Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Robert Buckland, Ben Ferguson and more

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

This episode of Piers Morgan Uncensored discusses the Tory Leadership Contest, the Abortion Ban Fall Out and more. Guests include: Robert Buckland, Ben Ferguson, Tomi Lahren, Franklin Graham, Douglas Murray and many more. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8pm on TalkTV on Sky 526, Virgin Media 627, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and app. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm Pierce Mugan, I'm Sensor. Tonight, Rishi Sunak in pole position to become the next prime minister, the campaign pinch it with the Mordant March. Tonight we'll talk to an actual cabinet minister who's finally grown the balls to come on. He will announce who he is backing. But is it a he or a she? We'll find out later. It's the story that's outraged the world,

a 10-year-old American girl raped by an illegal immigrant and impregnated who was forced to cross state lines to have an illegal abortion. It's divided even pro-life campaigners, and two of them go head to head tonight. And his faith itself in crisis, the Reverend Franklin Graham, one of the most controversial pastors in America, is here in the UK on a tour, and he'll be here live on Pierce Morgan Unsensit to talk about the collapse in religion. Well, good evening on Pierce Morgan, uncensored. First tonight, the race to replace Boris Johnson as Prime Minister. Attorney General Suella Braverman is out. Five candidates remain.

and Talk TV political editor Kate McCann, who definitely is remaining, as far as I'm aware, joins me now live from Western Institute. Kay, good evening. Evening, peers. You're not out, right? You're staying. I'm staying. I live here now. I stay here all the time.

So look, some developments in the last few minutes. Suella Braverman, who's out of the race, big question marks about where she may attach her support, and it's been breaking, I think, some naughty rivals of broken an embargo, which suggests that she's going to put her support behind Liz Trust, which, if that's true, is good news for Liz Truss. Yes, that's right. Suella Braverman is going to throw her support behind Liz Truss.

And exactly, as you say, that is a huge deal for Liz Truss, a really big moment in this campaign. We've been saying for the last couple of days that things can turn on a sixpence, and they can really change when you least expect them to. And the big question after Suella left the contest this afternoon was, where her votes were going to go. So her declaring for Liz Truss, who came in third place behind,

I suppose say, Cammy Badenock then, behind Penny Mordant. Now that is a big moment because although Liz Truss did put on 14 votes in this round of voting, the gap between her and Penny Morden actually grew, so she did have ground to make up. Now it's important to say

that Suella Breverman doesn't take all of her votes necessarily with her automatically. She does have a chunk, but some of those may choose to put their support behind another candidate. But this is an important signal. It says my trust and my faith is in list trust and if you backed me then you should do the same thing The question is over the next couple of days whether people will or not Now Penny Morden has been putting tweets out very kind of you know out there celebratory probably a little prematurely

about the Mordant March and all this kind of stuff Is she gonna regret do you think being quite so euphoric quite so soon? Well I think her campaign will be calculating that the most important thing Penny Morden can do right now is to see the momentum that she's gathered. I mean, she was on the front page of almost every single national newspaper this morning on the morning that Liz Trust launched her campaign. And remember, Liz Trust came into today knowing that she had to make up some ground because she was in third place and only two of these contenders will go through to the final round. Now, there are big questions.

This is still an open field. Kemmy Badnock, for example, still doing fairly well in this race. And Rishu-Soonak, although he's over that man. 100 today in this round of the leadership contest that doesn't mean he's safe either there are some concerns about whether his campaign is too safe maybe even a little bit boring so those votes when they go out of the contest those candidates where those votes split and divides that can make a huge difference in just a couple of hours to the to the likelihood of any of the others going forward but we're gonna see voting rounds peers into next week and potentially we found out on

Wednesday we find out on Wednesday who those two going forward are well we do it Very exciting news now because as you were talking, an actual live cabinet minister arrived in my studio. This is unprecedented. Welcome, Robert Buckland, the World Secretary. You are actually the first member of the cabinet to be on this show live in the studio. Well, I'm delighted to have that privilege. So thank you. So thank you to Kate McCann. Robert, good to see you.

I want to start with you. And I want to move to what may be more significant, and I mean that in a patronising manner, who you may be endorsing. to be leader in a minute. But let's start with you, first of all. So I'm curious about the chain of events which led to you becoming World Secretary. Yeah.

Because I was listening to, I think, LBC, last week when you were emphatic that Boris Johnson had to go. It was all over. In fact, your letter of saying all this said that the officer of prime minister depends on several factors. Integrity, honesty, and straightforwardness. And if those attributes are no longer clear

or operable, I'm afraid the person and office has to go. on that basis, I think the time is for the Prime Minister to step down when you see an alternative as fast as possible. So he does go. And then five hours later, you accept a job from the same bloke, Boris Johnson, to become, well, Secretary.

