Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Rabbi Schmuley v Mohammed Hijab

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

On Piers Morgan Uncensored tonight, Piers is joined Rabbi Schmuley and Mohammed Hijab as they go head to head over the Israel-Hamas conflict. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensored, Israel at war the uncensored debate. Muhammad Hijab is a Muslim philosopher, scholar and YouTuber, whose first appearance on the show was viewed by more than 8 million people. Rabbi Shmuli, Botiak, has been called the most famous rabbi in America, is the international best-selling author of Kosher hate, and the Israel warrior. Both men are passionate, both men are influential, and they both have vehemently opposing views. Tonight, they go uncensored and head-to-head. From the news building in London, this is Pearce Morgan Uncensored.

Good evening from London, welcome to Pierce Morgan Uncensored. Debate about the conflict in Israel is intractable. For Israel and its supporters, this is about an existential threat, brutally symbolized by the savagery of the Hamas attacks on October the 7th. For Palestine and this supporters, this is about oppression, spanning many decades. Israel has a unique duty to its people after centuries and pogroms, displacements, and a hodont. Holocaust, it must provide a safe place for Jewish people to live without fear of being murdered for their faith.

But that safe place has taken the place of the Palestinians and too often has come at the cost of their dignity rights and their lives. Last week, Palestinian doctor, Dr. Isaldine Abu al-Aish, who has lost 25 members of his own family to conflict in Israel, saw a ray of hope in what happened in Northern Ireland. I met with Martin McGuinness before and he said to me, we were going confront. confronting each other. Once we started to move side by side as equal, we put an end to that. And that's what we need.

The international community, the world that we can, Palestinians, and it is to move side by side as equal with dignity and respect. Well, Northern Ireland was another conflict which seemed impossible to resolve. It was a long and agonizing and deadly process.

But we got there in the end because both sides talked endlessly about their grievances. their hopes, their needs, and eventually they did find unity. They find a way to come together. Clearly, we're not going to find peace in the Middle East tonight. But we are going to do something that doesn't happen very often. We're bringing together two very opinionated, passionate, influential people, very opposing views.

And we're going to have a proper debate. And we're going to see if somewhere there is perhaps more that we can agree on than we first imagined. So thank you for joining me, gentlemen. We tossed a coin before we came on air tonight. Actually, you won the toss, and you said you want to go second. I defer to my brother. And the way this will work, Muhammad, we have four sections of this debate. And at the start of each one, you'll both get one minute uninterrupted

to say what you want to say about each of the themed titles of each block. So you go first, and at the end of your minute, you'll hear a sound, and when you hear that, you end, and then a rabbi Shmiri gets his chance to speak. So the first theme is a simple one. Are Hamas to blame? You have a minute, Mohammed, from now. From one perspective, Hamas started the battle because obviously from October 7th,

even they themselves were titled it, Tofan al-Aqqsa or the flooding of al-Aqqqqa. But from another perspective, if you really look at from an international law perspective, we're talking about 1967, we're talking about a resolution, Syria Resolution 242, in which it is actually stated

that Israel is a belligerent state because they're occupying the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. And therefore, the war has been continual for a very long time according to international law. But let's remove Hamas from the situation altogether. Let's remove them. What do you have?

You have the West Bank. And what do you have in the West Bank? You have 187 children who have been put in prisons. They have been put in prisons, according to Bethlehem, without charge. You have 44 children before October the 7th that have been killed before October the 7th in just 2003 alone. So if you remove Hamas from the equation, you have the West Bank. You remove dominance from the equation.

You have the West Bank. What do you have? You have occupation. You have settlement, which you condemned, rightfully so. You condemn that on your show. The settlement's there. Okay. Rabbi Shmurli.

Resolution 242 in the UN doesn't mention a single thing about aggression or aggressor. That is a total fabrication, and it speaks about disputed territories. But let's be clear. The occupier of Gaza is Hamas. They won an election in 2006. Had a civil war with Mahmoud Abbas, took the Palestinian. authority officials, threw them off buildings, killed Muslims, killed Arabs. Mahmoud Abbas is afraid to go to Gaza.

He's terrified of Hamas. He hasn't been there since 2007. And let's be clear, Hamas is an abomination to Islam. Sultan Salah Khaledin, the greatest Muslim conqueror of all time, after whom the main artery in Gaza's name, he said that you have to allow all prisoners to be redeemed. He would never hold hostages. This is, and remember, Islam is about fair. treatment of prisoners of war. Hamas beheaded Thai non-Jewish workers. You asked your last

appearance here for real first-hand sources. I'm the first-hand source. I saw it in Kibbutz Salomim. They raped women. They had sex with dead women's bodies. They are evil and do the right thing and call them evil. All right. We've had a minute each. Okay. We've got a passionate start. Muhammad, let me ask you about Hamas. I want to first, before you do that, I want to commend you, I want to commend you, because bringing me on for the second time, I have to commend you. And the fact that you actually condemned the settlements is very good, but people want to know, do you think the IDF are a terrorist organization? No.

You don't think they're a terrorist organization? Okay, well, if you look at the UN definition of terrorist organization, they say killing civilians for political organizations, why they're not. I don't think you're a terrorist. According to the UN definition, it's killing civilians for political objectives, why are they not terrorist? Well, you've asked me a straight question. I don't think they are a terror organization.

So when you see babies like this, the ones who kill babies like this are not terrorists. It's horrific. So the people will kill babies like they're not terrorists. Well, let me respond. Let me respond. I believe Israel has a right to defend itself. Okay.

I agree that they need to get rid of Hamas who are terror groups. In this way? Well, here's the quandary for me morally, right? Why is that a quandary, though? I'll tell you why. With Hamas, it's not a country. I'll tell you why. In war, in war, when you declare war, as Britain did with a Nazi...

