Piers Morgan Uncensored - Pride Month Comes To An End...

Episode Date: July 5, 2024

Pride Month has come and gone, and with it the rainbow flags and banners. So, Piers Mortgan brings rapper and podcast host Zuby, transgender activist and writer Eli Erlick, Uncensored contributor Esther Krakue and comedian and podcast host James Barr together for a timely review of this year’s festivities. One thing that has been noticed by more than just a few is that in the US, Target have massively scaled back their pride merchandise and observance of the holiday after the conservative backlash, leading many to question their commitment to the queer community in the first place. Conflict then arises when the panel arrives at the topic of trans women in women’s sports. Then we move on to the overnight success of the ‘Hawk Tuah’ girl and what it says about western society. Piers also has an interview with Power Slap heroine 'Hungarian Hurricane' Sheena Bathory about her rise and somewhat tragic journey into the brutal new combat sport of slap fighting. 00:00 - Introduction 01:27 - 'Woke capitalism' 09:12 - Eli v Piers on trans in Sport 13:43 - Has Pride jumped the shark? 21:23 - Female Power Slapping 33:13 - Roger Waters - legend or loon? 41:58 - Hawk Tuah! 44:33 - The strange new online trend 56:33 - Piers' Pick of the Day Subscribe to stay up-to-date on all Uncensored content. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well, pack away your rainbow flags and leather chaps. It is ironically safe to come out again. Pride month is now over. But did this year's backlash outweigh the celebration? We're going to debate this. And I'm extraordinarily head-to-head with Pink Floyd legend Roger Waters has divided the internet. Also, we know what Hamas broadcast on social media. Calm down.

Roger. Roger. Calm down. Is he a legend or a dangerous loom? Is he hawk tour? Girls stratospheric rise to global start. a reflection of the West's moral and intellectual decay. Huck, too, and spit on that thing.

Probably just taking it as little seriously. And power slapping is one of the fastest growing sports in the world. I'll meet the viral female power slapping sensation, known as the Hungarian hurricane. And I'll ask you one question. Why? Well, joining me to debate all that and more. It appears his pack.

Rapper and podcast, Hozoubi. activist and writer Eli Erlich. And here in the studio, Uncensored Contributor, Esther Crack and comedian, a podcast host, James Bar. Well, welcome to you all. It feels like years since I had you all together because it's so much happening in the world right now.

We're going to try and, I think, get to slightly different non-political issues, although everything in the end is politics. And I want to start with a clip from John Stewart, who's back to doing a daily show on Comedy Channel once a week. And he said this about the commercial of Pride. Well, Target will be dialing back its Pride Month merchandise this June.

What? How will I learn to live, laugh, lesbian? That's right. Target is apparently less proud of pride this year. But why? Retail giant Target is grappling with backlash from conservatives over its most recent collection celebrating the LGBTQ community.

Do not shop at Target. or else you're gay and you're a pervert. And he went on. I mean, he made some very interesting points. He talked about Burger King with their pride whopper, made with two equal buns, Skittles' colorless pride pact declaring only hashtag one rainbow matters, and an Oreo ad showing a family overcoming a father's deep conservative values with a rainbow painted fence. And he said, that's the burden corporations must bear, he mocked.

They care almost too much about the human condition, often fund themselves in the crosshairs of ideologues and fundamentalists, but they stand by their values sometimes for a couple of months. And that was response to Target, who of course abandoned what they were doing after the backlash. We saw the same thing with Bud Light and Dillemalvaney and so on, indicating it may all just be virtue signaling. Zubi, let me start with you on this.

I've been on this case for quite a while that I think the pride, the whole idea of pride, I loved it when it started, It was a Pride day. Great. There are lots of days in the year, and I can happily sign up to it. Now it's like a full-on month, and it's been completely hijacked by the corporate world in the most kind of shameless, insincere virtue signaling way. Discuss.

Yeah. Well, I think it's what I'd call woke capitalism. I think if you go back to the time of Occupy Wall Street around 2008, there was a mass. massive backlash, both from people on the left side of the aisle and from the right side of the aisle, about what we could truly call corporate greed. And I think corporations notice this. And I think a lot of them made this pivot to appease their natural enemies or opponents, which is the true left. And so I think by them throwing out these easy bones and virtue signaling about pride, virtue signaling about BLM or whatever else seems to be trendy, by the way, only doing this,

in nations where it is trendy, not doing this necessarily around the world. I think that they have been able to essentially, while they've annoyed some people, they've been able to appease their natural enemies and keep those people kind of quiet and saciated. So I think at a deep level, that is really what's going on. Of course, we could also talk about, you know, ESG scores and things like that. But I think that's actually the primary route of why they've been doing that type of pandering. I think that's what it is at a deep level. All right, James Barr. Would you agree with that? I find it really surprising.

Oh, Eli. Well, welcome to one sense of it, Eli. If you want to go first and jump in over James, be my guess. In fact, I'm delighted. Off you go. Eli. Yeah, absolutely. So I actually am surprised I'm agreeing with you on this. Corporations have very little interest in the queer and trans community. I'm a queer trans woman.

I've seen them marketing to me more and more over the years. and the moment, the very moment that we stop becoming profitable, they drop us. It's very clear what's happening. And I'm on board with John Stewart on this. They are just virtue signaling. Yes. I think we've got a triple strike here. Because I completely agree.

Whoa! I think so. James Barr finally sees common sense. I just want to say, I am wearing black today just to mourn Pride Month and also show respect for straight pride, which we're currently now in. Here's the thing with the corporations. I think sometimes they're doing it for their employees, and that's really important. I think it's amazing that some companies are showing support for the community.

