Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: The Week of Trump and Johnson, Nadine Dorries, Do Man/Woman Mean Biological Sex?

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

On tonight's episode of Piers Morgan Uncensored, Piers reflects on the past week for Donald Trump and Boris Johnson. Piers is joined by TalkTV's Nadine Dorries to talk about Boris' Honours List. Piers is joined by Rosie Duffield to debate if the words "man" and "woman" mean biological sex? Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm Pierce Morgan. Unsensitive tonight. Civil War on the Conservative Party again over Boris Johnson again. Nadine Doris joined him in sensationally quitting as an MP this weekend. Exclusively, she'll tell me why. Former President Donald Trump is braced for his second arrest in three months, facing federal charges over the hoarding of classified documents which even contain nuclear secrets. Like Boris, he says it's all a witch hunt. But how much trouble is he now in? Plus, half of the England ladies' angling team quits in protest over a trans athlete from the latest gender scandal

to engulf women's sport. Parliament today held a major debate on whether the words man and woman mean biological sex. The women behind it, join me live. Live from the news building in London, this is Pearce Morgan Uncensored. Well, good evening from London. Welcome to Pierce Morgan Unsensitive.

Boris Johnson and Donald Trump are the big beast of political bull. But these two blonde bombshells of bluster now face a ferocious fight for their political lives. They've both been unraveled by the reckless breaking of laws. They clearly think applied to everyone but themselves. And they're both going down on a tailspin of temper tantions, which attempt to shift the blame to everybody but themselves. Trump now faces his second arrest in three months on federal charges

that he hoarded classifies documents at his Florida estate, even pining them up in a shower. His response, I'm the victim. It's all a witch hunt. Boris Johnson's... It's a hoax. The whole thing is a hoax. Just like Russia, Russia, Russia,

just like the fake dossier was a hoax. I'm an innocent man. I did nothing wrong. And we'll fight this out just like we've been fighting for seven years. Boris Johnson's stunning resignation from Parliament on Friday night was accompanied by a self-pitying tirade

that could have been written by Trump himself. Facing sanctions from the Privileges Committee, which has been investigating whether he lied to MPs over his law-breaking lockdown parties in Downing Street. Johnson's cry conspiracy. He called it a witch hunt, an attempt to subvert Brexit and democracy by a kangaroo court.

There's nothing really to do with Brexit. It's not a kangaroo court. Four of its seven members are Brexit supporting conservatives. They spent almost a year investigating. It's just the same old populist playbook. Denier happened, claim it's a witch hunt. When all else fails, say the whole system is poisoned against them.

Italy's former Premier, Silvio Berlusconi, who has died, was another big beast of bluster, another extraordinarily charismatic leader, but he used the very same tactics denouncing criminal charges against him as a political vendetta, a witch hunt, and working to undermine public trust in the very institutions responsible for delivering justice. Well, Boris Johnson resigned just hours after Downing Street published his resignation honours list without the names of some of his key supporters. Two of them, Nadine Doris and Nigel Adams, have joined him in quitting Parliament.

Now Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has declared war by Q. accusing Boris of asking him to intervene, presumably to get even more of his cronies on the list. Boris Johnson asked me to do something that I wasn't prepared to do because I didn't think it was right. That was to either overrule the Holak committee or to make promises with people. Now, I wasn't prepared to do that.

As I said, I didn't think it was right. And if people don't like that, then tough. Well, Boris says Rishi's talking rubbish, but as soon as he's telling the truth, and the public can judge which of them has a better relationship with the truth, is yet another attempt by Boris to subvert the rules to get what he wants. Plenty of Johnson's allies were given on us. His hairdresser becomes an officer of the British Empire.

A 29-year-old former advisor, Charlotte Owen, becomes a life peer. Somebody no-one's ever heard of, permanently ennobled by a Prime Minister who left office in now Parliament in shame and disgrace. And north of the border, another big beast of British politics, Nicola Sturgeon, is refusing to step aside from a Scottish nationalist, National Party that she once led. She suspended SMP members for much less serious things than the police investigation into party finances

that she's now embroiled in. Yesterday she was arrested in quissed by police for nearly eight hours, but she remains in the party. Once again, one rule for you, another for them. But maybe the golden age of big beasts and their bull might just be coming to an end. Well, joining me in the... It's the seem to be former Conservative MP

for Mid-Bevishire, Nadine. Well, Nadine, I wouldn't have expected you to agree with much of that. No, none of it actually. So let's take that as red. All right, this is the first interview you've given since this all blew up. So let's just cut to the quick here. When Rishi Sunak, the British Prime Minister, says that Boris Johnson tried to get him to effectively circumnavigate the rules about the honours, including yours, is he telling him a truth? So he's using something which I think they're called sophistry, which is using a language and words in order to deceive. What Boris Johnson actually asked him to do was to ask Colette to do the revetting,

which required to be done in peace. Now, can I just explain why that's important? So every six months, a re-betting has to place. Well, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what. Let's make this easy for the viewers, who aren't up to speed on all the nuances. Let's go back to the beginning. Yes. Boris Johnson tells you when that he's intending to make you a baroness. When does he have that first conversation? Oh, that was age ago.

