Piers Morgan Uncensored - Piers Morgan Uncensored: Tim Dillon, TradWife, Ava Santina

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

On tonight's episode of Piers Morgan Uncensored, Piers is joined by comedian Tim Dillon. Piers speaks to a traditional wife and why her values aren't anti-feminist. Piers speaks with regular panellist Ava Santina after the tirade by Laurence Fox got himself and presenter Dan Wootton suspended. Watch Piers Morgan Uncensored at 8 pm on TalkTV on Sky 522, Virgin Media 606, Freeview 237 and Freesat 217. Listen on DAB+ and the app.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So from on-stage assaults to mass protests over their jokes, nothing funny about being comedian in the age of cancel culture, has woke-kill comedy. A last one of the most uncensored comedians in the world, Tim Dillan. The killer interview, Carl Sle, murdered his partner and child for insurance money. I've spoken to him for a brand-new crime series, and tonight I'll talk to his ex-wife and one of the people who helped bring him to justice. Plus, there, the self-styles submissive women.

Do you think a woman's place is helping her husband at home? so-called trad wise reveal in 1950s. So why are they all the rage again today? Live from the news building in London, this is Pearz Morgan Uncensored. Good evening from London. Welcome to Pierce Morgan Unsensit. The problem of styling yourself as the woke prince

of impregnable perfection is that you're bound to eventually slip up and a lot of people will thoroughly enjoy it when you do. Take Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, the man who of course said that the word mankind was offensive. and it should be changed to people-kind. He's a world-leading, woke, irritant, famous for virtue-signel gestures,

like the one I just said. And last week, he hosted Ukraine's President Zelensky at the Canadian Parliament. Some special guests were invited. We have here in the chamber today, Ukrainian-Canadian World Veteran from the Second World War who fought the Ukrainian independence against the Russians and continues to support the troops today.

even at his age of 98. He's a Ukrainian hero, a Canadian hero, and we thank him for all his service. Thank you. Well, most people with a basic education would be aware that Ukrainian soldiers fighting against Russia during the World War II were Nazis.

Yaroslov Hanku, who's now aged 98, served in the 14th Woffen SS Division under Nazi command. I've no idea what he did or didn't do during the war, but I do know that he was a Nazi. And as a former Nazi, probably shouldn't be getting a standing ovation from some of the most powerful people in the country. Hunker was invited by Canada's House Speaker, a member of Trudeau's party,

who has now had to resign, leaving his leader, who happens to be one of the smuggest men of world politics, looking rather less smug than usual. It's going to be really important that all of us push back against Russian propaganda, Russian disinformation and continue our steadfast and unequivocal support for Ukraine. We must push back against Russian propaganda, says the man who's just set a lifetime supply of gift-wrapped material to Russian propagandists. Russia's disinformation machine has spun the demented lie that Ukraine is now run by Nazis. President Zelensky, of course, is Jewish, making his entire fiasco even more insulting and ridiculous. It's not the first time we've seen Trudeau groveling.

Pictures infamously emerged with him in blackface. Actually, repeatedly, he did that, which came as quite a shock to the many people. who spent all these years assuring that he was the nicest, wokenest person in the world. I didn't understand how hurtful this is to people who live with discrimination every single day. I have always acknowledged that I come from a place of privilege, but I now need to acknowledge that that comes with a massive blind spot.

Of course, after that, several more pictures of Trudeau in Blackface Emerged. He eventually had to admit that he'd done it so many times. he couldn't even remember how many times he'd done it. There is one thing, though, which Trudeau will never apologize for. I will never apologize for standing up for an LGBT, LGBTQ2 plus kids' rights. Oh, Justin, just stop, man, person, whatever you want to call yourself. If you want to be the most ultra-woke leader in the world, that's fine. Look, I could do that too.

Remember the rainbow alphabet? Don't wear blackface. Stop applauding Nazis with standing ovations. It's not that hard. Well, I'm joined now by the, well, probably the most famous journalist in the country today, Ava Santina. Talk to the V contributor Esther Crackle on the Associated to the Mirror. Kevin McGuire. Okay.

