Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Race row at the Palace

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensored, Piers reacts to Lady Susan Hussey's resignation following alleged racist remarks she made to charity boss Ngozi Fumani, with Former royal correspondent Michael Cole and anti-racism activist Imarn Ayton. Piers speaks with I'm a Celebrity's Scarlette Douglas about her opinions on Matt Hancock both outside and in the jungle. Jonathan Shalit experiences the perils of live TV as his interview gets interrupted. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight, I'm Piers Morgan Unacensit. It's a scandal that's rocked the royal family. Racial charged comments made to a charity worker who forced a top palisade to resign. Prince William tonight attacks his own godmother for her offensive remarks. Lady Susan Hussey has apologized and quit. Was she a bad apple, or does this signify a deeper malaise at the palace? Last disgrace, Matt Hancock returns from Australian Jungle. I can't confirm. I bumped into Mahith Row. But should the public be buying his new Mr. Knight's?

Nice Guy Act is Jungle co-star. Scarlett Douglas joins me live and is not a fan. Live from London, this is Pearce Morgan Uncensored. Well, good evening from London, it seems only yesterday. I was in Qatar. It was only yesterday. It was actually at 2 a.m. this morning. So there we are. The wonders of modern travel. Welcome to Pierce Morgan Unsensored. It's become very fashionable recent years to smear the British monarchy as racist. It's the age of white privilege. Today's royals must atone for

colonial sins are out of touch beyond reform. There should be abolished and embark on an endless grovelling apology tour for their terrible ancestors. I find most of that complete nonsense. The monarchy is mostly a reason for immense national pride. They representers with distinction and dignity to the world. That's why when the Queen died, the whole world stopped still for 10 days to pay homage to her and what she stood for.

But there is a duty, I think, for everyone at the Royal Household from the top down. to be responsible about the positions they hold, and sometimes they let us down. Last night, Camilla, the Queen, the new Queen, hosted a reception on domestic violence at Buckingham Palace. Well, Lady Susan Hussey, Prince William's godmother, and was one of the Queen's closest AIDS,

Queen Elizabeth's closest AIDS for many, many decades, made racially charged comments to the head of a domestic abuse charity. In Gozi Falani, the woman she spoke to released, a transcript of what she says is the conversation they had. We've had it voiced by producers. Where are you from? Sister Space.

No, where do you come from? We're based in Hackney. No, what part of Africa are you from? I don't know, they didn't leave any records. Well, you must know where you're from. I've spent time in France. Where are you from? Here, UK.

No, but what nationality are you? I'm born here and I'm British. No, but where do you really come from? Where do your people come from? My people? Lady, what is this? Oh, I can see I'm going to have a challenge getting you to say where you're from. When did you first come here? Lady, I am a British national.

My parents came here in the 50s when... Oh, I knew we'd get there in the end. You're Caribbean. No, lady. I'm of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality. Well, let me be very clear. Those comments in today's age, I'm afraid are shocking. They're crass, they're offensive, they're racist. That's why Lady Hussey has now rightly resigned. The palace says the comments are unacceptable.

They've quickly fronted up to this scandal. For that, they deserve credit. This won't go away in a hurry. It will be grist to the mill. For those who want to trash the monarchy and brand it a racist institution, the timing could hardly be worse. Next week, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex

will be ludicrously given a human rights award for fighting racism in the royal family. It was Megan, of course, who infamously smeared the monarchy's racist in her Oprah Winfrey Wynathon. Megan has ever produced any evidence. We had in tandem the conversation of he won't be given security. It's not going to be given a title. And also concerns and conversations about how dark his skin might be when he's born. Well, Meg has ever given any hard evidence to back up any of her racism claims.

But mud sticks, the damage was done. And this scandal will undoubtedly fuel. those who think that there was merit to what she said. Now, what's been going on today, by coincidence, is that Prince William and the Princess of Wales have been in the United States in Boston for a three-day tour, and that will now be completely overshadowed by this new race storm back in London. I think that's why he took the unusual step today, attacking Lady Hussey. Remember, his own godmother directly.

Racism has no place in society, William spokesman said. These comments were unacceptable, and it's right that the individual stepped aside with immediate effect. That individual is his own godmother. And make no mistake, she wasn't a minor background figure at the palace. Lady Hussey was the late Queen's most loyal lady in waiting for, I think, five or six decades. She stood beside the new Queen. Camilla on state occasions, and it will raise uncomfortable questions about how somebody in her position could possibly be so stupid. After Megan's original baseless claims, Prince William said categorically the royal family is not a racist family and I believe him. I also believe the monarchy is a powerful unifying force in our country,

but in this year of transition with all eyes on King Charles with the coronation coming and inevitable questions about the future of the monarchy has to do better than this. Nobody capable of such witness and offensive comments should be in the royal household and it's right Lady Hussey has gone. But there should also now be a fool, I think, investigation to see if anybody else in that household shares similar sentiments and views because if they do, they shouldn't be there. Well, joining me now is former BBC Royal Correspondent Michael Cole and the organiser of Black Lives Matter protests, Imam Aiton. Welcome to both of you. Michael Cole. Someone said to me today, look, she's in her 80s. There is a generational aspect to this where people of her age might ask

questions which sound wrong. And I can understand a little bit that that might be the case. It maybe is a bit generational. It doesn't mean it's not offensive or crass or frankly racist. I mean, for a black woman to be invited to the palace and be subjected to this

bizarre interrogation, persistently demanding to know where she was from when she was born in this country and is a British citizen, is completely outrageous. And the most terrible thing, Pierce, of course, is that the focus is now not on domestic violence and eradication of that,

which is most important. It's on this incident. It's all terrible, and it's very sad. But as you've said, Lazy Susan Hussie is 83. She's a widow. She was married to Marmaduke Cassie, who, of course, ran the BBC.