That was back in the autumn sometime. It was a private conversation. You're not allowed to talk about it afterwards. It's a private conversation to say that I'd been put on his resignation on his list. To be a Baroness? Yeah, that's what it is when you go into the Lords. Okay, and what was your reaction to that? How did you feel about that?

Well, it's quite emotional, actually, because I never, you know, I've always revered the House of Lords. I think it's actually a place where I know a lot of people criticise it and make fun of it almost, but it's a place where all the heavy lifting of the scrutiny of bills actually takes place. The Commons has become this like this set piece theatre for Prime Minister's questions and for other big pieces. But actually, we're all the heavy lifting. Where it's stuffed full of people with expertise and wisdom and knowledge, it's the Lords.

And so it's a kind of place you look at in... Well, there are a lot of old useless duffers there as well. There may possibly be, but I couldn't comment. but there's also a lot of like really serious heavy lifting goes on that. And it is a place that, you know, God, like for me, from my background, no one would ever have dream that someone from my background could get. People who don't know your background, why do you say that? So I was born in a place called Breck Road in Liverpool,

which I think is probably classified as one of the poorest streets in the country, not just in Liverpool, one of the poorest awards. And, you know, it was most of my life, you know, the first. almost 30 years of my life were very tough. It was financially very, very hard. I literally, it sounds like something like a Dickens novel, but I literally had to borrow shoes to go to school. I literally know what hunger pains feel like.

And you know, I've born a long time ago. I was born in 57, the 60s went great for, you know, in the early 70s for surviving. And there wasn't a benefit system or, you know, the safety net that there is today for people. So it was pretty tough. And to think that, you know, I didn't even know what a university was. I didn't know that universities even existed.

It was just something that the House of Lords, I wouldn't have known if you'd ask me a 21, you know what the House of Lords, I wouldn't even have known what it was. So to be told that you're being put on a list, to be nominated to go into the House of Lords, it's just like, it's unbelievable. And for me, it was so important because,

you know, I did this a lot when I was Secretary of State in DCMS. It was all about making sure that ladders were put down into those backgrounds to give people opportunities to work in the arts and culture because they don't now. because the kind of people who do work in arts and culture, who are those that went to independent school or, you know, whose dad's a producer or whatever.

So for me, it was kind of, that's the next stage, you know. If I go into the Lords, it actually sends a signal to other people. Doesn't matter where you come from, doesn't matter what you're born to, it doesn't matter how poor you are, if you can get there. You know, I call it the class ceiling

or the class ceiling where I come from. I wanted to break that ceiling. Okay, so it means a lot to you. Yeah, cute. Clearly, I can tell that, right? means a lot to you. But I would imagine serving your constituents as a member of parliament also means a lot to you. Yeah. And it's one of the great, the great honours that anyone can have in this country to be an elected official representing your constituents. So that then will obviously be an

inevitable question to come. But from that moment, Boris Johnson tells you that's his intention. Do you just assume it's going to happen? So what I thought was, I expected someone to contact me and talk to me. I thought it might be Holak, who's the House of Lords? What's the normal procedure? So, well, there is this is why I couldn't, there is no normal procedure. I couldn't find this out. The normal procedure I've discovered is that Holak...

So who is Holak? House of Lords appointment Commission. Right, so they... And they had the right to approve or disapprove? No, they have no right to approve or disapprove. So this rhetoric which has been coming out of Downey Street is that the House of Lords did not approve. It's absolutely nonsense. They don't have that. It's not their mandate. So, Boris's list goes into number of

number 10, number 10 hand it over to Holak. Holak do the vetting, that's police checks and HMRC checks, then they hand that list back to number 10, number 10, then hand that list over to the king. So what happened was, Holak said to number 10, this MP needs to take a public announcement that she will stand down within six months

of being put back to you on this list. Nobody from number 10 communicated that to me. Boris found out about this and had a meeting with Rishi last week. Six months had elapsed since the vetting had been done. Why Downing Street waited six months, I've no idea. Six months elapsed, Boris said to Rishi Shunak, you just need to ask for the revetting,

which would take a matter of days. Rishi used very weasel words. He said to Boris Johnson, and that's the only thing Boris asked him to do. He said to Boris, whatever list Holak sent back to me, I will sign off. Boris left that meeting with the impression that James Fulcith who is Zunat's political secretary was going to ask for the revetting for the list to come forward and then Rishi would sign it off but of course Rishi was using those words because he knew a situation had been engineered i.e. the information Holok had not been not been communicated to me and therefore my name would not be on the list because I hadn't done what Holokk asked number 10 to ask me to do because nobody had asked me to do it.