100 to 1 ratio? No, no. 100 to 1. There are a far higher number of children in Gaza proportion to population than almost anywhere in the world. Piz. So when they go after Hamas... Give me a chance.

Very sadly, Muhammad, let me finish. Stop to him. No, no, no, no. You are the one who insisted on equal time. I never did, but you will not respect the whole time. I will come to you. He's going to ask you afterwards.

He's going to ask you your question. In 30 seconds, I'll come to you. Let me finish, please. I am in charge here, Mohammed. So my final point on this is, unfortunately, in war, civilians get killed. 100 to 1 ratio. Yes, yes.

100 to 1 ratio? Yes, they get killed. No, no, no, 100 to 1 ratio. Civilians get killed. Please listen. Much freely, and you come. You know, Pierce, can I say respectfully, and I mean this is no insult? I'm amazed that you're intimidated by this man.

I feel, I feel, well, we'll all do respect. He's not. If I can speak. He brought me in the second time. If I can speak. I wouldn't bring him back if I can speak. If I can speak. And he raised it's a very bad question, by the way.

No, he does not, because I have, I have, before he did this debate, he went on X on Twitter and said, I'm only doing it if there's equal time. And then he is violating that. I never asked for equal time. I just want to be heard, but he won't even let me be heard. Let me explain something to you. You said in a video the other day, and you can look at me in the eye, you said that Jews are now trembling.

Muhammad, I am not, no, no, no, don't interrupt me. I am not trembling. It's all my, it's all my Instagram page. Now, you see this Yamika? It means that I represent something. I'm an ambassador. You're an ambassador of Islam. You're a law.

You are talking about a religion that started the world's first universities, educated women. Fatima started the first first university in the 9th century in Fes, Morocco. Now we have a man who says that he's a representative of Islam. Bring it back to the debate. I will. I will. I will.

He will defend Hamas's butchery. Running away. Savagery. He doesn't care that Hamas is an abomination to Islam because... Running away. Because Islam... But he hasn't done that. The children in Gaza are dying because Hamas uses them as bulletproof vest.

The United States and France and England said yesterday that the Al-Shifa Hospital is a military base. Okay. That's a tiny veneer. Let him have his minute. And that's a tiny veneer. emergency rooms. Okay. But the underneath all of it is a military base. And let me tell you something. If it's true that any of these countries care about the Muslims in Gaza because they believe what he's saying, that Israel is killing them. This is a map of all the countries that

took place last week in Riyadh to save the Palestinians of Gaza from Israel. Do you know how many that's Israel a tiny thing? You know how many of them took in even one Palestinian from Gaza? Zero, nothing. All right. Look at that map. Because they want to say. The Arabians. The Arabs want to see Hamas, don't intimidate me, don't bully me. Don't intimidate me. I'm not afraid of you. Guys, I've got to be able to ask questions. It's a debate.

Let me ask you one specific question which he raised, which I don't think actually is your belief. I don't think you have defending what Hamas did on October the 7th. Yeah, haven't. I think you share are they evil? Are they evil? Are they evil? Are they evil? Are they evil?

Are they evil? Are they evil? Rambashmah shmash evil. You're now doing what you accused him of doing. So let me ask you, what is your viewer for mass post-October 7th? I think that they, just like anybody else, have to be examined, have to have to look at all the... What's your opinion about them? Yeah, I think that if, look, here's my opinion.

Let me be straightforward about this, right? Anybody who kills civilians, anybody, whether it's the IDF, I'm consistent in this manner. If it's proven beyond reasonable doubt that these people have killed civilians in both of our faith traditions, in Islam and Judaism, in the Quran is mentioned, in the prophet, he said it himself, you cannot kill a woman, you cannot kill a child. I condemn them. I condemn them. That's why I do. Straight away, whether it's Muslim, whether it is non-Muslim, whether it is Christian or anybody else.

I've already said that. So I'm not being inconsistent here. My question is, if that is exactly the barometer that we're using, if that's the moral reasoning that we're using, then we have to say, look, if you have a 100 to one ratio, and that's what it is, a hundred to one ratio. And do you know how I got this figure? I got this figure from the IDF themselves,

because they have reported to them. Okay, but let me ask you this. does Hamas deserve to stay in power after what they did? I don't think we should have Hamas in power. I think we should. No, let me tell you. So how do you get rid of them? We should have a Palestinian authority with bigger armies and airports,

with proper tanks and with airplanes like every country in the world. You know what? You might be right. Absolutely. They won't allow it. How do you get rid of it? How do you get rid of Hamas? What you don't do, I can tell you for a fact,

is try and kill 30,000 of them with 100 to one ratio. because if you do that, then you're committing genocide because you'd have to kill 3 million Palestinians. Rabbi Shoney? Do you even know the definition of genocide? I haven't said genocide. You just said it. No, I said, no, I said if you...

What is the definition of genocide? Conditional. I said, if you do it. You always claim to be an academic. You're always telling your oxer credentials. Conditional. Conditional. Conditional.

Genocide is where. If you do it, you'll be genocide is where. I didn't say... You target an ethnicity for extinction. Geno, ethnicity, side murder. Yes, if you do it. Excuse me. If you're a lot.

If you kill three million of them, there are one point, there are one point, there are one point eight million. Was the Holocaust of genocide? Muslim Arabs who live in total peace in Israel as equal citizens. In fact, Israel practice reverse discrimination against the Jews because the Jews are conscripted

to fight Hamas. So, if Israel, excuse me, no, you will not interrupt me. If Israel, you will not interrupt me. You will not interrupt me. You will not interrupt me. You will not interrupt me. You will not interrupt me. I am not afraid of you.

Stop talking about it. Stop shanking. Now, let me be clear. Let me be clear. Let me know with your shout over each other. Well, then let, then you need to control your guests with all due respect. Okay. He said, he said equal time and there's no equal time.