I'm confused. Why, if he no longer has integrity, honesty, and straightforwardness, would you even contemplate wanting to work for him? Well, peers, it's not a confusion because on the day before he resigned, I spoke to the Chief Whip and said, do not ask me to serve in a government led by Boris Johnson unless he indicates that he's going to resign.

He then did that the next morning. But he hasn't gone? But the point is this. There needs to be a government in the interim. The government will not be able to initiate new policies. He's not going to be able to run away with deciding big new changes. And me, together with people like Greg Clark and other former cabinet ministers, have come back on the specific understanding that this is a caretaker.

But he remains, as far as I'm aware, He's only quit as Tory leader. He's remaining the Prime Minister with all the executive powers of that office. None of those powers have been removed. He's still your boss, right? Yes, and the boss is actually the electorate and the country and the people we serve.

I'm just curious why you, a former Justice Secretary, no less, who was removed by Boris Johnson before, so he's got no truck to be supportive of him. But the fact that you could, within a few hours, of saying you'd lost confidence in his ability to have integrity, honesty and straightforwardness. It does seem a bit perverse

that literally a few hours later, he rings you up, and you say, of course, I'll start now. Well... Do you understand why people might find it a bit? I do, and I have to say the majority of people I've spoken to have said, look, you've done the right thing. It's not about Boris Johnson and his character or confidence. That was settled by his decision,

the right decision to resign. It's now about the future. Why is he still there? Well, because... Hasn't he actually gone? As John Major just said he should... You could have had a caretaker, Prime Minister. You'd have to have sworn somebody else in as Prime Minister.

So that person... Well, what's from we're doing that? A lot of people I speak to you are completely baffled why somebody who lost the support of almost his entire Cabinet, with all these letters and all these statements trashing his integrity, honesty and so on, that he remains the Prime Minister for a day longer than he should have done. But we don't, in our system of government,

have an sort of interim Prime Minister post. Well, Piers, actually, actually, would be unduly confusing. We'd have another person in there. Would that person say they would run in the leadership contest? Would they perhaps undertake not to run? You know, those questions, I think, are not worth asking. We know that Boris Johnson's day is done. It's now a question of getting an orderly transition, making sure the government runs. What if he tells you to do something you don't agree with? Well, I'll resign. Well, really? Yeah. Look, I'm here on the strict understanding that this government now is not in the business of introducing new policies.

They've got loads of things to be going on with. Look, on that in itself, it's weird to me. We have a government which we've elected to carry out the national interest. And what you're telling me is the next two months, it will be paralysed. You've basically gone into a government which can't do anything.

What's the point? I'm not saying that. And what am I paying my taxpayer cash for? I'm not saying that at all. Well, you're basically implying we can't do anything interesting at all as government because we've got this lame duck bloke in charge. And until he's gone,

You can't do anything. But there's plenty of things that have already been announced that we can crack on with. The leveling up agenda, for example, loads of things to be doing in terms of making that a reality. Whether it's that policy or it's the whole range of different announcements and policies that were made when he, what, before his resignation, we've got plenty to be getting it. I think it's ridiculous. He's still in charge.

But let's move on to who may be the next person in charge. You are going to break some news, I'm led to believe, about who you as a member of the cabinet at the moment, Boris Johnson's cabinet, as we've just discussed. Who are you going to be supporting? Well, I chaired the hustings today, the One Nation hustings of MPs, listening to each of the candidates. And I was in the chair to listen to each one of their presentations. I've got to say it's a strong field. It's great to see such a diverse field, so many women and people from minority and ethnic backgrounds. I've decided that in light of the particular challenges that this country's facing, the economic challenges, that the best person to lead this

country is Rishi Sunak. I've decided that on the basis of what I've seen him do and how I've worked with him round that cabinet table for a number of years. And I think it's the time now for experience, for good sense and good judgment to prevail, which is why I think he edges it for me. I think he's impressive, Rishi. I've said that for quite a long time. I think he's also been chastised through probably the most difficult period imaginable and has done a pretty competent job. But unfortunately, it's not down to me. And actually, in the end, it won't be down to you. It'll down to the membership of the party. And there were some pretty worrying numbers

that came out this week about Rishi's lack of popularity with conservative members who ultimately will decide who wins this. But a surging support for Penny Morden. Were you surprised by that? And what can Rishi Suneak do given that you're supporting him

to turn that round? Well, I think Penny obviously has the attraction of being a figure who perhaps is not that well known to many people and is somebody who I know well in response. hugely. And I think... Do you agree with Lord Frost's comments

that she wasn't a master of detail? She wouldn't always deliver tough messages to the EU. She wasn't fully accountable. She wasn't always visible. Sometimes I didn't even know where she was. I mean, that was damning stuff to that. Well, I mean, David will have to speak for himself.

Do you agree with him? I don't. You know, I think this should be a campaign about positive arguments rather than knocking opponents. And I'm here... Cut off it. It's not.

