Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Luis Rubiales Moment of Madness, Trump Mugshot, I had a Dream 60 Years On

Episode Date: August 28, 2023

On tonight' episode of Piers Morgan Uncensored, Rosanna Lockwood sits in for Piers and debates whether Luis Rubiales' kiss was a moment of madness or football's METOO Movement. Rosanna looks into Donald Trump's mugshot was and blessing in disguise for his campaign and 60 years on from Martin Luther King's 'I had a Dream' speech, how much has come true? Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Football boss represents the very worst of society. Luis Rubialis insists he will not quit. Was it just a moment of madness? Or is this a me-to moment for football? We'll debate. The million dollar mug shot, Trump's jailbird snap, was expected to humiliate the former president and prove that justice applies to all.

But was it a gift wrap boost for his campaign? Plus 60 years ago, Martin Luther King had a dream. How much of it has come true? From the news building in London, this is Pearce Morgan Uncensored with Rosanna Lockwood. Good evening, welcome to Pierce Morgan Uncensored with me, Rosanna Lockwood in a chair for a final week for peers still away. Now, that kiss at the Women's World Cup, it's a story that's not going away, is it? In fact, it's suddenly getting stranger. Today, the mother of Luis Rubialis announced she's locked herself in a church in Spain and is on a hunger strike in protest against what she.

she's calling the inhuman hunt against her son. And I don't doubt it's been stressful for her and Rubialis and their whole family, watching his reputation disintegrate. The mob justice of social media and news is an overwhelming thing to experience. But I'm afraid that's where my sympathy ends, because the responsibility of all of this lies at Rubialis's own feet, not only for the stupid kiss itself, but the way he and the Spanish Football Federation have handled everything since.

He is the enemy that he's looking for in all of this. And if he had a shred of self-awareness or humility, he would realize that. The president of Spain's top women's league actually put it best when she said, quote, his ego is greater than his dignity and honor. I mean, to be quite frank, gentleman acknowledges when he's wrong. And an apology, an acknowledgement, if it had done adequately, it might have been an embarrassing admission of failure for him, but the story would be over already.

Instead, Rubiales is doubling down. It was a kiss, a spontaneous kiss. I know that there's a still picture with both my hands paralyzed, but I'm going to recount the complete sequence now. It was spontaneous, mutual, euphoric and consented, which is the key. Do you think I have to resign? Well, I'm going to tell you something. I will not resign.

No, I will not resign. No, I will not resign. While all of this is now completely overshadowing, Spain's amazing World Cup win, and that's something else Rubiala should be really ashamed of. And a reminder, there is a reason, this is all being described as Spain's Me Too moment. It's not just a fight about a kiss,

it's a fight about being listened to. When a woman says she didn't consent to something, believe her. Joining me to discuss all this is Spanish. football journalist Semra Hunter. And in the studio, we've got socialist author Grace Blakely and Talk TV's Esther Crackoo. All three of you. Thank you for rejoining me. We actually discussed all this with you last Thursday.

And Semra, so much has happened since then. Are you shocked by the developments that have taken place? Yes. I really am. It just is getting crazier, wilder, stranger, stranger, more bizarre by the moment, by the day. And yes, there is so much that's been unfolding over the last few days since we spoke. Obviously, FIFA has suspended Luis Rubialis provisionally for 90 days.

He is not to do anything related to football in any way she performed as it relates to a national, international level. He is not allowed to have any contact with Jenny Armoso of any kind, either directly or through a third party. That goes for the Federation as well. We have since heard from Jorge Vildare, putting out a statement that was quite honestly

not the most sincere, I would say, considering that he's such a fervent support of Luis Rubialis, made no mention of Jenny Armosso whatsoever of any kind. And his whole coaching staff just about walked out as well on Saturday. Beyond that, there were six or seven members who also resigned after that incredible speech on Friday. It has since come to light that the whole reason why Luis Rubialis tried to make everyone believe that he was going to stand down was because you need to have a quorum. You need to have a 50% attendance rate in order for a.

a meeting to happen. And because so many people were dropping up, they didn't want to go, he basically lured them into going by saying he was stepping down. So there were a lot of incredulous people in the audience as well, because they did not expect to hear what they heard. On top of that today, the criminal court has opened up proceedings against him, because as we mentioned, I think, on Thursday, because of that law, which is called on the yes-as-yes, which has to do with consent, if there is no consent, then it is considered a crime. So there have been four, official complaints that went through to the courts to the prosecutor's office of Madrid. They took it to the national court. And now they are going to look at this as a potential criminal case and as

an alleged or a potential active sexual aggression. So he's got it coming at him from all different angles right now. And right now the Federation is also still undergoing their emergency meeting, which started at 4 o'clock this afternoon, where they're debating what to do about all of this mess. On top of that, this general secretary asked UEFA to suspend the Spanish Federation as a way of trying to threaten the Spanish government. And if they were to do so, then no Spanish club could feature in any European competition. It's just insane. And you already mentioned, his mother. Yeah, his mother.

