Piers Morgan Uncensored - The Live Streaming Of a Public Execution | With Fort Hood Massacre Survivor Alonzo Lunsford

Episode Date: October 13, 2026

Seventeen years after the Fort Hood massacre, the planned livestream of Nidal Hasan’s execution by firing squad is raising difficult questions about justice, vengeance and the dangers of turning punishment into spectacle. Hasan, a former US Army psychiatrist, killed 13 people and wounded 32 in the 2009 attack on fellow soldiers at Fort Hood, Texas. Now, War Secretary Pete Hegseth says the execution will be public, marking the first public execution in the United States in 90 years. Announcing the decision to Jack Posobiec, Hegseth described the firing squad as a demonstration of the consequences of attacking American service members. But the decision has opened up a wider debate. Could a public execution intended to demonstrate the severity of justice instead give Hasan the notoriety he craves - transforming his death into a spectacle and, in his own eyes, a martyrdom? After years of condemning the public executions staged and filmed by Islamist terror groups, America now faces an uncomfortable question: what does it achieve by making an execution a global event? This is the case for justice - and the risks of turning it into a show. Joining the show to debate is survivor of the Fort Hood shooting, Alonzo Lunsford, host of The Crucible, Andrew Wilson, author of ‘Separation of Church & Hate’, John Fugelsang and host of Democracy-Ish, Wajahat Ali.  Piers Morgan also speaks with host of Drop Dead Serious, Ashleigh Banfield, and wrongly convicted member of the ‘West Memphis Three’, Damien Echols. (00:00:00) Introduction (00:03:25) Alonso Lunsford, survivor of the Fort Hood shooting (00:07:19) Wajahat Ali condemns plan for a “public spectacle”  (00:11:02) Andrew Wilson makes the case for a live streamed execution  (00:14:25) John Fugelsang calls Pete Hegseth 'unchristian' (00:21:29) Alonso Lunsford on “forgiving” Nidal Hasan (00:27:58) Wajahat Ali on the botched Christa Pike execution  (00:31:12) Andrew Wilson argues for firing squads (00:37:27) Pope Leo’s comments (00:40:20) Alonso Lunsford plans to attend the execution (00:43:10) Ilhan Omar’s home raided (00:49:58) Ashleigh Banfield discusses death penalty (00:57:12) Damien Echols, one of the ‘West Memphis Three’ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You do think he should be executed. Oh, absolutely. Putting him to death by fire squad, death befitting. It makes America resemble North Korea, Iran, the Taliban. But even those authoritarian regimes have the decency not to stream it. Yeah, I want to put up against the wall and I'm shot dead. And yes, I would love to witness that bastard dying for what he did. Same folks who say their pro-life are pro-death.

What is this government trying to accomplish by turning the government killing of a prisoner into public entertainment. Is this justice? Is it revenge? Is it deterrence? Is it a TikTok video about how awesome Pete Heggseth is, bro? Do you think that this guy's going to live through the firing squad? Because he's not. The guy wanted to die, you know, that's what people who do things like that want to do. They want to become a martyr. So in a way, it's like you're giving him what he wants. You're going to watch it? It's not the thing I'm going to watch. I'm going to be there. 17 years ago, a US army psychiatrist walked into a soldier redness centre at Fort Hood and opened fire, killing 13 people and wounding 32.

Nadal Hassan brutally attacked the very people who were supposed to help, men and women who were preparing to put their lives on the line in defence of their country. Few people are less deserving of our sympathy. Few have a weaker case for our mercy, but the decision to live stream his death by firing squad, making it the first public execution in 90 years, creates an ugly show and a global debate when none would have existed. War Secretary Pete Higgs said

announced his decision to Jack Posobic last week. Execution by firing squad. Army Major betrays his country, radical Islamist kills a bunch of Americans at Fort Hood. Of course we're going to do it at Fort Hood. We're going to do it on a Thursday. We're going to do it at 1 o'clock, which is when he did it,

and it's going to be soldiers with rifles executing the firing squad. It hadn't been since World War II, since we've done that. Well, I kind of like the mentality we had in World War II, which was when. And we'll make sure that people are able to watch it, that it's public, because people need to understand that this is a, there's serious consequences for these types of things. The forhood massacre happened at the height of the war on terror. It was framed as an existential battle against the sort of medieval people who carry out public executions. In the years which

followed, the world recoiled at the barbarism of beheadings filmed for social media by ISIS. Nidal Hassan murdered his fellow soldiers because, he was a self-declared jihadist. He'd been radicalized by an al-Qaeda cleric, and there relies the stupidity at the heart of his spectacle. Instead of the humble and lonely death that many will feel he deserves, Assam will now die as a martyr. In his own twisted mind, he'll be a hero inflated by infamy.

