Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Peter Shilton

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

Standing in for Piers, Jeremy Kyle discusses Salman Rushdie's fight to defend freedom of speech. Jeremy looks at Labour's energy crisis plan. Jeremy has an uncensored chat with Peter Shilton about gambling, the cost of living crisis, and much more. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8pm on TalkTV on Sky 526, Virgin Media 627, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight on Pierce Morgan, I'm censored with me, Jeremy Kyle. Stabbed for his words as Salman Rushdie fights for his life, will discuss one of the fights of his life, the defence of free speech. Our proposal, which is to prevent those energy prices going, increases going forward. Starma Chameleon emerges from his summer in camouflage, but his Labour's energy crisis plan off colour. Valdao Adelaide is protesting to the referee.

Plus Peter Schilter, one of the greatest goalies of all time on keeping the dark secret of his gambling addiction. Good evening, my friends, and a big, big welcome to Peers Morgan Unsensored. I'm Jeremy Carl. Now stand by. Inform the authorities. Call off the search parties.

Take down your posters and relax, my friends. Because Sekeir Stama has been located, safe and well. There he is. Finally back from the beach with a massive plan to tackle your cost of living crisis. He says he wants to freeze your fuel bills. No word yet on whether he'll stop blowing hot air

to facilitate that, but at least he's back on dry land, which is more than can be said of our Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, who is again on holiday. Not another one? Yes, dear, another one. The PM's on his second holiday in a fortnight. Last week in Slovenia, this time in Greece, but do not fret, because officials insist

he's working from home. We wrote this. Yeah, right. Next week, he's working from Rome. But speaking of dry land, the arid, arid land of Great Britain. Some great news, my friends. It's raining! Give me that umbrella. Watch this.

We prayed for a downpour. And the heavens... Oh my, it's windy as well. The heavens have opened. Weeks of baking sunshine have left the UK as dry as Prince Andrew's armpits. But now, three days of thunderstorms are set to drench the nation. It's raining cats and dogs out there. I stepped on a poodle in the way in.

Goodness me. From sizzle to drizzle, from pain to rain, we're building back water. Drip, drip, hooray, or not. Big news. Sadly, the Met Office says otherwise. Demonstrating... Don't be too late.

Demonstrating Britain's limitless capacity for innovation in complaining about the weather. Experts tonight say it's the wrong kind of rain. Intensive downpours, apparently, when actually solved the drought crisis, this yellow arid land is so parched. It can't absorb the water, meaning we're going to be.

be flooded instead. So we're still doomed and we're going to be just as miserable, but it does of course beg the big question, what on earth is the right kind of rain? Because I must like you think that all rain is supposed to be wet. Here's a really interesting man from the mess office to rain on our parades. Change is on the way next week with some heavy rain in places, but at first it will come in the form of thundery downpours. Intense thunderstorms are the wrong way to end a drought. The rain will be hit and this. Some places will stay dry. heaviest rain does occur, there's the risk of the rain will run straight off the

parched ground and cause flash flooding. What happy, happy news. Right, first tonight, does free speech ever go too far? Legendary British author Salman Rushdie was stabbed on stage in New York State last week. He's now off a ventilator, but remains in a critical condition. The 75-year-old has faced years of death threats over his novel, the satanic verses, which some Muslims see as blasphemous. Comedian Dave Chappelle was attacked on stage in May

and Netflix has faced repeated calls to drop him over his jokes on gender and trans issues. Rarely, though, are attacks on free speech so literal and so dangerous, but performers faced the ever-present threat of council culture. On the same day that Rushdie was attacked, comedian Jerry Sadowitz had his Edinburgh show axed over complaints of racism and misogyny.

And of course, Britain's own Jimmy Carr faced a massive backlash for a joke about gypsies and the Holocaust. A joke, he said, could have ended his career. So for us tonight, there's one big question. Is there such a thing as too much free speech, or should we always defend the right to offend? Now, joining me from New York, I'm joined by conservative author,

Douglas, to quote Pierce Morgan, Douglas, has the world gone nuts, my friend? Question, if I may. You said at the beginning, is there any limit to free speech? And I'm rather disturbed we're still discussing this. It's three decades more since the Satanic Versus affair. It was in 1989 that the Ayatollah Khomeini did the unpardonable, unforgivable thing of calling for the murder of a British novelist, for the crime of writing a novel.

And we had these debates back then. Where are the limits to free speech? Has Mr. Rushdie committed a crime as well as the Ayatollah, and a lot more guff like that? I'm rather disturbed that in all of the decades since, with all the people who've been killed for asserting their right to free speech, and asserting their right to say what they think

and for the rest of us to hear it, but we're still at this elementary playground level of discussion. I'm sorry to say that, but this is a long, long-answered question. Our societies have perfectly good incitement laws in place. The rest of it, I'm sorry, no, we're not adapting our own speech, codes. We're not going to make ourselves more sensitive to people who famously burn books that they

can't even read. I mean, the Ayatollah Khomeini had never even read the satanic verses when he asked Muslims around the world to kill Salman Rushdie. It's an unpardonable thing that has happened. It is extraordinary to me that we're still having this discussion. We had the same discussion seven years ago when the cartoonists of Shaleepto were being murdered. We had the same discussion on all of these decades, and it's Muslims and non-Muslims who've been attacked, and we in the West still have this pathetic discussion about, oh, what are the limits of free speech? Really, we've got to get better than that. Douglas, I agree with you, but it's not just Islam, is it? We'll talk to Abdel Al-Andalusi in a

minute, but it's also comedy. We talked about Dave Chappelle. We talked about Jimmy Carr. There doesn't seem to be a week that goes by without some comedian making a joke that a certain group, a certain number of people find distasteful. I obviously come... Well, that may be true. I obviously come from a different planet, because here's what I would say. We have an on-off button.

