Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Rosie Duffield Exclusive

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensored, Piers has a riveting and shocking exclusive interview with ⁦Rosie Duffield - the female MP who dared to stand up for women and got abused & shamed for it. Rosie responds to Labour spin doctor Matthew Doyle's briefing against her, revealing she's not been in Keir Starmer's office recently, and her concern on leader Keir Starmer's reluctance to define a woman. Piers Morgan speaks on porky-telling politician George Santos. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight, I'm here's Morgan on censor. She's the Labour MP who's been vilified, abused and smeared as a transphobe for defending women's rights. Tonight, she talks to me exclusively. In her first interview, she's being heckled by her own Labour Party colleagues in Parliament. Labor's odds-on to be the next party of government, but Rosie Duffield says there's a major problem with women. Could that block Secere Starmer's path to power or debate? Not a story that's too good to be true, but actually is true. And that's the only thing about it that is true because it's about the biggest liar in political history. Live from London, this is Piers Morgan Uncensored.

Well, good evening, from London. Welcome to Piers Morgan Uncensored. Standing up for women's rights used to mean fighting for equal pay, equal opportunities and equal respect. Now it means fighting for the very word woman itself to even exist. Birthing people, menstruators, bodies with vaginas, individuals with a cervix, chest feeders,

womoks, wimiks, wimoks, wimks, wimks. How do you even say those words? These are all terms used to describe an adult human female by everyone from the British Health Service to the former First Lady of the United States, Michelle Obama. Let's be clear, the Cambridge Dictionary now says an adult human female is actually an adult who lives and identifies as female

that they may have been said to be a different sex at birth. Do you hear that? This week, the government of Jersey launched a public health campaign aimed at women, which said, if you are a transgender man, a gender non-conforming person, or a signed female at birth and with a cervix, you can book your free cervical screening today. What about women in Jersey? What happens to them?

Why have they been airbrushed from all these communications? The Brit Awards surrendered to a ridiculous crusade, by going gender neutral. I warned up the time, this would backfire and it would just lead to probably all-male shortlist. Well, guess what happened? The best artist category of the year is all-male nominees.

I could have told them that, because I did tell them that. There's an insidious campaign to protect the very tiny percentage of the population who identify as transgender by erasing half of the world's population who identify as women. And make no mistake, it's a dirty campaign. We're not sure of a sown in London.

That's an elected representative of the Scottish Parliament using rather unparliamentary language to describe women who've argued against the SMP's gender bill. At the same rally last week, protesters waved signs saying decapitate turfs. Now, turf stands for trans-exclusionary radical feminists. It's really just a smear word used against any woman who dares to stand up for women's rights.

So these be-kind equality angels are literally calling for women to be beheaded. With the term for that, too, it's hate speech. And anyone who dares to call it out is branded transphobic. But it's not transphobic to say that trans women, born to male bodies, cannot fairly compete against female athletes. It's not transphobic to say that women have a right to feel uncomfortable about transitioning men

being in their changing rooms and safe spaces. It's not transphobic to think it's utterly terrifying that a muscle-bound, shaven-headed male rapist can change gender after committing the most heinous crimes against women and then be sent to a female prison. Adam Graham savagely raped two women he met online. When he first appeared in court in 2019, he did so as a man.

By the start of his trial, he was now apparently a woman. Now she is heading to. to a woman's prison full of the kind of women that he raped. It's almost beyond parody of this, but it's happening. And it's happening in Scotland where the SMP wants anyone, age 16, to be able to self-identify as the opposite sex with no medical diagnosis whatsoever. Well, very few people have had the courage to speak out about this,

but one of them, one of the more notable people, is Labour MP Rosie Duffield, who did speak out about it. The bill clearly conflicts with the Equality Act and would have repercussions for women for women across the UK. And given the previous UQ, does he not understand how vitally important this is at the moment? Quite extraordinary scenes, Rosie Duffield there, being heckled by her own Labour colleagues for a speech in which she defends women's rights to safety. She's faced these ridiculous allegations of transphobia,

for years, and ironically, it all began when she liked this tweet by me. And I was responding to a ludicrous tweet from my former employers at CNN, where they just wouldn't say the word woman. And I said, surely you're talking about women, not individuals with cervixis, about a cervical cancer screening story. And Rosie Duffield liked it. And for that, all hell broke loose. and she got abused so badly and had so many death threats,

she had to temporarily come off Twitter. She's not a transphobe. I'm not a transphobe. As I've said many times, I believe trans people deserve rights and respect like everybody else. But I believe passionately in women's rights and protecting those two. And so does Rosie Duffield.

I'm glad to say she now joins me. Well, welcome. I mean, that's quite an intro when you read it all out, isn't it? Yeah. And you've been at the centre of this storm. Can I start by apologising for the tweet which you liked, which entered you into this bear pit of mayhem? Let's go back to that.

