Piers Morgan Uncensored - ‘Putin Should Use NUKES’ Piers Morgan vs Russian Oligarch + Elon Musk Ex: ‘He Needs HELP’

Episode Date: October 20, 2026

The relationship between Washington and Kyiv is entering increasingly uncertain territory, as Donald Trump’s approach to Russia raises fresh questions about the future of the war in Ukraine. In an exclusive interview with Piers Morgan last week, President Zelensky offered a stark assessment of America’s shifting position, warning that his country risks losing the support of its most important ally. A decision by the Trump administration to waive sanctions on Russian energy has added to concerns over the direction of US policy.  At the same time, a dispute involving Elon Musk’s Starlink satellite network has opened another front in the deteriorating relationship. Zelensky has alleged that restrictions on the service left Ukraine more vulnerable to Russian attacks, while Musk has denied responsibility. Reports about the involvement of the White House have since raised further questions about the extent of American influence over Ukraine’s military capabilities. With tensions mounting between Zelensky and senior figures in the Trump administration, the consequences could reach well beyond the battlefield. As the United States reassesses its commitment to Kyiv, Ukraine and its European allies face difficult questions about the future of the war, the strength of the Western alliance and the price of a peace deal with Moscow. First, Piers Morgan is joined by Elon Musk’s former girlfriend Ashley St. Clair and Alex Gibney, the director of ‘Musk’ - a film that premiered at the Venice Film Festival, to discuss his potential legal battle with the trillionaire. Then, Piers goes head-to-head with oligarch and media entrepreneur Konstantin Malofeev and invites his panel of US air force veteran and host of Max Afterburner, Ryan Bodenheimer, retired Green Beret and host of Speak The Truth, Matt Tardio, and former US Navy intelligence officer and author of the new book “socialist revolution”, Jack Posobiec, to discuss the latest on the relationship between the US, Russia and Ukraine. (00:00:00) Introduction (00:02:15) Konstantin Malofeev  (00:22:05 Matt Tardio, Ryan Bodenheimer and Jack Posobiec (00:48:21) ‘Musk’ director Alex Gibney and Ashley St Clair  (00:53:26) Ashley St Clair on being Elon’s ex (00:59:37) Elon ‘needs to get help’ (01:03:18 Ian Bremmer Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The new Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid is the most fuel-efficient cross-track yet. That means less time filling your tank and more time filling your day. More court time. More ride time. More lake time. More camp time. More go time. The new 2027 Subaru Cross-Trek hybrid. Consumer Reports top-rated subcompact SUV. Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. I asked you to say one critical thing about Vladimir Putin, and you're too scared to do it.

I believe that he's not right, that he's not using our nuclear weapon now. So your main criticism of your president is he's not nuking everybody. Wow. So unprofessional. Typical Russian response, that's just an insight probably into also how Vladimir Putin's brain is working. Let's talk about you being a propagandist. You want to negotiate with terrorists. You're an idiot.

You're an asshole. And you're lying through your teeth. You're a propagandist, warmonger, Matt. Do you ever talk to him? We do not speak right now. When you think about the good side of Elon, what would you say? The good side right now is my optimism that one day he gets help. What does he need help for, do you think?

That's a question for his doctors. This image that he wants to cultivate of him being a genius looking out for the good of the planet, it's just bollocks. Coming up in this special edition of Unsensit, I'll talk to the Russian oligarch who's calling for Vladimir Putin to nuke Ukraine to end the war. Ian Bremen gives me his expert analysis on the extraordinary Starlink saga. Elon Musk denies responsibility for throttling the service at the cost of civilian lives. Notice reporting says he personally brought the idea to President Trump,

and I'll hear from the director of a new feature documentary, which Musk would rather you didn't see, and from the ex-girlfriend, he'd rather not see either. The whole world has been reacting to the interview given by Ukraine's President Zelenskyy six days ago to this show in this very studio. It was a moment it became clear that the gloves are now off. Do you feel betrayed by what has been happening? Really, yes, really, between us.

But it's a little bit more complicated than just my emotions or my feelings. Yes, it depends not on me. I mean, our country has to survive. and we count on our real partners, strategic partners, United States. And President Trump, they wanted us not to attack. This, my opinion, was, it's not fair. Well, with the Russian perspective on the current crisis,

I'm now going to be joined by the oligarch and media entrepreneur, Constantine Malfeev, who is under sanctions in the UK and US for backing separatists in Crimea. Mr. Malaville, thank you very much indeed for joining me. Thank you. There is a view from certainly most of Europe that President Trump, in appearing to side with Vladimir Putin over this diesel deal has betrayed Ukraine and he's effectively sucking up to a Russian dictator at the worst possible time. What do you say to that? One question.

You made so many determinations in one question. So I have first to answer that I do not believe that President Putin, the elected president, which has a big difference to Zelensky, which has not elected last two years. President Putin is not dictator. President Putin is supported by more than 70 percent of Russian population for many years. That first. Second, when you're talking about betraying, that means again that looks like Trump and Zelensky wasn't this sort of deal, and after Trump betrayed Zelensky and promised him something. I didn't hear anything like Trump said about his loyalty to President Zelensky.

From the first day of his second turn in the White House, as I remember, President Trump, I did not trust Zelensky. And we looked at series with many episodes when Trump said about Zelensky different things, and normally nothing was so good about Zelensky. It could be bad or worse. So I do not think that Trump could betray Zelensky. That Zelensky can betray Trump,

because Trump is a hegemon of Western world, and the U.S., of course, a superpower of West. Western world. So it's only him who could be betrayed. Okay, but let's pick you up on some of the things you've said there. One, Vladimir Putin is still in charge because no one dares stand up to him electorally or any other way. And you know that and I know that. The only reason Zelensky hasn't had an election since 2024 when he should have done is because Vladimir Putin illegally invaded his country. Seven million Ukrainians had to leave the country as a consequence

and many, many more are fighting on the front line. That's the reality. You know, Vladimir Putin, you can frame him as an elected president, but he's basically a dictator who terrifies off all his opposition. So let's put things into some perspective. Let me just talk to you, though, about the war itself. What possible justification did Vladimir Putin have for illegally invading a sovereign democratic country

as he did in Ukraine nearly five years ago. Pierce, you are professional journalists. Let's again return to. I disagree that Putin is dictator because he's not. His elected president supported by his population. So please be a professional. And he's not illegal.

He's not under any... Well, he does jail. He jails his political opponents, isn't he? And they end up dying in mysterious circumstances. So it's not quite the free and fair election system that we operate, say, in the UK. Oh, no. Oh, no, listen. You know, let's talk about UK election then.

When do you have a democratic election? Ask your Scottish independent party. Or please ask Tony Robertson or any other your opposition leaders in your country. Do they really believe that you have a democratic process in UK? Ask United States. President Trump himself was a democracy in here? 2020 when he was not elected, so-called. Well, how did he win in 2020?

How did he win in 2020? Do not tell us about democracy. Do not teach us. We are a thousand years old civilization. We are big country. So plinos do not teach us. We are not Zelensky. We was not, you know, become president only because West we want us to be somebody.

No, you become president in Russia because you intimidate. and imprison your political opponents. That's obviously what Putin's done for many decades, as you know. As a British establishment do this with their opposition leaders. Well, actually, they don't, do they? When was the last opposition leader here who got imprisoned with political views? Oh, so many. Tell me about this rapist gangs that must blame, for example.

Where are these people who were prosecutors and who didn't do anything? Sorry, which political leader in Britain was imprisoned for their political views for being an opposition leader that people didn't like? Oh, you know, last time who was there? Tony Robbins on the second person in his kingdom organization. I just read in newspapers. He was in jailed. Just recently, when I was preparing for this interview, I just read,

look at this. Or he's not opposition. Who is he? If he is extremists, we have our own extremists in our country. Who are you talking? You're not talking about... Hang on, just to be clear.

