Piers Morgan Uncensored - Roger Waters Uncensored

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

As the man behind rock revolutionaries Pink Floyd, Roger Waters is music royalty.  He’s still filling stadiums after six decades in the business. Dark Side of the Moon remains one of the most iconic and acclaimed records in music history. But his critics say there’s a dark side to Roger Waters, too, namely his contentious views on political lightning rods such as Putin, Israel and Donald Trump. Piers once uncharitably described him as “the dumbest rockstar in history.” He one accused Piers, of being part of a media conspiracy to cancel him. Well, he got the call. And delighted to say Roger Waters joined us in the Uncensored studio... Piers Morgan Uncensored is the global arena for fearless debate, bold opinions and major interviews. Subscribe for all-new and exclusive daily content.  YouTube: @PiersMorganUncensored X: @PiersUncensored TikTok: @piersmorganuncensored Insta: @piersmorganuncensored Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When I take my stand for human rights, I'm not mucking around. I don't care what they throw at me. They are very powerful. Who are you talking about? All Palestinians should have exactly the same human legal rights as all Israeli Jews. Eric said that he sees me waking up in tears. I do. I believe there should be a two-state solution.

It's not going to happen. Nor is your plan on social media. Roger, calm down. Don't seem to this level. What level? There's no evidence. There is no evidence. There is no ever.

But you seem to have done extremely little reading about anything that happened to Israelis over. Are you deaf? The star of David is the emblem of a Jewish person. You're on your own. How to say this in a way you'll understand. No! You're so clever.

Do you know what? It wasn't that clever. As a man behind rock revolutionary He's Pink Floyd, Roger Waters, is music royalty. He's still filling stadiums after six decades in the business. Dark Side of the Moon remains one of the most iconic and acclaimed records in music history. His critics say there's a dark side to Roger Waters too, naming his contentious views on political lightning rods like Putin, Israel, Donald Trump, and many more.

I once perhaps uncharacterily described him as the dumbest rock star in history. He once accused me of being part of a media conspiracy to cancel him. My story is yet another story of cancel culture. Why are they trying to cancel Roger Waters? Why aren't they real journalists going, hang on a minute, this is bullshit. Maybe I'll call up and see what he has to say. Why aren't you?

Pierre Morgan, eh? Well, we got the call. I'm delighted to say Roger Waters is here in the studio, and I suspect will be most definitely uncensored. Roger, good to see you. Good to see you. I'm glad to see you can read. That's a good thing.

That's a step in the right direction. Well, I like to think that reading is a prerequisite of an interviewer. Well, it's a prerequisite of almost anything, I think. As my own mum used to say to me, I'm sure you've heard this story, but I'm going to tell you it again. And this was when I was... Read, read, read, read, she used to say to you. When I was about 13 years old, she said, you're going to come up with all kinds of things in your future that you have to think about and figure out and make your mind.

up about and when you do my advice to you is read read read read everything you can find about whatever the subject is and blah blah blah blah when you've done that you've done all the heavy lifting the next bit is easy oh really mum what's the next bit then she said then roger you do the right thing and that was great advice from my mum too well i can only tell you that i've always by my brother was an army colonel. He had an unofficial regimental motto, the 7Ps, prior planning and preparation prevent piss poor performance, which is not dissimilar.

And the fact that I applied the 7Ps means I knew what your mother's advice to you was. So at least we passed that hurdle. You've lost me. Have I? Yeah, I'm not very good at military. Really? Unlike your brother. Was it your brother or your mother?

He was an army colonel, yeah. The 7Ps, prior planning and preparation. No, no, I heard the words you said. prevent piss poor performance. It's all that hard to understand, Roger. Come on. It reminds me of a joke that a friend of mine who was in the army told me. Hang on.

And it was a message sent back from the front to headquarters. And the message was, send reinforcements we're going to advance. And they did advance and nothing had happened. And it was a terrible disaster. Eventually the bloke came back from headquarters. And he went, there are. And the officer looked at him. He said, what's that?

It's from Headquarters, sir. I've just come back with that. He said, well, what is it? He said, well, we've got a message. It said, send three and four points. We're going to a dance. That's a terrible joke. Thank you very much.

Absolutely terrible joke. Interestingly, about war and army and military, one of the more interesting aspects of your own early life was your father, Eric, who in World War II, and correct me if I'm wrong about any of you, of this. But in World War II, in the early years, was a conscientious objector who drove an ambulance during the Blitz. He later changed his stance on pacifism, joined the territorial army, and was commissioned into the 8th Battalion Royal Fusiliers as a second lieutenant on 11th of September

1943. And he was killed five months later on the 18th of February 1944 at Apprilla in Italy during the Battle of Anzio. And you were just five months old. And he's now commemorated in Apria and the Casino War Cemetery. And you actually in 2014 unveiled a memorial to your father and the other war casualties from Apprilla in Italy.

And you were made an honorary citizen of Anzio. I mean, there's a lot to unpacked there. But I guess the overarching thing for me was to lose your dad so young was obviously a huge blow, even though I guess you would have known very little about that. My father died when I was not even one, so I can perhaps understand a little of a sort of complex feeling of not knowing somebody in that position. But secondly,

whether your views of military action, of warfare, were remotely dictated to by your father's own positions and shifting positions? Well, we're all product of our part. He wasn't ever a territorial, by the way. Oh, he was... He joined the Royal Fusily. Right. So he went back to the conscription board after he changed his mind because he was a conscientious objector in 1939 when he was called up

because of the Sixth Commandment, which is, Thou shalt not kill, as you know. So yes. So he was a very Christian man, wasn't he? He was very Christian, yeah. And so when he went back, it was a... It's an act of heroism in my view. And so it's something that has colored my whole life

to know that that's what my father did. So he believed that the Nazis had to be fought and that his politics, because by that time he'd become a member of the Communist Party, that his politics trumped his Christianity. And so he had to go and do his duty. But you're right about February the 18th and you're right about Apulia.

And I did go there. to unveil that monument that was all the work of a wonderful old friend of mine who died last year called Harry Schindler, who interestingly enough... Was he related to Oscar Schindler or? Harry Schindler? Yeah. Was he any relation to Oscar Schindler? I've no idea. Of Schindler's list?

No, no, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. No, I don't think he was. He was a vigil in London, but he was also a young soldier on the Anzio Bridgehead, 10 years younger than the... than my father was. He was a show at Forrester. And he since the war, he moved to Italy. And he started an association for ex-allied servicemen from Italy. And he saw me do a TV interview when I was looking,

trying to find out when my father had died back in, I think, 2015 when I was traveling around. And he went, he'd no idea who I was. never heard of Pink Floyd. Really? Yeah. But he thought, I'm going to try and find... And he did. And so he found the document, the day brief from 8th Battalion, Robert Fli, Z Company. Yeah, Z company. My father was a platoon commander in, and they were all killed. They got cut off. It was the big German push to push the bridgehead back into the sea. Anyway, it's a long story.