Pete Heggsha says he doesn't know and doesn't care if Hassan has made me last requests. He might just have granted them anyway. Well, to debate this, I'm joined by Alonzo Lunsford, survivor of the forehood shooting, who was shot seven times. Andrew Wilson, the host of the Crucible, John Fuglesang, author of Separation of Church and Hate, and Majahad Ali, the host of Democracy Ish. Well, welcome to all of you. Alonzo Lunsford,

let me start with you because no one is better placed to give a opinion about whether we should be watching this execution as Secretary of War, Pete Hesith, wants us to do, than you, because you very nearly were killed by this man. What is your reaction to the prospect of the world? watching as Nadal Hassan, the man who shot you seven times, is executed. Well, I have, well, thank you for having it back on your show up here. But my thought process on this is that I think that people don't want to see it should see it. But I have stipulations on it. I don't think that it should be open for adolescents or kids to see.

one, two, in my personal opinion, this isn't a type of thing where you pull up and you have a tailgate and you're going to watch this man finally paying the price for a heinous deed that he did 5 November 09 against offensive people

because as a country and as a culture, we're better than that. We don't need to go back to the day where we're having public executions and making a spectacle out of it because we do have some decency about us as the people. And it's disrespectful to the ones who paid the Supreme Sacrifice that day and some that had made the sacrifice afterwards.

And then the ones that survive and the families of the deceased just because the man is being executed doesn't mean it's going to go away. So in a nutshell, are you saying that you would, on balance, prefer it not to be live streamed? I mean, the problem with trying to control who would see it is that it only needs one person

to record it and they'll put it out. So it's going to get seen if anyone's allowed to see it outside the very close controlled number of people that will personally witness it. Right. And I agree with that. Because again, if it's leaked out, it's leaked out. However, it leads to the initiative from the beginning to put some type of fail-safe systems on it because, again, young people, they can't physically or mentally process what they're going to see. They're going to find some kind of glory or entertainment out of that. That's not what it's all about. It's about this man committing a crime. He was given the senses of committing that crime, and so then it's finally going to happen. But it's not something that is like a pay-per-view event or anything of their nature.

Because the day of, one of the people joking the plane when the bullets was flying. What about a joke on the plane when you're walking around and you smell of flesh, gum powder, and blood the same time? It doesn't leave you. It wasn't like that it when each and every one of us who got hit, if you survived or not, to their initial pain. It wasn't like that when all of our families have been affected by this thing that this man was doing, and

it wasn't that we did not know this man was a problem from the beginning. Well, that's because two different entities of the government, they decided not to talk for each other. Henceful, you had 14 killed 32 wounded. And then after the 32 wounded, all the 32 are no longer here with us.

So, I mean, the price is high. It's not for some freaking entertainment. If somebody get a job to see somebody we have put it there. But just to be clear, you do think he should be executed? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, okay. Let me bring in the other guests.

With Jah, welcome back to uncensoreded. You know, like I said, few people are better probably positioned to talk about this than Alonzo, who was shot seven times and nearly murdered by this man. He thinks it's right to execute him, but wrong to have it live stream to the world, particularly because once you do that, Of course, young people, whether you try and stop them singing or not, they're going to see it. What is your view about this? You can have a debate about capital punishment and whether or not it's appropriate as a deterrence, especially in modern society.

But I agree with Alonzo. I think most sane, decent people do is that the public spectacle of a public execution will only help our enemies who will say, look, you're killing a Muslim, Nadal Hassan Malik, as you are engaging in an illegal war in Iran, as you're supporting Israel's genocide. And furthermore, it makes America resemble North Korea, Iran, the Taliban. These are the authoritarian regimes that still engage in public hanging, in public executions. And why do they do that, peers? Because public executions by an authoritarian regime is meant to control and intimidate a population.

So if you want to become more totalitarian, if you want to resemble Kim Jong-un, if you want to resemble Iran, you do that. But even those authoritarian regimes have the decency not to be able to be able to Taliban. to stream it, not to engage in profit, not to make it into a public spectacle where people profit. This is a moral debasement. It is disgusting. It is gross. It will only hurt Americans. It will only incite and inflame anti-Americanism. And it will take us closer and closer to authoritarianism. And the fact that Pete Hex had said, oh, we're going to go back to World War II. That's when we won. Well, we defeated the Nazis in World War II, right? Now you have this administration promoting neo-Nazi conspiracies of white replacement, of the replacement theory, of remigration, right?

And notice how they chose Nidal-Hasan Malik, a terrible person, a criminal. Patrick Crucius engaged in one of the worst shootings in El Paso, Texas. Dylan Roof engaged in one of the worst shootings. So they're deliberately using Nid al-Hasan Malik, a Palestinian Muslim, during a failed war in Iran, during the genocide in Iran, and you tell me, Pierce, will this make us safer? Will this make us more beloved by Muslims around the world? Will this elevate us as we are engaging in trade wars and in legal wars? This is a spectacle of cruelty and barbarity by insecure men

who want to take away attention from the Epstein Files, from their corruption, from their failed policies. I hope Pete Hexeth, I don't know, man, high testosterone, go get therapy, get penis extension. I don't know what's wrong with you, bro, but you are failing as a Secretary of War and your insecurity are going to make us less safe. Andrew Wilson, welcome back to you to Unsensor. The issue I'm in the UK at the moment