You're not talking about Tommy Robinson, are you? What? You're talking about Tommy Robinson? Yes, of course. You think he's a political party leader? No. As our opposition... Let me give you a little...

As our opposition in the country, as you said, are not political party leaders. Let me give you a little lesson in Tommy Robinson. One, it's not his real name. Did you know that? Okay, yes. Secondly, he's been jailed for many, many different things from fraud to football hooliganism, to contempt of court,

to myriad different crimes that he served prison sentences for. He's not the free, the poor little oppressed freedom fighter. Do you seem to think he is? Pierce. Our so-called opposition leader, how you call them, was imprisoned as well, not for their political activity. So it's very the same. Okay. Well, let's go back to Ukraine.

Give me the justification for the illegal invasion of Ukraine. What do you mean by illegal invasion? You illegally invaded as a country, a sovereign democratic country that isn't yours since the mid-90s, since the breakup of the Soviet Union. You illegally invaded it and started killing people. No. Yes? That's exactly what happened.

No, according to international law, that was very different. Really? Yes. You didn't invade Ukraine? Of course not. What did you do? We protected our allies, Donis People Republic, and Lugan People Republic, which had a military alliance with Russia, and they were invaded by Ukraine.

How can you say that with a straight face? What a lot of bullshit. Come on. Constantine, it's me you're talking to. You're not talking to one of your chums down there. Listen, you're a journalist. I'm a lawyer. I am talking about international law.

If you're a lawyer, you should understand the concept of international law. Obviously, Russia illegally invaded Ukraine. That is beyond any one's doubt. What does it mean? What does it mean obviously that you just mean? Well, obviously, everybody apart from, everybody apart from people who slavishly support Vladimir Putin, like you. Oh, of course. Everybody who is sending, you know, money to Zelensky

and getting back payments, who are corrupted European politicians, all of that. All of them believe like that. But this is not objective facts. Well, it is objective facts, actually. You can prove that Zelensky is corrupt personally, can you? Of course. Well, go on then. Prove it.

Of course. You know, for this, we have to allow people who live from Ukraine already, right now. Like, for example, his former foreign minister, who is now in US, his former speaker, his press secretary, everybody who already left Zelensky office, they are telling openly in the US press about this. That's not me. That's his team. Can I ask you something, Constit, how often do you talk to Vladimir Putin? How often do you talk to Vladimir Putin?

Oh, not so often at all. When was the last time? I have not his close as aliens. When was the last time? Oh, no. I am just a private person, independent, and the owner of the last independent media in Russia. You think you're...

So if you're genuinely independent as a media figure... Okay, great. So let's get into criticizing Putin, because he's your president. Every independent media person I know in the world wouldn't hesitate to criticize leader of their country over the things they don't agree with. But what things have Vladimir Putin's done in the last, say, 20 years?

Do you disagree with? I disagree with Minsk Treaty in year 14. In year 14, when West leaders, such as Olaan and Merkel, lied to Vladimir Putin, where he signed after 16 hours of negotiations in Minsk with Poroshenko, last president of Ukraine, they signed an agreement. And Ukraine never, never executed, even started. in Poroshenka time and Zelensky time. I was against this.

So you criticised Vladimir Putin personally for that, do you? Yes, of course. You can see this malpressed. Was he stupid or naive or what was he? He told that he was betrayed, as you said earlier. What do you think? Was he stupid? Was he naive?

No, I do not think like this. I think that he gave arrest. What critical word would you? What critical word would you use about him? What critical word would you use about Putin? You're asking me for this for work. What do you say he made a big mistake? So you really want...

So what critical word would you use about Vladimir Putin? Criticise him. That we never have to listen to the West and believe, West and trust West. Sorry, I said what criticism would you have about Putin himself? Oh, this was criticism. for something to do, not because I want just to say about person, but words. Can you think of anything? I'm not in show business.

Can you think of anything? No, sure, but can you think of anything negative to say about President Putin? When? Right now? Yes. Come on. You can't, can you? Yeah, no.

Tell me something about your king. Of course you can. You're independent. Tell about your king. Oh, I criticize every one of our leaders. No, right now. I criticize our leaders all the time, because you know why? I live in a free democratic country.

I live in a free democratic country. You know, as a Russian oligarch, as long as you keep free, as long as you keep supporting Putin, you'll be fine. The moment you take him on, the moment you criticize him, the moment you take on Putin directly, you're done. You know it and I know it. Look at all your predecessors. I believe that Putin, the best,

leader that we had. Of course you do. Of course you do. Because if you didn't say that publicly, you get rid of you. No, listen, I'm not getting any money from government. I asked you to say one critical thing about Vladimir Putin, and you're too scared to do it. Immediately after you would say about your king. Tell me, please.

About my king? Yes. Well, he's not the president of the country. He's just the king. Come on. Come on. I can criticize my prime minister to as much as you like. Your prime minister has no any power.

You know, tell about the king. You think the king has power in my country? Yes. What power do you think he has? Just tell something about your king. What power do you think my king has? Explain to me. No, tell something about your king.

You don't understand our system. He has no power. Okay. And what does it mean? He has no power of constant. You are saying the most powerful person, the most powerful person is. You are saying that you're free. The most powerful person in Britain is Andy Burnham, the Prime Minister.

Right? Now, your most powerful person is Vladimir Putin. You're trying to prove to me that you're this independent-minded media figure, the only, your words, the only independent figure in Russian media. So I said, right, well, let's test your independers. Tell me one critical thing about Vladimir Putin. And you won't, and you can't, because you know the clip would then go around the world, and Putin would see it. And Putin would see it and you'd be done. You know it and I know it. And that's the reality of your supposed independence.

In fact, what you do is you agree with everything he does. Say it to me something about your king. Please, do this. Why not? What do you want me to do? Why you wouldn't say anything about your king? I've criticized my king for 30 years. Right now, tell me.

Right now. Okay, let me think of, I'll say, First of all, he shouldn't be funding his brother Andrew's lifestyle. I think that's wrong. I think he should change his decision and strip Megan and Harry of their titles. I think the way he treated his ex-wife, the late Princess Diana, was wrong. And I criticized him at the time for it, and I would now. So there are many things I would be very happy to be on record right now

criticizing King Charles Ababar. But to repeat, he has no actual power in my... country. Your most powerful person, because you don't have a king, is President Putin. Now is my turn. And I'm simply asking you, tell me something critical about Vladimir Putin. Okay. Okay. This is my turn. You did what I ask you. Now is my turn. Okay. First, I believe he was wrong when he trusted NATO 20 years ago. That's not a criticism of Putin, though, is it? Second, in Minsk, in year 14, I do not think that he was right to listen to Olaan and

Merk and believe and trust them. And third, I believe that he's not right, that he's not using our nuclear weapon now. You want him to use nuclear weapons now? Yes, and I'm criticizing him for this. So your main criticism of your president is he's not nuking everybody. Wow. Where do you want him to use a nuclear weapon? for this war to come to the end.

You want him to use a nuclear weapon in Ukraine? To stop killing. So to stop killing, you want him to use a nuclear weapon that will kill hundreds of thousands of people? Of course not. We are not Westerners. We're not Americans. What would you do then? We do not have to use it like they use this in Hiroshima and another side. How would you use your nuclear weapon? What would you do?

They have to tell, ultimate, for 72 hours or something, in their places in West Ukraine, where your weapons are going to kill our people and our soldiers and our civilians. And after a civilian, civil people would live from these areas because we would give them a time. We are Christians. We are good people. They are our brothers.