I mean, come on, Samarach, because, I mean, yeah, the bureaucratic administrative side of it is astonishing. And so many different sides challenging each other saying, we're not going to play for you anymore. You're not going to be allowed in this association. We're going to file proceedings. But the mother at the center of this all, I mean, surely his biggest defender. You would have not. And now apparently she even has a support group of about 100 people who have turned up to, I guess, cheer her on or make her feel better or just support her. Because obviously, I mean, as a mother, she's going through a very difficult moment, even though it is a bit of an extreme way to try and,

handle the situation but I suppose she is under extreme amount of duress at the moment because her son is quite literally public enemy number one let's bring in our studio guest Esther and Grace as he had chimed in there on the mother no one other point I mean you know a group of you know African mothers on what's up I have figured it out I have figured out what went wrong with this whole thing yeah so in the beginning I said let's not be angry on her behalf because that statement that was released by the Spanish Football Association said that she was defending him and that they had a close relationship of all that.

And then it came out that she was actually pressured or something that wasn't genuinely a statement from her, which made me think, okay, many people need firing because you can't put out a statement in someone's name without their explicit consent. So I didn't understand what was going on there. And then he gives this odd speech where it's like, I'm not resigning. Look, at the end of the day, if he had genuinely said, if she felt uncomfortable, I'm sorry, and it was just in the heat at the moment, we would have all have forgotten about it. And it would have gone away because at the end of the day, I think it's twofold.

Of course, you can't do things with these, you can't touch someone or kiss someone without their consent. But we said, oh, given the culture and the heat of the moment, and she, apparently, based on that statement, didn't have a problem with it, it's fine. It's just something that Spanish people do. Spain is the kissing capital of the world. Now, we realize she didn't want it to happen.

His mother's going on hunger strike. He's refusing to resign. I mean, it's gross. I think what's happened here is that an individual has become a lightning rod for a wider, basically what's become a big culture war issue, right? So yes, if he had just, you know, stood back and said, I apologize.

This was a heat of the moment thing. I unreservedly apologize. And, you know, that could have been dealt with between the two of them. It could have been dealt with by the team, etc. But because he didn't say that, it then went into the media and suddenly everyone had to pick aside,

as they always do in the cultural war battles. And Spain has this massive issue with the far right, often, you know, who are linked to what was a very extremely right-wing authoritarian regime in Spain that was only removed in, like, the 70s. And the far right are doing very well on the back of, you know, the classic lines about, like, feminism gone mad and political correctness gone mad. And there's all this stuff that's wrong with society because of women, because they're not taking up their traditional roles. So now this is the perfect issue to actually divide people and say, oh, look at this poor man who's being, you know, pulled over the coals for something very natural.

Look at his poor mother versus everyone else who's like, this is obviously insane and something needs to be done about it. This didn't need to become a cultural issue because on the one, because because we're human beings. We can understand. Like, look at football. When people are smacking each other on the bum, we could understand this is something that happened in the heat of the moment, but we also have to draw a hard boundary saying,

if this person didn't like it, just say, I'm sorry, have respect, and we can move on. But that's not what's happened. And that's why this whole madness has started. That's what gets lost when we get into this cultural stuff, isn't it? Because it becomes impossible to build bridges across sides saying,

or be human. This individual person made a mistake, but it is connected to these wider patterns of, you know, misogy or like sexism that we see. Let's let them make a mistake and then change things and try and move forward. Let's bring in our resident Spaniard on this.

Samra, you were listening in on that. And I believe some people are actually beginning to march in Madrid this evening. I've seen videos of that sort of, I don't know how many, but a few sort of in support. Could this really be a Me Too movement for Spain? Is it fair what we're saying about it being a cultural war issue for you guys now?

It is very much a point of contention, but I wouldn't say that it's dividing society. the opposite. I've never seen anything like it in Spain. It's extraordinary. It's actually united society. So many people, overwhelming numbers of people, have been supporting Janirmoso, have been showing her massive amounts of support, whether it's on the streets, there have been protests going on for days now, whether it's on social media, whether it's government officials coming out to speak about it, whether it's the 81 members of the Spanish national team both past and present, the 23 World Cup winners and previous national team players who signed a document saying,

we're not going to represent Spain and were called up until leadership is removed. Then you have also male footballers, not many, but some have come out to show their support as well. Clubs, football organizations within the industry, everyone has come out and spoken on behalf of Jenny Ramoso in support. No one really has come out to show any kind of public support to Rubiales of any kind. And I think part of it has to do with going back to this cultural war point that you bring up. For many, this was the straw that broke the camel's back. This kiss was just the tip of the iceberg. And going back to some of the other things you touched on,

it really was just a prime example of the systemic abuse that has been going on within the Federation and within the women's national team for the better part of a decade now. And these women have been speaking about this for an incredibly long time, about how they used to feel scared. They didn't feel safe that they could go to the work environment. They were ridiculed. They were humiliated. They were silenced.

