are often on the end, the receiving out of domestic abuse.You know, a woman is killed every three days by a partner, ex-partner, or someone she knows.
09:42It's inconsequential.No, but it dwarfs that number.The number of men that are killed by other men, dwarfs the number of women that are killed by thedomestic.Well, that doesn't mean all men are bad.No, I'm sorry.It doesn't mean all men are bad.You have to say, I've got to say, Rachel, on that point,
09:55I have made a series of crime documentaries involving extremely violent women,just for the record, a two series called Killer Women.and they were incredibly dangerous and very violent.So it's not like dangerous women don't exist.The percentage is higher,but the highest percentage of killings of the worldby a country mile, as Esther said, is men on men, right?But my point is, okay, you know, Bob Marley, I shot the sheriff.
10:17Do we ban that song?Yes or no.I understand that.Do we or not?But can I also present something like a politician?Do we ban it or not?We don't ban it.We don't ban it.
10:28So men getting shot dead, fine.Women getting killed, not fine.Let me slightly agree with you.You see the slight problem with that?Let me slightly agree with you and say,what I didn't like about this banwas I felt that the Welsh Rugby Unionhad actually engaged in fem washing,
10:41which is essentially like, you know...What is fem washing?Well, I'll tell you.That sounds like one of those things that you see and works for in America.Yeah, exactly. It's a hygienic product.But it's capitalising on domestic abuseand women's violence in a way to publicise yourself.And actually, yeah, banning this song
10:54is not going to do anything to, you know,to combat the way that women are treatedby violent husbands who come home from sports games.If they'd actually done something productive,alongside this band, I'd be more on side with it.But I think they have trivialised domestic abusewith just this quiet ban.Okay, so my other question, look,
11:10you said you sang along with...It's been a Welsh anthem for 50 years, right?It came out of the 60s.Why now? I mean, we've all known what the lyrics have been.Everyone knows what the song is.Why now?I think, if I'm truly honest,it is in response to what's just coming out with the WIU.
11:26You know, I've been talking about this songfor the last few years,and so was Chris Bryant, the MP.And I had a Twitter debate with a gentleman on Twitterand he said, you know, oh, it's ridiculous.And then when I explained to him my reasons of why I think it should not be sung,he said he totally agreed.You know, 92% of defendants in domestic abuse cases in 2020 weren't, were male.
11:48You know, we've got a problem.But here's, again, I come, listen, complete respect again for your argument.I get it.But here's the problem.To me, there are two issues, domestic violence and free speech.Right? Nobody is saying that these are real people in Delah. They're fictitious and someone is singingreally happening every week though they'll be it. No, I understand that but happy valley is fictitious.Yes, but then you had the cop at the end. So if Tom Jones rewrote the lyrics and the guy who kills the woman gets
12:17put in jail, you'll fine with it. If that's it. If that if that so be it, yeah, yeah. You'd be fine with that.So you keep the standard. So your interpretation of it is the standard. My thing is at the end of the day is good cop by a cop and at the end of the day you've got a caselike with Happy Valley, where he was actually arrested,put in prison, and, you know, you've got that result.So if the story ends the way you want it,that's when it's okay free speech rights?Well, no, it's, you know, I...What if Delilah took the knife?
12:43What if Delilah saw the man at the door and said,oh, you know what, I'm sick of you?And just went into her kitchen and got a butcher's knife.No, I think we're trivializing it.No, but that's the thing.You're happy to manipulate a storyto make it more comfortable what you like.No, it's not. Because at the end of the day,
12:56if the guy, if Delilah killed the guy,then, you know, we could still have this.same conversation.But we're doing, do we ever?We wouldn't be having a conversation.Exactly.No, because more women are killedthe men in the UK years.
13:09But as we just said,far more men are killed by men,than any other form of murder in the world.And it's promoting violence constantly.This is a sick world.That's the entirety of the rap genre.That's the entirety of the rap genre.Rugby itself promotes violence.
13:24It's men smashing into each other.Right, it's violent.Yeah, but they choose to do that.A woman don't necessarily killed or smacked away.I also choose not to sing the song, but you don't get to make that blanket ban for everyone else.That actually says more about the person singing the song.Hold on. If you know the lyrics, if you know the lyrics and you choose to sing it, then you, that's why it's called freedom of speech.That's fun.