If you want to go and see a comedian, you buy a ticket. If you want to watch a television program, you pick that channel. If you want to read Salman Rushdie's book, you surely have a right. Are we not getting to the point where free speech is under attack in our world?

world in our nation. Well, it's been under attack for a long time. I don't particularly care for a lot of the sort of belly aching and complaining on rather frivolous online stuff that I hear from a lot of authors and others. I think that people have to toughen up a bit on some of that. But the Roshdie affair has always been in a different class and there's a reason for that. And there's a reason why so many people today are willing to make death threats against authors

and others, all sorts of things, including comedians. And it's because they saw that it was. It works. It works. When the Ayatollah called for the murder of Salman Rushdie, people on the left and right of British politics and a British culture made excuses for the fatwa. I'm sure we'll hear some excuses today. They learned. Our society's learned that if somebody says, I'm offended and then says, and as a result, I'm going to kill, you better be damn sure that you're willing to die for that. And unfortunately, the success of the Ayatollah's fatwa, among other things, is that it showed a load of other disgruntled people. what they could do if they only had the disgustingness to think that they could exercise violence as an opposition to the pen. And I'm afraid that what happened, as I say, is that Muslim extremists across the UK

and across the world showed they could intimidate people and others undoubtedly have learned from this. But let's remember, Britain in 1989, we allowed Muslims in Bradford to burn the Quran, to burn sort of the satanic verses on the streets of Britain. We allowed prominent figures like Kat Stevens to excuse the murder of Salman Rushdie on the television. We allowed Iranian officials who had called for Rushdie's murder

to live in London. How stupid are we? Interesting, Douglas. Thank you for now in New York. Let's pick up now with journalist Martha Gill, Emma Wedd from the Free Speech Union, co-founder of the Muslim Debate Initiative, Abdullah al-Andalusi. Let's start with you, if we can, Abdullah. Quite a strong rhetoric from Douglas Murray.

I'm always aware that Muslim extremists do not in any way speak for the majority of Muslims. But to be fair, the Iranian government over the weekend said Rushdie was to blame for being attacked. That is completely and utterly despicable, isn't it? Well, firstly, I find it rather strange that Douglas Murray, who's had a history of advocating for restrictions on Muslim speakers at universities. But you can answer my question. Do you think it's despicable that the Iranian government have said that he took it on himself? He was stabbed in broad daylight.

I know. But if I may, he deans to say he's a champion for free speech, so to speak, but yet his organization argued for restrictions for platforms for Muslim speakers going to universities. He wanted to ban the burqa in public buildings and a kind of social ban on it in public. So for him and argued that conditions for Muslims in Europe

must be made harder. across the board. Let's bring Douglas back in. Douglas, Douglas, I find it a little bit, I would find a little bit strange that he should deign to call himself,

brazenly call himself, or at least imply you some kind of champion for free speech, or free expression. Look, I've probably got to answer that. You'll have noticed, and all of your viewers will have noticed, that this Islamist lunatic in your studio can't answer the basic question. Let's try it again and make it simple for you.

Why don't you say whether or not you are completely condemning of any violence against Salman Rushti or anyone else who is deemed to have said something heretical. Why don't we start with the basics for you? Okay. First, I want to answer his question, because he asked me first, which is about the Iranian regime, well, having not being an Iranian citizen

nor participate in any elections to elect the Iranian regime, the Iranian regime doesn't really represent 1.8 billion Muslims. Okay, so if you're here representing 1.8 billion Muslims, it's very simple. Douglas has just said it. Do you... Do you... Or as your own self, having heard what he said, do you accept people saying, be it the Iranian government or Muslim extremists,

and I made the caveat and I repeat it, Muslim extremists, one of the biggest problems I have is that people look at the whole thing and they shouldn't? Do you agree with anybody who comes up with the sentence he was to blame for being knifed in broad daylight 15 times in his neck? Do you? The only person to blame for the knifing of Salman Rushdie is the assailant himself. Not the Iranian regime who put the fact on him in the first place. Well, unless you can demonstrate that they were specifically colluding

or they sent an agent. They said he was to blame. He was in communication with the Iranian Revolutionary. And that's their opinion, right? But I'm only here to talk about, if you're asking me who was to blame, I say the assailant, much like Douglas Murray said that the Christchurch killer, the one who massacred the Muslims in the mosque. But only the killer was to blame,

not those who radicalized him into view Muslims as a threat to the West. What you'll find is that if somebody, put millions of dollars on someone's head, yours, for instance, or mine, and somebody then attacked us, you would think that the person who had put millions of dollars on our head would bear some responsibility.