He was the chairman of the BBC for years. Indeed, indeed. Through the Martin Bashir episode, for example. And we knew him very well. Do you know Lady Susan? I do. What kind of woman is? Well, I've seen her around the world when she was the head girl, as you so rightly say, to Her Majesty the Queen, in all sorts of situations with different people from different backgrounds, different ethnicity, and she was always charming and very kind and very nice.

Now, what we don't have is a recording of that. We have a transcript of somebody's remembrance of that conversation. But we do know an investigation was very quickly commenced, and we do know the result is she has immediately. been let go. Now, exactly. And she apologised immediately. So there's no denial of anything? No, no, there is none. She apologized and she's resigned.

And let's be honest about it. Nobody actually died. Nobody was killed on this occasion. It is offensive. It shouldn't have happened. And remedies have been taken. And I feel sorry for her. I've got, you know, I knew her quite well.

I never saw her act other than properly. She always put people at ease. what she didn't learn is what the Queen always learned when she was a situation like this with people she didn't know she would always say have you come far now that is a very good question because nobody can take offense to me let me go to imman here look Michael's putting a sort of nice gloss on this

but if I'm a black woman and I've gone to the palace particularly for a charity event like that and I've done so much good work as Ingozi Falani has done with this sister space organisation in Hackney you know just to for those who don't know what it is, it's a group that supports African and Caribbean women affected by domestic and sexual abuse. So to be there and to be so belittled

by a very posh, older white lady who's been working at the palace for six decades, to be belittled in that way and to be constantly challenged about where you're really from with all the racist undertones of, well, you can't be one of us, you clearly come from somewhere else.

I find that offensive and I'm a white man. utterly offensive. So I'm very glad that you both agree. So this example is covert racism. So it's basically covert racism in the form of a microinvalidation. So when someone comes along and says, where are you from? No, no, no, where are you really from? What they're inferring is that that person couldn't possibly identify as British. As a black woman, have you had this experience?

No, this is like every day. Every day racism. How does it make you feel when it happens to you? Utterly ignored, I feel offended, I feel dismissed, I feel as if I've been put into this kind of box where I'm not seen nor am I heard, and I'm just expected to just go along with this kind of narrative which is okay to perpetuate racism throughout the day.

So for me personally, it's an experience that most black people, I can confidently say experience on a day-to-day basis. Do you give any slack to her age that is a generational thing that that generation may not have even realised that asking somebody questions like that is racist? I take that into consideration, but it doesn't negate the fact that that seems to stem throughout many generations,

and therefore we cannot take away the fact that covert racism is prevalent within our society, irrespective of your age. Michael, what's extraordinary to me is we've just been through the whole Megan and Harry, Oprah racism thing. There will be people, there are already on Twitter saying she's been vindicated.

This is what she was talking about. The subliminal racism that is laced through the palace. Hard to argue that. Now, I would argue the differences here we had a name. Somebody did something and the victim of this put a tweet out using the initials S-H and said it was a lady. There was only one of those in the palace. So we knew who she was talking about and that person has been made accountable.

My issue with Megan and Harry from the start of their racism claims is there's never been any hard evidence put forward, nor have they named who they believe. was racist. Therefore, everyone is guilty by association. So they are, to me, different things. But there is no doubt this will lend succour to their argument as they stand on this stage at the Robert F. Kennedy Foundation next week for their heroism in tackling racism at the palace.

There's no doubt they will use this to fuel their position. And that's very much why Buckingham Palace moved swiftly and Prince William moved swiftly to distance himself for it. I mean, pretty amazing. I mean, to put it in context, that woman's his godmother. She was one of the queen's closest, if not the closest, confidant of the queen to 60 years. Absolutely.

This is not just anyone at the past. Well, as her god's son can't stand up for her, I'll have to stand up for Lady Susan and say that I'm sure there was no malice intended. Everybody was wearing name pads. Perhaps she saw the name, which was, of course, unusual to her, and perhaps she was genuinely trying to find out a little bit about where she came from. It's quite a normal thing for people to say, have you

come far, have you been this way around? But I understand why the palace, you know, racism is absolutely toxic. The terrible thing about the charge of racism is it's easy to make and it's almost impossible to rethink. Yeah, but in this case, you see, I think it's a clear, open and shut case. I mean, I agree with what you just said. But I also think that black people in this country will all look at this incident. Everyone who is black in this country. We'll look at what's happened here and they'll all be able to cite similar instances

where people have said, well, where are you from? And not really wanting to think they're British like we white people. And that is the damaging thing about this episode is that you've got somebody at the heart of the palace for so long, so close to the Queen, so close to all of them. William's godmother, right?