13:42Would you, okay, but would you, though, go over any opera that had problematic, you know, narratives or themes?Would you go over any other songs which have violence in them?Would you ban all rap music?Because they're all pretty violent.You got sting, you know, you know, that's a homage to stalkers, you know?Every breath you take every move you make.No, I get what you.I'm going to ban every breath you take.
14:02I would love to ban that song.Please you can.You can.That is a terribly frightening song.I cannot stand it.Every breath you take.It's awful.It's about a man watching his ex-wife forever.
14:14It's stalking.It sounds nice.It's not very nice.It's not very nice.All right.So we're banning that as well.What else do you want to ban?I'd happily get rid of that.
14:22You'd happily get rid of most rap music.It's interesting to hear you talk about.Yes, you would.I'm sure I've been on the showand I've spoken to you before about how rap music,you know.No, I've only ever said, I don't think any of it should be banned.I think fictitious music lyrics, like everything else fictitious,
14:38they should be treated as fictitious.And I don't see a causal link between Delilah and people suffering domestic violence.I just don't.If there was one, if there was a spate of cases,if people say, well, actually, I listen to Tom Jones sing this at the rugbyand it made me want to go and kill my partner, fine.There's ever been a recording case of that.You don't think that chanting it over and over again might normalize domestic violence.
15:00I don't think anybody ever has ever gone away from chanting delighter and think,I must go and kill my girlfriend.Well, then it's okay for Sam Smith to dress up as Satan, isn't it?My point about Sam Smith is he's become a bit like his heroine Madonna.He's become this ridiculous attention seeker who only shocks just to create shock and attention.The reason I had an injection to this is written a column about for New York Post.There are 210 million Christians in America, 63% of the country,who are actually genuinely offended, that Sam Smith was.
15:29And I'm a Catholic, I think it's fantastic.I was prancing around on stage at the Grammy's family show, watched by kids.He's prancing around devil worshipping and actually making a point of saying,well, they don't recognize trans people, so we view them as hellish, right?No, but then do you get to ban free speech or you get to promote free speech when it's Delilah?But then when this comes on and it might offend a certain subsector of America,then we'll have to get rid of it.I'm not saying it should be banned.
15:54Or it's not appropriate because it might offend certain people.You could be critical.You could be critical. I just don't believe in this cancel cultural.I don't believe you keep banning things because you don't you don't feelfind them appropriate but you can sing Delilah at home you can go home and singevery breath you take no one is stopping you from doing that we're just suggestingthat maybe in a stadium full of people where women and children like to take part inthe action it's not appropriate you're not suggesting it you're banning it that's
16:16the difference you're not suggesting it now it's been banned I didn't ban anythingthat was the well yeah but that's the that's the that's actually only the choirstop the choir singing but my so if your mum was tragically killed by by herpartner knife to death would you be happysinging that in a rugby match?I wouldn't have any correlation between that and Delilah, no.You wouldn't?No, none at all.
16:37Unless it happened because of the song Delilah.My dad's a Welshman and a massive fan of Welsh rugby.If he suddenly got over-excited watching the rugbybecause Delilah was being sung and attacked my mother,I might have a problem with it.But I don't see any causal link between the two things.And that's where I have a problem with the censorship.If there was, I'd say, okay, I get it.
16:58And again, I can.I don't completely understand why you feel the way you do,but I do think once you go down that road,I'm not sure where it stops,because there'll be a lot of people out therewho have their own reasons, like you say,is every breath you take about stalking?I don't think so, but there'll be someone who's a stalking victim
17:14who has the same powerful argument that you do,who's been through a horrendous experience with stalking,and says, yes, and I get that, and I get each individual case.I don't think you can really legislate free speechby saying every individual that suffer personaltrauma means we have to ban this thing.And like I said, all along peers, you know, at the end of the day, perpetrators abusebecause they choose.
17:37Not because of alcohol, not because of drinks, not because of their childhood background,and not because of Delilah.But the good thing what's happening here is we're having the conversationabout domestic abuse and violence and it's been brought back into the media, which is great.I agree.And I think that's an important issue.I know you've been through an awful lot and it's great to see you.So thank you very much for coming in.
