Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Suella Sacked, Pro-Palestine Protests, Jeremy Corbyn

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

On Piers Morgan Uncensored tonight, Piers is joined by Douglas Murray to discuss Suella's sacking and the pro-palestinian protests as well as in the studio, Jeremy Corbyn. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight up here's Morgan on our sense, Asuelo Braverman is sacked after whipping up the mobs who brought shame to our streets. David Cameron is back in government. Has Rishi Sunnak taken charge or just buried the Conservatives? We'll debate. As peaceful Palestine protests were marred by shocking displays

of brazen anti-Semitism. I thought to Chelsea's co-owner, Jonathan Goldstein, and the former Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who spoke out that march. Live from the News Building in London, this is Piers. Here's Morgan Uncensored. Good evening from London.

Welcome to Pierce Morgan Unsensit. Soella Bravaman poured fuel on the flames of national tensions before Saturday's pro-Palestine March. She gave a green light to the morons who came to London on the false pretext the senator was under attack. She effectively told the public they couldn't trust the police. Those who came looking for a fight did so with her apparent blessing. Well, scenes like this were predictable, inevitable,

and entirely her fault. Reparmonist of Rishu-Soonak has been criticised as weak for letting Braverman get away with repeated outbursts that were specifically engineered to cause controversy. Critics say he's risk-averse, managerial, not a leader, but by sacking Braverman and bringing David Cameron back into government, he certainly changed that narrative.

And judging by how enraged Labour supporters are about his return, I'd say they'd probably fear that it's a rather smart move. But if part of the plan was to overshadow Braverman's sacking, or bad luck, we won't forget that she abandoned her duty to keep his country safe, who's reckless and extreme,

to criticise the police ahead of the most controversial public demonstration in years. She had to go, as I said on his show. But that doesn't mean the police or the pro-Palestine supporters are immune to criticism. Last week, I interviewed Douglas Murray. In exchange, it's now been viewed many millions of times around the world. A lot of people focused on this exchange. Okay, well, here's a challenge, peers.

If you decided to go on some kind of march, and in week one, you discovered that you had the BNP along your side calling, for instance, for the murder of all black people, would you not wonder whether or not you should go, on week two. Would you not drop out by about week three? I'd have thought so, I would. Well, you asked a very pertinent question, and the answer is yes.

As I said, I would. Many thousands of people marched peacefully to support Palestine this weekend. They've every right to do so a democratic country this series about free speech. But let's be clear, among those cries were some hateful racist and blatant anti-Semites. Many people again chanted this.

That's unacceptable. From the river to the sea calls for the complete eradication of Israel. If there any doubt about their intent, listen to this guy. Why, every so many 100 years, the Zionist gets slaughtered? Because Hitler knew how to deal with these people. They probably made a program so they can create a state of Israel in the expense of Palestinian Muslims' blood. Well, it's disgraceful, isn't it?

Among the crowds, there were many offensive placards. This woman marched proudly around with a star of David mocked up as a swastika. Another signs showed a Jewish snake suffocating the world, a familiar Nazi trope. These men showed up in Hamas headbands. There were many more examples. We've all seen them. Protesters have every right to demonstrate

against Israel's response to the terror attacks on October the 7th. I've said that repeatedly. But we can't allow this unfettered anti-Semitism on our streets. Why didn't other protesters step in to prevent this? Why don't the police seem to do nothing besides tweeting about it afterwards? I remember when the police stepped in preemptively to arrest Republican protesters who tried to picket the King's coronation.

I didn't think that was right at the time, but if they could be capable of doing that, on that occasion, why couldn't they do that to the blatant anti-Semites on this occasion? Some of whom were obviously glorifying terrorists, and that is a crime in this country. Well, I'm joined now by the Broadcaster in Form Editor for Sunday Times,

Andrew Neil. Andrew, so much to talk about, so little time to talk about it, But let me just get your take, first of all, on the bombshell news today, which we thought was going to be Suella Braviman getting fired, but also the extraordinary comeback of David Cameron. What's your response to this? Well, the government's had trouble getting middle-aged men who lose their jobs

back into the Labour Force, so this is an example that shows it can be done. But in addition to that, I think it's, look, the Tory gene pool is pretty depleted, and David Cameron has stature, and experience and recognition. He will add to the weight of a cabinet that is pretty lightweight. He brings a wealth of experience in foreign affairs to the job. As Prime Minister, he knows a lot and learned a lot about foreign affairs because foreign affairs these days has run inside 10 Downing Street,

probably even more than it is in the Foreign Office. People, not just foreign ministers around the world will see him, but prime ministers and presidents will see him. So it's a good high-profile appointment for the government. Will it make any difference politically? Is it a game-changer? No, it won't. I don't think it may reassure a few swithering Tories in the blue wall

that the government hasn't given up on them, but it isn't going to affect the result of the election. There is no election in British democratic history that has been affected by who the Foreign Secretary is. What about the removal of Swahler Braviman? Does that denote the real? Rishi Sunak, A, wants to instill authority on his cabinet, and she clearly breached that authority.