The whole lack of it had been known that they did not support some of the people put forward. So they couldn't because they couldn't support the people who'd been put forward because we hadn't done what had been asked of us. But that's the only reason that they wouldn't support it. It wasn't a failure of any of the vetting. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And there were six people on this list. So this sounds like a sort of murder mystery plot that you'd have at a friend's dinner party.

Who's the murderer here? Who has stopped you, Nadine Doris, from joining the House of Laws? Do you believe? The Prime Minister. Ritchie Sunak? Rishishish Sunak. You think he personally intervened? Well, he...

So very cleverly, of course, not. His political secretary, James Forsyth would do the heavy lifting, the not passing the message on, not doing what Holak asked. It was James Forsyth, but obviously James Forsyth works. I mean, James Forsyth is Rishy Sunat's best friend.

He was his best manate. Yeah, but you're saying that number 10 directly intervened to stop you... What they did... Joining in the House of Laws. What they did... That's what you're saying, right? Yeah.

What they did was not. not pass on the information from Holak, which was she has to announce that she will stand down within six because you cannot be an MP and sit in the house. You can't be in two houses. You can't be in two legislatures. Did you not know that rule? Yes, they knew, but what we'd been told via back channels was that don't cause a by-election. There will be a solution.

Something's going to be found. That's what I was being told by the Cabinet Secretary and Backchannels. So the Cabinet Secretary said to you is all going to be fine? The cabinet secretary, this came up with a plan originally with another cabinet secretary, that there would be a system that was put in place, Ruth Davidson, an asterisk system, which meant we could go on the list and we would stay there until a general election. We found out that suddenly that wasn't allowed, and then that's when things, that's when I began to get suspicious, started asking questions, was met with a wall of silence,

and then Boris Johnson also began to think something's not quite right here. That's why he asked the meeting with Rishishishina. Number 10, I know why they did this. They did this because they wanted to avoid a by-election. If they'd worked with me, we could have had this by-election, a time which was suitable to them, maybe after the autumn statements come out when hopefully there'll be some good news.

We could have worked together, but instead... Did Rishishishanak lie to Boris... Put up a wall of silence and stopped it happening. Did Boris Lye... Did Rishishishunet lie to Boris Johnson in their meeting? So what I've said to you is he used... sophistry, some very clever words. I will sign off whatever list Holak give to me,

knowing full well that my name was not... and mine and other names were not on that list because they had engineered that those names were not on that list by not informing us the request made by Holack to number 10 informing us what we needed to do... Are you sure Boris Johnson didn't take you off that list? 100%. It wouldn't be the first time he's stiffed people.

No, I don't think that's true. Well, it is true. Well, I don't believe it is. I clearly speak as my experience of Bryce Johnson and those I know, and it's a very positive experience. You're certain that he wouldn't have taken you off the list? Absolutely certain. Absolutely certain.

Boris, I mean, for one of a better phrase, threw his toys out of the pram after all this happened. Some say you did too. You appeared on Talk TV. No, I didn't. Well, I'm going to play you a clip from Talk TV. This is before the news breaks. This is what you said to Mike Graham.

last thing I would want to do would be to cause a by-election. Something significant did happen to change my mind, and I did do, and I think it's for the best. And literally hours later, you quit and provoking bi-ellection. Because something significant did happen. And that there were two significant things that happened. The first was that I realised, via a number of conversations, what had happened. And the reason why I realised what had happened was a phone call was made to some on a time on case on Thursday evening

and he was told, no, to an aide at Boris's office. The cabinet's agent? He was told, yeah. He was told no, everything's fine, her name's on the list. I phoned, Boris phoned the next morning. I phoned the next morning. We were told I spoke to the Chief Whip shortly, actually. So Thursday, the Cabinet Secretary confirms your name is on the list.

Thursday night with an aide from Boris's office. So what could have happened between... I'm just about to tell you. Okay. So I spoke to the Chief Whip in the morning and he said, no, everything's fine. Friday morning. The list was announced at 4 o'clock on Friday afternoon. I spoke to the chief whip on Friday morning. He said, no, no, everything's fine. Everything's fine. He said, let me go make some inquiries and I'll get back to you. He got back to me 30 minutes before the list was published and said, actually, you're not on the list. 30 minutes before it was published.

And you found out from a journalist. I found out from Steve Swin from the Times on Thursday night, and I didn't believe him. I thought he was lying to me. And I was cross with him. I said, Steve, why are you doing this? You know, and I thought to myself, why isn't he just finding out the evidence for this story properly? Someone is doing this to find it up. You think the motivation for what Downing Street you believed did in stopping you getting this honour

is that they didn't want to trigger a by-election, which is pretty ironic given is actually triggered three by-elections. It's pretty stupid, actually. Not ironic, it was pretty stupid. If they thought they were being clever and avoiding by-election, by-elections, by-elections, by-elections. But they deny all this. I'm thinking that they could play.

Well, of course, they'd go. going to deny it. Are they lying? They are not telling the truth. So they're lying? Well, they're not telling the truth. They're not telling the truth. But the Prime Minister said... There were two points. They're not playing. He's going to bring integrity back to public life in number 10. He's certainly not doing that. He's certainly not doing that.