They were controlled. They were manipulated. And it is systemic within the organization. Can I very quickly ask the question? I just very quickly want to ask a question before we have to leave. I just want to know what the far right parties like Vox, for example, or what that whole movement has to say about this, if there is some divide there as well? Or is literally even, you know, the extreme right are saying, actually, this is fine?

To be honest with you, I actually haven't really. seen anything from the extreme right about this. And also in general, the extreme right has lost a bit of momentum here in Spain. They lost, I think, about 14 seats in the recent election. So people are not necessarily supporting them as much as they used to. And so it would be interesting to hear what they have to say. Obviously, I don't want to say that they haven't entirely, because maybe someone has. I just haven't seen it. But by and large, again, it's been just an incredible amount of people who have united on this fronts. And people who actually men, including, as an example,

there were men in the media who initially supported Luis Rubealis and then realized once people started talking about this, they decided to listen, to learn, and they said, actually, you know what, we're really sorry. We made a mistake. But you see, here's the thing. I disagree on one point, because I think it's important to not conflate two different issues, right?

I understand the issue of sexual harassment that women face. various professions and all of that. But the reality is, we have to contextualize it because this man did this in front of millions of people. He couldn't have done it in a more public way. And he kissed multiple players. So I think for people that assume that actually, and given men's sports, we see them smacking each other on the bombs

and they hug and they kiss and all of that, I think it's not a sign that someone is a misogynist, for instance, or someone like me to assume, actually, maybe there's a cultural element here and this is in the heat of the moment and all of that. I don't think we should conflate that with the very real issues. The way it's totally agree with it completely agree there.

But I think for people that actually defended him in the beginning and said, actually, he kissed multiple players. This is in front of everyone. You don't commit sexual assault in front of millions of people on camera. It's not something really that happens. I think to conflate that or to say people that sort had that view in the beginning with people that just don't get it or that are misogynist, I think that's unfair. How it's played out, clearly it's on. They're clearly bigger underlying issues.

But that's what that was the point I made on, Sarah. Go on. That I do think the two different issues here. The reason why people feel as though this is enacting misogy on his part is that this is not a one-off incident. For example, there is a very real case of a woman who filed a police report for physical assault. Once upon a time, there was another woman, Tamara Ramos, who openly spoke about her experiences of working with him. Was he convicted?

No, in the end, he wasn't. But I'm just saying that it was brought forward. He did go to the police. Look, I'm not disputing. I don't know what it happened or not. I'm not saying from what we've seen. I'm not disagreeing it doesn't matter. But what I am saying, sometimes even if convicted it or not,

these things do happen. We know that it's not provenable. We know that it's so difficult to prove. But all I'm saying is that there have been plenty of allegations throughout the years and women coming forward filing police reports, filing reports to the higher courts to have this investigated, to have this looked at.

They have also brought forward evidence for whatever reason, It wasn't necessarily investigated. Maybe one day it will be. But there have been plenty of cases where women have come forward and said, listen, I have been on the receiving end of misogynistic and sexist abuse by this man. Tamara Ramos is a perfect example. She spoke to the media the day. She said he humiliated me on a regular basis.

He used to ask me what color my underwear is in front of big names within the football men's community. She used to say to her, did you just come here to get down on your knees? So, I mean, there are examples of history here. Yeah. It's not like it just happened in the spur in the moment. It was a one-off. There is very much a past. That context is really important, Samra.

Of course, we've got to say, you know, that some of those are allegations, those people on here, obviously, to defend themselves, you know, etc. But it's really important to hear the context. We appreciate you giving you the history of that as well. Grace Nester, thank you for your inputs on this as well. I never thought we'd talk so much about women's football on this show, but here we are.

Samra, Grace Nessner. Thanks so much. uncensored next tonight. The million dollar mug shot. Trump's jailbird snap was expected to humiliate the former president and prove that justice applies to all. But was it a gift-wrapped boost for his campaign? And there's that reminder that you can.