Well, as we discussed before, the rest of the year is straight peers. It's not, though, isn't it? We don't celebrate being straight. You celebrate being straight all the time just putting your mouth. There are no street parties for my straightness. There's no straight flag. You're celebrating and being straight literally right now. And so it's important that companies do that and show their support for pride,

but a lot of the time it does feel insincere. Actually, hang on, I'll come to a minute. Actually, why should companies do any of this? When did it become this thing that companies feel the need to lassoothe themselves to endless causes or campaigns? It never used to happen. When I buy a beer, I don't care that the beer company wants to put a rainbow flag out there to signal their virtue, particularly as they won't be doing it in the Middle East

where homosexuality is largely illegal or in large swathes of Africa or in large swathes of Africa or in places like that. So there's a hypocrisy and double standard with these global companies where they'll only do it in places where actually it's easy. Well, it's crumbs, isn't it? They're just giving us crumbs.

It's a wide... They're motivated by the people that work in the companies. It's not because of some great outcry from their consumer base. I think sometimes it is to do with the people that work at the company. No, it's all the time.

That's always the case. Companies always want to look good when they're not paying people enough money or what they're not doing the right thing. That's a side issue. But like, look at just. during BLM, I was getting emails from ice cream companies telling me how proud that they are that I'm back. First of how do they even know that? And secondly, how is that relevant? I think this

idea that they can get away with doing pride flags in countries where it's not illegal, but then you see KFC not doing that in India or in sub-Saharan Africa is ludicrous. And it actually shows the moral depravity in these companies. Well, it reminds me, actually, reminds me of the just-stop oil protesters. So you never see the just-stop oil protesters in China or India or Russia, where almost all the pollution is actually going on. So they don't dare do it where it's difficult. They just do it where it's easy pickings. They go and attack a Chelsea Flower Show

or a cricket match or a football match. Well, is that not a particular organisation based in Britain? Is that why we're not seeing just stop? Actually, no, they've got global aspirations. All right, Greta Thunberg, right? When does Greta Thumburg, when do you ever see her in places like China or Russia? Oh, the Congo?

She doesn't live in those countries. But if you think about other activists, Peter Chatchel. She tries to bully them. Peter Tatchel. She wouldn't dare do it in places where actually. it would take real courage. That's my point. Other activists have done that.

Peter Tatchel has bravely... Peter Tatchel has. I think he's one of the exceptions. Normally, a lot of these protesters for a lot of these causes, they don't actually have moral courage. What they do is take the easy shot for attention and headlines.

And to me, and I'm quite glad we've reached a sort of general agreement on this because I just think it really devalues to me. If I was a trans person, and I'm not going to speak for you, Eli, or any trans people. But none of this is,

helps being a trans person to me. All it does is kick up. Cultural war after cultural war after cultural. That is so rich coming from you. I would love to see them get trans people raises. That would actually be doing something to help us. Say that again? I would actually like to see them give their workers better wages.

That would help us a hell of a lot more than slapping a rainbow flag on some of their products and trying to sell it to markets in the US. It's not really helpful. Right. So actually do things which can forge genuine equality and fairness for trans people, which is what we should all aspire to get, right? Exactly, exactly. I mean, on that point, though, given you've not been uncensored before,

we've debated this a lot with other guests, particularly James, how do you feel, given that trans people want fairness and equality, how do you feel about the issue of trans athletes in women's sport, given that it's so obviously to me and many other people, unfair and unequal? Oh, here we go. Well, let's leave it to the experts. The different associations have agreed on different standards for different sports. It's all very relative. A recent study actually found that we're too harsh on trans people in sports and require too much, too long of a transition to a point where the equivalent cisgender person would be at a disadvantage. So it's complicated. It needs to be drawn out by the actual sports authorities rather than politicians or pundits. So if a six-foot-five-inch 230-pound biological male boxer puts their hand up and says, I would like to compete in women's boxing, would you be happy with that?

There are six-foot-five, 300-pound ciswoman, too. Can they not compete? They don't have the same physiology as it. of biological male. They don't have the same lung capacity. They haven't got the same muscle mass. No, they haven't. This is the whole point of the debate, is that it's not just about taking less testosterone. You haven't, as Caitlin Jenner has articulated very well,

you have an inbuilt superior physiological advantage over biological females. That's the problem. Now, I want trans-athlete- Not necessarily. Estrogen, look, estrogen absolutely wreaks havoc on our, havoc on our muscular systems on our ability to perform in sports. And there's a reason that the rules are so strict because it does greatly affect our capacity to participate. Well, we'll disagree.

I think this is where, I think this is where a lot of the backlash against the so-called trans community comes from because, you know, we can, we all agreed on that first point that this is pandering and this is companies trying to make money and so on. But when people start coming to arguments about biological males competing in female sports, and by the way, notice the conversation only happens in one direction, and there's a specific reason for that. Nobody is concerned about men's sports or boys' sports. And that is because we're biologically different. And I just think that this is the reason why this conversation has raged on for so long.

It's these type of ridiculous, frankly, demands that affect women, affect half of the population, particularly those who play sports. and that's where people just get lost. And I think that's where a lot of the backlash or resentment actually is stemming from. I think in the West, most people at this point don't really care. Go ahead. I don't, I'm, well, I'm going to go. I'm the only trans person here.

This isn't about sports. It's about a gateway for the right to begin banning trans people from access to the way. No, no, no. I'm not right wing. That's not true. I'm not right wing. So how do you figure that?