17:55Appreciate it.You're staying with me back.Next to night, the fallout to my suitz of interview with Prime Minister Rishi Sunakand the ghastly return of the most unwanted Prime Minister in history.The Lettis.Let's trust, all next.Welcome back to Piers Morgan Uncenter, just when Rishi Sunak thought he'd sailed into slightly calm or waters,the Tory sharks circling the Prime Minister, Liz Truss and Boris Johnson,
18:29are pushing the tax cuts ahead of the budget.Remember, the last time the government tried the Trussway,the pound tanked and mortgage rates explodedand she was gone in 44 days.In fact, she lasted less time than a lettuce, you might remember.Well, maybe you wish she said that is to take the advicethat I gave him during our interview.Is it time to put the periscope up
18:53and unleash a little torpedoto remind Boris who the actual Prime Minister is?Well, join me now as a former Conservative Party chairman, Sir Jake Berry.Ava and Esther still here.and I'm joined by Talk to Eastfield editor to Kate McCann.I'm going to start with Kate McCann down in Westminster.The Liz Trusts come back that nobody forecast and nobody seems to want.Why is this happening?
19:15Why is she not taking a dignified period of silence of, say, 20 yearsas we try and forget the damage she wrought on our economy?Yeah, Piers, I think that's a question that actually lots in the Conservative Party,not least in the country, are asking themselves too.What's clear from the 4,000-word piece that Liz Trusses,wrote over the weekend and the interview that she's done this evening withSpectator TV is that she feels she's going to play a role in reshaping notjust the Conservative Party but the whole of politics is approach to economics
19:47she thinks essentially that Rishi Sunak and those in government right now havegot it wrong and she seems to feel some kind of duty to try and set it rightand what's fascinating about reading her interview and her reasoning for why thingswent the way they did is that there's a lot of blame levied on a lot of differentpeople. The OBR comes in for someliteral, not phrased enough in economics, we're not economically literate.We play a part too. She's clearly thought about the reasons why she believesthings went wrong for her, but I think the mood in the Conservative Party is pretty
20:23much not right now, thank you very much, even though there are many on thoseventures who think they'd like to see. It's not not right now, it's not never, thanks.It's unbelievable. And I read this 4,000 word thing.She blamed absolutely everybody and even found a way to blame the Labour Party,which I hadn't factored into this at all,because last time I checked, she was thrown out by her own side,not by the Labour Party.But also the idea you can be Prime Minister for 44 days,
20:49that you can be outlasted by a lettuce in a tabloid stunt,that you tank the pound to record lows,that you cause immeasurable damage to individual householdswith soaring mortgages and so on.The idea that you don't even include the word sorry in this 4,000 word piece,that you blame everybody else and that you very grandly say,I don't think I'll be making a comeback as Prime Minister.No one's going to ask you.
21:16Sorry?Yeah, well, I mean, I think she evidently feels like she was unfairly turfed out,and she's gone away, thought about it, come back,and explained all the reasons why she feels it wasn't fair.I mean, I think the most telling moment for mein what we've seen from her over the last 24 hourswas she still doesn't really.seem to have an answer to the question of why she sacked her own chancellor, which you would think
21:40she had spent some time thinking about. And you're right, you know, this does have a huge impactnow on the party itself. I mean, you've got Jake Berry there. I'm sure that he will tell youthat Rishi Sunak will be able to carry on and the prime minister is setting his own course. Butthe reality is that there are those in the Tory party, which is kind of what I was about to saybefore, who would like to see the chancellor cut taxes in the budget. And we've had a very clearsignal from number 10 that that is not going to happen. And remember, we're not that far outfrom a general election. And there are lots of Conservative MPs worried about whether or notthey'll be able to keep their seats who would like to see more action from the Prime Minister,
22:14who doesn't feel himself that now is the right time to rock that particular vote again.I'm just trying to wonder, I'll bring in Jake Barry here. I'm just trying to wonder how stupidyou have to be as a Conservative Member of Parliament to think the best thing that RishiSunnet could do right now is the thing that Liz Trusted, which tanked the pound, virtuallycollapsed our economy, almost led to usdefunding ourselves, and led to having to leave after 44days as the record worst Prime Minister in history.What part of the brain of any Tory MP, and by the way,
22:43if you're one of them, I include you, so this is your chance toeither convict yourself or acquit, but what part ofthat thinking is anything other than insanity?I mean, it would be like the old Einstein thing, the definition of insanity,doing the same thing again and again, expecting a different result.Well, Peir's, look, Rishi Sunek himself has committed to lower taxes before the next general election,looking at the basic rate of income tax.That's something I support.