Because you're such a dishonest weasel, you're not even willing to do that. You're not even willing to do the basic thing of condemning the attack. Stixen stones, Douglass Myr, Stixon Stones. You need to demonstrate that the person was motivated by the reward. I'll tell you what I'd like to motivate. I'll tell you what I'd like to demonstrate.

This is my program, Martha Gill, journalist, what's your opinion on this situation? Well, it's completely horrific. I completely agree with the other two, so with Douglas Murray, in that if putting a bounty on someone's head in the first place is an act of violence,

whether or not that's followed up by people taking on the challenge, and clearly somebody has, and they are entirely to blame for that. Let's move on to... I want to ask you generally, you've been quite open about free speech. When does free speech

cross a line, Martha? So every functioning society has to have some limits on free speech. If you agree with any law on hate speech, then you agree on limits to free speech in society. You know, if you say actually it's fine to say anything, you quickly run up against a paradox, which is that you say it's fine to somebody to go on TV and call for the death of somebody else for an expressing of view. So their freedom of speech is immediately restricted. the freedom of speech of others.

So you do need some limits on free speech in a free society. Now, of course, we can argue where you draw the line. It's going to say, Emma, would you say we've gone too far? In restricting free speech, I think absolutely we have. I agree with Douglas that I think that short of incitement, those things that are illegal under the law, incitement being things like, for example, putting a fatwa out on somebody,

that would count as incitement in my book because it's actively calling for violence against someone, and in this case for something that someone has written. Does incitement compel people to actually be violent, though? Hold on a second. Does it incite them? It encourages them. If you are through a group or a clan or whatever you want to say, and I'm treading carefully for obvious reasons,

if you feel that you're following a group, whatever it is and they're telling you to do something, you're sitting there saying that that bloke wasn't... Isn't that my free will, though? Isn't the whole basis of the Western system based on people's... Do you believe that man would have gone and stabbed Salman Rushdie unless he had been encouraged, incentivised, galvanised, whatever words you want from people,

the Iranian government who say, Salman Rushdie is to blame on putting a fat war on his head. That's wrong, isn't it? I'm simply saying that, unlike knee-jerk, dog whistle politics, we hear from Douglas Murray, why don't we wait to the court case to see what motivate the individual? I'm waiting for the evidence.

I'm waiting to, like, what does he say motivated him? If he said it was motivated by the ruling government, fatwa, fine, I accept. Do you not think he might have been? I guess is the question. Yeah, he might have been. Right. Yes. I'd like to finish my point. Yeah, go. So we have in this country a teacher who is still in hiding, the teacher from Batley Grammar School, because he showed a cartoon of the Prophet

Muhammad to his class. He's still in hiding with his young family. That is in this country now. I think that what we have done as a result of everything that happened with Salman Rushdie in the intervening 33 years, I think that we have internalized this sense, this attitude, of censorship so that now if somebody wanted to write a book like Salman Rushdie's book, no publisher would touch them because they would know what the implications would be for that person, because we've internalised the, we've internalised Sharia law on this, we've internalised in many ways, we've internalised the censorship of radical ideological groups.

What's a deal of Sharia law? I don't think you can compare an illiberal regime such as the one in Iran to the one here. That's not what I was doing. No, no, no, of course, but you can't really compare the types of restriction on free speech. We have some restrictions laid down in law. They have a huge number of restrictions enforced by their government and ruling groups. The way that free speech gets restricted here is more by a process of consensus and debate, like the debate we're having here, on where line should be drawn.

It's often done with individuals. You can pretty much say anything you like if you find the right audience for it. I would love to sit here all night. I literally am being shouted at my own. We could continue this. To all of you, Abdullah, thank you so much indeed. Douglas Murray from New York, Martha Gill, and obviously Emma Webb. Everybody has an opinion.

Somebody said to me today, the attacker of Salman Rushelat, millions of others worldwide, almost certainly had absolutely no knowledge of the satanic verses, a book that came out 33 years ago. So one would have to wonder, is he just an evil person or is he motivated? What are your thoughts that's important? At the end of the day, everybody will have their own opinion.

Don't go anywhere. Next and uncensored, the big news. Sakea Stama is back. The opposition leader has risen from his sunlanger, put down his paperback, not the satanic verses, and finally broken his silence on the cost of living crisis. The big question, should our non-existent government, who we haven't seen, listen.

We'll get the lowdown from my experts. It's coming next. We're coming right back in three. Don't go anywhere. Welcome back, my friends. Now, we've given Sekea Stama a hard time recently for holidaying in a national crisis. But like a British train, my friends,

he's arrived late and lacking power. but he does, at least, have a plan. And in the absence, there are anything much from the British government, we thought we'd have a look at it. Let's cut it down. Labor says it will freeze the current price, energy price cap, which is 1,971 quid, and they believe that could rise to £4,000 by January,

so they're going to freeze it at that, $1971. It'll pay for that, Labor says, by backdating the windfall tax on oil and gas companies to January, which will raise $8 billion. It's quite useful. They'll also then cancel the planned 400 quid rebate before you go on energy bills. That'll say $14 million, which it also reckons will reduce inflation, saving another $7 billion on government debt. Now, here's the interesting thing, because we have been moaning at Stama and the opposition to come up with something good, because we're waiting for the Tories to choose a new leader, and the Tories are waiting for that new leader to tell them what the hell's going on.