I mean, that's where I think, if I'm in your position, you know, representing a... community looking at this going, yeah, A, we've all been through this. And B, wow, wow, that's somebody quite a senior at Buckingham Palace doing it. Yes. And I think I have to add the fact that it's a double kind of slap in the face for a lot of black people, because ultimately this event took place where Camilla, Queen Camilla, made a speech that was focused on domestic violence. And she made it quite clear we need to, firstly, she said that it was a heinous crime.

Secondly, she said that we need to support and listen to survivors. And thirdly, we need to believe their stories. Now, racism is just as heinous as domestic violence, right? They manifest themselves in more or less the exact same way, ranging from psychological to physical. So the reality is that we seem to have this notion of supporting and believing and understanding and listening to those of domestic violence abuse. But when it comes to black people, we end up gaslighting,

which is basically another form of racism. So we find more racism in response to racism. Let me throw a slight thing back at your own, on that general principle. I have a problem with believing everyone just when they come forward with any allegation. It may be the cynical journalist in me, but I believe everyone should be listened to, everyone should be taken seriously, but they're not automatically victims until something is proven. Because a lot of people, I'm afraid, in modern society, they invent stories, they have reasons to scam, you know, to media, whatever it may be. for whatever reason, and certainly percentage-wise, probably not a vast percentage,

but there are people that will do it. So I believe you listen, you take seriously, you show respect to a claimant. He's making allegations. But I don't think whether it's racism or violence, whatever it may be, you don't automatically believe people. And I agree with you. Because the moment you do that, you're automatically condemning and convicting the people they're accusing

who have not had a chance to put their case forward, and it may be they're completely innocent. But what you first need to do is listen and ultimately believe, because this is what it comes down to. But do you agree with the sort of principle I'm making. So I do. Totally utterly agree with you. But what it comes down to is a fine line, you see, because when you ultimately, and I said it the last time I was here,

when an individual ignores negates or neglects the thoughts, feelings and experiences of those from the black and brown community, when pertaining to racism, what you're ultimately doing is invalidating their experiences, which is a form of racism. This is a typical thing that we see. And this is the issue that what I typically find, when it comes down to racism,

it is a form of gaslighting that seems to be the typical response. Let's ignore that, but we don't do that with most other things. There's an element of that. I mean, I think this whole, we've got into a place in society now where people can talk about my truth, as if somehow that's different to the truth. And I've got a big problem with that, whoever it is, because to me there's the truth, which is supported by facts,

and if you have your own version of it, it's not actually the truth. I mean, you can feel it, and you can want it to be true, but actually facts should always be sacred, because otherwise I'm not sure where you go. Everyone has their own version of the truth. But Michael, it seems to me, there's another bigger issue, which I'm about to come through

with another guest in a minute. We now have William and Kate embossed it for three days. This is supposed to be the big coming out of the new Prince and Princess in Wales in America. You've got Megan and Harry in California about to go to New York to receive this Robert F. Kennedy Foundation which I think is ludicrous

for their heroism in combating racism at the palace. That's not why they left. They left because they wanted to do their own thing and they're all okay and eat it and make gazillions at Netflix. We all know that. Documentary is coming out very soon and we'll all see it, as is the book. And you've chosen to ignore exactly what she said about her experience, thoughts and feelings. So that's a

more lightening. No, no. I'll just throw that in with your speech. I need to throw that in. I have to throw that. You can say that. Please, I apologize for interjection. No, no. I will refer the Honourable Lady to the answer I gave some moments ago, which was actually she needs to come out. They both do and say who it was.

They expressed a concern about the skin colour of their child. I agree. Because the other allegation they made that Archie was not a prince because of his skin colour was very quickly discounted. They just got that wrong. It doesn't do with his skin colour, everything to do with the order that things go in the palace. So it's only down to that one charge left,

which is that someone in the royal family expressed concern about the skin colour of their child. And she said it happened at a certain time. Harry then said it happened a year and a half earlier. They couldn't even work out what year it had. happened and we've never had a name. Unlike here... Why do you think they haven't given a name?

Why do you think they haven't? Because it's out of respect. The same respect that you have. Maybe. But if you don't... Yes. It's the same difference they have. And that's why they won't necessarily give out that name. I think they've shown unbelievable disrespect to the royal family. Because of stating their own personal experiences within the royal family.

That's disrespectful. They've milked their attacks on the royal family to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. Why do you say that? I'm genuinely curious because you're saying milk. And so all of these things, again, I'm just throwing it back at you. What you're, what it appears to be is, you are ultimately gaslighting Megan and Harry's experiences. Yes, he was.