where we don't have the death penalty. So there are two clear issues here. One is whether the death penalty should happen at all. And obviously America's had this separate issue with the Krista Pike situation, which has been appalling and has raised into question

whether you can even put people to death properly. It seems to be way more difficult than I imagine. it is. Certainly way more difficult, and a lot of these killers found it to kill people themselves, which is just a strange irony. But notwithstanding the fact that our countries have a different view about the death penalty, my thing with this is you lose all the high moral ground you might want to retain about people like ISIS, like Al-Qaeda, like the others, who were jubilantly cutting people's heads off and live-streaming it to the world. You know, I remember the fury and the outrage

from many of the same people who are now jubilantly racing to support this guy being killed in a live stream. And to me, they've forgotten how they felt at the time about the deaths of their own and they've forgotten the fact that it's important when you're dealing with barbaric medieval terrorists, nihilistic villains, criminals,

not to stoop to their level, which is why I don't think that they should live stream this. What's your view? Yeah, the moral argument is actually bizarre to me. So like the gentleman over here speaking out of both sides of his mouth, he says, well, wait a second. You know, this is a way to control and terrorize the population.

It's like I want these people who are in the population who would do shootings like this to be controlled and terrorized. What are you talking about? I'm just fine with that. I want them demoralized. I want them to know that the United States government's going to put them against the wall and shoot them. that I want them to know that. I don't think that you have the moral high ground here

because you say that a bunch of Taliban lunatic, terrorists, kill innocent people for reasons that we don't consider just, and yet somehow it's unjust for us to kill guilty people who deserve it. I think that the American people can see through that facade, this idea that's somehow lower. That's the argument for killing him, which is slightly different to the bigger argument raging

about whether it should be live, to the world. What do you feel about the second part of the debate? Yeah. Well, I mean, do you think that people are stupid? Like, if we just pretend that this guy's not getting shot, that he's not getting shot, we know he's getting shot.

And yes, tons of people want to tune in for this because they want to see justice served. What's wrong with that? We never saw how bin Laden was shot, for example, because the decision was taken was it would act as a fuel to martyrdom and it would lead to... Yeah, what did that lead to? it led to a bunch of conspiracy theories.

It led to the idea that shield team six didn't actually kill him. It led to the idea that the U.S. government was covering up that bin Laden was killed in the first place. It led to all sorts of other outcomes that you did not expect. There was actually no good reason not to hang bin Laden by his neck for everybody to see, except he was already dead, right? But that's what we did. That's what we did.

We killed him. And there's nothing actually wrong that I can see or unjust about taking a man who murdered a pregnant woman. The last words from her were, oh, my God, my baby, while she's holding her stomach, putting him up against the wall and shooting him dead. What's wrong with that actually? Where's the actual world out by the year?

Why do we have to see it? You don't have to see it. Guess what's real fun. You can change the channel if you don't want to watch it. But you know the reality. Andrew, hang on. Don't be naive. You know the reality of social media,

the world we live in. Within half an hour, anybody who has a social media account, whether they want to or not, we'll see that clip. As with Charlie Kirk, as with the murder of Charlie Kurt, we all saw it whether we wanted to or not. Yeah, so do we have freedom in press in this country? Aren't you guys always talking about how the press needs to have access

to basically everything, otherwise you're hiding things from them? What's wrong with the press recording this and putting it out to the world? Would you want to see it? Would you want your kids to see it? Yeah, yeah, I want to put up against the wall. I'm shot dead. And yes, I would love to witness that bastard dying for what he did. Yes.

Would you want your kids to see it? I probably wouldn't show it to my children, maybe adult children, you know, like 17, 18, 19, 20. I don't think it's going to hurt them any to see that a person who is a horrific murderer who butchered a pregnant woman gets put up against the wall and shot dead. Okay, John Fulgson, welcome back to you. Great to have everybody back on the show. What's your reaction to Andrew's view? Well, I want to say hello to everyone.

Thank you for having me here. God bless you, Mr. Lungford. Donald Trump began this year giving a state of the union address where he criticized Iran for having their barbaric public executions, and he actually bragged, this is ancient history, I know, January. He bragged that he helped prevent more Iranian public executions, and now he wants America to stage public executions. The same people who decry big government,

think the government should be allowed to kill you and murder prisoners. The same folks who say their pro-life are pro-death, the same folks who say all life is sacred, they get to decide who God thinks is sacred and who isn't. Now, Major Hassan is a deranged horrific mass killer. No one is saying that he is innocent in any way. He deserves to be incarcerated for as long as his victims remain dead. But what is this government trying to accomplish

by turning the government killing of a prisoner into public entertainment. Is this justice? Is it revenge? Is it deterrence? Is it a TikTok video about how awesome Pete Heggseth is, bro? Or is it a distraction

from the carnality and murderous destruction of their failed illegal Iran war? The school children killed because of Pete Hegson's incompetence. Again, as Waj said, here's the countries that have public executions, right? Iran, the Taliban-led Afghanistan.

we hear North Korea and now the United States. That's it. Those four, Saudi Arabia, stopped doing this in 2019. So we're more barbaric than Prince Bonesaw. I don't enjoy pleading for the life of such a destructive, murderous man. But the Jesus of the Bible kind of commands me to because these guys boast about their Christianity peers. You've seen Pete Higg said these guys can't go through a press conference

without talking about Jesus, Jesus. They demand Jesus in the classroom and in the military. But when Jesus has actually something to say, in those red letters in the Bible about vengeance and punishment and the treatment of human beings, Jesus overturns eye for an eye in sermon on the Mount.