There's slaves. We do not want to do that. Good people don't invade their neighbors' homes, do they? We want to stop you helping our bloody brother war to continue. We want this war to stop. I remember people saying that, you know, when the last time people told us to stop getting involved was when the Germans invaded Poland in 1939. And we were told to keep our noses out of it, not our business. But actually, what we realized was that Adolf Hitler wouldn't stop with Poland.

He would carry on attacking other European countries. And so it fell to migrate country, along with other allies, to stand up and take on this dictator. And I'm getting very similar vibes now where people like you who run very influential media sections in Russia want him to start tracking nuclear weapons around Ukraine. Unbelievable. Do you remember at this war who lost 27 million people? Yeah. UK, US, who did this? Russia did this, Soviet Union. Yeah.

And you are blaming us for this. No, no. No, no. I'm blaming... Oh, you don't know history or what? Just to be clear, I'm blaming you, Russia, for the illegal invasion of Ukraine, the slaughtering Ukrainians illegally, committing mass murder on the Ukrainian people with no justification whatsoever. It's a sovereign, democratic, independent country. You know it, and I know it, and you shouldn't have invaded.

And I want the European Union to stand up together, and if America's starting to wobble because President Trump wants to do dirty diesel deals with Vladimir Putin, I want the Europeans to step up and help the Ukrainians defeat Russia's invasion and get you guys out of their country.

It's not your land, it's not your country. That's why the Soviet Union was broken up. That was the whole point of it. And you're just ignoring that because your boss, Vladimir, wants to have it all back. Well, you know what? That's not how it works. So you and I will have to disagree.

Constantine Malfi, I appreciate you. May I ask you a question? Go on. Last question. Sure. Did you invite me to, for me, to tell what I'm thinking, or to tell me what you are thinking? To be honest with me, with you, Constantine, you lost me when you started saying your big problem with Putin

is he's not currently using nuclear weapons. At that point, I realized you might be, as we would say in the UK, one screw loose of a full toolkit. So unprofessional. Thank you. Thank you. You're disappointed me.

Well, you know what? In a way, when you said you wanted Putin to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine, you kind of disappointed me, Constantine. Just a little bit, a little bit disappointed in you for advocating the use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine. People can make their own minds up whether me saying what I said about you

is more or less disappointing than what you've said about advocating the use of nuclear weapons which would slaughter hundreds of thousands of people. And we'll leave that cliffhanger for viewers to work out who's been more disappointing. This is your show, your rules, and I understand that it will be your last award. Thank you for inviting me. Sorry that I disappointed you, but believe me, you would be even more disappointed

if you would not stop your military propaganda. Okay, I'll take your threat in the spirit of which it's intended. Thank you very much, indeed. Thank you. The new Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid is the most fuel efficient cross-track yet. That means less time filling your tank and more time filling your day. More court time. More ride time.

More lake time. More camp time. More go time. The new 2027 Subaru Cross-Trek hybrid. Consumer Reports top-rated subcompact SUV. Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer reports as non-endores products or services. Well, joining me to debate all this is Matt Tardier,

retired Green Beret, host of Speak the Truth, Ryan Bodenheimer, U.S. Air Force veteran and host of Max Afterburner, and Jack Posobit, the former Navy intelligence officer. Jack Posobit, let me start with you. Interesting interview with one of the leading media oligarchs in Russia right now. You think we should be starting to, Russia's to start nuking Ukraine to bring this to an end. Your thoughts? My gosh, well, my first thought, of course,

is that I agree from one perspective that I wish I had nuclear weapons to use on all of my enemies as well. That would be just so much better. But no, I think that incredible interview to say the least appears. And I think it goes to show that, yeah, I don't know, you know, the guy's background or what is, you know, audience viewership there is in Russia. But, you know, certainly they have, I guess they have a hard line too. Well, they may have a hard line, Matt Tardier, but the hard line sounds completely insane to most right-minded people. What did you make of what you were listening to? Yeah, I mean, that's a typical Russian response.

They don't want to admit to shooting. I mean, I heard him say that they ended up, you know, moving into the DPR and the LPR in order to protect the airspace, you know, from the Ukrainians, from bombing the Russian, quote, citizens, because they declared that area to be a Russian state after they had a fake election over there. regardless, they ended up shooting down a commercial airliner back in like, what was it, 2014, killing a bunch of Americans, Europeans, everybody else, using a Buk missile system. So that within itself falls flat on space. In addition to the reasons that they're then in the first place, I mean, you know, Putin's change a stance on a denotification of Ukraine and all sorts of crap. You know, they got their butts kicked back over to the zero line and they haven't been able to move since. Well, so that's very interesting to me.

I mean, on the actual military side of this, you know, I've got lots of military in my family. And they were kind of disagreeing at you when this all started in 2022 about how it would play out. You know, my brother-in-law's an army colonel, my brother's former army colonel. So they were interesting with different views. But my brother's view, for example, was that he just couldn't see a way that Ukraine could possibly win, that Russia were just too big, too powerful, and would have just too deep pockets, two deep patience, that eventually they would win. Is that still automatically the case?

Because it seems to me that Russia has hit a line they can't get past. Obviously, there's enormous human carnage on both sides, but predominantly Russian, actually. They're not making any more inroads in. And it seems the inroads are being made by Ukraine into Russian mainland. I mean, that's just my observation. Am I right to think that? Yeah. So Nate Vance is a good buddy of mine.

He gave me an analogy once, and I checked it, and it's true. If you were to take a snail and put it over, on the Russian border when Russia launched their invasion in 2022, not, you know, the invasion of Crimea in 2014 and the invasion of the DPR and the LPR back then. But if you were to put a snail on the front line in 2022 on the Russian border and it just started snailing its way across the country, that thing would be like over in the UK by now. That, I mean, they are literally moving below a snail's pace. For every square kilometer that they've owned, they've lost over a thousand people. I want you to think about that. Over a thousand dead Russians for them to take a square kilometer.

And so you sit back and you tell me that Russia is winning this war somehow. It's absolute lunacy, especially for Ukraine to be defending their border. Can you crane win it, though, in the way? Absolutely. I mean, I had President Zelenskyy sitting in my studio last week who believes they can. How can they win, Matt? Logistics. So logistics drive war, right?

This is why Hitler made a huge mistake invading Russia during World War II in the middle of the winter, and they ended up eating their own. You know, these guys were high on amphetamines trying to, and they still couldn't over. run it. It was a combination of that and the US-Lend lease program that actually ended up, you know, having Hitler lose that portion, us giving weapons over the Russians in order to have them defeat the Nazis. So right now, with the targeting of the oil refineries, what we've actually been seeing. And not diesel refineries, let's be clear, because that's going to come up here in

just a minute. There's no such thing as diesel refineries, as Trump just stated. But, and that's for a political reason, right? Let's be clear about that. But they have been targeting these diesel or, excuse me, these oil refineries up over inside of Russia to a great extent, to the point where the diesel that's actually on the road is destroying Russian vehicles, and they've been having to ration what's actually going to the front lines. So that logistical drive is actually what's killing them, not to mention the vast overturn. When we start talking about over a million casualties and soldiers morale, that's really where this starts to come in as winter sets in.

Crimea has been completely and totally cut off. Completely and totally cut off. You look at the videos of the people that are living over in Crimea and what their life is like, Crimea is going to collapse. They can't even get out of there if they want to try. Was it two weeks ago we had over, what was it, 250? 300 Russians ended up surrendering to Ukraine. And as this winter sets in, those winters over there are brutal. You know, I've been to a lot of cold places in my life, lived in the mountains of Afghanistan,

tons of places. But the winter in Ukraine, by far, hands down, worst winter I've ever enrolled. Those Russians are going to be absolutely miserable because they can't get the supplies. Do you know what this like life expectancy of a Russian is just to move to the front line to get around those drones? We got like a 90% chance to getting killed or wounded, just moving their butts up over the front line by these drones. It's completely and totally reshaped the way this warfare is taking place in near-peer conflicts.

