Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Leka II, Crown Prince of Albania

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensored, Piers addresses climate change activists and young people's attitudes towards Churchill. Piers discusses Gavin Williamson's alleged bullying of a senior civil servant with Kevin Maguire, Esther Krakue & Ava Santina. Piers is joined by Albania's Crown Prince Leka II to discuss illegal immigration and the Home Secretary's 'invasion' comments. Piers speaks to one of Donald Trump's top advisors in the lead up to the US midterm elections. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 526, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight, I'm here's Morgan Unsensit. He was once voted the greatest ever Britain. Our new poll reveals today's generation. I think Winston Churchill is just a racist. What's behind this war on Western history? As critics claim Albania for Britain's migrant crisis, the country's crown prince joins me live to demand we show his country from respect. Plus, Americans prepare to vote in crucial elections which could dramatically reshape US politics or talk to one of Donald Trump's top advisors.

Live from London. This is Pearz Morgan Uncensored. Good evening, you've reminded. Welcome to Pierce Morgan Uncensored. COP 27 is underway. Build again is our last chance to save the planet. Well, spoiler alert, I doubt it will. Just like my last 26 last chances before it failed to deliver. Every year they arrive by private jets to pontificate on the end of the world.

And every year, with no sense of irony, they produce a staggering amount of hot air and deliver very little. The answer is not to renew our addiction to hydrocarbons and to give in. The answer is, and that's why I'm here, the answer is to accelerate the adoption of green solutions. Really? Is that really why you're there, Boris? Or is it because you're addicted to making everything all about you? Our Prime Minister, Rish Sunak, is there. That's all that needs to be there from this country.

Like CO2 in the atmosphere, Boris just doesn't want to go away. And he had plenty of time to make a difference himself. We've had 27 years of dire warnings at COP and 27 years of the problem only getting worse. This is what saving the planet looks like. Well, frankly, we better start looking for another one. And if you roll your eyes at the very mention of this subject, it's almost certainly because of people like this.

Why does it take young people? Clearly a graduate from the Matt Hancock School of Crying Without Tears. You know, it's been such a tough year for so many people and there's William Shakespeare, putting it so simply for everybody that, you know, we can get on with our lives. The problem is that nobody's listening to young people like that streaking banshee precisely because she's up on a bleeping gantry on the M25

and the thousands of people sitting below for hours of traffic mayhem are not to blame for climate change. They're just trying to get to work, far from persuading anybody. I believe these petulant protesters are hopelessly out of touch. They whine about their future, but they're also whining about our past.

Take this weekend survey from the Policy Exchange think tank, which showed just one in five young people now have a positive view of Sir Winston Churchill. Our great wartime leader, the man who faced down Adolf Hitler, and helped lead the world to freedom, is now derided as nothing but a racist. The climate change is as serious as the protesters, what you do believe it is, and by the way, I think it is a very serious issue. They should recognise we'd be a her level. lot more likely to solve it with people like Winston Churchill in charge.

Well, I'm joined now by Imman Aiton, who's organised her own Black Lives Matter protest, including the likes of actor John Beaga and Madonna, and royal historian and author Sir Anthony Seldon. So welcome to both of you. This is a really incendiary debate now. Never used to be. He used to be just everyone used to agree. Winston Churchill was a national hero who saved us from the Nazis, and that was it. But now he's not.

And I'll start him on by saying this. I understand why young people look back at some of the things that Churchill was recorded as saying, some of the views that he held, and I understand why it may colour the judgment about him, literally, actually. But I also believe you should take all great figures in totality. I agree.

Whether it's Gandhi, Mandela, Churchill, whoever it may be. and the welter of positives for Winston Churchill, to me, outweigh attitudes and occasional comments, which were by far the norm of that era and not, I wouldn't be tolerated today. And what's your reaction to that? I totally agree with you. So I don't actually harp on on the covert racism

or the kind of, you know, the comments like black people are savages and, you know, Indians are abesely race. I don't actually hold on to that because you're right. It was during those times, not that it's acceptable. We can safely say it wasn't. What I hold on to, for example, is, yes, he was a hero. I think I was given the same kind of narrative that most people were, that this is a British hero.

Admittedly, it was only when I saw Churchill as a racist, that graffiti that was written on his statue during Black Lives Matter, that prompted me, as a random person, to say, you know what, I'm going to go home and research Winston Churchill. And in doing that, I found the two things that resonated with me personally. The first was the four million Indians that died due to the Bengal famine, which was a direct result of Winston Churchill's decision-making. The second would have to be, hold on, hold on.

Fair enough, fair enough. But on that, I'll come back to you because that is simply not true. Okay, you can tell me why. The mythology that's built up around what happened, and I'll let the great historian fill in the blanks here. But there's a lot of mythology that's been fermenting about Churchill's culpability over the Bengal famine. But other, he didn't cause the famine.