Vote for peers, Morgan, uncensored in the best TV interview category and the National Television Awards. Go online, have your say at national TVawards.com or by using your phone to scan this QR code on your screen just now. Do vote for peers. He would love it. Now, welcome back to uncensored. Me, Razan Logue, we're sitting in for the next few days.

Then he's back from his holes. And I know one story he's been following very closely. Trump, yet more trials, more criminal proceedings, yes, more everything else. And of course, we had that mugshot seen around the world days. Since former President Donald Trump was booked and charged inside Atlanta jailhouse, this picture of him has become a money spinner. Would you believe it for his presidential campaign? More than $7 million.

has been raised by his team. That's what they're saying anyway. They're selling t-shirts, beer glasses, bumper stickers, donned with the scowled face of the Don, the Republican frontrunner. So who is the real mug here? The man, pat by the police,

or the scores of people who've paid for their own piece of it? Well, to discuss that, I'm joined by billionaire investor Kevin O'Leary. And by the founder and CEO of the investment company, Point Bridge, capital, Hal Lambert, also a major Republican donor

who switched his support from Trump to Ron. So gentlemen, thanks for making time for us this evening. Kevin, I'll start with you. I mean, there really was no other way Trump was going to spin this other than a money-raising opportunity, right? Well, these are unprecedented times. We've never had a situation in a presidential election where over 90 indictments have been basically registered. And the trouble is probably if you're an anti-Trumper, I mean, you have to look at it from both sides of the aisle.

the fair way to review this situation. It's so noisy now that no one remembers one indictment from another. So if another 100 indictments comes, it's just background noise. Regarding how it's moving the needle, that's the problem for both sides. It isn't. It doesn't seem to matter. The first election with Republican parties come and gone. Everybody's still at 1% except DeSantis.

He hasn't moved the needle either, and Trump remains the far ahead, forerunner. And these indictments have not had any traction. So to actually monetize it looks like a brilliant marketing move, that shot, that mugshot, if you hate Trump, you want to wear it proudly. If you love Trump, you want to wear it proudly. And that's what they're doing. And it appeals, it seems, on the merchandising front to both sides. And that's remarkable. It really is. And so they're doing a lot of fundraising at the $5 to $20 level online. It's been highly motivational for the Trump base, and it really boils down at the end of the day

to what happens in just a few states, as it always does in a presidential election. It'll be Pennsylvania, probably, that decides by less than 100,000 votes. What do those independent voters think? That's unknown. As you said, both sides of the aisle really important to bear in mind on this,

although in the UK we have a product called Marmite, which people say you love to hate. And I think when you're looking at the anti-Trumpers, as you called them there, they may even be a money-spinning opportunity here. I mean, look, there are some memes our producers have prepared about this. Let's take a look. You've got him as the Joker here in a National Portrait Gallery

or something like that. I mean, you know, this type of stuff seems to fare well for him, and it's stuff that he's used to, Hal. Talking about the money side of it, Trump is in need of quite a lot of money. I'm not talking about his personal finances. We've also obviously seen bits of tax receipts and things over the years. But in terms of his legal fees, astonishing at this point.

Yeah, I mean, it was reported he spent over $40 million just in the first half of this year. Some legal experts I've spoken to estimate it's going to cost him over $10 million a month going forward. That's a lot of money. And so he's trying to raise the small dollar money to pay the money. legal costs. So you've got people making $40, $50,000 a year effectively subsidizing a multi-billionaire's legal fees. You know, it's their choice to do, but you know, it's not being spent to get him reelected. I mean, he's going to be spending most of his money on legal fees and most of his time. So I think that's

going to be a real detriment to him. He gets all the free media. That's helpful and that's what's kept his poll numbers up. But as far as being able to campaign and being able to actually get out and get in these states, He's going to, I mean, imagine one indictment. He's got four. It's going to be a lot of stress, a lot of pressure, a lot of time with, you know, obviously requests from legal on discovery and all those kinds of things. It's expensive.

It's time consuming. And I think it's a real disservice, quite frankly, to the Republican Party and to donors for much of that money to have to be used that way versus being, reelecting people into Congress or a president. And I'll put to you, you mentioned the four indictments there. Kevin mentioned the sort of scattergun approach at the start when he was talking to us. Do you think if it is this sort of lawfare, as people are saying, this strategy is going to succeed or fail for the side that are trying to stop him getting into the White House help?