No, it's not electric. I don't have right-wing views on trans folks. I've just said to you, hang on, I want trans people to have fairness and equality and the same human rights as everybody else. And even if you don't want trans people to enrollee yourself on the right, it's still a gateway into banning trans people from different facilities outside of sports. I would like trans people to have to either compete against their own biological sex, which seems to me the easiest thing to do,

or they compete in a new, in a new, in a new, section altogether of trans athletes. What's wrong of that? So a new separate by equal league is what you're saying. Can I jump in here? The solution for this is very simple, and we've had the solution as far as I know for about a century. And this is simply to have an open sports league and a female only sports league. A lot of what people call men's sports is not even explicitly men's sports. Anyone is allowed to participate, but because of the biological

and physiological advantages men have, if you take the fastest, the strongest people in the world, the best endurance, they're all going to end up being men. That's how it's going to stack up, which is why if you want females to be able to participate in sports, you need to have a separate league because they can't compete in a open competition against men. I agree. Let's move on, though,

because there's another part of pride. I want to talk to you, Ben. I'll start with you, James, on this. There is a suggestion that it's jumped the shark. And the reason for that, and we've got some examples of this, in Seattle, a convoy of completely naked bike riders and roller skaters had some questioning just how fam friendly friendly, the event was. You've got kids there watching this. In San Francisco, Pride had a

fetish zone where a man lying in an inflatable pool of urine where attendees were encouraged to urinate on him. Other booze featured participants getting spanked, whipped and initiating sex acts on each other all in public. And in Toronto, New York, the politics of Palestine and Israel took over with queer, as they called themselves, protesters, preventers. preventing the parade from progressing along its designated route by sitting in the middle of the road. So a lot of people saying that it's going too far. Now, James, I would say it does go too far when people do that.

If you want to actually make pride a family thing, which many people want it to be, how can you allow that kind of stuff? You've given me a lot to respond to their peers. I would say in Germany right now at the Euros, there are English fans walking around with their dicks out, pissing in the street. I think if you go to Sweden, there are naked people everywhere, like in saunas, and it's completely

fine. You're comparing the footage zone in San Francisco proud to England football fans. In London, very regularly, and kids walk past that naked bike ride. What you're doing is you're trying to make this a massive war against queer people, but actually this is just all the people. This is all people. And in San Francisco, where some of those people were naked at Pride recently, it's actually legal to be naked in events like that.

So if you're taking your children to that, then that's on you. That's not on the queer community. And as I said, this isn't just queer people. This is all people. I think you touch on a point that all sort of movements can devolve to become a congregation of the mentally unwell. Yes, that is fine. But each community is that to be naked? You're mentally unwell if you're walking out in public naked.

Why is that mentally unwell? Because you're mad. So you're saying people in Sweden that are naked in storners, is that mentally unwell? Yeah, I think if you're leaving your house... Just because you have shame about your body. Yes, I have shame. I'm sorry. raised properly. I have shame. I don't leave my house

naked. I was raised properly. I have shame. I have a sense of shame. I don't think that it's all about me and what I want. I actually think of the public. Well, here's the thing. Here's the point. You made a significant point, which is that there is a tendency for all movements to devolve into some sort of congregation of the mentally and well, which

is fine. I never said that. That's literally not what I'm finessing what you're saying. But the point here is that every group must take responsibility for the people within their own enclave. You don't expect us to tell these people that are getting naked in the name of pride to tell them to put on food. But they're not breaking the law.

It's disgusting. They are breaking, it's public indecency. That's not. All right. It's not. It is not. Let me bring in Eli on this. Eli, is there a line that pride has crossed as some people.

I mean, Jordan Peterson said about all this. There's a real tinge of narcissism, sexual narcissism about the whole pride spectacle. Do people have the right to express their sexuality? That is really bold. Let me finish his quote. Do people have the right to express their sexuality the way they see it? some degree if it's consensual and among adults. But generally among human beings with any degree of civilized comportment whatsoever, it's a pretty damn private affair. Has he got a point, Eli?

No, he doesn't. It's Jordan Peterson. He never has a point. He's a very smart man who has also a good point. He was clearly demarced for adults. And I mean, personally, I was friends with some of the protesters that blocked New York City pride. And what they're doing is blocking the human rights campaign flow, which is sponsored by Raytheon, who's currently committing genocide in Gaza. So they had their reasons for this, and there needs to be more context for all of these. On a broader level, we're not responsible for every member of our group. This is how the right latches on to our different identity categories and our different social movements to try to demonize all of us for the actions of a few that might be a little less respectable.

What about those who are not on the right, Eli, like me? I'm not on the right. I'm a liberal. You do that to people on the right all the time. I'm a liberal who just sees endless acts of self-harm by the trans lobby when actually I'm with you. I want you to get fairness and equality. But I don't want you eroding other people's rights.

You keep on saying this and yet your actions speak differently. What actions? What action? I'm trying to get trans people banned from sports, comparing trans women. Hang on, don't misquote me. I don't want trans people bound from sports. I want them to be disallowed from competing against. it's biological women.

Different thing. I want them to be able to compete in sport. With people of their own gender. All their own sex. They should compete with people of their own sex. That is exactly the type of talking point that in 20 years we're going to be looking back at and regret. Really? So you think in 20 years time in the Olympics,

to be clear then, in the Olympics, you would have just, what, open Olympics? Sexes irrelevant, gender irrelevant. Everyone just competes against each other? I would too. Really? So do you understand? Well, everyone just can...

Eli, do you understand it by doing that, you literally end the Olympics. It's all over because only men would win. Do you understand that? That's why we separate them. I don't want to take this down. But hang on. I want Eli to respond.

You literally are destroying the Olympics for anyone who's not a man. Well, that's a very grandiose vision of it. Not really. Not really. If you look at the times and the results of men Olympians against women Olympians, you will see that in almost, I think, 98% of all the events,

men are so far ahead of women on speed, on power and everything, every other discipline. And that's why we separate it by categorization. Women would never win a medal again at the Olympics if you had your way. Is that what you want? Well, that's very sexist. No, no. Do you know that the first one is to?