Do you believe Rishi Sunak is lying about this? So there are three points. There are three issues that number 10 have lied on. They've lied on the fact that they denied the meeting with Boris Johnson even took place to begin. They denied a journalist and then accepted they had to acknowledge the meeting did take place. Then they lied and said, that we were on the list and everything was absolutely fine. They gave the impression to Boris Johnson that they were going to ask for the revetting

and that my name and others would be on the list and it would be signed off. The lies were told in a number of ways. And what I don't understand is the stupidity of it. And I've written about this in my column on the Daily Mail tomorrow I put a timeline down about what actually happened. What I don't understand is the stupidity of this and the psychodrama creation of it.

And the one point I would make is, you know, there were lots of criticisms about what happened under Boris Johnson about the dramas that are compared to number 10. Well, here's another one under Rishi Sunak. And the entire time that the dramas were occurring in number 10 while Rishi Sunak was number two, working teeth, cheek by jowl with Boris Johnson. Let me ask you, all right, let me ask you on wider point.

Should somebody who's been prime minister and has had to be forced out of office in disgrace, you may or may not agree with why, but that was the reality, should they be entitled to have a resignation and honours this. Many people, I'm one of them, think that any Prime Minister who has to quit in dishonourable circumstances

should abrogate the right to have an honourerisist. I'm not passing judgment on you getting one or any others, right? I'm just saying, I don't think that that is good for the system. So, you know, if there had been a shred of evidence to justify the findings of the Privileges Committee against Boris Johnson, if they had...

Well, there is a... There's more than a shred. No, there isn't, peers. There is not a shred of evidence. So a privileges community, hang on, which has seven people on it, four of whom are Eurosceptic Brexit-supporting conservatives. You're saying they set out to destroy Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister who won a big majority, and delivered Brexit. You think that that's a realistic scenario. Now, I think that's a very simplistic scenario that you've presented.

Well, it's a fact. Because it is, well, it is not actually because what takes place is that that committee, it's under scrutiny under a huge amount of public scrutiny. There are many events that have taken place that have been wrong with that committee. For example, the submissions by Sue Gray, who we just happened to know was working with Labour at the time, who we just happened to know employed a QC,

who was a massive Labour supporter. Boris Johnson indisputably attended parties in number 10, breaking his own rules. That's why the Privileges Committee made the conclusions this made, which clearly when Boris read them, He decided it was so bad he had to quit immediately. Pierce, I regard the police as a higher authority. They find him.

They find him and Rishi Sunak. Right, but they find Boris. Rishish Sunak should be driven out of Parliament because he was fined as well. Well, have you read this report by the Privileges Committee? No, I haven't. Right, so you don't know what it says. So you're convinced just to stitch up, you haven't read it.

I know the facts. And I know the facts that they're working on. No, you know what Boris told you. If you're saying that Boris Johnson... What Boris says in the word fact are two different things a lot of the time. Well, again, we are never going to agree on that. Well, you think he's always told the truth? If Boris Johnson has been driven now to Parliament

for having sat at his desk and not eaten a piece of cake, when people he was working with all day in the same offices came into that room to wish him happy birthday, if you think that is the basis for driving him out of office, I think it's more than that. I think it's more that there were the karaoke parties on the night before. No, he wasn't allowed. It's his home.

No, it's not his home. He was in checkers. It's his home. No. Well, so again, that's correct to point there. It's Rishi who lives above number 10. Boris lived above number 11 next door. It was Rishi's home. It's Boris's office during the day, but it was actually Rishi's home.

Are you actually going to quit as an MP? Yeah, I've resigned. There's no way back. Some people think you may change your mind that you were being a bit hot-headed. No. You ever formally resigned here? You haven't let me explain to you the significant thing

that happened to change my mind to make me resign. It was the sheer audacity of the Chief Whip thinking that at my age, after having worked in Parliament for 21 years, serving 18 years on the backbenchers, having been a minister during COVID-in-health, having been a Secretary of State, that he can dangle out to me some kind of stick and carrot,

like be a good girl, and we'll make sure something's sorted for you in the future, which is basically what he was saying to me. That, for me, at that moment, was what made me change my mind, made me make my decision to reply. How upset are you now not getting this honour you assumed you were going to get? Not joining the House of Lords, not being Baroness at the end of all this? Do you know what? I'm broken-hearted, not just for me, but for everybody who comes from a background like mine,

who in today's world don't have the ability to climb ladders that they used to have years ago, who struggle to aspire because they feel that it just isn't worth being aspirational, it isn't worth working hard, because they see others from different backgrounds who take the spoils. And it kind of breaks my heart because that's what this story is. This story is about a girl from Brecker Road to Liverpool, who worked every day of her life since she was 14 years old, had something offered to her for that.

People from that background don't get offered, removed by two privileged posh boys who went to Winchester and Oxford and taken away duplicity and crawley because they have known for months that it wasn't the case. And yet, they let me, and they let Boris Johnson continue to believe that was the case.