Today, the Times reports that 75% of grassroots conservatives black are even back at Sakeer's plan. So here he is the man with the tan explaining it in his own words. Have a look. Our proposal, which is to prevent those energy prices going, increases going forward, will also dampen inflation and therefore the money that would otherwise be paid on our debt because inflation is so high would not have to be paid. Joining me now is our financial expert Gemma Godfrey and debt expert Salim Schaffey from Money Advice Service, Money Buddies. Welcome both. We have been saying for a long time, where are you? And when you look at Labour's plan, what do you think? Because a host of Tories are going, that's a good idea.

Well, the big problem with obviously the increasing energy prices is that it's a humanitarian crisis. It's going to amount to people spending on average two-month salary to cover their one-day. month's energy bill. It's completely untenable. So on the one hand, freezing it, you know, that makes sense in terms of trying to lessen the burden. But the big problem is some of the assumptions they're making that this is going to reduce inflation. And that doesn't necessarily mean that that's going to happen. And also, it's a short-term solution. It's like putting a plaster on something. But ultimately, what it doesn't solve is the fact that 30 energy supplies went bust since the beginning of 2021. And, you know, what are they going to be able to do long-term to make us more energy independent? I think, Celine, welcome to the show. I think

the message, and I absolutely agree with you, Gemma, but. the one thing that we have been calling out for as a nation is for somebody to stand up from the British government and say we're going to do something. And we've talked about, you know, short-term measures, you know, the green levy, VAT on fuel. This might be a sticking plaster, but actually politically, the people of this country

are hearing Stama and the opposition saying something that they think they can at least think about. And the government's doing nothing, it seems, right? Absolutely. This is something that relates to people's mindsets at the moment. We're in a national crisis. Lives are going to be lost at this way. winter. If we were at war, what would we be saying? Raise the money. So this is a really strong

measure to actually help people feel safe about themselves. If you feel safe about your energy costs going into the winter, you're more likely to start thinking about maybe perhaps spending some money through the next few months, and that will actually help keep the economy going. We're getting people into the mentality of saving and hoarding their money. When you get into that, then where's investment? Where do people then start to look forward? We had this kind of thing in 2008, when the corporates themselves, barely doubled. Their cash reserves, simply because they are worried about the future, this is now happening to the nation.

Unless we can kind of get out of this mentality of hoarding money now and help people feel safe about spending the money, we're going to be in a situation where the economy suffers even more. I completely agree. And I've talked politically, Gemma, that I feel like Starrma has stolen a march, which I didn't think I'd ever say. But let's talk about debt. Last week we talked about the housing market.

We talked about rentals and we talked about how difficult it is for people. And one of the annoying things for me about politicians, I'm not sure they quite get it. The words are fine, but people are suffering. And I think Saleem's absolutely right. I heard that guy say to me last week, oh, we should all be aiming towards getting a mortgage. What would you say to the people watching this right now

who are seriously in debt? Forget that they can't pay their energy bills. Forget that they will not be able to heat their homes or feed their kids. They're in debt already. It's like they're sinking. Do we have a message? Do we have constructive help for them? because that for me is what should be happening now.

Absolutely. And I think one of the biggest problems we have is the interest that's charged on debt. Because it's not just the amount that's owed. It gets bigger and bigger because the interest is a percentage of what is owed and it can just skyrocket and actually people can find it very hard to get out of.

And I think, you know, look, there are lots of different things that people can do and I absolutely think they should be going to advice and centres to try and get some impartial advice. But I think what's really important is to be able to speak up and try and ask for help. So, for example, if there's problems with energy bills, utility providers can actually provide a holiday

and allow people more time to pay, reduce their payments, because it's not in the energy company's interest either that people just stop paying either. Same thing with banks. What's quite easy to do is fall into an unarranged overdraft. And again, get whacked with fees, and that makes things worse.

But calling them up and trying to get an arranged overdraft, again, it's not a long-term solution, but it could stop them slipping. But people that are already in debt, prioritising it, focusing on the higher interest debt, not getting swayed into consolidating it, and it may reduce the interest slightly, which is good short term.

But if you're paying for longer, again, that could increase the amount as well. So I think really going out and trying to speak up and trying to get some support for each individual's personal circumstances is going to be very important because it can seem overwhelming

and affect people's mental health. I think that's the point, isn't it, Selleem, that a lot of people watching this will feel they're in such a rut that they cannot see any way out. They're working. I always talk about the jams. I talk about it every week,

just about managing. I have great sympathy for people on benefit. I don't have any sympathy for rich people who get the energy cap. What I'm talking about is those people who are, you know, the mother and the father both work, right? They've got two kids probably. I'm not painting a picture, but they're paying everything out and they've got nothing. And they're really, really suffering.

And the message, I think Gemma makes a great point about mental health. This is dragging this nation down, isn't it? It is. Well, just on the mental health thing. If you have stressed to 20 minutes or more, just around 20 minutes, you start to damage brain structures inside yourself, which are really about connecting with people, connecting with yourself, being able to express your issues and problems. So alleviating in that, putting this price cap, capping the price cap this next few months,

will actually alleviate stress on so many people. In terms of debt, we had the just about managing two years ago. It's just about surviving. We're seeing clients now who haven't eaten for a number of days. That's only going to get worse. Can I just stop there? Because people say, oh, you do this every night, Carly. Yeah, I do.