Because I read this tweet from CNN in which they seem to be going out of their way to cover a story about a cervical cancer screening report in which they were trying not to use the word woman, an individual with a service. And I thought this is preposterous. You're talking about women, aren't you? You liked it. And then you followed up and said, actually, I just think women have cervixes.

Yeah, absolutely. And then what happened? And then I got all kinds of, like you said, all hell broke loose. I mean, I thought it was a good way, a sort of safe way, to kind of put my opinions out there and the opinions of all of the women that I spoke to all of the time who were asking someone to say something about this. You did a tweet, and I thought, okay, I'll like that. It's just a tentative kind of toe in the water. and it was kind of amusing what you were saying.

It was a stupid issue. It was funny. It was so ridiculous, like you said. And then the people that started sort of calling from my beheading, you know, metaphorically. You were getting explicit death rates. There is that as well. But, you know, people calling for me to lose the whip in the party are all the sort of people that were running or leading Labour societies.

And that's where we've got the problem in the party, I think. So you get all this abuse. So bad you end up. temporarily coming off Twitter because it was so vile. But what is even more shocking to me is that your own Labour Party colleagues from the top down basically threw you to the wolves. They didn't want to go there. This is too toxic.

They couldn't even say what a woman is. In fact, Sir Giazama, your boss at the Labour Party, he was asked directly whether a woman had a penis by Nick Ferrari. Listen to this. A woman can have a penis. Nick, I'm not, I don't think we can conduct this debate with, you know... Sorry, I've offended you in something. No, no, no, no, I just...

Is it transphobic to say only women have a cervix? Well, it is something that shouldn't be said. It is not right, but Andrew, I don't think that... So, Rosie Duffield should not have said that. Can you explain to people watching why she should not have... Well, Andrew, I don't think that we can just go through various things that people have said. I found it extraordinary. I mean, I like Keir's time. I get on very well with him. With fellow Arsenal fans, it's a good time to be an Arsenal fan.

I've got to say on this, he's really let himself and the party down, because you've got to be able to say what a woman is if you want to lead a political party. Absolutely. It's not difficult. It's an adult female. But more people in this country are women, and women will knock on doors, campaign, donate to parties and vote. And if women don't feel that we're represented, that's a serious state of affairs politically. And I had met with Keir. I think the aide who talked about me said that I was always in and out of his office. I met with him once over there.

Well, Matthew Doyle, along the senior aide said that you were in and out all the time. Yeah, I met him once. I mean, let's actually play the clue. This was leaked by Gido Forks, the media website. Let's listen to what he actually said, Matthew Doer. I mean, we put the words up, because obviously it was quite faint what he was saying. managed to put the words up there so you could see it. It's really quite extraordinary.

This guy's ahead of Labour communications. He's the voice of the party on behalf of Kea Stama. And there he is actively briefing against you, as it turns out lying about the number of times you've seen Kea Starmes. He said you're in and out all the time, and mocking you for not spending enough time in your Canterbury constituency, saying you're spending too much time with J.K. Rowling. I mean, I've never met this man.

I have no idea how he thinks he knows those things. How many times have you. You've been in Kirstama's office since all we started? I was there the week before he gave that interview to Andrew Ma. And I was trying to explain my point of view. I was trying to explain that lots of women's groups were in touch with me, that I had had nearly 400 bunches of flowers and cards and emails. And they never stop.

They haven't stopped. I've not met a woman who would disagree with you. I've not met one. I don't know where they exist to these people. Yeah. But I have not met a woman, and I've traveled far and wide in the last two years. I've not met a single woman who looks me in the eye privately and says, well, it's all ridiculous.

Of course, we know what a woman is. There are a few Labour MPs. Right. I know they exist. Because I see the hell that you have to go through. But just to be clear, on Keir Starmet, how many times have you been in his office since then? Not once. Not once.

No. So this is complete nonsense being skewed to... But this guy doesn't know me, doesn't know anything about me. But it's a very clever line, isn't it? I knew. I've heard that they've been briefing about me before this, But, of course, I had no proof. It was just this kind of feeling that, you know, I knew that they weren't pleased with my stance on things.

But to hear him, I mean, that's so clever. To start sowing the seeds of doubt, oh, maybe she's not in her constituency. And then it gets through to my... And what's the truth about that? Of course, I'm there every single week, like every other MP. You know, I've lived there since 1990. How many times have you seen J.K. Rowling personally in the last two years?

I saw it at Christmas. The famous lunch, the river cabinet. That was another look. That was... Okay. So you've seen a couple of... It was Easter. Yeah, and we talk most days actually. So you're not spending most weekends up in Scotland, plotting.

That would be lovely, but no, I'm at home in Canterbury. I mean, we're going to come to her in a moment. On Kirstama, though, when you saw him, what did you say to him? I just explained the situation. I said, I'm so sorry. The story at the time was that I wasn't going to conference because of all the death threats. I was so embarrassed by that story getting out there. I hadn't said, I hadn't announced I wasn't going to call. I told a couple of friends that I thought it was a good idea not to go. It was his first big speech. I didn't want to be the headline. Ironically, I was the headline for about three weeks about that. And so I said to him, you know, we've got into this situation.