The famine was caused by a cyclone. It was then massively exacerbated by a fall. failure to get resource and food into the area because of the war and because of Japan's stranglehold on the area and so on and so on. Churchill did direct other countries, including America and Australia, to try and send grain to Bengal. But he also prioritised when it really came to it British troops who were going to die of hunger as well. And as a British Prime Minister in a war, I'm not sure you can sincerely blame him. Which I've heard. And I totally agree with him. So my point is it's very easy to say that church

caused the famine and the death of 4 million people. But actually, when you get into the weeds about what happened there, that's simply not accurate historically. Well, I said it was due to his decision-making. Secondly, that's not the only thing that resonated with me. The second thing that resonated with me. The second thing that resonated with him appears was the fact that he built Kenyan concentration camp. So please school me and tell me I am wrong.

He built Kenyon concentration camp seven years after World War II, seven years after defeating fascism, seven years after getting rid of concentration camps. He decided after seven years of growth and learning and all of this peace and all of this amazingness that Britain has achieved, we're now going to build concentration camps. And not for Jews, this time it's going to be for Kenyans. And we're now going to start making pillars or sorry, rather like these kind of different instruments that literally crush and rip the testicles off of Kenyan men. And we're going to do that seven years after defeating Naziism. So yes, I've got a different perspective.

We've heard the view and it's a view clearly shared by a lot of young people. I mean, staggering these new statistics now of people who really dislike Churchill and have no respect for him. Well, I think it's partly the fact he was built up to be such a big figure. But for me, everything that has been identified that Imman is talking about

is important and needs to be weighed into the equation. Thank you, Anthony. That's all I want. That's what I want. Because we are all, mixtures of good and bad, every leader. And I think for young people to have the evidence and weigh it up, I'm just going to mention three good things he did. And by the way, I agree the treatment of the Kikuyu tribe in Kenya

during that period of suppressing Mao, was utterly deplorable. Seven years after World War II in the 1852 onwards. But this is what he did. He did on the welfare state. He was a core person building the welfare state before the First World War. And as Prime Minister in the Second World War, he oversaw the Beverage report and encouraged it, which has been enormously to the benefit. Secondly, he was the first politician to spot the end of the Cold War in 1953.

He made an extraordinary speech after the death of Stalin saying we can't carry on as he were. And thirdly, there was what he did in the Second World War, where Hitler, 6 million Jews, 50 million dead in that war, he did stand up when Britain was alone. So to give young people the evidence on both sides and let them come to their own judgment and to recognize that every leader, ask me, you, Pierce, everyone, is a mixture of good and bad.

But not monstrous, and that's my issue. Not everyone is a mixture of monstrous and hero. So good and bad is one thing, but being monstrous deciding to actually crush and wrecked testimony. All right. Take one of my heroes like Nelson Mandela. He was on the no-fly list for this country throughout most of the 70s, right? He was a man that many viewed to be a terrorist.

And then he came out and he turned out to be one of the all-time great peacemakers. Now, again, do you take his life in totality, Mandela, or do you say that actually anyone involved in any form of activity which could be classed to terrorism is a monster. And therefore, there is no chance for a public figure to redeem. Did Nelson Mandela sanction making pliers that crushed and ripped the testicles off of black men? Did Nelson Mandela do that, peers? What he did sanctioned was he sanctioned activity, which by today's standards would be construed as terrorists.

So we can safely say that, yes, everyone is gone and bad. I'm not negating that point. I think my point is that you can take almost any historical figure, and you can paint a picture, as Anthony said, of negative and positive. To me, what Churchill achieved in World War II overrides everything else. But why, though? So why does that supersede the fact that he caused thousands, tens of thousands of black deaths?

And potentially, again, it's arguable, but potentially his decision-making led to the deaths of millions of Indians. So what you're saying is the deaths. But what we can say categorically is what I said about the Kenyan concentration camp. So if you think that the Kenyan concentration camps wasn't monstrous, and what you're doing is you're negating the thoughts and feelings and experiences of everyone else. I don't know. I don't actually negate anything that Churchill did on the negative side. I think a lot of the things he said were certainly racially tinged at best.

But what about the things that he did? What about the pliers that I've just told you? No, no, we're not defending that at all, right? So that's the point. You need to balance the argument. I agree with anything. But my point is, my point is where on, right, but where on your balanced argument does the pendulum swing to saving the world from?

I agree. No, see, this is the thing. I'm not the extremist. I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Maybe you're used to those types of guests here. I'm not that type of person. I believe in balance. So I actually agree with you. I think he did incredible things. But I think it's also important to acknowledge that he also did really monstrous things. And we should present both arguments and allow people to establish. As indeed you have. Okay. So the sheer fact that we're having this discussion now that we are here able to talk is because he led this country to stand up against a fashion. dictator who, like many of the leaders in the world today, many want to China, Russia, North Korea and more, want to squeeze free debate, the kind of discussion we have at the moment.