Elephant in the room time. Ava Sanita. Apart from anything else, I've discovered something today that Ava Santine is your first name and Evans is your surname. Yeah. I don't know quite why we've called you by your gloriously double-barreled first name

as if that's your whole name. I think I've been overly polite and just sort of letting go, yeah. So now I've been reading all about this journalist called Ava Evans. I thought, who's that? Yeah. So first of all, we're going to start calling you by your proper name. This has been a really difficult time for you

the last 24 hours. And I was watching all this happen in real time last night with this GB News situation where Lawrence Fox, who I think is a repulsive individual at the best of times, decided to personally target you in a really horrible manner, in a sexually degrading manner, and he did it on Dan Wooden Show on GB News. As a result, they've both been suspended by G.B. News,

which is their action, it's nobody else's. People are saying, well, what about cancelled culture? Well, they've been cancelled at the moment, their own network, right? So, first of all, how are you? No, I'm good. You were one of the first big journalists to message me last night, and I really, really appreciated it. I think, you know, the support has been really, really lovely to see. But, you know, also, this isn't really about me at all. I just so happened to be the person that they picked on that night and he went too far with. I think I'm, it wasn't a goal of mine to get them suspended from the program. But look, I just think

that that network is, is absolutely. out of hand and it really needed a bit of a slap down and I'm sorry that it's happened the way it has but I'm glad it's happened. Dan Wooten a presenter who's seen kind of laughing along with it although he looks a little uncomfortable actually towards the end of it despite that. He then tweeted you personally expressing his apologies and regret and wished he hadn't done it and said he didn't find it amusing and then Lawrence Fox tweeted revealing their text exchange is showing that Dan did appear to find it funny. Do you see them in two different categories here or encompasses this to the same problem? I would say that Dan Witten facilitated it

and he's an experienced broadcaster and he should have shut it down. I also think that the people in the gallery should have shut it down. You know, they should have gone above and beyond. But look, I think, you know, last night, Dan Witten did try to call me many, many times and I didn't take the phone call

and I didn't take the phone call because I thought perhaps the truth will come out the next day and I'd rather not I'd rather not subject myself to a false apology. And judging by the voicemail he left me and the truth that has come out today, it would have been a false apology. I think we've got the clip.

For those who haven't been following this, it's been gaining more traction through the day. Let's look at actually what was said. We're past the watershed so I can say this. Show me a single self-respecting man that would like to climb into bed with that woman, ever. Ever. And she's sat there and I'm going like,

if I met you in a bar, and that was like sentence three, chances of me just walking away are just huge. We don't need these sort of feminist 4.0. They're pathetic and embarrassing. Who'd want to f*** like that? Esther, I can see you literally sort of gawping in horror of what you're watching and hearing there. And it was just incredibly offensive. Look, I think Fox is long ago crossed the Rubicon.

I remember first watching him when he was on question time. And actually, I thought he... I quite supported him at the time over what went down on question time at time. But ever since, it's been this dissent into just trying to be as appalling as he can possibly be and trying to pretend, well, you know, it's free speech. That is not what protecting free speech should be about. That kind of stuff has no place on any network. I mean, this individual is mentally unwell.

And I think for me, what I find the most disappointing is the fact that Dan didn't shut it down immediately. I mean, when he said, you know, climb into bed with, with this person. I just thought, excuse me, what? That's not your place. That's completely inappropriate. And as an experienced broadcast, he should have said,

actually, you cannot come on my show and say that. That's how that conversation should have gone. He shouldn't have been allowed to finish that sentence. I mean, that's just horrific. But ultimately, I think what we're seeing here is someone who exists in an echo chamber.

We talk about people being on echo chamber, on Twitter and on social media. But actually, there's a real threat of being in an echo chamber in your own personal life as well. And that's something that, unfortunately can happen quite easily in this industry,

especially when you wedge yourself amongst people that have one particular view on any issue. And that's what we're seeing manifest today. He's a grown man. He has children. Thank God he doesn't have daughters. But at the end of the day, he should know that that's completely inappropriate. Kevin, he's shown zero remorse, Lawrence Fox.

I mean, Dan Wooten, to his credit in this, has shown a lot of remorse. I say to his credit, he shouldn't have done what happened. But he has at least said it was completely wrong. I apologize and so on. None of that from Lawrence Fox. He's just dug down ever deeper and said, no, I absolutely stand by. I think I said. Yeah, but peers, revolutions devour their own children.

And here you've got the culture war warriors falling out because Fox is going to take down wooden. That's what he's done. And it's interesting. I didn't know you'd received Ava a phone message from him all full of contrition, which then, you know, he's messaging Fox to somewhere else. But no, Fox is violent. And it's what happens when you just get cheered by a small segment of the country.

Fox can go around, it can get a crowd. on Twitter or on TV, but they're the same people. And you just lose touch with reality. You become a really horrible person. Yeah, I also think that what happens is people start to seek ever greater highs. They're like drug addicts. Yeah. Right?

So it's kind of diminishing returns. You go down these rabbit holes. You have these wackos following you. And to feed that wacko beast, you have to say ever more outrageous things. And you just lose all sense of decency. I mean, what he said last night about Ava? It was just indecent. It was just horrible to listen to.