But yes, of course, it's hugely important in my life. Funny enough, there's a song on my new record. which I've been performing in show's life that goes, before I was born, my brother used to sit on daddy's lap when he was home on leave. Dad did smoke a cigarette and sometimes as a jest he'd blow smoke rings up my big brother's sleeve. More fire, Daddy, my big brother would shout. At least that's how the story has survived.

I was mercifully spared the memories that they shared because I was only five months old when Daddy died. Yeah, you were. Incredibly young. I assume you have no actual tangible memory. No. What do you think you've got from him in terms of your personality? I do the right thing.

I'm happy to say that that's something that I've taken with me so far in my life, and I will continue to do the right thing until the day I die. Do you accept that your idea of the right thing may not always be the right thing? Well, if it's the right thing for me, I guess it is the right thing. No, I'm not omnipotent or omniscient. Right. I'm just wondering how... I haven't yet read all the books. I haven't studied all the wise men throughout history.

But none of us have. So we have to take a view, given the piece of history that we're living. But you accept you could be wrong about things. This is what you do. What's this little trap you're trying to say? There's no trap at all. All right. I'm wondering how certain you are, because you're a controversial guy, so am I.

And I followed everything that you've done. I think some of it has been massively overblown. I think some of it legitimate, there's legitimate criticism to be made. But the overarching theme is you're very opinionated. You speak your mind. I'm only curious whether you have a certainty that you're right or that you allow for the possibility that however well read you've been

about any particular issue, you could occasionally be wrong. Of course I allow for that possibility. Absolutely. But the foundation of my opinions, for instance, is based on solid things. So the platform upon which I stand by and large is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

from the fledgling United Nations on the 10th of December in Paris in 1948. I've read that document, obviously, the 30 articles of it. I've taken them to heart. And it is my belief that we, the people of the world, should observe those basic rights for all our brothers and sisters all over the world, irrespective of their ethnicity or religion. Well, let me start with an unequivocal agreement.

I agree. Our work here is done. That's it. That's the end of the conversation. There's no point in continuing this conversation. Well, we are going to continue. But actually on that point, it's an important point to reach unanimity over, right?

I mean, I agree with you. I've watched your programme a lot. And I confess peers that you don't always seem to be of the same opinion as me about the 30 articles of the Universal Declaration. Well, I've always said that I believe, Look, we're going to come to Israel, Palestine, in a moment. I've always said that I believe every Palestinian should be entitled

to exactly the same human rights as every Israeli, for example. I've been unwavering on that. Now, we'll come to the war on what's happened and the history and everything in a moment. But first, I wanted to start with Eric Clapton, who recently gave an interview in which he said about you, I love Roger, I love him. We are brothers, and he goes his way about it, and it takes a little guts, and he suffers from it terribly.

I've seen him sit on the window ledge in tears and say, it's morning here in Manhattan, and I'm in tears again, you know? What did you think of that when he said that? Eric, well, it's deeply moving to me because we are friends. We go back a long way. Well, we go back to 1985. I hardly met the man before then. But then he made a record with me,

pros and cons of itch hiking. And actually, he then persuaded. me to tour with it. When we finished making the record, he went, you are touring with this. And I went, no. And he went, because I'd already, anyway, he went, no, I've just left Pink Floyd and whatever. And he said, you have to, this is great. And I went, all right, you come in my band as my guitar player then. And he went, all right. And I was, you could have blown me, I've knocked me down with a feather. I was so surprised. I went, are you serious? And he went, yeah, I am. I'll come.

So we went on the road. And I've had no regrets. It was brilliant. And we have been very close friends since then. And I think El became politicised more powerfully than he had been. He's always had a big heart, Eric, and whatever. Over the whole COVID thing. Yeah, he did.

And the MRNA controversy. And I think. he was right. But let's not get into that because that is somebody else's problem. Okay, so that's not something that we're going to start thinking about. What I was struck by on what he said was that he used the phrase a lot of guts. Do you think it's courageous the stances you take? I've no idea. That's not for me to say. But I will say this. I, when I take my stand for human rights. I'm not mucking around. I'm serious about it. And I don't care what they throw at me. And we know who I'm talking about. And they are very powerful. Who are you talking about?

The Israeli lobby, obviously. Well, actually, it's not just the Israeli lobby. It's the war machine as well. It's the war lobby. So, so anyway, so yeah, have I paid a price? Yeah, a bit of one. But I've been lucky, you know, I've been very successful in my chosen career. And so I've never wanted for a few quid. I don't invest. I'm not a capitalist. How much are you worth? That's none of your business. It's been reported as over 300 million. It's none of your business, Pierce. Are you deaf? I can see you can read, but you're obviously a little bit deaf. It's none of your business, sunshine. It's been reported. Okay. You admit you're a very wealthy guy.

I'm not going to talk about my personal wealth. It's none of your business, and it's none of it. And it doesn't matter. What does matter is that I have stood up for human rights all my life. Ever since the day that I marched, you know, for the first time in 1960 or whenever it was, from all the Malston to Trafalgar Square, and listened to Bertrand, Russell, and Cannon Collins, and Father Trevor Huddleston standing there in Trafalgar Square

and explaining to us that the independent nuclear deterioration, was a terrible mistake, which it was and which it still is, which is something that I also say, at the end of every single gig that I do, I do a song called Two Suns in the Sunset, which is a warning about how we might wake up one morning and the Third World War started. Well, we might, but we might also, if you were Ukrainian,

think that actually having a nuclear deterrent might stop Russian dictators invading you. We'll come to that. We'll come to that. All right, okay. All right. In other words, there are two ways looking at all these things, and we're going to explore them, right?

There's no two ways at looking at the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. You either believe in it or you don't, and you cannot cherry pick it. And what you said earlier about, excuse me, don't interrupt, what you said earlier was that Palestinians, all Palestinians, should have exactly the same human, religious, civil, legal rights as all Israeli Jews. I agree with that. And when that is one unified democratic. state that they live in together with equal human rights for all the citizens of that country,

from the River Jordan to the sea. That will be a starting point from which they can all move on. And I hope they do. But it's not for me to say what happened. It's for me to say what I feel about that. Oh my God. I want to be there standing in that square when that state is declared there. I want to be there on that day to embrace all my brothers and sisters, whether they're Muslim, Druze, agnostic, Christian or Jewish, and whether their nationality was Palestinian or Lebanon or whatever, or Israeli.