We can go back, have our separate lies. We're not going to be put in... We wouldn't be having it under Nazi Germany, right? I agree with you. I'm not disputing your point. So give them the facts, and I think that perhaps it was inevitable. There was so much adulation of Churchill. There's now a steep. I mean, that's a really extraordinary figure. 80% of young people have a negative picture. I think that maybe in five years' time it will rebalance. I think myself will disagree, on this, that I think that it will be overwhelmingly positive about Churchill while not ignoring the downside. And I think if people can learn about humanity then, that the people's

flaws, including what he did or what he sanctioned as prime minister in the 19th. in Kenya, weigh all that, then that's real education. That's what history is about. I mean, there are proper arguments to be had about the carpet bombing of Dresden in World War II, which many people think was completely unacceptable. Churchill would argue if he was here, he's not, but if he was, he would argue it was a necessary evil to facilitate the hastening of the ending of the war. Now, a lot of people don't agree with that historically.

But if you're a wartime leader, you've got to make horrendous decisions. I totally agree with you. and I bring it back to just having an inclusive mindset and I think that's the issue here that many people seem to not or let me just put it this way I don't think people are disputing the fact that he's a hero I think that many people are disputing the fact

that he is also a monster and that is where the problem lies appears I'm not saying he's not a hero everything that you've just said everything that you just said I agree I think it's awesome but I also have to take into account that the Indian population that died potentially because of his decision making

probably wouldn't have called him a hero I have to take into account that the men that were having their testes Ripped from their bodies probably wouldn't call Winston Churchill a hero either. So again, it comes down to an inclusive mentality. When you take into account everyone's feelings, it becomes a lot harder to then definitively say someone is a hero or a villain. What you usually do is say they are both. You take into account they are racist.

You take into account that they are a hero and you take into account that they are. Anthony, final point on Churchill for our time to your book. Well, I think he sanctions some monstrous things. He did indeed. Personally, I don't think he was a monster. I think he had a deeply... So sanctioning monstrous... Compassionous things doesn't make you a monster.

Is that right, Anthony? Let's just make sure you're clear. If we do monstrous things, you're not a monster. Is that correct? I think that... Is that correct? Let me ask you a difficult question. Do you think the unleashing of two nuclear weapons in World War II,

Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was that justified? Was that monstrous? I think those types of things are monstrous. Anything that kills anyone answers and monstrous... Okay, so you're calling the American president that did that... A monster. Anyone that kills anyone else is a monstrous act, whether you want to see it like that and off. That brought to an end of war that would have killed many, many, many more people.

But it still doesn't negate the fact that it was monstrous to the people that died. And that's what I'm trying to say that you're now putting your feelings and white people's feelings and Jewish feelings. What about white people? Above everyone else that had a negative interaction with this man. It is. I think you let yourself down when you say that. White people, British people, the people that I typically, this is where I'm coming from, the people that I typically find defend Winston Churchill.

There have been many black, let's be honest with ourselves here. But I typically find it's majority white because we have this real kind of admiration for the man. And so a lot of people... Quite rightly, because he saved us from Nazi Germany. But we have to take in consideration that he was a monster. Nobody thinks he was an angel at all. But he took a lot of very difficult decisions.

But people are negating the fact that he is a monster. That is the issue. Be balanced. All right. You've made your point. Anthony, I want to just talk to quickly about your book. The path of peace walking the Western Frontway, couldn't be more timely, obviously, Remembering Sunday this weekend.

When you wrote this book, have we learned the lessons that led to the catastrophe of the First World War, do you think? So, no, categorically not. I mean, as I was walking that, the Third World War was in Ukraine, perhaps about to unfold. It was the vision of a young soldier peers who, uniquely, it would seem,

had a vision on building a path to peace, which I think is fundamental where we can have people. His vision was of all nations or face or backgrounds walking side by side together to try to learn from the dead from both sides. So I walked back last summer, a thousand kilometers, a million paces through soil where 10 million, 10 million had bled to death or had their lives totally wrecked in the effort of trying to build a path to peace. he was an extraordinary, visionary young man.

And so no, but it is by building understanding, building bridges with each other, I think maybe not rushing myself to condemn other people to understand why they did things that we have the best hope for humanity. And that's exactly why I wrote the book on the Western Front Way now is the world's biggest commemoration project. Everyone can walk it or cycle it.

It's going to become like the northern Camino. I think it was the best idea to come out of the First World War peers, even though it categorically hasn't ended the Second World War, and didn't stop the Second World War, and what other hope is there, unless we just walk together, respect our difference and indeed love each other for our differences. Which is an inclusive mentality, by the way, just so you know.

Well, I think we've respected each other's differences. Thank you. I wouldn't go as far as we love each other yet, but at night is young. Almost, almost. We're young. Sir Anthony Selden, great to see you. Iman Aitan, thank you very much for coming in. I appreciate it.

