Piers Morgan Uncensored - Rapper Lowkey Debates Israel, Hezbollah and Palestine With Piers Morgan

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

British rapper Lowkey’s music has been entwined with activism since he first picked up a mic, and true to form, he joins Piers Morgan Uncensored with political fire in his belly. Openly anti-Zionist and pro-Palestine, Lowkey lays the blame for the ongoing conflict in the Middle East squarely at the feet of Israel. Piers Morgan counters, saying that both Hamas and Hezbollah are fully committed to the destruction of the Jewish state, and their attacks would inevitably draw an IDF response. Piers then brings in Lebanese-American terror commentator Brigitte Gabriel, who claims that Israel had always wanted peace, and withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Lowkey is shocked by her statement that "Palestinians have brought this on themselves", and directly accuses her organisation ACT for America of accepting funding from organisations that invest in illegal settlements in the West Bank. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Given that you categorized what Israel did to Hezbollah with the pages, you said it was an act of terror. Was what Hamas did in October the 7th an act of terrorism? The killing by the Israeli Air Force of Israeli citizens was an act of terror that we lived. But I'm answering your question. I'm talking about mass murder of people on October the 7th. By the Israeli military. See, it's just absurd.

As I said to you then, the picture is not clear of what exactly Hamas did to Israelis. incredibly ill-informed about this. I'm not concerned about whether you think or don't think that have credibility. I have a question for you based on what you just said about settlement. At some point, Loki, you're going to answer some of my questions. So I don't cover this from supporting either over the other. Are you sure about that? Yeah.

Well, many people know Loki as a rapper, a playwright and a poet, but it's fair to say that even more know him as a fierce advocate for the rights of Palestinians and a fierce critic of Israel. First, and only time we've spoken was in the immediate aftermath of October. with the seventh. Israel and its supporters couldn't see beyond the horrors of atrocities. Critics were angered by how quickly it eclipsed decades of Palestinian suffering and heralded a great deal more. A lot has happened since then. But has anything really changed? Karim Dennis, better known as Loki, joins me in the studio now. And from Washington, D.C.,

I'm joined by the Lebanese, American author, and activist Brigitte Gabriel. Welcome to both of you. Lucky, we never met, so it's good to meet you. We had a pretty fiery exchange last time when I was in New York. when you were here. Passions were running very high. I think it's fair to say from my experience of debates since, there's been no dilution in the way people feel about this. If anything, I think views are getting more and more entrenched as it goes on. What is your feeling about where we are now with this war and indeed the widening conflict with Israel, apparently planning a grounding cushion into Lebanon? Well, that initial interview, there were three things that I stated, which have since come clearly to fruition. So the first thing that I stated was that Mark

Regev belongs in the Hague. Israel is currently in the ICJ charged with genocide. I also said that what Israel was doing in Gaza in an cumulative way over decades would amount with the military operation that they were about to launch to genocide. And the third thing that I said, which was, which has also now been proven to have been the case, is that the Israeli military unfortunately implemented the Hannibal Directive on October 7th. And that, just so viewers are aware, is when Israel, of course, it was initially developed in Lebanon while trying to suppress the Lebanese population and stop them from battling the Israeli occupation. and it's whereby Israel takes measures to kill the captives who are Israeli that have been taken by the other side.

Now, that happened on October 7th, and it's since been proven in three different cases. It happened, unfortunately, after... It's been denied by Israel, to be clear. It hasn't, though. It's been denied by certain upper echelons of the Israeli political establishment, but there have been key figures. within the Air Force that have acknowledged that this has taken place. It's also been revealed by the Al Jazeera investigation

and other places, too, have gone very deep into it. But you wouldn't say that the absolute vast majority of people killed and wounded October 7th were indeed killed and wounded by Hamas because, apart from anything else, Hamas were boasting about it and filming it as they were doing it. I think actually the majority of people that were killed on October 7th and off the back of the October 7th, were the Palestinian fighters that entered into what is considered to be Israel.

Because they were killed. They were run over by cars. Their bodies were dismembered. There's footage that came out of them being killed. You feel sorry for the Hamas terrorists who came in? No, I'm stating objective facts as a journalist that has researched this topic. What about the 1,200 people who they murdered and the 7,000, they wounded? No, no, no.

