Piers Morgan Uncensored - “She Spoke Her TRUTH!” Martina Navratilova on Sophie Cunningham & Megan Rapinoe Trans Rows

Episode Date: August 7, 2026

The debate over transgender athletes in women's sport has returned to the spotlight after WNBA player Sophie Cunningham defended her support for restricting transgender women from competing in women's sports. Cunningham faced criticism after telling ESPN she believes transgender athletes should not compete in women's sports in order to protect opportunities for female athletes. Despite a backlash online and hostile receptions from some crowds, she has stood by her comments, saying, "I said what I said," and describing her position as "common sense." The controversy has reignited a wider debate over fairness, inclusion and safety in women's sport. Critics have accused Cunningham of discrimination, while supporters argue that protecting female sporting categories is compatible with supporting the rights and dignity of transgender people. As governing bodies around the world continue to review eligibility rules for transgender athletes, the debate over fairness, inclusion and the future of women's sport shows little sign of fading. Piers Morgan is joined by tennis and female sports legend Martina Navratilova, transgender commentator Blaire White, comedian and commentator Jeff Dye, sports commentator Andrea Richmond and pro-trans activist Helen Webberley to to debate one of the most contentious issues in modern sport. (00:00) Introduction (02:27) Martina Navratilova joins the show (04:05) Martina reacts to Sophie Cunningham being vilified (06:55) Women collectively calling for a ban (08:50) Lynx coach Cheryl Reeve wearing a “trans kids belong” t-shirt (12:02) Piers asks Martina how many men she would’ve beaten in Tennis (13:58) Caitlin Clark’s neutrality on the issue (16:30) Aryna Sabalenka’s comments on biological advantages of men (20:30) Megan Rapinoe’s comments on The View  (24:05) The panel reacts to Martina Navratilova’s interview with Piers (27:46) Should we have gender-neutral Olympics? (31:00) Blaire White on supporting Sophie Cunningham (35:14) French trans basketball player Julie Tétart’s 21 point average per game (42:52) Should Caitlin Clark speak out about this matter? (44:31) Piers challenges Andrea Richmond on women’s rights and safety Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the year of our law, 2006, some people still believe it's a cancelable offense to say that formerly male trans athletes should not compete against women. Well, the firestorm surrounding WNBA superstar Sophie Cunningham shows the argument somehow is not settled yet. Last week, Cunningham told ESPN that she supports a ban on trans athletes to protect young female athletes. Amid the resulting outcry, she has doubled down. I said what I said. I think it's kind of common sense. And I think I'll always believe in that. I think it's really important to protect children. And that's little girls who are also involved in that category.

And so I stand on what I said. Well, the cost of Sophie Cunningham's common sense has been raucas booing and heckling from crowds at her games. A rival coat smugly wore a trans-branded t-shirt. Pundits say Cunningham should shut up and dribble a position they'd rarely take about the many stars who echo their politics. Perhaps the most sane commentary from the world of sport has come from Stephen A. Smith, who wrote, You can support people's rights and believe biological men shouldn't compete in women's sports. These two things are not mutually exclusive. Common sense still matters.

That is where I stand. Well, that's where I stand, too. I suspect my next guest feels the same. Before we debate the story with my panel, delighted to be rejoined on Uncensored by the tennis legend, Martina Navratelover. Martina, great to see you again. Hello, Pierce. Nice to see you. Good to be here again. Thanks. Before we get to this very lively debate, the last time I spoke to you was in 2023,

where you announced an interview with me. You were cancer-free, following, of course, that devastating double diagnosis of stage one throat cancer and unrelated early-stage breast cancer. So before we go any further, how are you? How's your health? You know, I'm great, and it was funny because I was setting up for this. interview, I was on the other side and I noticed all these wrinkles on the left side of my neck and there's no wrinkles on the right side. I'm like, why is that? And then I realized that's where I had the radiation on the left side of my neck. So I own these wrinkles and I'm good with that because I'm cancer-free. I have no side effects whatsoever. So I'm very, very lucky. Thanks. And Chris

Severn, of course, is going through cancer. Great. Brilliant to hear. Going through the treatment. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Well, on that point, I did know. I mean, you two have become so close in later life, having been such rivals. How is she doing? Well, we started out as friends and we're finishing us best friends, and she's doing fun.

She's going through two rounds of chemo. She's got four to go, and she's a champion, so she'll come through on the other side once again, no doubt about that. Well, you're both very, very tough cookies, if we would say in the UK. Let's turn to this big debate. So I watched the Sophie Cunningham thing play out.