We can all agree on that. You know, if this was said now on this show, there'd be outrage, quite rightly. I think that a channel has a wider problem and a number of conspiracy theorists and people who are, quite frankly, nutty. There's almost one channel during the day and another in the evening

when they're all on their dodgy sight shouting about the deep state or whatever it is. Ava Santina, to call you, I like your new name I'm giving you. Ava Santini. Have you been on the flip side of this? Has it been a nice experience for you to see the huge reaction from journalists

across the divide in this country? Male, female, I mean, I've noticed it myself. Just the volume of people racing to support you. I'm very appreciative of it, but I'm really embarrassed by all about it. I'm not really on my phone very much. And I think, you know, I've never, ever not wanted to do a debate especially on this program, I will debate anything.

And, you know, vociferously, I will do it. But this is now, like, about my body and about my physical being. And it's just giving me this sort of really icky, horrible feeling that I can't quite explain. Yeah, I get it. Let's move on to something else. Let's get out of this.

Let's move on actually to, do you know what? Let's move on to this. Chocolate, one of my favorite subjects. This is a galaxy bar. It's not as big as it used to be. but it's more expensive and Mars have now admitted the scam. They've cut the bars

and they've upped the price. Are we all as outrage as I am about this? It's for our health, Pierce, is to keep us nice and healthy. You have a smaller bit of this nice... It's basically a salad, really, because it's coming from a cocoa pod. So it's a salad with a bit of... I like your thinking.

It is a salad. Exactly, but you can't have too much salad. It's like a decadent salad. So they have to shrink it to keep everything healthy. The NHS functioning. Do you know, they've also done it with Wheatabix, so explain.

that. What's that about? You know? That's like me striving to be healthy over morning and now I'm getting a smaller portion of it. It's an old con from companies. Look, Mars exists to make lots of money and here they're going to charge you more for less. It's how capitalism works, but it feels really, really sneaky. The biggest chocolate story for me is that the dark bounty chocolate, the red ones, has been discontinued temporarily. Right. And they're my favorite thing. So my, you know, lovely Kerry that you all know who makes everything happen in my world here, she just had to come in the other day looking really upset and forlorn like somebody had died. And I said, what's the matter? Who's died? And she said, no, it's the bounty boughs have died.

I went, what? She said, they're not making them anymore. I was like, this can't be happening. So I've launched a campaign, Emily Maitlis and others have joined in. But on a positive note, celebrations, those big mixed boxes of chocolates, they stopped putting the bounty They're milky ones. And so now, because of an outraged response, they've now come up with a bounty-only box of celebrations. So I think this is a start, but they're the wrong ones.

What we need is a special box of the red ones. You're never happy, are you? Then, well, you know what? I don't ask so much in life. Honestly, I'm easily pleased. Kerry will tell you, I'm easily pleased. I've never heard of anyone eating a dark bounty. I get in. All I want is I want about three or four cups of tea when I get here, as I'm monoton.

to my notes and prepare for you special guests and so on and then I want to have a dark red bounty. Currently, I can't because they have been discontinued. First world problems. If Miles are watching this, I need them to understand just what this is doing to me. It's actually sending me slightly crackies. So I need to have that. Good to see you all. Eva, I'm very sorry that you went through that.

Thank you. I really am. You had the full support of all of us here at Talk TV, not just on this show. I think we all, you know, we hugely value your contributions as a journalist, and we'll continue to do so. Thank you. And I'm sorry you went through it, but I'm also gratified that most right-minded people in our profession were as outraged as I was and you guys were and everybody else was.

So we move on. Good to see it. Unsess of the next. Has woke killed comedy like it kills everything else? Jimmy Carve was called Painfully Unfunny at the weekend after we shared a controversial joke for his new Netflix show. But one of the most uncensored and genuinely funny comedians the world. Tim Dillon joins me next. We'll discuss us.

Welcome back to Piersburg and Unsensitive. They're not swirving attacks or protest pickets. Contemporary comedians face the ever-present threat being cancelled. Jimmy Carr decided to run that gornet this weekend, posting a selection of his darkest jokes as tested on American audiences. They included this one, about 9-11. When Zane left one direction, for me, it was like 9-11. Yeah, I didn't care about that either. Well, the clip's gone viral for all the wrong reasons. many people pointing out the car simply isn't very funny,

but many applauded his free speech sentiments, including my next guest, Tim Dillon, who actually is very funny. So let me bring in Tim. Tim, great to have you on the show, first of all. Thank you for having me. So there's two strands to this. One is woke killing comedy, which I want to discuss with you. But secondly, the Jimmy Car scenario,

where that joke has gone viral and people have been hammering it for it. Where do you sit with that? Well, I think it's funny. I think it's a funny joke. I think that people have forgotten what jokes are, and there are things that are meant to get a reaction from people to make people laugh involuntarily. They're not necessarily truth. They may have elements of truth in them, but that's not what a joke is. A joke is to say sometimes the wrong thing to make people laugh. This is about, we all have a short amount of time on the planet, and we're supposed to be able to kind of release some of the

of life through humor. So, I mean, Jimmy Carr is a hilarious comedian. It's a funny joke. He's not running for Senate. You know, if he was running for an elected office and he said that, and people were outraged, I get it. You're a comedian saying that. People are outraged.

