Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Husam Zomlot and Orly Goldschmidt

Episode Date: October 18, 2023

On tonight's episode of Piers Morgan Uncensored, Piers is joined by the Palestinian Ambassador Husam Zomlot and Israeli Diplomat Orly Goldschmidt as Piers asks, How far should the US go to back Israel in this war? Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Live from the News Building in London, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored. Good evening for London. Welcome to Piers Morgan Unsensit. Much of the world, through its support behind Israel on the wake of the Hamas attacks of October the 7th, landmarks from Downing Street to the Empire State Building and the Brandenburg Gate were illuminated in the colours of the Israeli flag. Quite rightly, it can't be repeated enough. That was a terrorist attack and the worst mass killing of Jewish people since the Hollis caused. But as the Israeli response now intensifies, that backing will inevitably be tested and challenged. As we've debated on this show,

what is a proportionate response to acts of terror like that, and who should get to decide that? Israel knows it needs the full support of its allies and this push to wipe out its enemy Hamas. The Palestinians know that too, and the result is a dangerous fog of war, with both sides making claims and counterclaims, apparently living in completely alternate realities.

Last night, the world was shot by this. We are now learning that hundreds of people have now died, in a strike on a Gaza hospital. Israel has thrown any caution to the wind. 500 Palestinians are said to have been killed in an explosion. One of the most deadly attacks of this conflict so far. Between 200 and 300 people were killed in a bombing, targeting a hospital.

That's according to a spokesperson for the Palestinian Health Ministry. Well, authorities in Gaza City, which is controlled by Hamas, said an Israeli rocket destroyed the hospital, killing 500 people. As I said at the time, if true, this would be a major turning point in the war, and the consequences were immediate. Jordan canceled a summit with President by Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president, canceled his meeting with Biden too.

Condemnation poured in from everywhere. Then it began to get a little more complicated. The Israelis first denied that any hospital was a target, then said the rocket was fired by Palestinian terrorists. They said it misfired and landed in the hospital car park, and they had the evidence to prove it. Tonight, the White House said it's seen that evidence, and that it agrees.

This was President Biden shortly after arriving in Israel today. It was deeply saddened and outraged by the explosion at the hospital in Gaza yesterday. And based on what I've seen, it appears as though it was done by the other team, not you. But there's a lot of people out there not sure. So we've got to overcome a lot of things. But it's not a game. There are no teams here. It's a deadly serious war.

but the other serious point here is that rush into judgment is a big mistake. October the 7th was a terrorist attack. This is a war. And in times of war, we have to look twice at everything, maybe three times. News outlets like the BBC rushed to send push notifications and break news about a wicked, supposed Israeli attack. Now the BBC's own Verify unit is citing a large pile of circumstantial evidence that the blast originated in Gaza, and none of it, in fact, came from Israel.

In the February Times, we should. trust sparingly and question everything. And remember this, whoever did blow up that hospital, a lot of innocent and vulnerable people died. To discuss the war in Gaza, I'm joined by the Palestinian ambassador to the UK. Usam Zomlin. Ambassador, thank you very much indeed for coming in. I do appreciate you taking the time, particularly at a time like this to come to the studio. You were very active on Twitter from the moment that this hospital was hit. You said it's a massacre. Hundreds are killed in an Israeli strike on the hospital. Hundreds of medical staff taking refuge.

How long will it take to stop these atrocious war crimes? You then said, waiting for UK government condemnation of this atrocious act of mass murder after being directly hit by an Israeli airstrike. And you carried on when Keir Stama said, the scenes of hundreds killed at the hospital in Gaza are devastating, can't be justified, international law must be upheld,

but didn't mention Israel. you said, why can't you condemn this? Why is it so hard for someone with a background in human rights law? Is it because the victims are Palestinian? So you were in no doubt last night. This was an Israeli airstrike. And yet I watched the BBC News this evening.

They did an extensive investigation of everything that's available at the moment by their verify unit, specifically designed to cut through any partisan rhetoric and get to reality. And based on circumstantial evidence, as they said, But the clear conclusion of that investigation is it's far more probable that this was actually fired from within Gaza. It was a misfire and it landed in the car park next to the hospital.

And they cite, for example, the crater is tiny by comparison to the kind of crater you would see from a conventional Israel missile and so on. What is your response to that? Have you changed your absolute conviction that this is an Israeli airstrike? Before I answer your question, Pierce, today is the first day of our national morning for the killing of hundreds of innocent people. And in memory of those hundreds of doctors, nurses, medical staff, patients, cancer patients, patients with kidney failures, children. innocent people who took refuge in a Baptist-sponsored hospital, the Anglican. In the memory of all of those who were killed last night, allow me to have a moment of silence. This very same hospital, the Baptist Ahli Hospital of Gaza, was bombarded only two days before last night by the Israeli airstrike.

And they recognized that. this very same hospital was designated by Israel as a place to be evacuated. This very same hospital, the director of it, was called by the Israeli occupation authorities asking him to evacuate all patients on mass. But that's not my question. No, no, no, I'm answering your question and allow me to answer. My question is, are you still as sure as you were last night? I'm answering, I'm answering your question.