Now, there's no equal time. If Israel was interested in a genocide of the Palestinians, why do they have 1.8 million equal Arab Muslim citizens who are in the Israeli Supreme Court, who are one third of the medical profession? Do you know that an Arab judge put the president of Israel in jail for accused rape that was a accused rape that was Moshekatsab. That's how little Israel is in apartheid state, genocidal state.

This man sitting next to me in Muhammad Hijab will not distinguish between self-defense when Hamas comes to brutalize and murder your people versus when an army like France stops retaliate to simply protect their own. You don't believe the Jews should have a right to defend them. Say it all right then, then say it. The Jews have the right to defend themselves.

They do. Yes, they do, of course. Everybody has a right to defend themselves. So that's why we have to go on. They can go to Gaza and stop Hamas, correct? Wait. Rambach movie. But, no, they can go in, but don't know.

Hey, hold on. Let me tell you my position. Let me tell you my mother. So they can go in, thank God. He asked me a question, can I answer it. Yes, they can go into even fight, even Abu Abedda, the general of Hamas. He said, we're in a waiting for you. That's why he's being said, hold on, you've asked me a question.

Go ahead. They do have a right, what my advocate, what I've been advocating all along is face-to-face confrontation. What I'm against, hold on, excuse me, what I'm against is a hundred 100 to 1 ratio because if you have 100, let me get a nation. I'm going to come to visit block two. All right. Okay, fine. Kamas is hiding under hospitals.

What face-to-face confrontation? Khamas is shooting children who are going to sell. I'm okay with face-to-face confrontation. I like it. Block two is exact. It's a honorable way. Block two is exactly this question. Let's get to the second topic, right?

This time, Rabbi Shmouli, you will go first with a minute to say what you want to say. And then, Mohammed, you want to get yours. So the theme is this and the question is this for block two. Has Israel gone too far in its response to the October the 7th terror attacks? OK, Rabbi Sharia, you have a minute starting now. I just came here by taxi and passed a statue of Winston Churchill. That's in the lifetime of our parents, okay? He is the greatest British statesman of the 20th century.

You know what he did when he had a genocidal threat, knowing that Hitler wanted to eviscerate, annihilate Britain? He carpet bombed all of Germany, Dresden, Essen, Hamburg. Israel has not even gotten close to that. Israel does not send its air force to carpet bombs, he says it sends in its military. I have a friend who died, six children, 39, because he was personally trying to stop at Hamas terror tunnel.

Israel is surgical. Israel is only going after the fighters. Israel has opened humanitarian corridors for the Palestinians to go south. Hamas shoots them and make sure they don't go. Hamas builds its military structures. Shiff of a hospital is this much hospital and it's this much military.

They love using Palestinians and that's why they've stolen their money. They got about $16 billion from the international community. There isn't one bomb shelter in Gaza. They don't care about the civilians at all. Israel's doing the right thing. Muhammad, you have a minute. What I'm saying is the 100 to 1 ratio comes from the following figures.

We know that 10,000 civilians have died of them. According to the IDF, as reported by the Guardian, 60 dozens, they say, about 60, Hamas died, which we're being liberal by saying 100 to 1 figures. For everyone Hamas, you have to kill 100 civilians. That's effectively what we're saying. If the trajectory continues as it is, if the trajectory continues as it is,

then you have to kill 3 million Palestinian civilians in order to kill 30,000 Hamas fighters. If you want to extinguish them, eviscerate them, annihilate them, destroy them, you have to do that. Now you have Herzog, who is the president that you interviewed, saying that all Palestinians, they are responsible. This man is being more slippery. He's being more slippery than the lubricants

that he sells in his daughter's sex shop. And that's the reality of the situation. Did you really just say that? You seem obsessed with Jewish sex. It's bizarre. Yesterday, you actually spoke about Ben Shapiro's wife. You said to Ben Shapiro, your wife's a carrot where you're more of a man. Is that what you're trying to say?

Then you said the Jews at BDSF. You're speaking about sexual lubricants while people are dying. You know, Muhammad, get your head out of the Jewish bedroom. It's really bizarre. Let me ask Muhammad a question. I don't disagree with you that so far, it seems to me, obviously, a fact that many, many more Palestinian civilians, innocent people, are getting killed as retribution by the Israelis for what happened on October 7th.

That's indisputable, right? Their argument is that they're going after a terror organization, Hamas, and unfortunately in war, as Rabbi Shmuli correctly said about what Churchill did in World War II. Churchill was wrong. Churchill was wrong. Was he a war criminal? Yes, he was. Yes, he was. Churchill was a war criminal. All the British people.

Let me do the question. Was Georgia Sixth? All of them were criminals. All of them were criminals. Yes, of course. So anyone that came on, hang on, Rabbi Shrewley. Let me ask. So let me get straight.

Collective punishment. You think Winston Churchill was a war criminal, yes. In standing up to the Nazis. By killing the babies. Who killed 12 million people. I believe he was a war criminal. By killing, in Dresden and Hamburg. By indiscriminate killing.

Collective punishment. My morality says that's impossible. Okay, that means the British people who supported him and voted him in. My morality says that's impossible. Just a second. That's what I believe. But the British people... You believe you're the war criminal?

Yes. So therefore, your belief is that no retaliatory action by any time... No, you can retaliate to the man, not to the babies. Tell me a war in history... Yes. Where civilians haven't been killed? No, I'm not saying civilians haven't been killed. Just war or otherwise.

It's about the ratio. No, no. What is the ratio? What is the ratio? 100 to 100 to 100 is unacceptable. What is the way? 100 to one is... Okay.

One is an invention. So let me give you a ratio. Yeah. How many people do the Nazis kill? I don't know. We know they kill six million. They kill 12 million people. I don't know.