Hundreds of those people were killed, when Israel implemented the Hannibal directive. It's simply not true. It simply is true. It isn't. And I encourage you in the spirit of journalistic inquiry and curiosity to really look that up. It's already been thoroughly investigated.

It absolutely has not been. But it has low-key. It's been investigated by Al Jazeera. It's been investigated by trustable news sources that have found this to be the case. No, it's not true that hundreds of people in those named casualty numbers on the Israeli side were killed by Israel.

No, it's a fact. It's a documented fact. And you know what else? If you were to study those cars, which were put forth as evidence, that Hamas had killed those people fleeing the Nova Festival, the order came directly from the Israeli Air Force. This is a mass Hannibal. This is a dead zone. No cars will pass.

Did you watch the documentary last week on BBC 2? No. About the music festival, right? You literally see Hamas fighters with their girls. pros going from car to car, murdering people? That happened. Yeah, that happened. Why are you trying to diminish what the scale of what was going on?

I've just said that happened. That doesn't equate to diminishing what you've just stated. It doesn't say hundreds of others. You're diminishing Apache helicopters bombing cars that contained civilians. You're diminishing all of the Israeli captives that have been killed by Israeli airstrikes. Israeli captives have come out of Gaza and said very clearly that actually they were scared of being killed by Israeli airshunders. Why are their hostages at all?

Well, this is of course an issue of 70 years of occupation, of dispossession, of ethnic cleansing. You wouldn't support the taking of hostages, including Holocaust survivors and babies. You wouldn't support them. I wouldn't take hostages, no. Should they hand them back? I think if you look historically at where the return of actual hostages has happened, you look at the case of Gilad Sharwit. This was a case where an Israeli soldier was given.

back in exchange for the release of Palestinian prisoners. What you've actually seen in this case is a massive increase of Palestinian prisoners who are being tortured. There's been examples of rape within Israeli military camps. The rapists have come out and become celebrities within Israeli society. 68% of the Israeli population say they oppose the prosecuting of people that have been implicated in rape within the dungeon system. And if you really look at it, Israel has far more chance of returning hostages

by negotiating for their release than by airstriking them. What Israel has done as part of this campaign is airstrike and kill its own captives. The captives are held the other side. How would you respond in October the 8th if you were running the Israeli government? Ultimately. The biggest terror attack on your people ever. Ultimately, ultimately, ultimately, it is within the interests of everybody, especially those who identify as Israelis currently to end Zionism.

Zionism has dispossessed and disempowered and killed people on an industrial scale. Its maintenance requires four generations of Palestinian refugees scattered throughout the Middle East, the highest population of refugees there is in the world. Its maintenance requires the constant repression of Palestinian. hopes for a better world. Which I think is completely wrong. So I believe all Palestinian people should have exactly the same rights

as you and I and every Israeli. And that requires the end of Zionism, so therefore you support the end of Zionism. I don't agree with what has clearly been a form of occupation, okay? But putting that to one side, I also don't agree with Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis,

funded by Iran, armed by Iran, launching wave after, after years and decades of terror attacks on Israel? Do they have air forces? Do they have, let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you some questions. Do they have air forces and air defenses?

Let me ask them. Do they have air forces and their defenses? So it sounds like you're defending what they do. No, I'm saying there is a complete difference between one of the most powerful armies in the world, which has literally a key unit within the Israeli military, unit 9900 is the visual unit. which uses satellites in the sky that can pick off a bit of chewing gum on your shoe, okay?

You're talking against about actors that are shooting rockets which do not have precise targeting against one of the most powerful air forces in the world. It sounds to me, in Maliki. F-16s and F-35. You're talking about asymmetrical warfare,

but you know the thing that Israel doesn't remember, and which Israel has to know, and must know, that winning a war, is not about killing on an industrial scale the weakest among the population you are targeting, which Israel excels at, which is the essence of Zionism. Winning a war is about the largest amount of people

being convinced of your viewpoint. If we use that metric to understand this war, Israel has lost in Gaza and it will lose in Lebanon, because Israel has more enemies around the world than ever before. More people are critical of Zionism than ever before. more people understand it to be essentially an anti-life ideology, which is causing mass human suffering. But at the same time, Hamas, Isbola, are wedded