I believe the Archbishop of Jerusalem, when he condemned, the Israeli airstrike. I don't believe the Israeli mouthpieces and spokespeople. They lie more than they breathe. And this is, their record is very clear. Number three. Number three. You think groups in Gaza have such, you know, precision and firepower? Really? I don't think it was precise. Seriously. It was. If you look at the, it was. Ambassador, with respect, you look at the BBC investigation. It was. They include footage, which seems to. to show a rocket misfiring. Let's have a look. Let's have a look.

There's no sound. You see it go up, and then you see a ball of fire, and it looks like, and this was the BBC's conclusion, based again on circumstantial evidence, that this was fired from within Gaza, it misfired, it then landed in the car park next to the hospital. Now, all I ask you this, ambassador. I am an ambassador, I'm an official,

and I tell you with certainty, this was an Israeli air strike. Where's your evidence? I have the evidence and you will see the evidence. But where is it? I'll tell you what's my evidence. My evidence is that we are calling for the Red Cross to come and investigate this and for the ICC. And until now, the Red Cross has the responsibility at such war crimes.

Who's blocking the Red Cross? Anyway, we have very strong civil society, human rights organizations on the ground. We are communicating with them. Tomorrow you will hear from everybody. And you believe you will produce evidence to do Israel? Yes, we will. Yes, we will. Why would the American...

The question, Peter. Let me ask him this. Don't ask me about the Americans. The Americans... Why would the President of the United States say that his own independent investigation by his own people, i.e. not the intelligence given to him by the Israelis.

That has also established it came from within Gaza. Is that a serious question, Pierce? You think the Americans are... You think he's lying, President Biden? Yes, he is lying. He is lying. And he is part of... That's a big charge to make about the President of the United States.

He has just lied before getting any evidence. There is no way... He's seen evidence. I don't know if he's seen evidence. Well, he said he has. He doesn't have personnel. If he has personnel, he must provide protection for our civilians. Then he is complicit in the crimes against us.

When you see that video, what do you think you're... What do you think you're seeing about it? It's whitewashing and gaslighting, as we have been seeing over decades. And, well, what, if I am wrong, bring me again here. Okay. Bring me again here, and then we'll discuss it. Okay. No one has such firepower except the Israeli...

But have you seen the crater? Have you seen the crater? army and you know what no one even in the region has such firepower have you seen have you have you seen the crater i have seen i have seen i have been i have does that crater not tell you it was not an israeli this is the trick i'll tell you what happened israel did it israel thought the world was giving it the green light that it was okay to do so but when we did it they did it they did not expect the outcry and then they did it again as they do all the why is the crater so as they do all the time they similar they similar

simply go out and deny it, blur the lines, two stories we don't know, and I will remind you a few weeks from now or a few months, Israel will come out and admit it. But it will be too late. They will not get the condemnation. I don't think they will. They will admit it, as they did in the past. In the past, they have denied many things. Have you seen, out of interest, have you seen the BBC verify investigation? Did you watch that tonight? You know, the BBC is to be blamed for part of this. Why? Because the BBC just ran one day before that Hamas digs tunnels underneath hospitals, primarily speaking, instigating the Israeli IDF, another indication that they did it, that they should go after hospitals, which is

a war crime, as you know, very well defined. Now, where is the issue here? Where is the main issue here? Is that all these lines that have been happening over the years are not challenged by you, Pierce, you and all the mainstream international. Well, that's completely untrue. No, no, it is all that says to me is, you've never, you've never seen me on your I have seen you. I have seen your interview. You saw me for years and seen him. I have seen your interview.

You've seen me interviewed Netanyahu twice. I have seen your interview just a few days ago with Israeli ambassador. She did say, here, on this seat, on this seat, that they provided the whole south of Gaza as a safe zone, and they are building shelters to Palestinian civilians. She told you that. And I said there was. Did you challenge her? I said, did you challenge her. I challenged her like this.

No, you did not challenge her. Let me tell you. Let me answer. Let me answer. Let me answer your point. Ambassador. I'll tell you, my sister. She denied there was a humanitarian crisis.

I said there was. No, no, you did. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. You started that conversation with her with showing an outpouring emotions, good for you, about the mothers. Why didn't you start with me about the thousands of mothers, grandmother? I literally read that.

I literally with me. Well, Ambassador. This is the asymmetry. This is the asymmetry. Ambassador. That she lied. There's no asymmetry. She lied with you.

Let me be clear. She said that the South of Gaza is safe. You know how many people were killed in the South of Gaza? only in the last 48 hours. You know that my sister now, she lives in the south of Gaza. I know. And you're following my Twitter. Look at my nephew, Ammar.

I saw, you saw what happened to Amma. They live in the south. So an Israeli official sits here and tells the world that the Gaza, the south of Gaza is safe and people should go there on mass, therefore ethnically cleansing these people to the south to actually, actually slaughter them. And then you, tears, do not. not look her and die and tell her, stop lying. I was on the BBC Sunday morning just a couple of days ago with the Foreign Secretary of

and others. Before me was another Israeli mouthpiece spokesperson. Mark Regev, he said, we did not and will not target any hospitals. They lie all the time. But just to be clear, on the hospital, there is a clear circumstantial set of evidence, which has been established now by the BBC, by the independent. verify unit. They don't have any skin of this. You think that was the first time Israel targets a hospital peers? I don't know. I'm not saying that. I'm just talking about last night's

atrocity, which is what it is. Israel did. Because hundreds of people have died, there remains a massive question mark over whether Israel had anything to do with it. What about the other 2,800? Well, let me come to this. All right. Let's come to this. So I want to take you back to October the 7th, because you were very quick last night when you believed it was an Israeli airstrike that had committed this horror, which had killed several hundred people. We're not entirely sure of the exact death toll yet, but certainly hundreds of people appear to have died. You were very quick to demand that everyone from Kirstama to others

publicly condemn what had happened. Of course. So let me take you back. Well, hang on, let me take you back to October the 7th. No, no, I'm not playing anything. Don't play this. If you are in the... Ambassador, let me finish my question.