Will you meet with these groups? Will you hear what I've got to say? And he was really sympathetic. He said, oh, I haven't heard of this group, Labour Women's Declaration, 8,000 signatures to say that they want this to be discussed. We want people to talk about it freely. And since then, a couple of conferences have passed, and Labor Women's Declaration are not even allowed to have a stall at Labour Women's.

And then, you know, a few days ago, we see you being openly mocked and jeered by your own side in the Commons for standing up for women's safety. I mean, Ben Bradshaw was one and who was the other? It was not a male NB. Right. Let's just see a little bit of this. The bill clearly conflicts with the Equality Act

and would have repercussions for women for women across the UK. And given the previous UK, does he not understand how, vitally important this is at the moment. Quite extremely. Two male Labour MPs. Yeah. Lloyd Russell Moyle and Ben Bradshaw, a former minister. He was heard shouting absolute rubbish.

Yeah. As you defended the need for spaces segregated by sex. Yeah. How have we got to this place, Rosie, where what seems to me to be just the obvious common sense thing to do is being eradicated at the altar of political correctness? I think it's activists. I think it's the kind of people, if you are based in London and you're leading a party where, you know, your staff and all your

associations and labour societies are the same kind of people, we're a very nepotistic party, I'm finding out, I guess the others are as well, I don't, I can't speak on that, but you're surrounded by the same people, the same activists, the same people are on the NEC or the boards of this, that and the other, you're just hearing the same voices. When you see the leader of the party, Sir Kier's Dama, unable to say whether people with penis, are women. What was your reaction? Speechless, really. I mean, it just seems kind of mad. It's dystopian.

I don't know what to make of it. Half the time it seems funny. Half the time it's really scary. I mean, I've had high-profile women. Dame Joan Collins was one. A great friend of mine who didn't want to say what she thought a woman was anymore because didn't want to get the agro that would come from answer the question. That's where we've got to. Some of the glamorous women of all time like Joan just feel that they've been cowed by the mall.

And they don't want to go into that bear pit that you've gone into. You know how vile it can be. But I have to because I have hundreds of thousands of women contacting me and I'm involved in lots of women's groups and I know how they feel. And I think with a party of working class people and working class women, those are our roots. The kind of people that are likely to be in the kind of prison that you talked about at the start of the show are working class women.

That's our job and I will continue to hear. I mean, that story of the men. man who raped two women. And tonight, his ex-wife, or her ex-wife, has now broken her silence. And apparently says she thinks he's scamming everybody. Is a man just using this as an excuse to get into women's prison? I'm not sure why his rights, as a rapist, are something we're talking about anyway. Right.

You know, that is... Absolutely agree. Let's take a short break, Rosie. After the break, I want to talk about your friend, Jake here Rowling, is who tweeted this. Rosie Duffield, ex-assistent teacher, single mother, survivor of domestic abuse, One Labour a seat they thought was unwinnable. Post Corbyn, she was returned to Parliament with an increased majority. And this is how Labour repays her.

Let's discuss that after break. About my special guest, Rosie Duffield, Labor MP. So Rosie, your friendship with J.K. Rowling, I mean, you're joined, I guess, by this issue in a sense. That she was very supportive of you publicly because she could see the hell you were going through. She's gone through similar stuff for expressing similar views of trying to support women's rights to safety and so on. Tell me about JK and your friendship. She's much funnier than you would imagine. Very funny.

We've got a sort of, you know, everyone has secret WhatsApp groups. We've got a secret DM group on Twitter. We just kind of keep each other going, really, on a daily basis. People like Julie Bindle and me and Joff. Well, there's a funny picture, actually, because I think you and Julie Bindle, you were with her and you wore a T-shirt with you and J.K. running as dinosaurs. After David Lammy, Labour shadow minister,

called Turf's Dinosaurs. That was the gift that really kept on giving because, you know, I've been sent dinosaur jewellery, dinosaur chocolate. What do you... The way the Labour Party responded, it seems to me they're siding with people who are waging an insidious war against women's rights. So what does it say about them, from secure downwards?

I think it is fear. I think all of it is fear. I think the fact that we've got so many very senior men, So the chiefs of staff, the general secretary, Keir himself, you know, all this head of cons, whatever it is. He does. They're all men. They're all men based in London. I don't think that they're listening to people.

I don't think they're hearing people. What's your message to Keir Stama tonight if he's watching this? I think I'd like him to listen to women's groups. I'd like to know that he's met with those people that are really concerned about this. And should he listen to you? I mean, should he not? That would be nice. If you wants to have a definition of a woman,

are you the person he should go to? Could you help him with that? I'm a particular expert in that, but it would be nice to... Well, you know what a woman is because you are one. I thought I did, yeah. It would be nice if we just had a dialogue. You know, he's my colleague and we're there. And one of the pledges he told us when he was standing for leadership

was as someone who'd employed thousands of people, his door was always open. And, you know, it'd be nice if we could just go in. Have you tried to see him again? I've messaged him a few times and when I've had particularly terrible abuse it got really, really bad about a year or so ago and he did phone me and say he was sorry

but I think he feels very limited as to what he can do he won't for example show public support but why? I guess all of the pressure from all of the labour student groups and the labour activists and most of them are But do you think he believes himself? I've got no idea. He's ever given you any indication?