Hang on. Hang on. It's not sexist. Do you know the first woman that has swam the channel? I'll come to you. It is not sexist. a fact. It's why we separate the sexes. When Megan Rapino finished her career playing the soccer team, American women's soccer team, she then said that she'd be happy to see a trans woman competing in the women's men's, women's team, right? Which is fine because it wouldn't take her place. But if you allowed trans women football players, soccer players, to compete

and enough of them began to do this, there would be no biological women left in the women's national soccer team because they would be physically superior. Well, trans people already have the right to do that and you're not seeing the results that you say you would be seeing. Yeah, but you see, you and James both have this wonderfully quaint notion that if you open up the Olympics to everyone, that women would continue to win medals, they wouldn't. They win nothing. Obviously, this is complicated, Pia. It's not complicated. It's not complicated. It's why we separate them.

Literally, we're Megan Rapino's national women soccer team. Play the Dallas under 15s. They lost 8-2. They were under 15-year-old boys. The first woman to swim the English Channel, the first woman to do that, beat the men's record by over two hours. He slowed down.

He was trying to hit on her. All right, hang on. All right, let's move on. This is actually on the same kind of subject because I'm going to bring in a guest and have a little chat with them and then come to the panel. Power slapping is said to be the fastest growing sport on the planet.

For those of you haven't witnessed it, This is what it is. Sheena Bathory lining it up. One. Well, Shina Bathory, aka the Hungarian Hurricane, has been signed by Power Slap CEO Dana White, and joins us now from Budapest. Well, welcome to you, Hurricane.

Hello, thank you so much for the opportunity. Did you like being called Hurricane? Yeah, you can call me Hurricane. Now, this is an incredibly fast-growing popular sport, but it really involves just slapping your opponent as hard possible. What made you take it up? I went to United States three years ago, so I was happy for any opportunities. And I thought that this sport is going to suit me because I was very aware of my power. And I was, I was trying. I was definitely one to try out. When did you first start

slapping people? Besides the competition. Yeah. It's like in your life. I mean, presumably you've done it before and got a taste for it. When was that? Who was you? Who were you slapping? It was in my past relationship. Yeah. That was the first time I had to experience. With a man or a woman, if you don't mind me asking? Was a man. You started slapping around your boyfriend? No, actually, he started slapping me first. What? And when I, yes, it was a bit violent relationship. And yeah, at the end, I had to give it back. So this is. So actually, listen, I don't want to trivialize.

So what you're saying is you were in a relationship with domestic abuse. This man was slapping you in a domestically abusive manner. Yes, that's correct. And you then began to defend yourself by slapping him back? Yes. Wow. And then the relationship ended. Yeah, later.

And then I earned a courage to get out from. Yeah. Well, obviously that is very sad. I didn't know that part of your story. And obviously it's very serious. But interesting that when you went through this of self-protecting in the way that you were defending yourself, out of that you realized that you were quite good at it.

Yeah, I think it was a good experience. I'm not really regretting it that I had to go through on it because the power slap came for a reason in my life. And I would say that I'm just investing in it, my past experience. So I don't regret everything what I went through on. Now, you're the most famous power slapper in the world now. What does it take to be a good power slapper? What's the skill set?

We are still working on the training plan, how to become the best. I think my strength is coming from my judo background, and currently I'm training in MME. And I think also it's my nature. So my father was my judo coach. He's a very extremely strong man. I grew up on the farm, so I always had to work really hard, like physical hard work. So I think maybe that's what gives me the good strength basement.

Now, I want to show a clip. This is from men's power slapping. Let's take a look. Going on. Please shot, scorched by verdict, Bairdick. Now that looks. really violent. Do you ever compete against men or is it strictly sex separate? If I have to compete against men?

Do you ever compete against men or do they keep the two sexes separate? I officially have to compete only against women. However, I offered for Frank, because it's getting very popular in the United States, that men are competing against female, that I'm okay to compete against men as long as they are making the same way as I do. And how would you feel about a trans woman competing in the women's side? I'm absolutely against it. They still have different chromosomes, even though they are dressing up as a woman. They are still a man.

But if they want to compete against me, I'm facing, but I don't think that it's fair against a woman. You think they would just be more powerful generally? Absolutely, yes. Like, yeah, that's their genitive. They're just naturally stronger. How, I mean, it looks very violent, but it looks very violent, but you are, in the end, slapping each other.

I mean, how much does it hurt? I mean, do you suffer bad injuries from this? Of course, it comes with some serious injuries sometimes, especially when some people going up, like, three by three slabs. Me personally, I feel concussion after getting slapped,

but you can ask my opponent what they felt after being slapped or get killed because I think after getting knocked out, we definitely have to take months to completely recover from it. How many women have you knocked out?

Two. Really? And does that bother you or not? Yes. Honestly, I don't like to hurt without reason, but I appreciate the opportunity, and I think we are both agreed to be slapped, so we know the rules, and since it goes under the agreement,

I try to not to feel guilty to slapping them. But I feel more comfortable if I'm, I'm getting slapped first because it's a trigger for me. And then after I'm getting slapped, it's a little bit easier for me to give my full power for the next lap. And listen, you're one of the biggest stars of this. How much money are you making a lot? I think it's relative. For me, it's good because I'm coming from Hungary, and Hungary is not the richest country.

I have a huge family, so I appreciate it. everything. So in this case, I think it's a good opportunity. Well, Sheena, thank you very much. Thank you very much for joining me. I didn't know the backstory as to why you got into this, which was fascinating. And good luck with your career. It looks like you're one of the biggest stars and one of the fastest growing sports in the world. So thank you for joining me. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to talking to you. Well, I've got my panel back now. Zumi, what do you make of that? I mean, it's a, listen, Is it any different really to boxing and these other contact sports of that nature?