We're coming up. It's 12,000 Albanians arriving on small boats, an invasion. The Home Secretary thinks so. Crown Prince of Albania thinks definitively not. In fact, he's called it an improvement to British society. Will that debate next? Well, welcome back. Number 10 said tonight that a new deal preventing migrants leaving France to reach Britain is now in its final stages. Earlier, Rishi Sunak held talks to President Macron on the sidelines of COP 27.

But much of the debate about the crisis has been overshout. by criticism of Home Secretary Suella Braverman's use of language. The British people deserve to know which party is serious about stopping the invasion. It is not. If Labour were in charge, they would be allowing all the Albanian criminals to come to this country. They would be allowing all the small boats to come to the UK.

Well, the Crown Prince of Albania responded on Twitter, calling this disproportionate slander and purely xenophobic. So criminal gangs abusing wide-open British borders or a convenient scapegoer for a government that's lost control. Well, joining me now is Talk TV presenter Richard Tice and the Crown Prince of Albania, Prince Lecker. Well, thank you both indeed for joining me. If I can talk to you first, Prince Lecker.

Thank you very much for joining the programme tonight. I read your tweet with great interest. You were clearly incensed by the use of language by the Home Secretary. I share your anger at the language she used. I thought it was completely unnecessary. However, and it is an important, however, I think. I think the British people have been surprised to discover now that the majority of people

coming into the country illegally on these boats across the channel are now from Albania, which is not a war-torn country at the moment, and they're just bemused as to why this is happening. So let me start with Suella Bravom, views. Why were you so angered by those? Thank you very much, P.S, for welcoming me on your show. I'm in Tehran, and it's a wonderful opportunity to actually express the human aspect of this issue.

Today, this afternoon, I had a cordial conversation with the British ambassador, and he confirmed to myself, as well as he has reconfirmed to the Albania authorities, that the comments are not a reflection of the British government. and it's not the political stance of the British government towards Albania. And I would be very happy to say that Albania and the United Kingdom have fantastic relations. We are working on a number of multilateral stances. We are allies in the war in Ukraine. Albania is a co-signer in the Security Council in protecting the rights and freedoms of the Ukrainians.

Albanians are actively working within the confounds of NATO and making sure that we are a proud contributor. We've welcomed over 4,000 refugees from Afghanistan to Albania. We are continuously trying to work on different fronts. We are currently under attack from Iranian cyber warfare, which has had huge impacts on our cybernestic infrastructure. And And we are on the forefront of this global stance of freedom. But obviously, the stance and the rhetoric which has been used in the general media has had an impact. And I have taken this unorthodox stance going away from the royal position of silence. And I thought that it was needed that we have to mention that the majority of Albanians in the UK are hard.

working individuals. We have, and the 12,000 Albanians, in considering the proportionality of the situation, the United Kingdom has over 6.5 million immigrants. 12,000 Albanians cannot be considered an invasion. And I'm very sad that this harsh tone of events is having impacts on the hard-working Albanians currently living in England. I've spoken to family friends who are in the UK, and some of them have actually pulled their children out of schools because they feel that this xenophobic attitude is reflecting on their lives. And this is why I took this unorthodox stance

and actually making a few comments at very late at night on Twitter because I believe very strongly that we have to find tangible results of overcoming this issue and building upon the very strong relations that we Albanians and the UK have together. Have you had any conversation

with the new Prime Minister Rishi Sunak about this? I have not. And I know that's the Albanian Prime Minister is in contact and his community aid. And he has also come out with a very, very strong stance that this is not a reflection of the fantastic relations that we have as two different countries. Okay. The bilateral relations can't be improved. Okay. Let me bring in Richard Tice here. Richard, there's a lot of agitation in the UK about these new statistics, which seem to be suggesting, that there is a large number of young Albanian men coming in illegally

and the suspicion is that many of them are coming to join gangs in the UK. Now, it's hard to assess, I guess, exactly what percentage may be and quite clear that many of them will be legitimate and genuine asylum seekers and refugees. Where do we draw the line here? What is your view of this? Well, at peers, I'm the person that broke the story. a few months ago that four in ten of the migrants are coming from Albania, a NATO member, and as the Crown Prince quite rightly says, we have good relations.

And the vast, vast majority of Albanians are wonderful people. And we go on holiday there and vice versa. But let's remember, peers, these people are coming here in these boats illegally. They are illegally entering the country, about 12,000 of them now, when actually Albanians can happily, legally, lawfully come on a six-month visa. They can come and work in the United Kingdom. It costs them a few hundred pounds to get such a visa. So if they are legitimate, decent, good, law-abiding citizens of Albania

that want to come and contribute to British society, why are they not coming legally and lawfully? The only reason that they would pay 10 times that amount to come on a perilous journey and a small boat across the channel regrettably is because they may have different objectives. We know that it's a question of fact that Albanian criminals are the largest group of foreign nationals in our jails, and we know that many of these Albanians

are disappearing within days and going to join the Albanian criminal gangs that have now completely taken over and brutally, violently dominated our cocaine trade, our cannabis trade in a horrific way in the towns and cities across the country. They're making vast, vast profits. They need more foot soldiers to get rid of the huge profits.