That's crazy. And I don't think Woke is killing comedy. I think Woke is just making, it's drawing kind of a line in the sand and the people that are refusing to censor themselves and are going out there. just saying what they want to say, are having tremendous success. Well, you're one of them. Your friend Joe Rogan's another.

He's not strictly a comedian like you are in that sense. He does this brilliant podcast, but he, I think, fights back against his stuff. Ricky Javis, people like that, I see do it. But there's a lot also who do get genuinely cancelled. I mean, comedians are getting canceled. They are getting, you know, buried by this sort of woke mob. What's your view of that? And what can they do about it?

Well, I think it's a part of a larger conversation about tech and about technology and about free speech and about misinformation. I mean, I think comedy is one part of a much larger conversation about how do you ensure free speech on the internet and how do you do that in a way that allows companies to be profitable, that allows them to, you know, still have advertisers. it's a very complicated issue. You know, I mean, like, you know, my aunt says a lot of stuff.

She should be kicked off Facebook, you know? I mean, she's crazy, but she's my aunt. She's not a comedian. She doesn't have anybody following her, right? It's like, you know, I think what happens to a lot of comics, unfortunately, is they end up someone that an institution wants to make an example out of. And so that if you censor one person,

you kick one person off or one person loses their job, then the other thousands of people are now going to censor themselves and they're not going to wade into that territory. But I feel like it's a conversation about tech. It's not only comedians this is happening to. It's like university professors. And some of those people are affected much more because they don't have the ability to go perform live like we do

and kind of say what we want in a comedy club. We are seeing comedians getting actually attacked. We saw the Chris Rock Will Smith fiasco at the Oscars, for example. Dave Chappelle was attacked on stage in Los Angeles. There have been other examples of this. That's a pretty sinister step forward in miscanceled culture, where people, I mean, for Will Smith to do what he did was an outrageous thing in terms of the message it sent to people,

that for a joke, you would physically assault somebody. And the same with Dave Chappelle. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, the idea that you would physically assault somebody for any joke is completely absurd. You know, I mean, that's just, you know, I think when you think of words as violence and you think that a statement is a violent statement, then it makes sense that people are responding to it with violence. But thankfully, that seems to be a small minority of people that have done that, even though they've done it in very high profile ways. You know, Will Smith, it was major. It was, you know, seen around the world. But, Most people in comedy clubs are not doing that, although it has happened. But yeah, we need to get back to words are words and violence is violence. Yeah, I completely agree. I want to talk about two sets of people who are globally known, and I've had a lot said and written about them.

The first, on the lighter end, Harry and Megan, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex, you have some quite strong views about these two. Yeah, tell me about your views of these two. I love them. they're my favorites. You know, reality television in America had kind of died down and they've brought it back. It's very interesting to make a three-part documentary on Netflix about how bad things are while living in a castle. I find the lack of self-awareness there to be very fun. I mean, they're very funny. They simulated some type of car chase in New York City that didn't really happen.

It was a cab driver that was driving them around said it did not happen. They've, you know, I know people in Los Angeles that they've texted and reached. reached out to because they kind of want to hang out in these circles with celebrities. They got a big deal at Spotify. Spotify didn't make any money. Now the articles are coming out that Spotify lost a lot of money, giving them money to do all these things

that they never ended up really doing and nobody ended up listening after the first few episodes. So victimhood, it makes me laugh. And when someone is clearly not a victim, and I think living in a castle, being part of a royal family, would make you not a victim. And to me, to portray yourself as somebody who's having a rough go of it, whilst living in a castle with royal protection,

and then leaving and flying to America to stay in the home of a big celebrity, and it's a beautiful home, they make me laugh. I mean, I like them. I hope they don't go away. I hope they keep doing this. I hope they keep behaving shamefully. It's great for the tabloids. It's great for us.

We keep doing it. Keep simulating car chases, simulate terrorist attacks. tax, whatever they want to do that keeps them in the news, I'm all for it. Are you as amused by your country's political situation right now? Because many people outside of America are looking at the prospect of Joe Biden, who can barely string a sentence together or stand on his feet. Yes. Coming up against a guy in Donald Trump, who's now had nearly a hundred criminal charges

leveled against him, the idea this is the best America can do is ridiculous and laughable. But do you find it as funny? I find it funny. It's clearly disturbing because we're at the end of an empire, and that's quite obvious to everyone who's watching. I mean, children who are paying attention to this can see there's a problem. But it is funny.