No, I don't know. I don't know what he thinks, really. You're in a place where the Labour Party, look, should be roaring to a pretty comfortable victory in the next election. But this women's issue isn't going away. No. It's kind of ripping large parts of the party apart in many ways. Yeah, and I don't want that.

Of course I don't want that. But in 2019, I remember telling a few people, possibly Kare, I don't know. But in 2019, there were two things on the doorstep for me in Canterbury. Brexit, Jeremy Corbyn and anti-Semitism in the same sentence. And it was very hard to win as an MP in 2019, as Labour MP, as you know. The third thing that came up was women taking me aside and asking to tell me about their experiences. One was a social worker, one was a teacher, one was just a mum. And it was way before your tweet, before I said anything in public.

And I took them aside and I listened to them. So I knew this is not going away. But when I tried to mention it, I was told to colleagues even, I was told it was a niche issue, shouldn't be talking about it, we should be talking about important things and big issues. When you saw, I mean, it seems to me there's a lot of fronts the attack is coming from at the moment. The Brid Awards with the gender neutrality issue, which many people like me warned at the time, would almost certainly lead to the awards actually being skewed more to the men. We'd have the opposite effect to what people thought it would have.

When you saw all the male artist nominees were men this year, what did you think? It's pretty depressing, isn't it? I mean, you know, lots of us were talking. And the women who haven't talked about the gender-critical side of things and the trans side of things are all really angry about that. But, you know, that's the face of all of this. If you change our language, if we don't get to protect our spaces, this is kind of where we'll go.

Well, if we don't protect the word woman, and we don't celebrate womanhood, and we don't celebrate femininity and being female, what's wrong with a best female artist category? If the trans lobby group want an award show, have their own or have their own category. Yeah. I don't mind.

Sam Smith, in one minute, he's a straight guy, next minute he's a gay guy, and next minute he wants us to call him, they, them, because he's non-binary. I don't give a damn what he wants to call himself. I do give a damn when his campaigning means the Bridal Wars decides to go gender neutral and the victims are women artists

who've now been completely evaporated from his event. Absolutely, so gender neutral usually means without women, or women being excluded. So you've seen those signs on the loose that are tweeted, and there's a disabled sign and a woman's sign and a unisex sign. and then there's another door and it's just got a man sign. You think, hang on a sec.

And then you get to sport, which is even more depressing because everybody knows how ridiculously unfair this is. Everybody knows that just reducing testosterone doesn't make any difference post-puberty to a man's body mass, his muscle, his strength, his lung capacity. I interviewed one of the British champion shopwitter last night, Amelia Strickler. And she was really good, actually.

We've got a little clip, I think of it, from the interview last night. I think we got a clip of the interview. But she was great because she basically said, look, we're going to end up, I've got a here now. They'll never have periods. They'll never experience that. You know, it does hinder many, many female training.

Yes. It's a real issue, yes. It's a real issue. Even, you know, Dina this summer said, you know, I've had lady issues and she didn't perform well, when she didn't perform well that day. And, you know, it's understandable.

I mean, I hadn't even really thought about that aspect of it. which is so right is that trans women athletes don't have that issue of a monthly period that they have to deal with as athletes, which can be very debilitating, if not performance reducing, as we just heard. Again, no thought given to this other than we're going to get our way

and we don't care about women's rights here or fairness and equality. In their own stampede for what they see is fairness and equality for their own community, the trans community, they are creating a new unfairness and inequality. Absolutely. My friend Sharon Davis, I've spent a lot of time to talk to about this.

She's fantastic. And she feels, I think, I'm not putting words in her mouth, I've been to events where she's spoken, that what, you know, she missed out on a gold medal, partly because of the doping of some of the Eastern European countries. I think she feels that she's reliving that all over again. We saw it with the New Zealand female weightlifting team, where Laurel Hubbard, who had competed as a man before,

now got an Olympic place at the expense of a woman born to a female body. That, to me, is completely unfair. Laurel Hubbard was unsuccessful as a male competitor and then suddenly as an Olympian as a woman. And we've seen it in cycling. Well, there's a cricketer down in Kent actually, a six-foot-four-inch cricketer, who was a male cricketer, was an average of 17, I think,

becomes a female cricketer and suddenly averages 120. Wow. Now, as a cricket fan, I find that utterly ridiculous. Yeah. I mean, it's just not fair. Like you said, it's not a level playing. But if you say that, you're a transphobe, apparently. No, I mean, we've talked in sport in circles, you know, I know some sports psychologists who are really talking about this issue.