I mean, well, so far the polling number has gone up for him with these indictments. So that's been helpful. Will it last? I mean, we've got another five months until the first, the first, caucus there in Iowa. And you know, the Iowa and caucus is very different. You've got to be there. You've got to be working the ground. The same thing with New Hampshire, the same thing with South Carolina. So it's not a national election. So we're not to Pennsylvania yet. And by the way, if we look at polling, you know, the independents are not for Trump on this. So I don't,

even if we looked at Pennsylvania right now, I don't see Trump winning that state. That's the problem I have with this whole thing is independent, you know, over 53% of the country thinks that Trump is guilty. So when you go into that with that number, that assumes those people are not going to vote for him. That seems like a losing hand going into the election. Yeah. And, you know, Kevin, you were mentioning the polling. There's Emerson polling out latest. This is after these Republican debates, which, of course, Trump didn't take part in spoke to Tucker Carlson as Stead, but he was down six percentage points, Desantis up two percentage points, but Trump's still way out ahead. And Kevin, what about this point that Hal brings up? You know, people are entitled to buy a beer mug or a bumper

the sticker with Trump's face on it, but they're funding his legal fees and they may not be millionaires themselves. Is there an ethics point in that? I think there's a lot of ethical issues, but that doesn't determine who becomes president. Great politicians, great leaders, great generals, great preachers, great managers, are storytellers. And at the end of the day, you go back to Napoleon, he used to sit around the campfire with his men and tell stories. And those stories emulated all around the empire over a few months. Today, that happens in a few seconds on social media. Nothing is more painful to watch than a boring politician. Trump is not boring. Now, you may find it just outrageous that a potential

president has been indicted multiple times, but there are millions of people who simply don't care. And at the end of the day, it's one vote at a time. Now, if they did care, these polls at this This point should have moved on the first set of indictments. We're past 91 charges. Nobody seems to care. Now, you know, it may frustrate people that don't like Trump, and it must frustrate people to do. But at the end of the day, as I started talking about this, it's totally unprecedented.

What happens next? Nobody knows. I will remind everybody that you cannot become the president and pardon yourself for a state charge. You can do that federally. So this idea that he's going to win the presidency and then pardon himself, that's not going to work. Some of these charges like George are state-based. However, also unprecedented would be throwing a president or a former president or an acting president into prison. That's not good for the American brand.

Many people speculate even if he doesn't win the presidency, they won't put him in prison. Because what does that say about America? So all of these narratives are happening at the same time, all of them unprecedented, and at the center of it, a masterful, genius storyteller that sucks the oxygen out of all of his competitors. And people keep saying, don't worry, that'll change.

Not so far. Well, if he doesn't get put in prison, what does it say about the American justice system, I guess would be the counter-argument to that. But here your point on the storytelling. How, just finally, before we wrap up, one of these criminal trials now set for next year, early 2024, the day before Super Tuesday. What kind of effect is that going to have?

Yeah, I think it's going to have a negative effect. And I mean, we're going to possibly see witnesses turn against former President Trump. They've indicted a lot of people, so we'll see what happens there. But, you know, you talk about being a great storyteller. You know, what happened to Napoleon in the end? You know, he brought up Napoleon. He didn't turn out too well at the end. But I will say that maybe the country's ready for more than a storyteller.

I mean, look at DeSantis. He's there in Florida. He's working around the hurricane that's coming in. He's looking more presidential. He's not having to fight indictments. I think there's possible candidates out there like Governor DeSantis that can show leadership between now and the first caucuses and people may change their votes.

Because the majority of the country does care. Maybe the majority of the Republican primary voters don't care right now, but the majority of the country does. And we're trying to win a general election, not 50% of the Republican vote. So you're back in DeSantis now. Kevin Hal, Hal, thank you so much. Great talking to you both.

Uncensored next tonight with Wagner Bosch, Yevgeny Prygogsian. Out of the picture, what now for Putin and Russia's credibility, the future of its illegal invasion of Ukraine. I'll be joined by former US ambassador to NATO, Kurt Volker. He's in the studio next. Welcome back to Uncensored. Now the former US ambassador to NATO, Kurt Volker,

described Yvgenyipugosians March on Moscow in June as the beginning of the end of Russia's war on Ukraine. Well, fast forward two months, the Wagner boss now confirmed by Russian authorities to have died in that plane crash last Wednesday. The slow but steady war in Ukraine, of course, rumbling on. The Kremlin has denied killing progogsin, saying Western intelligence assessments of Putin's and potential involvement are an absolute, quote, lie. So what now for Russia? Putin's credibility in the future of its illegal involvement in Ukraine. Please say we're joined by the man himself, Kurt Volker, former United States ambassador to NATO,

and special representative to Ukraine. Kurt, thank you for making time for us and a busy time for you, I'm sure. And what do you make of those comments now from two months ago when you said we were going to begin to see the end? We saw that failed mutiny on Moscow by the Wagner troops,

and now we see a dead progarsion. The reason I said that, and I stand by it, is that what we're seeing is the bubble popping in Russia. The narrative that Putin has been trying to tell people about the war, progosion took on directly. It said it was a mistake to go in,