We don't know. It's doing six million Jews. Sure. Right. So how many died in Dresda? How many civilians died in Germany? Do you know? I don't know exactly that.

Right. So you don't actually know what you're talking about. I do you know what I'm talking about because I know in Dresden and Hamburg. You said it's about you. Yes. In some wrong. Yeah, go ahead. The same wrong.

You said it's to do with the ratios. Yes. But you don't know the ratios. No, no, I know for a fact. You call Winston Churchill a... What are the numbers? What are the numbers? Wait a minute, Rabbi Smooley.

When you call Winston Churchill a criminal for basing on ratios, you don't even know what they are. No, I know for... No, there's difference of opinion among the scholars. No, there is. There is different. Tell us the opinions.

What are they? Hold on. How many in Dresden? Excuse me. Stop speaking for you. How many in Dresden? Are I speaking to him or you? How many in Dresden?

Whatever the number? You don't know at all. You don't know at all. If it's indiscriminan, I'm against it's part. Dresden's about 25, The Germans were saying $250,000. We know it's about $25,000 today. Let me be clear.

Winston Churchill was the greatest statesman of the 20th century. He saved the world from Nazi terror. That you could live in a country that is only around today because of the bravery of that man showing no gratitude is the height of... Stick on topic. Stick on topic. And to call all the British people who defeated the Nazis, who defeated the Nazis, stop interrupting me.

Stick on topic. They're not each other speak. Four criminals. His parents, all the other people with four criminals. It's off topic. It's wrong. No, no, no, let me be clear. Off topic.

Off topic. Don't interrupt each other. Let me be clear. Muhammad Hijab trades in falsehoods. 300 to 1. What are you talking about? 100 to 1. And now he says that, now he says the Jews are about to kill 3 million Palestinians.

I didn't say they're about to. The fact that this man considers himself an Oxford academic, I was the rabbi at Oxford University for 11 years. This is a travesty. This is a travesty. Did you graduate from there? Did you graduate from any question, That he, that he, did you graduate from any university? Did you graduate?

Let me answer. Let me answer. Let me answer. Let me answer. Let me answer. Let me answer. I'm a. Let me, I'm a rebuttal.

Can I speak? This is pointless. Go ahead. Rabbi Svili. Is there a limit to the number of civilians in Gaza that Israel can kill to try and eliminate a mass? That's a great question. There is. Thank you.

But let me ask it. Not even one. Not one beautiful Palestinian child should have to die because of us Hamas kicked out Mahmoud Abbas. That wasn't my question. And not one should have to die. The answer to your question is that Hamas, if they surrender unconditionally, then all of that, okay, fine. But is there a limit?

Let them allow all the civilians. Israel said that all the civilians can leave. All the civilians should go south. They beg them. And that's something that militaries never do. Churchill did not tell the people in Jerusalem, come on. And you see, you came with all your notes. We get the point.

I'm not here. We get the point, Mohammed. I get the point. This is all proof that he can't debate me. So he has to use these images. Debate me. We didn't ask you to come on with all your exhibits. Rabbi Shmoudini.

Let me ask you a question. A member of the cabinet in Israel was actually quoted as saying that nuclear weapons were an option that Israel could use. A, no one has ever confirmed Israel has nuclear weapons. It's long being suspected. That seemed pretty clear confirmation. Why are you against nuclear weapons? If you're not against stress, then why are you against you? Let me ask the question.

Let me ask the question. No, but why are you against it? I've done this before this job. Let me do it. Go on. Okay? So when that guy says that, if you're living as an innocent civilian in Gaza,

what the hell are you thinking? An Israeli government member threatens the use of a nuclear weapon, which would obliterate pretty much all of Gaza and everyone in it. Thank you for the question. If that were true, why hasn't Israel used nuclear weapons against Nasser when he invaded? No, that's too close to that. Well, hold on, hold that. It's true.

This guy is, no, no. I know the guy, and I spoke to him about it. His name is Amichai Aliya. Israel has never carpet bombed any Arab... Against Nassah was preemptive. Ever, ever, ever. 1967 was preemptive. He was asked a question by a provocative interview, and he said,

well, if you're going to bomb the same thing, like it was a Muhammad's job type. You want to kill all the Arab. Three million people just drop a bomb. He said, well, if you want to drop a bomb, he was being dismissive and stupid. And he put out a statement in the next day saying that never in history would do that, Jews ever even contemplate doing that. Let's remember one thing. The only place in the Middle East,

one second, peers, the only place in the Middle East where Arabs have any freedoms, Israel. The only place where they vote openly, Israel. The only place where Palestinian women could dress the way they want, Israel. And let's be clear, when when Muhammad Hijab gets up and says that we Palestinians want to be a religion of death, you know, I just got a haircut coming here by an Arab barber here in London. And he said to me, I hope you, I hope you, I hope you, because he doesn't represent us. We want to live. We want to have good lives.

We want to be religious. We want to eat halal. But we don't want to die from Ardenah. You are not a Muslim. You're in Islamist. You're in Islamist. Let me ask Muhammad a question. Let me ask Muhammad a question.

Hamas has 240 hostages. Stop. Stop. Hamas has 240 hostages they took, including babies. Sure. Young kids. Sure. Grandmothers who survived the Holocaust.

I mean, an unspeakable further criminal act. We're going to agree. Of course. Why should Israel agree to any ceasefire so long as those hostages are still being kept hostage? Look, my position is very clear. They should fight man to man on the ground. They are.

On the ground. That's exactly what they're doing. That fighting, no one can... That's exactly what they're doing. Man to man, they took hostages. They took babies as hostages. He's asked me the question. They took infants as hostages.

That in answer the question. You're getting excited here. I know it's your sexual... You're the sex rabbi. Now you're back to my sex rabbi. Leave it. You're getting over excited. Leave it.