He stops in execution. He says only sinless people are allowed to execute. Is that Pete Hexeth? Is that you, Andrew? Is that Trump? Only sinless can execute? If you want to brag your Christian,

then you have to follow Jesus. If you're going to go killing prisoners for entertainment when Jesus says in Matthew 25 that how you treat the prisoner is how you treat him, then the rest of us get to call out your fake Christianity.

Andrew, you better respond to him. That's a great Christian. BDECF is a fake. Meanwhile, Fugle saying rejects the Holy Trinity did so in a debate with me. And he denies that Jesus Christ is God. Otherwise, he would have to

change the subject. You're making it about me now. Did I interrupt you once? Did I interrupt you once? So what's really funny here is like he rejected the Trinity and here's how I know he rejected the Trinity. The very first thing

that God did, who is Jesus Christ, was issue the death penalty to all men. Very first thing he did as a penalty for eating the fruit in the garden, Mr. Fugel saying, was give us all the death penalty. We didn't die before that, Mr. Fugel saying. You know theology, so you know that this is true. But he rejects the Trinity and just pretends that that never happened. He pretends that Jesus Christ wasn't the one who did the flood.

He pretends Jesus Christ wasn't the one who laid down these edicts for death all throughout the Old Testament, even though he did. So this is amazing to me that Mr. Fugel saying now is being very preachy about what God and Christianity should do when he himself rejects the Trinity and did so live with me. So the other thing to point out here is who cares if it's the case that North Korea also publicly executes people? Therefore it's bad. I'm guessing North Korea also uses toilet paper. That doesn't mean Americans using toilet paper is bad. That's just a guilt by association fallacy. I don't know what's wrong with you, but you need to make a compelling argument for why it is. We're not allowed to put a mass murderer up against the wall and shoot his ass. Why not? If I may, thank you, Andrew.

It's nice to see you as well. So God gave the first murderer, Kane, a pardon, put a mark on him so no one could harm him. Jesus brought a new covenant. This means the laws of Leviticus don't apply to Christians. A lot of right-wing Christian nationalists want to say they do, but Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians. And Leviticus 2010 commands us to stone adulterers to death. I don't hear a lot of Christian nationalists saying that we should bring rocks to Mar-a-Lago and attack the president for his adulterate. Yeah, except that's all reckons out. Jesus brings a new covenant. He begins his first speech, the sermon on the mount, saying, you've heard it said, eye for an eye. I say to you turn the other cheek. Vengeance is incompatible with the teachings of Christ. Christians get to eat bacon.

They don't live by Leviticus anymore. They pick it, but again, right-wing Christianity picks and chooses the parts of the Jesus' teachings and commandments that they wish to follow based on their convenience. And when Jesus is too woke and says only the sinless may carry out executions, they will pivot back to Old Testament narratives and personal insults. Take it, Andrew. Great. It's like you just pretend to remove acts from the Bible. So we had a reconciliation in acts for things like they. We had faith.

This is Acts of the Apostles, directly related to Christ. So we know exactly what the reconciliation is and why we can eat bacon and why it is that we can wear different patchwork clothes. This was all debated and taken. Who is without sin? It didn't interrupt you. Didn't interrupt you. Calm down.

I'd let you finish. So the thing is really funny here, Mr. Fugel saying, is like, we know what the reconciliation was in Acts. The different covenants are continuous. It's not that they're completely displaced or that the new replaced the old, That's not how it works. It's a continuous theological continuity. Both covenants are in place simultaneously.

Yes, that's your own Catholic dogma. You don't follow Leviticus. Catholic, that's your own Catholic dogma, Mr. Fugel saying. You don't know what you're talking about. On top of that, on top of that, you still, let me, let me bring here. The others. For why it is that it's unjust to put a man up against the wall who's a mass murderer.

Okay, much as I'd like it. Much as I'd like this to morph into a theological debate for the next three hours, I'm going to bring in the others for different parts of the debate. Alonzo, it's been 17 years since this massacre happened. You and I spoke in 2013 when I was at CNN and the jury had recommended the death penalty for Nidal-Hassan.

You told me then, which was four years after the event, how difficult it was to even have your children come up behind you without announcing themselves. and you said you wanted the punishment to be carried out quickly. Could you have imagined in 2013 that we would be in this position today 13 years later? No. No, I never would have thought then that it would have taken as long as it has been now, today. What are your feelings towards Nidal-Hassam?