I want to see them free of the burden of this constant war. But you talk about a state there, not a two state? The two state solution, everybody, you know, with an IQ above room temperature, agrees, is an non-starter because of Erats, Israel and what's happened and all the building in the West Bank and what's happening in Gaza now, of course, as well. Well, let me play you a clip.

This is from a month ago. This was on your YouTube channel. It's not George Galloway, is it? No, no. It's from your own YouTube channel. It's called Resist the Genocide. And you said this. This is all over. Israel is going to have to apologize,

not just to the Palestinians, but to the whole of the rest of the world. We're very sorry, we've got it all completely wrong, and we are now leaving Eastern Europe or the United States and wherever we came from and leave these people, the Palestinian people, people whose land this is. So if they can, rebuild and live in peace. Well, hang on, you didn't play the

rest of it. But it said, of course, any of you want to stay will be welcome to stay as citizens of this new state. But the state, to be clear, would be Palestine. Well, my personal opinion is that that would be what it should be called. It was called Palestine up to 1948. And it could, but hang on a minute, that's an open discussion. I heard, excuse me, stop interrupting me. I heard somebody suggest the other day, it could be called the Holy Land. I actually made that suggestion sometime ago. And I've been persuaded away from that idea by conversations I've had with other things. No, it's Palestine. Let's call it Palestine. But that's not my business. That's for all the people who live there to decide. You say it's not your business, Roger, but with respect, when you say

that all the Israelis should just up seven million of them, well, hang on, should just get up and go. All right. Let me have my say. You've just shown that out of of context without showing the second half of it, fine. Or what? I look miserable. I was. I'm in Barbados. I'm talking to my phone.

When you said that Eric said that he sees me waking up in tears, I do. I am prepared to admit that I am in tears over Gaza every morning when I wake up. Because I'm only 80 years old. I have never experienced the genocide of a lot. whole people in front of my eyes happening every day, every day, the calumny. Well, you have. With respect, you have. You were born in World War II when there was an actual genocide of Jewish people by the Nazis.

I was that big. What? I was that big. I didn't witness that. You were alive, is my point. Well, I wasn't talking about being alive. I'm saying I never witnessed it. You can't witness something.

Number six million Jews were killed of a Nazi. You cannot witness something. Well, I'm not saying they weren't. And was that, a disgusting, awful crime? Yeah, it was. Just like this one is a disgusting awful crime. But my question for you... There's no difference.

But Roger, my question for you is this. When you say that you need to have the whole world saying, we're very sorry, we got it wrong, but now leaving, go back to Eastern Europe or the United States or wherever you came from. Yes. Do you understand how Israelis feel when they hear that? Well, it depends which Israelis they are.

And frankly, and frankly, the fact is that some... something has to be, or would you suggest, no, let's just let them kill all the Palestinians. Why don't we just let them kill them? I believe there should be a two-state solution. Well, it's not going to happen, but I don't want to argue with you about it. Well, nor is your plan. You're not going to have seven million Israelis being set back to Europe or the United States. I tell you what, let me speak on behalf of we, the people of the world, because we, the people of the world, whatever the... You just speak for the whole world, do you?

God's sake. Well, come on, Roger. We have a civilized conversation. You can't have a civilised conversation with somebody who constantly interrupts. Okay. Nor can you speak unfettered without be correcting some of the things you're saying or challenging you. You accept that. I was about to say something and you're doing it again. My apologies. I accept your apology.

Thank you. Please don't do it again, Pierce. Right. Most of the people of the world do not want the Israelis to continue in their inexorable course to the end of their extermination of the indigenous people of Palestine. That's all I'm saying. So something has to happen that is not that.

So if you say there are two possible alternatives, a two-state solution, and that's been on the table. Let's not forget. Certainly since the end of the 67 war. And let's not go back into the old stuff about, oh, well, the Palestinians turned it down. No, they don't.

is a barefaced lie. What Arafat do? No, he didn't. That is a barefaced lie. I'm not going to argue the toss with you. I know it is. If you don't know it is, you haven't yet done the weed. Oh, I have.

And I've actually interviewed people like Bill Clinton who were involved with. Bill Clinton. Dear God, anyway, I won't go about that. You would believe Arafat over Clinton? Of course. Really? Yeah. Arifat's dead, sadly.

But you see, this is what, now, this is what I should. shouldn't get sucked into because the you're wrong I'm right nature of this program is what's wrong with it I know you think what's right with it. But that is what's right with it. Yes it's you say something and I challenge you and maybe you change my mind which maybe by the way you might do it's the you're wrong I'm right confrontational it's the confrontation which is what you get is you your clicks well why you're here confrontation out of interest I'll tell you why I'm here. I'll tell you why I'm here. because we're having a general election in England at the moment. And I've come over here to help four or five people

who are standing as independents and different constituencies in the United Kingdom. Because they, like me, believe in human rights. Kirstama doesn't and Rishi Sunak don't. They've shown it. And one of the ways they've shown it is in their support for the state of Israel and to continue to arm Israel,

it's genocide of the Palestinians. side of the Palestinian people. Now, those people include Andrew Feinstein. Andrew Feinstein is standing as an independent in the constituency of Hoban and St. Pancras against Kiyos-Kia St. Stama, who is the possible incumbent prime minister of this country. So if we, Andrew Feinstein and his team mainly, but if I can help him, I will, get a majority of the people, to vote for him, to Feinstein instead of Stama, to forget the general politics of the United Kingdom for a moment, and to accept that the most important thing

that we're all fighting for at the moment is around Gaza and around the extermination of the people of Palestine because what we're fighting for is the soul of the human race. We're fighting to try and achieve a future, where we understand that things like right and wrong exist, and we have to stand up for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Excuse me. No, not yet. Andrew Feinstein will and Kirstarmer won't.

We know Kirstama's a bald man. I wouldn't believe him, you know, if... Well, we know Kirsteemba. Well, George Galloway last week told me he would trust Vladimir Putin over Kirstama. Would you? Did he? Well, obviously, you only have to listen to what the two men say. believe Putin over Starmer. Why not? But why would they be having a conversation about anything

apart from, let's make Ukraine into a NATO country, which is which... Well, we'll come to Ukraine. Can I just pick you up on one thing you said? I have to have a conversation. I haven't finished about Andrew Feinstein. Excuse me. So that's deeply important. There are others. There are two young women who I interviewed a couple of days ago and they're up. Double down news, man. I saw it. All right. Okay. One is called Fiona Lali and she's a young who I think you've spoken to him maybe you have maybe you're and then there's Leanne Muhammad who's standing in North Ilford okay and then there's my friend Craig Murray who's standing up in how many holes are there Blackburn Lancashire see I went to the Beatles song a beetle fantasy

you have to and whatever and George obviously is in Rochdale is he so I'm I'm if I can help swing any of those constituents towards these people who believe in human rights, away from somebody like Stama or West Street, who don't believe in human rights. You have to look at their record and you say, yes, you must be. So I understand that you and many people share your view that they believe that Israel is perpetrating a genocide on Gaza. And you talk about wanting to eliminate the people of Gaza. But surely that clip that I played, when you talk about the Israelis having to go back to where they come from.