I'm directly, what I'm asking. What I'm asking. I'm responding. I'm directly calling them out. I'm saying that what they've done, they have taken their royal titles from an institution they professed to dislike. They've taken them to America

and they are fleecing them for massive personal commercial gain. I think it's completely outrageous. Not to build self-awareness. Self-awareness? Yeah, it's self-awareness in terms of racial prejudice and racial prejudice that rise within institutions. You don't think that that has anything to do with them. with their motions to express how they feel.

I'm not letting you go because I'm enjoying this. It's a good debate. Thank you. Wait a moment. Stay both of you. We're going to come back after the break. And we're going to debate this and also talk about what's about to happen in America. Well, welcome back to Pierce, Morgan.

So some sad breaking news has just come in that Christine McVee, one of the founder, members of the great band Fleetwood Mac, has died at the age of 79. She was a wonderful British singer-songwriter, wrote hits like little lies everywhere, Don't Stop, Say You Love Me, Songbird. She left the band after 28 years in 1998, returned in 2014. And there's a statement from Fleetwood Mac.

There are no words to describe our sadness at the passing of Christine V. She was truly one of a kind, special and talented beyond measure. She was the best musician anyone could have in their band and the best friend anyone could have in their life. We were so lucky to have a life with her. Individually and together, we cherish Christine deeply and are thankful for the amazing memories we have. She will be so very missed.

Christine McVee from Fleetwood Mac, one of the great British singer-songwriters. Sad news tonight. Well, we were talking before the break about this big royal race row which has erupted with one of the most senior members of the royal household having to resign after making racially charged comment

to a black charity worker at the palace yesterday. This all coincides with the new Prince and Princess of Wales his trip to America, to be more precise. This is their first trip there for eight years. and, well, it's all going up in scandalous smoke. Right at the moment that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have got their new Netflix series, premiering, we believe, next week.

Well, Michael Lamar, are still with me here. Plus, I'm joined now by author and journalist Maureen for The Daily Mail. He thinks that the Cambridgees may have taken the trip to take on their rivals from Montecito. So, Maureen, welcome to Pierce Morgan & Sensor again. Great to have you. There's a lot going on in your country involving our royals. We've got the rival princes now on the same American soil,

albeit separated by a few thousand miles at the moment. But what do you make of all this? And in particular, you've got Megan and Harry next week getting this award from the Robert F. Kennedy Foundation for the heroic battle against racism at the palace. And right here is a gift, doesn't it, where you have a senior member of the household who has basically been pretty racist

in the way that she spoke. to a black woman at the palace yesterday. Agreed. No question about it, no debate about it. However, if you look at the reception that William and Kate are getting in Boston and the level of dignitaries who are welcoming them with open arms, you have in Boston,

Caroline Kennedy, the flamekeeper, really, of the entire Kennedy legacy, such as it is, hosting William and Kate, and hosting this Earthshot awards, you know, giving the family's imprimatur, as it were. And then you have a few days later, Harry and Megan, who are going to go to New York, and accept a vague humanitarian award

from the RFK Human Rights Foundation, which I defy anyone to tell me one single thing this organization has done for human rights in the past, say, five years. Being amced by none other than Alec Baldwin, the man who shot. and killed a co-worker and has since said many times he is not sorry and he's not the one who did it. You know, you couldn't make this up.

And I think you're going to see in the coming days, you know, the way that the palace and the way that William and Charles handled this so swiftly and so unequivocally, I think this is going to recede. I don't think anybody truly believes that William and Kate are upholding some sort of racist institution. Who is more popular, Maureen, in America now? I mean, have Megan and Harry managed to build a new celebrity lifestyle there, which is now resonating, particularly with younger people, perhaps the more woke members of the community? Or are the, as we call them, the top dogs, really, who are the heirs to the king now and the heir to the throne.

In the pecking order of the royal family, it's very much Charles and Camilla, William and Kate. Are they seen to be on a higher level by Americans or not? I get this question all the time, and I feel as though you in Britain don't believe that we in America see through Harry and Megan. We would hope you do, Mauree. We would hope you do. We do. I can assure you.

The special relationship continues unmolested, trust me. But no, I mean, we've all had this sort of awakening where, you know, as you said with the Oprah interview, nothing added up. You know, there were so many inconsistencies and so many wild and vile accusations being flung. And none of it's really stood up, you know. Nobody wanted them to fail. But I also think in America witnessing the true outpouring, the true sustained outpouring of grief at the Queen's passing, you know, we, I think, have come to have a new understanding of what the monarchy means to modern Britain. And I think that in that sense, Charles and William are held in fairly high regard.

Right. Maureen, thank you very much indeed for giving me that perspective from across the pond. Let's come back to Michael for a moment. There's another story this week, which was that a senior policeman, Neil Bazzie, came forward and said that Megham Markle in particular had been the subject of a lot of very serious threats against her life by far right. Terrorists, that's called them what they are in this country. It was a rising problem.

And that is a concern and may have been one of the reasons, I guess, that they felt they should leave the country. Although I would say, I'm not sure you're only safer in America, which also has a lot of far-right people making a lot of threats. Nor do I think the rest of the royal family are not constantly given threats as well. So it's hard to know quite how you calculate all that.