Do you feel weird watching it? Yeah, I think it's sadistic. I'm not a fan. Look, if people want to do that and they consent to it and sign all their waivers and whatever, then, of course, they're welcome to do it. I'm just generally worried about where our society and culture is heading in the West, when people are paying big money to see women stand there and, you know, knock each other out. I think the big difference with something like boxing or MMA is you can't defend yourself, right?

You're just standing there. You're just a standing target. And it's just how hard a hit can you take. I have no idea how many injuries they've had so far. I know it's a relatively new quote unquote sports. But I see something pretty tragic happening with this. I think it's going to be inevitable. And I think the fact that you can't even defend yourself.

I think that's a very significant factor that changes it from other types of combat sports. That's my opinion. I think that's a really good point. I mean, James, I know I've looked at you sometimes, which is quite clear you wanted to give me a good slap. But what do you make of all this? I'm deeply upset by that story, actually. About the reason she got into it.

Yeah, I've also been in a violent relationship. I didn't hit back. I just took it. But I've written a comedy show about it. And I suppose that is me hitting back, right? And it's interesting how trauma plays out like that. We can experience things and then recycle them. And that's what I'm doing in Edinburgh this summer.

I think that's what Sheena is doing in the power. slap but I agree with what you just said like is it okay there's no way to defend yourself I don't I don't know if I enjoy that as a sport because there is no way to defend yourself it's really about how much pain you can and and then hearing why that's happening and

how she wants to go first because it's a trigger for her is deeply upsetting and quite traumatized because you think it basically all goes back to what she told absolutely she's living that still and that's how important it is to talk about domestic violence and abuse openly like she is

doing right there and like I'm doing. We have to talk about it so that we can try and end that cycle. So I have so many follow-up questions that I'd love to ask her. It's sort of beautiful what she's doing but also kind of horrifying. Yeah. Esther, what do you think of it? It's a recipe for brain damage. I can't imagine even training for that. Seriously, the time span you can even be in that career must not be more than a few years because you will literally suffer the consequences for the rest of your life. It's a weird thing. I don't think I can enjoy watching it. Yeah, I mean, Even watching these few clips we're showing, it's just very odd. And also, there's no...

And I do think Zubi hit, I hit the net on the head, really. If there's no capacity to self-defend at all, what are you left with? You're left with just acts of brutality, undefended. There's no skill involved. So you can't actually say it was better or worse. There may be a skill in how you slap. So it's not skill devoid, presumably the ones who are really good like her, have a particular technique of slatter.

It's just strength, isn't it? It's just brute strength. But if, I mean, bring in Eli, I mean, what do you think of this, Eli? I mean, she made a point about the trans aspect of this. I would not want to see many large biological male, trans female power slappers. I have to say slapping women, would you? If your muscle mass is the same and it's the same weight, I don't see any issue. I mean, the whole sport is very uncomfortable.

But if everyone is consenting, I don't see any problem. Okay, that's interesting. You don't care that they can't defend themselves. If, I mean, I think you all have some points with, it's concerning that men might be watching women beat the shit out of each other. But at the same time, like, if these women are getting paid, treated well, and consenting to this, then they have that right to participate. Okay. I'd defeat Roger Waters. Now, he is one of the biggest rock stars in modern times.

He was one of the founders of Pink Floyd. he's made, you know, nearly a billion dollars from being a Pink Floyd writer, guitarist, superstar also has come out a lot of very inflammatory things and it was an extraordinary interview which ended up with him at one stage actually talking to himself. But Zubi, what was you interested about with this?

I was struck by a vast amount of comments and what it really said to me was on issues like Israel, Palestine, on Israel's like Ukraine, Russia, on issues like Trump, Biden, whatever, Brexit here, we've now reached a point where people are so embedded in their tribes, for want of a better phrase, on any of these issues, that they are simply not interested in hearing anything factual from the other side that may counter whatever they're saying, that we've reached a point when simply standing by your tribe in its entirety,

to the extent that Roger Waters at one stage was denying that a baby had been kidnapped, for example, by Hamas, because he hadn't had independent evidence to suggest it, when everybody knows that story is true and so on. But again, it comes back to the society we now living. How worried are you about this tribalism now really completely enveloping an old-fashioned sense and, well, let's get to the truth and facts here?

People doesn't have to care. Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen that specific interview, Pierce, but I think that rising tribalism has been a concern for a lot of people, both in the UK and in the USA and perhaps further than that, over the last 10 years in particular. I think this is really the default human state. I mean, tribalism is just something that exists within human nature. It's not inherently bad or inherently good,

but it can get to a very toxic level. And I think if there are not certain, certain rules and ideas that people can agree on. For example, no matter how much people disagree, we will not physically harm each other, right? No violence. When those lines start getting crossed, then that's when things can quite literally become

homicidal, let alone genocidal. And it's something that's within us. It's a dark part of our nature. And it's something that we always need to be careful of. I think it's important to allow people to speak freely and things can get passionate, things can get heated and fiery, but I just think there are

certain lines. We all need to agree as a society, as a culture, as nations, that we do not cross no matter how fiery it gets. Yeah, and one of those should be as to anti-Semitism. This is a clip from that interview where he tried to justify some of his positions on this. You can say anything that you want, but there's no evidence. Actually, there is extensive evidence. There is no evidence. There is no evidence. Sexual assault and rape. Well, there is. Okay, well, all right. Also, we know what Hamas broadcast on social media. Calm down. Roger. Roger. Calm down. Don't sink to his level. All right, I won't. What level?