Okay. Okay. I know where you're going. But I want to expect... I don't think it takes a genius to work out where I'm going. I wanted them to... No, but let me ask a question first. Then you can respond.

Please. Okay. My question is this. You're very, very keen to demand that political leaders, including Sekeir Stah Marhear, publicly condemn an attack on a hospital, which may not have been Israel, right? And you repeated that throughout your evening on Twitter, right?

That's true. But what you have... Are not prepared to do yourself, as the ambassador to the UK, because I've checked your Twitter feed, and you've not done this, and to my knowledge, you've not done this in point, public, you're not prepared to condemn Hamas for the slaughter of 1,400 innocent people in Israel on October 7th. So I give you the chance, given that you want others to condemn acts that

kill people, even if they're not responsible, given that Hamas have brazenly admitted responsibility for what they did, are you prepared to condemn it? You know, this game and this narrative... It's not a game. It's a game. Why? I'll tell you. Why should you demand condemnation of people dying, but not be prepared to get done it yourself. Okay, allow me to explain it to you and to your viewers why it is a game and a very vicious, unfair, asymmetric game that has contributed to the oppression of my people for 100 years.

Number one, you know our position. You know that Hamas is just a militant group that was created 20, 30 years ago. You think the terrorists? You asked me this question. Okay. What is the definition of terrorism? I just ask you, do you think they're terrorists? What is the definition of terrorism?

The UK government. The UK government has them as a prescribed terror. I'll give you the international, United Nations definition of terrorism. It is the unlawful use of violence against civilians to terrorize them for the sake of a political agenda. Agreed? Agreed? Unlawful violence against civilians. Do you, and answer me, please. Do you consider Israel to be a... Ambassador, with respect, to be a terrorist state, do you consider Israel to be a terrorist state? Do you consider Israel to be a terrorist state? Do you consider Israel to be a...

If you won't answer me, why should I answer you? Did we agree? Did we agree on the definition of terrorism? I've asked you, is a mass a terror group? Israel has been targeting civilians in front of your eyes for 75 years. But why should I answer any of your questions if you won't answer mine? deliberate targeting, and not just this round. 2014, you know all that happened? I'm very aware of the history.

I'm very critical of Israel over the years. Is Israel a terrorist state? I'm asking you the question. Is Israel a terrorist state? Ambassador. This is the asymmetry. Ambassador. Answer me and I'll answer you about Hamas. Answer me.

It's not how this works. It is. My show. It is. And you're a guest on my show. It is. From now on, this is the way it works. Okay.

But there has to be equity. It's symmetry. You are the ambassador to the United Kingdom. I'll ask you a question. I'll ask you a question. You are the ambassador. I am. Proudly so.

Proudly so. I'll ask you a question. And you've been here, I think, since 2018. You've been ambassador for five years. Yes. And I wasn't the US before. Right. And the UK government has Hamas identified as a prescribed

terror group. Do you agree with that? That's the UK business. You don't agree? No, no, no. This is not about me agreeing or agreeing. I'd like the UK to designate the khanist in the Israeli government as a terrorist group. You may want other groups as a terrorist group. I want to see

But as a Palestinian ambassador, do you disagree with Hamas being prescribed as a territory? Get my point. Please, get my point. I want to see equal treatment and I will accept the equal rules. If these rules are applied on the Israelis, I would raise my hand and accept it. I will put my hand on my heart. Let me say this to you. Do you

consider Israel to be a terrorist state? Let me say this to you. That's number one. Number two. I'll ask you, do you accept the UK? You asked me about the UK government. The UK designates Palestine as the occupied Palestinian territory, right? OPD. We are occupied. Do you accept that designation? Well, it's an interesting question about occupation, isn't it? That's your government. I think the Palestinians have lived in a very repressive. So it's not occupation? Well, it's, it's a repression, right? What? They are living as, they are living as, they are living as repressed people. I have, I have I have for years. Oppressed by what?

Well, they're oppressed by Israel effectively keeping people trapped in Gaza, right? And they have the ability, as they've shown them the last few days, to turn on and off water, to turn on and off food supply. I think all this is wrong. What about those banks? Ambassador, I think it's all wrong. But let me just ask. No, no, no, this is a major point.

You're not interviewing me. Is it an occupation? Ambassador, you're not interviewing me. But what you're trying to do, if you don't mind me saying, you are distracting from my original question. It's a conversation. Respectfully, Ambassador. It's a conversation. I was interested that you last night were demanding

that political leaders like Kiyah Stama condemn a supposed attack by Israelis on a hospital which now looks like it wasn't by Israelis. And I'm simply saying to you, if you want people... Ambassador, let me finish my question. How do you know it's not by Israelis? I don't.