And honestly, Martina, I was kind of credulous that we are still having a situation where a female athlete is vilified, booed, haggled, abused, and ostracized by colleagues simply for stating a biological fact. What is your reaction to what's happened to her? I was just sad. I mean, Sophie spoke the truth. She was not singling out trans athletes. She was only talking about male bodies in women's sports, which clearly is not a fair fight.

So it is a WNBA, Women's National Basketball Association, which means women, which means females, not males who identify otherwise. So she just spoke her truth, and she did not back away from that. What I find really sad is that she's been belified for that and call all kinds of names, as I have been as well. But most more that the league is not supporting this, that the league is silent, which they should be forging forward, just like the WTA has now saying only female bodies should be playing tennis, women's tennis. And you do a one-time cheek swab, which takes literally two seconds. You just do it once in your lifetime to make sure that you are indeed a female. And that's the end of that. And people that have a problem with that, there's no ban on trans athletes.

there is no ban on trans males who identify trans that want to advise women who want to play sports they can still play in the male category the biggest divider in sports in categories we have two categories male and female and then you also have weight categories for different sports but you don't have any other categories different age groups but you don't have any other category and this is the best dividing line and when people talk inclusion every time you include a male body in a female sport, you are excluding another female from that spot. So it is not inclusive. It's actually exclusive because there will be fewer women, females, who have the opportunity to play sports, whether it's basketball or rugby or tennis or whatever. Yeah, that's 100% the issue. And,

you know, Sophie Cunningham went out of her way in her piece on ESPN by saying, I got a lot of negative feedback about me hating trans. And I'm like, I never once said that. I think that I'm here to extend love. But I also think that with love is truth, being honest. And I want to protect young girls in a locker room or young girls in sport who shouldn't have to go against biological men. I don't understand, Martina, why every single woman in the world does not agree with

that. Well, I don't understand either. I think women that speak for inclusion and that, you know, the coaches that spoke for inclusion. They don't really think things through. And I think as women, we want to be loving and taking care of everybody. But this is not that. Sports by definition is exclusive in that you have to qualify to get to a certain level. And in order for that to happen, those categories have to be very clear. And but also we keep saying, oh, the girls need to protest and boycott and all this. I'm sorry. If they compete, they lose.

And if they don't compete, they lose also. And then they may even be disqualified from their sport, which has happened to other in other sports where an athlete that complained about competing against the male, they were disqualified from their sport for a year or two. It happened to April Hutchinson in Canada, a weightlifter. It happened to Lynn Pinchies in Snooker in England. It happened to a basketball player.

So it's hard for girls to speak up. And by the way, it's adults that are pushing these rules. And it's mostly men that make the rules. rules and it's always men that are intruding into women's sex-based spaces. So this is really on men to speak up and I wish more male athletes that are active would speak up on the issue and of course female athletes because this is our sport. This is our livelihood and they should be speaking up and it should not be political. It has become a political football which is stupid because about 80% of people agree with this position in sex-based spaces only for females and

and then for only for males. And about 65% Democrats, every poll that I've seen, it's about 65% Democrats that agree with this as well. But people turn it into this left-right issue, and it's a women's rights issue. I'm sorry, it's women's rights, which means, again, females, not males who identify as women. Yeah, and, you know, the Minnesota-Links head coach, Cheryl Reeve,

in her first match-up against Sophie Cunningham, since Sophie Cunningham said what she said, she wore a trans kids belong t-shirt on the bench, clearly making some point that somehow Sophie Cunningham had said, trans kids don't belong in society or life. She never said that. She went out of her way not to say that. You know, she has the same view, I think,

that you do and I do, which is absolutely I support trans people's rights to exist and to have the same rights as anybody else. My problem comes when trans athletes erode the basic rights of women as women. And that's what we've been seeing and that's what this debate about. I want to play a clip from Stephen A. Smith about this. Okay. Being anti-anything. This is about being pro-girls, pro-females, pro-women, pro-ladies.