We're now in the stage of this campaign. Honestly, let's be... Let's be frank with each other. We're now at the stage of this race where it's utterly ruthless, and actually what happens is, as much dirt as possible gets flung around to take down all the opponents, right? I mean, that's how it works.

Why does it have to be? I don't know, you, tell me, you're the guys doing it. I'm not at all. I've been a positive... It's the MP's way, isn't it, in a leadership contest. All bets off, out come the knives, in you go. Look, that's not the way it has to be, and it's certainly not the way I would want to conduct myself.

And I'm here to talk positively. about what I see where she's qualities are. I see integrity, I see directness, I see a straightforwardness about the economy, not trying to tell tales about, oh, I'm going to sort everything out and give you big tax cuts now. That's not the conservative way.

The conservative way, as Margaret Thatcher and Geoffrey Howe and Nigel Lawson did, is to fight inflation because it is inflation that destroys savings, destroys incomes, destroys people's livelihoods. The problem you're going to have, it seems to me, with the membership on that, is that the others are all basically saying,

we're going to cut taxes. And people want to hear that right now. So you're dealing with human nature, which is even though Rishi Sunnet may be completely correct in the way he's viewing the current situation, which is you don't want to steam up the inflation even more with tax cuts which you can't afford. And no one's really showing us evidence

of how they can find the money. But he's got to somehow persuade people that prudence, and maybe even paying a bit more tax, is a better winning ticket. It's not easy. Well, look, I think I trust a good sense of Conservative Party members. I've been a member for a very long time, and I know the Conservative Party, and I think the party in the country has very good judgment about these things.

They will remember what we did to achieve that reputation for sound money and balancing the books. That's at the heart of what it is to be a conservative. I don't disagree with you, but here's what they're also going to remember. What's interesting to me about the final five is that three of them have had nothing to do with this government in terms of an executive office, which means they can hold their hands up and go, look, it wasn't me, Gov, I'm a fresh start. And actually, I think the fact that three of the last five

are people from outside is indicative of a public appetite for change to somebody who isn't tainted, perhaps, by the Boris Johnson two and a half years. Well, one, Tom Tuggan Hat, hasn't served in government at all, but all the others are or have served in government and some of the very highest levels. But not a cabinet level,

Boris, right? Well, Liz Trust certainly did. Well, Liz Trust did and Rishi did, but that's my point. The other three have a more credible, we're fresh starters, right? Well, look, I think it's an appealing campaign pledge, but this isn't just about the leadership of the Conservative Party. It's about being Prime Minister of Britain. And, you know, I think having that executive experience, that those hard yards, you know, the work that you have to do in government

that I've seen at close quarters, is absolutely essential. If we're going to tackle the biggest economic challenge we face for a generation. You were Justice Secretary, as I mentioned earlier. Rishi Sunak got a fine by the police for breaking lockdown rules set by the building he worked in. Does that qualify him to be Prime Minister? Does that make him the honest, straightforward future

if he's been caught by the police, breaking the law? Well, I think his behaviour when the police issued that notice was to accept it and to accept that, like everybody else, he's not above the law. It was that birthday party. Well, I think it doesn't affect his fitness to be Prime Minister at all. The Prime Minister could bring the law in your eyes as a former Justice Secretary and that's fine. Well, look, a fine was handed down. He accepted it. He didn't seek to argue or disputed.

I think that shows actually respect for the law. And what I want to see is a Prime Minister who does respect the rule of law, which means equality for all of us before the law. And the work that I did with him on justice issues, and I negotiated a good package. to create the biggest prison building program in this country since the Victorian time. I want to talk about... I'm going to talk about... OK, I want to talk about the justice system. If I may, about the legal system. Is Suella Braveman apparently is coming out for Liz Truss tonight,

having fallen out of the race. And apparently one of the criteria she made for gaining her support was a commitment to leaving the ECHR, the European Convention of Human Rights. And that apparently may have been the deal. she did with Liz Truss. In other words, Liz Truss wants to do that too. Is it right to have a Prime Minister who wants to lead the European Convention of Human Rights? And would you have supported Rishi Sunak if he shared that view? No. I've made it very clear that I think

withdrawing from the Convention is a very extreme measure to take. You know, Russia and Belarus, are the only other EU European countries, not part of that convention. It was British Conservative lawyers who wrote it. You know, the problem peers isn't with our membership, the convention. It's the way in which it's interpreted sometimes in a few cases that cause us some headaches. What you do is instead reform it at a European level and work to improve the system before pressing that sort of nuclear button and leaving the convention. I'm hearing the other candidates make that reason case. I'm surprised that that should be the situation. I very much hope that it isn't the case. Liz has been a very responsible Foreign Secretary working very hard

and being a great ambastardous. Did Rishi sue that give you... I'd be surprised if that was the case. Did Rishi give you an undertaking he would not want to do that? And did you make that a condition of you supporting him? Well, Rishi and I've talked about the issue. I'm satisfied that he only sees that as a last resort.