I mean, you know, the other day Joe Biden walked off stage, he had finished giving a speech, and they just started playing, like, jazz music. And he wandered off the stage to jazz. And it was, like, the most poetic moment of, like, the sun setting on the empire. like it's finally over. This guy's just kind of wandering off the stage

to like jazz piano as it ends. Yeah, no, it's disturbing, but it's also, you know, you got to enjoy your life and these are things you don't have a lot of control over. So you really have to just kind of laugh. It is funny. You can't get away from it. The Tim Dillon show, hugely popular,

568,000 subscribers. Congratulations. on that. We love more. Sir, you want more. We all want more. I'm not going to boast that I've got one and a half million. I don't want to tell you I've got one and a half million subscribers. I don't want to make you feel jealous. Yeah.

But on a series, though, it's great to have you on the show. Please come back. You're a very funny guy, and we appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much, peers. I'd love to see you in London. Thank you, buddy. I'd love that. Take care. On the session next, I'm joined by Estab Williams, the self-styled Trad White, who spends hours cooking and clean. while her husband goes to work.

She's amassed hundreds of thousands of followers are promoting this 1950s-esque trend. There isn't an example that all women should follow that debate next. Welcome back to Piersburg and our census. Model Emily Radichowski, one of my favorite dimwits, sparked controversy recently by claiming that getting divorced before 30 is chic. So it seems that a lot of ladies are getting divorced before they turn 30.

And as someone who got married at 26 has been separated for a little over a year, 32. I don't think there's anything better. If there is nothing better than being in your 30s, still being hot, maybe having a little bit of your own money, figuring out what you want to do with your life, for all of those people who are stressed or feeling stressed about that, about being divorced. Like, it's good. Congratulations. It's like, congratulations.

God, she's ridiculous. Well, divorce is certainly becoming more common, and marriage itself is becoming a fierce frontier in the raging culture wars. On the one side, there are feminists rejecting and dating concept on the other, so-called trad wives, who think it binds our societies together. Well, trad wives spend their days due to be cooking and cleaning

or their husbands go to work. Esther Williams, who's a 25-year-old trad wife, has amassed hundreds of thousands of followers by showing off her trad-wife life online. She even gave up a job to be done. the perfect wife. So is she and others like her saving society? Or are they selling out the sisterhood? Well, do you know, me now is traditional wife and influencer Estee Williams. I'm a studio of a socialist, author Grace Blakely, and YouTuber Pearl Davis. This might be the best line-up in the history

of television for a debate of this nature. So I'm very excited. All right, Estée Williams. Let's start with you as the trad wife. Sell it to me. Why do you think we should all go back to having trad wives in marriages? Well, I believe that, well, I actually don't believe that everyone should be a traditional wife. I think that it is a choice. And I think it's a lovely choice if a woman wants to simply be a wife and a mother, and that's enough for her.

And it's a simple way of living with traditional gender rules. It's balanced. And we don't have to do it all as women. I think we've proven that it's possible, but at what cost, right? Right. And in terms of what being a trad wife involves, what do you think it means to be a trad wife? Well, to adhere to traditional gender roles. So what I mean by that is the husband.

He is the provider of the home. He goes out. He works. And he knows how to protect his family if need be. And the wife, she's the homemaker. She does the cooking, she does the cleaning, and she takes care of the home and children, if there are any, and herself, of course.

So that's, it's adhering to traditional gender roles. Okay, Grace, I'm sure you thoroughly agree with this, isn't he? Look, I mean, what Estu's just said about the fact that women should be able to choose, obviously, I completely agree. And, you know, men should be able to choose as well. I think the feminist critique of traditional gender roles and gender ideology isn't that some people like to stay at home and others don't.

It's that you shouldn't be bound to pursue a certain life based on the sex that you were born into at birth. The one issue I do have is I know actually someone, a friend of mine whose sister got involved in the tradwife movement in the US, basically. She was quite young. She got married to someone who was like, this is what we're doing, you're going to be a trad wife, and basically came to regret it. She felt like she'd been controlled, like her life became very small,

and she couldn't get out. She couldn't escape because, you know, she'd lost all her friends, and this has become basically her entire life. And it concerns me that sometimes we see this narrative. on social media, that women have to be a certain way in order to get a husband. So you have to be this particular model of femininity for people to love you.

And I think that's really sad because I don't think anyone should have to shave off any parts of themselves to be loved or to find a husband or anything like that. All right. Pearl, what do you think? I think it's a good that we're seeing a return to traditionalism. Yeah, I think it's a good thing. I don't know.