Right. So Ryan Bodohamber, welcome back to Unsenzo. I mean, this makes it to me all the more inexplicable that President Trump would choose this moment to apparently align the United States with Vladimir Putin. I mean, as an American, are you comfortable with that?

Hey, Pierce. Hey, gentlemen. Great to see you all today. Well, first of all, that last interview, Pierce, that kind of gives you an insight into a lot of the Russian mindset with Ukraine right now. So that's what we're up against, you know, people that literally think nuclear weapons are a good option. And that's just an insight probably into also how Vladimir Putin's brain is working as well.

But what I would say is this is an America first policy. It's not President Trump aligning with Ukraine. This is trying to ease some of the damage to the farmers in the United States. And I know that's hard for people around the world to stomach. And you did a great interview with Zelensky as well, but you compared what was going on with President Trump and the diesel deals to appeasement, which I think is categorically false.

I'll tell you what I think. Let me just finish real quick. Well, yeah, the point I would make on that, though, is simply that I think it's all just, it's all an illusion that Trump's kind of create that somehow the rising prices of diesel in America directly impacting, particularly farmers and so on, is because of Zelensky and Ukraine,

when the rest of the world knows, it's actually down to the very flawed, war with Iran, which has sent energy prices generally around the world skyrocketing. That's the real reason. It's not Zelensky and Ukraine. I would say that it's both. I would say it's both that are causing the increase in prices, but I do think your point is correct. The Persian Gulf is obviously, it's a global market. Diesel is the global market. Yeah, it's a global market. How many countries for how many years has Russian oil been allowed to be sold on that global market? I want to go back to Pierce real quick. I want you to defend your point

on it being an American first policy. I want you to defend your point on it being an American first policy, because that's a damn lie. An American first policy is trying to end the United States military. Okay, let Ryan spell out his thing. You had your turn to talk. Give me a chance to speak. So the America First policy is trying to end a war that's been going on for years. So with this war, people are dying, right?

Around thousands of people are dying. So at this point, if we can end it, it's going to be better for everyone. But appeasement was in World War II when Chamberlain tried to get Hitler to not invade. So now we're years into this conflict. President Trump's basically negotiating with a terrorist with Vladimir Putin. I mean, his tactics are terrorist tactics. So if we're trying to actually bring an end to this, both sides might need to talk. And I know a lot of people can't stomach that.

But if you're trying to end a conflict that seems to have no end in sight, you're going to have to take desperate measures. And sometimes that means negotiating with terrorists. So this isn't Chamberlain. This isn't World War II. This is trying to end a war that is senseless and pointless. And by the way, Russia controls 19% of Ukraine right now. So I'm pro-Ukraine, but at the end of the day, we've got to end this war.

And so ending it before it began would have been the best option, obviously. So if you want to go back to that appeasement in 2021, this war never should have happened. So it all goes back to American military showing strength. The American military being strong is the only thing that Vladimir Putin actually cares about. That's the only thing that gives him a second. Okay, let me bring Jack in. I mean, that's my point here. American military is still the biggest military in the world.

If Trump really meant business, notwithstanding the fact that Putin has 6,000 nuclear weapons, actually NATO collectively have a few more, right? So that's the whole point of nuclear, you know, the agreement with nuclear on both sides is you have them both and they're a deterrent and so on. That's why they both have them. This casual threat from this media guy, we should toss a few nukes around. Well, Putin knows if he does that

the world would respond and he get vaporized. That's the reality of the nuclear... That's a strong U.S. military. Yeah, that's deterrent at work, Pierce, absolutely. My problem with what Trump is doing, Jack... Well, Ukraine is that a member of NATO. Trump... As an American, Jack, how can you possibly

countenance what Trump has been doing with Putin and doing this dirty diesel deal? I mean, I just can't believe he's done it. It's like, why would you do that? It's tokenism, because it's one day's diesel. It's obviously, to most people, that the diesel issue in pricing is almost exclusively down to this ridiculous war in Iran and the fact that it's going badly. Why doesn't it just level up with people and get out of Iran and stop this? Well, I mean, there's a lot there.

I like that. The dirty diesel deal, that's pretty cute. It is, isn't it? Do you not think it is? That's, I don't see a problem with the president conducting diplomacy. If Joe Biden had done that deal with Vladimir Putin, you'd go nuts. Absolutely. I go nuts.

Well, his son was the one. He was already doing deals with Ukraine. Right, and you went nuts. So let's, right, because that's what was actually happening. So what's different? Right. That's, that what proof? What's different between what Biden and the family were doing in, say, Burisma in Ukraine?

And what is happening now with this, with the diesel deal? Well, I don't, I don't believe that. unless I understand Ms. incorrectly, I don't believe that the president is personally being enriched by the deal, is he? Well, I think Hunter Biden was being enriched by Burisma, wasn't he? Yes. You guys all rightly went nuts. But it's not like Don Jr. is on the board of gas prom and rose neft. Yeah, but you went mad at the Biden family enriching themselves in dirty, dodgy diesel deals.

Of course I did. So on Ukraine. Why are you not even more angry about this deal with Putin? I was, peers, I went with Secretary Bessent to go. and meet with Zelensky on the U.S.-Ukraine mineral deal all the way back in January 2025. I'm no problem with the U.S. and Ukraine doing oil deals. And, of course, the president is going to,

is absolutely within his rights to make a deal with Russia for diesel on the open market. But they're supposed to be sanctions. The whole point was, under Lindsey Graham's plan, there were going to be new sanctions brought in, which they were, and Trump's just torn it up. Yes, he's clearly torn. And by the way, I'm with you on saying that I believe

that the Iran situation is obviously what's driving all of this. But he's clearly within his rights to go and try to find some way to get an immediate relief for American farmers. But there won't be any relief. It's one day's diesel. It's clearly within his rights. There is no relief. Well, that's this deal.

It's a pure smoke and mirrors thing. Well, there might be another one. How much business do you want to be doing with Russia right now, given they're supposed to be under sanctions? How much do I want to help U.S. farmers? I want to help U.S. farmers completely. Well, then get out of it. of Iran. Hey, I'm not the one who got that one. Right, but am I wrong? I mean, isn't the obvious

problem that the straight of Hormuz remains shut because the Iranian... I think they should all be not true. I think they should all be shut. It's pretty well shut. And the, and the Iranian regime remains intact. The Iot has been replaced by more hard-line son. My position is from a personal perspective. Jack, the truth is, the Iranian regime, contrary to all the predictions, if it's all over in two, three weeks, and it was five, six weeks and so on. Here we are, nearly eight, nine months later, and the Iranian regime controls Australia for Moose.

If it didn't, if it didn't, energy would be flowing through it in the way it was before the war started, and it's not. Period. It's flowing through in a different way. Can I step in on that one, Jack? It's Pierce's a show, I should ask Pierce. Well, it's flowing through this rate of,

it's flowing through this rate of four moves, but it's doing ship to ship. transfers. So there's specific ships that are going through the southern straight. What percentage of energy is flowing through the straight at full moose now compared to before the war started? Look, I want this to end as much as everybody else. But it's very close. That wasn't the question. Very close to the same amount.