In other words, he'd want to reform and seek change within it rather than going immediately... That's what they used to say about the European Union. We all know how that ended. So that doesn't sound like an absolute no. What I'd say... Are you leaving the door open for a Rish... She Sunnak premiership to actually take this country out of the ECHR?

I don't believe so. And importantly, of course, at the last election... You use a bit more firm language? Well, at the last election... You're sounding like a lawyer? No, peers, I don't think it's going to happen. It wasn't a manifesto pledge of the last election. You know, these are big ticket issues.

You need to go to the country and ask the people of this country for a view as to whether or not they want a government that has that... Can we trust that as part of the platform? Can we trust him? Absolutely, yes. I think he's straightforward. I've done big, big negotiations with him on public spending. You know the character of somebody

when you are sitting or on the phone to them negotiating big figures. And I felt that I had somebody straightforward, a decent negotiating partner, and we negotiated very, very fiercely right up to the last minute, but it was a very fair and proper. He's got a lot to do there, isn't he, to win this? I think he's got a lot to do. He's not where he'd want to be.

He knows that he's got a lot to do, but I think he's got the ability, the charisma, the intellectual firepower and the experience. Has he got the guts to do what you've done and come on this show? Well, he's hearing you now, I'm sure. I'll take the message back and let's see what happens. If you're watching, Mr. Sunak, you have given me a personal pledge.

You'll come on the show. If Mr Buckland has got the co-hoenix to do it, I think you should. So I look forward to seeing you, Rishi, before too long. Thank you for coming in. I do appreciate you. You're the first cabinet minister in this studio, and it's appreciated it. Thank you, Piers. Thank you very much.

After the break, the fallout from the US Supreme Court's decision on abortion rights, a 10-year-old rape victim in Ohio, who was forced to cross-state, to Indiana to have a legal abortion, discussing that Tom Leran and Ben Ferguson who actually disagree about one of these issues after the time. Welcome back to Pizzmorgon-Sense, the US Supreme Court's decision to strike down Roe v. Wade removing a woman's constitutional right to abortion entrenched familiar divisions in a bitter debate. But one tragic story has stood out as an example of the grim new reality, a 10-year-old rape victim in Ohio forced to cross state lines to Indiana to have a legal abortion. Even President Biden expressed his horror.

10 years old, rape, six weeks pregnant, already traumatized, was forced to travel to another state. Imagine being that little girl. I'm serious, just imagine being that little girl. Ten years old. Well, anger about this case is only intensifies this has been revealed that the alleged rapist is an illegal immigrant, 27-year-old Gershon Fuentes, a Guatemalan national,

who appeared in court yesterday. Well, I'm joined now by Fox contributor and host of Tommy Lair and his fear. on Outkick, who else? Tommy Leran and Conservative radio host Ben Ferguson. Welcome to both of you. Tommy, an absolutely horrible case in every possible way, not least in fact the fact that parts of the media tried to rubbish the story, only to then discover it was in fact completely true. But let's put that to one side and focus on the issues here. A 10-year-old girl impregnated by an illegal immigrant is in itself absolutely.

shocking, but the fact that she was not able to have a legal abortion in her own state and had to cross state lines to do so seems to me completely outrageous. What is your view? You know, I agree with you, and I understand the outrage on the left and even from some in the conservative community, because this is why there needs to be exceptions for instances like this. Now, I believe in that old adage of safe, legal, rare, and restricted on abortions, but what happened to this little girl is, like I said, the perfect example of why we do need to have reasonable exceptions for cases like this. If you start outlying abortion, you're not going to stop abortion. You're just going to stop safe abortion. And if everybody cares about the mothers in these situations, the babies in the

situations, they'll understand that exceptions need to be made. And this case is horrific. It should have never happened. It was done at the hands of an illegal immigrant, so we can discuss that further. But that's why I am somebody who is not pro-abortion, but I'm pro-choice in this instance. I mean, Ben Ferguson, the fact it turned out to be an illegal immigrant is a kind of sideshow issue to me. It's an important one. But it doesn't change the fact that if this 10-year-old girl had been raped by anybody, it's an appalling, shocking story. And if she was then made pregnant by that rapist, I just can't in any good conscience see why anyone would want to force that child. And I have a 10-year-old daughter, that child to have that rapist's baby.

What is your view? Well, I think there's two tragedies here. what happened to her and, two, the way that this story is being exploited by people that don't know what the law actually says. And everyone is getting it wrong. And if you just look at the Attorney General of the state where this happened, he made it very clear. There is an exception, and she did not have to go across state lines. His exact words were, she did not have to leave Ohio to find treatment, despite the claims by the president. The Ohio Attorney General Yos said that Ohio has a limited abortion across the state. That's a fact. However, quote, the law allows for

medical emergencies, which include cases like this 10-year-old girl who was raped. So what makes me angry at this point is the fact that the President of the United States of America didn't even check what the law says. The left who's trying to use this tragedy, this horrific event of a 10-year-old for political gain, doesn't know what the law says. And we're putting out misinformation that if you are in Ohio, that you must cross state lines, which you do not. Well, I guess it comes down to, okay, it comes down to a definition. All right, it obviously comes down to how you would define a medical emergency. Do you think in principle...