Leave it, please, Mahmend. Get your head out of my bedroom. He's getting excited with me. Let me ask the question. You guys answer them. Muhammad, answer my question. Why, if you're Israel, would you ever agree to a ceasefire if those hostages aren't released? I'm telling you what my position is.

My position is man-to-man combat. Which is what they're doing now. No. That part of it is understandable. Do you understand what they're doing? No problem. But what I think is not understandable, what is not acceptable, because you said, what's a proportional response?

That's the question you can. Keep asking everybody. My answer to you is a proportionate response is one where in which the ratios are not 100 to 1. Excuse me. I would say that Hamas, by what they did on October the 7th. 100 to 1 versus 3 to 1. Wait a minute.

Mass. Wait a minute. Ordered by doing what they did, they ordered de facto the disintegration of northern Gaza that we're seeing. Of course. And the deaths. Have you seen this? And the deaths of thousands of civilians. Let him finish.

They knew what was going to happen. I agree. So that's why they should go. In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and allowed, well, Hamas won an election in 2006. They could have built Singapore. You know what they did?

They took larger foreign aid per capita than all of Europe received from the Marshall Plan. And look with France and Britain. Look how beautiful London is. They took that money and they bought bullets and bombs. They did not build hospitals, not school. They stole it from the Palestinian people. Ismail Hania is worth four.

billion dollars. I don't care about it. Khaled my child is worth four billion dollars. Why are you talking about him? Call him an evil criminal. You're afraid to. He says he won't. See, he will never condemn Hamas because he has condemned

No, I have. I have. I've heard him do it. Excuse me, wait, no, no, no, he condemned Hamas. He's never condemned Hamas. Well, let me ask you, do you condemn Hamas? On what basis? Here we go, see.

Playy game. Do you say now, let me ask you a question. Every answer is, on what basis? What this? What this? What's your source? Let him on. If you ask me, if you do condemn IDF, I'll say, specify your context.

In what exact context? Do you defend Hamas as a terrorist organization that just went and killed 1,200 people, burned them alive, beheaded them and took 250 hostages? Do you condemn them or not? Get your head, get your head into the debate and do you condemn them or not? See, this is a debating attack. It's 2-1-1. Let an answer. It's 2-1-1.

It's become 2-1. You're not a victim. Stop the victim, but now it's 2-1-1. Stop the victim of Congress. You love portraying yourself as a strong man. Now you're a victim, it's two-on-one. You probably could take two-on-one. So answer it.

Answer the question. Is Hamas a terror organization you condemn it? It's a reasonable question because you asked me, is the IDF a terrible? Okay, beautiful. I'll answer your question. Directly. Hamas is as much a terrorist organization. No, Hamas shouldn't be called a terror organization if the IDF isn't.

Why? Because if it's either. There we are. There we are. Either both or neither. Okay, but just to extrapolate your position, because you believe the IDF is, then you're also saying that Hamas is.

Let me tell you my position. And say it. Say it. I'm going to speak. I'm going to speak. Rabbi Shuli, let me get the answer. The Unholy won't let me speak. Right.

I'm asking you a question. At least that is funny. The first ride you did the whole thing. You like that one. Even we could be friends. Let me ask. I like that one. I like that one.

I like that one. Given you've already stated you believe the IDF is a terror organization. Yeah, yeah. Am I to assume that you believe. Legally or morally. Hang on. I'm much to assume that you believe Hamas is now. This is my position. But you have to give me 10 seconds at least to answer, right?

Legally, I think you shouldn't call Hamas a terrorist organization if you're not calling IDF terrorist organizations. That's my position. But you do both. Call them terrorism. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let him answer. Hold on. Let me finish. Because if, as we said, the UN definition of what a terrorist organization

is to kill civilians in order to achieve a political objective. However, on a moral and theological, philosophical level, I agree with Rosalind Higgins, who was the justice of the International Criminal Court, the Court of Justice ICJ. By the way, she was a Holocaust survivor as well. She was Jewish.

And her position is that she believes that the word terrorism or terrorist is actually useless. And she says that it's a... I'm putting to her... Can you answer my question? He's going on like that. Just to evade the question.

Let me finish. So I'm answering your question. So I'm saying that as a moral construct, I think it's a new... colonial social construct used by people in order to label some people as terrorists as normal. So as a moral category, I don't designate it as a moral category. You know, as a legal category.

Do you believe, do you personally, Muhammad and Jev... Do you believe that the IDF and Hamas are both terror organizations? I think, yes. If you say yes to IDF, you should say yes to Hamas. You say no to Hamas. That's what I'm asking you. What you believe. If you say yes to IDF, you can say yes to Hamas. I'm asking you what you believe. Yes, I believe legally, according to the definition. If you say yes to Hamas, you can say yes to the idea.

Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, we could go on for the next. I've got to, we are going to... If you say no to the idea, we can't say... It's fine. We're going to... We're going to the next block. Is peace possible? Okay.

Not on this basis, right? But we've got to try and get to peace. So you get a minute each again. Muhammad, you'll go first this time. So you get a minute from now. Justice is a prerequisite for peace. In South Africa, when the apartheid system, which we know for a fact

Israel is an apartheid state because it has laws like the right of return, which only, only, only allow Jewish people to come into the country. And if they convert, by the way, to Christianity or to Islam, they are stripped from that right, which is, it meets completely the definition of apartheid as poor Cornell law school

and according to the UN Convention, 1973. It's an apartheid system. And as a prerequisite of an apartheid system, you have to be a racist. If you support that, you're a racist. No doubt about it. So number one, 1773 apartheid law, if the black South Africans have been displaced,

if they have been displaced by the whites, and then they were trying to come back into their country, and they were not allowed them. Then you asked him, as peace possible. That's not the question we'd be asking them. We'd be asking them as justice possible, and that's the question that we're going to be asking, because he can all sit there and talk about all these things,

where the IDF, his son, Mendi, is being attacked by, vibrated by the rockets, and he's selling him in his door selling by various of the public. Unnecessary thing at the end, again. I hope you keep that in. Let me hear it in. One minute on, is peace ever possible? Of course.