But secondly, that he's moving the party, perhaps slightly more to the centre, and is not so bothered anymore about appeasing the right wing of the party. Well, I think the idea that Ritchie Sunak was on the right of the party was always mistaken. He's basically a non-ideological technocrat and a fiscal conservative, which is what David Cameron was, George Osborne. his chancellor was, too.

He's pretty much in the mainstream of conservative thinking. I think the main reason wasn't even ideological with Scylla Brabman. I mean, you know, Linton Crosby, the great Australian election strategist, said that politicians have got to realize they're not pundits. That's your job, Pierce, and my job. We're not politicians. We're pundits. They're not pundits.

They're politicians. And Srella Brabman had basically become a pundits. Rather than running the Home Office, doing something about what was concerning her, she was writing articles for the Times and giving interviews. No Prime Minister can tolerate that for long. Mr Sunak is not thought to be a strong leader, so he had to show the smack-of-firm government in making a change. And he did as soon as he got the remembrance weekend out of the way.

Talking about that weekend, the big pro-Palestinian march, Obviously, there were a bunch of Yobbs who turned up as well, which was entirely predictable, I think, after all the incendiary rhetoric of the few days before. But putting that to one side, this general agreement that their behaviour was appalling. What do we do about big marches? 300,000 people, it's estimated here,

where the majority of them are genuinely marching, appears peacefully and for peace. They want to ceasefire in Gaza. But they are joined by a not-insenged, significant number of people who are blatantly spewing anti-Semitic tropes or chance or pro-Hamas regalia in some cases. What do we do about this? Well, I think it was a busy that the march took place on Saturday, but I wouldn't have banned it and didn't want to ban it. In the end, the right to protest is a democratic right, and that's a right that can be exercised whether we approve

or disapprove. Indeed, it's easy to approve of protesters who are processing things of which we approve. It's more difficult, but more important to allow them to protest when they're protesting of things that we don't approve on. So if the organisers really wanted it to go ahead, I think it was the right to allow it to go ahead. I don't think they did their calls any good. It wasn't necessary to have done it on Saturday. There's been four marches already. There are plenty of weekends to come between now and Christmas to have more. But that was was their choice. And the main violence, the main Yovish behavior, came from the hard right, who turned up around the Senate up and down the street. They were the real thugs there. However,

there was an element to that march, to the pro-Palestine march, which was very unsavory. And you touched on it, and you're monologue at the beginning. And I think, you know, there's a right to protest, but protesters also have obligations. And their obligation is to stay within the law, and within the bounds of democratic legitimacy and proper protest. And I'm afraid, anti-Semitism and race hatred and shouting Yihad in a clear context of wiping Israel out is not acceptable. And the police will need to get much tougher on that and leave the bulk of the peaceful demonstrators

to get on exercising the democratic rights. Yep, completely agree. Andrew Neal, as always, I concur. Thank you very much indeed for joining me. Thank you. I appreciate it. With me in the studio as a journalist and columnist

at Veehan, Emily Sheffield, and associate editor at The Mirror, Kevin McGuire. Well, let me let me start with you because in your other life, the David Cameron's sister-in-law. Did you know about this bombshell coming down the line?

No, I think they managed to keep this incredibly quiet. It didn't leak, which is kind of... I mean, unprecedented. Kind of incredible, actually. It didn't leak. And, yeah, I was as shocked as anyone when I got the news this morning. Because he'd always said he's not going to come

back to frontline politics. It wouldn't be right, he said. Is it right that he's doing it? I think it is right. He is someone who really does believe in serving his country. However many, there are cynics out there about politicians. There are still a great deal of politicians who do go into politics to serve their country. And David is most definitely one of them. I think it is a good move by Rishi Sunak. He's got someone with some serious gravitas and experience in the job of Foreign Secretary at a time which we cannot doubt. I mean, We've just been talking about the march on Saturday. What's going on in Gaza, what's going on in Israel,

what's going on the Ukraine, which has been wiped off the front pages, which is a terrible thing because guess who is, guess who the opportunity is given to Putin? David spent time with Putin. He spent time with Netanyahu. And I think what Rishi Sunak is doing here, and everyone can talk about whether it's, you know, he's appeasing the blue wall and trying to win votes. I think he's actually trying to govern.

I mean, he is prime minister. And Swinabraman was not. not governing. She was acting like a commentator. She was totally using her position to advertise for the next job. I thought she had two problems, Kevin. One, she wasn't the brightest tulip in the patch. Certainly the kiss. I mean, her analogy of the Northern Ireland marches, for example, to this total ignorance. But secondly, just openly defying a boss, you can't tolerate that as a boss in soon next position. I do actually think, just judging by Labor's reaction, that they're a little bit concerned about this appointment. It's smart. Smart policies, isn't it?