Because that is not just a sound bite. People will not be eating. I mean, we had somebody on from a one of those, food banks the other day. He said, I had a middle-class family in effect. I haven't eaten for four days. It's not just homeless people, for God's sake. There are people all over the place going, I cannot afford it. I had a friend. Relevant story, but just take it for what it is. Had a mate today who went to buy his daughter, her first second-hand car. The APR had gone from 5.9% to 22.5%. Everybody is struggling and making money, and financial organisations will take

advantage, won't they? Absolutely. And I think what we're talking here is about essential items. This isn't somebody buying a luxury item and having to cut back. This is people deciding, again, I get asked this. The big question I've been asked at the moment is, shall I stay at home and then save on my petrol, or shall I go to the office to save on my energy bills? I mean, that is what the decisions people are making. Just imagine that. What would you say about debt? I liked what you said about dead advice companies. Are they, in the past, have they been frowned upon? You say they care and they can help, right? Yes, they are. This is a caring sector. It's a non-judgmental sector. They're in the

roles. They do these roles because they care about people. And one thing about seeing a debt advice agency like ourselves, and there are many others in the UK too, is that we protect clients from the behaviours of creditors. And when we speak to creditors, they change their tone with us and helps keep. We're like an invisible force feel for clients. And this can make people feel much safer about themselves, much more relaxed, and again, be able to get on with their life. When you are in debt, spiraling out of debt, out of control and debt, and there's bills coming in, you can't see any clarity to your problem. What debt advice agencies will do is clear the minutiae out of your brain and give you a clear path.

Would you advocate them as well? Absolutely. And I think there's a really clear distinction here between debt advice, impartial advice, that's there to help. And then companies that are there to say, well, we're going to consolidate your loans. They're talking about a product. They're selling a product. You're right.

There are scams. There are certain terms you have to look for. So that you should really pay a lot of attention to. But ultimately, free, impartial, debt advice that's run by a charity. You know, that is there to be able to help. Somebody once told me, a bank manager years ago told me, that banks make money by lending people money. So your theory about going to a debt advice agency,

and I'm wallowing and I don't know what to do, you taking it over. They want their money back, but they're also going to have to be realistic. It's like the utility companies. If everybody can't pay their bills, they won't have a business. So people need to meet in the mail.

Just both of you, the message to people watching this who are in debt. A positive message, a helpful message? What would you say, Jim? I would say, I think, just a... As Brits, we tend to get very easily embarrassed when we talk about money, but there is absolutely no shame. I mean, it's not just at all levels of society, people are living off credit cards, you know, but really speaking up and trying to find a solution is going to be incredibly important before it spirals or to try and help get yourself out of it. There are people that want to help.

Brilliant. Celine? People shouldn't feel alone. You're not alone in this. There's many people in similar positions to themselves. And it's really about just picking up the phone, speak anonymously. A five-minute chat with a debt advisor with a money buddy can be the difference between sleeping and not sleeping. It can be the difference in heating and not eating. And do you know what I think about this cost of living crisis? I think it's going to change people's behaviour. We've talked about mental health.

We've talked about opening up. People going and seeing a doctor or a psychologist or talking to somebody in debt or companies. We are going to have to learn to probably be a little less British and a little less stiff upper lip and open up. Because the message is everybody's in the same boat, right? Absolutely. Gemma Godfrey, Salim.

Thank you so much indeed for coming on the show tonight. Right next on the sense of the most capped England football player ever. We could use one of those caps on the price of butter, couldn't we? Did you like that? England legend Peter Schildner, his lifelong struggle with gambling addiction is subject close to my heart. We're coming back in three. Welcome back, my friends. Now, we've given Sekeir Stama a hard time recently for holidaying in a national crisis.

But like a British train, my friends, he's arrived late in lacking power. But he does, at least, have a plan. And in the absence, there's anything much from the British government, we thought we'd have a look at it. Let's cut it down. Labor says it will freeze the current price. energy price cap, which is 1,971 quid. And they believe that could rise to £4,000 by January. So they're going to freeze it at that, $1971.

It'll pay for that, Labour says, by backdating the windfall tax on oil and gas companies to January, which will raise £8 billion. Quite useful. They'll also then cancel the planned £400,000 rebate, before you go on energy bills. That'll save $14 million, which it also reckons will reduce inflation,

saving another 7 billion on government debt. Now, here's the interesting thing, because we have been moaning at Stama and the opposition to come up with something good because we're waiting for the Tories to choose a new leader, and the Tories are waiting for that new leader to tell them what the hell's going on. Today, the Times reports that 75% of grassroots conservatives

are even back at Sequeer's plan. So here he is, the man with the tan, explaining it in his own words. Have a look. Our proposal, which is to provide, prevent those energy prices going, increases going forward, will also dampen inflation. And therefore, the money that would otherwise be paid on our debt

because inflation is so high would not have to be paid. Joining me now is our financial expert, Gemma Godfrey, and debt expert, Saleem Schaffey from Money Advice Service, Money Buddies. Welcome both. We have been saying, for a long time, where are you? And when you look at Labour's plan, what do you think? Because a host of Tories are going,

that's a good idea. Well, the big problem with, obviously, the increasing energy prices is that it's a humanitarian crisis. It's going to amount to people spending, on average, two-month salary to cover their one-month energy bill. It's completely untenable. So on the one hand, freezing it, you know, that makes sense in terms of trying to lessen the burden.