and make no secret of being wedded to the destruction of Israel. The destruction. That is a nihilistic form of genocide. The very genocide that is supporters, like you, would say has been waged against their people. They are explicit. We want the despise. of Israel. And they have tried to enact this on October the 7th. And Hezbollah's response

the next day, within hours, was to unleash rockets on Israel as well and to carry on doing it for a year. At some point, Israel obviously was going to respond with massive force to the biggest attack on its people. Obviously they were going to do that. Hamas knew they would do that. Iran, who were funding it, knew they were going to do that. Hesbola knew they would do that. Hesbola knew if they kept rattling the Israel cage with their rockets, that they would get a response of the kind we're seeing now. What they underestimated is that Israel would be quite as successful as they're being right now with Hezbollah

and taking out all its command leadership. And you can feel that the momentum has switched now where Israeli people, in particular, and all the polling, are now beginning to go back to supporting Netanyahu because they believe, rightly or wrongly, but they believe Hamas and Hezbollah when they say, we want to destroy Israel. They believe it, and they believe that they have to defend themselves.

Do you understand that? I have a response. The Likud platform, which is its charter, states very clearly, there will be no Palestinian sovereignty between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The Likud Charter calls for the complete obliteration of Palestine,

and all of the rights of Palestinians. That is the core of the issue. One group that you're talking about don't have air defences and do not have an air force and are internationally isolated. As you know. And are internationally isolated.

And yet they were somehow... The other one has the support of the United States, which has around 1,000 military bases around the world. And of course, all of the large S from literally the US, after Israel has taken its terrorist actions, which the former head of the CIA, Leon Panetta, called it a form of terrorism in Lebanon with the pager attack.

Right after that, the US has said it's going to give $8.7 billion in military aid to Israel. Was what Hamas did not October the 7th an act of terrorism, man? I would say that the killing by the Israeli Air Force of Israeli citizens was an act of terror. I would say that Palestinians who have lived in camps for several generations, not in our shoes. They're not living the kind of lives that we live in the places that we live. But I'm answering your question to a Palestinian who has suffered their entire life under the boot of Israeli occupation. What you view as justified will not be what they view as justified. The very same way, ask you what you think. The very same way that you denounce figures and define them

depending to these particular legislative definitions throughout history, the very same people you compare yourself to Nelson Mandela the ANC were absolutely treated in exactly the same way. And the British government called them terror.

The FLN were treated in exactly the same way. The Vietnamese were treated in exactly the same way. I'm speaking directly to your point. You're not, though. In fact, William Cuffy, of the Chartist, these were people that mobilised for hundreds of years to get the right to vote

that didn't own property and were not landed gentry in this country. Do you know what happened to them? They were imprisoned as terrorists. They were massacred at the... I know the same history you do. But I simply asked you, given that you categorized what Israel did

to Hezbollah with the pages, whether you said it was an act of terror, whether you think what Hamas did to Israelis on October 7th was an act of terror. As I said to, to you then, the picture is not clear of what exactly Hamas did to Israelis. There were lies about 40 beheaded babies that were pumped out all over the place. No, no, no.

There was so much fake news and lies on what happened on October 7th. How can we? How can we actually say? Have you watched the Hamas footage that they took themselves? Seen bits and pieces. Bits and pieces. Yeah. Literally bits and pieces of people's bodies.

No, no, no, no. What I don't understand. You haven't seen it, what I don't understand. What do you want to see it? I'm happy to see it. But what I don't understand. as in I would like to see these things. But what I'm saying to you

that you are seeming to minimize, in my opinion, is the fact that the Hannibal Directive was implemented. If the Hannibal Directive was implemented, if a fake use campaign was rolled out... I'm about to read you something. Really?

At July 2024, Harriott's investigation revealed the IDF ordered the Hannibal Directive to be used, adding, Heritz does not know whether or how many civilians and soldiers were hit due to these procedures. but the cumulative data indicates that many of the kidnapped people were at risk exposed to Israeli gunfire, even if they weren't the target. In other words, there may well have been a directive issued, says Heratz,

but nobody knows whether anyone was even hit or killed. Look at the cars. Hang on. I've watched the video footage of Hamashton people in the cars. Here's my point, low key. Let me finish. My point is, you have extrapolated this, and you've taken it to hundreds of people in the 12th.

that were said to have been killed were killed by Israelis. Yeah, yeah. That's documented. There is zero evidence. No, there is. The hundreds of people were killed. Read the electronic interfather. Read the Grey Zone.