How do you know? I don't. So don't say it. But nor do you. I know what I'm saying. I represent the situation. You do not know it was an Israeli air strike. You hold me accountable next time.

You're neutral. You're neutral. I am neutral. I am neutral. I am neutral. I'm not neutral. Okay, I get that. No, no, no.

You are being biased. That is honest of you. You are taking this right aside. No, I'm not. You are? I'm not saying. You are following the queue from Israel. No, I'm not.

I'm saying the BBC Verify unit has said tonight, I think, do you think they're impartial in this or not? They shouldn't. They won't even call Hamas terrorists. This is none of their business. This is the business of Karim Khan, the prosecutor. I'm going to ask you one more time, and you don't have to answer this question if you don't want to. It's entirely down to you. But given that last night, you wanted people to condemn what happened last night.

what happened last night, in your belief that it was Israeli airstrike, and you were ferocious in demanding that repeatedly, will you now take the opportunity to condemn what Hamas did in October the 7th? Final, I only ask you one more time. 22 Arab states convened at the beginning of this, including my state, my government, and they condemned... Do you personally condemn it? They condemned the killing of civilians from all sides.

You know what? Not all sides. From all sides. Do you condemn what happened in October? Why do you serve a lot to condemn it? You asked, you asked. You were the one last night demanding people to do everything. I'll tell you why.

I would be the first to condemn. If I ever saw you asking an Israeli official to condemn, did you ask the ambassador to condemn all the atrocities? I will be asking. I will be asking the representative of the ambassadors tonight. You have the ambassador before me. You did not ask her to condemn anything. Then you didn't watch the interview.

I did. Yeah. I did. Okay. Let me ask you one more time. I did. Because I'm not sure if you heard my question. I will not answer this question unless you allow me to.

allow me to explain. No, no, that's fine. You don't have to answer it. No, no, no, I'll tell you. But if you're not going to answer it, don't demand that other people condemn things. And certainly don't ask me to condemn things. If you won't condemn, 1,400 people being slaughtered. Our position, our position.

How can you not condemn what they did? Our position is very clear. I represent the Palestinian leadership and people. I represent the PLO. That's the sole legitimate representation of the Palestinian people. President Mahmoud Abbas, the government. Hamas is not part. I know.

Of the government. I know. Okay, that's number one. Number two, that legitimate representation I represent have committed for 30 years for first nonviolence and negotiations. I belong to that camp. You're asking the wrong person. Committed to international resolutions and committed to the recognition of Israel.

We recognize the state of Israel long before anyone else. And we still waiting for Israel's recognition of us. And guess what happened in this 30 years? Every political avenue was blocked. Every legal avenue like the ICJ and the ICC is blocked. Every hope for any Palestinian is blocked. You are talking to a person who religiously believe in nonviolence. So please don't ask me that question.

If you believe in nonviolence, Ambassador, why are you reluctant? I answer. If you believe in nonviolence. That's why I picked diplomacy. Why are you so reluctant to condemn the worst terror attack in the power? I believe in the power of diplomacy. I believe in the power of nonviolence. I believe that we should always return and maintain the moral high ground. But that's why I am answering the way I'm asking you.

Okay, I understand. That's why I'm challenging you. Okay, I understand. The moment I accept your question is a moment I accept we are the instigators of violence. We are the aggressors. And I asked you the question before. She didn't say that. No, no, no, no.

I understand you're not part of Hamas. No, no, no, no. Not me, not me only. The entire Palestinian people are the instigators of violence. I understand you're not. The question. I understand, Pierce. Please.

But I understand it. Cool down. Cool down. The moment I accept this logic of condemn. In the lack of Israeli officials being asked by you and everybody else to condemn, that moment I accept that my people are lesser of a people, that we are not equal, that we are lesser of a, you know, children of God. And I don't believe that.

Okay, no, I think you do. And I think, no, I think Palestinian people are absolutely entitled to fairness and equality and human rights, many of the things they've been deprived of for decades. I would love to see peace in the Middle East, but nobody can show me how what Hamas did October the 7th has done anything for the Palestinian people other than set everything back and make peace even more unlikely. The moment I see that equity, that balance, I'll be the first to use any word you want. But so long as there is this imbalance, this racism against Palestinians, this consideration of us of being, you know, one-fifth. But I'm not racist against Palestinian people.

No, no, I think there are people who are racist. I think anti-Palestinianism is flourishing everywhere. I think we are seen as to be less of value than the Israeli lives. I'll tell you how. I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. You brought me here. You're bringing everybody. This has been the focus of everyone. You have located your moral compass on the 7th of October. No, no. Did you locate your moral compass? All that says to me is, did you locate your moral compass? I covered... 200 people killed this year in the West Bank?

Ambassador, I've covered... Did you bring me to the... Ambassador, the many Palestinians who were killed only in the last few months. Ambassador. This is the problem. Let me try and respond to you. Okay. I've been a journalist for 30 years. I've run major national newspapers.

I had a daily show at CNN for four years. If you actually go back and look at what I did, including, for example, a two-year campaign against the Iraq war, which I thought was an illegal invasion of a Middle Eastern country. So please do not pigeonhole me as somebody that has no compassion for Palestinian people. No, but don't generalize. You oppose the war. I've been getting Palestinian.