This is part of the definition. Well, I think it's an arguable point from what I read today. So let me ask you, though, personally, do you believe that this girl should have been forced to have that baby? I don't think she should be forced. What I think is, is you have to talk to those who medically understand. can she carry this baby safely? Are there issues with the life of the mother? I don't claim to know that.

But what I do know is I think we should value the life of the unborn as much as we value the life of any living person outside the womb. I believe that there should be an exception, which they have in Ohio, which the attorney general who would be the one that would prosecute these crimes, if there was a crime committed, says she had the ability to get the treatment she needed in this state. And everyone's lying.

And that's the head of law enforcement. that would press charges against any doctor if they messed up. He's saying that in the life of the mother, which this could very well be the case, I'm not the doctor in the room, that she could have had a legal abortion, Ohio. So all they're doing is taking advantage of this horrific story and then parading this story out there,

not knowing what the law says, and that is disgusting that people are doing this. But just to clarify, then you do believe in an exception for rape, then, for abortion? I believe for the life of the mother. Well, there's no suggestion. We don't know. And I want to be clear. So if there was no danger to the child's life,

and they said it wasn't a medical emergency and she could have the baby, you would say in that circumstance she should have the baby. I believe that you should protect the 10-year-old as much as you should protect the unborn child. And I do not believe that an innocent... You're sitting on the fence, right?

Because it's a very straightforward thing. No, I'm not saying. I do not believe. I do not believe. I'll tell you what I think. I do not believe any 10-year-old girl, anywhere in the world, should be forced to carry a rapist baby. End.

And I'm surprised if you don't share that view. I don't share that view because then the question becomes, do we constantly then move the stick? Where is it 14 or 18 or 20? And when does the child, the unborn child, actually have the right to live? She's 10 years old. And I'll ask you that, then let me ask this question.

At what age, with rape or incest, do you believe, peers, that then the baby's life should in fact matter? Tell me what that age is. Well, if I ask, let me flip that question around. Let me ask you, would you want this guy who did this to be executed? I am a firm believer that those that take away the life of somebody should be killed and should have life in prison. if rape like this of a child. I believe they should have no chance of parole. I believe you should stay in prison for the rest of his life.

You wouldn't execute him? I would not execute him, but oddly enough, our law says that if he would have killed somebody, he could have been charged with double murder if the unborn child would have been killed, which I think is totally insane that if you kill a child, then you get charged of murder,

but if you go and abort a child, we should celebrate you. Let me bring Tommy back. You know, I know this is a really, abortion generally, it's an incredibly controversial issue in America, far more polarising than it is, for example, here in the UK, where the law is settled, and we just don't have this kind of intensity on both sides of debate. And I'm respectful of both sides of this debate. But I've got to say, when I hear Ben say that, you know, he thinks a 10-year-old girl who's been raped and made pregnant should have that baby unless there's some medical emergency,

I cannot subscribe to that kind of mindset about this. issue. Yeah, and Ben is allowed to his personal and his religious beliefs, and I certainly respect that. I'm somebody who is personally pro-life? But I would also ask Ben, does he think that a government mandate preventing somebody who is rape, someone who's a victim of incest? Does he believe that a government mandate is going to stop that person from getting an abortion? And the answer is no. They're going to have to travel to another state or they're going to do it in unsafe ways. And that puts not only the woman in danger, but it puts the unborn child in danger. It's a bad situation. To look at this through the lens of religion is the wrong way to look at it. You can have

a personal conviction and I believe in that. So I want to make that clear. But we have to look at government as if it solves a problem. And looking at a 10 year old girl or a 15 year old girl or a 25 year old woman who is raped, who is a victim of incest and looking at them in the same way as a murderer is not the same thing. These people are often in these situations, not because they want to be, not because they look at abortion as birth control, but because they are in a situation that is horrific. And it should be up to religious members of the community. to instead wrap their arms around these individuals, instead of calling them baby killers

and comparing them to somebody like this illegal immigrant who was a rapist or somebody who does, in fact, murder someone senselessly and in cold blood. I haven't done that. It's not the same instance. Let me say this, Lord, tell me. First of all, I said earlier, I think it's disgusting how people are now using this story

to push a political agenda. So I think you should know where I stand on this. I have nothing about compassion for her, but I also have seen the other side of this. I have a dear friend of mine that was born, who was given up for adoption, who was a product, as he described it, of rape. And his mother decided to have that child. His life matters. And I believe that saying that his life doesn't matter is wrong.