How is the feminist movement of the last few decades, gaze, how has it gone for you? And when you look at it and see how women have progressed, do you think it's been largely a force for good? Or do you think, as the tradwives do, that perhaps we've lost that sense of gender rules, one of a better phrase, which actually worked very well for many people. I mean, we've seen families disappear. You know, I saw a study the other day that said only 25% of, I mean, this is an American staff, an American household, to have families. So I guess there's positives and there's negatives,

but it's like at what cost, you know? What to you? Like 85, 150 years ago, the average woman had seven kids, 85% of people were married. I mean, you know, there's also much higher infant mortality and women died very young and, you know. I mean, women were more depressed than ever before. We're on antidepressants.

I mean, there are a lot of... Women over the age of 45 are the least happy demographic. There are a lot of very complex reasons for that. And the issue you have... is women like Emily Radikowski, you know, marriage, again, I've said this before, marriage isn't marriage anymore. The average marriage is seven years. We have things like no-fault divorce, leave if you're unhappy. What does that mean marriage isn't marriage anymore? Because there were been so many marriages over the course of history where people have been very unhappy, either the man or the woman has been very unhappy. And they've been forced basically to stay in a marriage. It could have been an abusive marriage. It could have been an abusive marriage.

And that would, you know, we have one life. Why would you spend it with someone who doesn't make you happy? Marriage was about duty. And this is the problem we have with women. Like, like women, Men tend to be better people than us. Yeah, they really do. They tend to... No, no, no, no. They tend to do the right thing. They don't.

I don't. I mean, there's a reason we have phrases like a man of his word, right? It's not a woman of her word. Because men will actually stick things out. Women, when she's hard, we just leave. And you're proving my point. What was your first answer? My happiness, right?

Of course. Everyone deserves to be happy. Everyone deserves to be love. The family doesn't work when it's about you. It's supposed to be about your. kids. And that's the problem in modern. No, no, no, no. There's a balance and a compromise in relationships. Am I allowed to talk now? Look, I think relationships are about balance. They're about compromise. They're about knowing, understanding yourself, learning to, you know, no and understand

another person. Eventually, potentially, if you want to be bringing children into the world and teaching them how to do that as well, teaching them to balance a sense of their own identity with the love that they have for another person. And, you know, for example, I know, an older woman, actually, his friend of our family, who got divorced at about 60. She had, you know, this lovely family. They were together since they were 18,

and she said, I got to a point after I'd stopped being a mother and, you know, I was just kind of getting on, I realized I'd lost my sense of who I was. And I didn't really feel like I knew who I was anymore because I'd always just been a wife and a mother. And I wanted to go out and explore that. And I think that's fantastic.

What is traditionalism? I don't know what you think traditionalism is. I would say a modern mentality is me before the family. I would say traditional. Traditionalism is the family before me, especially in women. And so what I actually, it's interesting, you said 60-year-olds because, you know, I've interviewed 600, 700 people roughly in the past year and a half. I've done hundreds of shows interviewing people about relationships.

And what I find is the 60-year-olds tend to, a lot of those women led their daughters astray. You know, there's a reason we're in this mess, right? A lot of those women had the wrong mentality when it came to marriage and have exactly the mentality that you're talking about. Which is that one's to prioritize balancing one's own sense of identity with compromise and a relationship with someone else. It's myself before the marriage. But that's, again, you know, I think there's an interesting point here actually. I would say the women of our generation really are suffering because of the advice of the women of the past.

There's an interesting point here, right, which is that we do live in a very individualistic society. And we're all told, actually, I think a lot of the time in our relationships as well, you have to be a certain way if you want to receive love. You have to abide by these norms. You have to be a certain level of attractiveness. You have to earn a certain amount of money. It's all about you. And that's not what love is.

All right, listen, it's actually been very interesting this into this. Let me bring it back in Estes. In terms of trad values, like my wife puts the bins out, for example. I've never asked her to. She's just adopted that role in our house. So I never put the bins out. I don't know if I should feel ashamed to myself. I do other stuff that I don't put the bins out.

As a trad wife, do you put your bins out? Is that part of the gender rule? of the 50s? Is that what used to happen? Or does the man supposed to do that? I mean, how do these rules work in reality? To be honest, it has nothing. I don't want to say nothing. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the 50s and the 60s, especially in our household. I enjoy the aesthetic. And I think that's where people get a little mixed up with my channel.

But I, well, to answer your question, actually, I don't put the trash bins out. My husband does that, but I think we have this thing in our household where he does most of the outdoor work. I do all the indoor work. Of course, he works and provides, and I'm the homemaker. That's what works for us. But in relation to what Pearl said, is part of a sense of being dutiful and having no problem, actually, with being dutiful in a marriage? Yes. I believe that traditionalism can, it is putting your family before yourself.