That's what this is about. You are Cheryl Reeve, the head coach of the Minnesota links. That is an irresponsible thing to do. You are a coach for a female basketball team. Do you not think that the females are being screwed over if they have to compete against an individual born as a male? What are you talking about? I mean, I wanted to cheer hearing that because I think people should get angry. You know, this is something that's so ridiculous. I honestly believe in 20 years' time we'll look back on this period and think the world went completely nuts. Well, we can think about that about a lot of things these days,

but certainly this is one of them because, you know, I disagree with Stephen A. Smith quite often, and I agree with him quite often. And on this issue, he is 100% correct. It is absolute insanity. It's not that women are weaker, which is different animals altogether from men in so many ways, but biologically, physically, so much that it's not even a fair fight. Look, I was about the only girl that could do pull-ups when I was 10 years old. Every single boy in my school could do pull-ups. It's almost the only girl that could do pull-ups. Even boys before puberty have that advantage. There is no doubt about it.

And it's massive in sports. It's insurmountable at any level. If you're this much of a male, this much of a female, if that male and that level that finished 100th and that will finish 10th or first in the girls level. So it's not a fair fight. And girls, what happens is girls self-exclude. They don't go and try out for the high school team,

because if there is five boys on the team, they don't have a chance. So it really punishes girls in so many ways before they even get to a high level. Yeah, and as I always say in this debate, there is a reason that we separate the sexes in the Olympics. And the reason is that if we made it gender neutral, then women, biological females, would end up winning barely any medal.

And therefore, the Olympics would disintegrate and be destroyed. And you know, at your peak, Martinez, when you were the best women's tennis player in the world, you know, what number of men would you have beaten? Like, would you have beaten anyone in the top 500 men, top thousand? What do you think? Maybe. It's about 500 might be the level at this point. I mean, the power is, it takes so much less power for them to hit the ball

just as hard as I do, which means to hit it harder at the level that I'm using, they can hit it so much harder and have that much more control and have that much harder ball. And they've moved that much faster and then jump that much higher. And by the way, they have five inches of height advantage on average. And then with your reach,

you got probably seven inches. So I have to jump seven inches higher to hit the same ball as a guy. So you just can't make up for that. And most sports are very fast twitch and explosive and strength matters. And so maybe 500, you know, Maybe I'd have a chance.

Maybe when it's set, maybe win the match. But if we do it over and over and over, you know, the guy just takes such much less effort to hit the same shot. So at the end, it's a losing effort. I don't know what the cutoff is, but that's not the point. That's not the point. There's over a thousand boys under 15 that have run faster 100 meters

than Florence Giffinjoiner who still owns the record in 100 meters. So we have no chance. We have no chance. Right. I mean, it's not even an argument. It's like in every, pretty much any sport that involves physical power or speed, it's obvious. That's why we separate the sexes. And it shouldn't be a denigration of women's sport to just say the obvious. That's why we do it.

What do you feel you've always been incredibly brave in the way you talk about issues that you care about? I've always felt that about you, and I admire that enormously about you. But I've also felt that people shouldn't be compelled to speak out on hot issues. if they don't want to. But Caitlin Clark is Sophie Cunningham's teammate. She's also the poster girl, really, for women's basketball, the best player in the world, many people think. She refuses to get drawn into this.

She won't say either way. People have accused her of being hypocritical, that she should and so on. What do you feel about that? Well, it is a basketball issue. It is every sport issue for women. I think I tweeted this couple days ago. For me, her not speaking about it is the equivalent of Michael Jordan saying Republicans buy sneakers too.

He did not want to offend anybody so that everybody would love him and everybody may buy his sneakers. And I think that Caitlin is trying to be neutral here, but you cannot be neutral when it comes to your sport. This is not some political issue. This is not some outsider issue. This is a basketball issue, just as much as it was a tennis issue, no more. and it is every female sport issue. So I wish he would speak out because that would really help everybody else to speak out about it. And, you know, as I say, courage is contagious.

And it shouldn't take courage to be able to speak out about it. But listen, the abuse that I have gotten online about this is just crazy. But of course, you know, it's just social media. Nobody says to my face because they don't have an argument. So I wish more would speak out. But Caitlin Clark's been dealing with a lot of other crap, literally. So I don't blame her for it, but I do wish that she would speak out. If she was to speak out, what would you like her to say?

Well, most of all, I would like the commissioner to speak out, you know, again, the head of the WNBA. Maybe they don't feel that, maybe they feel that she feels that males should be allowed. But again, it's the Women's League. And I just wish she would say it's about the girls and the women. And we deserve a fair fight. And if you have, let's say you would have five trans males on your team playing. They win every time. You have no chance.

So protect the girls as well. Everybody says, what about the trans girls and the trans women that want to compete? They can compete in the category. Please leave us alone. We fought so hard and so long to get our own sports and our own competitions in track and field. Women couldn't run a marathon in the Olympics until 1984 because we weren't deemed strong enough to run the marathon. We fought so hard to get to this.