Now, I personally do not want to separate my convictions from my public comments. I have a firm belief that every child's life matters. And an innocent life should not be ever taken. Ben, you've both had a good chance to put your side. I think it's a really interesting debate, and I appreciate you both joining me. Thank you very much. We actually have somebody perfect ready to comment on this. We have Franklin Graham waiting in the wings to come on and talk about it.

So thank you to Tommy and Ben. In God we trust, well, not anymore, apparently, not in the same numbers we used to. Faith in religion is in consistent decline in many parts of the world. So how to keep the faith. Controversial evangelist Franklin Graham will be here, and I suspect it will be very uncensored. That's next. Well, welcome back. I was raised a Catholic.

I believe in God. say the odd Hail Mary. But I'm bucking a trend. According to a new poll, 81% of Americans believe in God, but that's the lowest it's ever been in the US. In Australia, it's now less than half, 48% in the UK, less than a third, so they believe in any God at all. Well, in the moment I was speaking to Franklin Graham, one of America's most controversial evangelist. He's a son of famous preacher, Billy Graham, who is one of the most important Christian leaders of the 20th century. Billy was a pastor to presidents and met them all from Truman to Trump. Franklin's continuing his father's spreading the word right the way to the White House,

but he's also been heavily criticized for controversial views on subjects like homosexuality and Franklin Graham joins me now. Good to see you, Franklin. Good to see you, you're here on a UK tour. You're playing at the... we're playing, I think it's like a rock star, you're playing the Excel in London on Saturday. So obviously a lot of support for you when you do these big events. Before we get into what I'm talking to you about,

your reaction just quickly to this story of the 10-year-old girl who had to cross state lines to have a legal abortion. It's sad, peers. My heart goes out to the family and to this young girl that have to make this decision. It's not a question of whether she has to go across state lines or down the street, like going to a barbershop. The question is this decision of having an abortion. It's a very difficult decision. And I understand the family and I understand they're wanting to have an abortion.

I understand that. And if it was my daughter, this would be a very tough decision. So I just prayed that God would you... If it was your daughter, would you let her have an abortion? If an illegal immigrant had raped her and then pregnant her? It appears, I can't answer that. Why not? Well, because I don't know.

It's just you have to be faced with that. Really? Because I know immediately. I have a 10-year-old daughter. I know immediately. The answer is absolutely I would. I would do whatever I could for my daughter. It's a very tough decision, Pierce. Is it that tough?

Of course it is. Ten-year-old girl raped by an illegal immigrant and you make her carry the baby? But it's, no, it's the decision between the parents and this girl and this family. You don't know what you would do? What I'm saying is the decision of the parents in those kinds of situations. You're saying you don't know what you'd do? Well, I have, I mean, I would be torn, be honest with you. What do you think you'd do?

I don't know until I was faced with that, but I would be torn. I'm putting you in a hypothetical. We know this has just happened. This has happened to this young girl, and it's sad that it has happened, and my prayers are with her and her family at this time. Talking of prayer, what is going on with religion around the world? Why is it going slowly out of fashion? Well, it's not a question of being fashion, peers,

and it's not a question of whether you believe in God or not. The question is, do you have a relationship with God's son, Jesus Christ? And Jesus Christ came to this earth to die for our sins, and he took our sins to the cross, and he shed his blood on a cross for our sins. And it's up to us to turn from our sins and accept Jesus Christ by faith. and if we're willing to do that, God will forgive us and he will extend to us an opportunity to do with us in heaven.

One of the issues I think is this. You're a very influential man in the Christian world, but you know that you've got into a lot of hot water over comments you've made. For example, about homosexuality, right? Which you believe is a sin, right? Well, it's what God says. What do you believe?

Well, that's what the Bible teaches. Well, the Bible says all sorts of things, which we don't do now. No, I believe the Bible from cover to cover peers. I don't understand it all, but I believe it. The Bible has stuff in it, which would be absurd. No, I'm sorry. I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. So we should still be stoning people in the street? I'm saying I believe the Bible cover to cover. And in the Old Testament...

So I just said you're in there. They talk, you know, about stoning people to death in the street. Would you do that? In the Old Testament, they did. Would you allow adulterers to be stoned in the street to death? Jesus, straighten that up. And when they brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and they brought her before Jesus to stone them, And he wrote in the sand. We don't know what he wrote,

but I think he wrote the sins of all those that were wanting to stone. I think he wrote those on the ground. And they slowly disappeared. And finally they were all gone. And Jesus asked, where are your accusers? And he said, Lord, I have none. Then he told her, go and sin no more.

And that's the way Jesus dealt with it. Your tour is called God loves you. Yes. Why do you think it's Christian to stigmatize gay people? Well, I don't stigmatize them. But you say that they're sinners. We're all sinners. You and me. But you know that those comments have gone down very badly.

You've had tall dates before have had to be cancelled because of protests and so on. I believe in free speech. You're perfectly entitled to your views. And I understand they're driven by religious conviction. But are your views about homosexuals are they changing at all? No. I mean, the fact is God loves the homosexual people. He loves all of us.