If they could apologize for what they do. No, Roger, let me ask a question. On that point of wherever you come from, back to Eastern Europe, wherever you come from, to tell seven million people to go back where they come from, many people would view that as racist. And in the case of Israelis, to be anti-Semitic, something you've been accused of being. Now, do you understand why they would take it that way? Absolutely, of course I do.

We have to remember that most of the population of Israel are young, much younger than me, even younger than you, if such a thing was possible. And they have been pretty well brainwashed into believing that they are superior to the other people who live there. And I have to say the thing about Eastern Europe or North Eastern Europe and the United States, They've tried to sell us this idea that somehow they are biblical people and that God has given them the land. That's what the Christian evangelicals believe. All I'm saying is that they're not indigenous people, most of them.

There are a few of the Jewish people who are citizens of Israel who are indigenous to the area. But back in the 19th century, that was only 7 or 8% of the population. Can I respond? Yes, of course. So ancient Egyptian records mention Israel from 1213 BC. Religious literature records Israelites as far back as 1500 BC. As far as many Jewish people are concerned, this is where they come from.

Within Judaism, Israel is the holy land. It's the land where the faith began. Jerusalem is the holy city. For Jews, Jerusalem is at the core of their faith in their world. Now, I believe you're an atheist. Is that correct? That is correct. So you may not understand or accept that,

but that is how millions of people in Israel feel. They believe this is their original holy land. Now, I think that the displacement of the Palestinians back in 1948 was appalling. I also think the simultaneous virtually displacement of many Jewish people from their homes was also appalling. All of it was appalling.

And you can create a narrative that would be supportive of both sides and critical of the other sides. But there's no doubting that Jewish people, people believe this is their holy land too in the way that many Palestinians do. I haven't read that book, I admit, and I'm not sure I want to because I've only got a few years, well, how many years I've got left is irrelevant. You're doing better than the President of the United States, aren't you?

I beg your pardon. You're doing a lot better than the President of the United States. Yes, I am. The mental acuity appears to be much sharper. Anyway, let me finish. All of what you're saying, though, may be fascinating to historians and Jewish scholars and scholars of other religions, but it's completely irrelevant to the the genocide that is going on now in the West Bank and Gaza.

It's not irrelevant to why Jewish people, when you say, you should all... It's not irrelevant to why they think they have a right to commit genocide. No, I didn't say that. Well, what is all this stuff from me? No, I'm just going to say that, again, referring to the quote from your own mouth, when you say to seven million people, go back to Eastern Europe, the United States, or wherever you came from, many will believe, if not most of people in Israel,

will believe that this is where they originally came from. What I say in that little video is, I think you made a terrible mistake, and I think you should now say, we're sorry, it was a terrible mistake. Just look at what's happened. This is obviously a completely failed experiment. Zionism, the whole thing is a failed experiment,

and we're going to leave you to live your lives in your country. Maybe a few of us will stay, or maybe we'll all stay, but we all have to live together with equal rights from the river. But this new state to be clear, we'll be... Hang on, hang on, let me finish. That's all. I.e., I'm going to keep dragging this conversation back to these two things. Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the genocide that the state of Israel is committing on the Palestinian people.

And I don't care about what your history books from Egypt. I'm not saying you're wrong. I haven't read them. And frankly, I couldn't care. I thought you did care about reading and getting more knowledgeable. See, there you go, you're so clever. I just remembered what you said. It's not that clever.

That says I've got a good memory. Do you know what? No, you're right. It wasn't that clever. Okay. Let's go back to... No, let's stay on the genocide. It's either all right or it's not.

I'm coming to that. And it doesn't matter what happened in the history of the Israelites. I'm coming to this. Okay. Let's go back to October the 7th, 2023. when the Hamas attacks occurred. George Galloway was here last week, and he described them as terror attacks.

Do you agree with that? I'm not going to have this conversation. I've seen you have it with everybody, and it's a waste of time. Why? Because you always reach the same conclusions, and you always waste 10 or 12 minutes. Let's waste one minute.

All I ever ask people is, do you condemn what Hamas did? I condemn the killing of civilians, always, whoever does it, wherever it is. I condemn war crimes. If Hamas committed war crimes on October the 7th, I condemn it. You referred earlier. Excuse me, you referred earlier to my conversation with Glenn Greenwald, which happened in December last year.

And I was taken to task after that because on his program, and this was only a few weeks after October 7th, I said, I would love to know what happened on October 7th so that we can all have a proper government. Well, Israelis won't allow any investigation. You suggested it might be a false flag operation. Well, we... Impliant that Israel created it. Hang on.

Maybe false flag is not exactly the right word, but why did they... Well, it's obviously not the right word. Can I finish? But you're wrong. All right, am I. Roger. Obviously, it wasn't a false flag. And the reason we know that is that Hamas broadcast in...

real time through video to social media what they were doing. There's nothing false flag about it. I'm not saying that part of the Palestinian resistance movement didn't cross that wire fence into what's called... Two thousand of them be. Hang on, how many. It doesn't really matter how many it was. I'm not saying they didn't do that.

I'm not saying that that didn't happen at all. What I'm saying is there's all this talk about does Israel have a right to defend it? defend itself. Why didn't Israel defend itself that morning? Why did they wait seven hours before they started machines going? It was a catastrophic failure of defence and security. And this is the most efficient security. Yeah, it's catastrophic. That's why when this is over, all right, you don't want to have that conversation, neither do I, but wouldn't it be great? Hang on, wouldn't it be great to have that conversation at some? And wouldn't it be great if we could have an actual real investigation beyond the very good Al Jazeera documentary that we all saw that came out

and all the great work that the grey zone and electronic indifold on people did in debunking all the filthy, disgusting lies that the Israelis told after October the 7th about burning babies and women being raped, which were all completely... Actually, women were raped. No, they were. Yes, they were. Well, there's no evidence. It's been established by the United Nations.

You can say anything that you want, but there's no evidence. Actually, there is extensive evidence. There is no evidence. There is no evidence. There is. Okay, well, all right. Also, we know what Hamas broadcast on social media. Roger, calm down.