It was upsetting, and it's upsetting for everybody who thinks that one day they could be that person because, you know what, if you come up against someone like Rishi Sunak and James Forsyth from privileged backgrounds who have it all very easily given to you, them on a plate, you're in trouble. You won't make it because they can do whatever they want to stop it. There are a lot of people who would say exactly what's happened. There are a lot of people

who would say exactly the same about your mate Boris, that you won't get anyone who's been more privileged than him or who went to Eaton, who has glided effortlessly through life, trampling on people. People say, he's on the bones of his backside most of his life. You had no money. I'm sure he's been on the bones of his backside most of his life. Had no money. Went to Eat at a scholarship. Pears, you cannot make that comparison. What's what I say about Boris. I like him personally. Always have done, right? But I think the way he has run the country has been a disgrace. And that's why he's got his comeuppance. And when this report comes out, maybe even as soon as tomorrow, you will read it and you might be surprised about what they unlearthed. It wasn't a witch hunt. It wasn't a stitch up. Why would it be? Four of the seven on the committee are distinguished conservatives who voted for Brexit. I'll tell you why it would be because one of the main contributors

to that report was Sue Gray who's now gone to work for Kirstov and who wants Boris gone out of Westminster more than Rishi Sunak Kirstama does. We'll never agree for that. Okay, final question. Kirstama's the winner in all this. You forcing a... You handing him

a by-election which they will now probably gang up with the Lib Dems to win. How does that help your party? My party isn't helping itself. No, but why are you knifing the party? I've got life in the party. In a way you are. No, Pearce, I think you come to a point in life when you have to stop,

when you can't just be pushed around, when you can't allow people to bully you, as I've just been bullied by number 10, you can't allow that to happen. You have to stand up for yourself, and that's what I did. It's a painful decision. When I said to Mike in the morning, I did not want to cause a by-election.

I've loved serving. It's been the greatest honor for my life to serve mid-Bevertshire for 18 years. Leaving it in the lurch like this to go through this by-election and was not what I wanted. You said a moment ago about what an honour it is. When my majority was 24,600, when those people, 38,000 people went out and voted for me at the last election. Those people went out and put their cross next to my name.

But that is the biggest... And they'll be watching... And they'll be watching... And they'll be watching... Well, why have you abandoned this? I think they'll understand. Really? Yeah, I think they'll understand.

And I think they'll think we wouldn't let anyone do that to us either. Nadine, thank you for coming in. I appreciate it. Unsensor next tonight. Donald Trump has arrived in Florida ahead of a court appearance tomorrow on charge of the mishandling documents. His Trump toast will debate that next. Welcome back to Pittsburgh and Unsens.

I'm joined by the talk to you contributor to Esther Crackler, the Associateds of Daily Mirror, Kevin McGuire, and the magician and Vegas legend. Angelette. Welcome to Pierce's pack. Thanks. Did you have any idea what that interview was all about? Not a clue. I get the idea that you people think

that some politicians deliberately mislead other people. Isn't this shocking? I never heard of the United States. You could never imagine such a thing. Never, never. You know, the United States, we've had nothing like that. Kevin, it was actually a very interesting interview in many ways. Who do we believe here?

Yeah, Nadeen Dory's clearly feels led down. I think she's been led down by Boris Johnson as well as Rishi Sunak. Rishishish Sunak didn't want a by-election, so he didn't want it to have a peerage. That would trigger it. But I think Boris Johnson's misled her. he wanted Sunak to overrule the House of Lords Committee. You don't do that. Could it be internal number 10 skull duggery, as she suggests,

to make sure that her name and several others got removed to avoid any potential for a by-election? I mean, we've seen worse things happen at Downey. Oh, yeah. Not least the hands of Boris. Yeah, I think that's been a factor because eight names were removed. Whereas Paul Daga, the editor-in-chief of the Daily Mail. Others weren't on it.

I've known this to happen before, but at the same time, Boris Johnson is over-promised by trying to give 15 peerages. You were never going to get that. I mean, Esther, my problem with all this, I don't think a dishonoured prime minister who's left in disgrace should be allowed to give any honours to anybody. I mean, if you start from that central premise, I actually felt quite sorry for Nadine. When she tells the story of her own life and what it actually would have meant to become a baroness, it's quite moving on a human level, right? I got it. She's clearly very upset about this. I get that.

But on the other hand, I don't think any of them should have got honours at the hands of Boris Johnson after everything he did. Well, the thing is, if we disqualify what we consider a dishonest

prime minister from being able to hand out these privileges, then you can call other prime ministers minister into question. I do think it calls the entire honour system into question. I do think we should scrap it

because at this point, it's just ridiculous. I agree. Scrab it to start again, but let's remember Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, as far as I can remember, but didn't have resignation honors list.

