Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Sunak vs Starmer

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

Tonight on Piers Morgan Uncensored standing in for Piers, TalkTV's Kate McCann and The Sun's Political Editor Harry Cole speak to MP Lucy Frazer about the alleged security breach made by Home Secretary Suella Braverman. Former Tory chairman Jake Berry talks of the "danger" of changing Prime Ministers again and shares the moment he was sacked as Tory chairman by Rishi Sunak. Kate and Harry look at the backlash Foreign Secretary James Cleverly received for his advice to LGBTQ+ football fans travelling to Qatar whilst LGBTQ+ activist Peter Tatchell describes being stopped by police for protesting there. And much more... Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 526, Virgin Media 627, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Pierce Morgan, uncensored. Coming up on tonight's program. Serious politics is back, also they say, after seeing off Forrest Johnson and Liz Truss, how will Labour's Keir Stama deal with Rishi Sunak? The Home Office processed just 4% of asylum claims last year, but will the department manage to support anyone? Even Suella Braveman came back straight to her old job.

Don't ask, don't tell. James cleverly warns gay football fans. They'll have to make some compromises if they go to. to the World Cup in Qatar. Live from London, this is Pearz Morgan Uncensored with Kate McCann and Harry Cole. Good evening from London, and welcome to Peers Morgan Uncensored with me, Kate McCann and the political editor of the sun,

Harry Cole, filling in for Peers, who is still on his sunbed out in L.A., and still waiting for that call from Rishi Sunak. Well, Harry, look, both of us were in the press gallery today for PMQs. What was your take from Rishi Sunak's first outing? Well, I don't think it could have gone better for him. He had, for the first time I can remember since about 2019, the Tory bench is absolutely roaring behind him. He was polished, he was a smoothie, a complete contrast to either sort of bumbling performance.

Boris Johnson used to do or the slightly meek performance of Liz Truss. And I have to say, Kea Stama was in a bit of a pickle because he tried to throw lots of different lines at the new PM to see what would stick. I'm not sure any of them did. The only fly in the ointment, I would say, is that the appointment of Suella Braveman, I think, is going to come back and haunt Rishu Sunaq throughout the early days of his tenure. Yeah, well, let's just have a look at how Rishi Sunak dealt with the moment when Kirstehmah brought up the appointment of the Home Secretary. The Home Secretary made an error of judgment, but she recognised that. She raised the matter, and she accepted her mistake.

And that's why I would delighted to welcome back into a united cabinet that brings experience and stability. to the heart of government. There go. I mean, he's talking there about bringing experience back, but what we know, really, is that it's about party unity. And there are some people who suggest that behind the scenes, a deal was done between the two of them,

that she was always going to walk back into that job. Yeah, I thought it was quite amusing that the new Prime Minister stood on the steps of Downing Street yesterday and said he was going to be above party politics. All of that's gone away. And integrity is going to be at every single level of his government. And the first thing he does is, as you say, cut a backroom deal to a point.

To appoint the Home Secretary, who is of the right of the party. It was crucial in getting rid of Boris Johnson's attempt to come back at the weekend. And we understand tonight that senior civil servants were arguing against that appointment. So one of the first things the new Prime Minister has done, having, after all the mess of the last few years, has actually ruled gone on an issue of integrity, overruled advice and appointed someone deeply controversial. Yeah, do you think he's going to be able to get over that decision,

or is it going to dog him? He's in quite a powerful position now. And I don't think there would be many tears shared if you had to lose her one more time. Yeah, well, that question of Suella Braverman is one, of course, that came up again and again in Prime Minister's questions. And let's get the government's view on that

because joining us now from Westminster is Transport Minister Lucy Fraser. Lovely to have you with us this evening. Hi, Kate. I want to start by asking about that PMQ's session because we heard Rishi Sunak there defending his decision to reappoint the Home Secretary. But it has come up a number of times since.

Is six days enough time, do you think, when a minister has made such a big mistake, admitted to its shared cabinet-level secret documents on a private email address, to then be re-admitted to one of the top jobs in the land? Well, I think you saw the Prime Minister's position on that very clearly, and you've just done the clip. You know, she made an error of judgment, and she apologised for it. She admitted her mistake. She brought it to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary,

and she resigned. And so she had a consequence for that. But there was a new government that was appointed. And Rishi has appointed him, as he was entitled to do, in that reshuffle. And Harry mentioned about experience. I mean, I think we should remember that Suella does, in fact, have a great deal of experience.

She's been the attorney general. She was a barrister, so she's steeped in justice, and she is a good appointment for Home Secretary on that basis. All right, Lucy. It's one of the most important jobs in government. classified secret information that goes across the Home Secretary's desk, it would shock any of us. Are you really comfortable with one of your colleagues

feeling the need to email that round just to ask for advice, ignoring all the usual channels? It's completely not on, isn't it? Well, obviously, it's not my decision, but what I can tell you is that all ministers have to go through professional ethics assessments before they are appointed. They aren't appointed if that ethics assessment

throws up something. So she will, I am confident and sure, have been through the professional ethics assessment before she was appointed. Seeming to ignore senior civil servants and their advice on probity and ethics? I'm sorry, I missed that, Harry. Are you comfortable with your new Prime Minister seeming to ignore senior civil servants' advice on ethics? Well, I'm not sure what the situation is with what advice was given, how that was taken. but what I can tell you is that the Prime Minister has acted as he can do. She will have gone through that ethics assessment.