Palestinians on all week. Yes, you are. I've been giving Palestinians platforms, including you, all week, right? But when Israelis were harmed, you see, this is what I'm telling you. Why didn't you be on Palestinians when hundreds of Palestinians are killed by settler militias killed? Ambassador, here's my answer. Yeah. I can guarantee you, absolutely guarantee you that if the Israelis ever carried out a terror attack of the nature we saw on October the 7th.

They're doing. What? Since 1914. They pulled Holocaust survived. out of their homes and kept them hostage. They shot babies in their cribs. Watch the terminology. They burned families alive.

Terminology kids. Deliberately going in to get civilians? You see, you see, your responsibility is to really use the right terminology here. Why? This is it to speak. All of the words. All that happened. You are invoking many things here.

You've just invoked terrorism. You are now invoking ISIS. You don't dispute it as a terror attack, surely. You are now invoking ISIS, and you spoke about. I haven't mentioned ISIS, but for the record, not with you. but for the record, I do believe there's a parallel between what Hamas is done on October the 7th and ISIS. No, no, no. Okay, you see.

You don't agree? The Israeli, look at what happened on the 7th of October is not condoned. We reject wholeheartedly the targeting of civilians. Our culture, our upbringing, who we are as Palestinian, Christian and Muslims. What happened is non-Palestinian. How is that? And we reject it. And we want to continue maintaining the moral,

grounds of our cause very right. Let me ask you this. Okay, okay, let me continue. Let me continue. Okay. Okay. However, since the 7th of October, the first moment, Israel started preparing and putting together a huge campaign to delegitimize the Palestinian people, to link Hamas to

ISIS, and then link Hamas of the Palestinian people, then link the Palestinian people to ISIS, then do the ethnic cleansing and the mass destruction and the mass murder you are following on your screen sets. Okay. That's exactly what happened. Then the international media, mainstream media, were literally following the cues. Following the cues. ISIS. You talked about Iraq all the time. ISIS is a group of criminals who gathered from all over mercenaries who were there to kill and only to kill with no real agenda. You agree? Yes. You think Palestinians are that? No. Don't you think we have a political and legal case to make? So why are we using this term? We are using these terms to allow the Israeli more machine to kill.

Let me respond. That's why we're using it. Let me respond. So everybody who use these words is complicit. Ambassador, let me respond. Everyone. Let me respond. Okay, respond, please. I do not believe that most Palestinian people support what Hamas did on October the 7th. I do not believe you do. I do not believe the Palestinian authority does.

So do not think for a moment that I think you're all the same. I think Hamas is a terror group who committed an act of unspeakable. depravity and terrorism, and they must be held accountable. The question is, what is an acceptable way to hold them accountable? I do not believe a full ground invasion will do anything but make this 10 times worse for the record. But let me ask you this. There are 200 hostages, I think 199 hostages being kept by Hamas. Should they be released? They include children. They include Holocaust survivors. What is your view? Yeah, all hostages should be released. First of all, they should be kept safe and protected, and they should be released.

but hostages from all sides. How do we get to peace here, Ambassador? Final question. We have 5,000 hostages in Israeli jail, including children and women. Let me ask. We have many of them hundreds who are rounded there without charge or trials.

Everybody has to be released. I've got to wrap this. The final question. How do we get to peace from here? It seems to me, after 30 years of covering this conflict, we've never been further away from peace between Israel and Palestine. How do we get to peace here? By listening.

from your heart and your brain, that this is a people struggle for 106 years, 106 years because it all started here, the Balfour Declaration by the British Empire, where they promised our land without consulting us, and they turned us in that 67 words into non-Jewish minorities. We were 98% of the population. We had lived there for millennia. We were the cardinal of civilization.

We produced every profit. Palestine is the birthplace. of Christianity. We were literally the hub of the region, the linkage between Europe, Asia and Africa, and all of a sudden we are only a non-Jewish minorities. And then Britain took over our land. And not only they denied our people's hood and nationhood in 1917, but they denied us during the mandate our statehood because the contract with the League of Nation was Britain will come and take mandate of Palestine to prepare us and to recognize us as a state as Palestine. You know what happened in the Nakba?

mass expulsion, the Jewish militias at the time, ethnically cleansed two-thirds of our nation, including my own parents. I know the history. And I have great sympathy, by the way, with what happened to Palestine. Since then, my people, 67 and the military occupation that we discussed, since then this is a people's struggle for freedom, for justice, for equality. This is a people's cry to survive. How do we get to peace?

By full application of international rules. We did not create the post-World War II. Two-state solution? Yes, of course. Israel has to end its occupation that began in 1967. Refugee rights must be respected in accordance with international law. Two neighborly countries can get together with neighborly relations. But the Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves.

A state. We don't have an army. A state has an army. A state will do so. So occupation is the root cause of all this discussion. I have to end of that. We've had half an hour. I appreciate you coming in.

Thank you very much. I understand the passion. As you say, you're not an impartial person in this. I understand that. And I wish your family, all the very best in Gaza. I mean that very sincerely. Thank you. I hope they're okay.

Thank you. Thank you for coming in. Welcome back to Piersvogunoscent. I'm joined now in the studio by the Israeli diplomat and spokesperson, O'I Goldschmidt, and the former head of the British Army, Lord Dan. Well, welcome to both of you. Oli, let me start with you. Your reaction to my interview with the Palestinian ambassador.