And I think it is having those traditional values that were once definitely more in place in God, family, and love. And we live in a very selfish society now. You know, you see self-love printed everywhere, right? And women, speaking of divorce and marriage, women are leaving marriage far more easily easier than men, and they are doing it because they think there's something better out there for them, that the grass is greener on the other side, and they're finding out that is wrong, and they're going through divorce after divorce. And, you know, marriage is a bond, and it's a sacred bond where two become one under God,

and that's beautiful, and you have to protect that at all costs. And I think part of that is putting your partner's needs before your own every single day. And I try and do my best, and I think of my husband as much as I can and what will please him and make him happy. I love the sound of this. Sorry, I mean, obviously, I don't. I wouldn't dare to express anything more. I think that's a lovely way to think about relationships if it's reciprocal.

You're talking about God and family and tradition. Paul, can I please? I think my sentence. Life isn't about keeping score. I thought women were supposed to, you know, recognize their place and learn not to speak over other people. No, so, look, I think it's reciprocated. You talked there about religion and about Christianity

and about self-love. You know, the most important commandment, there's two most important commandments. Love your neighbor as yourself. So that requires a foundation of self-love and respect for oneself and knowledge of one's own identity and what one wants to be able to receive and give the love that you're going to have

in a solid and healthy relationship. It has to be musical. You're not looking forward to it. Getting you all back in about 10 years' time to see if either of you to are married and have stayed married and to see particularly, Esty, if you're still married and still happily married

and still feel exactly the same way you do today about what marriage should be. That would be a really interesting show in about 10 years. And also how happy we are in general with our lives and all the other many rich aspects of our relationships and our careers and all of these things. Yeah. Great debate. Thank you very much, ladies.

Nice to see you all. Uncensor next, I'll speak a bit of a gear change list, to the ex-wife of serial killer Carl Carlson, who murdered his previous partner and his son, 17 years apart for the insurance money. He also killed lots of other things and torched cars. I spoke to him for a brand new series on Fox Nation, and tonight I'll talk to the woman who helped put him behind bars, plus his second wife. Welcome back to Piersburg and Unsensett.

It's the horrific story now of two murders intricately linked. Carl Carlson murdered his wife, Christina and son Levi, 17 years apart for one sole purpose, it turned out, insurance money. Both deaths were initially deemed accidents, but Carl's lives eventually caught up with him and the 62-year-old faces the rest of his life behind bars. Well, I sat down with him for a pretty harrowing hour

for a new series that's now on Fox Nation in America called The Killer Interview with Pierce Morgan, and I asked Carl Carlson, but it was just bad luck, as he claims, or if he was indeed a ruthless murderer. 62-year-old convicted murderer Carl Carlson wants you to believe he's guilty of nothing more than having bad luck. His horses died. His wife died. His son died. The truck's now I'm my stepson.

There had been a fire at my sister's house, and my sister did not make it out. But is Carlson's misfortune a cover for something more sinister? When Carl Carl Carson needs money, people have accidents. I believe I had a life insurance policy. over $700,000. I've been given one hour at Carlson. Come and sit down. Who says he was forced into a confession?

He doesn't stab them, he doesn't shoot him. He creates a hazardous situation and then sits back and lets his situation kill them. Are you the world's unluckiest human being or are you a ruthless killer? Well, I know my view, a ruthless killer. And tonight I'm joined by the ex-wife of Carl Carson

Cindy Best, who became suspicious of her husband, included with the police to get a confession from it. And the true crime author of Levi's Eyes, which is out today, Aphrodite. Jones, welcome to both of you. Thank you for joining the program. Aphrodite, let me start with you first. Just to paint a picture. You've written a gripping book about this.

Levi's Eyes, a son's deadly secret, a father's cruel betrayal. The more I got into the weeds of Carl Carson's story, the more shocking it became. It wasn't just his first wife and his son that he effectively let die for in insurance money. It was a bunch of horses in a barn that he kept. It were cars that were being torched. He was claiming for almost everything he could think of. And then that would either be torched or killed or whatever it may be. I mean, a truly terrifying individual. Yes. And in fact, Pierce, first of all, I loved how you went after him and made him squirm in that seat. I have a different experience with him in that I was able to talk to this killer for two years

plus five days a week. He was calling during the trial, before the trial, after the trial. It's unprecedented. I've been doing true crime books now for 30 years, and I've never had that kind of access to a killer. What that did for me is to make me understand the mentality of this person and get into his mind more than I've ever in any killer I've ever written about or interviewed. And what I realize is this man,

actually believes that you're going to forget what happened in the past. Right. So in the words, his wife, Christina, died in the fire. That's over. You know, um, so the difference is I couldn't confront him because I kept pulling out jewels that are insane out of this psychopath's mouth, okay? And it just led me to understand something very important here, which is the connection is not just money, the connection is not just what Levi's

saw, which we believe he saw his father ready to kill all of them in the house in that fire. Yeah. But it's also a very strange relationship, Pierce, between Levi and his father. Because what made Levi get under that truck on the same day that he signed a will over to his father, leaving all his earthly possessions there? If he knew his father was a killer. Yeah, I mean, there is a baffling part of this. Let me bring in Cindy here, because Cindy,