But I don't know the exact percentage, but I do know that we've gotten $25 billion out over the last few weeks. And it's shipped to ship transfers that are doing it. It is a fragment of what was going through before this, right? And now as a consequence of the Iranians control on the Strait of Hormuz, you've now got the Houthis up in Saudi Arabia, pretty much controlling the Australia of Bab al-Mandeb, right, which is going to cause enormous problems for Saudi Arabia, both in getting energy out and in getting food and stuff in,

that's already happening. Unfortunately, this whole decision to go to war with Iran has turned out to be a spectacular disaster. I disagree. I know you're against it, if you just go to Centcom's X page, you can see truth data from the U.S. military showing the amount of oil that's flowing through this radio form moves. It's different. A lot of it now is being rerouted through pipelines. So again, I'm not saying it's going to be. There's only six million

barrels a day that can be routed through the Saudi pipeline. Only six million barrels a day can be routed through the Saudi pipeline, which has been blown up by the Houthis, by the way. And so when you say go over to SENTCOM's page and you can see the truth, here's the problem with it. Just because something's hard doesn't mean you should do it. Because the only place that we can get that information is from sentcom. You can't verify it any other way. Okay. So you're going to claim that. You said it's an American first. Hold on. Now, no, no, no, no, it's my turn. No, no, here's my turn. You said it was an American first policy to buy Russian oil. Do you believe, yes or no, very simple question that supporting U.S. service members is also American first.

Yes or no. Absolutely. And also, it's not an American first policy only to buy the oil. Thank you. So you said it's an American first policy to help out the, to help out the farmers, right? Because we got to, we got to relieve the farmers. So let's talk about this. Now, so now you're going to catch 22. Pete Heggseth testifying before Congress back in July. What did he say about Russia helping Iran? What do you say? Targeting U.S. service. Go ahead. Oh, yeah, you don't want to talk about it. You clearly have the answer in mind for just saying. Russia is absolutely helping Iran. Yeah, because you don't know. So Russia absolutely helping Iran to the extent of which he cannot testify publicly, you'd have to take behind closed doors

and a classified briefing to bring it up. So now let's now let's bring it up again. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Why would you want to disclose that, right? So you're right. We are in the same. team. As America first, I don't want to see your service members get targeted for political reasons. And so now we talk about why the cost of diesel is going up. Good. So now, let me finish. Now we're going to talk about the cost of diesel going up. Donald Trump today, or it was yesterday in his statement where he was talking about why he's making this deal with Russia. He said, and I quote, I am in the process of negotiating peace in the war between Russia and Ukraine and don't want anything that will drive foolishly Russia away from the bargaining table.

And he said, quote, Zelensky is using diesel refineries in Russia as a target. Is there any such thing as a quote unquote diesel refinery that exists on this planet? When you the answer is no, they don't exist. So no, no, no, let's talk about the market. Okay, so the market, let's talk about the market. The EU, why is the EU's diesel like 100% higher than the U.S. is? They're paying double for their diesel than the U.S. is. The EU gets 40% of their diesel from the Strait of Hormuz.

40%. Russia for a year. Now, Russia had an export ban on diesel. It was not affecting the global market at all. Do you know when the diesel prices spiked after February 28th, which is the day we started the war with Iran? And that Strait of Ramos has been shut down. When we buy that oil, it's not doing anything but giving Russia money.

And by the way, Iran's oil today is flowing into Russia. And Russia didn't have the oil to ship out to the rest of the world. They didn't have it. They didn't have it. So where are we buying it from? Are we buying it from Russia? Or are we buying it from Iran? Because either way, Russia is going to end up replacing the diesel fuel that they sell to us

with Iranian oil. What's that mean? We're still giving money to the regime either way. No. Can I just respond? It's absolutely nuts. I would just say, I would say, is the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and over again. We're on the same team, right? Both served in the U.S.

like negotiating with terrorists? I'm pretty sure you described Putin as a terrorist. So when was the last time negotiating with a terrorist work? At some point, I think you're going to have to change the tactic of what's going on in the Russia-Ukraine situation. And we're seeing a president who's willing to try something different. And we all do. He tried negotiating with Putin multiple times last year and he got embarrassed. You called Putin a terrorist and you said and you said he should negotiate with him. When did America start negotiating with terrorists? I said he's using terrorist tactics, just to be clear.

He's a terrorist. Obviously, there's a lot of tactics I disagree with. But at the end of the day, keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer. And this is in the art of war. So President Trump has to try different things to try to end this. And I know it's hard to stomach, especially for Europe. I would be very sure.

I think it's an absolute betrayal, actually. Jack. Well, you're seeing something play out Pierce that hasn't played out before. And that's just something that's going to be shocking. It's not going to play out well for President Trump. I can tell you at the midterm elections. Well, it's not playing out for Russia, Ukraine,

and all those soldiers that are dying. OK, but Jack, look, we've got the midterm elections coming. I think President Trump, I just don't understand the tactics here, why he thinks the sucking up to Vladimir Putin two weeks before the midterm elections is going to do anything other than drive people away from voting for the Republicans. It's completely beyond me. Most Americans I know are pulled by this.

I've heard people that as well, but I've also heard a lot of people who say, and I've been going all around the country with Turning Point USA and other groups, you know, holding rallies and holding events on campus. And people are very, very upset

about the cost of living right now. I think cost of living is by far. And they're pleased that you're doing business with Vladimir Putin? Seriously? By far, cost of living is going to be the number one issue of the 20. Can I finish? Yeah.

By far, the 2026 election is going to be cost of living number one. Geopolitics is not going to be anyone's near the top of the list. And so, yeah, President Trump is doing something like that. He's cutting a deal with someone who's not a nice guy, for sure. But the point is that he's trying to do something about the cost of living. That's what's obviously driving this. Do you think he's going to have any impact of the cost of living? I think it could have an impact in certain states. Iowa, Kansas, places where you have specific one-day's-old. It's literally one-day-s-sdise. It's one-day. It's one-day. Again, it could have impacts on those areas.

Jack, you and I know that's bullshit. It's one-day's diesel we're talking about. That's what the deal is. One day of American diesel consumption. It's going to have... Let me tell you the effect it's going to have on diesel. Zero. Zero effect.

This is purely... Maybe you're a better energy trader than me, but again... No, these are just facts. These are indisputable facts. It's one-day's diesel. If your question is about the intention of the policy, then that's clearly the intention of the policy. The policy is to provide relief to the farmers in the mid-term election.

That's all I'm saying. No, the intention of the policy is for Donald Trump to pass the buck off to Zelensky. Jack, you yourself nine days ago said Zelensky is attempting to sabotage the freaking elections. I didn't just say it. Nine days ago. I said it last night too. If you're like watching my Twitter account like a hawk. So why is it sabotage?

It couldn't possibly be. Now, let's talk about, let's talk about you being a propagandist because it couldn't possibly be that Russia invaded their country. Yeah. We're talking about your propaganda out there. It couldn't possibly be. Oh, no, not a neocon. Whatever war is going on. Thank you, Tucker.

Thank you so much, Tucker. I'm a neocon. I'm not a warmonger. I'm a realist. You want to negotiate with terrorists. No, I just pointed out to you. I pointed out to you that this deal is going to get U.S. service members killed.

Addressed the fact that this is going to get U.S. service members killed. I care about your service members. last. No, you address U.S. service members getting killed because of this deal. Address it. Or how about U.S. service members that are getting killed because of the war? Of getting U.S. service members killed because of the war, Matt? What U.S. service members got killed because of the war in Ukraine? What U.S. service members got killed because of the war in Ukraine? No, I'm a freaking real. Because unlike you sitting on the backside of a freaking computer, I've had to face actual Islamic terrorists. And I've had to face Vladimir Putin and the Russians.

And you're sitting here trying to pretend like this deal isn't going to kill you as service members. You go home. You're an idiot. You're an asshole. And you're lying through your teeth to defend Trump. When was the last time you criticized Donald Trump's policies? You have never criticized a single policy by Donald Trump. You don't care about America.

I'm telling you. I'm not going to allow you as service members to get killed for a political talking point. All right, guys, you might be okay for that Jack, but I'm not. Time out, guys, because we can't hear you both. America last. Let me just say in conclusion, Jack, that I never thought the day would come when MAGA conservatives in America would come on this show to genuinely full-throttle support a dodgy diesel deal with Vladimir Putin. I just find it incredible, absolutely incredible that this is now happening. There is not a MAGA person alive.