They're money laundering through car washes. They're setting up barbers shops in towns and high streets across the country, even candy shops now. And, you know, the British people have had enough. And the Home Secretary expressed the frustration of millions and millions of British people that this criminal activity has to stop. It's no reflection of the wonderful Albanians that the Crown Prince mentioned. It is a reflection of the deep concern about the significant, brutal, violent Albanian criminal gangsters

that are causing chaos, violence and murder on our streets. Okay. Let me put this back to the Crown Prince. I mean, there's some interesting statistics here where in 2020, 50 Albanians arrived on these small boats. In 2021, 800 and in 2022, 12,000. So there is clearly a massive seismic shift in numbers here. And it is true, as Richard Ties says, that there are currently 1,336 Albanians imprisoned in England and Wales, and that is the highest foreign nationality incarcerated in that year.

So there is clearly a problem with a criminal element here, and the number that are now making the crossing is exponentially rising at such a rate that it would seem to suggest that this can't. be divorced in many of these cases from potential criminality. What would you say to that? Well, the first thing, I'm a advocate of free movement. And it's not true that Albanians are given the opportunity to travel freely in the United Kingdom. They're not issued visas. And when you are forced, you're not given that opportunity of free movement, a lot of youngsters

from not only Albania, but the majority of Albanians are coming from other European countries because of the pandemic and because of the foreseen recession, which Europe is going to be facing in the next two years. So a lot of these young Albanians are trying to find means and methods of crossing into Europe. And unfortunately, once they take that route, which is the illegal route, they are the victims of gangs, organized crime. And this is something which I have spoken to you, Ambassador, but I'm trying to promote in the sense that we have.

We have to find tangible ways of making sure that Albanians are able to travel securely to the UK. And the majority, 53% of Albanians who do go to the UK are got legitimate concerns. They have different issues and they are given permission to stay. Those elements which are forced to go through the illegal routes often don't have the opportunity in that freedom to go back to Albania. And we all know that the new modern TikTok Instagram view of immigration in the UK is a blurred image of reality. And I believe if working with the Albanian government, working with the corporations on the international level, we're able to provide this free movement.

Majority of Albanians who go with this false impression of a glorious life in the UK will return. I do take hindrance that the majority of Albanians are going to go into crime. A lot of Albanians want to be proactive. They see England as a fantastic country which has provided over the generation's servitude. My own family in 1939, when Albania was invaded by the fascists, we went to the UK. We were given refuge, and it's something which I resonated very, very much myself. Myself was educated in the UK, and I was given the opportunity to join the Royal Military Academy

Santeros, where I commissioned as a officer. And I see that we have a very strong friendship. But I don't like this improportionate. And we're talking about proportionality of the British narrative focusing on Albanians. When at the same time, we were talking about the month of June, where we had 100 more Albanians than other countries. And legitimately, other countries from the Middle East as well as Africa have different issues.

Can I ask you, when you said you should not be the focus of this debate. When you said you spoke to the British ambassador, did the British ambassador directly apologise to you for the use of language by the Home Secretary, the use of the phrase invasion? So we don't, nor has Albania requested the apology, because we understand that there is a very strong internal debate within the UK. The situation is very intense, and it's our stance not to be involved in local politics of the United Kingdom. I think Albania has its own intense politics, and I've heard very strong words from the Albania opposition.

Understand, leave that a lot of Albanians travelling to the UK are Albanians who are from the right of the political spectra that don't find opportunities within the country. But understand the origins of Albania. Albania was a country which for over 50 years was a victim of the harshest regime of communism. We've come out of communism, finding ourselves in a prolonged transition period, which has had an enormous effect on the lives of the people. And many Albanians who are getting a wage of less than 250 pounds a month want to see a change. And although Albania is a developing country and a country which is having incredible tourism over the last years, encouraging foreign investment,

a lot of these benefits are not been seen by the majority of young Albanians in the villages. So there are issues which I hope that we will be able to tackle, but we have to tackle this together. This is a need. I understand. Let me give a final word there to Richard. Richard, has anything the Crown Prince said

made you think again about your position on this? Not at all, Piers. I would remind the Crown Prince, we don't have a free movement arrangement, with Albania. We do have a visa scheme. I checked it today. It's £259. You'll get a decision within three or four weeks. No one is forced to come illegally to the United Kingdom in small boats and many of them disappearing, as I say, within days to join gangs just recently. A number of them were caught in cannabis farms. We know that some Albanian criminals who've just been

deported within days have come back across the channel in boats. I think the Crown Prince needs to reflect on the fact that, unfortunately, there is a significant criminal element who are coming to the United Kingdom and who are brutally, violently, targeting our towns and cities, making illegal profits, and it's got to stop. We've heard both sides of the argument very loudly and clearly. Richard Tice, thank you very much. And Crown Prince, I do really appreciate you coming on the programme. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, sir. It's a pleasure.