Read Al Jazeera. Look at Al Jazeera documentary. You'll see you there. In July this year, there is no evidence. No, actually, there is evidence. And Harretz pointed some of it out early on. They didn't. I've just read it to you.

They pointed out that an airstrike was called in. I've just read to you what they found. Well, you've read one article which clearly shows that the Hannibal directive was implemented. A harassed investigation. If an Apache helicopter shoots at a car, what happens to the car? Have you... Do you think Hamas...

Let me ask your question. Do you think that the use of AK-47s would cause the damage that was done to those cars fleeing the... It wouldn't. I think because you have chosen not to view the footage the Hamas broadcast of the world, you are incredibly ill-informed about this. And my advice to you, given how... Given how...

you are in this whole thing, I'm staggered. You just haven't watched that footage. Then you wouldn't be asking me his questions. But to the wider issue of what we're talking about, this is far, far bigger than one day. Yeah, but I'm only asking you, it's almost become a religion on October 7. I understand. Let's be clear. But I only ask you one comparison. You view what Israel did to Hezbollah, you'd be firing rockets at them all year, displacing 70,000 people in northern Israel. You view what they did with those pages as an act of terrorism. I simply said to you, do you think what Hamasht in October 7th is an act of terrorism? And you've been really struggling to give a straight answer.

You're trying to distract me by saying, Hannibal Directive, hundreds were killed. Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. Do you believe in the provisions of the genocide convention? I do not believe what Israel is doing is waging genocide. Do you know why? It's not what I'm asking you.

What I'm asking you is Article 1 of the Convention on the Convention on the Constitution. the prevention and the punishment of genocide, says that all parties that are part of this are under obligation to prevent the occurrence of genocide and punish those responsible for its commission. There is a sound argument. How many people live in Gaza? How many people live in Gaza?

Two million people living in Gaza. How many have been killed? Well, I mean, the Lancet Medical Journal has put forth the assertion that 200,000 people's lives have been ended by Israel's operation. Well, it's completely untrue. But that's the Lancet Medical Journal.

So the Lancet Medical Journal is a more trustworthy source than you. The Palestinians are saying 42,000 as of today. The Palestinian Hamas run... But that's not how genocide works, but that's not how genocide works, please. But you know that's not how genocide works. No, I'm about to tell you... But you know that's not how genocide works. So you don't believe the Palestinian Health Authority numbers?

No, I believe them. But what I'm saying to you... You think five times as many people have been killed? I've literally just quoted you what, the Lancet Medical Association. has said, and I've also quoted to you what they have said there. You know why it matters, right? You know why it matters? I share a lot of your misgivings about the scale and proportionate response of what's been going on in Gaza,

and I've said that repeatedly. But I don't think it constitutes a genocide because Israel has the power, should it want to, to kill all two million. But won't we finish? Let me finish. That's not what constitutes genocide, though. They have the power to eradicate every single Palestinian. Was genocide committed on the Aboriginal people of Australia?

I'm not going to go over the whole history of genocide. So therefore, your argument is that they were not subject to genocide following the arrival of Captain Cook. But do you accept that what Hamas and Herzbollah, when they say the destruction of Israel, that is the purest personification of genocide? I have clearly shown you that the liquid charter states within it, that the Palestinians will have no sovereignty between the river and the sea. I ask both sides, because there's a causal connection to what has happened. But you distract on everything I say back to Israel.

You're talking to me about organizations that were formed to fight the Israeli occupation. Their response to that occupation is what it is. The occupation exists first. Zionism exists first. What comes after it is a product of that social imbalance. So you would categorize what they've been doing is resistance, not terrorism?

They are resistance groups, as the vast majority of the humanities represented by governments that define them as resistance factions, including the government of Switzerland. more neutral than the government of Switzerland. It doesn't prescribe these organizations for the record. So to be clear, you think their resistance not terrorists? Yes.

Okay, we've got there. Let me bring in Brigitte Gabriel. Bridget, you listen to what Loki has to say. He's not alone in this thought. I've heard this from many pro-Palestinian guests on uncensored in the last year. What is your response? Well, I want to start with the accusation of the occupation.