And what about different categories? Because this argument is in its infancy, we haven't got there yet. We haven't found solutions. But the solution isn't pushing women aside. It can't be. Or abusing women or threatening women. I mean, these scenes we saw at the protest about the Scottish gender recognition bill, which to me is a ridiculous bill, which allows 16-year-olds,

you're not allowed to buy a drink legally, now determine their lifetime gender without any need for any money. medical diagnosis, I think it's crazy. But people were protesting about the UK government protesting rightly about what's going on up there. And they were actually having signs saying decapitate turfs. You've been named sort of chief turf along with J.K. Rallin. These people wanted, and their trans activists, wanted you and J.K.

Rannling and people like you to be decapitated. Yeah, yeah. What do you feel about that? It sounds weird, but I'm sort of used to it. I mean, all women MPs get depressed. You shouldn't be used to it. No. It's disgusting.

I shouldn't, really. But it's really disgusting. It's become kind of normal, actually. Yeah. Look, I know it's been horrific for you. I can only apologise again for starting all this because without my tweet which you liked, you might have been blissfully carrying on as a below-the-radar MP.

Although I suspect you would have spoken out at some stage, but I think you're very gutsy for what you do. I think you should keep going. Don't bow to the mob. We need more people like you and J. Keir Rowling and Amelia Strickler and people like this to speak out on behalf of women. Women need to speak out to save women's rights

and men need to do the same. Yeah, thank you. Good to see it. You too. Keep fighting. Thank you, I will. And it's Sakea Stama's watching. My invitation of you to come on. The program remains maybe tomorrow, Sakeet.

Come on answer this, charge. I'll tell you what a woman is and a woman doesn't have a penis. It's really not that hard, Sikir. If you want to run the country, you better get with the program. And it's a program has been around thousands of years. Well, let's we get reaction to Rose's interview

with tonight's pact and debate what it means to the party, that could soon be running our government if they stop trashing women. Welcome back to Piersburg and our sense that the lies keep coming for Pinocchio politician George Santos. The US congressman now claiming he was a victim in attempted assassination. This is the long list of lies spied from his mouth

and yet he remains in Congress. It's a quite extraordinary story. He's now indisputably, in my view, the greatest lie on the history of global politics. Fox News is Kat Tip will join me to discuss this bizarre, bizarre story. a little later. But first to my exclusive interview with Labour MP, Rosie Duffield. Here's what she said about her leader, Sekeir Stama's inability to define what a woman is.

More people in this country are women, and women will knock on doors, campaign, donate to parties and vote. And if women don't feel that we're represented, that's a serious state of affairs politically. And I had met with Keir. I think the aide who talked about me said that I was always in and out of his office. once. When you see the leader of the party, Sekeir Stama, unable to say whether people with penises are women, what was your reaction? I was speechless, really. I mean, it just seems kind of mad. You know, it's dystopian. I don't know what to make of it. Half the time it seems funny. Half the time it's really scary. Well, strong words there, dystopian and scary. Well, when we're packed tonight to discuss always, is talk to TV political editor to Kate McCann, Daily Mirror, Associated to Kevin McGuire.

talk to the contributor, Esther Krakku. Welcome to all of you, my stella panel. Kate, I mean, this is quite a damaging, ongoing problem for Sekeir Stama. And when you have someone like Rosie Dufford, who clearly just calmly talked me through what's happened to her, after she actually liked one of my tweets, mocking the sort of terrible use of language about women these days, if you're Sekees-Tarmer, you can't even define what a woman is.

You have a woman MP being vilified, shamed, and now apparently just thrown to the walls by your party, that's damaging, isn't it? It's really damaging. And what Rosie Duffield was saying to you about how there are a lot of men in the Labour Party, almost all of the jobs at the top, she listed them are men. Not just that, but they're men from London.

And the point she's making is that there are lots of women around the country who don't agree with that point of view and who will vote for the Labour Party. And her point about, you know, working-class women are more likely to end up in some of these. prisons where there are questions about who else is going to be in a prison with them. That's something she feels very strongly that she's there to represent. And I think the fact that this week the optics of what we saw in the House of Commons

from Lloyd Russell Moyle and other MPs and the subsequent, I mean, it wasn't exactly a deafening chorus of people coming to her age. Well, I think there have been, I mean, I've written a column for The Sun tonight about this. There have been four things in one week. Yeah. Which I think constitute Esther, this ongoing war. against women. One, the Brit Awards having this ludicrous decision to go gender neutral and then all the nominations for best artist being male. And own goal of spectacular proportions were

women are the victims. Then you had this shocking story of this transgender rapist who actually was a man when he did the raping. Then when he goes to trial, suddenly identifies as a woman and it's not going to be transferred apparently to a woman's prison. Well, this person, I don't know what we legitimately call this person because I'm not buying it. Well, his ex-wife has come out tonight in the Daily Mail online and she was married to him, has no time from him at all, but says he's just pulling whatever, this is all a sham, she says. It's a sham for attention, easier life in prison.