I revere countries like the United Arab Emirates, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, where I've spoken several times. I am safer as a Jew wearing a yarmulke in Dubai and Abu Dhabi than I am on the campus of Columbia University or even Harvard these days. The Mohammed bin bin Zayat is just an incredible leader. I saw in the Gulf states the Islam that Muhammad Jab rejects, what the Islamic world embraces.

That's why they made peace with Israel. It's a technologically advanced, tolerant, forward-looking, very traditional, very religious Islam. And that's why they've made peace with Israel. And peace will continue to be made. All of these countries are praying for Israel to destroy Hamas. Because Mohammed Dijab is an outlier.

He's an extremist and his views, whether his views as he represents them at Speaker's corner of things about women being subject. How do we get to peace? Let me just be clear. All of the Arab countries, want Hamas destroyed. And the proof is, when they had their conference, Riyadh, last week, they did not even once call to bring in any evacuees because they want Israel to establish

a more democratic regime in Gaza, which will they will do. Israel is winning this war. To both of you, right? Just give me a very, very quick snapshot of in 20 years' time how peace could have been achieved, very quickly. Okay. The first thing is, when Israel withdrew in 2005, almost 20 years ago, if Hamas had not come to power, if they had taken all the international aid that they got, tens of billions of dollars. Peace would have been achieved by building businesses, entrepreneurship, schools. Okay, we get there now. Okay, we get there now by destroying Hamas, making sure that there's democratic elections, but the Palestinian people, not Muhammad's job, not Shalibh, not personal aid, not personally. I mean, you both agree Hamas should be gone,

right? We agreed that there should be a bigger Palestinian authority with armies and airplanes. I'll come to you in a moment, ma'am. And the way we do have agreement. And the way we have peace. And the history of the world, no two democratic powers have ever gone to war. And That's why since the end of the Second World War, there's been no war here in Europe. We need to see a democratic Gaza. Hamas won an election in 2006. There's a war in Europe now, by the way.

Correct, because it's against a tyranny. I said no two democracies ever gone to war. Putin is not a democracy. He's a tyrant. In the history of the world, no two democracies ever fought a war. We have a democracy in Gaza. So what does peace look like in 20 years?

Peace looks like the Arabs voting for their rulers, voting and backing them, seeing Israel as a partner, not being humiliated that because of this tiny little red dot, That's humiliation. Two state solution? I, well, you know, Aha.

I'll tell you, I'll tell you. I'll tell you. I'll tell you. I'll tell you. If two state is a Hamas state wanting to eviscerate Israel, of course he doesn't believe in it. But he doesn't believe in a two-state solution.

He believes in a final solution. No, no, no, no, really scares me. You don't believe in a final solution. The way you speak about Jews, you believe in a final solution, and it's scary. Do you believe in a two-street? I love Jewish people. If that second state is Mexico and Canada,

Yeah. If that second state is, is, is, is, is, is Gaza, then of course not, because it'll just become another genocidal enemy wanting to wipe Israel off the map. That's pretty unequivocal. He doesn't really want a Tuesday solution. I don't want a two-state solution. That's a, that's a terror state to destroy Israel. Of course not. I personally believe this whole question should be left to the Palestinians and what kind of solution they want. However, having said that, this man is written in his book, a war in Israel, that is the settlement. They don't write a book called the war. It's called the Israel Warrior. It's something like that.

Fantastic. Fantastic. I appreciate that. In that book, he writes. The issue of settlements that me and you both condemn his... I do, yeah. Yeah, we do. He doesn't condemn it because he sees an ancient biblical reason to be in that whole land. I think Arabs in Israel should be able to live wherever they want. I want Arabs to live in Jerusalem. I want Arabs to live in Tel Aviv.

I want Jews to live there. I don't believe in the U.S. Keep talking. I am so proud that Israel has 1.8 million Arab Muslim citizens who are protected by the ideas. He calls the idea of terrorists. They are defending lives. What you should be less proud of is the rapid expansion of these settlements on the West Bank. That's right.

It has been incredibly divisive. Do you condemn that? It's been, in my view, illegal. It's been declared illegal. Illegal. By everyone's view? Well, Pierce, let me come. There are many things I'll defend Israel about.

That is in defense. Let me answer. Let me answer. If you go to places in Judean Samaria and the West Bank, why are you called the biblical land? Who cares? Why do you call something Arabia? It's where the Arabs are.

No, no. It's not. It's not that. Now, you don't know history. It was always your day in Samaritan. The West Bank is the West Bank of a river. We don't call California the West Bank of the Mississippi River. Now, let me go back.

Let me go back. Call it Canaan. If you go to the Barcon Industrial Park in Judean Samaria, you will see, I've met the Palestinians. I've interviewed them. They are paid 20 times the salary working for people you call settlers. They want them there. It brings civilization. It's only jihadis who don't want it.

It's only jihadis. And that's why you're saying. That's not true. That's not true. I've interviewed them. many, many Palestinians are going to do, who definitely do not want them. You know, you know, you know, Palestinian Shwarno Lippon, Mahmur Abbas with no democracy? Let me come to Mahmali.

Shmali. Yes, my friend, Muhammad. Go ahead, Muhammad. Please, please, please. You're wearing my favorite blue color. Of course I'll let you speak. Fantastic. For that reason?

Brilliant. Just because I'm wearing the blue? My mother loved that color. I thought it would have been because of Israel because you. Oh, that's right. You wore the Israeli colors today. Is it? Can we shake hands?