But certainly, in her case, a lot of it was apparently racially motivated. Absolutely appalling. Apparently these threats were so vile that they couldn't even be articulated by those who were describing them. But if I may just backtrack on what the lady from the Daily Mail was saying, whatever William and Kate do or Megan and Harry do, it will have no comparison whatsoever with the last Princess of Wales. When she arrived for the first time, she'd never been to America before,

November this month, 85, and she came into Washington, D.C. I was there. She was at the very height of her fame. her glamour, she danced at the White House. I have a brilliant story about this. Okay, well, when William was last in New York, I happened to be staying in the same hotel. And every time they were using the...

Must have been the Carlisle. It was the Carlisle. And every time... The Carlisle! Very lovely hotel. And every time they used the elevators, everybody else got roped off, including me and mortals like me,

to my deep... irritation. So you'd have to wait for the Royal Party to come in, get in the lift, go up and whatever. And I found myself trapped behind the rope one day with Tom Selleck, Magnum Piyah. Did he have his... This is one of the all-time great clanging anecdotes. And we got talking. Anyway, long story short, and the relevance of me jumping in there, he was at that ball when she danced with Travolta. And in fact, he said... And Mikhail Baryshnikov, too. And also Clint Eastwood and Tom Selik.

That's something like the president. So Diana was dancing with Clint Eastwood, and Tom said, I had my great moment. I went up, and I tapped him on the shoulder, which is the time on at a convention of Move Over, Son. She's with the Magna. And he said, I then started dancing with her. He said, can you believe it?

I get a tap on the shoulder a minute later, and I turn around into my utter horror. It's John Travolta. At the height of his glorious international fame from Saturday Night Fever. And he said, the next thing, he's whisking around like his character in Channel Night Fever. and it was the most humiliating tap-off he'd ever had. Well, let me just...

So there you. No, no, no, just a little anecdote, because after that wonderful, she was wearing this Victor Edelstein, midnight blue, velvet gown, she was wonderful. The next morning there was a press conference at the National Gallery.

And they said to the hacks like me, they said, the princess is going to be here, but she's not allowed to speak, and she won't speak, and you mustn't ask about her dancing with Travolta. Obviously, this was absurd. It was a press. conference for the press to answer questions so I stood up and I said could I ask

this is through Prince Charles as it could I could I ask you your Royal Highness how the Princess is enjoying her first visit to America and in particular how she enjoyed dancing with John Travolta last night the Prince was livid he is he gave his cufflinks a big seeing to and he said well I'm not her glove puppet yes he said but I think she she she enjoyed it didn't you and she she embarrassly nodded her head. Well, why on earth couldn't they have let her say so? And of course, it was that moment.

Well, you know why? Because Charles was livid. Somebody had slinked his wife around the dance floor, and it was John Travolta better than he could. I don't think I'd like John Travolta dancing with my wife, to be honest with it. Thank you both very much. Really good debate, as always. I appreciate it. Coming up next.

So this morning, I flew back in from Qatar to Heathrow Terminal 4. I was walking out to my car. When who should I spot? Lurking, right next to me, literally, Matt Hancock, who's flown in from Australia from the jungle to face the music. The conversation went something like this. Ah, Mr. Hancock.

Ah, Mr. Morgan. Oh, I said, I've spent the last few weeks giving you an absolute kicking. He said, yes, I know. It was, as my sons would call it, hashtag hawks. Anyway, we're going to debate after the break, whether he should be enjoying now fame and fortune as a celebrity. His former campmate, Scarlett Douglas and top talent agent, Jonathan Shaddle.

They'll join me next after the break. Yeah, we'd seen that grope before, hadn't we? That was the moment that our disgraced former health secretary came third on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here. It reminded us all, of course, of why he had to lead government, breaking his own lockdown rules with that same lady, ending up on the front page of the sun. What, he flew back to Heathrow this morning,

where I literally bumped into him. And we're a little chap. It was not entirely uncivilised, but it was very British. I said I've been giving him a good kicking for the last few weeks about what he'd done, because I have, and he said he knew, and that was fine. But it was interesting. He had a little spring in his step. Like he's now moved on.

He's now a celebrity, not a politician, even though he's actually paid £85,000 a year to represent his constituents in West Suffolk. Actually, he's no longer that. He's a guy who munch his kangaroo testicles and has become famous off the back of it to millions of people who voted for. for him staggeringly. So should he be allowed to do all this? Should he be entitled now to become a famous celebrity, cashing in on all his infamy? Well, I'm joined now by Scarlett Douglas, who was in the jungle with him. And by top, a talent agent, Jonathan Shadley. Let me start with you, Scarlett. You were in there with him and could barely conceal your disgust. As your feelings changed at all, given that the public appears to have had a joint lobotomized morphing into hell by voting for him in. vast numbers? I mean, it was a surprise, I think, for everybody that he came third, but ultimately

with this show, you have to do the best for the camp. You've got to win as many stars as possible. You've got to make sure that you're civil with everybody. You don't have to make sure, but it makes things a lot easier. So actually, him coming into the jungle, we were very dubious at first, but he became part of the team and a part of the family, and that's what was most important for us. Well, what do you think of him? Should he be allowed to be doing any of us at all? Well, listen, everybody's got their own opinion and their own views on it but I'm not the talent booker and obviously that was down to ITV and they believe that he would be right for the show.