You know, after the horrors that have been committed by Hamas against Israelis on the 7th of October, it's very disturbing to see his reaction that is so difficult for him to condemn Hamas actions. And I have to say, as someone who cares for the Palestinian people, he should be fighting against Hamas, which are holding the Palestinian people hostages, and they are making them suffer, both the Palestinians and both Israelis. The big question, I've been having this all week with multiple voices on all sides of this debate, but the big question, I don't dispute for a moment. I read a column about this yesterday. I read that. That Israel has an absolute right to defend itself after what happened.

This was an appalling terror attack, the worst attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust, the worst terror attack, you could say since 9-11. So they have a right to defend themselves, and clearly if the enemy is Hamas, and Hamas is predominantly in northern Gaza, living amongst civilians, the only way to get Hamas is to go in there in some way, whether it be through air or ground or whatever it may be. And I'll come to the general to talk about what the consequences of that may be. But the key question is proportion. What is proportionate?

I don't even know how you find proportion when you're talking about the scale of what happened on October the 7th. But Israel will know that the world is watching. And if they get this calculation wrong and they act in a way the world views as disproportionate, then this could spark a situation 10 times worse than it is already. What do you say to that? Pierce, you said it yourself. What is proportionate to beheading of people to the murder of 1,400 people, to the torture of so many people, to the firing alive, those innocent babies, women, elderly people?

It's a question. What is proportionate to that? I have to say, you know, I think, thank God, we're not going to be proportionate like the Hamas was with us, because we are not like Hamas. We care about human lives. We do not target civilians. We target Hamas facilities, Hamas infrastructures, Hamas leadership, and we don't want to be proportionate. Can you say unequivocally that it was not an Israeli airstrike that hit the hospital last night? You've seen the evidence provided by the IDF.

I can say equivocally that it was not an Israeli air strike. There are proofs, you know, the size of the crater, the fact that there was no IDF activity at that time in that place. And the firing, the footage that we saw from Al Jazeera itself, plus the conversation that we picked up from people from Hamas saying it was us. It was said in Arabic. It was us. It was Islamic jihad who fired that. And you know, maybe people don't know, but out of the hundred thousands of rockets fired, from the Gaza Strip towards Israel, at least 30% are misfired and they fall within the Gaza Strip.

I mean, I'm going to be, you know, waiting for more official confirmation of this. But, Lordana, I mean, the impending sense is going to be a massive ground, maybe air, ground, sea invasion of Gaza. From a military perspective, I saw David Petraeus, who was obviously commanded the Allied forces in Iraq. talking about how this brings back the memories of what happened in Iraq and how incredibly difficult it is to fight an urban war like that. And David Petraeus is absolutely right, and it is very difficult to fight an urban war like that. Back to the issue of proportionality,

the IDF can be proportionate, provided its operations are to the maximum degree possible intelligence-led. If they think they're going to be able to find lots of Hamas fighters amongst the residual civilian population, I think they'll be disappointed because actually anyone with half a wit would blend into the civilian population. What they absolutely must do

and undoubtedly will do, knowing that there's a great network of tunnels where else in munitions and all the rest of it are to store, is find them, destroy them. And if they can find any control centres, we'll destroy them as well. And if along the way,

they're able to round up any Hamas fighters and leaders, so much the better. But a lot of civilians are going to die, aren't they? At what point, as I asked Orly, at what point does proportionate become disproperation? It becomes disproportionate if to the watching world, the actions of the IDF are not as careful and measured as they can possibly be. Of course, in any situation, you're going to use violence, you're going to use force, and there will be an awful term, some degree of collateral damage.

But so long as that's kept to the minimum, and it really does come back to this issue of the hospital being struck yesterday. It is a hospital that's run by the Church of England. It's run by the Diocese of Jerusalem. it was struck on Saturday last week and the diocese of Jerusalem got in touch with the Israeli government and said that's our hospital. I'm absolutely certain

that any clear thinking military planner on the IDF side would not then strike at a hospital again. And of course the other side, this gets back to exactly the issue of proportionality. Of course they'd want to strike that. Of course they'd want to kill as many people as they can but it's so easy to blame it on the IDF

and the whole world's narrative changes. And that's what's got to be changed back the other way. people are already saying three and a half to four thousand Palestinians have already died that's just in 10 days since what happened so that is nearly three times the death toll of October the 7th with every image we see of a dead child in Gaza of a dead woman whatever it may be the anger grows amongst the Muslim population around the world but seeing that today How does peace get found through all this? How do you get to peace?

You know, there's something I want to raise here because for the last 11 days, and we saw that even more so yesterday evening and today is in the headlines. Many mainstream broadcast and newspaper decide to use Hamas lines as official Palestinians say when we know that Hamas have been the one who've been murdering us

and have no mercy for Israelis, for Jews. They still hold at least 200 people, Israelis hostages. We don't know their situation. So to take Hamas as an official source of information, I think is really worrying. I think journalists today need to really think about the headline that they choose

and the wording that they choose. And if they're not sure about some information, they need to verify. Yeah, I was shocked last night. I'll be honest, when I was seeing the BBC and ITN and others, all just assuming it was an Israeli airstruck because I'm asked to hold them. I mean, I found that absolutely reckless.