And now men want in on it? I don't think so. I'm sorry. One female tennis player, current tennis number one, Arena Sabalenko, has spoken out about this just recently and also did on my show. Let's take a look. Martina had rattled over, a former number one, obviously, like yourself, says it's wrong for the Women's Tennis Association

to allow trans women to compete in its events. Do you agree with her? Well, that's a tricky question. I have nothing to do against them, but I feel like they still got huge advantage over the woman. And I think it's just not fair to a woman to basically face, like, biologically, man. And then it's, you know, it's not fair.

Like, the woman has been working the whole life to reach her limit, and then she has to face, like, a man, like which biologically much stronger. So for me, I don't agree with this kind of stuff in sport. I also want to play what she said this week about it as well. Let's take a look at that. I think it's really important to keep the fairness in our tour and it's obviously the biologically, right,

the men are way stronger than the women. So I feel like it would be not really fair for the woman to compete against biological men. So I believe it took them a little while to make the decision. And yeah, I support it. Now the WTA have recently announced that the players will take a one-time gender test, the first pro league to go that way. Do you think every pro league of any women's sport should do that?

And secondly, not many tennis players, women tennis players, have come out and publicly supported Sabalenko. because she's been, I think, really brave here. Should more come out and support her? Well, I think they will, but I think the support is there because it comes from the top. It comes from the organization that says, this is what you need to do.

And this used to be the case. In the 70s, I took the bar-body test where you had to prove that you were a female to compete. All the female athletes did that. They only did away with that, I think, in like 96, 97. I think the Sydney Olympics for the first Olympics for the test was not necessary. And here we are.

And there was it 2016 in Rio. The 800 meter finishers were all DSD athletes, Katzostomania winning the gold. And they were number two, number three. Only the fourth finisher was an actual female that won that, that competed in that race. And so Sabalanka is right. And I think the support is there. but I think the players and the athletes are just afraid to speak out because they get vilified for that. Look what's happened to Sophie Cunningham.

It'll be interesting to see what her home crowd does when she carries the ball. So it's not easy, you know, but again, those rules, I think most of the sports, all the sports should now follow in the lead. IOC started it with Christy Coventry taking charge because Thomas Bach was horrible on that issue. and the WTA, we had a male as the president of it or CEO for the last 15 years or so. Now we have a female, and I think she gets it, obviously, Valerie, and here we are. So I think the ball will get rolling in that way. Trans athletes are not banned at all.

In fact, women, females that identify as males, can compete in the women's category as long as they don't take any testosterone. If they take testosterone, then they need to compete against men. So this is not an anti-trans issue at all. It's a pro-female, pro-women and girls' issue, and it should stay that way. 100%. I want to end just with it. Yeah, I agree. Incredibly, some of America's biggest female sports stars like Megan Rapino completely disagree.

She went on the view two weeks ago, and she said this. They're using this as a wedge issue because we love some. and you know, we don't want our little girls to be unsafe in sports and it's like, unsafe from who? But okay. But now we're using this as like an overarching thing. When really what we're attacking women,

we're saying, if you look like this as a woman, you can play, if you look like this as a woman, there's a bill in Washington happening right now that's going to require all girls just like full stop to go through a sex test, and invasive, like, examining their genitals to see if they're a woman. Yeah.

worked out well historically for people to do that. We know what that means. Black girls are going to get questioned more and they're going to get questioned first, who's doing the examination. Who wants to subject themselves to that? And so they're going to see a pullback. They don't like women in sports because it helps us with confidence and power. And we see so many women in the seasweet played elite level sports. It's just great for you physically and all of it.

But it's an attack on women in society. I mean, aside for the fact she's factually wrong about the genital exams, Washington initiative only requires a doctor's sign certificate of biological sex using reproductive anatomy genetic makeup or testosterone levels a cheek swab can determine sex no general exam is required so she's wrong on fact about that but this idea that that keeping biological men out of women sports martina is an attack on women in society what's your message to megan rapina well think about that logic It is so illogical. It is just so far out. It's so crazy.