Israel was minding its own business ever since it existed. It reached out to the Arabic world that wanted to have peace with the Arabic world. In 1964, when the PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization was founded, the West Bank was in the hands of Jordan. It was Jordan. And Gaza was in the hands of Egypt. It was Egypt. So the PLO was founded in 1964, not because of any occupation.

They wanted to drive the Jews into the sea and get. a thread of every single Jew in the Middle East. Israel tried to repeat it. The only reason the Palestinian lost that in 67 and they lost Gaza and the West Bank is because they preempted an attack against Israel. And over and over again, Israel reached out to them to make peace with them. In 2000, a hood Barack offered them 97% of the territories back and they refused it again and again and again. In 2005, when Israel withdrew out of Gaza, They said, okay, we're going to give you your own state. We're going to give you your own territory.

Israel forcibly removed its own people fighting the IDF by force. Remove them out of Gaza. Not only remove the people, they dug out dead Jews' bones from the cemeteries because they knew exactly what the Palestinians are going to do to the cemeteries. So in 2005, when Israel withdrew out of Gaza, there wasn't one Jew alive or dead in Gaza. They turned over the key to them and said, okay, great. Now, build your own place. You are independent. I know people that they, Israel even even left them the greenhouses. Israel was exporting 50 million flowers to Europe in 2004 out of Gaza.

The greenhouses, the fruits, the vegetables, the flowers. They left them to the Palestinians so the Palestinians can start a, they can have an industry where they can support themselves. I know a businessman from New York who even raised $14 million to make sure the Palestinians will be able to get salaries as they move over and they continue building the greenhouses. And what did the Palestinians do within 24 hours after Israel withdrew? Not only they destroyed every single Jewish synagogue in the area, they destroyed the greenhouses, ripped out the pipe and even stole the copper out of the pipe. And then they had an election. So in their first election, the first woman elected to the cabinet of Hamas was a woman by the name Om Nidal, the mother at Omel Mughal Mughal,

her, the mother of the resistance. And she ran on the platform. I killed three of my sons, because she had videos of her sons, she dressing them in suicide bombers to go killed Israelis. She said, I already gave up three for the cause. I have another seven to give. That's why she was elected. So that's a democratic election for Hamas. Israel did not put the Palestinians in a prison in Gaza. Hamas put the Palestinians in a prison in Gaza. Gaza could have been turned. into Singapore. They had the money. They had more money faring

into the Palestinian territories and still do from all over the world. And what did they do with it? Build a ton of infrastructure underneath bigger than the subway system in New York instead of helping their people. So those who scream about the occupation, occupation, the Palestinians

have brought this on themselves again and again and again. Wow. But do you accept that Palestinians should have the same human rights as the rest of it? Absolutely. All humans should are equal in the eyes of God. How can they do that? Okay, but here's the thing, but when it comes to this issue of occupation, I was very struck at the start of the response to October the 7th, that very quickly Israel was able to turn on or off the tap of energy, the tap of water, the food supply, etc. That is only achievable if you are effectively occupying another country. Otherwise, you're not. able to do it. So Israel has had this control over Gaza and the people that live there,

which to me does not afford those people the same human rights as Israelis enjoy. It's inarguable because if they didn't have that control, they couldn't turn on and off the energy or the water supplies. But why did Israel get to this point? Remember, in 2005 they gave them everything and they said, we are out. The Israelis even fought among themselves because, you know, Some people did not want to hold of all. I think what I think what I think what I think what is it isn't I think Hamas squandered all the money they were given and Hamas has been the enemy of its own people. And when Hamas did what they did in October the 7th, they knew it was immediately sentencing to death thousands of their own people in the process. They knew that.

Right. So I think Hamas has got to go. I think Netanyahu has to go as well and his right wing head bang cabinet members who do speak in a genocidal way. None of this is ever going to lead to peace. But let me ask you. about Loki's claims about October the 7th. He says that there was this Hannibal directive. It's been much speculated.

Harit says that they found evidence there was. The IDF has never admitted there was a Hannibal directive. But it is possible in the fog of war that day that I guess some of the casualties came because of Israeli fire. We don't know that. But Loki wants people to believe hundreds and hundreds of people who died that day on the Israeli side. were killed by Israel? I don't believe that. That has not proven.