Roger, Roger, calm down. Don't sink to his level. All right, I won't. What level? Stop shouting. Stop shouting. Sorry, Piers. What were you saying?

Look, let's not prolong the discussion about whether you believe what happened on October the 7th, other than me just to simply ask you. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to look at all the evidence and come to a grown-up conclusion rather than just saying this happened or that happened

or this did. Well, it's now been established that 1,200 people were killed of whom 400 were military, which means 800 innocent people were killed. Over 250 were then kidnapped, including Holocaust survivors who were grandparents and babies.

Do you accept that that happened? The people were kidnapped. Yeah. Absolutely. Do you accept the Holocaust survivors and babies were kidnapped? I don't know. about that. Oh yeah, I did. I saw one released. In the first set of release, there was somebody who was a Holocaust about it.

Why are you not curious to read about that, though? Well, I did. I did read about it. There were a number of old people and young people who were released, I don't know, sometime in November. The baby's never been released. I beg you, pardon. The baby was never released. The baby was kidnapped and never been released. Well, you know, peers, you may or may not just be making it. Making it up? It's not.

Babe, Pierce, I know you believe nonsense that you're told by Zaka and other people who made up tons of lies about October 7th. Who's Zaka, sorry. Oh, don't be silly. Who is that? Who you're talking about? You are kidding now. I don't know who you're talking about.

Zaka, it was an organization collecting bodies, paramedic. I've never heard of it. Well, you have no right to be having this conversation at all. What you have to do now, Pierce, is go and look through. go and look through all the documentation that there is and all the video evidence that there is of those paramedic people lying about burned babies and rape and babies in ovens and all the atrocity stories

that came out immediately... Excuse me, I haven't finished, immediately after October the 7th, that gave impetus to the idea somehow that to commit genocide on the people of... Gaza would be a reasonable defense against all those atrocities, which is the story that you, among others, have tried to sell to your audience. No, I haven't. I'll just try to get to the back.

I'm sorry. I apologize for accuses. Do you believe? Do you believe? Well, hang on, you need to look up Zaka. Look it up. And then maybe we could have another conversation, because until you know that story, you know... You seem to have done extremely little reading about anything that happened to Israelis that day.

That's law since. I've had long conversations, not least with my friend Gideon Levy, who's a journalist in Israel who writes... But do you actually believe Israel had anything to do with what happened that day? Israel. You suggested it was a false flag that would imply the Israeli government was something to do with it?

No, I've no idea. Why didn't they respond, though? They've tended to... Do you believe it logical that they would perpetrate that attack on their own people? I've no idea. No idea. Excuse me, they definitely attack their own people. That is absolutely cast iron.

All those piles of cars, they were destroyed by Apache missiles from helicopters. Amos didn't have helicopters. Do you think Hamas killed anybody that day? Yeah, of course I do. Yeah, and they probably kill civilians as well. Well, they acts of terrorism. To kill a civilian is a war crime. Act of terror?

Well, to use the word terrorism is really dangerous. and difficult because you have to remember that people fighting on behalf of Palestine liberation have a legal and moral what's the word I'm trying to search for? Not just a right

to defend themselves? No they have a right to fight back against the oppressor so somebody if somebody invades your country kicks all your people out of their homes, steals everything and is stealing all your land

and occupies all your land for 75 years, you have an absolute right to armed resistance. And not to commit war crimes? And not to commit war crimes? No, not to commit war crimes to armed resistance. Do you believe Hamas committed war crimes on October the 7th? Probably. Probably.

Yeah, probably. And you've seen what they actually broadcast themselves. Well, no, but the Israelis won't allow anybody to investigate it. And it's Israel. Hamas literally broadcast it from their own go-pros onto social media. They were live streaming the attacks on Jewish people. We're wasting time. I'm not saying that some people from her mouse

didn't fire their guns of people who were not armed. I'm sure they did. I'm sure they did. Okay. And I condemn it. I condemn that act, okay? Okay. But it cannot be seen that October the 7th cannot be seen on its end.

This is after 75 years. I agree. I didn't for a moment suggest it was. What I was curious about Yeah. Was that you tweeted at 4 o'clock that day, October the 7th, but not about the attacks. You were promoting your new album.

On October the 8th, again, promotion of your new album, nothing about the attacks. It was only on October the 14th, a week later, that you released a video about it. Why did it take you so long to respond to what was one of the worst terrorist attacks at times? My guess is, though, if you asked me to remember what I have,

on every day of all those intervening day. I think I was trying to find out what had actually happened because it was very, very confused. And the stories that were coming out were mind-bogglingly confusing in every way. And that's what I said to Glenn Greenwald when I did my interview with him. I said, I'd really like to know what happened, and I still would. And I'd still, I think, if I could wave a wadjerk wand, I would have an international UN-supported investigation into all the events of October 17 and after.

The UN has investigated it, and they have established a sexual assault and rape. No, they haven't. I've read those reports. That is not what they say. That is what they said. 364 civilians were killed, many, many, many were wounded by Hamas at the Supernova Sukkot gathering, the Open Air Music Festival. And after that... The music in that little film that you saw of me suggesting that the Israelis should say we're very, very, very sorry that we did this horrific thing that we've been doing and we'll go away now and hopefully you can live in peace in this land. Maybe some of us says the music in the back of it is music to a song I wrote around the time that you're talking about called Under the Rubble.

It's a very short song. There's very little to it. It just says, Papa, Papa, I want to go home. Papa, please take me home. That's a verse. And the second verse is, Mama, Mama, Daddy Stop Breathing, Mama. Who are you talking about that? I'm talking about children dying under the rubble murdered by this state of Israel.

What about the children who were killed at the music festival? Oh, my God. There were definitely music, you know, music festival. goes killed. I feel for them. Well, 364 would kill. Hang on a minute. There's a hundred thousand, there's 40,000 under the rubble at least. I'm just asking you because you're you, it's a false equivalent. I'm not equilating anything. You are. You're trying to suggest. Oh, here's why I've mentioned it, is that Bono from you two introduced his song pride of the name of love at the sphere in Vegas. And he said in light of what's happened in Israel and God.

The stars of David. Wait a minute. In the light of what's happened in Israel and And Gaza, a song about non-violence seems somewhat ridiculous, even laughable. But our prayers have always been for peace and for non-violence. But our hearts and our anger, you know where that's pointed. So sing with us and those beautiful kids of that music festival. He later referred to those killed by Hamas that day at the festival as Stars of David. Now, you responded on Al Jazeera by saying anyone who knows Bono should go and pick him up by his ankles and shake him until he stops being an enormous shit. we have to start saying to these people,

your opinion is so disgusting and so degrading, sticking up for the Zionist entity. What he did a couple of weeks ago, Misfair in Vegas, singing about the stars of David, was one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen in my life. Yes. How do you justify that? All he was doing was paying a tribute

to young music lovers at a music festival who happened to be Jewish. And the star of David is the emblem of a Jewish person. You're on your own. I'm not on my own. Yes, you are. Why? I don't understand why you'd be so hateful to bono.