And if there's a big row of a Johnson's, wait until we have Liz Trusses. I mean, the idea, 49 days, I think there's like four peerages. The idea that Liz Truss, after 44 days was it? Yeah, 49 in all, I think. Right, in office, gets to give an honor out in her name. It makes a mockery of the system.

It's a complete far. Yeah, like awards of lifetime lawmaking to our cronies. I think there's four being promised, like. I can't the like the life. I'm going to say, she's going to make some news with some of that stuff. particularly some of the things she said about Ritchie Soonak. I mean, this is not going to go away. This is the Tory party ripping itself apart.

The question is, can they basically carve off this element, the Boris and his acolyte element to one side, and power on? Perhaps they can. Yeah, well, that's a strategy, but you've got three by-elections. They're all going to be tricky. Yeah. They're probably lose them all, actually. Well, they will definitely lose them all,

but they have enough of a majority. I want to bring in the magician. Yes. By magic, we're now going to turn to your country, because we're going to make ourselves feel better by talking about Donald Exactly. We may have a person running for president from prison. By the way, you know the craziest thing about that? He's allowed to do it. I know. We already have that happened under the U.S. Constitution.

Not only can Donald Trump run for president if he's convicted of a federal crime of the ones he's been accused of, but actually he could be imprisoned and still serve as president. He could serve as president in prison, yes. Can you imagine him? This is the greatest cell that any president. ever been incarcerated. This is the greatest... I am the greatest felon in the history of the White House.

I come to you tonight. You imagine it was a serious event? I come to you tonight from cell four or five, six. It's ridiculous. This may all sound ridiculous. This could happen. So let's bring in an expert. Donald Trump's former lawyer, Alan Dershowitz.

One of the smartest legal brains I've probably ever encountered. Alan makes some sense of all this. We're sitting here across the pond. in the United Kingdom. And it seems to us utterly insane that somebody can now be indicted on one case involving

hush payments to a porn star, now indicted federally on what appear to be far more serious charges under the Espionage Act involving classified documents. He's heard on tape boasting are not declassified. Put some meat

on this rumour mill bone about all this. Where is Donald Trump now? Where is he legal? The first case is a joke, the New York case. They made up facts. They made up law. He won't be convicted, and he shouldn't be convicted.

The second case, the federal case, much more serious. They have his own words and the words of his lawyers making incriminating statements. It is certainly possible he could be convicted. The Constitution does not, as you say, preclude him from running as an indicted or even convicted or even imprisoned person. I doubt he'll be imprisoned, but it's certainly possible. We have a strange situation here. We have a situation where Trump was targeted, perhaps even illegally. They went after him in order to try to focus on him and him alone, but they succeeded as the result of unlawful actions of targeting him with his own cooperation. They came up with

evidence on tape that may very well be enough to convict him. Now, is it okay to convict somebody if you've improperly targeted him, but the targeting resulted in evidence of real crime? For example, if this were in the South, if this were a racist prosecutor in the 1930s who said, I'm only going to investigate crimes committed by black people, not white people, and he investigated and found a crime committed by a black person, would we say it's okay? to prosecute it. Maybe now this is different. This isn't race. This is politics and politics is different. But there are troubling aspects of this case. They've used the words of his own lawyer against him. The judge's rule that he violated the lawyer-clined privilege. It's a complicated case.

If I was still teaching at Harvard, as I was for 50 years, I'd be using this as a case study on the problems with the legal system. And I'll hold with us. We're going to take a short commercial break. Penn. I can see you chomping at the bit. You will be allowed to come off that bit. Okay. And give me your view after the break. Welcome back to Piers Morgan on Sensor. We'll be in the studio. Let's talk to the contributor to Esther Cracker,

Associates of Mirror, Kevin McGuire. The brilliant magician. Probably the more handsome half of Penn and Teller. He would say that. I wouldn't say that in front of Teller, obviously. They're performing at the Hamas with Apollo in London from tomorrow until Sunday. It's a brilliant show.

These guys are the best, the best magicians in the world. So let's go see that, give us a treat. Alan Dersers are still with us. So Penn, you were chomping at the bit that to get in on what Alan was saying. Why? I did not teach at Harvard. I am not a lawyer, but I am a liar, and I am a magician. I mean, that's what we do.

And it sounded to me, and what didn't I understand here, Mr. Dishu, it sure seemed like you were saying, yeah, he was doing stuff wrong, but they were trying to catch him. As soon as you become president, as soon as you become any sort of public figure, everybody's trying to bust you all the time. I mean, that's actually, okay, let's bring Alan back in. that's a very good point. Donald Trump is not a regular person. He's a very controversial president

who's already been indicted by New York State on another issue. He's facing other huge legal issues involving January 6th, the riots of the Capitol, involving the phone call to Georgia and so on. So this is a guy already smothered in legal jeopardy. Why shouldn't they be going hard after him? Well, that's exactly why I wrote my book called, shameless plug. That is the most shameless plug I've ever seen. I can be a magician. I can be a magician too.