There obviously was quite a lot of controversy and when he came in us as the campmates were quite shocked that he was there but ultimately we couldn't do anything about it. It wasn't our decision so we just had to ride that wave and get on with it as best we could. Sounds like you've almost forgiven him. Us as camped or the entire nation? You personally?

I mean, listen, for me, the minute he came in, I remember sleeping on it, and the next day I had to speak to him and say, ultimately, in camp, we are a family and we are a team, and we have to do the best we can in camp. Outside of camp, whether or not we're going to be friends, I really don't know. But here, we work together, and that's what's most important. So have I forgiven him? I'm not sure. If I'm honest, we really didn't get a chance to know the real Matt in the jungle.

We're being filmed 24-7, and everybody is still slightly sensitive to himself. I think he was scammed all of you like he was scamming the public. This is a big rehabilitation exercise. Let's bring in Jonathan, Jonathan, you're a top talent agent. Would you take on Matt Hancock now as a client? Well, it's not really a question at the moment. He's an MP, so I don't take on MPs as clients, so I can't speak for the future, but certainly not now.

And I think, you know, as I understand it, Matt's remaining an MP, so it's not even a conversation. Right, but look, I mean, look, I've got to. a problem with this. Not with him personally. I've never had a problem with him personally. I don't know him that well, but he's always, you know, when I've done interviews, he's always been a bit fractious, but he's been fine with me personally about it. My problem is the principle of a serving MP taking a month out to go and munch kangaroo testicles in a jungle, making 400,000 quid, and he's done another reality show, the Celebrity SAS thing on Channel 4, and he's planning a book.

And I'm thinking, well, hang on, when's he finding time to do his job as an MP? And by the way, when did we reward people who were shamed out of government for breaking their own pandemic lockdown rules? And what about the inquiry, which still hasn't happened yet, into all the damaging mistakes he made as Health Secretary, which many think led to thousands of people dying? Well, first of all, I'm a leading talent agents. I don't run the British political system, but I should try and answer some of that.

You do a lot better than most of them, frankly. Hancock doing the jungle probably and I've been asked but I certainly will stay doing what I hello my dear I'm on television this is my friend but what television I'm with Pierce Morgan lied to the United States me guys just said he said a load to he's delighted to meet you give me I can't hear him you subscribe to Mizzie on YouTube he's on his he's on this he's on sorry guys guys guys guys guys you've got it that you've had your moments of fame Come on. Actually, I was rather enjoying that.

Go back to them. Jonathan being mobbed by what he thought were his fans. It turned that to be mine. They were, Piz. The second I said your name, we got very excited. Just to explain to our viewers, you're actually... The bigger issue is... Well, hang on, just to explain to viewers,

you're both at the same event, the Mabo Award. You've both very kindly come out to speak to us on Piers, Morgan & I says it, and we appreciate it. But it is live TV, and there are lots of people around there, presumably be waiting to see stars coming in. and going from the awards. So that's what's been going on. Yes, we're at the Mobile Awards at Wembley Arena at the moment, and your cameras have got me in one place and scarlet and another

to make it look like we're in different places, but the truth is we're actually 50 feet from each other. Don't kill the magic, Jonathan. No one needs to know how the sausage gets made. But Jonathan, on a serious point. The serious point really is, should an MP be allowed to do all this? Well, I would question, you're absolutely right there, Piers. I would question whether an MP,

to any MP, not just Matt Hancock, should the rules of Parliament allow an MP to go and have a second job that takes away from their constituents for a long time? The answer is probably not, but many MPs have done it. I don't think it's fair to focus on Matt Hancock because he's merely doing what... Do you remember George Galloway doing Celebrity Big Brother when he was pretending he was a cat many years ago

and the Dean Doris and then another MP did splash? So there's a history of MPs. But, you know, they feel the way they can talk to the most people is by doing a show like this. And I have to say, to be fair to Matt Hancock, a lot of people will be interested to hear what he has to say in the months to come because he's done this show. Yes, the intelligence.

Here's my point, Jonathan. I would rather he comes on my show and faces proper forensic examination of all the things that have led to this point in his career because there are some serious questions I'd love to ask him, which he has repeatedly ducked. We keep asking him. He doesn't come on. If he's watching tonight, because I didn't bump into him, he probably is.

Come on the show, Matt Hancock, and maybe you put up a good defence for all the stuff that I've been throwing at you in the last few weeks. But I don't share the nation's joy at his rehabilitation because I think it's come way too early. I want to know the results of this inquiry. I want to know how culpable he is, actually, as the health secretary, for all these people who died.