And I work with Rishi for a year, and I can tell you that from my perspective, he has integrity and professionalism in spades. Well, you said he's done what he can do, but of course he could have appointed somebody else to be Home Secretary, but let's move on, because lots of people around the country will be wondering, tonight given that the government has moved the date of the financial statement back by a couple of weeks that gives you enough time to find a way to solve the 35 billion pound black hole that you have in the public finances how do you plan to do that okay i was a minister in the treasury and as you will know and i'm sure very ministers have said to you

can't it would be inappropriate even if i knew all the details to identify what will be in the fiscal statement well all right let's try another one will you be keeping the triple law in place in that statement? Well, the Prime Minister was asked that today, and I think he answered entirely accurately. If we look at what he has done in the past, he has always been there for people who need it. We saw that during COVID with the furlough scheme.

We saw that with his energy package. It was one of the things that he identified that he was going to continue in relation to the former Prime Minister. He congratulated Liz. on her energy support. So I think he will be looking after people, but for the details of that, I'm afraid you're going to have to wait for the statement.

Lucy, a week ago, the Chancellor said the triple lock was up for grabs, potentially on the table. He was then last Wednesday overruled by the prime minister, the then prime minister, who said, actually, no, it's secure. Now, today, number 10 of the Treasury is saying that they won't make that, they won't confirm that. So should pensioners go to bed tonight, worried about what they're going to get next year or not?

Well, there will be a fiscal statement on the 17th of November. but it's not far away, and we will see all the details then. Another big issue tonight is migration. Is the Prime Minister going to have an answer for the other great debate that was going on in the previous administration a week ago about whether net migration should go up or down if it can get growth going? Where do you stand on that?

Well, the government's position is that it is really important that we do tackle illegal immigration to this country, and that's what the Home Secretary, Sir La Breaverman, is absolutely committed to, and I know that the Prime Minister is committed to that as well. But we also do need to ensure that we have the necessary skills for people who need to work in some industries here. So you're happy to see the numbers go up? I think the Prime Minister is committed to ensuring that we tackle the issue of illegal immigration. And I know that he's going to do and is committed to ensuring in particular,

particular, we tackle the issue in relation to the channel boats, crossings, where those numbers are rising, unfortunately, all the time. But let's just separate those two issues out, because what we were just asking you about was the overall number of people who are coming into the country in relation to growth. Many people say if you increase the number of people who come into the UK who take up jobs here, then that will grow the economy pretty quickly. That's something that Rishi Sunak is going to need to do, I reference back to that £35 billion. Black Hole. Are you saying that net migration should go up or down tonight? Well, there's a balance in relation to immigration, isn't it? And I know that one of the things that Rishi was very committed to when he was the Chancellor was ensuring that people here are trained in the skills that we need for those jobs. He put together his significant package of

support for employers and employees, boot camps, upskilling. He was looking at the time he was Chancellor about how we could support employers to give more skills to their employees. So I know that he will look at that as well. Thanks. And just finally, Harry's trying to let you get away too soon there. Just finally, I want to ask you about some comments that James Cleverly has made today on Qatar. He has said that people, LGBTQ people who are travelling to Qatar need to be respectful of the country's cultural norms.

Are you comfortable with what he said? Because it has upset some people. I think what James was talking about was what he was saying, and as a foreign secretary, he will be extremely acute of, because the government always raises issues in relation to human rights and people's rights with countries directly. And I'm sure he does that as foreign secretary with countries across the world. But what he was saying in addition to that was that, you know, when people do go to various countries, of course they need to respect the laws of those countries. Lucy Fraser, thank you for joining us this evening.

Well, let's bring in tonight's pack. We have the man who was the Conservative Party chairman for 50 days, Sir Jake Berry, and Lifelong Associate Editor of the Daily Mirror, Kevin McGuire. Kevin, what did you make of that? Lucy was as clear as mud. It was absolutely appalling, wasn't it? I mean, look, she doesn't know or can't say, because she doesn't want to contradict it.

Look, you look at the question of the triple lock. It was in, it was out. It was in it, it was out. It's like a hawky-coy. the appointment of the Horms Secretary after a security breach. It's not flying the ointment. It's a snarling what viler that is going to bite the prime minister. He's a huge error of misjudgment there.

He's created a problem for his own back. I mean, then she couldn't answer on migration. What is the government's position on migration? We want to go up, does it want to go down, stay the same? What is the answer? I mean, if you've come in as a new prime minister at a fresh start and you're going to restore order after the instability of Liz Truss, then it's a terrible start.