Nice try, Pierce. Why were you so hate? It's none of your business. You said it publicly on TV. All right, so I said it. So it's not a private, is it? I was a bit upset. I'm watching a genocide.

I wake up in tears every morning. Don't you understand? Don't you get it? Yes. Okay, well... I understand the strength of your feeling. I don't understand why you seem to have very little feeling for the people who've died on the other side.

Because there's a few hundred of them. Especially music lovers. Because they, excuse me, because the state of Israel is, how do you get it into your thick head? They're committing genocide. They're killing every single Palestinian. They're going to kill every Palestinian in the West Bank. Their dream, and their leaders have said that, is Eretz Israel. Every single bit of was once Palestine becomes Israel.

They're not going to kill every Palestinian. Why? Oh, they're not? Well, they're trying to. Well, they're trying to kill every member of Hamas. Well, I personally believe, as I know you do, that I think they have massively, the response has been massively disproportionate. Way too many Palestinian civilians have died,

and because the population is half under 18, it is absolutely outrageous now that so many young people have been killed. But that doesn't change the fact that 364 Israeli civilians and other nationalities were killed that deadly music. Where's my camera? Bono sings a song about them and pays a tribute to them, you attack him. They said to me, you know what he's like? And I said, yeah.

What am I like? See, he's like that. All right. This is a complete false equivalence. I'm not making a false equivalence. He's interrupting again. Who are you talking to? I'm talking to the camera.

The oppressor, the state of Israel, is committing genocide on a whole people. Okay, some of the people in the prison where the genocide is being committed resisted. Resisted the genocide on October the 7th. And some people in Israel were killed and I'll feel for them and their families. But let's not forget where all this started. It started in May. I believe it was May. May even have been the 15th of May, 1948 at the Nakaba.

It's one set of people trying to steal a whole. land from another surf people. I remember having a conversation with Dionne Warwick about this. I said, Dion, I know how old you are. You're five years younger than me. In 1940, no, no, three years younger than me. In 1948, no, no, I'm talking to the audience. In 1948, Dionne Warwick was eight years old. She was living in Chicago. Dion, there's a bang on the door, right? You go to the door. There's a bloke there with a gun. He says, out, go and walk to Canada. But we live here. No, we're taking this house and this land and all your stuff.

Your father comes running downstairs. He says, what are you doing with my daughter? Bang, he's dead. He's lying on. You leave, you and your mum, and you start walking forward. How would you feel? This was in a conversation that I didn't have, but in a letter I wrote to Dionne Warwick,

after she had attacked me for being part of the BDS movement, where I tried to help the whole of Palestinian civil civil civil... society to persuade musicians not to go, excuse me, I haven't finished. Can we get back to an interview? It's not a lot along to the world. This is an interview. Come on. By the way, I agree with you about the Nakbar.

It was wrong. It shouldn't have happened, right? I've already said that. We agree. You've been accused of anti-Semitism by other people. Yeah. But in February 2023, Polly Samson, the former lyricist for Pink Floyd and the wife of Dave Gilmore from Pink Floyd, tweeted this.

Sadly, Roger Wall. you are anti-Semitic to your rotten core, also a Putin apologist, and a lying thieving, hypocritical, tax-avoiding, lip-syncing, misogynistic, sick with envy, megalomaniac. Enough of your nonsense. A few hours later, David Gilmore retweeted this

and commented every word demonstrably true. No comment. You have no comment to that? Oh, shut out. Really? No comment? It's private. It's all private.

It's public on Twitter. I'm sorry. Well, excellent. She's public. I'm private, all right. I'm private about that. These are people you've worked with in one of the biggest bands in the world. Oh, I've gone. There I am. Didn't bother you?

I'm not saying it didn't bother me. I'm saying I'm not making a comment about that on your TV program. Why not? Because I don't want to. Why? It's none of your business. I'm not sharing that with you. I was talking to you about Dionne Warwick.

I was in the middle of a story. You were talking to me at all. Because you're trying to get a rise out of me. I'm really not. I'm really not trying to get a rise out of it. Why are you bringing up that? Because it was a public statement from people who are part of the band that you and they made hugely famous.

I'm used to people making derogatory comments about me from time to time. I'm a big boy. I can handle it. Okay. Am I going to discuss it with you? No, I'm not. Why don't you move on? But on the record, are you anti-Semitic to your rotten core?

I'm not anti-Semitic, even very faintly, any part of my body, let alone my core. I absolutely promise you that. Do you know who would know if Roger Waters was an anti-Semite? Roger Waters would know, because I would have feelings about Jews. What are your feelings about Jews? Well, I don't have any, I don't have feelings in term negative feelings.

I very rarely even think about whether somebody is of the Jewish faith or not. And I've known obviously thousands of people who are Jewish all my life. And it never crosses my mind ever to think, oh, they're Jewish. I don't like Jews. It just doesn't ever cross my mind. I am not, even faintly in any way. Now he's going to go, well, why do you wear a Nazi uniform? Oh, my D.

Why do? Tell me. You nearly drew the F-bomb out of me, then, but you failed. Don't be silly. Go and watch the wall. Go and listen to my album, The Wall. And then you'll know, because it's perfectly obvious. It's part of a narrative.

It's a satirical part of a narrative about a rock star who becomes slightly unhinged and thinks that he's become a fascist. a fascist demagogue and he acts it out and then he realizes that it's not the path for him and he has a breakdown and tries just bloody well watch it. Actually, had you let me respond, I would have said to you, I believe you were misrepresented in that furority. Well, cheers. I appreciate it. I knew it was part of a character. I knew you'd done it for a long, long time in different ways.

So I do think that you were shot down perhaps unfairly then. I wasn't shot down, by the way. I'm still... But you were attacked. and you were cancelled in various places and so on. I was attacked, yeah. But, you know, that's coming home to Roos now because the anti-Semite accusation

that worked so well five years ago doesn't work so well now. People are beginning to realise, particularly now and general election year in this country, that the ousting of Jeremy Corbyn from the leadership of the Labour Party organised to some extent by... I think the problem you have, Roger, is this.