And by the way, her team lost to a team of 15-year-old boys. You know, the women top Olympic team lost to a 15-year-old boys team, like 5-2 or something. They got whipped. I just don't know where she's coming from, that she really doesn't pay attention. Again, exaggerate the issue. What if five boys get on the women's team? Now, five girls did not get on women's team and by the way that team is going to win so um i i don't get it i i don't what what upsets me is that people don't get educated better about the issues and then just to eye test right and by the way i am muscular i you know i'll be 70 in two months i still have pretty good guns and i'm done anything because that's my genetic makeup i've always been very strong

thank you mom thank you dad and i worked my ass off but no matter how hard I still cannot compete with the weakest guy on the ATP. I still can't bench press 200 pounds, you know. So I'm just disappointed with Megan that she's like, you know, feeling this way and basically pulling up the ladder after she retires. Yeah, it's, and the genital does really... That was never the case. Never, never, ever. She is full of crap, I'm afraid.

Martina, it is fantastic to see you, and particularly looking so incredibly glowing. glowing and healthy. That is wonderful to see. Thank you very much indeed for joining me again. Thank you. Thank you. I actually played Teddy yesterday for the first time in a year, so thumbs up. Really? That's brilliant. I love it. Well, great to see you, Martina. All the very best. Thank you very much. All right. Joining us now to debate, there's conservative commentator Blair White, the comedian Jeff Dyer, sports commentator Andrea Richmond, and the pro-trans activist Helen Webberley. Well, welcome to all of Andrew Richmond, I just interviewed Martina and I've rattled over, one of the greatest female sports stars in history. And she doesn't understand why any woman in the world would not agree with Sophie Cunningham when she says,

I'm not transphobic at all. I want trans people to lead good, happy lives and have the same rights as the rest of us. I just don't want women's rights eroded by having biological males compete in women's sport. So I just ask you, Andrea, why don't you want to support women's rights? I don't understand. Well, if you think Megan Rapino is basically full of crap, then get ready to see the toilet with me because I feel like the entire premises, in my opinion, is transphobic. Because if you look at participation, right, in the top level, high level. level sports, right? There are over 500,000 people who are participating in NCAA sports. How many people of those people are trans athletes? Only 10, right? So you're extrapolating 10 people out of a population of half a million people and focusing on them as if they are the problem, an overwhelming problem of the sports field when it comes to the threat of women, when that is not the case, right?

that you are concerned about biological men competing in the game of any sport, right? Whether it be basketball, whether it be soccer, anything of the sort. Why are we assuming that the process of becoming a trans person, whether it be a trans woman or a trans male, it's as simple as putting on a wig and just deciding to change your pronouns? That is simply not the case, right? People who are trans go through a process years over years, over years, of going through hormonal therapy, of going through support for their mental therapy as well, going through support of changing their pronouns, the official means. They go through a process in which they determine whether or not they feel like they are internally a male or a woman.

It is not as simple at just deciding to become an athlete. I feel like the premise of this conversation is just supposing that a man can decide. So let me ask you, okay. So do you accept, do you? Let's definitely not to take. Let me, okay, let me try and help you. Let me try and help you. Do you agree that men have a superior power, strength, lung capacity, speed?

I believe that once you are in the process of becoming either a male or a woman, you go over, you go through hormonal therapy in order to become that. And that doesn't change any of the things I've just talked about. And via that process, no, Andrea. Andrea. Andrea. Andrea. Andrea.

Andrea. Andrea. Andrea. Andrea. Andrea. Yes, go on here. Just to be clear. Yes.

Just to be clear, none of that has any impact on your basic physiology that you were born with. No, it doesn't. And here's my second question for you. Here's my second question. Here's my second question. Here's my second question. Meanwhile, it's a complete process of which you're changing your body completely. Andrea?

Yes. Andrea, stop filibustering me. Here's my second question. If as you say there is nothing to see here and no problem, presumably, if we extrapolate your theory, then we should have gender neutral Olympics. Do you agree with that? I think that entire premise is also crap, because, again, we are one supposing that there's not a transition process, but also, too, what exactly does it mean to be a biological men or biological

woman? Because there are tons of people. One in 20 people are intersex. Also, too, 10 to 30 percent of the population has PCOS. PCOS presented in women gives them higher testosterone levels. There's also 10 percent of people that thyroid issues, all right? So thyroid issue also deals with your hormonal levels. Can you answer my question? Or answer women? Or less women? Answer my question. without trying to get to the basis of what is a biological man and what is a biological woman in the first place because science cannot determine that as well, fears. Let me help you.