If only somebody had written a book, Harry, on Liz Trottes. We put you down as a name on that period. We can pre-order it. The link will be at the bottom. Jake, we're going to come back to you to talk about you losing your job very shortly. But, I mean, what did you make of that interview?

Because Rishu Senek is in a difficult position when it comes to his home secretary. But more to the point, some of these really big questions, we still can't get the answers to. Well, look, we heard yesterday from the Prime Minister that he's going to implement the Conservative Party manifesto. it on the steps of Downing Street. So there's good and bad bit to that, there's good and bad bit to that, Kate.

So it means that you can keep that mandate by 19 million people that Boris Johnson won. But it also means on things like the triple lock and tax rises that you can have to stick with what that manifesto said. And let's just remind everyone, no new tax rises and protection of the triple lock. And when I was advised in the former prime minister about what we do on the triple lock, I pointed out to her that, you know, everyone's so clever in the Treasury, but apparently none of them can count because you have to be able to get the right. number of Conservative MPs to go through the lobby to vote down the triple lock and I don't

think that will happen on on votes Jake one of the last actions the government you served in was to try and whip through a decision on restarting fracking in the UK that wasn't in the 2019 manifesto do you think that was a good idea well I do actually I've always been quite supportive fracking you say that even as a Lancashire MP and the reason is I don't think someone who lives in Buckinghamshire or wherever it may be in the far south somewhere should have a say over whether we have fracking in Lancashire I'm quite happy for my local residents to have their say. I think they'll all say no, but I want them to have their say. If we want to be a sovereign nation, we have to accept that we cannot be safe and

secure without being self-sufficient in terms of energy. We cannot have another situation where a hostile nation hold us to ransom. So my view is let's go ahead with fracking. I know it's not government policy, but I've come on to give you my view. Let's go ahead with fracking and let people decide. I believe in democracy. I believe in democracy. Well, it's the prime minister's decision to make, but you know, I believe in democracy. But he's sticking to the manifesto again, isn't he? Because the manifesto in 2019 said, no, fracking. And then all of the sudden, Liz Trust said, we're going to have fracking. I think you're the only person who read it.

Yeah, but I know the number of times has been broken, which is pretty frequently. I mean, the question really now for Labour is how do they counter Rishu Sunaq? Because it's the first outing today. I mean, lots of people suggesting that Kirstama tried a good game, but didn't quite manage to land a blow on the new prime minister. Well, I think he did on the Home Secretary. I think pensions, that was the SMP, but we can see there's a problem there. I think he landed below, you might say it's sly, on non-doms,

drawn attention to the Chancellor's vast wealth when he's about to make cuts on ordinary working people. And that is going to be very hard for somebody who is a 22nd richest person in the country with his wife, twice the wealth of the king, 730 million, to then be telling people on low wages. to tighten the belts. Well, Labour's got an interesting position on this

because we understand that Sir Keir Stama had told his party not to talk about Rishi Sunak's vast wealth and not to talk about the politics of envy, as it has been called. But Richard Bergen stood up today and said, you know, he's 200,000, was it, 200,000 times richer than a nurse? I mean, clearly the party is not united. He's not 200,000 times richer than Keir Starmes. No, Keir Stahmer is comfortable and questionably

because he ran the Crown Prosecution Service, was director of public prosecutions, but Rishi Sunak is the country's richest ever Prime Minister in history. Now, that would not be a problem if he was going to play Father Christmas, but if he's going to be Scrooge and he's going to be taking away your income, he's going to be running down your services, that will become a big problem for that Prime Minister. Another big row of the day, James Cleverley's comments about travelling fans, gay fans going to Qatar.

Do you think he got that right? Do you think he was, you know, should people be respecting culture? What does compromise actually mean? Yeah, well, I suppose James Cleverley, probably trotting out the line, when in Rome, do what the Romans do. But having been to Qatar a couple of times and seeing how oppressive the police can be, this is a World Cup.

If you can normally go to a World Cup, you're gay. It's not a problem. All of a sudden, I think Catar has to change here. Instead of arresting people and putting them in prison. You know, they should have been thought about before Katow was giving the World Cup. I want fans who were gay to be able to go and enjoy the football like everyone else. I understand that as a government we have to put forward quite a soft line to the Qataris, but I actually think that the organisers of the World Cup should have been much more robust.

You wouldn't like to see a minister or boycott then? Well, it's not for me to say I'm no longer a minister, but I think we're about to come on to that. Yeah, we have, look, Katoff, rightly or wrongly, is considered a big ally. They sell us gas and then buy arms. I think the government has to be very robust on human rights and the rights of people from England, Wales, anywhere else in the United Kingdom who go out with that World Cup and defend them. If you're gay, you should not be persecuted when you go out of the World Cup.