The problem is that when you... you say to Jewish people in Israel, seven million of them, they've got to go back to Eastern Europe or United States, or wherever you came from. Excuse me, I think. That is, that is anti-Semitic. No, it's not. Well, it is. The Israelis, the Israelis should say, go back where you came from. In the aftermath of all of this, hopefully there will be truth and reconciliation sessions between the oppressors and the oppressed, between the torturers and the torture, and the torture. The oppressors and the torturers are the state of Israel. The oppressed and the tortured are the people of Palestine.

Hopefully like there was after the demise of the apartheid state of South Africa, truth and reconciliation. That was one of the great things that Nelson Mandela brought in with the ANC after they took. Hopefully that will happen. That, me that you showed that, that is me being very, very sad and it is a hope. And I'll say it again now, I really hope you come to your senses. I really hope that you realize that what you have done since 1948 has been a huge mistake. I really hope that you get to understand that what you're doing now, the genocide you're committing in Gaza, is a huge mistake.

And I hope you will find it in your hearts to be sorry and eventually even for some of you to say you are sorry. Come back to the interview, Roger. Do you believe the same thing about Vladimir Putin then, given what he's been waging in Ukraine? What do you mean? No, of course. Well, he illegally invaded a sovereign democratic European country. He's killed many thousands of innocent Ukrainians in the process.

Well, hold on a minute. I actually spoke to the Security Council upon this matter a few years ago when it happened in 2022. And it should never have gone on. The Russians sued for peace. in April, 2022. That's all just beginning to come out now. But our Western leaders refused to allow Zelensky

to make peace with it. You said in 2022 that talk of an attack, this was a week before the invasion, you told Russia today. Yeah. The talk of an attack was bullshit and Western propaganda to demonize Russia. I thought that.

And you couldn't have been more wrong, could you? No, I couldn't have been more wrong about that. Putin did invade Ukraine. Could it be that Putin can't really be trusted in the way that you thought? Putin sort of did what he said he was going to do, actually. Why didn't you think he was going to do that? Putin had been talking about a new system for European security since the Munich conference in 2007,

where he made a long speech saying, we need to talk about the Ukraine and about the Bolshev. Is he waging genocide in? Ukraine. Of course not. Really? No, of course not. Why? He wants to take vast ways of it and take those people back to be Russian. Let's not have this conversation. We know there was an illegal. There was an illegal, the Mayden coup. Do you agree that that was illegal and there was a US paid for and inspired? It certainly, it was certainly looked corrupt. All right, well, can we not have that conversation? What he has always called the special military operation, I believe,

to have been an illegal invasion of Ukraine under Article 51 of the UN. So a war crime. Excuse me. As I said... I'm just trying to get you to clarify what you think. As I said... So a war crime? Maybe, I don't know. You need to ask the lawyer.

It's an illegal invasion. Ask the ICJ. Well, no, hang on, Roger. That loves me. If it's an illegal invasion with respect to you, it is a war crime. If it is, I believe you... You just called it an illegal invasion. If you say it is, it is...

No, you said it was. I don't want to have the conversation. I have the conversation. You literally just said it was an illegal invasion. of Ukraine. So I said, so it's a war crime. And you said, I don't know. What's an illegal invasion then? And I don't know. And if you do know, you're telling me, and I say, thank you. You don't think an illegal invasion is a war crime? Let's move on. I can't. I can't. I just can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't recognize the straight-

is it because you don't want to call Putin a war criminal. I don't. I'm not sure if Putin is a war criminal. Even though he perpetrated an illegal invasion of a, you're a brain country. Listen, as soon as I leave this meeting, and when I'm with somebody who understands international law, I'm going to ask them. But I'm not going to take it from you necessarily. Do you think an illegal invasion, as you put it, might just be illegal and therefore a crime? No, I think it probably is a war crime. You can have illegal invasions that aren't crimes? I don't think so. No, I think you're right about that.

So he's a war criminal? Okay. Is he? Peers. I'm not going to... You're worried about not getting any more Russia Today gigs, if you're saying? I tell you what I am worried about, the fact that between us, the Western powers and Putin, we're still murdering Ukrainians, when that war should have been stopped two years ago. Well, the Western powers aren't murdering Ukrainians. Russians are. Excuse me. Well, no Western forces are murdering Ukrainian. They're encouraging Ukrainian. They've encouraged Ukrainian people much against their will to lay down their lives in the quagmire that is the trench warfare in the Ukraine.

because they want to weaken Russia. So they say, anyway, this is only one they say. They're defending themselves against an illegal invasion. Something you yourself called an illegal invasion. All right. I've got to have a word with the people. No, you're not. You're not.

Honestly, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. I don't want to have this conversation. Because it is ridiculous. Piers's right about that. This is a ridiculous conversation to have in this forum. Many people have, should listen to John Mearsheimer. Don't listen to Pierre's.

I've interviewed John Mearsheimer twice. Okay. And I saw it. Yeah. And he sort of made mincemeat of you. But only, but he didn't. He didn't. He didn't he gave his view and I agree with some of it and I disagree with the rest of it.

In your case, you've stated things like, yes, it was an illegal invasion of Ukraine. But when I say so Putin's a war criminal, you won't say so. Which I think is sort of morally a bit cowardly, isn't it? You obviously is if he's a perpetrator an illegal invasion. If you were illegally invades somewhere, you're a criminal, a war criminal, aren't you? Roger. Why are you reluctant to call him a war criminal? Is this boring, here?

A bit, yeah. Why? Because you don't like being challenged on your ideas? Oh, my goodness. You'll try anything. Your father fought against the Nazis. Don't you talk about my father? Well, he fought for freedom and democracy, didn't he? Against the Nazis. You're on dangerous ground.

Why? Don't go for it, Roger. Just ignore. Why is that dangerous ground? Isn't it what Ukrainians are doing against Russia fighting to safeguard their freedom and democracy? They are a sovereign, democratic, European country as we were when we fought the Nazis?

What's the difference, morally, in principle? No, they aren't, and it is different. And that's what I'm going to say. But explain why? No. Why? No, I'm not going to have to... Seems to be Roger.

You like saying these things. You don't like them explaining why do you think... Why do you think I've come on... It doesn't suit you? Do you think... Why do you think I've come on your programme? I don't really know. You, the people of Hoban and St. Pancras,

have a chance to stand up on Thursday in the general election, okay? And to represent the rest of us, the people of England, the vast majority of whom want to stop. the genocide of the Palestinian people. Right. You can make a great point in that debate by voting for Andrew Feinstein and making certain that Keir Stama

does not become the next Prime Minister. Keir Stama is going to win by a gigantic majority. I can tell you that. So I wish your candidates well that you're supporting, but there is zero doubt now from all the polls that Keer Starrma will not be the Prime Minister. and he will be in charge of a massive majority of a thing. Let's turn to something that I think we may find agreement on.