Not least all the thousands of people who died in care homes because he sent people back from hospitals without testing them. So to me, these are really serious things, which I don't think should be distracted in the way they have been by him gallivanting with Anten-Dec. Listen, Pierce, you know,

the rights are wrongs of MP, gallivanting with Anton-Dec, are the rules of the House of Commons. You know, I think the media love to say Matt Hancock killed thousands of people. The truth is he didn't. It was advisers who gave the government advice. But I would go on to say is you as Piers Morgan

don't think he should have done it. But you can't fake votes. And millions of people voted for Matt Hancock in the jungle. And whether the media like that or not, millions of people said we like Mank Hancock. And millions of people said, we want to hear what Matt Hancock has to say. So I'd say an answer to your question about his future going forward, peers.

You know, if he chooses to now embrace the public media and the public arena, he's got a great platform because, you know, I guess a bit like you, he's marmite. And what I mean by that, some love him, some hate him. But a lot of people love him now. Can you not compare me to Matt Hancock, please? That's a new low, shall it, even by your standards. Let me ask, finally, Scarlett, I think you,

Scarlett, you were knocked out before Matt Hancock. That means you are less popular with the British public than Matt Hancock. I mean, I don't know how you can walk the streets with that hanging over you. Listen, ultimately, people are voting for their favourites, yes, but I am so much less known than Matt Hancock. So people don't really know who I am. I think I went in there as the underdog, and I did my best. That was the most important thing.

So if people aren't going to vote for me, I can't do anything about that. If they're going to vote for Matt over me, then so be it. Trust me, I wish I was there up in the final three, but I wasn't. So I just know I did the best I could do. I came off there, everybody was proud of me. My mum and dad and brothers were proud, and that's all that matters, really. My parents said, if I ever do I'm a celebrity, they'll disown me. It's their red line in the sand.

But thank you both. I'd love to see you in that jungle, Pierce, around that fire, cooking some kangaroo balls. Peter, Peter. Jonathan, final word? Peter, Pearce. What I say is Scarlett, before Scarlett went on the show, she was a big star on Channel 4, and she is a big star of Channel 4 with her TV shows. So the one thing I TV audiences know

is Scarlett's a big star in years to come. Excellent. I think we can all agree with that. And great to have you both. You can go back inside now. Stop freezing outside and braving your fans, Jonathan, who turned out to be my fans. But thank you both very much indeed for joining me. I appreciate it.

All the best. Thank you. Bye. By bye. Mr. Morgan, light to the United... Good Morgan! Hey! Guys!

I got to love it. Live TV. Well, coming next, they call it the beautiful game. And this moment maybe proves it. USA's Anthony Robinson consoling Iran's Ramin Rezian.

After America's victory. We'll talk about that and more with my pack next. Welcome back to Piers Morgan on Sensor. My fantastic pack is here. Associate editor of the Daily Mirror, Kevin Maguire, Talk TV contributor to Esther Cracker,

and political sketched of the Times Quentin. Let's welcome to all of you. Quentin, Royal Race Row. We've been on this rodeo before. You have, yeah. What do you make of this? It seemed to me a sort of significant moment because actually that was a senior person in the Royal Household. Speaking at quite some length it would seem, in a really racially, at best, insensitive, at worst, really offensive manner to a black woman. You may on the breeze hear the sound of cackling, and that's coming from Montecito, I think.

Right, right. where Megan and Harry are, they will be delighted by this, I'm sure, such as their generosity of spirit. I've got an 88-year-old mother. This lady Hussie, 83, something, I find it hard to condemn a woman of 83. And also, I mean, Esther, it might be a bit of a generational view that that kind of questioning would not to people of that age

perhaps be as obviously insensitive and offensive as it would be to people of mine or yours. And my grandmother has made similar. mistakes. I've had like some 93-year-old women asking me, how is your English so good? I was like, I went to school in Watford. And they do make these blunders. It has happened to... Have you had these conversations with people a lot?

Absolutely. But the thing is, there's a level of grace I have with it, because for the older generation, it's not right, and I'm not making excuses for it, but I can understand that for them, that's an appropriate way of addressing it. But when someone asked me where I'm from, for instance, and they're my age group, I'm like, well, I'm from Ghana, right? Because I clearly don't look Welsh to anyone, so I don't take offence

to it. I think it's about how you approach it. But I do think in this particular since she was completely. I mean, I felt, Kevin, it was the fact she went on and on and on and on. And seemed to not want to listen to her when she said, I was born here and I'm British. That was to me the point when, well, at least at that point, shut up. That's right. Well, it's clearly racist.

I think it's rude and it's snobby. Was it malevolently done doing? It's also corroborated by somebody else who heard it. Was it malevolent? Well, we don't know what her intention was. Maybe it is because she's old, but that doesn't mean it wasn't racist. It's a disaster for the royal family. terrible for William and Kate

it's going to marred their American trip it's perfect for Megan and Harry's narrative of we had to leave the racist royal family they're getting this award next week I mean all of it is bad I think for the royals as they try to come through all that stuff you couldn't make the timing worse for them I suppose to William

and perhaps Charles's credit she's been frozen out immediately she's gone Quentin Matt Hancock I mean he won't go away he's like a boomerang you throw and it just keeps hurling back at this. I literally bumped into...