the war is going badly, the conditions for the soldiers are terrible, and he was marching on Moscow, and he was welcomed in Rostov, in Boronage, and then negotiated an exit for time being. But it was clear that Russia was beginning to turn on itself. And that, I think, is what we saw now just the other day with his assassination as well, that this is the Russian state tearing itself apart, or the actors within it, Putin, Progosin. Imagine shooting down an air-crowing just outside your capital city in order to kill one of your rivals there. This is not going well in Russia, and it's ultimately Russia's change that's going to cause an end to the war in Ukraine. And it depends what sources you read, how overly optimistic you are, that sentiment is changing in Russia.

Obviously, they only get given what they're given by the state in terms of information. So very few people actually believe Putin was behind the killing of prognogs, which is stunning to us to think about. But it's very much the case there with the state media. If you're asked, if you're asked on the street by somebody, do you believe Putin killed the right? What are you going to say? What are you going to say? What are you going to say? Absolutely. Now, how do you think this changes the way the situation plays out with Ukraine, but most notably calls for NATO to accept Ukraine or Ukraine to join NATO? You were, you know, a former representative to NATO for the U.S. Your position on it has been very clear. Other people say it will just agitate

further. Well, I don't think we have a choice at this point. I know we're not quite there yet. But Putin has declared that Ukraine doesn't exist as a nation of people and identity. He's trying to wipe out an entire European country. And he has explicitly said he's trying to reestablish an empire. He's compared himself to Catherine the Great and to Peter the Great, an accumulator of Russian lands. So we're not going to have NATO able to provide security for Europe with Ukraine out of it, because war will continue. So the only way to actually lock down Europe again is to have a clear,

hard line of deterrence so that Russia doesn't attack anymore. And that's going to be with Ukraine in and all of these countries in gray zones, having to ultimately be in NATO. Now, the voices that are opposing to Ukraine joining NATO and have been from the start, also the types of voices that you hear opposing funding, what we call the war in Ukraine or sending more ammunition weapons F-16s the time of that. What concerns you about the upcoming U.S. election, the way that that could change things in terms of the voices that call for ceding territory of Ukraine

or stopping sending weapons? Yeah, it's a tough one to say. You know, you have former President Trump, Vivek Ramoswani, out there saying it's terrible, terrible, we should stop supporting Ukraine. You have most of the other Republican candidates and President Biden all strongly in favor of supporting Ukraine. So there's a clear majority in favor of that.

Even in the public, there's a majority in favor of that. But it's going to become a rancorous debate. And what I worry about most, I guess to answer your question, is the White House needs to be more. They need to explain the U.S. interest, why it is in our interest, that Putin be stopped in Ukraine so that we don't have to go elsewhere, and then to do everything possible to help Ukraine win quickly. We seem to be doling this out one step at a time, and the Ukrainians are paying the price, and it looks as though it is going slowly and badly sometimes, when, in fact, it could be going better. It's a communications exercise, perhaps. Partially. Partially.

One part of the current U.S.-Russia relations that is interesting is there's detention still of Evan Gerskovich. Wall Street Journal, journalist. He's been detained for last few months now, a very limited hope of what's going to happen for him at the moment. And the only thing you could guess at would be a prisoner exchange of Russia. But where this gets complicated, of course, is some say that if the US hadn't exchanged Brittany Griner,

who was detained a few months ago, for a war criminal at the time, you wouldn't now have this situation where Evan was detained as well because Russia sees it as a bargaining chip. Well, but we still have Brittany Griner in jail. Right. I mean, Putin is going to take hostages and then see what he can get for it. And he likes to take hostages that create some kind of political pressure

inside the United States. I think in the case of Brittany Griner, it was one that was really irritating to the Democratic base, which is therefore very annoying to President Biden, who has to take care of them. So they really did as much. much as they could to try to get her out and did, as you said, dubious exchange of a real international arms trafficker and criminal. In the case of Evan Gerskowitz, it seems that they're

trying to go for someone who's connected more to the right, because I think they're trying to increase the pressure of the right, particularly the far right, against the Biden administration, saying, see what you've done, you're helping Ukraine, and now look at this, you shouldn't be doing that. It's not playing that way, but I think that might be part of what the Russians were trying to achieve. It's sad and cynical, but that is the case of a lot of this detention strategy that Putin has laid out, as you said there. In terms of where it could go from here for Gerskovich, do you think there will be some serious negotiations happening? Do you think there is willing within the Biden administration to see him freed? Well, I'm sure there is. I'm sure in the

Biden administration that they are sending out feelers, what's the situation here, what can we do? His lawyers are going through the right motions of filing the briefs that they're supposed to file. Not that there's any operative legal system in Russia, but if you don't do it, they'll hold it against you that you don't. But I don't think Putin is quite ready to trade yet. And the reason is because I think he knows he's losing in Ukraine. His forces have not been able to take any new territory since June, and that was the Wagner Group, which has been off the playing field since then. Ukrainians are gradually taking back territory in their counter-offensive, particularly in the South. And if they're able to break these logistical support lines that get to Crimea, it's going to be really bad for Putin.