Jaybury, Kevin McGuire, thank you. Back with you shortly. Next, much, much more from Sir Jake Berry speaking out for the first time since he was sacked and with the mounting crises facing the new Prime Minister. Just how will Rishi Sunak salvage the country's economy? Welcome back to Jake Barry and Kevin McGuire

are still with us. Sir Jake Barry, you were fired after 50 days in a job we've always wanted. Must have hurts. Well, even the best things must come to an end, Harry. It's an amazing opportunity to work really closely with Liz Truss as Prime Minister. But I accept that there's two real appointments that are very close to the Prime Minister. The first is the party chairman. The second is the Chief Whip.

Unfortunately, come in and out with your Prime Minister. I'd hoped for a few more days, but it was a great privilege to have the opportunity to do it. You were with Liz Trust in those final moments in Downing Street. Some of those meetings where everything was thrashed out. What was it like in there? What was the mood like? I mean, when did she really know that it was over? Well, look, the former Prime Minister was always very chipper.

And she was a fighter, not a quitter. As I think she said to Parliament. But then she quit. I think there came a point where she realised that all the newspapers, including ones that are traditionally supportive of the Conservative Party, had really made their mind up about her. Colleagues had made their mind up about her. And there was no real way of fighting back.

and that was compounded. The straw that broke the back of the very heavily burdened camel was the chaos that we saw in the division lobby over the fracking voter. And that felt like the point of no return, it was extraordinary. But mistakes have been made long before then, even the very earliest days of her premiership. When did you realise it was going south?

Well, you know, I kept fighting. I mean, I was always the eternal optimist. And I thought, you know, I think the danger is with having changed Prime Minister now is, and I made this point to colleagues in advance of the change. It's dangerous that there are real questions out there now in the country about whether we should have a general election.

That would be, frankly, a catastrophe for the Conservative Party. And I do support Rishi Sunnaut's call to unite behind him and focus on the national interest. But I think those questions about when that election will come will get louder and louder, particularly from opposition parties. I wanted to come to that, because you were responsible for the party's membership. There was a feeling over the last couple of days that the members have been ignored, and they're the people who ultimately you're going to ask to vote for you.

I mean, do you think that relationship between the Westminster Party and the Conservative membership is, you know, can you put it back together or is it broken now? Well, look, we can always put it back together, but I think it has been severely damaged. I was a big advocate of having a member's vote. I didn't really actually like when we saw the 1922 committee, sort of all-male panel, a bit like the sort of Chinese Politburo grinning, saying there is one candidate and acclaiming that candidate. I would have really liked to have seen a competition. That's not what my colleagues wanted, and the Conservative Party was ready in short order to do an online vote, which would have delayed the process of the selection of the new Prime Minister only by 48 hours. I'm sure the members feel quite angry about that.

I'm just an ordinary member of the Conservative Party, as well as being an MP. I would have liked to have had my say because I didn't even get a vote in that election because I was sort of in charge of the election. So I think it's a pity. One person that could have avoided the talk of a general election is the man with the mandate, Boris Johnson. You backed him in 2009. Did you want him to come back this time? Well, I backed him in 2016 and 2019. I'm a long-term friend and backer of Boris Johnson,

except actually it probably wasn't the right time for him to come back. I presume he will have thoughts about coming back at some future dates. But he tried very hard, and he led a lot of people up the hill and sort of pulled the plug out at the last minute while people were still saying he'd come back on television. Do you think he's disappointed people? Boris Johnson has stood in three leadership elections and withdrawn from two of them.

It's surely done now, though, isn't it? Well, I don't know. I think people have got poor betting against the bounceback is the proverbial rubber ball keeps bouncing back. Would you vote for him again? Well, I have to wait and see. Some of the problems that were there for Boris Johnson

and for Liz Truss are still there for Rishu-Soonak. And even though your party feels buoyed by Prime Minister's questions today, the reality is it's going to be a difficult couple of months. You mentioned a general election. there. Do you think it's possible for the party to solve those issues without one now? Yeah, I do. I mean, I thought actually PMQs was the best sort of first

outing at PMQs I've seen in the whatever it is now, five Prime Ministers that I've seen on their first outing in that role. I thought it was fantastic. Look, whether we like it or not, we don't live in a presidential country. Parties get elected, parties then choose their leader and they become prime minister. I thought the interesting thing

is that no Prime Minister since 1974 has come in and out of office by a general election that's a very long time and it shows that both labour and conservatives do reserve the right to change their leader halfway through in parliament and just give us an insight before we let you go at least for this segment what was it like to be sacked how did that go down a lot i understand i've known rishi sunaka a long time i went in and he gave me a sort of speech about you know all the things i'd done which he thought were great which was nice to hear but then

ultimately you know there just aren't enough seats around the table for everyone to have a job didn't you at that point? I'd gone out to bat for the Prime Minister, both during the former Prime Minister, both joined the leadership election and in her last days in Downing Street. And as I say, it was a personal appointment. I was very personally loyal to her.

I didn't expect to continue in my role, but I do wish Rishi and his new team all the best, and I really hope they can unite and win that general election. Well, Jake Barry, we'll get more from you later on. But some of the issues that we were just referencing there are, of course, economic ones. And joining us now for more on that is economist Professor Danny Blancheflower, who today outland an alternative economic plan stating austerity is something that Britain simply cannot afford.