I can pull rabbits out of a hat. I wrote a whole book on why there has been a campaign to get Donald Trump. Look, I'm not a Trump supporter. I voted against him twice. I have a constitutional right to vote against him a third time and I intend to, but I don't want a bunch of prosecutors

to prevent Americans from voting for him or against him. Well, they won't. He shouldn't be there to. He shouldn't be compared to every ordinary person, but he should be compared to Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Vice President Pence, Sandy Berger, others who have allegedly committed comparable crimes. And if what we're seeing is an attempt to target him uniquely by the Democratic administration because he is the cheap Republican who's going to be running against the incumbent Democrat, it better be a very strong case. But he's not being stopped from running. I'm going to say, I got to say, I saw Maggie Haberman from the New York Times say this was the most compelling indictment. She thinks she's ever read.

She also said that. She also said similar things about the New York case. Yeah, but William Barr, William Barr, his former Attorney General. He said the same thing. I think this is a strong case. The question, is it a strong enough case? I had a piece in the Wall Street Journal today. Is it a strong enough case to warrant going after?

a man who's running for president. Remember, we're going to have to have a trial. The trial will be a year from now. Right in the beginning of the conventions, will he be tried during the election, after the election? It has to meet a very high standard. I call it the Nixon standard. The Nixon standard is he destroyed evidence.

He bribed witnesses. The evidence was so clear that the people who wanted him out of office were his fellow Republicans. We haven't seen that because there's been this history of arguments. As always, we all bow to your expert legal brain, because it's one of the great legal brains in the world, so we appreciate it. I wanted to slightly change gear to, we'll say goodbye to Adam,

thank you very much. I just want to bring in the issue of Nicola Sturgeon, the recently departed, First Minister of Scotland, Esther. I mean, this is a shattering blow. Another British political leader who spent eight hours with the police at the weekend under arrest over this financial skullduggery,

which allegedly also involved. her husband, who was the CEO of the party. I mean, what is going on here? I mean, her situation, I think, is actually worse because she's married to the man, right? There's no way you can tell me in sort of the decade or so that they were, well, all this was stupid. And 600,000 pounds has just disappeared.

Exactly. You can't say that she didn't know anything. And I think the idea that she somehow still has a place in the party is completely ludicrous to me. I can't believe she had... Well, she made a lot of people for lesser offences, in my opinion, stepped down, Kevin. Surely she has to be suspended, sure. Yes, she does.

But of course, her successor, Ahumza Yusuf, is a continuity sturgeon candidate for First Minister, and he's not applied the rules she was applied to others when MSPs were suspended. No, the downfall of Nicola Sturgeon, she protests her innocence is the fastest and most dramatic I can remember in my time in politics. But, Kevin, politically, this is also a massive boost for Kea Stama.

All this stuff, the Tory infighting, The downfall of the SMP, right, you put it all together. This is Christmas come early, the Kirstime. No, it is. All the cards are falling in his favour. And I didn't think Labour were in with a chance of winning with a substantial majority. I'm now having to wonder if they could be, because in Scotland it is such a big boost for Labour.

You get to 12 or 20 seats there. It's worth a couple of points on the national port. I want to bring in you to talk specifically about UFOs and aliens in Las Vegas. And I'm only half joking. A whistleblower has come forward called David Grouch. He's an Air Force veteran claims he's viewed evidence of a UFO crash retrieval program secretly run by the US.

Apparently, a lot of this stuff's been spotted around Nevada, where you have obviously before. What do you make of this? Well, you know, we have to remember that the U and UFO is unidentified. It is not alien. There's a big difference. I mean, there are things unidentified in my refrigerator. that definitely they're of alien.

There are some alien things in your refrigerator. I just, I mean, I don't understand that at all. The science really says that just in terms of distances, are you saying you can move hundreds of millions of light years and then you crash in the desert? But is it likely that we're the only people in the entire galaxy? No, it's very, very, very unlikely. It's very, very unlikely, but it's also very unlikely

we could ever find out. You know, there's, if you're talking about 100,000 millions of light years, you can't get the message out and back at the same time. Also, we are also assuming that life on another planet would want to talk to us. There's a lot of assumptions. I would imagine, it was a big bored.

I'll tell you what, if they do, if they do come down, why don't we just give them Boris Johnson and Donald Trump? We thought about this, and as a planet, this is our offering. All right. Take them and off you go. 100 million light years away. Guys, thank you all very much. Love it to see you. Great to see you. And have a brilliant few dates at Hamasville Apollo.

It is a fantastic show. They are the best magicians of the world. Go see them. Hamstis of Apollo until Sunday, starting tomorrow. If there are any tickets, that. I don't know if they're up. But maybe not. But great to see.