Look, it's said Rishi Sunak turned to David Cameron because he couldn't persuade William Haye, who used to be a foreign secretary, to take the job. But I'm not against experience, people, are you? But the re... No, I value experience as long as you've still got enthusiasm. But I think what Rishi Sunak has done is a good idea for Labour. That's why they're cock a hoop

because they remember David Cameron with austerity running down the NHS, benefit cuts, what happened to public services, and he lost the 2016. referendum, which he called himself as a tactical maneuver, and he lost it. So they will now be able to say Rishi Sunak presents himself as I'm the Prime Minister of Change, and he's conference speech only last month. He attacked 30 years of old consensus that encompassed Labor and David Cameron. Now he's got him by his side because the Tory talent pool, as Andrew Neal

said, is drained, and he will not be able to present himself as a fresh-faced, new Prime Minister committed to change. You can't do it. Look, it's back to no future. I don't agree, actually. I'm really sorry. Kier Stama's front bench, shadow front bench, has got people like Yvette Cooper in. Yvette Cooper is hardly a fresh face. Good cabinets have a mix

of very experienced people and fresh blood. And Sunak has got that. You are the Prime Minister who lost Europe. You lost Europe. Now your foreign secretary. You'll be a joke in cabinoles. He won two elections. And Kierstama, I'm sorry, given what we've just seen on the

television is the man who backed Corbyn. So Labour have got... We've got Corbyn... Kevin, we've actually got Jeremy Corbyn coming in. Emily can try and deflect like that. I'm not deflecting. But the fact is... The fact is, he's supported Corby.

People will now see. It's the same old consumers. When Sunak's entire strategy was, I am the change. You are voting for me, you're the change. No, you're not. You've got your maid. Dodgy Dave here.

Dodgy Dave is her brother-in-law. I know. But I like Emily. But that doesn't mean I have to like all of Emily's father. Do you call him Dodgy Dave at home? No, I did not call him. Let me ask you, Kevin, about Jeremy Corby. He's not been on the show before.

He's coming in live tonight with Len McCluskey. To my surprise, and they've agreed to come in, despite all the newsless breaking, which may have changed their minds. You know, where does Corbyn sit here in the Labour Party? Oh, he's pretty much pushed away. He won't be allowed to stand as a Labour MP. He's toying with standing as an independent.

He's toying with standing for Mayor of London, but he wouldn't be able to stand as Labour. He's got some supporters around the issue of Israel and Palestine, unquestionably. But there are others who will support the Palestinian cause and say the Israeli response is disproportionate, but they think he gets the tone wrong. He is too anti-Israel. And he was found to have been presiding over a leadership, which was deemed to be not helpful to Jewish people,

which is a terrible thing for a Labour leader to have. hanging over him, right? Come on, we're not describing it as not helpful to Jewish people. What was going on in the Labour Party was anti-Semitic. That is like saying what's happening now is not helpful to Jewish people on those. Well, it was the equality in human rights. It should be called out for what it is.

Yeah, they said the party was possible for unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination while the leadership was guilty of serious failings. I mean, it was a serious charge. It was a very, very damaging charge, and it was a stain on Labor, particularly a party on the left that preaches equality and responsibility.

for all. It's kind of what... What's the one question you'd ask, Corbyn? Are you going to stand on the general election? What you ask? I would. I'd say, does he regret what he presided over when he ran the Labour Party? Those good questions. My job is done. Thank you, both of you. And the Centre next, the former chair of the Jewish Leadership Council

and what of Chelsea Football Club's co-owners, Jonathan Goldstein, joins me live for his thoughts on the weekend's protests and the ongoing war in Israel and Guard. Welcome back to Pierce, Morgan. I'm joined now by Jonathan Goldstein, the former chair of Jewish Leadership Council and co-owner of Chelsea Football Club. Jonathan, great to see you. What was your reaction?

As a member of the Jewish community, a leading member, there's a lot of work for the Jewish community. What did you feel about this march at the weekend? And the march is generally with the volume of people who are turning up spewing anti-Semitism. Well, let me start by saying that the far right who turned up on Saturday on no friends of anyone. No one welcomes that.

It's hateful. it's absolutely the epitome of everything that no one wants to see in British society, racism at its forefront. Really, that needs to be condemned by everybody before you start. But in terms of the general rallies, obviously they've caused great concern to the Jewish community. Now, I am convinced that there are a significant number of people

on those rallies that genuinely want to see a peaceful situation within Israel and with the Palestinian, but I'm afraid that there are a significant number of people, encouraged by invariably by the leadership of those rallies who are Hamas supporting, who are supporting and espousing hateful and genocidal messages on that rally. And that needs to be condemned. And the reason it continues is because the leadership of those rallies continues to encourage that.