But the big problem is some of the assumptions they're making that this is going to reduce inflation, and that doesn't necessarily mean that that's going to happen. And also, it's a short-term solution. It's like putting a plaster on something. But ultimately, what it doesn't solve is the fact that 30 energy supplies went bust since the beginning of 2021. And, you know, what are they going to be able to do long term to make us more energy independent? I think, Celine, welcome to the show.

I think the message, and I absolutely agree with you, Gemma, but the one thing that we have been calling out for as a nation is for somebody to stand up from the British government and say we're going to do something. And we've talked about, you know, short-term measures, you know, the green levee, VAT on fuel. This might be a sticking plaster, but actually politically, the people of this country, are hearing Stama and the opposition saying something that they think they can at least think about. And the government's doing nothing, it seems, right? Absolutely. This is something that relates to people's mindsets at the moment.

We're in a national crisis. Lives are going to be lost this winter. If we were at war, what would we be saying? Raise the money. So this is a really strong measure to actually help people feel safe about themselves. If you feel safe about your energy costs going into the winter, you're more likely to start thinking about maybe perhaps spending some, money through the next few months and that will actually help keep the economy going.

We're getting people into the mentality of saving and hoarding their money. When you get into that, then where is investment? Where do people then start to look forward? We had this kind of thing in 2008 when the corporates themselves barely doubled. Their cash reserves simply because they are worried about the future. This is now happening to the nation. Unless we can kind of get out of this mentality of hoarding money now and help people feel safe about spending the money, we're going to be in a situation where,

the economy suffers even more. I completely agree. And I've talked politically, Gemma, that I feel like Starrma has stolen a march, which I didn't think I'd ever say. But let's talk about debt. Last week, we talked about the housing market. We talked about rentals,

and we talked about how difficult it is for people. And one of the annoying things for me about politicians, I'm not sure they quite get it. The words are fine, but people are suffering. And I think Salim's absolutely right. Hey, I heard that guy say to me last week, oh, we should all be aiming towards getting a mortgage. What would you say to the people,

in this right now, who are seriously in debt, forget that they can't pay their energy bills, forget that they will not be able to heat their homes or feed their kids, they're in debt already. It's like they're sinking. Do we have a message? Do we have constructive help for them? Because that, for me, is what should be happening now. Absolutely. And I think one of the biggest problems we have is the interest that's charged on debt. Because it's not just the amount that's owed, it gets bigger and bigger, because the interest is a percentage of what is owed, and it can just skyrocket. And actually, people can find it very hard to get out of. And I think, you know, look, there are lots of different things that people can do

and I absolutely think they should be going to advice centres to try and get some impartial advice. But I think what's really important is to be able to speak up and try and ask for help. So, for example, if there's problems with energy bills, utility providers can actually provide a holiday and allow people more time to pay, reduce their payments,

because it's not in the energy company's interest either that people just stop paying either. Same thing with banks. What's quite easy to do is fall into an unarranged overdraft. And again, get whacked with fees, and that makes things worse. But calling them up and trying to get an, arranged overdraft. Again, it's not a long-term solution, but it could stop them slipping.

But people that are already in debt, prioritising it, focusing on the higher interest debt, not getting swayed into consolidating it, and it may reduce the interest slightly, which is good short term. But if you're paying for longer, again, that could increase the amount as well. So I think really going out and trying to speak up and trying to get some support for each individual's personal circumstances is going to be very important because it can seem overwhelming and affect people's mental health. I think that's the point, isn't it, Salim, that a lot of people watching this will feel they're in such a rut that they cannot see any way out. They're working. I always talk about the jams. I talk about it every week, just about managing.

I have great sympathy for people on benefit. I don't have any sympathy for rich people to get the energy cap. What I'm talking about is those people who are, you know, the mother and the father both work, right? They've got two kids, probably. I'm not painting a picture, but they're paying everything out and they've got nothing. And they're really, really suffering. And the message, I think Jemma makes a great point about mental health. This is dragging this nation down, isn't it? It is. Well, just on the mental health thing. If you have stressed to talk, 20 minutes or more, just around 20 minutes, you start to damage brain structures inside yourself, which are really about connecting with people, connecting with yourself, being able

to express your issues and problems. So alleviating and putting this price cap, capping the price cap this next few months will actually alleviate stress on so many people. In terms of debt, we had the just about managing two years ago. It's just about surviving. Yeah. We're seeing clients now who haven't eaten for a number of days. That's only going to get worse. Can I just Stop there because people say, oh, you do this every night, Carl. Yeah, I do. Because that is not just a sound bite. People will not be eating. I mean, we had somebody on from one of those food banks the other day. He said, I had a middle class family, in effect. Haven't eaten for four days. It's not just homeless people, for God's sake. There are people all over the place going, I cannot afford it. I had a friend. Relevant story, but just take it for what it is. Had a mate today went to buy his daughter, her first secondhand car. The APR had gone from 5.9% to. 22.5%. Everybody is struggling and making money and financial organisations will take advantage, won't they? Absolutely. And I think what we're talking here is about essential items. This isn't somebody buying a luxury item and having to cut back. This is people deciding, again, I get asked

this. The big question I've been asked at the moment is, shall I stay at home and then save on my petrol or shall I go to the office to save on my energy bills? I mean, that is what the decisions people are making. Just imagine that. What would you say about debt? I liked what you said about dead advice companies. Are they, in the past, have they been frowned upon? You say they care and they can help, right? Yes, they are. This is a caring sector.