Thanks, Pat. On says the next MP stage of major debate on whether man and woman should be legally defined by biological sex. The woman behind it, tell me, why next. Welcome back to Piersboggana sense and half of England ladies' angling team is quitting protest after a trans woman was selected to join the squad for a major competition. The trans angler, a former rugby player, was the only member of the team to catch any official

competition earlier this year, a competition that relied on physical strength. Elsewhere in gender identity madness, controversial male to female trans cyclist Austin Killips won a competition in the US this week by five minutes. Throttling her biologically female challenges in a grueling a 137-mile race. The question of defining men and women. To extend a stage in Parliament today at a major debate in Westminster Hall, MPs have been debating the legal definition of sex after a petition signed by 110,000 people.

The petition started by the Sex Matters campaign asked the government to change the Equality Act, make it clear that in UK law, sex means biological sex and not sex modified by a gender recognition certificate. They say the debate's not about transphobia, but about assuring women about their rights, safety, And fairness, well, I'm joined by the founder of Sex Matters, Meyer Fulstata, and Labour MP and Women's Rights campaigner, Rosie Duffield has just taken part in the debate.

So, Rosie, let me start with you. You've just taken part in this debate. How did it go? Is common sense prevailing? I think so, Pears. It felt like it. There were far more speakers who wanted the Equality Act clarified than there weren't on the other side who thought it should just be left as it is. I mean, the thing is, Maya, you've obviously been involved in this today as well.

You read this story about the England female anglers team, that half of them have felt the need to resign, because a biological male, now a trans woman, has come in and has obvious physical advantage, which allows that person to beat biological females. It's as clear as night and day how unfair this is. Do you feel you're winning this battle to have this kind of thing recognized as wrong?

Yes, I think we're winning the battle both because sports women like the anglers are taking a stand, that's really important, but they shouldn't have to do that. The law should be clear. It's the law that allows you to have all women sports because that's fair. And individual sports women shouldn't have to, you know, give up their career or worry about their career just for standing up for what's fair. So we had the MPs in Parliament today talking about the Equality Act,

which is ultimately what protects all sports, single-sex services, hospitals, women's refuges, everywhere where you can say, no men allowed here, is governed by the Equality Act. And to have the MPs focus on women's rights and say they're willing to talk about what the definition of sex is and potentially clarifying it in the law, which would then mean that these women like the anglers

don't have to put themselves on. I mean, Rosie, Rosie, both you and I have both been abused, vilified, shamed, branded, transphobic and so on, simply for, in my estimation, standing up to protect women's rights. You must have felt quite lonely at times this battle. Do you feel like more women are now joining the cause in particular? Yeah, it did feel this time that the debate was more balanced, kind of on our... I have, like you said, often felt like I'm... I'm the only voice, especially on the Labour side, and that's pretty emotionally exhausting,

when all I read about myself is defamation and lies and names, and it's, yeah, it's not fun all the time. Maya, for you too. I mean, it's a brutal business poking your head over the parapet to debate this, isn't it? Absolutely. I lost my job for it. I was working at a think tank where you'd think you'd be able to think about things, and I lost my time. Well, you can if you think the right way. Well, exactly, exactly. And it's been a four-year legal battle, just to get justice for losing my job. So, yes, it's been tough. But there were so many women in the chamber watching today. I think the MPs must be.

I feel on this issue that the woke worm is turning. I feel like common sense is beginning to prevail, that there's a really concerted fight back now from people saying, yes, it's fine to respect trans rights to fairness and equality. I completely sign up to that. But the moment it starts to erode. women's rights to fairness and equality and safety.

That's where I have a problem. Absolutely. Four years ago, you weren't able to say that. Four years ago it was only about trans rights, whereas now we're able to say this is about fairness, it's about equality, it's about dignity and privacy and everyday services, and it's about being able to speak the truth.

Everyone knows what sex people are and what sex they are and shouldn't have to lie about that in order to keep their job. Well, Rosie, I think Keir Starmer's now up to saying that 99. something percent of women don't have a penis. I think that's his latest stat. Are you confident we may get him to 100%?

That would be really good, because no woman I've ever met, no biological woman has a penis. I mean, that's pretty much the definition, isn't it, of a biological male. And what's important, we joke about it, What's important is that rape is obviously an offence caused by mostly male penises. So we do need to be absolutely clear and signal to women that we understand the importance of language. Are you being welcomed by more of your party now?

Are you still a pariah? I'm definitely still a pariah, I'm afraid. I mean, there are societies within labour, like the LGBT Labour group and people like that who absolutely hate me and won't stop until they've got my scalp on a pole. And, you know, as the party are edging in the right direction, I hope that they won't leave me behind and decide that, you know, I'm a fair game. But you never know.

Politics is a dirty business. Well, we've got your back on Piers Morgan Unsensit, Rosie, and you keep fighting. And my, the same with you. Thank you. This battle has to be won. It's a battle for common sense. And for Keir Stama and for others who have a problem about this,

you're the problem. I need to sort yourselves out. The number of women with penises is zero. It's not difficult, this. It's actually quite straightforward. So let's all get with the program of common sense. That's it from us tonight. Whatever you're up to?

Thank you to both of you, to Meyer and to Rosie. That's up. All for us tonight. Keep it uncensored. Tonight.