So I think he's hanging on to Evan until he can see where this is and maybe longer even still because he wants bargaining chips. One other strand that might seem a little bit obtuse to some viewers, but is Africa in all of this, because the Wagner group were incredibly active in the continent. there has even been speculation that some forces from African nations could be used within Ukraine war, which is astonishing to think of. But with the absence of Progogsian, what is Russia's influence over that continent now? Well, I think he's going to try to reconstitute influence in Africa, but under more control. Progogian became out of control, out of the Kremlin control anyway, and they had their own sources of income, they were doing their own thing in Ukraine, they

started doing their own thing in Russia, and from Putin's perspective, that's enough. So he shut them down. But now I think he still wants to have a mercenary force with some degree of separation from state organs that he can still direct and do things in Africa. So I think they're going to try and put it back. It's a temporary setback, but we'll see where it goes. Absolutely. Look, Kurt Volker, we appreciate you making time for us coming to the studio here in London.

Good luck with the rest of your travels. Thanks so much for that. Thank you. Well, on Censored next tonight, 60 years ago, Martin Luther King, had a dream. The march on Washington paved the way for key civil rights laws and changed the US forever, but how much of that dream has been realized? And is America now at risk of heading in the opposite direction? Welcome back to Uncensored with me, Rosanna Lockwood. Now, it was 60 years ago today that over a quarter of a million Americans descended onto the streets of Washington, D.C.,

to hear these words from civil rights activist, Dr. Martin Luther King. But one day, this nation's to be self-evident... Dr King was to look at today's America. Some say he might wonder whether his dream has been realized. Just this weekend, police in Jacksonville, Florida, said they believe the killing of three black people by a 21-year-old white gunman was racially motivated. The incident has been condemned by all sides,

including by the family of Dr. King's. I'm pleased, honored rather, to say I'm joined by Dr. Martin Luther King's niece, Alveda King, and by Shareda Tate, the cousin of George Floyd, and president of the George Floyd Foundation, Foundation. Thank you ladies. And here in the studio by Talk TV contributor Esther Krakku, joining us once again and author and playwright Bonnie Greer. Well, what a strong panel to discuss this. And Bonnie, I will actually start with you because you were just sharing your

original memories from Dr. Martin Luther King's speech. Well, it's certainly an hour to be on with all of you, especially one of Dr. King's relatives. And I have to say, I was a young teenager when this thing, when they marched on Washington. And they cleared the channels and never happened before this was a special so we came home from school eating our milk and cookies and then they said dr king was gonna be on it and we've grown up watching dr king as little kids we were going like okay he was cool but okay and he was 16th down on the the speaker's roster this guy got up there we listened to the speeches my uncle drove his truck there we were all sitting there what they

don't tell you is that this speech was impromptu he rifted this speech Nobody knew this was coming out of him. He made this up on the spot. And if you watch his body, you can see that was coming through him. If you saw it live, you could feel that this was like coming through him. I mean, people were screaming. And now we sort of think of the speech as a kind of iconic set piece. It wasn't.

This was off the cuff. And that made it even more exciting. All from the- All from the heart. All-from-the-heart. Alveda, listening in on that, a relative, of Dr Martin Luther King, you must be used to hearing those types of accounts now of what it meant to people.

But do you think the words that he spoke that day have been realized? Unfortunately, our collection has failed in that sense then. I will go to Sherida and ask you the same question. Obviously not a relative of Dr. King yourself, but the words have run true for a lot of Americans, a lot of black people around the world, not just Americans. Do you think that the words have been realized, in today society?

I still think that we have a lot more work to do before we could say his dream was truly realized. I mean, there have been some progress, but in some cases, as you can see, what's happening all over the country as we continue to lose lives senselessly, it just seems like it takes us a step backwards. Institutionally, do you feel like the support is there

in order to achieve the kind of change that is, needed and I'm talking here from government but also social movements as well. Well, I think that there are times when we feel like that collectively the social movement is something that I definitely believe is moving in the right direction. There are times when in general it feels like we have the support. It's sort of wax and wanes, but I think we need to, whenever we have those times when it feels like we're all in sync, it's when we have to really rally together and push the narrative forward. How do effects like the Jacksonville shooting?