I am a biological man, you are a biological woman. Let me bring in Jeff Dyke. Welcome to Uncensored Jeff. Great to see you. I just find it absolutely staggering. The reason that Andrea couldn't answer the Olympics question is because right there, that is why we separate the sexes. Well, fine. I'm just saying, obviously, we separate the sexes, as I said to Martina earlier, because if we didn't, women wouldn't win any medals. That's why we separate the sexes. Doesn't denigrate women athletes. They're fantastic. They're just not as strong or powerful or as fast as biological men. Therefore, that is why biological men shouldn't compete in women's sport, even if they identify as trans women. I mean, to me, it's very straightforward.

I agree with you 100% and I'm puzzled we're still having these conversations on the subject. I think what's happening is in modern times, I think people and definitely women more than men are very nice and compassionate and sympathetic people. And so they see information as mean, you know, when you say, oh, a man is just a little stronger and a little bigger and a little faster, it strikes their brains as like, that's so mean. Women can do this, women can do anything they want. And I get that it sounds mean. It isn't mean.

It's information. If someone was to say a guy can't have a baby, you wouldn't go, hey, do you don't say that? Men can do anything a girl can do. We could have babies. No, we can't. We're just different. It's not mean to say that there's never been a female Navy seal.

It's not like we're like not letting women in the Navy SEAL. It's just that men are able to do those kind of training and that kind of thing. at a higher level of physicality. It has nothing to do with mean or nice or inclusion. Also, one in 20 intersects is absurd. I said one in 2000, by the way. Right.

Well, let- Yeah, still absurd. That is too. It is actually absurd. It is. It is ridiculous. And I guess that science is absurd too. Well, you don't even believe in science.

Let me bring it. You don't know the difference between a man and a woman. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Blair White, you are. You are a conservative trans woman, but you support Sophie Cunningham. I mean, Sophie Cunningham to me said nothing controversial at all. She just stated a basic fact whilst also expressing support for the trans community.

And then one of these coaches goes out and says, you know, we must include trans people, whatever. Well, yeah, of course. No one's saying they can't play sport, right? What they're saying is you can't have biological men competing against biological females. It's obviously unfair. It would be like allowing drug cheats to compete, right? None of us agree with that. We all think it gives them a superior physical advantage if you cheat by doping.

It's the same argument. Absolutely. And peers, I've been on the show so many times arguing this topic, and it actually is blowing my mind that you can still find people on this 95-5 issue that are willing to so vehemently argue for the 5%. right? I think that most Americans have moved past this, like intellectually, this debate. And I will say that I do support Sophie Cunningham. I think she's iconic. Her pointing meme

is great. I love it. And whenever a mainstream celebrity does speak out against wokeism or against the establishment, the question then becomes if they're going to stand on it. So it's been really good to see her, you know, despite the people protesting her and people being upset, to actually stand on what she said. And I think that that's admirable. You know, the WNBA is the highest level of women's sporting league in the country. It's the top. And so if those women in those positions can't speak out on this, then who can, especially when there's women

or girls in high school and women in college that are experiencing this. So I support her and to the woman in the pigtails, shout out to you having your own opinion, but I'm gonna need you to sit down because I am trans. And so all this you're speaking about the hormonal changes that happen,

I know those quite well. And I will tell you right now, It's more than just taking hormones or lowering estrogen when it comes to comparing a trans woman athlete with a biological woman athlete. Things like wrist size, height, lung capacity, heart size, so many things that are going to obviously come into play and benefit the biological male in this situation are going to be there. And those are not reversible through hormones no matter what. So it's a lot bigger than just, oh, they're on estrogen now. So it's a level playing field. It's really not.

And where are these athletes? right now. That's my question. Well, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. The United Nations, actually, for I think 2024, calculated that nearly a thousand medals at all levels of sport globally have been deprived from female athletes by trans women athletes.

Nearly a thousand. When you say it's a tiny problem, it doesn't affect it. That's a thousand actual women or girls who've lost out on medals by competing. Out of how many is irrelevant? It's irrelevant. I don't care of. It's one. It doesn't matter.

I don't care of it's one, Jeff. It doesn't matter. Because we're making mouths of whosovo. When we talk about protecting women, right, when we talk about protecting women, don't talk about them. Let Jeff speak. Yeah, Andrea, Andrea. Andrea.

We don't talk about the fact. that there are over 20% of women that unfortunately... Andrew, your name's not Jeff. Andrea, your name's not Jeff. Go on to Jeff, but we can talk about something that does not exist. Your name's not Jeff, Andrea. What I'm saying... Andrea, your name's not Jeff. Jeff.