And if I can add, the words that are choosing have implications throughout the whole... Of course, we saw the implications. You saw immediate protests breaking out outside Israeli embassies all around the region. These are dangerous consequences of reckless talk. General, we look at this with very bleak hearts, I think. You know, the prospect for peace has never seemed further away, but also the prospect for this spiraling out of control into something much more serious

also seems to have never been more potentially a scenario we should look for. What do you feel? Well, I think you're absolutely right. Of course, the sadness is go back just a few weeks and months. Then there was a warming of relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia and the UAE, and that was actually very hopeful. Now, who was going to stand to lose out of that? Basically, it's Iran.

Yes. So we know that Iran has a major influence over Hamas, but you raise the issue of escalation. The thing that really worries me is Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. The last time I was in Israel, it was made quite clear to me that the amount of rocketry and missiles that Hezbollah has got could cover and strike the whole length and breadth of Israel. And the Iron Dome system as good as it is runs the risk of being overwhelmed.

And the IDF made it quite clear to me that if that happened, they will really have no option, but to retaliate in a major way. And that might even include striking targets in Iran. So we absolutely have to hope and pray that this does not escalate. And I think Iran is benefiting to a degree that we're now seeing a cooling of relationships between Israel and Saudi Arabia and the UAE.

But I think that's as far as they probably want to go, because if there's a real meltdown, then Iran is going to find itself really isolated. And we mustn't forget, President Biden flew across, but there's two carrier groups in the Eastern Mediterranean. The United States is investing itself very heavily in a military and an obvious way and also saying very closely to Israel,

we support you. Rishi Sunak on his way there now. I think it's tragic that a lot of major media organizations that should have known better jump to a conclusion unverified. Which increasingly looks like the least likely conclusion, actually. I mean, the BBC's Verified group appeared to have almost established,

beyond much doubt, actually, that this was highly likely to have come from inside Gaza. And if you stop to think about it, that was always likely to be the outcome. I mean, what did the idea have to gain? They're actually much cleverer, they're much better at targeting than that.

You did not need to put a large explosive ordinance into a Christian-run hospital, which had thousands of people taking shelter there. It just defies any kind of military logic. You've done it. I've got to leave you there. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. Oli Gorswolde, thank you very much indeed for coming in. I appreciate it.

with me talk to be contributor Esther Cracker, including your journalist, Avis Antina, and from America, Fox Nation host, Tommy. We'll let me start with you, Tommy, because I'm going to say something that I know will horrify you. But I thought Joe Biden did quite a good job today, A, in continuing to come across to the region when a lot of his supposed hosts pulled out, which could have been seen as embarrassing for him, but also getting some humanitarian commitment from Israel, and perhaps offering some calming perspective

on what is a very incendiary situation. Your thoughts to me offering a modicum of praise to President Biden? You know, I appreciate it because I'm an American, so I would hope that our president looks strong to the rest of the world, so I'm glad that you had that takeaway. Unfortunately, I did not. When I saw him sitting on stage with Benjamin Netanyahu and fumbling through index cards,

probably written by a green-haired intern, I was honestly embarrassed. Furthermore, referring to Hamas as the other team was also quite embarrassing for me to watch. I'm happy that our president has had steadfast commitment to Israel and has pushed back at members of our own Congress who have been seemingly pro-Hamas. I am happy about that. Also, though, a little disturbed that he has committed $100 million of our taxpayer dollars to go to what he refers to as a humanitarian effort in Palestine and in Gaza. assuring us that would go to civilians and not terrorists, although giving us no indication of how he would be able to separate the two,

just as he told us that that $6 billion that he unfroze to Iran would not be used for terrorism. I'm not sure how he can assure us of that. But I'm happy to see that there are some folks on the other side of the pond that think our president looks strong. Here in America, that might not be the case for us watching all of this unfold. I had a sneaking feeling you wouldn't necessarily agree with me. And then we come to you, Esther. You were just saying in the break, an interesting thing.

It's been an awful since October the 7th. We've all felt a real sense of heartache of what we're watching, fear about what may happen next. Yeah, it's been awful. And, you know, the thing is, because there is such a potential for this to become catastrophic and an all-out regional war and potentially a world war, actually the bar is pretty low.

So, yes, I do agree with you in the sense that Joe Biden didn't completely destroy things. But the bar is very low. I mean, this is still a doddering old man. He described Hamas, which effectively were responsible for firing the misfire into that hospital car park as the other team. This is not a game of monopoly. They're no clear winners and losers here. And for him to take a stroke of diplomatic genius, for him to be able to properly relay the complicated nature of this crisis.

And he's just not up to the task. There's so many things he's not up to the task for. And unfortunately, this is the president that we have at the helm of this crisis. We just have to hope he doesn't make things worse. Ava, this whole thing now comes down to me to what is a proportionate response by Israel to the atrocities we saw on October the 7th. There are many on the left who simply don't want to be seen to condemn

publicly what happened on October, which I find staggering. I mean, just a human being just has to condemn what happened. But what is a proportionate response? What is Israel supposed to do in the wake of such a horrific series of attacks? Well, as someone with no military background, I don't think I'm the one to answer that question. And I do think... But morally, what do you think they should? Morally, I do think the left have condemned Hamas.