And when you have somebody like my next guest, Jeremy Corbyn, who's speaking there, but not publicly condemning those people who are the minorities. Let's be clear, but he's not publicly condemning them. What would your message to him be? Well, the message is very simple. If it was any other minority in this country, Mr Corbyn would ensure that they did not feel victimized,

they did not feel bullied, they did not feel intimidated, so that the Jewish community does not feel safe going into London during these weekends. Piers, you're a straightforward talking human being. We all know that from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, where the population of Israel is 10 million

of which 8 million almost are Jewish people means a land free of Jewish people. It can mean nothing else. It is a genocidal message. And the fact that it is being encouraged by the leadership of those rallies creates hate, creates incitement, and creates a great deal of mistrust.

I mean, we've seen people blatantly saying, on camera, through social media, at the march on Saturday, death to the Jews, I mean, it's not ambiguous. It's not ambiguous. If you've seen others chanting jihad, That's not ambiguous. And what you'll get from your next guest is a small denunciation.

But let's go back to October 7th. Mr. Corbyn failed to condemn in the days following the actions of Hamas. He called for many years Hamas his friends. He thought they were peace-loving. The Jewish community has known for decades that these people not just want to kill Israelis, but they want to kill Jews. Now, I was in Israel on the 7th of October. I was there on the day.

If I had been there, there would have been no discrimination between me and anybody else. The largest number of hostages other than Israelis are Thai workers who are working in farms in the south of Israel. Now, I saw no placard at the rally at the weekend calling for the release of the hostages. No. I saw none. I see no request for Hamas to unconditioned release over 200 babies, children, mothers, fathers,

romulus, radical survivors. I see none of that. Okay, so let me spin it around now to the criticism of Israel's response. I read today that one of Israel's ministers was saying they think they've got about three more weeks of being able to wage the war as they are before international support starts to really evaporate. There's going to be a tipping point here because there are so many innocent Palestinians getting slaughtered as they go after Hamas and of course the demographic

of Gaza being what it is so many of those are kids look the loss of innocent life on all sides is tragic let us start with that position I think we all will agree that the problem that I think Israel has is that

it doesn't know what else to do and I ask you what would Britain do what would any other civilized society do with the infrastructure that Hamas has built up on its border. We've all seen the pictures of the tunnels, hundreds of miles of these tunnels underground. And it appears to be absolutely true that the main nerve centre of the Hamas leadership is under a hospital. But is there for you, is there a limit to this? Look, I am not on the ground and nor are you, okay? You know people who are, I think.

Right. So we are relying upon statistics given by a minister. three controlled by terrorists. So let's first of all understand that. But let me also explain something from a very personal perspective. Over 15 years ago, my younger brother, with his wife and three children, emigrated to Israel. I have a niece of 19 years old and a nephew in his early 20s serving in the Israeli army. I know these children. I know their contemporaries.

They are fighting for the survival of their country. If Hamas was to lay down their weapons, there would be peace. There was an effective peace up until 7th of October. I'm afraid if Israel lays down its weapons, there would be no Israel. And this is the way that this is now being seen by Israel. On the 7th of October, Israel lost control of its state for a number of hours. We've all seen the pictures of places like Kibbutzbairi. And I'm afraid that Israel has no option than to do its utmost safely, as safely as it can,

within the confines and regulations of international law to remove the infrastructure and the leadership of Hamas. When that has happened, we can all hope and pray that that creates a basis for a peaceful coexistence between Israel and the Palestinians. That is what Jews pray for every single day. The major prayer in the Jewish world three times a day is to pray for peace in the world.

And that's what we all hope for, that out of this, we can remove the danger to Israeli society. We can move the danger to Palestinians. Hamas and no friends of the Palestinians, as we've seen. No, they're not. And hopefully lead on to a more peaceful future. Jonathan Goldstein, thank you very much indeed.

I appreciate it. On Senator Next, as I said, the former leader of Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn and Trey Unionist Lemmocke will be live in the studio. Well, welcome back. I'm joining them by the editors of the new anthology, poetry for the many, but they're rather unlikely anthology. It's former Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn,

and former Unite General Secretary, Len McCluskey. Well, welcome to both of you. I certainly wasn't expecting you to to grace my studio, so thank you for coming in. Right, Jeremy, let me start with you. You were at this march on Saturday, and you were speaking there. And as you know, it was a controversial march. For my point, I think a lot of people there are there for the right reasons. They're there because they genuinely believe that they want to have a ceasefire in Gaza and stop more people being killed. I understand that. But there are people there, and we've

seen all the images all over social media, who are blatant anti-Semites, and in some cases, blatantly supporting Hamas. What do you feel about that? Well, they weren't taking part in the march that was organised by PSC and stopped the war. Well, they were there.

Well, I've seen the images. The equivalent of the crowd of 10-cup finals came to London on Saturday, to march for peace in Gaza because they're appalled at what's happening there. And there were people there

who wanted a ceasefire. There were black cards there were calling for release of... I've already said that. Calling for the release of the hostages. I'm concerned about the ones who were chanting death to the Jews, the ones who were wearing Hamas

regalia, the ones who were chanting... They should have been arrested by the police. Every protest that's ever taken place in London and I've been on many of them. Always as a group of people, there to cause trouble. They're normally dealt with by the police. Don't be asking Jeremy or the people who organised.