When I saw photographs of him just as a woman with a blonde wig and pink-like her leggings, I felt a bed laughing. The trouble is it's not actually funny because he will now be this serial rapist put into a woman's prison where he will be around women he could potentially assault. Well, this is, this is... And that's what Rosie Duffield was talking about in Parliament, safe spaces for women, when male Labour MPs hounded her. I mean, this is the real misogyny.

And you notice how men don't have this problem? It's not men being shouted down. It's not men spaces that are being invaded. It's not men being told that their categories need to go. It's not men that are questioning whether they're going to have trans men, you know, prisoners in their prisons. It's always women. And it's only women dealing with this.

It's only women whose sports categories are being completely muddled now. And we are bearing the... Well, I was going to say, the other two things that have happened. One, you've got world athletics saying they're not going to ban trans athletes and women's sport, just want a reduction again in testosterone, which has no impact on body mass and so on. And then you have these horrific scenes up in Scotland where protesters were actually urging the decapitation of turfs, who are basically any woman that stands up to the ultra-trans-loven. lobby in their demands for what actually constitutes, in my view, a new unfairness and

equality. But this is the patriarchy. This is the new form of the patriarchy that we're fighting against. Because no one else has to deal with this. No one, I mean, the fact that, you know, Jess Phillips in the commons didn't say anything, didn't actually publicly support her colleague. But she's done so much work with domestic violence victims that have happened to be women. It just shows how far this madness has gone.

Kevin, what's wrong with Kirstarmer here? Why can't he just come out and support women? The Labour Party is supposed to be the progressive party that is pro-women's rights. We can all see there is an ongoing erosion both in the way we talk about women, the use of the word woman itself, women's rights in the sporting arena,

and so on. These are pretty well unarguable things that are going on. Why can't the leader of the Labour Party come out and defend even his own MP who's being hounded like this? I think he's going to have to, point address the issue. In politics, any question you can do three things. You can confront it, you can concede it or you can change the conversation. And at the moment, he's always seen to want to change the conversation, because you have a conflict of rights. You have the rights

of women, then you have the rights of trans people, particularly trans women, who say they were born essentially in the wrong bodies. That's what they say. You can't change your sex, but you can change your family. But I think, to see... To me, if I was leading a party, I said it's quite straightforward. I want equality and fairness for trans people. I'm question of but not if it actually infringes and damages existing women's rights. And I'd agree with every word of that. But I think Rosie was right. I think everybody I've met, every woman I've met, honestly, in the last two years, agrees with that.

Yeah, but they will approach it differently. Now, Rosie Duffield doesn't speak for all women in Labor. Half the shadow cabinet, the top team, are women. More than half Labor MPs are women. The leader are going to define a woman. So there are a lot. There are a lot of women in the parliamentary Labour Party, and they will not all agree with the tone and the approach of Rosie Duffield.

But I agree there should be no discriminating employment, no discriminating in health. I found her tone very reasonable, very respectful. But there is the questions of sport and women's places, like changing rooms, refuges, prisons. These questions that have to be addressed. But in a way, it's probably the nastiest debate in politics at the moment, were people screaming on both extremes. It's also, I've got to say, I think, Kate, it's the most cowardly debate. I mean, Labor, all right, they have a male leader,

but next to him in PMQs today, Angela Rainer and Rachel Reeves, two experienced senior female politicians. Where are they? Honestly, they all talk about women's rights all the time. Here is one of their own women being abused by male colleagues in the House of Commons that standing up for safe spaces for women in a week when a multiple rapist is now being sent to a woman's prison. after raping two women.

For a month's segregation and assessment. Because he puts his hand up and says, I'm transitioning. Because his ex-wife says he's just scamming everyone. He appears he's been sent for a month in segregation for assessment. Why does he need to be assessed? Why does he need to be assessed?

He's a man. By the way, you're calling him he. I've just said him. I mean, the truth is his ex-wife thinks the whole thing is a total scam. If he wishes to be addressed as there, I'll call him there. But I, because he's a rapist,

the way he raped two women. Why shouldn't we afford this person any respect? Honestly, I'm talking about this, isn't they? But why should I care about using the right pronoun for a multiple rapist? Because if you're going to conduct this debate, if you're going to conduct this debate with respect, then even though you feel incredibly strongly about what that person did, and everybody will, you do have to afford them the same respect.

I don't agree. Well, I don't know. Why should I? Why should I care? What pronouns? Because I think this is the problem with this debate. And this is where it gets very tricky. And to drag it back to the politics, I found it fascinating today that Keir Starmer, at a point when the Prime Minister is under incredible pressure,

we were talking about Nadine Zahar, we quitting half an hour before we walked into PMQs, that the Labour leader decided to use his first three questions in PMQs to talk about Zara Alina. And he described the person who murdered her as a woman hating thug, Now, that's something that he was very happy to talk about. And particularly identify that I am against, you know, women hating. This crime is awful.