But stop shouting. Stop shouting back. Sorry, Pierce. What were you saying? I mean, I thought it was completely insane moment. I never ever had a guest, even on these panels, who's just literally broken up to talk to themselves. What is he on and how do I get some? But look, I think this is why it's important to have free speech and to let people talk, because people can listen to that and they can form their own conclusions. If someone like that, if you say, oh, let's just cancel him, let's never platform him, let's not speak to him.

I agree, especially when they've got as to so many followers, as he does, so many fans around the world, I think it's important to shine a light on them and challenge them on these views. He's very rarely been challenged. He doesn't really do interviews where people challenge him. And then suddenly he was having to be challenged about not just Israel, Palestine, but also Ukraine, Russia and other issues. and every time I sort of cornered him about something, he would start talking to himself or distracting or doing something to get away from it.

But it was a really like interesting response I got. I would say for everyone who was saying, what is a lunatic, it was his madness. There were other people cheering him on. Like this was the most perfectly normal thing that ever watched. And he had a point. Yeah, but this is the nature of tribalism.

You don't really take a person in their entirety. You take sound bites that they say that you necessarily agree with as a member of that tribe. and then you run with it. So when you do in-depth interviews and you let them speak, they expose themselves and so you actually force members of that tribe

to question themselves in their own beliefs. I think the issue, particularly with tribalism that we're seeing these days, is the people, the leaders, the thought leaders in our society, are never willing to own up to when they're wrong. And as us as individuals are expected to constantly reflect on the positions that we hold

and actually say, actually, I'm happy to change my mind as a mature adult would do that's capable of rational thinking, why don't we expect the same from these thought leaders that amass huge following, that somehow influenced the public conversations on really important issues.

So I think this was a job well done, really. Interesting, he quoted the fact that his mother had said to him, James, you've got to read, read, read, read. So I've read, read, read, he said, and then I've worked out how to be right, effectively. And I said, well, has it crossed your mind that your idea of being right might actually be wrong? And he looked completely bemused at this whole notion.

But when I asked him what he read, for example, about the history of Israel and Judaism and so on, nothing. So it's not like he's reading. everything to reach an informed opinion. He's only reading stuff that validates and confirms his initial thoughts about stuff. That's not how a democracy works effectively.

I guess you're interviewing him like he's a politician. That's probably why that interview isn't necessarily going to get the result you want because really he's just coming at it as a human and saying, like, I don't want people murdered. I don't want a genocide, which I think we can probably all agree with. But yet

you're coming at it from a journalistic point of view. But I think that's valid because the position that we now put celebrities in is basically on par with politicians. We've stopped differentiating between a singer who has hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank that lives a completely different life from the average person to a politician that actually affects policy.

We now put them on the same level and we treat the opinions of Katie Perry and Rihanna about who we should vote for. It's the same as someone who's actually in politics, who's educated who works in political. And that's the problem. Well, they record if Taylor Swift came out and back to candidate in the election,

that candidate would win. Exactly, and that's a problem. She's such an enormous phenomenon. I mean, Eli, should celebrities, entertainers, singers, whatever, should they just stay out of politics? Or should everyone be allowed to have their opinion, even if they have a lot of followers and can influence impressionable young minds?

They should, I mean, they're entitled to their opinions, but they shouldn't be brought on as experts on any particular subject that they're not. It's, I mean, I'm an academic. It's frustrating to see singers giving opinions, about trans issues when they might not be informed or like the Israel-Palestine conflict that they don't really have an investment in.

Now, I agree with Roger here on most of his points, but the way that he presented it, he was clearly very uninformed and didn't really know what he was talking about. Right, but it seemed to me it was a little bit more insidious than that, is that he was very uninformed about anything on the other side. He was extremely well informed about anything

that was supportive of Palestine, but he was deliberately, in my estimation, deliberately ill-informed about anything to do with supporting Israel about any of it. And I've been critical of Israel on many things, but one thing you can't be critical about or skeptical about are the people who were kidnapped, because we all know who they were and who's been brought back and who is probably dead and who's still unaccounted for. These shouldn't be things we should argue about or question as he was doing. I haven't seen the evidence. It's that, well, You don't need to. Yeah, there's a genocide happening, and we have facts on our side for, I mean, for Palestinian liberation.

We don't need to deny or make up alternative facts, as the Trump administration would say, to make our point. We already have these truths on our side. So it doesn't really make any sense for him to say deny the kidnappings. That happened. That's a fact, and he should embrace it. Yeah. And actually, it makes things you then say more powerful if you're prepared to accept certain undeniable facts,

even if it's not what you think is pro your side. The next thing we're going to cover, which is the hawk twa girl. Now, for those you haven't followed this phenomenon, you've got to do it properly, Peers. How do you say? Hachter. Oh, God. Let's take a look at the original clip, which has gone viral around the world,

and made this girl very famous or infamous. Let's take a look. What's one move in bed that makes a man go crazy every time? Oh, you got to give him that huck, too, and spit on that thing. You get me? I don't get you. I think you got to demonstrate. Hock, dude, spit on it.

Spit on it. I believe what she's referring to, Zubi, is oral sex. Let's not dance around the houses here. What's interesting has been the reaction. She's become a celebrity. very, very quickly. Shaq O'Neill was hanging out with her. Country music stars had her on stage.