But if we come to God, we have to repent. Do you love homosexual people? Sure. And I love them enough to want to warn them and tell them. Why are they more sinful than you? They're not more sinful. Well, about the sexuality. What I'm saying, they're not more sinful than me or you.

The point is all of us are born into sin, peers. You were born into sin. Your mother, when she brought you in this world, she brought you in a sinful world. And Christ came to take our sins, and he died on that cross for our sins. And for us to be forgiven, we have to come to God and turn from our sin. A man like me having sex with my wife and we're both straight people, That is not sinful, right? No, God designed marriage between a man.

But if I was gay in having sex with a man, you would think that's sinful. It's not that I would think that. It's what God calls it. I don't understand, but that's what you think. No, it's what God teaches. Do you believe it? It's what the Bible teaches.

This is why I think religion is going a bit out of fashion with younger people, is that they see someone like you hugely influential, and they think, well, hang on a second, who's he actually to say that gay people are sinners and straight people. are not. No, it's not straight people aren't sinners. Straight people are sinners. About their sexuality and who they choose to have sex with.

They're still sinners. I'm not sinning if I'm having sex with my wife, right? No, but you're sinning every... But if a gay man's having sex with his gay husband, which you don't believe in either, right? But you know that you've got into big trouble over this. No, peers. I don't believe I'm in trouble over it.

Well, you have been. You've had tall dates counsel. I'm giving the opportunity to try and examine. explain why a God loves you tall can't extend to loving gay people's right to love each other and to have sex with each other if they so choose. Because God made us male and female. And he designed sex to be between a man and a woman and not between two women or not two men. That's the way God made us and created us. And it's just the way it is. What if they're gay and they feel that they want to have sex with people like them? Well, I'm just saying the Bible calls it sin

And I care enough about... You can't keep hiding by the Bible It's you as well call it sin, right? My point is, I know lots of gay people who are far less sinful in my estimation But lots of straight people I know. Sure. And I don't understand why I should be free and you should be free

To have sex with who we like, but gay people can't. No, you don't have sex with whoever you like. It's between a marriage relationship between a man and a woman, and that's the way God designed it. Do you understand why gay people and people who have no issue with gay people feel so strongly about the comments you've said. Well, first of all, I don't hate gay people and I don't preach against gay people,

and I don't go demonstrate against gay people. You'll never see where I've said anything bad about the gay people. Well, you just have. You just don't realize it. No, I believe. You just said it's fine for straight people to have sex with each other, not gay people. But can I not have the views that I believe God wants us to follow? You're entitled to your view, no, frankly. You are entitled to your view.

And I'm excited to say that I think one of the reasons religion is becoming less popular is because people look at senior Christian figures like you and think, well, that doesn't sound very Christian to me. That sounds to me like somebody who is homophobic. But the churches in this country, in the UK, that are growing and that are expanding are churches that teach the Bible. Those are the churches that are growing. The churches that have turned their back on the scripture that have compromised the truth

of the scripture, those churches are dying. I think, Franklin, you should just think about this a bit more. Times are changing. People are changing. God doesn't change. Gay people no longer have to hide. God doesn't change. He's the same.

Yesterday and today and forever. Actually, we've moved on so much from a large sways of the Bible. We have. You know it and I have it. But good to see you. Good to see you, peers. Thank you, Franklin. Well, some sad news now, some breaking news.

Ivana Trump, Donald Trump's first wife, has died. The family have just reported to the media. New Ivana, well, she was a family. fantastically entertaining character, always good fun to be around, interviewed her several times, and very sad news for the Trump family. She had, of course, I think three children with Donald, and there are statements coming out, which will be, I've got a statement, in fact, here from Donald Trump himself. He said, I'm very sad to inform all of those that loved her, which there are many,

that Ivana has passed away at her home in New York City. She was a wonderful beauty and amazing, wonderful, beautiful and amazing woman who had a great, and inspirational life. Her pride and joy were her three children, Donald Jr., Ivanka, and Eric. She was so proud of them, as we all were so proud of her. Rest in peace, Ivana. Sad news. Ivana Trump has died at the age of 73. Well, on the sense of next, tonight's Pierceback, Ava Santina, Isabel Oshott and Douglas Murray. If that doesn't keep you watching, nothing will. Probably the greatest pack ever has sent. Well, welcome back tonight's Pierce back and with me, journalist Ava Santina, Talk TV's

International editor, Isabel Okshot, and the author, Douglas Murray. Welcome to all of you. Douglas, let me start with you, if I may. Your thoughts on Franklin Graham and what he was saying there. Well, I thought it was interesting, Pierce. I'm glad you asked him about that. I'm like you on this. I'm all for people's free speech. You know, I happen to be gay myself.