No, please. I don't want to. Because your hands are shaking. I'm sorry. I mean, look how it's peaceful. Why? You wouldn't shake hands? No, no.

I'll shake hands with you. You wouldn't shake my hand? After what you've said today about me, I can't shake your hand. After what you said about my sex life and I'm shaking your hand. Stop, stop, I just want to say. You won't shake my hand. Do you know?

Him speak. You won't shake my head. The problem is that him speak. That's really sad. I guess it will be no peace. You know, what he said there is a little bit telling him because, you know, the blue colors and Israel and that kind of stuff, he defended Dershowitz, which was Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer, for that very reason,

because he's a support of Israel. I defended it. I don't know anything. You wrote on the observer. You wrote on the observer. You're abysmal ignorance. It's shocking. He and Alan Dershowitz had a huge fight over him defending Qatar.

Did you go to the island? Come on, guys. Did I go to the island? Mohamed. Mohammed. Anyway. 20 years time. Mohamed.

No, no. I don't care about Anna Derswold. I know I'm not interested. I want a book called Cochure Sex for Marriages. I didn't write it to get into other people's bedrooms. I don't care about either of your sex lives, okay? He seems pretty interested in mine. 20 years time.

I'm not interested. 20 years time, what does a potential piece look like? I don't know. That's a speculative question, to be honest. You're asking a hypothetical. You said you're going to do a hypothetical question. I asked you a hypothetical. I asked you a hypothetical.

You said I don't do hypotheticals. I want to give me hope. Why did you not answer my hypothetical question? Which one? That a Belfast question. Why? Remember I ask you the Belfast question and you didn't answer it. I don't think there is.

The only parallel thing between... Why didn't you answer that one? Because there are different situations. No, but it's hypothetical. You're asking me a hypothetical now. You don't have to answer. I'm just asking you. No, but why do you have a dibble standard?

I don't think asking you how peace might look like is hypothetical. No, it's talking about the future in a hypothetical. Let me rephrase it. How would you like it to be resolved this process? Okay, fantastic. Okay? Okay, look. Let's look at history.

River to the sea. That's how you want it, right? No, Israel. Let him answer. Don't answer for him. Honestly, you'll be surprised to know this. And people talk about, you said this. I have to correct you.

I looked at the Hamas Charter, Hamas themselves, yeah? In Article 16, even they say you can have, in Article 31, they say that you can have a shared line between Christians, Muslims, and Jews. They even say that. I think the most radical elements, everybody you want, the jihadis, these ones, that one, that one, no one actually wants the extermination of Jewish people. Actually, that's not true. Who?

Who? Who? Let me see. I tell you who. The Famaas Charter appears. You don't let me speak. Kamaish Charter calls for the Kamax. Charter says that behind every single tree and stone where a Jew...

That's a Hadith al-Brah. Now you're saying that the Prophet... That would even be my... It says that every Jew has to be murdered. How could you possibly deny that? That's a Hadith. You know, you have... What's an Hadiths?

What does it say? The Hadith says in the end of... It's an eschatological had... It's an eschatological haddh... Which says that on the end of times, there'll be a war and there will be trees and stones that say behind me is a Jew killing. So Muhammad is saying that the Jews should be... Yeah, yeah.

This is a had a had... What does it mean? What does it mean? What does it mean? What does it mean? It means that it's an eschatological. It's not an imperative. What does it mean?

It's not an imperative. Are you obligated to kill a Jew on a bit? According to Adhese or not. Okay. I'll tell you. I'll tell you. Wait a minute. So you'll pick and shoot.

No, excuse me. Let me ask you a question. Yes. Let me ask you a question. Is this a theological question? It's I'm answering you. This is a hadithic. You know this because you're a theologian.

It's not a liturgical. It's not literal. It's not like first Samuel's chapter 15 verse number three, where it says, go and kill the men, women, children, don't know, which by the way, Netanyahu quoted. No, that's not true. He quoted the ballot.

That's not true. It said you can kill them one minute. It's not like that. See, this is the blood liable of saying the Jews want to do not get a word in here. But here, Pierce and, Pierce. No, let me put a point to, I'm going to put a point to Marley.

I'll tell you who wants the absolute annihilation of every Jew thing get her hands on. All the Hamas terrorists who crossed the border on October the 7th who gleefully recorded it, fine. I'm boasted about it. See, no, I was fine. And the Hamas.

Wait a minute. And the Hamas of official spokesman who only last week said they want to do it again and again and again. If you don't think Hamas are wedded as an organization to the annihilation of Jewish people, you are living in their charter. In their charter, it says that they will murder. They said in their action in London. That I agree with. Hold on.

Let me tell you why I agree or disagree. Both the IDF and Hamas on paper say they don't want the annihilation of Muslims to Jews. No. No, no. The Hamas Charter says that's not true. No, it doesn't. Look at it. Look at it. The Hamas says explicitly that every Jew will be murdered by Khammi. They are a genocidal charter. Yes, it is. I read it in Arabic. You're lying. You're lying. I'm sorry. It's not true.

Nobody can hear either of you. The point is, in my estimation, after October the 7th, Pazz, give a chance. Pazz, give me a shot. Openly boasts, no, no, no, no. It's not. Let me tell you why. Yes. That's it. Hold on. With terrorists calling their parents and saying, I killed 10 Jews.

I just said the Luka Party in 1999 had the charter, and in it they said they want the whole of Israel, including, as he believes, the West Bank and Gaza and everything. If we are going to... They didn't say they would kill Arabs' government. Hous are equal citizens. Hold on. Arrows will be equal.