23:09I think families up and down this country realize there's a little bit too much month and not enough salary,and a great way of helping them out is to cut their taxes.But he said he'll do it in his own time when it's right for the economy.We all want to cut our taxes, right?We shouldn't be surprised that Conservative MPs believe in cutting taxes.It's a sort of mantra of the part.But the mantra of the economy.the party I keep hearing is, and this is people that I know, for example, worship Margaret
23:34Thatcher, right? Margaret Thatcher, I don't know where this myth has developed that the firstthing she did was slashed taxes. She didn't. The first thing she did with the tricky economythat she inherited was stabilised the economy, and when she was comfortable about it being stable,then she cut income tax dramatically, and it was a huge success. That's clearly what should behappening here. You stabilise the economy first. The inflation is still raging a way.at these huge levels. What you don't do is pour petrol onto the inflation bonfire at this particularlyperilous moment, Dee. I mean, it's mad. Well, Margaret Thatcher did spend the first part of herpremiership reforming the civil service, which I absolutely think we need to do. And one of the things
24:15Liz has said is that the civil service has a sort of, you know, a sort of institutional biasagainst tax cuts and Brexit, she said recently today. You know, people will make their own mindabout that. And she rolled the pitch for tax cuts that led to a system.period of austerity in the United Kingdom.Do I wish Liz Trust had taken that approach?Yes, I think she should have done.I think it would have been a much better way of dealing with it.Do as a Conservative, I believe,
24:40actually we've got the highest taxes in this countrythat we've known in our peacetime history.I don't think they can go any higher.And I think if you accept that they shouldn't go higher,then you are then ultimately talking aboutwhen we cut taxes, not if we cut taxes, peers.One of the reasons, of course, eventually we want to cut taxes,but one of the reasons they're so astronomically higher right now
24:59is to repair a lot of the damage that Liz Trusscaused with her farcical44 days. Her and Quasi Quartetpulled this country'seconomy to its knees.The idea she popped up so soon. I find itactually insulting to this country,to be a lecturer, to the people, the millions
25:15of people paying through theirnose now for the mortgages. I findit insulting that Liz Trusshas dared to rear her faceso soon and isnot blaming anybodynot blaming herself, but everybody else is toincluding the Labour Party, apparently.
25:31It's a left-wing conspiracy that forced her to do what she did.No, it was ignorance of the markets and of the economy.Full stop, end.Well, I don't accept your premise that taxes are high nowbecause it's repairing what happened.I said they're higher than they would be because of the damage goals.Because we are coming out of a moment of national crisis in terms of COVID.That's why taxes are.
25:51I know.There's no point saying to the other thing.I said they've had to go back up the way they did.Not actually what we said, but it doesn't matter.It is what is it.On the issue of list of...To be clear...Jake...
26:01Well moment.You question me.He said, just to be clear,I said the reason they've had to goso stratasperically ire againis because of the damage that she causedand we've had to repair it.Jeremy Hunt's had no option,
26:12Nor's Rishie Zoonak.The reason taxes are highis because we're coming out of the COVID pandemic.But on the issue of timing,I think...Look, it doesn't matter where you thinkblame lies.I think the British people wanted to hear...
26:22Why did she say sorry?From Liz.I think they wanted to hear sorry.I think it was a mistake not to say that.And frankly,whoever is in, you know, wherever the blame lies,the British people look at this and go,my mortgage went up.
26:35You know, there was a problem with the economy,the bond yields went up.It doesn't matter whose fault it is.They blame the government.They blame the government.They blame the government.Because this trust and quasi-quartingplayed Russian roulette with the country's finances.
26:50But that's why it's so important nowthat we deliver on this pledge made by Ritchie to half-Inflation.Well, let's play a clip from my interview.is the biggest challenge facing every family.Interest rates went up again last week.This trust wasn't in power.It's because of inflation, and that's why we've got to talk about.