And I think that's an indication that Labor does know it has a problem, but it doesn't yet know how to solve it. Because there's a lot of hatred being spewed about Rosie Duffield, who is standing up for women's safety, which is the very issue he led on in PMQs when he probably should have gone for Nadim Zahawi. But if you're going to make your issue women's safety and women's rights, Why are you throwing to the walls one of your own MPs

who has literally been terrorised and had death threats? Because I think it's, I think, for political parties and maybe for lots of people watching this, it's a deeply uncomfortable and difficult issue and people don't always know how they feel about it and they don't always feel comfortable articulating it in case they get something wrong. Esther, part of the problem is I think there's a kind of terrorism

that goes with this trans debate where anyone who dares to challenge any of it gets immediately targeted in the most hateful way, whether it's J.K. Rowling, Rosie Dahlfield, me, when I do my things. And he comes back to, it's interesting debate. So Kate says, look, if you're going to have a reasonable debate about this, even if it's a multiple rapist,

we should respect their choice of pronouns. To which my response is, I've just read this interview with this person's ex-wife, who says this whole gender transition is a sham pretension and easier life in prison. I'm damned if I'm going to respect his personal pronoun if it's just a scam

to avoid justice if it's a sham then exactly then the processes will he be found out how do you prove somebody's not actually wanting to be a woman

then the processes that we have in place to ensure that somebody who is faking it should pick that up and if that doesn't happen but hang on but hang on because the process at the moment is allowing a rapist

a male rapist of women simply because they've said I'm now turning into a woman okay you go to a woman's prison where there may be more targets for you. That process is failing women. In segregation for a month for a... Why at all, Kevin?

This is what I have an issue. Why at all? Why are we dedicating state resources to this? With all due respect, I don't think the gender identity of prisoners should matter. Your crime is what you're being punished for. There are two prisons male and female. Your gender identity doesn't come into this.

Well, I've got to say... You have that separation. It does matter. It doesn't matter. I'm far more concerned about respect for Rosie Duffer, which is not getting from her own party. and leader than I am about respecting personal pronouns for a multiple rapist.

He can, frankly, swing for it. Anyway, we'll come back with something to a little lighter off the break because tonight, more outrageous lies from the man. He's already the biggest line in political history. It's really when you think about all the great liars in politics around the world in perpetuity for history.

It's quite an achievement. Kat Tim from Fox News joins me to discuss if anything, if anything, if any lie will be too much for Congressman George Santos survive. Welcome back to Piers, Morgan, on Cents. Now, there are liars in politics, we know that, but nobody quite reaches the dizzying heights of US Congressman George Santos, a Republican who literally doesn't even tell the truth about his own name. He's used about eight pseudonyms.

So we thought we'd have a bit of fun with Mr. Santos tonight by playing a game of would I lie to you. Okay, so my panel here all have little paddle balls. We have cat tipped in America. He'll be watching and observing, ready to pounce on Santos at the end of it. So let's start the Wood I lied to you again by pretending for a moment. I am George Santos. The first question, I survived an assassination attempt. False. It is indeed completely untrue.

No proof of that whatsoever. Number two, my mother died on 9-11 in the Twin Towers. False, but he did say it. He did say it, but it's completely untrue. It never happened. In fact, his mother died. I'm George Santos, so I said it. My mother actually died in 2016.

There's no record of her ever having worked in the Twin Towers. Number three, my grandmother was a victim of the Holocaust and I'm Jewish. That's false. That is also completely untrue. Is there a record of him either being Jewish or any of his family ever being involved in the Holocaust? Number four, I could have been a professional basketball player, but I chose elite volleyball because it was easier. False.

You'll get in the hang of it. She was looking at least. Waitly aren't true. Santos barely played volleyball at any level whatsoever and didn't even go to college. At number five, I absolutely did not steal my ex-roommate's berberie scarf and later wear it at a stop-the-steal rally. Oh, God.

That's me, honestly. You did that. That's Fiers Morgan. False. Oh, I was giving up the benefit of the adult. I do. Sadly for me, there are now pictures to prove it. There we are.

Number six, I own 13 properties in a sprawling real estate, Empire. False. Unless they sheds. Yeah, complete lie. I own no properties and I live with my sister. Number seven, I save thousands of dogs' lives

by running an animal charity. Oh, he's... He took money from money. That's true from Kate. No, that's not a whopper. No record of this whatsoever. In fact, he's accused swindling a disabled vet whose dog was dying.

And finally, I wasn't a Brazilian drag queen. He was? That's false. That's false. False. I don't have a lie. Here he is, as a drag queen in Brazil. So there we have it.