Are you a religious man? Very. So what are your feelings towards him given your faith? Okay. I've forgiven him because of my faith I cannot heal myself unless I forgive him. Is the days where I wake up that I want to put my hands around his neck and I don't want to kill him, I just want to chucking away his life is leaving his body where he feels of power my hands around his neck? Are the days where I wish that I can kill him by a thousand cuts? 5,000 cuts or other horrific ways.

Yes, there are. Like, I was listening to the gentleman debate. Good, good debate. All-Man, it's awesome. But that doesn't fit the issue at hand. Because both gentlemen were correct. The thing of it is, no, can I control who watches it? Like an adult, if you don't agree with it, then don't turn the channel.

don't look at it. If anybody else disagree with it, for whatever given reason, you don't have to look at it. But for children, can we stop them from getting information, no. But we can try our best to fix it to where they don't access information. Because granted, the last time we had an execution line, this was in World War II. But again, we're not back in the era where we are, looking at this as an entertainment piece because of what this man did that day.

With Jahay... Yeah, I hear, yeah. I just... We Jaha, you know, it's so interesting to hear Alonzo talking there about forgiveness, but also days when he feels rage and, you know, murderous sometimes. And, of course, I'm sure we would all feel that range of emotions if we were in his shoes and had been shot seven times

and seen people we knew murdered and so on. It gives them a unique perspective. But can you, on the one hand, practice forgiveness based on your faith and on the other, want to take this guy's life or particularly live stream it to the world? I mean, these are the perhaps contradictory parts of all this. Well, yeah, look, no one's more...

Oh, are you talking to me or Alonzo? Well, actually, Alonzo, if you want to just... respond to that, then I'll go to a good. Yeah, please, go ahead. I don't know what you have to understand. Putting him to death by fire squad that's befitting

because of what he did that day lived by the sword, die by the sword. And just telling people you do this thing that is against our laws and regulation, everything that we stand for, and it's the punishment for doing

this thing. Okay, so therefore the crime was committed. He had due process, so now he has to pay the price for this thing. As far as him being a martyr, I'm going to sit here and say that he failed on that mission too, because a monitor is doing something noble, and what he did that day was not noble. And even if you read the Quran,

a lot of what is stated that these people are doing is not supported by the Quran. The same thing with Christianity. It's like we had Jim Jones, that people drank their Kool-Aid, and they went and they met their death. that was not supported by the Bible. So what you have is people that are in a position of power

that look at people that are really not they're educated or may have something going on where you can sway them to do things that are unspeakable. Now, what we're doing, supposedly on the 3rd of November, it's been sending a message, but not the message to a point where it's a, hey, did you pay your money for the pay? review or hey, we all going to be in the back yard, we're going to watch this man put the

death in the wheelchair. No, that's disrespect to people who are paid the price. And anybody that is in uniform that has paid a price where mentally or physically, you didn't come back the same way. When you wake up in the morning, you look at that person in the mirror, you're constantly reminded of the price that you paid to defend this nation against all enemies for any domestic. That's what it is. Can I ask you a question? Can I ask you a question?

If it's live streamed, are you going to watch it? It's not the fact I'm going to watch. I'm going to be there. Yeah, right. But I mean, if you weren't there, would you watch it? Yes. You would watch it, right? I would.

Well, would Jaha. Let's just bring in this other execution, death penalty story, which is the Christopher Pike story, because here you have a woman. who was convicted of a despicable murder and been on death row and finally they get around to wanting to kill her and they fail.

I mean, in a most extraordinary manner, I'm sort of incredulous. Failed twice? Yeah, and I'm just like incredulous how that can happen, but it's happened, which shows a real flaw just in the execution process of the executions, never mind anything else.

But it has reopened the whole debate, in America about death penalty, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. And now we have the added thing of the live stream. I don't think it's going to end up being live streamed. I was a betting man, I think Trump is not going to let that happen. I think you'll want people to think it's going to happen, then it won't happen. It will be a part distraction to the midterms and so on. But I just can't imagine that President Trump is going to let the world watch this.

I might be wrong, but I think when we talk about this after the event, it will have been done behind closed doors, albeit with people like Alonzo there, to see this person killed. But the Krista Pike element to this, what do you make of all that? Look, no one here is more Catholic than the Pope, J.D. Evans, who might think he is,

but even the Pope has come against the death penalty and specifically the public shooting and the streaming of Nadal Hassan Malik because about the sanctity of life, right? When it comes to Krista Pike, it's an excellent example of why so many countries have moved away from the death penalty, the UK in particular.

they see it as a form of torture because all the data shows that public executions or even the death penalty does actually not deter violent crimes. Right. So that's number one. Number two, people are saying that many innocent people, especially in the United States of America, especially if you're poor or black, we have executed innocent black men that later are exonerated through DNA and blood. So the system is flawed. Now look at this flawed system when it comes to Krista Pike. Here, a horrible act of violence. She's a murderer. no one here is going to debate that. They were not only cruel, they were incompetent.