27:04I understand. Let's spend another clip from my interview with Rishi Sunaq about this very subject.It's pretty much the worst imaginable hospital passany incoming Prime Minister could ever wish to receive,which begs the question, what on earth did you want to do this for?Even though it was going to be a nightmare job for all the reasons that you outlined,I felt that I could make a differenceand I was the best person to make a difference at that moment,especially given the challenges that people were facing
27:33and what they were seeing with their mortgages.And that's ultimately why I put myself forward to do it.And knowing that it would be difficult and challenging,but ultimately doing what I thought was my duty in that situationbecause I believed deeply in serviceand thought I could make a difference of the country.Now, that got well received that interview.I think people appreciated seeing a bit more of him
27:53than normally doing an interview.show a serious side and also personal side.But I was quite impressed by the way he said to me, right, I've got these pledges,come back and interview me at the end of the yearand give me the verdict then on whether I've met them or not.I like that.That gives me a genuine, all of us, a target.Right, okay, he's laid down his marker.
28:11But the very last thing Rishi-Soonat needs right noware the two buffoons who came before him,rearing themselves up.Like, we've been so hard done by,going on maneuvers and trying to damage himownership away right when the party needs it least.You've been party chairman.What would you be doing now with these two renegades?
28:32Well, look, the first thing is we've got to work out what we want former prime minister to do.We're all quite critical in the media and politicians alike of Tony Blair and David Cameronvirtually immediately leaving office.People saying they're leaving to cash in.We've then got a whole series of prime ministers who have stayed in parliament and are involved in politics.Gordon Brown campaigned in the Scottish referendum.is in fact writing large parts of the Labour parties manifesto for them now in relation to devolution.When we have prime ministers coming in their early 40s,
29:01we have to work out what they're going to do next.I think that prime ministerial interventions,they uniquely understand how challenging the job is of being a prime minister.In that interview, I heard Rishi Sunnite say to you that he, in fact,speaks to all the former Conservative Prime Minister as a party leaders and talks to them about advice.But uniquely, they know how challenging that job is.So interventions should be in free.and impactful.
29:24And I think that can actually help the debate in this country.Ava, I mean, I do find it staggering.Here is Liz the lessis.I do find it staggering that we're even having a conversationabout Liz's trust making any kind of comeback yet.And with no remorse, no apology,just like it never happened.It was all somebody else's fault.
29:41And by the way, I was right.Yeah, and I think the other thing I take awaythat I'm a little bit frightened to hear, Jake,is your defence of List Trust and that low-tax policybecause the first time that you enacted that,you spook the markets and you frighten investment away from the UK.And actually, investors are still frightened to put their money into our country.And if they think that people on the backbenchers, MPs on the backbenchers,
30:03are going to still go for this low-tax policy and might brighten the markets again.They're never going to bring anything here.It's not a low-tax policy.We're in the highest tax burden this nation has ever been under.Perhaps you think they should go up.I actually think that we are...Well, apparently it does.That's about the tax.
30:22That's not what I said at all.You advocated for a low tax policy.The pets are squeaking.You talk to ordinary working families up and down this countryand what they want is the government to give them a break,to give them a tax cut to let them keep some money.I agree with you, but I think we're complaining two different issues here.I can't believe I'm defending List Trust.
30:39But investment in the UK was, we were the lowest of the G7 in terms of investmentfor a decade preceding Brexit.So clearly, Liz Trust, in her awful way,was trying to fix a structural issue with Britain's economy.by trying to attract for investment.But exactly, but the communication was off.I mean, the whole strategy was not listening to any advice.Exactly. I think what's the biggest issue with her comeback is the lack of the word sorry.
31:02And I think we have to acknowledge that.No one is against low taxes.Conservatives, even labor, you know, labor, traditional labor voters who are hardworking people want lower taxes.But it's the way she went about it, the fact that she's blamed no one, everyone else but herself.And the fact that she's really not kind of reading the room.No one wants to see Liz Truss back.No.No.
31:20Well, maybe you do, like you?No, no, what is she coming to do?The Labour Party has agreed with the Conservative Partythat they think the basic break of income tax should fall.I think that that is now agreed between the two parties.Look, Liz Trusser's diagnosis of what is wrong with the economyabout being a low-growth, high-tax economy that is unable to fund public services is correct.Was the prescription for that disease right?
31:42No, it wasn't.Should she have said sorry?I actually said earlier, I think she should have done.I think she would have got a much better hearing for the serious point that she wants to makeabout we need to talk about how great growthin our economy to pay for public services.Jake, good to see you. Thanks for coming in.I appreciate it. Thank you to my pack.