We've interviewed them three, four years ago, would have ever wanted anything to do. You don't, and peers, I noticed you don't mention the fact that Trump tried to do a mineral deal with Zelensky first. Yeah, because Ukraine is the fact that the oil sales are going to kill you a service members. By the way, Ukraine is a free sovereign democratic country. He's just a legally invaded by Vladimir Putin. Because you're a propagandist, war monger, Matt. You're a warmonger. Don't you address the fact that Trump's deal is going to kill you a service member to try to get the mineral deal with Besson?

Oh, God, you went over there on a diplomatic mission, sucking off the Trump administration. Tell me it ain't so. You went over there sucking off the Trump administration and all of the sudden. You even know what you're talking about. Tell me about it. You have no idea what you're talking about. Zero.

Zilch. I was there. You're right. I served the Ukraine's special forces. I've been there multiple times. Multiple times. Did you go there to try to stop the war or start the war? I've advised deputy U.S. ambassador over there.

Who the fuck are you to come in and tell me? I don't know what's going on over there. You probably didn't even know where Ukraine was out on the map 10 years ago. You have no clue. I don't care what you did because you're a propagandist. You were a lung. trying for the Trump administration and it's going to get U.S. service members killed and you don't care. Pierce just flat out told you it's not going to help you as farmers and you said it's going to help.

Jack, okay, look, we've got to bring you to that. Jack, let me just, Jack, let me ask you a simple question. You're a freaking liar. Jack, was Vladimir Putin justified? I just honestly gave you an answer. Jack, Jack, Jack, Jack, was Vladimir Putin justified in evading Ukraine? He shouldn't have done it. Okay, great.

So if you assume he shouldn't have done it, it should be the right-minded reaction of America. and Europeans and everyone who believes in free democratic sovereign countries and their right to exist, that they should be kicked out. So why you now think it's fine doing dodgy diesel deals, which are meaningless, with the bloke who perpetrated that illegal invasion of Ukraine is beyond me? But anyway, I've got to leave it. Because I think this is going to be solved by diplomacy, peers. It's going to be solved by diplomacy. You know what? People said that about Hitler in 1939.

and Christians dead, which is apparently what Matt wants. In the end, you can't solve problems like feeding with diplomacy. I didn't understand Tucker Carlson was going to be on here today. The best defense isn't Europe writing blank checks to fight Russia. Actually, the best defense is giving Ukraine the tools to kick the Russians out of their country. Forever. And I 100% believe in that, and they should be given what they can. And if America is now blinking and wants to do deals with the guy who invaded the country,

then it's down to the Europeans to step up. and as we did in World War II and come together. Anyway, we've got to leave it there. Guys, thank you all very much indeed. I appreciate it. Thank you, guys. Well, don't forget, this week we're proudly launching the Uncensored Club, ad-free episodes,

extra content, early access, Q&A's and everything else you've asked for. There's a massive founding member's discount available now, as is this interview with our uncensored favorite Dave Smith, which our members will get first. I'm not voting for a socialist, I'm not voting for a woke Democrat, and I'm not voting for a neo-euro.

If there was a ballot and on the ballot is Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong, at a certain point, I don't want to get into an argument about which one is worse than the other. I want to just, I want to reject the entire system. Don't launch a war of choice sold on lies on behalf of a foreign country and then lose the war. Now I'm not defending anything Putin or Assad did. They were both very bad guys, but... If you had to be trapped on a desert island for a calendar year with one of the following,

Who would you choose? Adam Osnick, Douglas Murray, or Natasha Hausdorf. Jeez, dude, that's such a... The new Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid is the most fuel-efficient cross-trek yet. That means less time filling your tank and more time filling your day. More court time. More ride time. More lake time.

More camp time. More go time. The new 27 Subaru Cross-Trek hybrid. reports top-rated subcompact SUV. Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer Reports that's not indoors products or services. Now is Alex Gibney, the director of Musk and influencer and Musk's former girlfriend, Ashley Sinclair. Well, welcome to both of you. Alex Gibney, Elon Musk didn't participate in your film, but in the few months before it came out, he said on his platform, X, it will be a terrible hit

piece, biased, and boring AF, which stands for as fuck, because it's four hours long. How do you plead to those charges? Not guilty. Everybody had seen the film says it flies by, and it was never a hit piece. It was an investigation. That's what you start with something. In fact, when I started the film, I was kind of a fan of Elon Musk. I admired what he had done at Tesla in terms of using the private.

sector to tackle climate change. So again, but I do find that Elon's response is performative and full of bullshit, which, of course, became the central theme of the film. I mean, my sort of argument, I guess, about the overarching view of it, because the Guardian, there was an epic study of the world's richest and most banal man, Variety said it was a lacerating portrait of technocratic brilliance, power-lust and cracked. pot delusion. You know, my view of Musk, and I've only, I've met him a couple of times and had a sort of

one hour chat with him over a drink a couple of years ago. But my view of him is, is a complex character, probably on the spectrum somewhere, obviously has a brilliant mind, has done some extraordinary things to the benefit of the world. I would say Starlink, Neurlink, you know, his green energy cars, his green energy cars, Tesla and so on. All these things, his stuff up in space for SpaceX, all these things could be seen to be for the benefit of mankind. And yet he does probably 20% of him. I see the stuff he posts sometimes. I think it's crazily over-inflammatory. I've hated what he said this week about Ukraine. And so in other words, there are things I disagree with him about. But I broadly

think in the totality, as with so many geniuses, the totality of Musk is good outweighing the bad? Would you agree with that? I would say that his companies have produced some technological achievements. But listen to the framing of the way you've kind of talked about him. It would be a framing that Elon Musk would very much

like to endorse. But would you say that the president of Volkswagen is saving civilization? No. The president of Volkswagen is making cars and trying to sell the cars to public. That's what he did at Tesla. At SpaceX, the reusable rockets are impressive. Starlink is an interesting technology for people in remote rural areas and on the battlefield in Ukraine. But maybe, as you might have said, we see the problem with entrusting technologies like that to a man who, who is likely not of sound mind. And suddenly we have an incident like the one we had recently when Russia launches ballistic missiles.

We don't even know who was responsible for slowing down Starlink, which allowed those ballistic missiles to penetrate Ukrainian territory. So I think what you have is an overinflated sense of how much he's leading to the improvement of global civilization. He is the steward.

of some companies, which, by the way, are generally manned by some very capable executives and engineers. He's not his genius, I would argue, is stock pumping, because that is where he really shines. He's managed to take companies which have a rather mediocre profit and loss record and to make himself through stock pumping the richest man in the world. That, I think, is a reframing of who this guy is. a genius inventor. He never invented anything. Okay. Ashley, good to see you again. But last time I saw you was actually right before the

2024 elections. You appeared on uncensored in a lively debate about that election. And you had a little baby with you. And little did I know at the time that little baby was Romulus, who is Elon's child along with yours. So that was quite a turn-up for the books when we discovered that. So nice to see you again. But you were with Elon for, I mean, I think on and off for quite a while. He tried to diminish the kind of relationship you had. First of all, how did you feel about that? He's obviously had a lot of girlfriends, a lot of children.