She's giving big interviews. This goes back to what you were saying about where society is going. Andy Warhol warned that one day everyone would be famous for 15 minutes. Are we now living that dystopian life? Yeah, we are. And, you know, Pierce, I know these stories

are particularly selected, but it's all just degeneracy, ultimately. I'm not here trying to be some type of kill. or Bible thumber or something. Like I enjoy fun and entertainment as much as most people do. But I just think as a culture we need to be, it's just odd what we are celebrating and perhaps also what we're not celebrating. It seems like we're kind of in this rush to the bottom. So I don't have super strong feelings about this. I just think it's reflects. I think it's just

a reflection of where we are as a society that it's managed to gain this level of steam and this much monetization and this much attention. I think in a more sane time or in a more sane world, it would have been a couple of chuckles and some memes online, and then it would just sort of quickly move on to something more important. I mean, you made a good point. You tweeted. I was just thinking,

hawktois is the type of thing that would have been a massive sensation in the fictional version of the USA depicted in idiocracy. And then it hit me. And I thought that was spot on. It's like, really, that's where things are heading, right? Filled by social media, which makes everybody famous when they do dumb stuff. Yeah, it's just where we are. And look, I know nothing about this young lady besides this situation.

But I don't know how she's going to handle this, but it's probably not the thing you want to be sort of labeled as and known as for the rest of your lifetime. And that's easily what it could be. There are people who have just been turned into memes at this point, and they kind of live with that for the rest of their life. life. And I don't think it's a great situation to be in, but, you know, I guess we'll see how it comes out. Particularly as a woman. I know, I know, like, probably every guy on this panel

is not wanting to say it, but it's, it's, it's crass and it's tacky and it's classless. And I think us normalizing women, I mean, I wouldn't have answered that question, quite frankly. I mean, it was all those things. I think it's completely unlaadylike. I have to be honest. I'm not going to lie. When I watched it, it did make me laugh. I mean, it was, it was outrageous. It was crass. It was all those things. It was also funny. I mean, I don't want us to all to lose as a society our collective sense of humor about what is just a, you know, a ridiculously outrageous funny moment.

You know what I mean? Yeah, but I don't, I think there's something to be said about women not behave, not feeling like they have to behave in the way that male comedians do to be funny. Like, you don't have to be crass as a female to be funny. Okay. She's not a comedian, she's just a person.

Why do we have to withhold ourselves then? Say that again, Eli. Should we have to put herself to a higher standard than the male comedians. Well, funny enough, if a man had said that about... Actually, yes. Well, if a man had said something similar about a woman, I don't think it would have got the same traction.

I think that man would have been cancelled pretty quickly. And I think probably you, Eli, and you, James would have led the cancellation charged for this disgusting misogynist ratbag saying something disgusting about women. So there is a double standard, but not the way you may be... Well, I don't think she said anything disgusting about men in that clear, did she.

No, if a man does that kind of thing... Well, I do. I often do a hook tour to her to women. You do a hook tour to women. No, I'm not straight, so no. But I'm sure you... I don't understand why everyone is clutching their pearls today. Because it's gross and it's unladylike.

She's free. She's just living her sexuality. There's nothing wrong with just being yourself. I do think that's a valid point. There's nothing wrong with this. And the reason it's fine for her to do it is because she's not embarrassed. She doesn't have any shame and she's happily...

That's a problem. We used to have shame in society. She's not going to be embarrassed by that. regulate people's behavior. We used to have shame. Go back to the Victorian times, Esther, if that's what you want to do. Why not? Because I'm sorry. Women had more self-respect. I'm sorry. You don't need to sit there and say that the way that you keep a man happy is to spit on his penis.

Sorry, what? What would you rather she said? Oh, cook him dinner. I'm not answering that question because it's none of your business. If I could just jump into car things down. She did appear on a podcast and she was asked if she was asked if she was, she would haught twa. How is it? Hock t'all.

Donald Trump or not. This is how she replied. Donald Trump. No, absolutely not. No. Uh-uh. It's a no for me. Okay, it's no.

What was interesting was, people completely misconstrued that clip and thought she was talking about whether she would vote for it. Right. And so everyone on the conservative right led by that goon, what's her name, Laura Luma, when our first, after this girl and started abusing her. Haile Welsh, her name is called her a Biden supporter. It was actually nothing to do with any of that.

She was actually talking about hawk twas and Trump. I would not vote for, so those two things interact. James. James. We have a bit of music to go with the hawk twa. Let's have a look at whatever it is. Oh, you gotta give him that hawk tweed on that thing. There was a phrase that struck a court

and took the internet by storm. A phrase for when she's spitting right on to you A dude said this to these two chicks What always brings a man to bliss And she said speed up the two You know what I actually want to interview Hulk two again Can we get her on?

I actually want to interview her She's one of the famous people on the planet right now It's quite extraordinary But Zubi where is society going with this? I mean, are we going to get, I kind of agree bafflingly with James on this, is that you don't want to completely get so po-faced,

you can't just have fun moments involving people talking about sex. However, and isn't it interesting, however, what social media now does it, amplifies things globally very, very quickly, and does that in the end have a corrosive effect on the standards in society? And is that where we want to go? Yeah, it's a great question, Pierce.

I don't think it's where we want to go. And like I said, I'm not a killjoy. I think it was funny, right? It's something that is funny. The thing that is bewildering is just the level of the response. I think that's the thing that is very bewildering. And look, I think as a society, we just need a semblance of balance. I think that's something that strikes me on all of these issues that we've talked about here

and many other things going on. I just think that there's an absence of balance. Everything needs to get pushed either all the way to the left or all the way to the right. I mean that both politically and metaphorically. And with most things, there is a sensible middle where we can have true decency and equality and fairness. And we were kind of at that point, I want to say, in the late 90s or perhaps early, early to mid thousands. And it's just kind of overshot on every single issue, on racial issues, gender issues, sex issues, so on. You can chart it really when cell phones came in.

when the internet began and when social media began because before that there wasn't the ability to be a kind of narcissistic exhibitionist and get much of an audience. You'd have to do something completely outrageous on a national stage to make national media 30, 40 years ago.