Lovely to have you with us, Professor Blanchevower. Of course, nice to talk to you. We've just been hearing about some of those economic problems and the fact that there is a 35 billion pound black hole to fill for the government. How would you do it? Well, let's just start and say that we've seen calming and we've seen an improvement in the and we've seen bond yields come down, but the economy is in recession. There's data we've had out in the last couple of days saying, basically, is recession coming?

We don't know how deep, and we don't know how long. And so the problem for this prime minister is going to be the data is going to determine everything. And think back to 2008. We're not that dissimilar by about September 2008. Talk was raising interest rates and trying to cut public spending. Well, the reality is you can't do that. In a recession, you're probably going to have to do exactly the opposite. You're probably going to have to cut interest rates

and you're probably going to have to increase public spending, but there's the dilemma. On the one hand, there's a call to cut spending. On the other, there's a call to basically raise it. And if you don't, that's going to be a problem because we have to talk about how are you going to cut it? I mean, if you think of the size of that number, the UK's defence budget is about £40 billion.

So if you think there's a hole in the finances of 30 or 40, well, where are you going to cut from? So that's obviously the question and the markets, they like what they've seen on the last couple of days. The question is, how is he going to cope going forward? And is he going to show the great flexibility he showed in 2008? I hope so. But this may well be a poison chalice

because the economics is going to drive the politics. Danny, can you see the new Prime Minister, Rishi Szeak, who spent a long time saying he's a tax-cutting chancellor before he became Prime Minister, could you see him in any way not having to put up taxes? Well, it's certainly not a time to put up taxes. I certainly agree with that, and I think that's probably something he's going to be able to go along with.

But the question is, how is he going to prevent the economy from collapsing? I mean, we had data this week. It's really just come this week, made clear. So we've had things called the surveys from purchasing managers, say the UK's entered recession. We've had data on retail sales and output. So the question is, does that get worse? does he respond and say, well, I'm going to have to scrap the plan that I have.

They've already put it back a couple of weeks. And the reason is they have to take stock and think, if we do this, what's the OBR going to say? Are they going to say that this is a sensible thing to do? And I think everything's on the table. We're really going to see if you try and go down the road of cutting public spending, what's the public going to say? What's the public going to do, given you're so far behind in the polls? And what's the Tory voter going to say?

They're not going to be happy about seeing collapse coming all around them. So I think we're sitting and waiting. The markets have responded positively. But each day we're going to watch and see how the data comes in and how soon that responds. I think his greatest strength is probably he's shown that he can be flexible and he's going to have to be. The problem is, though, the reality here is that by 2026, 40% of day-to-day government spending is going to be going on the NHS. That is a huge amount of money. I mean, is that sustainable?

Well, the question is, how else you're going to pay for it? Now, obviously, you ask, is it sustainable? I mean, the population is aging. How are you going to deal with it? So there are a number of things you can do. You can go use the central bank. We propose that in an article in the Daily Mirror today. I mean, the question is, what does the public want?

You can't sustain it with the current level of taxes. Somehow or other, you're going to have to pay for it. And the question is, are the public going to be prepared to do that? and will a Tory politician agree to actually raise taxes to pay for it? So that's the issue. Do you want to have a quality public service and it'll cost you more? Are you going to keep the service where you are with 7 million people waiting for operations? What are you going to do?

So there's a question. The public, in a sense, has to decide. And I assume the Labour Party and the Tory party are going to take different views on it. And in the end, the public's going to decide. But we're going to have to get through a very tough winter. and the Tories are 30 points behind in the polls, not looking as if it's going to get better. Professor Blasflow, well, I've got you.

Your critics say that you've predicted two out of the six last recessions, six out of the last two recessions, sorry. How confident are you about this one? Well, actually, in fact, in the UK, I've called the recessions more than better than anybody else. I called it in April 2008, and nobody else at the Bank of England called it. I haven't called a recession since,

and I've actually got papers where I called all five, of the last five in the United States. So I think I actually have the... I mean, you may say economics is hard and, you know, it makes astrology look good. But actually, I've been pretty darn good at it. And if you read what I said about this Trussonomics in July and August, I nailed it.

You did see that one coming. But I did nail it, didn't I? You did. I'll give you that one. Stay there, Danny. We're going to have a chat with Kevin McGuire and Jake Berry. Doesn't sound like good news there, does it? No, I remember. I remember him getting it right in 2008.

But no, look, there are no good choices if you're Rishi soon at. There's bad and worse. And there are going to be really, really difficult choices. Now, whenever he says it, I think they're going to be your choices. Is that difficult for other people? But is he really going to be able to cut spending? Is he really going to be increasing taxes? He's not in a political position to do it.