But I'm very, very comfortable with Franklin Graham being able to say whatever he wants to whoever he wants. Personally, I don't find any of it of threat. I don't find it offensive. I think that there is, frankly, a large amount of the... so-called gay community, which isn't actually a community, of course, just a lots of different people who happen to have one thing in common. There are a lot of people in the so-called gay community who are very, very intolerant in this era, who asked for tolerance when there was much intolerance against us, and now that that intolerance has largely gone away and not being very tolerant in return.

So, in a way, I'm a bit of an anomaly on this, but, you know, I always like to practice the old boot on the other foot thing. You know, if people were allowed to do one thing one way around, then we should accept it the other way. And I'm very accepting. I completely... Some like Franklin Graham can preach whatever he likes. It doesn't hurt or harm me. I completely concur. Isabel, the leadership race is hotting up.

Is your enthusiasm for any of it hotting up? Do you actually want any of these people to be your Prime Minister? I don't. This is what's so disappointing. I think the remarkable thing about this is how underwhelming they all are, actually. I mean, Rishi Sunnah, I was a big fan before the whole non-dom revelation about his wife. I thought that was the most extraordinarily naive thing to have done, to have allowed happen. I think he's completely tainted, I'm afraid, by his long service with Boris Johnson and presiding over historic taxes.

And I think he's going to have a real problem convincing the Tory Party membership. He's suddenly gone from being written off about a month ago because of the non-doll issue. To Red Hot favourite. To now we're not quite sure. To now, I just don't think he's going to convince the members. Ava, who, I mean, you know, you're obviously from the other side on all this, but who of them has most impressed you as a politician? Penny, definitely.

She's come out of total obscurity. She was very impressive yesterday, I thought. Yes, she was. And she's great. She's balshy. She's really, you know, engaging. She's interesting. And she doesn't have that awful continuity candidate reek about her that the other two do,

which Liz Truss and Rishi will both be. there in the final. I mean, the thing about Penny is she's a really good communicator, and that is Liz Truss's absolute Achilles heel. Yes, I agree. She's really wooden. I listen, I don't know whether you did, I listened to her launch, and it was just so flat, and I felt myself zoning out. You know, I was actually trying to pick up something from this, and it was just a long sort of manifesto. I don't think people vote on the basis of a detailed manifest, they vote on a feeling. But they actually vote for... I mean, I've always personally voted for people over parties.

Yes. If I get enthused by a politician, I like the cut of edge in. She's just not exciting. Let's just move quickly to something quite interesting in the babies today, which I think I hit a real nerve of a lot of people. Bob Dylan has decided to ban all camera phones from his concerts because he's fed up and looking out, singing, blowing in the wind and seeing 50,000 phones go up rather than people enjoying the music.

David, what do you think of that? Do you think he's just getting to the age where he's moaning? Maybe. Maybe. Maybe he doesn't want to... I have all those dodgy. Look at my team here. It's absolutely ridiculous. They do this every night. They're sort of fanboys and fan girls. Do you do it? Do you go to concerts and video, everything? No, I don't. But then I also probably wouldn't go to a Bob Dylan concert.

You see, I did do this. I went to the Cricket World Cup final three years ago, today, actually. And at the crucial final moment, the final ball, I pulled out my phone and I took a video because it was this. Have we got it? Have we got it? Not sure we do. I'm sure it's coming. It's not like we're running out of time.

No, we'll have to talk about something else. Now, Douglas Murray, I don't know if you're a cricket fan, but are you the kind of guy that does that kind of thing? Do you think Bob Dylan's onto something here? Should we ban phones? Because I look at that at least once a week. That clip. Look, I think this is another reason to love Bob Dylan.

I'm so on his side on this. First of all, it's very distracting for the performance. But secondly, look, you're going to be. going to take most of the time, I'm not criticizing your own fair, handiwork and camera work of their peers, but most of the time, if you're standing in a concert and you've got your arm up and your mobile phone out, you're going to be taking the worst video of the night. Most... But it's raw and unvarnished. Do you know what, Douglas, it's my video.

I know, but it's not as if Bob Dylan, if you want to see videos of him, there are quite a few of them available, really well shot. So if you're a concert of Bob Dylan... There are lots of World Cup final videos, but nothing is. as raw as exciting as mine. Okay, yours is the best video in the world, Piz. Now, before we finish, I want to just show this to the ladies here. These are TikToks about siren eyes.

Can you show me this? Siren eyes? You think the siren eyes are as alluring as they claim it does. Can you do it? You see, when I read about it, it seemed to be more about the mouth. Give me some siren eyes. I'm not giving you any siren eyes. Who knows what would happen?

So hypersexualised as that. Can you do it? Or not vulgar. No, not on cue. I wouldn't. I wouldn't disgrace you with it. Siren eyes don't work. I'm probably right out of time, but a lot on tonight.

Good to see the pack tonight. I appreciate that. That's it for me. Whatever you're up to, make sure you keep it uncensored. Good night. Hi, fans.