It's a non-judgmental sector. They're in the roles. They do these roles because they care about people. And one thing about seeing a debt advice agency like ourselves, and there are many others in the UK too, is that we protect clients from the behaviours of creditors. And when we speak to creditors, they change their tone with us and helps keep...

We're like an invisible force feel for clients. And this can make people feel much safer about them. much more relaxed and again be able to get on with their life. When you are in debt, spiraling out of debt and out of control and debt and there's bills coming in, you can't see any clarity to your problem. What debt advice agencies will do is clear the minutiae out of your brain and give you a clear path. Would you advocate them as well? Absolutely.

And I think there's a really clear distinction here between debt advice, impartial advice that's there to help. And then people, the companies that are there to say, well, we're going to consolidate your loan. They're talking about a product. They're selling a product. You're right. There are scams. There are certain terms you have to look for. So that you should really pay a lot of attention to.

But ultimately, free, impartial debt advice that's run by a charity, that is there to be able to help. Somebody once told me, a bank manager years ago told me that banks make money by lending people money. So your theory about going to a debt advice agency and, you know, I'm wallowing and I don't know what to do, you taking it over. They want their money back, but they're also going to have to be realistic. It's like the utility companies. If everybody can't pay their bills, they won't really. have a business. So people need to meet in the mail. Just both of you, the message to people watching this who are in debt, a positive message, a helpful message? What would you say, Jim? I would say,

I think just as Brits, we tend to get very easily embarrassed when we talk about money, but there is absolutely no shame. I mean, it's not just, at all levels of society, people are living off credit cards, you know, but really speaking up and trying to find a solution is going to be incredibly important before it spirals or to try and help get yourself out of it. There are people that want to help. Brilliant. Selim? People shouldn't feel alone. You're not always, You're not alone in this. There's many people in similar positions to themselves. And it's really about just picking up the phone,

speak anonymously. A five-minute chat with a debt advisor with a money buddy can be the difference between sleeping and not sleeping. It can be the difference in heating and not eating. And do you know what I think about this cost of living crisis? I think it's going to change people's behaviour. We've talked about mental health. We've talked about opening up,

people going and seeing a doctor or a psychologist or talking to somebody in debt or companies. We are going to have to learn to probably be a little less British and a little less stiff upper lip and open up, because the message is everybody's in the same boat, right? Jemma Godfrey, Saleem, thank you so much indeed

for coming on the show tonight. Right next on, The Most Capped England Football Player ever, we could use one of those caps on the price of butter, couldn't we? Did you like that? England legend Peter Shiltern on his lifelong struggle with gambling addiction is subject close to my heart. We're coming back in three. Welcome back, my friend's time for Jezzasers-Jerners.

I'm joined by Talk TV's legend Mike Graham and political correspondent Ava Santina. come to... You are a duo. Welcome. We are. We are officially now because it's the second time you've had this on. It is, yes. But the last time we weren't, it's quite successful, wasn't it? Well, it was actually your hosepipe thing's

gone viral. And, Ava, I'm going to start with you. Football is a man's game, said Graham, soon as he seems to have rowed back a little bit tonight, probably Sky Sports of... But he wasn't being... He wasn't meaning it like that. He was just saying it was a matter... Two teams of men were playing football. Do you not agree? He was being wealthy ignorant.

That's a bit harsh. I think he was describing the game. He wasn't describing women's football versus men's football. He simply saw a game which we all saw, which we all got very excited about, because we like a bit of a punch-up. You don't want to see the women's coaches fighting each other, do you?

But you do want to see the men's coaches pushing and shoving each other a bit. It's great fun. The point was he was describing the behavior, the abhorrent behavior of those two managers, and he was suggesting that male violence is exciting and enjoyable. It is. And de facto is more exciting and enjoyable

than the women's football. And that is just a comment so outdated and just shows extended language. How is he not allowed to... needed still in football. How is he not allowed to enjoy men's football if that's what he likes? Why can't he enjoy it more than women's football if that's his opinion? But why do you have to talk about football as if it's two different sports,

the male and a female game? Like it's one sport and two sides of it. He's like totally segregating both sides of the year. When the lioness is won the women's euros, it was called the women's euros. And everyone was talking about how great women's football was. But we can't say men's football is also great? No, but it was brilliant because women were not allowed to play football for so long. I mean, women, for one, in schools, for one, in schools at 11,

I wasn't allowed to play football any longer. And hopefully the women, you know, taking that title, I am very good at it. I'm very good at them. I'm very good at. I reckon I could, I was a goalie. I was in goals. I was making a political joke, Jane.