Thank you. in the cabinet, and already back to embarrassing the government. This time I have a foul-mouthed text to a female colleague. And as I speak, tonight is a new report in The Guardian saying that a senior civil servant claims Williamson told them to slit your throat. Charming. Is it time to get rid of this hapless goon one more time?

Welcome back to Pais's Morgan Unsensing. Gavin Williamson, back in government, the words you feared you'd never hear again. He was sacked, of course, as a defence secretary for leaking sensitive military information to journalists. He was sacked again as Education Secretary after the chaos over exams during COVID. And then, of course, he was rewarded with a knighthood, because that's the way our system works here. Here he is, failing to apologise to me for his government's unlawful conduct over COVID contracts.

Are you sorry, you acted unlawfully, yes or no? Well, the government would never aim to act unlawfully, and obviously we would never... You did, you acted unlawfully and were found guilty of it. So are you sorry? And of course... Why do you guys find it so hard if we're not... in the situation where the decisions we've taken have been upheld by a judge. That's certainly something we're never aimed to do.

So you're sorry? Deeply regret it, yes. Thank you, thank you. Eventually, it's like blood out of a stone, wasn't it? Anyway, breaking news tonight. First of all, T, if you don't know the background to this, he's been branded unacceptable by the Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, who, to my mind, bafflingly, brought him back to the government,

despite being warned that he'd been bullying people again. This was over trying to bully his way into the Queen's funeral. And then he, of course, was rude and obnoxious to the Chief Wim at the time. Is it time he gets fired for a third time? I'm joined by my Mystella pact tonight. Talk to you, V. Jester Cracko, political journalist Ava Santina, and Daily Mirror, Associate Editor, Kevin McGuire. And in a moment, we're going to talk also about the crucial

of midterm elections in America with Donald Trump's former senior advisor Jason Miller. So a lot to get through tonight. Let me start with the pact know about Gavin Williamson. A, the moment I heard that he'd been sending vile text, A, it was the least surprising news of the millennium. And B, I thought there are going to be a million other texts, right? This guy, the only reason he could possibly get so many jobs

is he's so vile to everybody, and he knows all their secrets because he was the chief whip. So they keep promoting him to keep his mouth shut. The Guardian tonight, a senior civil servant, claims Gavin Williamson told him to slit your throat in what they felt was a sustained campaign of bullying, while his defence secretary. The MOD official told the Guardian,

Williamson made the extraordinary amongst one of other civil servants in a meeting on a separate occasion told them to jump out of a window. I mean, this is unbelievable. It is, and Sunnac damaged himself by bringing him back because he stood on the steps of Dan industry and said, I'm going to rule with integrity. Where is the integrity of bringing back Sagar,

who is a known bully? And what Williamson will really worry about is there will be more texts and messages and emails because you can dispute. There'll be thousands. Because it's his currency. It's all his got. Why else would he be there?

Esther, why else would he be there? But the problem is, if that's the case, no one will be in our politics, because that's the culture of Westminster. These people rise with the rank. I say like that, that's normal. That's not a normal thing to say. Well, it's not a normal thing to say.

But I just... People who have used to be going to slit their thrice. You don't ask that. How many exes? I'm joking. But I think the problem is... Actually, you make a point. I mean, I know from my time running a newspaper,

you know, you speak to Alice. to Campbell long enough when he was running communications for Tony Blay, B-Fing and blinding and threatening everybody. I think this has been historically the kind of language they all think they need to use. We're in different times now. But I think that's what's grating. That's the problem.

We're trying to transition into a politics that's more respectable, that's more cordial, but it hasn't happened yet. You know, I always draw up sort of parallels to David Cameron, for instance, because I said Pretty Patel, if she was in David Cameron's government, she would have been fired, actually. She wouldn't have been let to get on with this kind of bullying of civil servants. And I said that Boris is, because he has no standards in this cabinet, he's going to keep her on. And I think Rishi has to try his best to move away from that.

But obviously, you can't if you bring this person back into government. So it's really difficult. Exactly. You kind of have to bring people with relevant experience, but that don't have this baggage. And that's all of them. All of them have this. I saw Sekeir Starmor at the football. I don't know if he knows this, but Arsul beat Chelsea away.