They perfectly legitimate protest. Why shouldn't I ask someone who helped organise it? No, he didn't help organise it? He was a speaker. All right, well, let me ask you this. So he's answered in fact that it should have been arrested. You agree? If they're breaking the law and showing illegal signs,

then obviously the police have to act. So anybody who... Let me just ask you a simple question. You seem to be over-concerned with... With amity. Semitism. No, no, I did not. Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. What I said, what's about to say was, you seem to be minimizing the fact that 800,000 people, one of the very biggest demonstration in our history. Well, it was 300,000. Okay. Well, I'm not, I'm minimizing your

description of the size of the crowd, but I'm not minimizing, as I said of the... The march that extends from Battersea to Marble Arch. But I said at a start, the majority of people there were for their well-intention reasons, right? But he was... But what do you want, Piers? Do you want us to say that anybody engaged in anti-Semitism, we condemn out of hand?

Because we've been doing that, both of us, all our lives. What was interesting then was that you were in Fasic that you said they should all be arrested. Do you, Jeremy, think they should all be arrested? If people have broken the law and the police feel there's a case for it, then of course they can do that and they did do that in some cases. But I want you to understand the size of this demonstration, the peaceful nature of it, a very large number of Jewish people in the Jewish bloc,

also carrying placards, calling for the release of hostages. This was a cry of all kinds of people, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian. No question. Everything calling for an urgent ceasefire. I think the question you should be asking is, why hasn't our government listened to what ordinary people are saying? Well, because I don't agree that there should be a ceasefire. And there are, I think, a very arguable point about it, which we're going to come to.

previous guest says you haven't condemned what amassed in October the 7th. Have you? Of course I have. And do you unreservedly condemned? At every speech I've made up, utterly condemned the killing of October the 7th. And it was a taking of innocent life. It was totally wrong under any circumstances. You don't bring back the tragedy of those 1,400 deaths by killing 10,000 people in Gaza.

You have to have a process that leads to a ceasefire that hopefully... How do you get... Do you think Hamas should stay in charge of the Palestinians in Gaza? What's your opinion? Wait a minute. I'll tell you how you should get rid of Amas dead easy. Go on. Get the Israeli government to comply with international law,

withdraw from the occupied territories, dismantle illegal settlements, and build a viable Palestine, which is the United Nations position. It's the British government's position. It's the American position. Why would that stop Hamas behaving like? Because there would not be a need for Hamas.

But what justifies what they did on the table of the time? Nothing justifies it. There are a bunch of many evil barbarians. It was disgraceful. They're not going to listen to any reason. It's interesting. It's interesting. Their charter is a nihilistic view of Israel and getting rid of it.

It's interesting that you always have on the screens, like many other media. The war between Israel and Amaz. It's not a war between Israel and Amaz. It is. It's between Israel and the Palestinian. people. But it's not, though. Thousands and thousands. So you agree with thousands of people, women and children being killed. No. I don't agree with 1,500 being killed on October the 7th. Neither do I.

But I do agree. Let me explain what I do agree with. Can I put something to you? Let me explain to you. Let me just clarify my position. Give me a chance. Give me a chance. I've had lots of pro-Palestinian guests on his show, as you may or may not be aware. And you've been very good on. But I've tried to be very fair, but I've been consistent about my own opinion. I think after what Hamas did on October the 7th, it is utterly inconceivable that Hamas remain in power in Gaza. Inconceivable. They are a terror group like ISIS and they have to be eliminated.

The question then becomes, how do you get rid of them? Now, my question for you is, do you agree Hamas has to go? Look, I don't support Hamas. I'm not a friend of Amas. You used to call them friends. No, hang on. We did. No, Karen.

Let's get this clear. We did say that we are friends here. Can you hang on a second? Is that not true? Can I say something very clearly to you? Yes. which I've said many times, and I said it on Andrew Maher two weeks ago, 10 years ago, I was in a private meeting in the House of Commons

with a number of people who were representative of different Palestinian groups. It was an attempt to understand their views and to bring people together. For a short time, a person who was related to Hamas left the room. And I said, in a collegiate, a friendly and appropriate way, as you would at any meeting, where is our friend from Hamas gone? That's all I said. So you called her mass friends? No.

Oh, come on. Come on. Peers. You just said, how many times have you sat in a meeting and called somebody a friend? I wouldn't say my friends from the IRA. I wouldn't say my friend from ISIS. I wouldn't say my friend from Al-Qaeda. Look, I'm saying my friends from a mass.

Jeremy, you might have changed your mind, which you're perfectly entitled to do. Peers. And my understanding is you do now regret what you said. You are obsessed, obsessed with tittle-tattle of politics. Really? It happens 10 years ago. Why don't you instead concentrate on this? You think people supporting Hamas is tickle-tat.