What's your feeling about the way he has categorized your relationship? I don't feel any way about it. You know, I think it makes him look worse. If anyone is to accept the premise, I think he tweeted, you know, she was never my girlfriend and we only met a few times. times. Yes, I too have children and share secrets with people I've only met a few times. So I think it just makes him look more absurd. But the bigger picture there is that this is all coming out on the heels of Alex's work, of Alex's documentary, in which it does show some unfavorable things about

Elon. So I think that's the bigger picture, even him shooting this hollow car with rocket boosters off of the hot wheels ramp. I think it's all a distraction from the incredible work that Alex has done here. I mean, look, I would say that the stunt with the car this week, it was brilliant. It was a brilliant marketing stunt. You know, quite whether we'll ever get cars that can actually do this remains to be seen. But as a marketing stunt, I thought it was brilliant. And my question for you, actually, would be the same one I put to Alex, and you speak from a position of knowing Elon very intimately, you share a baby together. you know, what percentage would you say of Elon Musk is a force for good,

and what percentage would you say is a force for not good? I don't know how, and I did not appreciate your framing of, you know, he runs these companies that do electric vehicles and have all this technology that, frankly, would have come into existence without Elon, because it's the engineers who are the real brains behind this. But I think all of that is negated by everything, that he is doing currently, that what he is doing on X and Twitter and the hate that he is pushing out.

If you remember a few months ago, he was violently pushing out this movie Citizen Vigilante. And Pears, I'm not sure if you saw that movie, but it cannot be interpreted as anything less than an incitement to violence against immigrants and brown people. I think all of that, that in itself negates so much good. I think genuinely, I hope that he surrounds himself with people who start telling him now.

Do you have a tool to him? We do not speak right now. So how do you, I mean, do you co-parent at all? Does he ever see his child? I'm not at liberty to talk about that. Okay. I mean, Alex, you know, there's so much stuff about Musk. He's a bit like Trump in that degree.

And he shares with Trump a kind of very intemperate rhetorical style when he's on social media, which, you know, some people love him for it and some people hate him for it. You know, my own dealings with him have been very kind of mercurial, weird. I've twice nearly got an interview with him, and then he's cancelled over tiny little slights that he's perceived over things I've said or done. I'm sure he will again now, which flies in the face of his whole claim to be the king of free speech,

and that's why he bought Twitter and everything else. So he clearly has his agenda, is he clearly will censor people about free speech if he doesn't like what he's hearing. I think that's indisputable from my own deal. dealings with him, and yet I still maintain that in totality, like a lot of geniuses, they also are flawed in quite a long way. Would you genuinely conclude from your film and your work about him and so on that he's essentially a bad person? I don't traffic in these terms

like good person, bad person. I would say that he is a confidence man. Now, let's look, you know, let's take Tesla, for example. He claims to be the founder of Tesla. He is not the founder of Tesla. He didn't invent the technology. A guy named Martin Eberhardt does, who was interviewed in the film. He also had the business plan for the company, but Elon needed to take it over, take over that mantle.

Why? So that people would start calling him a genius. But he's not an inventor. He's an investor. Now, Tesla, okay, I like the idea of a private, electric car company helping to solve the climate crisis. but he uses the ill-gotten stock pumping from Tesla to elect Donald Trump. What is Donald Trump's fundamental, what was this one of his key slogans going into the 2024 election?

Drill baby drill. Now, I would argue he's done way more to destroy the climate than almost anybody on planet Earth. If your goal was to protect the climate, you wouldn't elect Donald Trump. So clearly something else is going on here, and it really has to do with a man who wants to accrete extraordinary amounts of power and also doesn't ever want to be held accountable. Because one of the reasons he helped elect Donald Trump was because he was facing, I believe it was 32 civil investigations by 11 different authorities and indeed was facing potential criminal indictment for fraud. All of those disappeared once Donald Trump became president. Has he come after you legally for the film? He threatened to.

Of course, he threatened to before even having seen the film, and he claimed the film said something other than what it said. And that was just a way of trying to silence speech. And by the way, in that way, I would say he's not alone. I mean, the ads for the film have, we're recently subject to a permanent ban on TikTok, which is owned 15%, by the way, by Larry Ellison, one of Elon Musk's close friends.

And so the attempts to kind of constrain critique and maintain this image that he wants to cultivate of him being a genius looking out for the good of the planet is just bollocks. Very British insult you've come up with there. Actually, you must have seen a lot of qualities in Elon to want to sleep with him and have a child with him, right? And you're going to have to at some stage tell your son

that you share with Elon about his dad. When you think about the good side of Elon, what would you say? The good side right now is my optimism that one day he gets help. What does he need help for, do you think? That's a question for his doctors, but I have a hard time with this question

because this is a man who owns one of the largest social media platforms in the world. And peers, you know, as well as I know, what happens when someone like Elon tweets about you and the severe risk to your security and how a man like him can go online and viciously attack his own child, his grown child, and constantly put a target on her head and make a child of yours your villain origin story is despicable. It is beyond me.

And I just cannot condone that behavior. I don't find anything redeemable about that. But is there anything redeemable about it? his character by him. He is great at Diablo. That's it? As of right now. I think, you know, one of the things that the film looks at is that Elon at some point was a very different person.

How he's changed and whether or not power either exacerbated certain negative character characteristics or whether power corrupted him, it's, hard to say. That'll be a, you know, we suggest some possibilities in the film. And obviously, he had difficult childhood growing up. But so did a lot of people. And it didn't cause them to be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children, as was the case when he summarily canceled USAID as part of Doge. Yeah. I mean, look, and peers, you talk about. Like, are there good parts, he's a human being. And so somewhere in there, there's probably something good. And the companies that he started are thriving companies full of great engineers that do interesting

things. But right now, you'd have to say that this man is putting us all in some kind of existential risk. And he is really not of right mind. And that should be a terrifying thing, considering the amount of power that he has accreted, not only through his wealth and his technological power, but also his political power, aligning himself with Donald Trump, who has a Department of Justice that is at once a protection racket

and a mechanism for revenge. Well, he's saying he's being very active in politics, he's just donated $158 million to the Senate leadership, a race, particularly in Texas, for the Republican candidate. So he's clearly trying to influence American politics in a very substantive way. Final word to you, Ashley.

You wanted to say something. He's not trying to influence American politics. He is. And I believe that all of these things that he's a part of deserve inquiry. And to come up here and have me questioned on what do you think your child is going to think about this? What are you going to say to your child about him?

Well, there's words online right now to hundreds of millions of people where he is calling me evil for speaking the truth. I think that speaks more to his character than anyone's. And I hope one day that I'm not the only one who is able to speak out. And that's the reason that I'm here is that I'm one of the only ones who can speak about Elon because I said now. Okay. We're going to leave it there.

Ashley and Alex, thank you both very much indeed for joining me. I appreciate it. Thanks, peers. The new Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid is the most fuel efficient cross trek yet. That means less time filling your tank and more time filling your day. More court time. more ride time, more lake time, more camp time, more go time. The new 2027 Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid, Consumer Reports, top-rated subcompact SUV.

Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer Reports that's not indoors products or services. Well, joining me now is Ian Bremer. He's the president of the Eurasia Group. Ian, great to see you. And I want to start with nothing to do with what we're going to talk about. I want to extend my deepest sympathies to you and condolences over the loss of your dog, moose,

that I read about in your weekly email. And it really touched me the way you ended your email. And I'm very sad for you and your family that you've lost moose. Oh, man, I didn't expect that at all. He's 16 years young, and you know how much we love our little animals. And he's been a part of my life, both privately and publicly for a long time. and was, did his utter damnedest. This was a dog whose will to live just exceeded the capacity of the body to keep going.

And I know he still wanted to be with us, but thanks for saying it appears. It's obviously, he was a tremendous little guy, and I miss him immensely. I haven't actually said anything about it publicly yet, and I guess I am now. But there you have it. I was just struck because I've got two cats, hadn't had a pet since I was a teenager. And they're four years old today, their brother and sister. And I was just thinking about them.

And then I read your email, which I read every week. If people don't subscribe to it, they should. It's one of the best overviews of geopolitics that I get each week. And you just stuck it on the end there. And I was very moved. And I just, as a fellow pet owner and lover, I send my deep sympathies to all of you. No, thanks, Pierce.