31:58Excellent today, as always. Coming up, how big of a threatis a balloon from China to the mighty United States of America?Well, quite a big one, according to Vivek Ramoswame, and he joins me next.Welcome back, it's the balloon that's become a political scandal in America.This is the moment the suspected Chinese spy balloonhas finally shot down over South Carolina after eight daysdrifting across American airspace.President Biden has been accused of humiliating America
32:35and emboldening China back into slowly.The commander-in-chief says he decidedif he commanded U.S. forces to shoot down the balloon,which they eventually did on Saturday,where that was four days after he said that.Well, joining me now.Actually, we've got a clip.I order the Pentagon to shoot it down on Wednesday
32:53as soon as possible.They decided without doing damage to anyone on the ground.They decided that the best time to do that was it got over wateroutside within our within 12-mile limit.It successfully took it down, and I want to compliment our aviators who did it.That's top gun shadesy sporting there, the president.But joining me now as the American entrepreneur and commentator, Vivek Ramoswami.Vivek, you're known as the anti-woke scourge of corporate wokeery,
33:26so it's good to have you on anyway.I mean, I may get to that in a say.But just on this issue of China and this balloon,it seemed to me a remarkable coincidencethat in the run up to President Biden's State of the Union speech,which is tomorrow night,you have a Chinese spy balloonjust wandering across American airspace for eight days.
33:45And it also revealed, I think,what many people fear is the problem with President Biden,which is his ineffectivenesswhen it comes to dealing with China.And you just have this spy balloon there,and nothing happening to it for days of it.So look, I actually think they were purposefully waiting for that spy balloon to fly over the oceanbefore shooting it down precisely so they could have plausible deniability because they were
34:11afraid of what they would actually find. So what they're able to be able to say to the publicnow, if I'm able to make a prediction, is that they weren't actually able to find the informationso they can't know, even though they sent these Navy divers down to find it. The problem is if theyhad shot it down instantly overland, they would have to deal with what they actually saw. And myview is that China is not so incompetent as some believe they are. I think they were sending asignal. They have sent these balloons in the past reportedly. But I think a big part of this wasshowing who's in charge, the idea that we can send this balloon over your territory and you're notreally going to do a darn thing about it. And I'm sorry to say that they were basically right
34:49because shooting it down after it's over the ocean was the equivalent of doing nothing about it.And then now the outrage afterwards is just a faux outrage from the CCP for whom lying is but ahabit of their culture. And so that's, I think,with essence of what's going on here, they flew theseballoons over Taiwan last year, reportedly.Now they're just sending that signal to the United Statesas one more inch in progressing towardssending their projection of strength over us as a people.
35:15That's, I think, a big part of the subtext of what was going on here.And what do you think is the likelihood of Chinaattacking Taiwan anytime soon?A lot of people think it is more likely than not.So I've been talking about this for a long time. I think it is quitehigh. I think it goes up for every little bit it goes up further. I think it was not going to happenbefore October of last year. That's when Xi Jinping took over his third term as leader of the CCP.He didn't want to disrupt the apple cart. But now that he's taken over, it'd be the perfect
35:45opportunity to show and project force. There's a Taiwanese election coming up in 2024.There's a U.S. election, presidential election, coming up in 2024. If I were in their shoes,you would look at the current U.S. president and say, that's a pretty good bet for somebody who's not going totake actually the right actions to deter this, that creates a potential window. Add to thatthe fact that the U.S. is actually retreating and actually even retiring some of its ships in theSouth China Sea, that creates a potential nadir of U.S. naval capacity in the South China Sea,right when China is actually ramping up its shipping production and its naval capacity as well.So I think it's unfortunately the imperfect confluence, which is to say from China's standpoint,
36:25the perfect confluence of forces and alignment of the stars, to say that that moment to go after Taiwan,could be coming sooner than we want.And I think this balloon was really, if I may say,a trial balloon to say that, you know what,we're going to invade your sovereignty,see what you're going to do about it.If the U.S. didn't do anything meaningful for that,then I think that's a test to say that the U.S. may not do anything meaningful
36:44in China's eyes for Taiwan either.And China will also be watching like a hawk what's happening in Ukraineand seeing how big a stomach for the fight the Americans have, right?Because there are increasing rumblings on the Republican side in particularin the United States that they shouldn't be spending all this moneywaging a war, sort of proxy war,helping the Ukrainians defeat Vladimir Putin.They should be spending it on more pressing domestic issues.