I think he'll just dig even deeper. The whole he is in, he's got to somehow hold his nerve and try and get through this. I hope the world economy improves. gas prices fall, fuel prices fall, so he spends less than he thought. Because if he doesn't increase pensions by the triple lock, and he breaks the link with benefits, universal credit, half of which thereabouts goes to working people,

he's going to just lose whatever support the Conservatives are clinging on to now. Jake, your facial expressions during that interview were a picture, I have to say, but you were frowning. I was laughing all Harry's jokes. You were having a little bit of a giggle, but you were frowning intensely when he was,

He was talking about the economy collapsing. I mean, you don't agree that we're at a very difficult point. I mean, you've got to feel great sympathy for any politician who's having to make those really difficult decisions that Rishi Sunak and Jeremy Hunt are having to make. It is very, very difficult to get conservative MPs in red wall constituencies to start voting to break the link between the pensions, the triple lock to break the link between earnings and benefits uprating. It's a really, really difficult scenario. But if, as the government has said, that they want debt to be falling as a proportion of GDP,

then they need to have a plan to grow GDP. And we've heard this evening that most of the supply-side reforms, they're going to be scrapped as proposed by the former Prime Minister Liz Truss. And if you do all of that, it's hard to see where the growth is going to come from. And then you get into this sort of death spiral of cuts. And I think that, you know, we have learned from the sort of 8, 9, 10 recession, 2010 recession, that you can't cut your way to prosperity. So we need to have a plan.

And whatever, you know, Danny Blanchfow may have said about Tristanomics and, you know, they don't work or whatever, it was at least a plan to try and grow the economy. And the final thing on tax is, look, you can't talk about being the party of low tax. If you're the government of the highest tax burden for the last 70 years. So there has to be a bit of ankle shown to hardworking households who sort of are looking, groaning under this burden of tax. We understand it can't come now, but it's got to come in the foreseeable future.

and this is the budget that really sets the tone for the next general election. It's a hugely difficult task for the new prime minister. Yeah, well, someone who clearly isn't worried about a hugely difficult economic time is Elon Musk. Just take a look at what he's just tweeted in the last few minutes. That is Elon Musk entering Twitter HQ. His tweet says, let that sink in. Yes, you can see a sink in his hands there, a man who loves a joke as much as Harry Cole does. I mean, Kevin, what do you make of that?

finalised this week, we expect. Finally, well, let's see what he does. Does that mean Trump's back on? He had speech can run... You saw him talking to the... Literally talking to the Kremlin directly on Twitter. I mean, I find it disturbing. I mean, he's a brilliant business person in some ways,

Tesla and so on, but in other ways, he is frightening. Jake? Well, look, I mean, Twist is a tough neighbourhood, isn't it? But I think we have to remember that people who spend a bit less time on Twitter, whoever owns it. I reflect Kevin's concern, but one of the great things about no longer, the only great thing about no longer being part of Chairman is the fact that I can ignore Twitter.

Well, there you go. That's one good thing at least. Well, coming up next, a wish called Rwanda. Can Suella Braverman, in her second stint at the Home Office, finally take control of the migrant crisis? Welcome back. After a quick reprieve on the back benches, Suella Braverman is back as Home Secretary, and she'll have one thing on her mind. I would love to be here saying, well, claiming victory.

I would love to be having a front page of the telegraph with a plane taking off to Rwanda. That's my dream. Well, this morning, the Home Affairs Committee heard some gobsmacking evidence. Just 4% of the migrants who crossed the channel had their asylum claims processed in the last 12 months. And 85% of those claims were waived through. 16 years after John Reid declared the department not fit for purpose,

things at the Home Office haven't got much better. Well, we're joined now by Alex Shelbrook, Tory MP, and former Defence Minister. Alec, lovely to have you with us this evening. Now, I'm sorry to say that you've lost your job in government, and we will come back to that in a moment. But I want to start off with immigration, because Suella Brewerman back at the Home Office,

that means the Rwanda policy very much back on. But some question whether or not it will work as a deterrent. So do you believe it will? Will anybody ever be sent to Rovah? Rwanda? Well, I think we've got to give this policy a go. And the reason I say that is because no other policy has worked. And equally for the people of saying, we shouldn't be doing this, they haven't come up with an alternative either. So we have a massive problem. But I do think today is shown a really important light on this discussion is that one of the biggest problems

we face is what's going on in our own country, in our own civil service. And as you rightly pointed out it's not just this government, it's been the coalition government, it's been the Labour government, it's been all sorts of governments because we go back to 2006 where John Reid rightly identified that the immigration system in this country does not work, and really

we've got to sort that out. Is Suella Braveman, the Home Secretary, to do that, Mr Shelbrook? Well, she certainly needs to be, Harry. She's on the right of the party. You played the clip of what she said at the party conference. I would expect her to sort this out. She's made it her mission to sort this out.