Let me finish. Give me a chance. Really? Yeah, give me a chance. Let me finish. How do you think people in Palestine feel under occupation? How do you think it's like what it's like growing up? I know how they feel. Growing up with a soldier outside your house.

I think... How do you feel, how would you feel? Well, can I answer? Can I answer? How would you feel if your children were being bombed in a hospital? Can I answer? Yeah, please. Okay.

I had a Palestinian doctor on here a few days ago. who'd lost over 30 members of his family, right? He grew up on the Jabili refugee camp. His parents were displaced in 1948, and they ended up in a refugee camp, where he then lost three of his daughters were killed in Israeli strike on a home he finally got from himself, he then emigrated and has now been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

He was in tears at this desk in that seat. So I don't need to be told. I've said that the way that Israel is able, even today, to turn the tap on of water, and energy and fuel into Gaza is wrong. Palestinian should have the same human rights as people in Israel. I'm unequivocal about that,

but I'm also unequivocal in my head that Hamas has to go. And so the question for you, Len, and for you, Jeremy, but the question is, if Israel doesn't do it like they're doing it, how do they get rid of the mass? I just give you the answer before. Hang on, Len, Len.

No, no, no, no, Pierce. I give you the answer before. I'm going to ask you a question. Do you condemn the Israeli government for the occupied settlements that are growing and have been growing for decades and are against international law? Do you condemn that?

Yes. Fine. Then the best way to get rid of any extremism that exists in nations and groups is to comply with international law and make certain that, Palestine is given a viable. And I'll finish with this question.

If we all believe in a two-state solution, why doesn't our government recognize the state of Palestine? Why did they only recognize the state of Israel? I think you can only have a two-state solution. I think you could only have a two-state solution. But in this particular part of this very long conflict, you have a situation where Hamas now represents an existential threat to Israel. And they've repeated it last week, their spokesman,

from Hamas repeatedly said when he was challenged, we want to do this again and again and again and again. Let me ask Jeremy a question. Come on, can we... I want to come back to this thing about what do you do, what do you do with Hamas? Do you keep them in power? Israel's claiming.

It is... Not from him. He agrees with the Israeli government. No, you wouldn't answer. I said, would you keep Amass in power? You wouldn't answer. They wouldn't be in power. Can you not speak for him?

It's not a puppet show. It's not a puppet show, Le. It's not a puppet. He's allowed to answer for himself. Of course he is. Well, let him answer. The reality is. The reality is.

Don't talk for Jeremy Corbyn. All you want to do is bully people. Who am I bullying? You're bullying constant. There's two of you. Okay. One's run a party in the country. One's run a major union.

Are you really feeling bullied, let me class. Do me a favour. I'm not. Do me a bloody favour. Let me come back to Jeremy Corby. If I may, without you speaking for me. Would you get rid of a mass? Can I say something?

You can answer my question? No, can I say something? Can I say something? Can I say something? Yes or no? Thank you. Can I say something? Thank you.

Israel claiming it is conducting legitimate self-defense. Where is legitimate self-defense pre-ordering the bombing of a hospital, knowing there are children in it? Where is legitimate self-defense? You've heard their argument about that. They believe that Hamas, and this has been corroborated, by the way, by everyone from Bill Clinton Bill Clinton is on the record as saying that, this is years ago,

he's on the record as saying that Hamas, five, six, seven years ago, in fact, you know what, a assistant to him said himself. Here. El Shifamash is really smart. When they decide to rocket Israel, they insinuate themselves in the hospitals, in the schools, in the highly populous areas. I killed myself to give the Palestinians a state.

I had a deal they turned down. that would have given them all of Gaza, wait, wait, all of Gaza, between 96 and 97% of the West Bank, compensating land in Israel. So two things then, we'll come to the second part in a moment, but he's crystal clear Bill Clinton in 2016. He was President of the United States for two terms, right? That Hamas were using hospital schools, mosques and others deliberately,

and they don't care about Palestinian lives. They don't care about them. They knew when they did. They did what they did in October the 7th. There was going to be a massive reaction by Israel. They knew thousands of innocent Palestinians would die. They don't care about their people. So my question for you, Jeremy, which you have an answer, Jeremy.

There are 10,000 dead already? I know. How many more are they going to be before this is over? How many more, holy innocent, Palestinian children, are going to be killed because of Israeli military. Answer my question. Answer my question. A ceasefire means a ceasefire. That's why we're calling it on both sides.

Right. Would you have said ceasefire. This is an Israeli argument back at you. Would you have said ceasefire to the Allied forces in World War II against the Nazis when they went after cities like Dresden and killed tens of thousands of people in one night? Would you have said ceasefire or would you have said you keep going until you finish and defeat the enemy? That's their argument, that they're a war with a group that wants to remove Israel completely and kill every Jew that can get their hands on.