37:10But I would argue against that,that if you let Putin win in Ukraine,that's a green light,I would say for China to go into Taiwan.Well, it's one step deeper than that, Pierce, if I may.We don't depend on Russia for our modern way of life.In fact, even in the last Cold War,the U.S. did not depend on the Soviet Union
37:30for the shoes on our feet,or the phones in our pocket.But the precarious position with China,and I think this is the defining aspectof this Cold War in the 21st century,is the US depends on its rival, its enemy,for powering its modern way of life,from the clothes we wear to the electronics that we use.
37:48And that's what makes it so difficultto face down China relative to facing down Russia.So I actually think that it's in some ways,it's a disanalogy,because even if the US could take on Vladimir Putin,that's the easy part.In fact, you know,do a thought experiment.
38:03Imagine this was a Russian spy balloon.There is little doubt in my mindthat the thing the U.S. would have donewas to shoot it down instantlyand ratchet up sanctions on Russia.And the reason they didn't do it on Chinais because the U.S. depends on Chinafor our modern way of life.
38:16You know, the U.S. declared independencefrom the folks on your side of the pondin 1776.I think 2023 or 2024needs to be the yearthat the U.S. declares independence from Chinaor else there's no chance of actually being able to beat that enemy.You know who's been saying that for 40 years?
38:31Donald Trump.It was one of the things he was spot on about.I remember interviewing Donald Trump 15 years agoand him telling me exactly that.He said China is basically pillaging the USwithout the US really realizing what's going on.And it looks like he was right.Vivek, great to talk to you.
38:48Thank you very much.Come back again and talk about anti-woke scourge of corporations.We need your voice.It's out of control.So please come back another time.We'll discuss that.We'll do that.Well, next night, Sam Smith as the devil at the Grammys, Madonna looking barely human.
39:08Did they all think it was Halloween?Is his art or obscenity?We'll debate back next.It's hard to keep up with Sam Smith's identities.But last night's Grammys, they, as Smith now prefers to be called, identified as Satan.Performance, while many views, especially amongst the American Christian fraternity, which there are 210 million in America.The sentence to take Cruz said it was evil.Well, one of the scariest moments for me wasn't Sam Smith as the devil.
39:46It came with Madonna's general appearance.She seemed not to have got the memo that Halloween's in October.But are they, Sam Smith, pushing artistic boundariesor just pushing the limits of good taste?Shocking for the sake of it, outrageous, because why not?It sells records.What you want to mean now to debate all this?It's Mazden Rowan, who performs this tripping duplicates.
40:09and the YouTuber and commentator Lauren Chen.So Lauren Chen, let's start with you.I mean, it's caused outrage this Sam Smith performance last night.He'll be quite pleased about that because quite clearly, a bit like Madonna, his heroin,part of his stick is deliberately creating outrage because it fuels interest and headlinesand sells records.No, you're absolutely right.And people have said that this is a controversial move by Sam Smith.
40:35This is not at all controversial within Hollywood.And I want to be clear that Sam Smith,did this specifically to upset the American right and Christians everywhere and to virtue signalto his fellow Hollywood members and elitist that, don't worry, he's on your team, he hatesall of the things that he's supposed to hate.If he actually wanted to be controversial, in Hollywood, what he would do is actually comeout in favor of traditional values because we know that would never happen in a million yearsor he would, heaven forbid, actually do something that's critical of maybe Islam.
41:04That would genuinely be controversy, but of course because that wouldn't be popular among leftistelitists.He's not going to do that.This is actually, in a lot of ways, the safest thing that Sam Smith could have done.Yeah, I mean, now, Tripping and Jupiter, do I call you Tripping Jupiter or Manston?Which one would you prefer?You could call me Manston.Manston.
41:20Thank you for being on the program.This reminds me a bit of the Met Gala in New York when they all suddenly wore crucifixes one year.And as a Catholic, I read a column saying, you know what?You wouldn't be doing this to the Islam religion.Why would you just do it to Catholicism and to Christopherson?And that reminded me again, exactly what Lauren said about last night.Yeah, you can dress up as Satan and prance about having a bit of devil-worshippingjust to deliberately outrage 63% of Americans who are Christians.