You began to have suspicions, didn't you, about Carl, and you actually cooperated with the police in trying to expose him. You know, when I sat with him, I've got to say, I just realized quite quickly that he was a very, very sophisticated liar, that he would look me straight in the eye and tell point-blank lies. When you look back now on your time with him, obviously you were married to him, do you now think the same about him that he just lied the whole time? Yeah, during our marriage, I knew that, you know, that's the one thing that I knew most about him, that he was a liar.

You know, we had many fights about it. He just, but then there were times where he'd put just enough truth into something to make me question myself. You know, is that true or it was just bizarre, you know. But that feeling, that feeling, Cindy, when you discover that his first wife didn't die out. accidentally in this house fire, that it was deliberate and that he got $215,000 from an insurance policy as a result. And then his son, 17 years later, he gets a $700,000 pound insurance pay out on that. At that point, are you fearing for your life and the life of all the other kids in this scenario? What are you thinking?

Yeah, well, first, I started suspecting about Levi. I knew about Christina, but I didn't know all the details and everything, but things just really didn't start adding up with Carl and the things that he was telling me and kind of changing his story a little bit. And that's when I really, you know, I call them panic attacks, panic that I would have where, you know, I'd just be in a panic thinking, oh, my God, he did it.

But then there would be times, you know, I would think I would justify why he couldn't have done it. You know, there were so many reasons, you know, law enforcement said it was an accident. You know, the coroner put the time of death at, you know, this time. We weren't home at that time. So, you know, it was a process getting to the point where I, you know, could definitely, you know, feared that this was true. And do you fear now, looking back on it, if he hadn't been caught and put in prison now for the rest of his life,

that he may have done something to you? Yeah, I feared more for my granddaughters that, you know, he would probably have a better opportunity to do something to them. Yes, I feared for my own life. And it was just a bizarre thing to live through, you know, being terrified. Yeah, horrific. I can't imagine anything worse and awful for you.

Aphrodite, you know, I've been to be terrified. a lot of killers, serial killers, psychopaths, all sorts of different kind of killers. Many of them commit crimes of passion, in many cases. Most murders are crimes of passion. There was something particularly evil about Carl Carlson for me, because it was the way that he planned all these things so meticulously. And it was all for financial gain, that he just wanted to get money, and he didn't care if he killed a wife or a child or anything close to him.

I mean, really scary guy. Well, and as Cindy pointed out, and you were asking, this is particular to the story, he took out life insurance policies on his two granddaughters. When I wrote this, I had no idea that someone could even do that without the granddaughter's present. He did that. He had $250,000 on each child. And on Cindy, through death benefits on an annuity he took out, he had $1.2 million that he would collect. the idea would be he would have killed Cindy and one of his granddaughters,

therefore collecting a million and a half dollars. That was his next move, Pierce. So talking about planning, you have to understand, he finessed Cindy into signing those documents in which she was, in essence, signing her life away and her granddaughter's lives away because he had so much paperwork going back and forth,

she was bamboozled. And this is the way. Even as you're talking about this, it's bringing a chill to my spine. Cindy, I just want to say to you, you know, I flew over. I interviewed Carl at length, as you know, and it's airing now. People can watch this on Fox Nation. But I just want to say to you just, you know, how sorry I am that you went through this and how much I appreciate you coming on the program to talk about what must be, you know,

most people who don't know you, it's just a horrible crime story. For you, this was your life. and it could have cost you your life. And I just want to say, I'm really sorry for what you went through. Oh, thanks for saying that, Pierce. Yeah. You know, I'm coming out the other side

and, you know, trying to do good for other people and, you know, it's, you know, it's all good now. Cindy, we've got to leave it there. I wish you all the very best. I really do. I mean that. And Aphrodite, thank you for coming on. The book's called Levi's Eyes.

The son's deadly secret, a father's cruel betrayal. It's a gripping book about an extraordinary story, and I appreciate it. And for viewers in America, you can watch all eight of my crime documentaries on Fox Nation. They're on there now, and they'll be coming to other territories, I'm sure, before too long. That's it for tonight. Keep it on sensitive. Good night.