Now, I've asked you repeatedly. Without wishing to rehearse everything in the Second World War, I think military targets should be industrial and military targets. Right, but a lot of Germans... As you know, a lot of German civilians died in the process of taking on the Nazis. So my question again, and just answer this question, would you keep a mass in power? It's not up to you. What's your opinion?

You're expressing plenty of other opinions, aren't you? Can you calm down a minute? Can I ask you a question? Well, you know, I'm sorry. Can you come down a minute? If you think a mass should stay in power, say so. Can I ask you a question? Well, I wanted to answer the question.

question. Can I ask you? No, he can answer it. Can I ask you a question? It's not a puppet show, Len. Why won't you say Hamas? Here go. You are a very strange form of interviewing. Am I? Where you interrupt, shout and abuse your guest. Well, you refuse to answer my question and he keeps trying to answer it for you. No, I'm going to ask you a question. No, I'm not going to ask me a question, it's not your show, it's mine. And I keep asking you the same question. Would you look, keep Hamas in power? What I said was there has to be a ceasefire. A ceasefire has to be both sides. That ceasefire will then hopefully develop into a longer-term peace.

Well, you think Israel can do... Hang on a minute. You think Israel can do peace with Hamas? Israel has been talking to Hamas for 20 years. You think they can do peace for them after October the 7th? They've been talking... Listen, October the 7th was abominable and appalling. That were agreed on.

And you think Israel can do peace with people that did that? I managed to get two sentences in between... Because you won't answer to my question. Look, if you want to have a discussion, fine. Answer my question. If you want to just shout at me, that's your prerogative, your TV, your show. Should Hamas stay in power? Listen, what I said was, a ceasefire means a ceasefire.

It means both sides have to ceasefire. It means you then. Now, you said that. Should Hamas stay in power? You're done yet. It's actually a critical question. Are you done yet? It's a critical question.

Are you done yet? No, it's the question. Are you done yet? Should they stay in power? You done yet. This country says they're a terror group. Do you agree? and should they stay in power?

Listen, I do not approve, support or welcome Hamas. Are they a terror group? Everybody knows what they are. Are they a terror group? Look, Piers, can we have a discussion? Can you say it? Piers, can we have a discussion? Can you call them a terror group?

Can you call them a terror group? Is it possible to have a rational discussion with you? Are you prepared to call Hamas a terror group? Is it possible to have a rational discussion with you? Can you? Can you? Can you? Can you? You answer it.

No. It's my show. You answer my question. Are Hamas a terror group? Listen, can I... Are they a terror group? Peers, can I... Answer the question.

Can I speak? Are they a terror group? Peers... No, then. If you let me speak, I'll say something. Go on then. A ceasefire means both sides... You said that.

Are they a terror group? Listen, I said that because that is part of the process. Are they a terror group? Why can't you say it? Peers, can we go through what ought to be happening? Just answer my question. Why do you think... Arama...

A terrorist... ...in the world are calling for a ceasefire. Why do you think... Come on, answer that. Do you want to me? No, it's not your show. You've got so many opinions...

Why should I answer yours when you won't answer mine? Why do you give out your opinions all day and every day? And you don't like it when somebody... ...rushed it back on you? You won't like it when somebody pushes back on you. Yes or no. You won't like it when somebody pushes back on you. What I've said is...

I've asked you two questions. Should Amas stay in power and are there a terror group? You're refusing to answer either of them. That is very telling. And you wonder why people think you had a problem with Jewish people. What is very telling is your inability to keep quiet for 30 seconds to allow anybody to answer a question. On my show, I ask people questions. You shout at people.

Normally they answer them. You shout at people. No, no, only when they won't answer the question. You shout at people all the time. You've deliberately not answer my question. Piers, I've explained to you how to get rid of them. Are they a terror group, then? Of course.

Thank you. Why can't you say that? Hang on, hang on. You've answered it? Should they stay in power, Len? Should they stay in power? No, they won't be in power. No, no, do you believe they should?

They won't be in power. Do you believe they should? They won't believe they should? They won't believe. Okay, so you've answered my questions. I believe, hang on. It's not that difficult to say Hamas should go and they're a terror group. Why can't you, Jeremy Corbyn't.

Ask something about the behavior of the Israeli army and the Israeli government. Why can't you say that? Why can't you have a discussion about how a ceasefire? would come about. Why can't you have a discussion about a process for the future? Because you know why, Jeremy? Which brings about a piece for everybody in the region. Because when I repeatedly...

And it does not mean that the people of Gaza... Because when I repeatedly... When I repeatedly ask you, are Hamas a terror organisation and should they stay in power and you are simply incapable of saying that they're a terror group and they shouldn't stay in power? The most important thing... The most important thing...

How do you stop? Anyway, let me conclude with this. You've done a book on poetry. Which we gave you a copy of. Poetry for the Many. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Wonderful poetry from wonderful people,

encouraging the working classes to embrace and enjoy culture, poetry and music for the many. I love poetry. We can agree on that. Good. Thank you very much. Goodbye. Okay.