But now you can very quickly just put something on social media and be a global sensation within half an hour. That's what's changed. The ability to lead the 15-minute life that Warhol said. Eli, you want to say something? Yeah, I was just going to say also. I would think we should blame this less on the individual

and more on marketing, branding, mass media that's trying to push people to create brands rather than work on their own lives. I mean, we are constantly told that we're supposed to be self-marketing and self-branding by our education system, by schools, by media and business. And I think this is a big part of it that speaks to a broader issue.

But she wasn't really doing what she did. I don't think for any self-promotional branding. She literally just said the first thing that came into her head. Well, she did show up on talk shows afterwards. She did. She made the most of her fame. I don't think her motivation for saying what she said was driven by any sense of becoming a brand. I don't think she thought for a moment anyone would probably ever see this.

That's what's interesting is that these things can catch fun. Now, I think to her credit, as I think you said, Eli, was it that this, or was it you, Jones, that she doesn't have any shame, right? Which is, to her credit, if she's not ashamed by it and she's talking about having sex, then why are we getting so both-faced, I guess? Because we used to be a society with shame. Yeah, it's not a good thing to watch a disintegration of shame and standards for people, standards of behaviour and morality and decency.

I don't think that's a good thing. is responsible for that in a way as well. That whole culture. I mean, I just genuinely believe everyone will be fully naked on the internet within the next 20 years. So, Peter's looking forward to seeing your nudes. Well, someone told me you brought something with you today. Oh, my God, yes.

Well, you were talking about spanking, so I thought you might like to see me getting spanked. Oh, my God. This is me at LA Pride last year. Oh, my God. Absolutely not. Is that you? That's me.

Oh, my God. What are you doing, Bar? What are I watching? Is this a pride event? Yeah, that was... Of course. Of course it. L.A. Pride. Does that make you proud?

That's me in the fetish zone. No wonder you stood by Hortoir girl. Nothing sexual happening there at all. I'm just enjoying a new experience. It was wonderful. Really? Yeah, and I didn't leave with any marks. I'm contacting HR after this.

I think this is all part of the... I also really wanted to show that. Degeneration of society. Let me go. to another subject, raw dogging, which I must admit I'd never heard of and feared the worst. It's not what we think about dogging, which is a very British phrase involving people who get up to all sorts of things in public places. It's actually called raw dogging, flying raw or bear back flying. What it entails is spending time on long haul flights with no films, no music,

no sleep, no snacks, no distractions, no phones, nothing once you're in the cabin. You literally do nothing. And people on TikTok have begun posting their personal records. One user at Ole Woudini, a Manchester-based DJ and producer, wrote, just raw dog to seven-hour flight, new personal best, no headphones, no movie, no water, nothing. Incredible. The power of my mind knows no bounds. Esther, have we lost our minds?

Yes, we have. Yes, we have, especially because there shouldn't be a trend. First of all, that person, I don't think raw dogs, ugh, anything, because he had his headphones in. So I'm assuming he was playing something, unless he was using it to cancel out the music. But also, why do we have to make trends out of the mundane? If you just want a flight to relax and not be distracted

and just to rest, albeit with your eyes open, why is this now a trend? But I once interviewed the Dalai Lama Zubi, several times, actually, and he doesn't watch movies, doesn't watch television, doesn't use phones, doesn't do any of these things on a daily basis every day. and he's one of the most serene, happy guys

I don't think he's the happiest. I've ever met in my life. Are we discussing the Dalai Lama raw dogging? Because if we're going to talk about that, I mean, I have a lot to say. He's not the happiest. I can't tell you that much. But Zubi, here's my point really. Is it should we be against a phenomenon which actually takes us back

to maybe a gentler, nicer time where we weren't consumed by having to do things? We could just be at peace with ourselves with a bit of self-serenity. Yeah, a couple of thoughts. on this. I mean, firstly, calling it raw dogging or bear backing, I think that follows on my, from my previous point of just degeneration of society. The second thing I would say is on a deeper level, I think that young men lack a lot of meaning and purpose, and we don't really, as a society, have any rights of passage for young men. So I think that the fact that this has even become a phenomenon

is kind of hinting at that point that simply doing what's essentially a dopamine detox on a flight is now something to be celebrated. And then the last point that I would make is, I think the fact that you are filming yourself doing it and putting it on social media somewhat flies against the main concept. Yeah, exactly. There ain't much raw dogging about filming yourself

doing something when you see you're not doing anything. James Barr, I'd imagine raw dogging is nothing new for you. I just feel so comfortable discussing this with you. But listen, if you want to catch a flight together and raw dog in the sky, Pins, I don't think it's possible to think of anything I'd rather less do. Eli, do you have any thoughts on raw dogging on planes? I mean, I can't imagine not getting my sweet, sweet dopamine hit from my phone every five seconds.

So if anything, I'm impressed. It seems like people are trying to see something new and trying to experiences outside of the everyday, just constantly on our phones. And I see nothing wrong with that. I want to end by asking all of you, all four of you, which has been the most distasteful clip we've played today? Is it hawk-tois, girl? Is it the power slapping? Or is it James Barr being spanked at L.A. Pride?

Zubi, over to you. Wow. This is a tough one. Which is the one you least want to see again? I would say personally the power slap just because of the sadistic nature of it. Okay, Eli? Yeah, I'll see that one. Probably The Hawk, too.

Esther? I have to agree. There's something about just particularly as a woman seeing women behave that way that just makes my skin roll. All right, but just by default, that means all of you were more comfortable watching James Bar being spanked at L.A. Price. He was close. He was wearing boxing. Can I just say, for the record, that was by far for me the most distasteful. That tells us a lot, I think, Piers.

This, I, I, I, yeah, it's actually making me come out and wheels this. In what? This is probably how you ended up. Anyway, thank you to my panel. We covered a lot of stuff there. You moved around with great ease and enthusiasm. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.