Let me finish. Let me finish. They're not equal because there's apartheid laws. No, there's no apartheid law. The apartheid law. So let me explain that. No, no. Let me get to the point. You can go to Portugal and Spain

and show that if you have ancestry, they give you citizenship. Israel. No, every country... No, every country... Arabs or not? Listen, this is... The country... Arabs or not? Mohammed. Mahama, let me speak.

We live in a Christian country who the sovereign head of state is a Christian. I'm a Jew. I never felt alienated from the fact that this is a Christian country. Arabs live as equal citizens in the Jewish thing. You're almost... Wait a minute. I'm going to get... But you know, you know, the astonishing thing is... Can I see ask each other questions now? Muhammad had two Jewish wives, but you won't shake the hand of a Jew.

And you know why? Not you. That's Islamism. Islamism is deeply able to submit it and it's sad. We're going to the final part. I'm going to end the show by you both having a minute, uninterrupted, to summarize, right? Then go first. It's not going to be.

How you think we move on from here? Because clearly anyone watching this is going to see two completely intractable sides, right? This is what I see on Twitter all day long. Right. I see people on the Israeli side and on the pro-Palestinian side, and they scream at each other all day. long, right? They say some things that are right, some things that are wrong, whatever.

You'll get you involved in it? Well, you both said to me before we sat down, I don't want to speak out of the term, you both said to me independently. You both said to me, before us getting up in him, finally, okay. You both said to me, before we started, you said that the American Jewish community were very pleased

with what I done on this show. And you said that the Muslim world, please what I'm done on the show, and I took that as a perfect extrapolation of what we've been trying to achieve, which is giving both sides a voice and a platform. So let me do my minute. What has not worked, what has not worked

is bringing you together like this because actually it's been an ear thumping screaming match. So you're now going to get a minute each to summarize, right? In the summary, I want to see if we can at least pretend to be constructive here, right?

Because the world needs this somehow to end. So Rabbi Shmah, you go first. First of all, Muhammad, thank you very much for wearing these Israeli colors. Thank you for your support of the Jewish state. We greatly appreciate it. I should have done the same.

Secondly, I'm sorry you wouldn't shake my hand. I will shake your hand any time because I do believe what Pierce said, we have to have peace and harmony going forward. It's a shame that you said no. Third, peace will come. My Arab brothers and sisters, who are the green on this map,

except that tiny little thing that I'm covering with my finger, that tiny little thing called Israel. And when they understand that Israel is not the Jewish homeland, Israel is actually the great Arab hope. If our Arab brothers and sisters get the economic prosperity of it, Israel, the rights for women, the rights for freedom of assembly, to criticize their governments

without fear the way the people in Gaza would be murdered by Hamas, let alone in Palestinian authority, they'd be thrown in jails. Israel's the great hope. Let me just say this. Islam is a great world religion. It created the world's first universities. It introduced agricultural reforms in Europe under Sultan Akbar in India, 400 years before Europe. You had al-Razi who introduced medical reforms 600 years before the... And if we return to that kind of advance, not the Islam that is being advocated by Muhammad's job, which is antiquated

and dark ages, then we will have peace. So God bless my Muslim brothers, sisters, and I will shake your hand anytime. Muhammad, a minute for you. As I said before and I'll say it again, justice is a prerequisite for peace. If this was the case that it was South Africa and both nations had a long and known history

with each other, Israel and South Africa as a book called The Secret Alliance that you can read for your further information, if this was South Africa, and the blacks were kicked out of their country. They were kicked out of their country by the whites, like the Nakhba, 700,000 Palestinians were kicked out. And then they had the audacity to talk about peace. Nobody would be accepting it. The apartheid laws of South Africa are the same effectively as the apartheid laws of Israel.

You're not allowed to come back to the country unless you are of a specific ethnicity, which meets the requirement for apartheid. 100 to 1 ratio of being killed in Gaza. This seems to be acceptable to Schmoli or unholy Schmoli. It's been to be acceptable to him. It's not acceptable. It's a very good rhyme. It's not acceptable to me.

It's not acceptable to the people. When we see these images, it's absolutely not acceptable. So, peace is, just as a requirement for peace. By the way, by the way, it's not Schmoli. You don't get to go all over again. It doesn't matter what your name is. Look, I found that quite a dispiriting hour. I've got to be honest with you.

Doesn't matter. I thought both of you let yourselves down. I gave you a great opportunity here. We gave you an opportunity as well, well, fine, you can say what you like about me. I don't care. We gave you an audience. You gave us an audience. It's fine, but it's not just about the audience.

It's about a big audience, which we're getting for all these shows, about a big audience seeing people try to come together. Nobody here has seen you even try to come together. Why would you? No, you know, Pierce, what can I do? Pierce, what can I do? You know, I believe, I believe, I believe. Do you agree with apartheid?

I believe in construction. Try harder as Nelson Mandela. Nelson Mandela could have gone down this, Mr. Roy, but he came out of prison. After 27 years, and they called him a terrorist then. No, wait a minute. He could have come out of prison, and he could have taken the path of vengeance. He did. He was violent. What are you talking about?

He took the path of peace. He was violent. He took the path. What he was talking about? When he came out of prison, he took the path of peace. He was violent. And you called him a terrorist. I take constructive criticism, and I will think about what you said.

And Mandela was pro-Bastime. But I will tell you. He was against, but I will tell you, I will tell you, if you bring two people on to a debate and you're saying that we let you down, don't give them lessons. Don't give them lessons. When you bring people, he's very successful man. When you bring to people,

and you allow one, one, one, one, to bring up stuff that is so just embarrassing, like sex, people's sex lies. You both have 30 books on sex. No, I did not. No, I did not. Oh, I'm proud of my books on sex, but this is a debate about some Middle East.

You know, I don't care about your sex lives, either of you. All right. You seem to be really interested in my mind. That's it. from me. Whatever you're up to? We'll talk later. Keep it uncensored. Good night.