And if I have to choose between believing the Hamas talking point, who controlled the Ministry of Information and the Israeli IDF, I would believe the IDF because I have lived in Israel as a Lebanese. At one point, I had a home in Lebanon, a home in Israel, and my boyfriend who lived in the West Bank at that time. And I worked as a journalist. And knowing how the IDF operates and knowing how the Israeli military operates, They operate by rules.

They don't invent information like Hamas does. And when you are in the throes of things like what happened in October 7s, a lot of people do not know a lot of the facts that happened on the ground. But we do know one thing that Hamas committed such atrocities and we're so proud filming it and showing it that will give you goosebumps

that a lot of people can get sick, they cannot view it. And I'm shocked that Loki hasn't even viewed the footage. You have to view the footage to understand the monstrosity of the crimes that were committed on that day. Yeah, I mean, I watched this BBC documentary, which had all the footage from the music festival. And honestly, Loki, it was one of the most sickening two hours of my entire life. Have you been on social media for the past year?

Yes, I have. You have seen a constant stream of mutilated children. You have seen a constant stream of people being lifted up out of the rubble. How can you even bring into the conversation two hours of footage in comparison to 12 months and 77 years of this type of treatment. But I have a question. I have a question for the guest. I would like to ask this question. Now, the Organization Act for America, which you represent and are a part of, seems to be quite the patriotic outfit. It's also been criticized widely as Islamophobic,

but I have some questions about the finances of your organization. It's funded by the Fairbrook Foundation. which has funded the Central Fund of Israel, the Zionist Organization of America, and also illegal settlements in the West Bank. In addition to that, your organization... It's funded by America. Has been funded by the Becker Foundation, which has funded Christians United for Israel

and the Israel Project. In addition to that, your organization was also funded by the MES Foundation, which funded the Israel Project, the Central Fund of Israel, and the Zionist Organization of America. How in any way do you stand for peace when the organization which you front and presumably are employed by

is also funded by organizations that are invested in illegal settlement in the West Bank? Actually, my organization, which I run and I'm the founder and chairman, I not only work for it, was founded after September 11th to protect America against the threat of radical Islamic terrorism. It shares funders. It shares funders with those building illegal settlements in the West Bank. You already spoke your mind. You already spoke your mind.

Now it's my time to answer. My organization was founded to impact policy in the United States, to protect the United States from the threat of radical Islamic terrorism coming from Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Husbalah, or whoever happened the terrorist organization are. We work with Muslims. We have Muslims on our board. We have Muslims who are members. We had every single comfort.

we had. We always had a keynote speaker who is Muslim that speak because they care about America. You know what, I feel like we're getting, listen, I feel like we're getting, Brigitte, I feel like we're getting a bit. I feel like we're getting a bit. Look, fascinating though it is the makeup of your business. It's not really the point of what this debate is, right? Right. It's not the point exactly. But the point I would make, Brigitte, is this. I do think Loki has a good point about the settlements, right? What is going on in the West Bank with this rapid aggressive expansion of settlements is completely outrageous.

It's illegal, it's wrong, it shouldn't be happening. Why is it happening? Sorry, you cut out. You mean the settlements in the West Bank? The expansion of settlements on the West Bank in the last year has been completely outrageous.

Well, look, there's a radical wing within Israel that wants to expand the settlements. And the settlement is an issue. I agree with you. They are a lot of people who are very upset about the settlement. You're funded by the same organizations. What does this have to do with the funding of what we're talking about? They are Americans who support the funding of protecting the United States, not Israel.

Mawar War is devoted to protecting the United States. We have the documents. We have the documents. Let's get back to the bigger picture. So, Brigitte, do you condemn the expansion of the settlements in the last year on the West Bank? Say that again? Do you condemn the expansion of the settlement? the settlements on the West Bank in the past year?

Yes, I do. I think they are going overboard with the settlement. I think somebody needs to revisit looking at the settlement and how they are expanding. Okay, then that's good. Loki, do you condemn what Hamas did on October the 7th? I have a question for you based on what you just said about settlements. I'll answer your question in a second.

She's made an admission that she condemns it. No, she condemns the expansion of settlements. Loki, fine. And these people also fund her. At some point, you are going to... At some point, Loki, you are going to answer some of my question. Which I have done. Okay, do you condemn what Hamas did?