That is the nature of the man, yes. It is. I literally bumped into him. We had a perfectly cordial conversation in which I said I've been booting you around for the last few weeks. He went, oh, I know, yeah, and he's absolutely perfectly phlegmatic. Job done, as far as he was concerned. Gone in, millions of people voted for him.

He came third. I mean, quite extraordinary. He's a tigger. He's rubber. He bounces a lot. Should we admire that quality? Yes, I think we possibly should, actually. But I don't want to... I don't think there's any interest at all in condemning or saying he mustn't do this,

I mean, I think there's a very strong element of Vodaville in politics. Always has been, and particularly strong. It's all theatre. Well, there's an element of that, certainly. And you also have to acknowledge, I know you find this difficult in this case, that the people have spoken. Yes. No, no, no, I do. I just think, whenever you let the British public make a decision, you end up with things like Brexit, you end up with Matt Hancock coming third, and you end up with the boat that was named Boatty Moathe. Yeah, what? Things are the public. Rule one, never let the British public vote on anything.

Ever. They were having... Yes. Absolutely. El presidential more. They were having a laugh in a way, weren't they? That's what they were doing. And you could vote up to five times, so it wasn't a true democracy.

It sticks in my gullet. There's been no inquiry into the pandemic, which is at the moment. Look, if it acquits him of any bad mistakes or wrongdoing, fine. I'll be the first to say it. I think you should at least wait before the rehabilitation tool. I condemn him for going and abandoning. in his constituents and parliament.

I mean, that should have triggered a by election. You could have a Bush took a bill in parliament to outlaw such behavior, but I think it should in the end be down. Esther, what are the voters in Suffolk and his own party? I think it just makes us take politics less seriously. I think him doing this should have automatically triggered a by-election. It's a complete insult to the public.

And I do think there should be an inquiry into how he handled COVID because clearly that's what he was mine. There's a will be one. He should have done this after it came out. Before he goes lunching testimony. A picture of a toad on his head isn't going to save him when he's quite cross-west. You're a man of world. you're a great literary intellect.

Steady on, obviously. Not least when you look in the mirror. Greatest author, British author of all time. This is a new poll. Number one, Jane Austen, two, J.K. Rowling, three, Roddahl, four, Shakespeare, five, all well, six, Tolkien, Arthur Conan Doyle, C.S. Lewis, Charlotte Bronte, Emily Bronte. Where do you sit with that? Who's your favourite?

Who do you think is the greatest? Anthony Trollope, for me. Really? A PG Woodhouse. Neville Schute. Yes. I would put on there. Good, cool. And how about Enia? Blyton. Why not? Why not? It's told a lot of books and got a lot of children to read.

I'm more of a, I'm more into poetry, probably Barrett Browning. Yeah. It's my favourite. Really? Yeah, I would say. Dark horse, aren't you? Captain W. Captain W.E. Johns as well, I should have said. Biggles. Yes, yes. He's a belt. Charles Dickens. Charles Dickens. He's not even in the top 20. Best of times and worse the times in this poll. He's a misery gut. Yeah. Should we really move past Shakespeare as the greatest? Um, I don't know. I think. Isn't Shakespeare really the greatest? No. When you think of what he's brought around, well, he's not, Jane Austen's number one, right? But he's got a good agent. He's the greatest.

Would you want to read Shakespeare? Myriss is shouting he should be. Well, I agree. Can you imagine? You're not involved in the debate, by the way. They're looking to see you. You're up at night with a pint of half of using a bag of Chris. You really want to read Shakespeare, I suggest.

You don't want to read Shakespeare. I mean, I saw Shakespeare last night. And there is a timelessness about summer. Yes. Othello ties in, perhaps, with Lady... Are you watching the World Cup? A little bit. Did you see the scene?

Highlights. America, Iran, a lot of enmity before the match. It's an amazing moment where one of the American players consoled a weeping Iranian player. It does seem to me the World Cup is in a unique place to act as a force for unity. And it should be because it's a game, isn't it? It must remember that this is a game. And the most popular game in the world. And when England won the 20 cricket the other day, they all raced onto the pitch afterwards and started hugging themselves. I would have liked to have seen them shaking hands with the Pakistan.

I think that's a fair point. I love the World Cup. And obviously, you know, this... Ghana are doing well? I know. I can't off. I'm so happy. But obviously, this match with Iran and US was emotionally charged because of what's going on in Iran. So it was really nice to see that camaraderie. Kevin, is it coming home?

Sadly, I don't think it is. And I'm as excited as you are. I think we do have a very good chance. It's not impossible. I still think Brazil. I think then probably France. I think Portugal can't be ruled out. But I think England have a good chance. It's not impossible.

It's not impossible. Without Harry Kane scoring yet. Yeah. And you know he will. but he's been so creative. No, no, look, football is all about hope, isn't it? You always hope. Who do you think is going to win the World Cup? Give me a name. Hereford, FC.

Give me a name. I think England could definitely win it. Brazil. Okay, I'm going Brazil. Actually, Brazil, if Namar's injury recovers. If not, I'm going to say Portugal on the record. They look good. Thank you to my pact.

Brilliant, as always. That's it for me tonight. Whatever you're up to, keep it uncensored. Good night.