16, it's over 100 for us. I mean, if that's the way that you and I go, we will have lived a very full life. Frankly, I hope it is. You know, it's good of best. Well, RIP Moose. Let's move to what you were booked to talk about. And there's so much in your wheelhouse, Ian.

Let's start with Ukraine. Where are you? You know, I had President Zelensky sitting in this studio a few days ago. really being as critical of President Trump as I've heard him, talking about being betrayed by the president, a line that made headlines around the world. What do you think is really happening here? Do you think that Trump's alliance with Putin over this diesel deal,

the fact it appears to be more tokenistic than anything, but appears to be saying, I'm with Putin now? Was that the final straw, do you think, for Zelensky? I mean, Zelensky clearly does not want to be in a position where he is publicly criticizing Trump. He has worked mightily, as has his cabinet, over the last year, ever since a year ago, April, when he was summarily thrown out of the White House without lunch and had intelligence suspended for about a week. I mean, he's had to bite his tongue on so many occasions, thanking the Americans for everything they're doing, and for everything, of course, that they aren't doing that they used to do, so much more money that the Americans used to provide, which now it's all the Europeans, the Canadians, the Japanese.

He did not want to be in this position. And he is. And I think he is because President Trump has decided that he is moving towards military neutrality, doesn't care who wins the war, irrespective of who started it, as long as it's over, doesn't matter to him. him, what the deal looks like. And secondarily, he's politically aligning himself with Putin over Zelensky, the invitation to the G20 summit, the engagement on diesel and the unilateral decision to pull away from the Lindsey Graham bipartisan sanction effort from Congress. the call for Zelensky to leave power, he hasn't said that, about Putin, the saying that Zelensky is actually more responsible for the war, that he's the one that wants the war to continue.

I mean, honestly, Pierce, you read this, and it's Orwellian. It's as if the entire world Trump is trying to gaslight that war is peace and ignorance is strength. That is the opposite of what you and I and all of. of us around the world watching this conflict know to be true, but Trump has decided that he is angry at Zelensky. Zelensky is the weaker party, and therefore he is going to lean against his adversary over the interests of tens of millions of Ukrainian people. And of course, all of America's allies in NATO, who he has not coordinated with one bit. It's really a staggering shift for the President of the United States.

It is. And the telegraph in the UK reported specifically about the slowing down of Star Shield, which is the military version of Starlink, that it was deliberately slowed down. And they reported that Elon Musk, who owns this, approached Donald Trump with a proposal to introduce speed limits on the system, which then hampered Ukraine's drone defenses. They had four sources for this story, so it appears to be incredibly well sourced

and that Trump agreed with must suggestion, and the Pentagon did indeed slow it down, and then Putin took advantage of that situation to escalate attacks in Ukraine. I mean, if that is true, you have an American president, aided by the most successful businessman in American history, apparently conspiring to leave a sovereign democratic country exposed to a Russian, dictator because they want to side with Putin over Zelensky? Well, number one, the decision is solely that of the commander-in-chief. The order would have been given by the White House,

and it would have been carried out by the Pentagon. And I think we need to keep our focus on that. And this is not Starlink. Star Shield is wholly in the domain of the U.S. government, as it should be. These are decisions of war and peace and of the defense or not of the Ukrainian nation. Also, Trump's demand, the demand to stop attacking energy targets, civilian energy targets, which he said was agreed to just a week ago, claimed it was agreed to by the Russians and Ukrainians, clearly lied about that.

That was not the case at the time. He then later said, well, it's because I said it. the case. The Ukrainians, having heard that from Trump, having faced that pressure publicly and privately, suspended their own attacks on Russian energy targets for a matter of days. The Russians, within a matter of hours, renewed their attacks on Ukrainian energy targets. And then after several days of this, the Ukrainians restarted their attacks on Russian refineries, and yet Trump is blaming singularly, blaming Zelensky. And not a word, not a word from President Trump on the Russian expansion of tax against Ukrainian civilians, not a word condemning

the Russian attacks, the hybrid attacks, on NATO allies directly. So again, I think this is quite startling, and it is a dramatic change in how we must think about the future of the Transatlantic Alliance and NATO, which heretofore was the strongest collective security agreement in the world. Of course, there are people on the Russian side who persistently say NATO brought this on themselves, because NATO kept encroaching, encroaching, and talking about greater encroachment, talked about bringing Ukraine into NATO and so on. And this became something which Putin kept warning about and warning about and warning about. And eventually he lost patience and that's why he invaded Ukraine.

What do you say to people that have that argument? Well, first, let's remember that the same Kremlin, including Putin himself, had given direct assurances to the German chancellor, to the French president in the months coming up to their invasion, that they had absolutely no intention of attacking Ukraine, that it would never happen, that why were all of these aspersions being cast against the president of Russia? So the credibility of the Kremlin on these issues is clearly zero. Secondly, more broadly. So, I mean, in other words, we should not be taking what the Russians are saying with any credibility. on matters of war and peace in Ukraine.

But we should look at history. And of course it's true that the United States held out a lot of prospect of integration to the Russians, created the NATO-Russia Council, created the G7 plus one. And in all of these cases, Russia was never really integrated. They were sort of given a kind of associate status, with everybody knowing they were never going to be trusted, they were never going to be full members. And you and I know, Pears, if you really want to alienate someone, want to alienate a kid at school, pretend you're going to let them into your club when you never have any intention of doing it.

And that creates enormous resentment and anger. And I believe that Putin, who certainly in the early days of his rule, was hoping to become a part of the West. And we saw some of this, even after 9-11, when he opened up Soviet bases and bases, former Soviet bases, bases in the Central Asia, independent states, so that the Americans could engage effectively in logistics for the war in Afghanistan. He saw that he was never going to be welcomed into the West. And that reality, together with a lot of governance failures and kleptocracy inside Russia that Putin himself is responsible for, led to an environment where the Americans and the Russians became implacable enemies once more. And certainly in that regard, the fact that many of the independent states of former Soviet empire wanted to go their own way, particularly the former Slavic nations and those nations with large Slavic populations inside them. So northern Kazakhstan, northeast Estonia, Belarus, Ukraine, those were areas that suddenly

many nationalists inside Russia, including Putin, decided it was unacceptable for those places to persist in their independence, that they would not have the right to determine their own future, not their own security, not their own economy, not their own diplomacy. And so the idea that those places could function as independent countries became anathema to the non-lawfully elected president of Russia, the unfreely and unfairly elected president of Russia, Vladimir Putin. And that is where we've gotten to today. Final question, Ian, would Putin, if they do a deal,

which involves him keeping Lars Sways of the Dombas for argument's sake, and Crimea, which he obviously took several years ago. If that deal is done, would you trust Putin to leave it there, as some have suggested he would do? Of course not. Again, you wouldn't trust Putin. You would need to ensure that the Ukrainians continued to be the strongest military in Europe. This, of course, Putin has helped ensure Ukraine is far better defended, including their own drone

capabilities, their own intelligence capabilities, their own ability to raise an effective and experienced fighting force far more than the Germans, far more than anybody else in Europe, because of the Russian invasion. You now have additional members of NATO in the Nordic countries because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The Germans are. are spending wildly more on defense. Because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, we can clearly say that Putin's decision to invade Ukraine is the biggest self-destructive move by a major world leader since Soviet collapse in 1991. And so while I wouldn't trust Putin to only stick with the territory that he might prevail in

taking in integrating after some plausible deal in the future, we can say that the military response to Russia is much more capable so that you don't need to rely on trust of the Russians than it certainly was in 2022 when he started this war or in 2014 where he illegally annexed Crimea. Ian Bremer, always great to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed, joining me. Pleasure Pierce. Thank you.

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