41:52But given he wouldn't do that with other religions, which are likely to lead to more serious repercussions for him,I thought it was a bit cowardly, if I'm honest.I mean, I don't think there's anything cowardly about Sam Smith.And, you know, if Lauren's suggesting that they are doing this just for publicity as far as, like, their identity goes, I mean, people struggle their entire lives with identity and the fact that they can come to a place where they feel secure enough to let it out in the public is an amazing thing and a beautiful thing and a really important thing.As far as the red glitter hat with the devil horns and I'm sorry, Ted Cruz, if anyone looks at it.Sam Smith and thinks the word evil, I think that they might frighten a little too easily.As far as the Catholic Church goes, I mean, I can't think of a better, you know, religionto criticize or to tweak or because, I mean, there's like decades and decades of child sexual
42:59abuse that got covered up.So they don't really have a right to stand out and be outraged when they're.But there are decades and decades of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.And the point that Loram is making, I think, rather powerfully,was that you wouldn't get Sam Smith mocking Islam in a performance at the Grammys.Because, again, I mean, he wouldn't say it's cowardly.I'd say that is an example of kind of cowardice,because we all know he wouldn't do that.
43:25And what he did last night, I'll say the he, I think he called,they.They, what they did last night was a deliberate.an act of provocation to a group of people who represent nearly two-thirds of America.And I find that an interesting strategic decision.You know, this is somebody who wants to sell records in America.You know, it's a risky strategy to take on that number of Christians and mock their religionin that way.
43:55Well, I don't think anybody's religion was mocked at all.And this album by Sam Smith is, it's phenomenal.It's got really positive messaging to it.But like, if you're going to talk about artists pushing boundaries, this is what great artists do.You go back to David Bowie.He was attacked and vilified when he burst onto the scene.Lady Gaga, over a dozen years ago or more coming out.Same thing.
44:22You could go back to, sorry, are you going to tell me you don't like David Bowie?You don't like Lady Gaga because people weren't happy.And the interesting thing is with these icons, go back to Catherine Hepburn, right?when she was doing movies. She wore pantsand people freaked out.The detractors who pushagainst people who push gender boundaries,nobody remembers their names
44:44years later. I think the problem, I'll come back toLauren, but the problem I have with Sanders Smithis that they can't seem towork out what they are. So wewent through a period where he wasidentifying apparently as a straightman, then he came out as gay and everyone wasapplauded. And then within
44:59I think 18 months,he decided he wasn't a gay man anymore. He wasgoing to be non-binary, gender fluid and what is it be called they. It's quite hard toto keep up Lauren Chen, not to be disrespectful to they, but it is hard to keep up with Sam Smithbecause every 18 months or so, he seems to like a chameleon flip into some other new identity.And then we have to respect those titles that they now want.Now, you're absolutely right and it's interesting because I was looking back to interviewswhen Sam Smith first came out as gay. And he actually back then would say things along the lines
45:32of there's more to me than my sexual sexual.I just want this to be normalized.This shouldn't be a whole thing,which, I mean, by today's 2023 standards,that almost makes him sound like a right-wing extremist,the idea that his sexuality shouldn't define himself.But fast forward to today,apparently he's gotten the memo
45:47that the trendy thing is to come outas some sort of trendy new gender every other day.And I just want to say in regard to Sam Smith dressing as the devil,that's not part of your identity.Your fashion choices are not part of your identity.Sam Smith deciding to, in his music video,where a corset doesn't mean he's non-binary.All it means is that he's desperate for attention
46:08has absolutely no sense of fashionand probably doesn't have good friends around him.Right, and talking of people desperate of attention,Mazden, I just want to show you Madonna's head at the Grammys.And I just wonder, is this an examplewhen you look at Madonna at the Grammys last night,of where plastic surgery takes you if you're not very careful?If you're asking me, I'm not an expert on plastic surgery.
46:33So I prefer to go back to Lauren's comment.I just have a question for both of you.Have we got the picture of Madonna?Sorry, there we are, yeah.Sorry, go on, Mazden.Well, I wish her well.She's an icon.She's done great things in music
46:46and influenced a lot of people.My question is, why are conservatives,the ultra-conservatives especially,the only ones who are obsessed with what people wear,obsessed with how people identify,and obsessed with other people.She's run out of time,but I can answer one question.
47:01I'm not a conservative.So if that helps you,That will help with debate.Lauren, Madden, great to have you both.Come back again soon.That's it for me.Keep it uncensored.
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