Julian Assange, you campaigned for a long time to get him freed. How did you feel when you heard he had been? Very happy. Very, very emotional. I'm very happy the news came through in dribs and drabs and drabs. He was at Gondistan, Sid, or he's on the plane or he's this and that. So it's wonderful. You want to see him back at,

WikiLeaks doing more of what he did? I think it would be fantastic if he went back, yeah. But obviously he's got to get well. As you know, I went and visited him last September in Belmarsh. And he was not at all well. No, I know. I went with Stella and the boys. Have you spoken to him since he got released?

No, I haven't spoken to him. I've exchanged messages with Stella. which is nice. So I've been in contact, but I haven't spent it. Let me ask you one question about Assange, because broadly I think we're in agreement. The one criticism of him which I think has validity is that he didn't redact enough from the leaks that he put out,

which automatically would have put people's lies at jeopardy. Do you agree with that? Do you accept that? No, that is completely wrong, factually. He redacted everything. I said enough. He redacted everything. everything that could possibly have put anyone's life in danger.

And you can go down that rabbit hole as far as you want. You won't find a single person who came to any harm at all from the revelations in all of those emails and in the files. So it's absolute nonsense. And you still hear American politicians say. No, they do. He put allows in debt. No, he didn't. No, he didn't.

So we know that. I don't want to let my voice rise again. but we know for absolute certain sure that he didn't. So that's just a lie. Let me ask you quickly about the American election. You're 80 years old? I am, sir. You seem to be remarkably more eloquent and articulate on it,

even if we disagree about stuff, than the current president of the United States. What do you make of the state of Joe Biden? And who would be better for the world, President Trump, Mark II, or Biden to get real? Neither of them. The whole system needs overhauling so that we get candidates who might be of some use. American, you know, even more than here, government is bought and paid for.

And it's a shame to see Biden bumbling around like he does. I'm sorry for him. Has he got dementia, do you think? Of course he has. You don't have to think that. I agree. Do you think the Democrats should get rid of him before the election? I don't care what they do.

They're irrelevant. Is there not a Democrat that you think would, I mean, if Bernie Sanders, for example, was to replace it, would that not be something you might agree? I'm not really in a position to have a conversation about who or shouldn't be, who shouldn't be a candidate. You got the place in America, no? Yes, I have. Do you not have a view? Look, if I was a mechanic and you bought in a car and about 100 pieces covered in rust and with the battery gone and whatever, said, go on then, what do you think?

How do you think? I would say, I don't know, that's how I feel about American politics. What's your view of Trump? It's impossible. What do you think of Trump? Well, it's a joke, obviously. But the whole thing is a joke. He was elected president of the United States once,

and the man's a complete joke, obviously. But so what? You know, that's their system. That's how they've managed to maintain control. It doesn't matter whose presidents, so long as the ruling class days. Why haven't you ever run for office? You know, it's a funny thing.

Years ago, I was chairman of the young socialists and the YC and D in Cambridge. So I was a little bit involved. Your father was a labor activist? No, he wasn't. That's what he was? No. No, he wasn't.

My father was an ambulance driver who became converted, if you were like. I think he joined the Communist Party before he went back in the army. But that was all to do with him seeing our Russian brothers and sisters fighting against the German army all through 42, 43, whatever, all that time. And so that his politicization meant that he went back to join. But the reason that I never went into politics was because I thought rock and roll might be a belt. way of, you know, buying a sports car and getting laid.

Was it? No, that isn't the reason I didn't. I knew that I couldn't. You've had five wives. I am not a committee. You obviously have been laid a lot. Excuse me. I am not a kind of committee guy.

I couldn't do all the conversing that you had, certainly in English politics. All those meetings with all those people. Have you found... And to do all of that and do all the good work and become Jeremy Corbyn and get stabbed in the back by King. Kier Stama, no thank you, you know. Let me end on a few lighter things. You've been married five times.

Have you found true love? Yes, I have. You're in love now, properly? Do you think you've worked it out? I'm not going to talk about that. It's private, but the answer is yes. And hypothetically, what is the secret of true love? I don't know.

You're going to have to discover that for yourself, peers, when you found it. Well, you sing about me. Do I? Well, you must have sung about love, surely. There's very few love songs in my record. What do you think the secret of true love is? It's a meet. Do you know what?

I quite like the word soulmate. Yeah. Soulmates. Have you found your soulmate? Yes, I have. Yeah. It's a meeting of souls. My wife often gets asked,

how do you put up with him? Does your wife get asked the same? You'd have to ask my wife, wouldn't you? I doubt it. I think the people who have conversations with my wife can see, that we're soulmates. And so that's how we put up with each other. Is it nice to have reached that point

at the stage of your life? Absolutely, yeah, of course. You've got three children, two sons and a daughter? Yes, I have. You fired one of them, who was your keyboard player? He seemed a bit mystified when you fired him. Who? Harry.

He never talked to you, did he? No, he gave an interview. That little swine. You gave an interview saying you'd fired him and he wasn't sure why you'd fired him. Maybe you could clear this up. Why did you fire your own son? He definitely.

You ruthless bastard. Listen, I had plenty of conversations with him and we understand one another. But why did you fire? In fact, him and his two kids and his wife were staying with me for the whole of last weekend. So he's forgiven you for firing him? Yeah, absolutely. Of course. Why did you fire him?

It's none of your business. He talked about it, not me. I mean, you keep saying these things are none of my business. They're all in the public domain. Listen, he's made different decisions with people about what he will and won't talk about. That's his business. He's a man. Are you a good father, do you say?

Part of me is a good father, yeah. What's the good and bad of your... I'm not going to talk about it. Even about just general fatherhood? Yeah, I can't talk about that because I didn't have a father. And I think that affected me in my capacity to be a father. I think if I'd had a father living when I was growing up, I would have learned hopefully a lot about that,

that I didn't learn and that made things a bit difficult. But I did, as I explained to you in the story that I told you earlier, I have a mother. Yes, you do. And my mum was very interesting and flawed, but a wonderful woman who taught me the difference between right and wrong. And that is why I stand on the platform of Paris, 1914. in human rights.

Final question for you. It's a music question. We haven't really talked about music. If you could choose your all-time great supergroup, who would be in it? Oh, I'm not doing that. Come on. Give me something.

Give me a little bone. Hang on, let me think. Who would be? Who's the best singer you've ever seen? I've got to try and figure how to say this in a way you'll understand. No! Well, on that lovely point of agreement

and camaraderie between interviewer and interviewee. Roger Waters, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Good to see you. Andrew Feinste. All right? Hoban and St. Pancras. It didn't disappoint.

Unsensualt could have been made for Roger Waters. Can I go now? That's brilliant.