How does that impact you when you hear that it was racially motivated? Well, it's like, unfortunately, it's happening so often that it's not something that has shock value anymore. It just seems that their overall seems to be. this diminished value on the lives of black and brown people. And so when you hear these incidents happening over and over again, there's no shock. But what it does do for me, and I think many other people in the movement, it just pushes us more to say there's still more work for us to do.

Let's cross back over to Alveda. I think we've managed to reestablish the connection. Are you back with us, Alveda? Yes, I am. Can you hear me? I hope you can. We can. Thank you so much for making time.

Thank you so much for making time. It was a busy few days for you, the 60th anniversary of Dr. King's remarks. And I'll just ask you once again, whether you feel like he would be satisfied by some of the progress that's been made or not at all at this point? I was a teenager in the 1960s. I got married in 69. And one thing that my uncle would say, we must learn to live together as brothers, all at his sisters or pairs together as fools. And in his own speech, he said, add righteousness and justice together. He talked about a check of insufficient funds. So those are some of the things.

And some of that is definitely still here today. He also said, we must learn to live together as brothers and sisters and we are one blood and one human race. That we're not separate races. I think he would want us to remember that. The other point, and I hope it doesn't freeze, you have to do this in every generation, every decade, and on every platform. Because if you forget you, if you erase your,

history, you're going to repeat it again. So that's why all this stuff about burning the history books and locking all the black kids in a classroom away from everybody else and telling them this is happening in Florida as well. There's a school and the black principal

agreed to have the black kids put in their own separate classroom. No, you don't separate you come together, act like human beings and learn human dignity and to care about each other. That's something Martin Luther King Jr. talked about in that, cashing that check for insufficient funds dealing with racism and systemic racism.

Laws that are written into our laws totally opposite. He said he had a dream. It's rooted in the American drink. Yeah. That's in that speech. So you have to remember these things, but you have to deal with it. Yes, I agree with the other speakers. There's more to be done, and it must be done in every generation.

Bonnie, in the studio. I said really quickly, I was a teenager in the 60s, too. And I can say, on one hand, absolutely, progress has been slow. But in the 1960s, I would not have dreamt of a black man being too... My father wouldn't have imagined that. He could not have imagined that, okay? He could not have imagined a black woman as vice president of the United States.

That would not have been possible for my father. My father was from Mississippi. That's been impossible. And my friend is the Director General of the States. Smithsonian and that was something my father couldn't have imagined so I agree with everybody every generation we got to start over we got to let people know what progress has been made but also know that there is a long long way to go long way to go well Esther sitting in the studio here representing the British side

of things listening in from you know we've got three strong black American voices here talking about this saying we've got a long way to go still what does it mean to you to hear that I'm no I think that They're absolutely right. And obviously, like I say, Britain is not America, and there are different issues. But there are some similarities. I mean, obviously, when we talk about police brutality in the US, we can't map that context onto Britain because it's completely different.

The social dynamics and the interracial dynamics are completely different. But they are right in the sense that there's always work to be done. And there's, you know, every generation has to fight for its place and fight for the renewal of its values. And I think that's important. In the case of Britain, obviously, we have different types of issues, you know, discrimination and injustices are usually linked with social class as opposed to just race or just ethnicity.

And so it's a different struggle, but there are underlying similarities in the sense that every generation must continue to reiterate the values that keep us progressing and keep us together. And I think it's, you know, it's obviously an honor to be here with Bonnie and here. It's an honor to be with you. And it's an honor to hear that the young voices also know

that every generation has to take Dr. King's words, King's words and make them their own. Not only take the words, but make the words their own and never forget the ancestors because of all the struggle that the ancestors went. Let's cross to Alveda for the final words then on that, Alveda, if you were to take any of the words that Dr. King spoke, that people should make their own, which would they be? I am a guardian of the King family legacy, my daddy, Reverend A.D. King, Daddy King, Mama, and all of them. So we are one blood, one race with powerful, beautiful ethnicity.

Let's learn to celebrate it and stop killing each other. There's a good, strong words. Thank you very much, Alveda King. Sherida, as well, joining us. Thank you also for your insights on this. And also here in the studio, we've had Esther and Bonnie chime me in on this. It's been great speaking to you all. I've learned a lot.

Bonnie, particularly about your experiences as a teenager, listening to that and how it's inspired you. You know, it wants you to see something like that. And it is important to know that he didn't, he did that on the spot. Yeah. And that's what was so powerful about it. Doing it on the spot. That's what it's all about from the heart.

Thank you to all of our panelists. That's it from me tonight, wherever you are up to, make sure it's uncensored. Good night.