Let's go to Kattax. We've been waiting patiently. Cat, I have never encountered a greater liar. I don't think in the world than George Santos, which prompts the question, how is he still a serving congressman? Well, I think that's probably because if there was a lot of pressure for politicians

to resign over lying, there would be no one left. Like you said, they all do it. But usually I think what politicians, the kind of lying that they're involved in is more hypocrisy or things that might sort of help their career. Or there's some sort of discernible reason for why they would have lied about something. Not that it's okay, of course, but as opposed to lying about, for example, as you mentioned, being a volleyball star at a college when you didn't play volleyball nor go to that college. That doesn't affect your life either way. There's something so could he's this man should be studied because it makes no sense. Well, obviously, it's a weird form of, it's like a sociopath meets a narcissist.

I mean, I just, I've never encountered anyone who's so brazen about it, even in public documents, which he's released to potential voters. Up there is all this stuff as if it's all true. He names all the schools he went to, the universities. All of it is completely invented. There's no record of any of this stuff. Right. Or the stuff where it took him forever to.

admit that it was him dressed up in drag. He was still denying it, even when there was a photo of him, which, by the way, I actually think he was not a queen because he was not good at his makeup. There was no contouring done or anything. So you could tell it was his face, okay? And he still was like, I would

never, the media is. I mean, it's a little cracker, isn't he? The same face. Even then, he was like, on Twitter, it is categorically untrue. I have ever been a drag queen in Brazil. And I said to somebody on the show, I said, you know, the only cast iron certainty is that within 24 hours,

there will be a picture to prove he was. And sure enough, within 24 hours, there was a picture of George Santos as a drag queen in Brazil. Yeah, absolutely. I don't understand it. Who is this guy? You know, what does he do, for example, on the weekend? What is a typical weekend look for this guy? Who are his friends?

I just, I'm so fascinated by that because this is like nothing I've ever seen. He doesn't even call himself. He doesn't even call himself George Santos until very recently. He calls himself all sorts of pseudonyms. He's been using an aliases. So when you say who is this guy, he's not even who he think he is. George Santos

is the name he's given himself in the last year and a half. Yeah, I know. Look, I would really like to get to know this person, and I said this also. I think he might be a great friend because you could trust him with all your secrets because if he told everybody your secrets, you know,

No one believe it. I mean, panel here, I mean, it's astonishing the scale of this. This is a British politician who had lied on this monumental scale. He'd be long gone or she'd be long gone by now. And yet he hangs on because the Republicans have a very tenuous hold on the House of Representatives. So there's a political motivation to not getting rid of him. But where have we got to in the world of politics globally, where political expediency means you will literally tolerate a sitting,

congressman who is, who was told literally 30, 40 whoppers. There've always been liars. Donald Trump himself, the Washington Post, said he lied 20,000 times in his presidency. But this guy is almost like the laboratory. He loved child of Trump and Boris Johnson. Trump never lied about where he was born or the jobs he'd had or any of the basic stuff on a CV, right? I mean, this is, these guys put this out on his CV.

But the thing is, I'm surprised the Republican Party doesn't have the apparists to actually do a background search on the people that they, put up as candidates. That's what's incredible. In 2019, I don't think they cared because I think they thought, yes,

I think they felt in the, it was the third district in New York, they just felt he had the best chance of beating the Democrat. They just didn't care. And he supported the big Trump, lie, they did the election stolen and so on. I mean, Kate,

do we have fundamentally, a massively bigger problem now with political veracity than we've ever had before? I feel we do. I feel like Trump and Boris Johnson and these guys, they changed the game

for public, dependency on truth that they just lied so often that people have just stopped worrying whether politicians lie. Doesn't matter as much. I don't think people have stopped worrying about it, but I wonder if something has been eroded slowly by what's happened in politics here, and in America, actually, you can see the evidence of that

and some of the lies here. I mean, I wonder, even though I think they've stuck him on two congressional committees now, I wonder whether now we've got to the money, because I think he declared it made a $600,000 donation to himself, and now he says, actually, I didn't pay that money. I don't really know where it came from. When it comes to money, I mean, that's a different story. The Republicans might find that harder

to swallow. But yeah, I do wonder about that. And particularly in the conversation around Nadine Zaharwe, you know, lots of people are asking, well, who knew about this? When did they know? And why did no one ask the questions? And I wonder whether that's part of the problem, too, not really wanting to know anymore. Yeah, Kat, I mean, what's a view in America

about this? Because I can't imagine there aren't a lot of Republicans you feel deeply uncomfortable about this guy, and just what a terrible liar he is. Yeah, I mean, he's obviously a lot more than just a bit of a laughing stock. I don't know anybody who is saying that any of this stuff is cool or remotely normal. I think that another issue is partisanship, right? As you sort of alluded to, I think that it's just all people care about is their own team.

And as long as he's on your team, then he'll want him in there. And that goes for both sides. And I think that that kind of breeds this kind of corruption and lying, which is why I've actually never voted for either. major party. I always vote third party libertarian, but the vast majority of people are super hyper-partisan. I totally agree. It's across both parties and it's really out of control and they've got to get a grip of this.

Truth does matter. Kat, great to talk to you. Thank you very much. Great to see you, Pack. Whatever you're up to tonight. Keep it uncensored. That's it. Good night.