You've already asked me that. Not directly. You haven't answered. I will not condemn people based on Israeli military talking points. Okay, good. But I have a question for you. You don't condemn mass murder? Obviously, I condemn mass murder. You won't condemn it by Hamas?

You're talking about a specific political context in which the information is not clear. I'm talking about mass murder of people on October the 7th. By the Israeli military. See, it's just absurd. So I have a question for you. I think you lose all credibility when you say that. I have a question for you. I'm not concerned about whether you think or don't think I have credibility.

It's not the issue to me. So I don't come of this from supporting the other. Over the other. Are you sure about that? Yeah. Are you sure about that? Absolutely sure. I have a question.

What's your question? Rupert Murdoch. Yeah. NewsCore International. Yeah. Which employed you for several years. Yes. Which actually is still, it employs me now.

It employs you now. Yeah. Okay, we're getting to the issue. What do you think the issue is? I saw what you tweeted. What does it have to do with me? Not my tweets. I have a question for you.

NewsCourt International had a charitable arm which funded the Jerusalem Foundation which builds illegal settlements. What's it got to do with me? Illegal settlements in Jerusalem. Do you condemn Rupert Murdoch? What's it got to do with me? Do you condemn Rupert Murdo?

I'm not talking about Rupert Murdoch. Do you condemn Rupert Murdoch? This here, this has never been shown on British media. This is a... letter from Netanyahu's political office. And Bridget may well recognize the handwriting of Benjamin Netanyahu here. It is a list of individuals that Netanyahu considered to be funders of his political campaign. There is a name on this list. The name is Rupert Murdoch. Your employer.

It seems he funded Benjamin Netanyahu. That's an issue. You know what? It's not an issue for me. It's an issue. And actually is in the interest of objectivity. Understand one thing. That you state it. Rupert Murdoch can speak for himself. I've got a problem with him. Take it up with him. I do. I can tell you, categorically,

he has never had a single conversation with me about anything I put on Pierce Morgan unscences. Sam kindly resigned from the Times newspaper because of Murdoch's investments and bias towards Israel. This, this document, this letter clearly shows Benjamin Netanyahu noting Rupert Murdoch considering him to be a funder of his political company. You're a rapper, yeah? That's an issue.

You're a rapper. Do you condemn P Diddy? Yes. Great. You see how easy it is? You take it out of your obsession, which is that you hate Israel so much you can't condemn anything that people do to them? We see the situation differently.

Not really. My loyalty is to the people of the camp. I agree with you a lot more. I agree with you a lot more than you realize. I view myself as loyal to the people of the camps, to the people under the bombs. I do not view myself as low. loyal to somebody that would end up on a list of potential funders of Benjamin Netanyahu.

I like Rupert Murdoch enormously. And you won't condemn his funding of Merdo. If you have a common. You won't condemn his funding in Netanyahu. You don't condemn mass murder. You don't condemn mass murder. Oh, I do. Condem the Israeli military for mass murder of Israeli captains.

Had you bothered to watch this program for the last year, you would see I regularly condemn them. It's not condemnation. You don't think what Hamas did was murder, do you? It gives resistance. I think the vast majority of humanity perceive asymmetrical warfare by developed militaries against... The vast majority of humanity

are post-colonial subjects, peers. They came out of decolonization. So their conception of these issues is just not the same as yours, unfortunately. We will have to disagree, but that's fine. No problem. All right? It was good to meet you. Thank you for coming in.

Thank you very much indeed for joining me. I appreciate it too. We'll move on. Listen, this story won't go away. Come back or debate it again. Thank you. Remember, I agree with more than you think with what you say. Okay.

All right. But at some point, you've got to have a little bit of something about you that says that some things that people do to Israel can also be wrong. You don't think so. I mean, you're misrepresenting my... Am I? If you think of one thing people have done to Israel, that's wrong? I think giving it $8.7 billion in military aid

after it's carried out a terrorist attack. So no attack on Israel has ever been anything but justified. I think Zionism as a project is unsustainable. It's unsustainable. Can you think of one thing? It's unsustainable. Is there one thing that's been done to Israel that you think is wrong? Not right now.

Okay. And that's... I'll let you know. In its way, Loki, that's very illuminating. No problem. Good to see you. Thanks too.