We're both gooners. So we were actually celebrating. And actually, I was also to be with Kendrick Lamar, the rap star. Because that's the kind of crowd that I hang with at a weekend. Actually, he used to be a Tottenham fan. He's not an asshole fan. Whoa. That's weird. Which was a great... A great flex.

But it was interesting talking to Keir Stahman, because he was very like... And I was thinking, you must be reveling in all this. He went, my whole mantra to the shadow cabinet is no complacency. That the enemy now is complacency. Do your jobs. Do them well. Don't get complacent. Which I thought was very actually good advice. But it must be difficult not to be a little bit. Is there any end to this with the Tories?

I mean, one thing after another, they bring back Suella Braverman. She's straight back into Moore's scandal. They bring back Gavin Williamson. He's going to probably have to go now for telling people to slit their throats. I mean, the Tories are basically handing the next government to me to labor on a plate. Well, they are in a sense. But, I mean, I don't think Labor can get too excited yet because they haven't actually trialed any policy. So the only reason that they are ahead in the polls is because the Tory government is in such shambles.

Going back to what you said, actually, about Priti Patel and David Cameron, I think that has a lot to do with fragility. And I think that the reason that Rishi Sunaak has to keep people like Gavin Williamson and Suella Braveman in his cabinet is because if they're on the back benches, they're much more of a danger to him than if they're in his cabinet, you know, causing this sort of thing is, if you had someone with kind of the more right-wing acumen of Suehman of not with the same baggage, not with the lack of attacked. I think she's a completely tackler as politician. She would be threatened because she knows that none of her behavior will be acceptable. And that's just seeing it could support for someone else. Not all Tory MPs, behave like Gavin Williamson or. No, I'm not.

My prediction is he'll be gone by the end of the week. Because it's going to be a thousand more text messages like, you don't just come out with these things once or twice. It's clearly his motorsop around. We're pulling teeth at this point, aren't we? Sunnick's line, which we heard from Grant Shaps, the Transport Secretary, is it happened before he was brought back. It doesn't matter.

No, because it's just too embarrassing. You mentioned bringing things back tonight, the New York Post, just in. Former President Donald Trump has told allies he could announce a 2024 presidential run tonight at a rally for a higher Republican Senate candidate, J.D. Vance. The Post has learned. Well, let's bring in Jason Miller, a former senior advisor, to President Trump.

Jason, welcome to the program. Great to have you on. Huge anticipation that Donald Trump may even announce as early as tonight. He's going to run again. My guess is he will run again pretty much whatever happens the midterm, short of every candidate he's promoted, losing, which I think is unlikely. Let me ask you a question, though. You work closely with the man. Is it a good thing for America if Donald Trump runs again with a 50-50 chance, perhaps, of winning the White House again? Well, I'm obviously a Trump partisan. I work for him in both 2016 and 2020, and so I very much

want to see Trump come back in 2024. I think what we've seen in the U.S., with the economy going downhill with the inflation, all the things that everybody realizes and why we're going to have this tidal wave of an election tomorrow. That's all part of the reason why I want to see President Trump come back. But I think more importantly, peers on the global stage, when you have a weak American democracy, a weak leadership in the White House, it reverberates all the way across the world, and you see the rise of Russia, the rise of China, and all the bad guys don't have anyone to push back on them. There's a very interesting moment this week, I thought, when the rising Republican star is the Florida governor, Ron DeSant, is expected to get easily reelected

in the midterms. And Trump suddenly has been, you know, sort of not saying anything publicly, but knifing him privately, suddenly did it publicly. Let's take a look. Let's see, there it is. Trump at 71. Ron DeSanctimonious at 10%. Now, I've got to hand it to Trump. He is a master of giving people very damaging, mocking, nicknames, but it also opened up this very real possibility now that he does get challenged by Desantis, who is pretty near half his age, done a very good job in Florida, he's very popular there, and is seen as the sort of Trump without all the baggage and madness. What do you make of Desantis? And was it helpful for Trump to do this right before an important election for

the Republicans? Yeah, great question. So in a conventional lens, if you look through this, it would make no sense to go after Ron DeSantis now, right before he. election, DeSantis are going to win in a landslide in Florida help carry a number of the Republicans across the finish line. But very clearly, President Trump does not look at things through a traditional political lens. If he had, he probably wouldn't have won in 2016 or come as close as he would have had in 2020. I think President Trump clearly is thinking about DeSantis, knows that DeSantis is likely to challenge him, even in a Republican primary if Trump says that he's running. And so he decided that heading into Tuesday, he's going to throw a little love tap, as they'd

say here in New York at Governor DeSantis. So it caught a lot of people off guard. They're upset by it. But clearly President Trump's looking ahead to 2024. President Biden, I mean, I would imagine if you're the Republicans, the words you're praying for are I'm running again because Biden looks half-gargar and he's approaching 80 years old. Yeah. And there's a counterintuitive point here in that Trump announcing early could also force Joe Biden