She's a newly appointed home secretary under a new government, which started effectively yesterday. And she's obviously made it her mission. So as in Harry Truman, the buck stops here, there, stops with her. And she has to make it work. But she equally needs to take a grip of her department in the way that John Reid 16 years ago said it should be done. Because if we are not deporting people,

you can fly them as far as you like. But really, it's just 96% of people not processed just shows that the real problem lies in Whitehall. Yeah, I'm interested that you say that, Alec, because the stats there that Harry read out, the fact that we've got billions of pounds worth of money being spent on putting people up in hotels, the conditions in those hotels not great

for the people who have to stay in them. I mean, what do you think has gone wrong and what would you like to see Rishi Sunak actually do now quickly to try and put it right? Well, Kate, let me throw a real curveball at you. I've never had this discussion with government. I've certainly had it with other colleagues, is that I would stick everything which is in the Justice Department

back into the Home Office and take everything to do with immigration out of the Home Office and make its separate department. Because clearly it's an overwhelming issue and quite frankly it needs its own Secretary of State for Immigration and the whole department dealing with just this issue. Because quite frankly, it just simply isn't working. Alex Schaubrock, thank you for joining us. Kevin, I want to bring you in on that point,

because it is a really interesting suggestion, isn't it? Do you think it would solve the problem? I don't know. I think it might just be moving people around Whitehall, and you would create... More civil servants. Yeah, you'd create instability in the short term. Look, the system's got to be made to work. There's no doubt. And I speak as somebody who's very pro-migration. I think we're enriched as a country by people coming here. But you've got to have a system that works, and that includes processing claims. And allowing people to come legally, because some of the people coming across the channel, they're i think more than half of them are allowed to stay once they are processed and once they are here but we're just trying to lock them out and use the channel as a as a moat and it's not working so jake berry you served in the government with suella braven is she the right person to fix this well let's look at the facts we are currently spending seven million pounds a day

housing people in a year housing people in no-tell we'll just think of those seats up and down the country who'd happily take two days worth of that money to really revitalize the high streets it's not working and i think we do need a new approach the The first thing I would like to see us commit to is, if you cross the channel illegally, you should be sent back to France. You shouldn't be given asylum in this country. I would like, forget planes taking off and going to Rwanda. I'd like to see ferries going from Dover to Calais, or, yeah, that way around, that's fine. David to Calais, with people who've come to this country illegally. We have a proud history of welcoming people to this country,

but there are many legal routes, and if people cross illegally, they should be sent back. On Suella Braveman, though, you were there in the government, in the bunker at the end when she was fired. Was it right that she came back? Well, six days is a long time in politics. Not like the Simbin. It's for the new Prime Minister. And he must be free to appoint whoever he wants. But look, what I would say is, from my own knowledge,

there were multiple breaches of the Ministerial Code. In fact, from multiple beaches of the Ministerial Code. It was sent from a private email address to another member of Parliament. She then sought to copy that individual's wife and accidentally sent it to a staffer in Parliament. To me, that seems a really serious breach, especially when it was documents relating to cyber security, as I believe. That seems a really serious breach.

The Cabinet Secretary had his say at the time. I doubt he's changed his mind in the last six days, but that's a matter for the new Prime Minister. And did she hold her hands up to it in that meeting? Did she admit it? Well, I wasn't in the meeting, but as I understand it, the evidence was put to her, and she accepted the evidence rather than the other way around.

Jake Barry, Kevin McGuire. Thank you very much. Still ahead, just 25 days from Qatar 2020. too and with controversy over the country's record on gay rights hotting up. Should players and fans be showing up at all? That's next. Welcome back. Now, before we talk about the World Cup, I have to show you this. Just take a look at the state of this desk. Harry Cole's side of the desk.

It's fine. Looks like a messy boy's bedroom. My side of the desk, and I did not set this up. Just look at that. Calming music, exactly how it ought to be. Yes, I'd like a little halo, that's right. But welcome back. we are heading to the World Cup now.

It's happening this winter. Now, if you are going, don't forget your passport, don't forget your tickets, and apparently, don't forget to hide your sexuality. After LGBT activist Peter Tatchell was yesterday stopped from protesting against the Gulf State's attitude to gay people, Foreign Secretary James cleverly this morning advised visitors to respect the culture of the host nation.

I have spoken to the Qatari authorities in the past about gay football fans going to watch the World Cup and how they will treat our fans and international fans and they want to make sure that football fans are safe, secure and enjoy themselves and they know that that means that they are going to have to make some compromises in terms of what is an Islamic country with a very different set of cultural norms to our own.

Well, joining us now from Sydney is Peter Tatchell himself. Good evening, Peter. What happened with the Qatari police? Did they arrest and entertain you, as you said? Talk us through it. Well, I was standing outside the National Museum of Qatar on a main busy road by a big roundabout for about 35 minutes before state security and the police arrived.