Don't you find it fascinating that it's always a biological man that's transitioned into a woman that wins these things? It has... We never hear an issue about the other transitioning the other way because it's almost like there's an advantage to be in a biological. man. Exactly. Let me bring in Helen. Let me bring in Helen. I want to bring in Helen Mubbilly, hang on just because she hasn't spoken yet. Now Helen, we've had you on before,

and I know your position on this. I just want to show you some footage. This is of a French transgender basketball player, Julie Tatar, who averages 21 points per game. We've just got some you lay footage here, which I want to show the panel. Now, I don't know about you, Helen, but for all intents and purposes, that looks like a massive guy destroying much smaller women at basketball. And that is the problem right there is that you have a trans woman who's a biological male who has a massively superior advantage physically over the other players. Now, if Julie Tatar played against men, then it would be a very different story. But Julie Tatar plays against women

so that Julie Tatar can dominate against women. Now, I just put it to you, it's obvious. We can see with our own eyes what the problem is. Why can't you? Why don't you want to, as Martinez says, protect women? I don't get it. I think what the problem is, is what is the advantage? Is the advantage because it's a biological male?

Is that advantage because they are very, very tall? Is that advantage because they're very, very mussely? I mean, Martina, in her interview, I was listening to it just now. She said that when she was at school, she was the only girl that could do pull-ups. And she said that she's still very, very strong now. Thank you to her mum and thank you to her dad. So she has an advantage.

And yet it was fine with her advantage. And she said, well, hang on, hang on, Helen. Helen, Helen, don't be selective. She also said, hang on, hang on, Helen. Hang on, Helen. Hang on. Yes, you haven't let me ask. I'm finishing the point that you're making,

because you excluded something very important. She also said that at her absolute peak, she wouldn't have beaten any of the top 500 men. And she's one of the greatest tennis players in female tennis history. Why are you ignoring that very salient point? Yeah, and the advantage is not because of a, it's a biological man.

because of the puberty that that person went through. So we will have transgender girls who haven't gone through puberty yet. We will have transgender adults who didn't go through a male puberty. We will have transgender female adults who don't have testosterone as their hormone. We will have transgender female adults who are not taller than average like Sophie Cunningham is. And we will have transgender female adults who've never had a scrap of testosterone in their life. So we need to be really careful what we are discriminating against. What is the category?

Is it height? Is it shoe size? Is it muscle? Is it lung capacity? Because nobody? Biology. It's all of the above. Well, let me ask you, Helen.

Well, Helen, let me, Helen. Don't all speak at once. Andrea, do not interrupt, Andrea. But Michael Belt has one. I'm talking to Helen. Andrea, Andrea, Andrea, Andrea, you need some panel. You need some panel manners, if you don't mind, okay? You love yourself, your T-shirt says.

Love your other panelists. Give them time to speak. So, Helen, my question would be this. We've just had the men's World Cup football, okay? Soccer in America. How many women do you think would get into any of those World Cup teams? Men's? Are you asking me?

So I don't know, I'm not sure what the question is. How many women are getting into a male team? How many professional women's football players, soccer players, would get into any of the men's 48 World Cup teams? But the advantage is not their sex or their gender. It's the puberty they've gone to. It's the size of their body. It's how strong they are.

How many women would get into any of those teams? Give me a number. I can't give you a number. How can I possibly give you that number? Okay, I shall say. You know the number. You know the number is a number. The number is a big, Helen, Helen, the number is a big fat zero.

You know why? Because the women are as strong, are as powerful, odd as fast. Jeff, this is basic biology, Jeff. You want to talk about somebody? Andrea, your name's not Jeff. Andrea, your name's not Jeff. You said I know, because I talked before, Jess. I started talking before Jeff.

Let me finish my point. You talked about Julie Tetard, right? In the last example, right? Julie Tatart is in the second league for France, right? Averaging 20 and 9. I'm not sure if you know right now. I am in Seattle, right? Seattle Storm fan.

Guess what? There's somebody who isn't the Premier League in the Australia League, not the second league, but the Premier League in McKenzie Holmes. McKenzie Holmes is averaging 20 and 9. What is she averaging right now in the WNBA? Three points and three rebound. So how is Julie Tatar, who's not even averaging 20 and 9 in the most premier league in France supposed to dominate against somebody like Asia Wilson when McKenzie Holmes can't even do that right now currently in the league? Girl.

Girl. As one of the Ndney Kravitz favorites in Australia, you are making mountains out of molehills and supposing something that does not exist and is not reality. Girl, can I just say, I think it's almost confused about reality. If anyone's making a mountain out of a molehill, if anyone is making a mountain out of a molehill, it's people like you two, those two women on the panel, who are turning transports into a civil rights issue, into some sort of like Martin Luther King crusade.