On Sentencing Next, Douglas Murray joins me live from Tel Aviv. It's something else here now. Something new. From exclusively on Paramount Plus, it's the series Stephen King calls scary as hell. Everything here is impossible, but it's also real. Sci-fi vision calls it the best show streaming right now.

We're running out of time and we still don't know the rules. Don't miss what the movie blog calls something you need to watch. Saving those children is how we all go home. From Binge All Episodes exclusively on Paramount Plus. Welcome back. I'm joined by the author and associators of the spectator, Douglas. Douglas, you'd be waiting patiently over there in Israel. What did you make of that extraordinary interview? Well, I mean, listening to Jeremy Corb, let alone Len, talking about the Middle East and the way to solve the Middle East's problems, is like watching somebody trying to do brain surgery whilst wearing boxing gloves.

I mean, it is so cack-handed. It's just beyond belief. Nobody in this region could make any sense of their dreams and claims and assertions. Everything that they said falls apart on first analysis. And the most extraordinary thing to me was Jeremy Corbyn's resolute refusal to answer two simple questions. Should Hamas stay in power and are they a terror group? He wouldn't do it. I mean, Lemmiklowski answered both. But Corbyn was paralyzed.

He could not answer those two basic questions. But I'm afraid, as you know, peers, that's a character, career trait of Jeremy Corp. It was just the same with Sinn Féin IRA. He always seems to keep the door open to terror groups, whether they are anti-British terror groups like the IRA or anti-Israel groups like Hamas. I don't know why he feels this need. He's never been involved in any international peace negotiations anywhere, certainly never anywhere with any success, never anywhere with any prominence even.

So it's always bizarre to hear him talking, as if he's sort of been the UN Secretary General for the last 50 years. and quite scary to think he was nearly potentially Prime Minister of his country. I mean, it does beg of the question. If this had happened to us, what would his reaction have been? If he's not able to say that Hamas, after what they did on October the 7th are a terrorist organisation, what would have happened if a terror organisation

had killed 1,500 British people on our soil if he'd been running the country? Absolutely, and I'd add to that. I mean, he talks about the importance of class. and being absolutely clear on things and is very unclear on things himself. What he just said there about the Palestinians and Hamas and he and Len McCaskey talk about Palestine, for instance. What do they mean by Palestine? Do they mean the West Bank? Do they mean the West Bank and Gaza? Do they mean the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem?

What is this state? Do they mean everything on pre-1948 or post-1948? They never say. They just talk about this non-existent state that still doesn't exist. because for decade after decade, people like them have supported the worst possible elements and have encouraged them in this delusion that Israel can be disappeared. It's not going to be disappeared. And yet this delusion is encouraged, among other things, among some people in the Palestinian leadership,

which is why when they're offered 99% of a state, as they have been time and time again, they say no, because 99% isn't 100%. Well, that clip I found of Bill Clinton from a few years ago was very telling, both in his description of what Hamas do, which they're now doing, and also in the fact that he had a great settlement there, and Arafat, at the last minute, screwed him, just walked away. Absolutely. Arafat walked away, as his predecessors had walked away, time and again.

It could all be so different. It could all be so different. Just going back to what's happened in Gaza since the withdrawal. Remember, the Israelis left Gaza in 2005. It was extremely traumatic for the people of Israel because they saw members of their own army pulling forcibly Jewish families from their homes because they said that they would give Gaza over the Palestinians.

There were elections. Hamas won the elections, killed their fatal rivals, and then never had another election. How can anyone defend this group or believe they're a legitimate government of Palestine? And the idea that there any part... I tell you one thing, Pierce, it's very, very obvious when you're here

in the period after the massacres October the 7th. It doesn't matter whether you're right wing or left wing. It doesn't matter whether you're a peacock like many of the people who are murdered in the kibbutz or a supporter of Benjamin Netanyahu. Nobody in Israel believes that they can live beside Hamas. Nobody. No.

Well, why would you? I mean, Hamas are dedicated in their charter to the eradication of Israel, and they've proven, on October the 7th, they will kill as many Jewish people as they can, get their hands on. And the Hamas spokesman only last week said they want to do what happened October the 7th again and again and again. You can't do peace with people with that mentality. I was at one of the trauma hospitals earlier speaking to some survivors of the October attacks.

I was very struck particularly by one man in his, I suppose, 40s, 50s. He and his family hid in their safe room, but they didn't lock safe rooms. They couldn't lock because they were for bombs, not for Hamas terrorists coming door to door. His daughter managed to survive. He lost both his legs. He lost his wife, died in front of him and his daughter, and he lost his 14-year-old son. And after this man described what happened when his boy breathed his last,

he said, look, I'm a leftist. I've always been a leftist. Douglas, hold your thought. We're just going to come off there on the show, but we're going to carry on this for our YouTube. So one second, just stay with me. Keep it uncensored. We're going to keep with Douglas Murray.

We're going to be live on our YouTube channel now. Keep following. I'll come back to Douglas.