James? James. My name's James. My name's James. Welcome to Pierce Morgan, Upcensor, with David Graham. Brilliant. James. That went really well. Afghanistan. The Taliban are subjecting women. There's all sorts of stuff. on this, isn't there? I think it's our greatest

shame, actually, at the fallout from Afghanistan. I think it's absolutely despicable what this government has done in terms of getting people back here. There are people over there right now who work with the British army as translators, as communicators, and they're still stuck there, and they are dying. There was a man that I met in Calais just a couple of months ago. I met him on the side. He'd come over on a boat,

desperately trying to get to England. On the way over here, his wife was shot by the Taliban. And that's the history that we've left there. We have to agree on that. The withdrawal, disgusting. and I'm not going to get involved in an argument with anybody on this. But the Americans left us with very little choice. The Americans, don't forget, left the Taliban, billions and billions of quid's worth of equipment,

you know, high-ranking military equipment, which they've now got and they can do anything they like with. This is extraordinary. Watch Priti Patel today. Extraordinary. Watch this. We should stand tall in terms of our collective effort by bringing over 21,000 people and also creating a new life for them

in the United Kingdom. And that speaks volumes to the great work, the tremendous partnerships that we have across government, the ways of working at a time of crisis. I have to say, Eva and I might not agree on most things. Shameful, and she will not be the Home Secretary in four weeks of time. The anniversary of the Taliban, they're terrible, terrible, sorry.

I'm just pleased to see she's still actually doing some work, because I haven't seen us in July. You know, she's not even doing any work, because when she's talking about these people, we've brought 21,000 over, half of those people are in hotels, at an immense cost of the taxpayer, and an immense cost of those people's mental health.

It's disgraceful. Boris Johnson today is described as a fat ponds. Ava Sotina says there's enough to criticise that lump of lard for without describing... I'm joking. There's enough to criticise him for without discussing his weight. My God, I think my eyes nearly fell out of my head. I'm not saying that.

Boris Johnson's done a fine job, though, don't you think? Look, I mean, you know, I think the biggest criticism here is that he's on holiday. The last thing that he did before he went on holiday was he had a meeting with a big energy company, and he decided that what was happening was really shocking and awful for the British people but he couldn't do anything about it,

so he was going to go off to Greece. That doesn't make any sense. Let's bring in quickly, Sir Kea Starman's broken cover tonight, back when his Stone Island top, and they've come up with this plan, which 75% of Tory voters say, and for me, very quickly, David,

it's about... Sorry, sorry, they're actually talking because we're hearing nothing from the government. Because that's the only plan they've seen. They haven't seen a plan for the Tory, so they see a plan from Kea Stahman. Already, though, it's being criticised it will cost twice as much as he says it will cost.

It actually costs 60 billion quid. And as far as Boris is concerned, well, let him stay on holiday. What's the point of him even having a job anymore? He's out of a job. He's not the Prime Minister. He can't do anything. Let him have a long holiday, stay in Greece until October. But did he actually, I mean, I'm not sticking up for him because I'm scared of you a little bit.

Did he want to stay on or did he? Well, he would have rather stayed on, yeah. But what's the point? None of them are there, the MPs. They're all on holiday, aren't they? Nothing. I mean, my thing about Starmer is at least, and I'm not saying it'll work, but at least he's there on a television screen saying to these people suffer.

in the country. Do you know what? There is something. But he's in Mayorker last week, wasn't he? Yeah, he was. And also, you know, back to his Keir's policy, that's not really a whole policy. It's about a tenth of a policy. Very quickly, pets. I know you're into pets. Loads and millions of people had pets during lockdown because they didn't get on with their partners, I suspect. That's a sweeping generalisation. And now, because of the costs of living, they're giving all these pets away.

There's pets everywhere. Apparently they're letting snakes and lizards just out in the street. So, I mean, when the torrents of rainwater... Well, it's raining cats and dogs out there. Cats of dogs. I see what you did there. But there's also going to be snakes. You know, there's going to be lizards. There's going to be terrapins, all floating down the street. Because people have just thrown them out into the streets.

Disgrateful. Floating terrapins, there's David Graham. How exciting. We spice up the cost of living crisis. Are you a pet fan? I mean, I'm not a massive pet fan. I live in London, so I'm not allowed to have one in my flat, am I? You're not allowed to?

No, no, you're not allowed to. You can have a secret hamster. Have you got any pets? No, I've got a dog. Have you? He's going to Ziggy. He's getting it back. He's a band.

Play guitar. Yeah, he's a Labrador. Doesn't play guitar? Doesn't he not? My favourites, Jezzas Journows, are the legendary Mary Graham. What did you really call me, James? Mike Graham, back tomorrow morning, 10 a.m. on Talk TV. Also, Ava Santina, will you come back next week? I love you.

I'd love to, yeah. Are you happy to come back next to? Fantastic. Thank you both very much indeed. Bear in mind, we started this by telling you, it's absolutely hacking it down. And it is hacking it down all across the United Kingdom. Way, but don't worry. It's just going to roll off the earth and not work. That is it from me.

Whatever you're up to tonight, Pierce made me absolutely promised to say this. Keep it uncensored. Have a great night. I'll see you tomorrow at 8 o'clock. You ready for this? Tera!