And I do think, you know, Hamas are terrorists. And I do think that is something the left is saying. The argument, which has changed dramatically this week, is now about humanitarian aid. Last week, it looked like we weren't going to assist in getting any aid into Gaza. And I think that was a huge concern for people. The narrative on that has changed now. And you know, I actually... And it's changed because of President Biden's visit, I think.

Well, I was going to say, I agree with Tommy Lauren there. And I actually... Today actually made me quite proud. to be British because I thought that soon act today at Prime Minister's questions, I thought that was a real president. I thought, sorry, Prime Minister, I thought that was statesman-like. I thought not taking a decision or not taking an opinion or a

view on that hospital bombing until you were absolutely certain. I think that's exactly where the West should be. But you know, the thing is, I think the talk about humanitarian aid, which is important, it's no longer good enough. There needs to be, we need to stop failing the Palestinians because that is what has driven them. I mean, Hamas haven't had elections

to 2006. I would say that sentence is problematic. for me because I think the plight of the Palestinians has been horrific for a long time, right? Nobody with a brain, I think, thinks otherwise. This has to be sorted. It has to be resolved. But you cannot use that as an excuse.

But for pulling Holocaust grandmothers out of their beds. Hamas are terrorists and they need to be destroyed. That's not an excuse. But the reality... There's no equivocation. It's not an excuse, but Israel will not prosper if Palestine does it. That is the reality.

Palestinian leaders have failed. their own people. Mahmoud Abbas is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Of course there are questions of whether all this humanitarian aid is going to go to the right people. It obviously will not. But the reality is because the focus has not been actually getting the Palestinians a kind of leadership where they deserve where money isn't being funneled into rockets to be fired into Israel instead of proper leadership into a cohesive police force, for instance. Israel will never be safe. It will never prosper. And neither were the Palestinians. And unfortunately, this has just reminded us how important that is to talk out.

Let's completely change topic because it's been a very serious show. And Tommy, I want to bring in you here because Richard Curtis, who wrote Love Actually and Notting Hill and all these great cheesy films, which I love, by the way, he's come out and said he was stupid and wrong for doing fat jokes in some of these films. And it's because his daughter, he's clearly pretty woke, Scarlett. She said to me, you could never use the word fat again. in my generation calling someone chubby was funny. Like in Love Actually, there were jokes about that. They're not funny anymore. Now, I'm not exactly size zero.

And I've had a lot of female panelists, co-hosts over the years, do little chubby jokes. And you know what it makes me do? A, I laugh. And B, I go to the gym. It has a double beneficial effect of my well-being and health. Tommy, are we getting just ridiculously oversensitive? Should we not just be able to still laugh about people if they're chubby? Yeah, there are far worse things to be called than fat or chubby.

But I'm actually far more concerned about the glorification of obesity, certainly something that we do here in the United States a lot. We look at Lizzo as some kind of an icon because she is grossly overweight. So when we're talking about hurting people's feelings, that's one thing. When you talk about encouraging unhealthy lifestyles and diabetes, that's quite the other. So, you know, fat, chubby, it doesn't make people feel nice. But when you glorify obesity, that's actually putting people in. real danger. You know, I wrote a column about this.

I think if we're going to choose between the two. Yeah. I wrote a column about this last week. Exactly on that point. Eva, it's interesting. There has been a weird kind of move to celebrate being morbidly obese. And by that, I mean, Cosmo putting people on the cover who are like

280 pounds and five foot tall where they're clearly killing themselves through their enormous weight. And yet they are celebrated like this is body positive. It's not. Why are we doing this? I mean, we did that for how many years, what, 20, 30 years before that, heroin chic. I agree, but that's the same. Just as damaging.

No, but that's what it is for most women who are on those covers. You know, most women aren't naturally a size six to eight, which is what you need to be on the, you know, to be on the front page of a magazine. And actually, they are killing themselves in the same way that you argue that if people are larger, they're not healthy, neither are the skinny.

I think they're both equally harmful. But on this Richard Curtis thing, I love Richard Curtis. I think he's an absolute genius. And they're a lovely family. but I sort of groaned and went, if I listened to everything my kids told me, right, about what I should and shouldn't do on this program.

I mean, it would just be a total disaster, as I've told them. It's cowardly. Not always, but sometimes. We can't judge people now based on the standards of the past. We keep doing this with slavery, with, you know, reparations, all of that. We keep saying, oh, they were so terrible, and I don't laugh for fat people, therefore I'm better. Guess what?

It's not news to fat people that they're fat, right? The fact that they're not people, you may not make jokes about them in your comedy doesn't negate the fact that when they look in the mirror, they see a large person. And to pretend like it's, it's, it's, It's a beautiful thing. Lizzo is so beautiful because she's attractive.

If I told you you look like Lizzo, you would punch me because that is not a compliment in any way, shape or form. That is true. You would. It's true. And you don't look like Lizzo. You're a healthy, beautiful, like, woman. So let's stop pretending.

You may not want to make jokes about it anymore. I wouldn't pass any comments about any of you in an aesthetic way because I would have to then march myself to human resources. But it's lovely to see you all. Thank you very much indeed. Tommy, great to see you over there. It was great to do your show the other day as well. Brilliant show.

thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you very much. And thanks for coming on again on Piers Morgan Unsensored. Thank you to the pack. That's it from me. Whatever you're up to, keep it uncensored. Good night.