They failed twice, Pierce, to kill this woman. So she didn't die through lethal injection. Instead, she was in the hospital. Now she has permanent damage. And the whole world, even Republicans are like, my God, we have to be better than this. If this is what the death penalty brings about is that two botched attempts to kill a woman,

this is too much. And furthermore, this is the second time in Tennessee this has happened. So in addition to cruelty, there's also incompetence. So many people are like, whoa, whoa, let's revisit this. Why are we still doing this in the United States of America as the rest of the world has moved on now? When it comes to deterrence, Pierce, I do want to mention this. If you look at America, if you look at Israel, what do they say? Punch back harder.

We're going to show them. We're going to put our boot on the neck. The worst crime that happened in my lifetime in America was the 9-11 terror attacks, right? 3,000 Americans and many people from foreign countries were killed by 19 foreign hijackers. You and I oppose the war on terror, right, peers? What happened as a result of war terror? America hit back hard, right? Apparently, four to four to point five million people died directly or indirectly as a result of the war and terror.

Did it all of a sudden make the world safer? Did all of a sudden kill all these extremists? You saw the birth of ISIS. You saw ISIS and Taliban. You saw public executions. You saw some people radicalized. You saw some of these violent extremist groups use this as recruitment. And so what's going to happen with the public execution of Nal Shah al-Hasad Malika, a Palestinian-Muslim American,

who was in part radicalized by the war on terror, they will say, C, C, the West is at war with Islam. They're killing Iranians, they're killing Palestinians, they're killing the Lebanese. We're going to get recruitment. It will make us less safe. And meanwhile, you have cosplay crusaders like Andrew who will make millions of dollars spreading hate,

but he's not going to go and fight. Our soldiers would go and fight. And I wish he and others would have the grace of Alonzo, who is a victim, a survivor. And even he says, hey, hey, hey, I'm torn about the death penalty, but I'll go see it. I'm a survivor, but at the very least, we should not stream this because this will not act as a deterrence.

This will be barbaric. This will put in the leagues of North Korea, Iran, and Taliban, and we can be better. And I think, especially with Krista Pike, it really begs the question, maybe the death penalty it should be phased out in America. Because if this is the death penalty, what's the difference between this and public torture peers? Right. Andrew Wilson, I mean, that is a valid point. If you botched it twice.

I can dive into the points. Yeah. of all, the whole problem with the Pike thing is the methodology, right? You go in, you put a 45 to the back of the head, you pull the trigger, and then it's over. The problem is, is you're trying to give him lethal injection where there's tons of room for error. You think that this guy's going to live through the firing squad? Because he's not, he's not going to live through it, because that's what happens when

you get hit with multiple bullets, you die quickly. That's the problem. So just change the methodology. Boom, back of the head, dead, done. How will you feel, Andrew? How do you feel, how do you feel, the other problem that he's... If they go ahead with this firing squad of Nadalasana, and it is live streamed, and within a few weeks or months, God forbid, an American serviceman is captured,

and a jihadist group put him on live stream and kill him. And they say, well, you did it. How, what would your response be to that scenario? So we're supposed to cede something that's just because then terrorists will do something that's unjust to us. No, it's more about not giving them the excuse that they're craving. That would actually be ceding ground to terrorists. That's the whole point.

The whole point is if you're changing public policy and the things that you want to see happen which are justice-based because somebody else might do something which is then unjust to somebody who didn't deserve it, then you're actually seeding the very ground that you're trying to fight against to the first place. I think you're seeding a very important high moral ground which ought to differentiate.

the civilized world from the barbaric world of nihilistic. What makes it less or more moral, though? That's the whole problem I have. Nobody's made an argument for how it's lesser more moral. He's made an argument about how there could be blowback from people who already hate us. Sure, I can see that that might be true. There's going to be blowback for any type of public policy.

You see that that, but where's this higher moral ground coming from? What these people did was horrific, horrific. And by the way, Pike, didn't she? she tried to escape from prison? Does anybody remember that we had a famous serial killer who escaped from prison named Ted Bundy who killed more women? Like, we're just going to pretend that that didn't happen? The thing is funny here is like, you actually seed the ground of allowing these people to go and hurt other people because you don't have the testicular fortitude to put a bullet in them. And the truth is, is the American people actually want to want that to happen. They actually

want them to die because they're horrible people. And here you are. You're talking about Pete, Pete Hex says penis size. Oh, he has a small dick because he wants to kill this. It's like, no, how about you grow some balls and put these people down? Okay. They should be put down. John Fulgus saying, your response.

I mean, Christian right-wing fundamentalist lunatics murdering their prisoners on camera, like Islamic right-wing fundamentalist lunatics. Not murder. That's not murder. In the case of Christopi... Murder's unjustified killing... No, no, no, no, no. Please, Andrew, I know how much you enjoy not interrupting.