to announce early. Keep in mind, Biden's only real value proposition is that he defeated. President Trump in 2020. A lot of Democrats do not want Joe Biden running in 2024. They want him to step aside, let in someone else like Gavin Newsom or Gretchen Whitmer or one of the other governors around the country. So if Trump announces early, then he get Biden early. It might lock him in. That could actually be a big boon for President Trump. Whereas if President Trump were to delay, maybe the Democrat leadership can get to him and convince Biden, you know what, it's... I'll be looking, just quick answer. I'll be looking for a slam-

dunk red wave where they take the House and the Senate? Yeah, big huge red wave. You've seen about a 30, 35 point shift with independence just over the last month. The bottom has completely fallen out for Democrats. Even CNN is saying that races such as the Senate contest in New Hampshire are up for grabs. I think Republicans come out of this with 53, maybe 54 Senate seats, big majority in the House. This is going to be not just a and that would of course, I'll end any attempt, any chance of Biden doing anything more substantial while he's president and we'll open up the whole table. Although that's a good thing.

Yeah. Folks like myself say that. That's a good. It actually is a change some stuff. But it's just more his demeanor, which is so embarrassing, I think, for America. Jason, before I let you go, you're involved with this website, Getter. Elon Musk has taken over Twitter, obviously, so technically your rival. What do you make of Elon Musk?

Very quickly, if you don't mind? Yeah, obviously Elon Musk is a rival now that he's the head of Twitter. But you have to support what he's trying to do, try to bring some normalcy. to Twitter, an organization that's gone very far to the left end, a lot of political discrimination. Of course, the election 2020 and the Hunter Biden laptop. I have to support them there. Pierce, I don't think the culture in Twitter can be changed. That's the only reason why platforms together and others. Jason, I've got to leave you there. Thank you very much. I agree with this. It's going to be very difficult. If anyone can do it, it'll be a genius like Musk.

Jason, thank you very much. Thank you. Well, next tonight, we'll just go to the break. We'll come back and talk to the pack about this, because Trump's return may be the dominant story for the next few months. And a bit of I'm a celebrity with old Hancock. Wait, you know I said this show's called uncensored. We're actually going to censored that because that's Madonna's new album from her bedroom.

So embarrassing. Why doesn't she just give it up, honestly, appalling? A quick reaction for the pact to Donald Trump. Kevin. Yeah, we'll know how effective he is or not when you see the midterms of candidates here. He backed. But if I was a Democrat, and I agree they don't want Biden,

but I'd want Trump. I wouldn't want Descanus. David, do you agree with that? Why on earth would you want that? We're looking at an all-out war on reproductive rights that could transcend across the lives. I also think Trump could win. He's a little bit above politics. Trump could win because even though he's not the ideal,

he still does have a lot of sort of cachet with the Republican base. But the problem is Democrats' worst nightmare would be DeSantis because he is Trump without all the baggage. He is, but he also hasn't quite got the charisma of Trump. And charisma goes a long way in American votes, as we know. But he doesn't alienate it in the same way. And look, we heard Trump was a jork on the world stage. Putin would have loved him in place for the Ukraine war.

But you see, the thing is, the Republicans as well, they have all the talent. They have a lot of, they have Nikki Haley, they have the lady from Arizona. They have, you know, Desanis. Exactly. They don't have any shortage of talent. Who do the Democrats have, Pete Buttigieg? But imagine about 320 million people we end up with Trump Biden, too, the rematch. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It would be unbelievable. 1.80 and one heading towards 80. But, Peter, the other point with Trump is now, democracy itself is on the ballot paper, when he will not accept the result of the elections. Because so many of the candidates are election deniers. I know. Agree, the election is stolen.

Let's talk about, talking about people with no charisma, Hancock with emphasis on the con. You're going and we think on Wednesday into the jungle. It's just fantastic television, isn't it? I'm so excited. Why? I hate this about myself. I'm like racing.

No, I actually agree with you. I was asked that I was waiting, hoping he would appear. Just so I can vote for him to do despicable things. I can, you know, effectively hurl stuff through the screen at him. There's poetic justice. What you did? But there is a serious point, Kevin, which is his constituents. I mean, where is this guy? Oh, they've got to kick him out in Suffolk.

They have to. And again, Sunak's authority is challenged. He's taken away, suspended the whip, but he's got to say this bloat will never be a Tory MP again. You'll never be in politics again. Who do you think is going to win? I'm a celebrity. Do you know what the thing is? I think he thinks he's going to win.

Give me a name. You are. You're going to win it, Pearce it today. I did say he's the only reason I would go in. We'd be to take him off. Jill Scott, the Four England, like... She's impressive. I don't watch it.

I think Mike Tindle or boy George, myself. Yeah, I think that's... The Hancock would be made to eat kangaroo nuts by Thursday night. Thank you to my pack. That's it for me. Keep it uncensored. Good night.