While I was protesting there, many members of the public who were passing by I was shocked and gawped in disbelief that anyone would dare stage a protest because protests are basically illegal in Qatar. When the security and police arrived, they took away the placard. They said I was not freedom leave, that I had to stay there with them. So I was basically detained in their presence on the curbside for 49 minutes while I was interrogated. At the same time, they spotted that my colleague from the Peter Tatchel Foundation,

Simon Harris, was taking photographs and went over to him and seized his mobile phone and deleted most of the videos and still photographs that he'd taken. Fortunately, he'd managed to upload some of them already so that the message, the images got out. It was very interesting and entertaining to sit. I'm just going to say the incidents caused major ructions here back in London. The foreign secretary is saying essentially that gay people should rein it in if they travel

to Qatar for the World Cup. He's a big viewer of this show. What would you say to James Cleverly tonight? Well, I was astonished and shocked by James Cleverly's statement. It was all focused on fans respecting the culture of the host nation. There was nothing in his statement

about criticizing the home nation for its violation of human rights. I was also shocked to learn that he plans to go to the World Cup. You know, this is colluding with a homophobic, sexist and racist dictatorship. That is not what we expect a British Home Secretary to do. Going to Cat off of the World Cup is like going to the Nazi Olympics in Berlin in 1936. It gives kudos to an intensely vile, repressive regime. Incredibly strong words there, Peter. What do you think James Cleverly means by respect in affecting cultural norms.

What do you think he expects people to do when they are in the country? Well, I can only assume that he expects people to conform to the way in which Qatar represses the human rights of women and LGBT plus people. In Qatar, women are not free and equal citizens. They have to get permission from a male guardian in order to marry, get certain jobs, certain jobs and to study and travel abroad. That is a total abrogation of their human rights as a female person. You know, James Cleverly should be focusing on those abuses

and not expect that female fans going to the Football World Cup have to behave in a way that denies women and LGBT-plus people the dignity and respect that they deserve. Peter Tatchell, thank you for joining us. Now, joining us in the studio, Team GB's Mark Foster, And the Times Chief Sports correspondent Matt Lawton is in Manchester. Mark, lovely to have you with us. I just want to start on those James Cleverley comments.

I mean, how does it make you feel to hear the UK government essentially saying compromise who you are? And, you know, would you be going? I suppose, as Peter mentioned it there, first of all, isn't it? Rather than stating and having to go at the way that they are in their country, first of all, it was, will respect their rules, which I kind of get in a sense. But I mean from my point of view as an athlete, I suppose as an athlete or as a footballer, when your whole career has been about representing your country and going somewhere, I don't really, I kind of don't put the onus on the athletes.

I'd like to say that they wouldn't go. But ultimately it comes down to why do FIFA put a championship there in the first place? But as a gay athlete, doesn't that mean you have to stop being who you are? I suppose, well, I'm not, well, for me, when I went to the Olympic Games, I didn't, it wasn't about what I was doing in the streets. I was there to do a job, and that was my job, so to speak. But I was never put in that position. So I never had...

And things have changed an awful lot from when I... The good thing is we're talking about this. As opposed to... I wish the World Cup wasn't there, and I wish that people wouldn't go there and do events. But they do. And it's all about money. But you're talking about the athletes so far and the politicians.

What about the fans? Do you think the fans should boycott? Is that fair on them? Well, it's going to be interesting, isn't it? Isn't there, like, no drinking policy? And we all know what fans are. So I wonder how they're going to actually contain the fans when it comes to it anyway. Does the boycott start with the fans not going?

Does the boycott start with people not watching television back at home? I mean, I love the World Cup. Will I watch it? Yeah, I probably will, just because I love the World Cup. But it's one of those situations whereby, I think unless people do make a stand, and that's what Peter did there, by going over and making a stand and doing a protest, which you shouldn't do, unless people do something, and that's always been the thing with LGBT rights,

unless someone does something that stands out and takes the flat for it, nothing changes and nothing happens. Yeah. Let's bring in Matt Laudden in Manchester. Matt, you were there that night, that day that Qatar won the bid for the World Cup. Was it a stitch-up? Well, given the people that voted on the FIFA Executive Committee, it was only a couple of years later in the same place

that they were being dragged out of the hotel with blankets over their heads by American federal officers. Yeah, you've got to say, despite Qatar's denials of any kind of corruption, it doesn't look right. We've seen on so many occasions that these major sporting events, the process by which they are awarded,

has been corrupted. And it absolutely stunk at the time. I remember standing at the bottom of the steps of the Bar-Olac Hotel in Zurich and William, David Cameron, Prince William, David Cameron, and David Beckham coming down the stairs. And you could tell they thought they'd They had it in the bag and the next day they got one vote.

So it's, look, I agree with Mark and Peter. It shouldn't be there. This decision was made 12 years ago when people like Harry Kane were still at school. They shouldn't be the ones that are punished for it. But I tell you what depresses me about it is the fact that I interviewed the head of the World Cup Organising Committee in Doha three years ago. And at that time, he was talking about an effort being. made to be more inclusive, an effort being made to educate people in Qatar, police officers and so on,

about being more understanding about people. And I got the impression then that if two men were walking down the street in Doha, during the World Cup holding hands, that people would understand that they had visitors from around the world. But now the messaging is very much that that that won't be tolerated. Matt Lawton, Mark Foster. Thank you both. much for joining us an absolutely fascinating discussion and one that will no doubt be brought into politics in the next couple of days but that is it from us tonight thank you all so much for watching what if you're doing I'm told to say make sure it's uncensored good night