Let's be honest now. These people say big government, big government, but they think the government should be allowed to murder people. They think it's not murder when the government straps a person to a chair and fills them with poison or shoots them until they die. These pro-lifers are giddy for murder, and it's kind of funny because we kill people who kill people

to say that killing people is wrong. I think that's the moral argument here. Let's also not lose the tiny factor that Pete Hagseth is responsible for substantially more deaths of innocent people than the odious murderous, major Hassan. At least 235 deaths with no evidence, no due process of fishermen and boats off the coast of Venezuela. Over 150 children killed on the first day of this illegal, stupid war in an Iranian girl school. fact-finding mission reported that we were responsible for that strike. This is Pete Heggseth, who killed all those people who wants you to know they're going to kill this other guy because he killed people. Now, either killing people is wrong or killing people is not wrong. But this murder

on camera is not going to deter anybody. I think you're right, peers. This is going to give tons of propaganda to our foreign opponents who will then think it's okay to be ISIS all over again. With their arguing to do what ISIS did to murder prisoners on camera, it's not going to make Americans safer. This guy's in a wheelchair, Major Hassani. He's a paraplegic. He's not going to tunnel out. And no one's going to walk away from this murder on camera with any kind of renewed appreciation for the sermon on the Mount. This is what happens when Christianity stops following the guy who stood up to power and becomes like a branding exercise for people obsessed with power. This is not Christianity being a check on power. This is power dressed up in Christian drag.

And it's state-sponsored murder. Again, you can quote other non-Jesus chapters all you want. Jesus brought a new covenant and you cannot find any gospel teaching of Jesus where Jesus, I know you hate a interrupting dude, there's no reading of the gospel. Jesus is okay with murdering

prisoners. He says how you treat the prisoners is how you treat him. Can he answer the question? Is killing always murder? No, sometimes it's killing always. Okay, great. Sometimes it's not murder. So whenever you say these things like, oh, they're killing him, it's murder. Andrew, you like it.

Hang on. So you don't call him. Stop, stop, stop. Even if you like it's murder. The thing is funny here is like, if it's the case that you can kill and it's not murder, because what murder means is an unjustified killing, that's what it means. This would be a justified killing, Mr. Fugel saying. It's a justified killing.

The Jesus you pretend to follow differs, Andrew. The Jesus you pretend to follow differs quite substantially on that. Nope. How you treat the prisoners, how you treat him. Turn the other cheek instead of eye for a. You're treating the, listen. Who is sinless, Andrew? According to the Jesus, you guys use as camouflage, who gets to carry out the assassination? Who gets to do it?

It's not an assassination. Let me jump in just to read the words. Let me jump in. Let me jump in, guys. This is what Pope Leo posted about all this in the last few days. He said the death penalty is inadmissible because it's an attack on the inviability and dignity of the person. The common good can be safeguarded and the requirements of justice can be met without recourse to capital punishment. Effective systems of detention have been developed to protect citizens while at the same time do not completely deprive those who are guilty of the possibility of redemption.

I mean, Andrew, you know, we heard Alonzo talk about forgiveness. You know, if you are a person of faith, as we all are, I think here, you know, this idea of forgiveness. of redemption, the possibility of redemption. Obviously, what the death penalty does, it ends all that. Are you comfortable with that from your faith position? Yeah, it's just like, and listen, I'm really sorry that this happened. What happened to this gentleman is horrible, okay? It really is.

But I also understand him wanting to go and watch this guy get killed. I do. I understand it. I understand him wanting to see it. I understand him wanting to see his victimizer get put down like the rabid dog he was when he murdered a pregnant woman. She's curled in a fetal position. Last words again, oh my God, my baby. And this idea that there's some like moral high ground here because Fugel saying doesn't know what murder is because he doesn't understand that that just means

unjustified killing. The state putting people, the state putting down murderers is part of the state's job, in fact. And that is not a murder. That is a justified killing. And now when you're talking about the Catholic Church, which is interesting there, the Catholic Church contest this. It's contested within the church, just like in the Orthodox Church. And even if Pope Leo says this, that's not a decree, which is hilarious. So it's like, it's funny how this works. It's still heavily contested within those two churches. Folks, he can't quote Jesus to justify this. He can't quote Jesus. You don't kill prisoners under Jesus. It's not covered under his policy.

We, okay. Yeah, but you're not going to quote Christ. What about the apostles? Let me give the final word on this. Am I allowed to quote the apostles? The apostles who got the teachings from Jesus? You're allowed to do whatever you want because you can't quote Jesus to justify killing a prisoner.

You can't do it. Are we supposed to adhere to? You still get to enjoy it, Andrew? Are we supposed to adhere to state authority, Mr. Fugel Singh? According to Jesus himself. Oh, let me bring you that long. Jesus got killed because he didn't adhere to state authority, but that's another topic.

Let me bring in Alonzo. Again, are we supposed to give to Caesar? What is Caesar's? And didn't Paul say that we should adhere to state authority? That we get exactly the rulers that we deserve to have. Let's give it back to Pierce, please. Okay. I want to just give the last word on all this to Alonzo

because we've been trying to get in. Alonzo. Gentlemen, that day, one no damn body named Caesar, Apostle, anybody that got killed at that or won't it. We're going way off topic here. All right? Because the thing about it is that even right now, in my faith, I've forgiven him.