And I just have to ask, I just have to ask, because it's just so weird to me, and I'm a trans person saying this, why is this you guys fight? Like, there are so many trans people, all you have to do is go online. There are so many trans people, just like myself,

who don't want this because all it does is serve optics that are horrible for the trans community. It takes away opportunities from biological women and it makes trans women look crazy. And it's a problem that you guys are sticking your feet into this because I can tell you right now, maybe you've never met a trans person who actually wants you to please stop. But I will say, please stop. No one with any sense in my community wants this, not one person. You guys want it more than us. The people protesting Sophie Cunningham

in the audience at the WMBA. None of them were even trans. They were a bunch of just like white women. So it's like, why is this your fighting? Also, can I point out that Sophie Cunningham was just asked a question. Sophie Cunningham was just asked a question. I want to point that out. She didn't wear a little shirt.

She didn't make it a political issue. She was simply asked a question by race-baiting, gender-baiting media people. And she answered her question, honestly. And now somehow they're making a giant issue of this because people like these gals here or Al Sharpen or anyone else who want to profit and exploit some sort of civil issue and make money

and be on shows and do things like this, they're going to make this a huge thing. Sophie Cunningham was just answering a question. She didn't make this a whole political thing. Everyone else did. Jeff, let me ask you. Hang on, Andrew. Priya, I'm talking to Jeff.

I asked Martina Raft Glover whether Caitlin Clark should speak out, given she is the sort of poster girl for the women's basketball game. And as a superstar player and fantastic, whether she should speak out. And she said she should. Do you think she should? I don't ever try to push anyone to do a thing

that might affect their livelihood or their reputation or whatever. But I think if we're going to talk about leaders and what people do, I think that she should make a decision. I don't think it's heroic to say Republicans buy shoes too. I don't think it's heroic to be quiet because you've got a deal with Nike. I think that I would love to hear Caitlin Clark's opinion on what this is. And if she was a true leader, she would pick a side of this very tumultuous issue.

Yeah, I mean, the thing is, Andrew, let me end with you, given you've been trying to speak the entire time. But, you know, Megan Rapino, who I think is one of the, the great hypocrites of world sport, actually. Megan Rapino came out with all this crap about how this was an attack on women in society, right? Wanting women's, the integrity of women's sport to be protected and the safety of women's sports. So when you have female boxers in the Olympics and you have an Italian woman who quits after 45 seconds

because the Algerian boxer that she's fighting is a. biological male, or has tested positive for biological male chromosomes, which is why she was banned from the world championships, and is now at the moment still refusing to take a simple sex test, and we know why, that she said she'd never been hit that hard in her life. Women are going to die at your altar here of refusing to protect women's rights to equality and to safety. Can you live with that? It's funny that you talk about someone dying, because let me tell you a story. When I was in band, I saw somebody who had the word hate, carved literally into their skin all across their

forearm. A couple of years later, never asked them about that question, but a couple of years later, they came out as a trans man. I didn't understand what caused them to carve hate into their skin, but after finding out that they transitioned, it turns out that their discomfort and being in a body in which they were not comfortable. No. cause a big part of this. No, I'm sorry. I have to cut in there. I have to cut in here.

That is something else. Self-harm and suicide are very different. You can't just conflate that. This is the pro-trans person conflating self-harm. Nobody is stopping them competing in sports. 20% social problems, right? So participation in sports can literally save lives because trans people can become right to ins people.

Nobody's stopping trans people competing in sports. No, because no, yes, you guys are. Andrea, Andrea, nobody is stopping. Nobody is stopping trans people competing as far. caring about the thoughts of people like the person in band who carved hate into their skin. And then by going to return to people was able to find love in themselves like I have on this shirt, you are attacking people and also carving people to be suicidal. So my question to you is, you say me, try to try to.

make sure that people are all equal and can have participation in community is killing people. I would say and argue that you, by you excluding them, you increase the race and actually there is evidence. They can't. This is the problem. That matches their biological sex. They can play in their sport. There's a 10% to say. All anybody's asking for.

In suicidal thoughts by trans people. So live with that. They can play. Yeah. You know what? It's fancy words, Andrea, but the reality is nobody is saying trans people can't play school. They're just saying you play sport against your biological sex because that is where the advantage or disadvantage lies. Exactly. I'm going to leave you there. Thank you all very much for the debate. I appreciate it. Thank you.