Do I want him to feel the same pain I feel? Oh, absolutely. Do I want him to feel where those families are feeling? Absolutely. My biggest thing is I don't want this to be made no spectacle. Now, let me throw something at you. Now, if this is like that, are you all willing to live with these sleeper sales is going to pop up? because we know that nobody is going to invade our country

to do anything. One, you got to worry about the military. You got to worry about the citizens, Second Amendment rights citizens walking around here. All right? We're not going back to those days, okay? So it's basically like six of one hand, half a dozen in the other,

about if you agree with it or you don't agree with it. My biggest issue is these kids because mentally they cannot handle this. Because if you look at a kid, then look at a video game, 2K for basketball, and then try to use those same moves just on the freaking game

to get a scholarship, then you don't lost your rabbit mind. Just like you got kids that are skinny and walk around here with a machine pistol down their pants. Thinking it's cool, but by the time you pull it and discharge you're already dating. Oh, I got a switch

on my glock. Now I realize when you fire the switch, it's going to go up and to the right, you haven't hit shit because you haven't been trained. The man committed a crime. He's going to pay the debt for the crime. Now, granted, because he's muslim, he prays five times a day. So what got out was why he was, before he praised, when he's being clean, he was taunting his capture. So there are people pissed off behind it. I mean, I'm pissed off behind it.

But it's a look that man had in his eyes that day. It can't nobody on his panel. tell me any religion in the world does not have some kind of blood on their hand. We all went to school that day. We all know about the lost books in the Bible. We all know what Muhammad did. We know this. We know about the caste system in India. What we're trying to do is to prove that we are a better nation where we don't have to bow down to the same methods of our enemies. Alonzo, I think you've summed it up very well there. I'm going to just very quickly ask, John, you have to go, as I'll ask you first on this, just for a quick reaction to that Ilyan Omar, the Democratic representative

for Minnesota, has had a home raided by federal agents as part of an immigration fraud investigation. What is your response to this? An absolute lack of surprise. This is on brand. This is more of what we expect from this administration. If she, you know, stole classified documents. You had no right to have on her high. then by all means they should raider. But we all know this is harassment, and this is the desperate attempt of a dying failed president to get his base to like him by hating on people they already hate. They've got nothing to offer the middle class. They've got no plans to lower gas prices or lower inflation. All they can do is have more hateful spectacle to try to distract

white folks to think that somehow this administration's fighting for them. Okay. John, always good to have a lot of program. Thank you very much. Based on what evidence, is this a fraud? Well, I'm going to know. John has to go. Yeah, I don't know exactly. John has to go. We'll let John go.

Thank you, John. I will come to you, Andrew. Please do with you. The background to this is that President Trump, a member of its administration, have accused Omar of harboring knowledge of large-scale financial fraud schemes in Minnesota and pushed as yet unsubstantiated or disputed claims

regarding her past, including long-denied rumors about a 2,000. and my marriage to an alleged brother. Omar's been a U.S. citizen for 26 years, arrived in the country as a refugee age 12 in 1995. So what is your response to this, Andrew? Well, I think we should always lead with evidence. This was signed off by a judge, is my understanding.

But this is just breaking. Nobody on this panel is competent to talk about it yet until we see what the actual evidence is. It could be very justified. Maybe the lives are right, and it's not justified. I don't know because we don't know what the evidence is yet. And so the responsible thing to do there is actually wait until we see some, and then we can either make the justifications or give it the condemnation that it deserves.

With Jah, I mean, we don't know the full bones of this yet. I do remember a very different view from those attacking this raid for when the raids were done against people like President Trump, for example. What's the difference? Shouldn't justice be seen to play out here? Because what we've seen for the past years is Donald Trump's Justice Department is more interested in protecting Donald Trump and his criminal friends than attacking his enemies. For example, the Justice Department is led by Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's personal attorney who is in violation of the Congressional Epstein Transparency Act. They're not going to release the Epstein files.

There have been zero investigations into the Epstein class, even though 85% of Americans, including Republicans, want more investigations of transparency. In fact, Donald Trump ran on it. But because he's mentioned more than any other person, not named Jeffrey Epstein, nothing. Instead, what we've got is bullshit investigations into Comey, Letitia James, Don Lemon, and now Ilhan Omer. Let's see, I'm going to go on in a limb and say they're going to find nothing. But it is a distraction because the elections are less than a month away. So far, it seems that Democrats will win the House and the Senate. Donald Trump is catering in his approval ratings.

The Iran war is a disaster. The economy is a disaster. It's not looking good. And yesterday, peers, I'm sure you saw that this right-wing attack on James Tol Rico, this lie that he was in the psychiatric center, got completely blown up, and they got humiliated. So next day, boom, pivot to this. And furthermore, when it comes to Minnesota and Somalis,

you've seen Donald Trump, and specifically the right wing, say that they come from shithole countries and attacking these black Muslims, wait for it, attacking Al-Human, Nadal Hassan's public execution, Iran war, Palestine, the genocide right, going back full circle, the world is watching this, Pierce. The world is watching this. So the world, especially those who are extremists, will say, aha, the West is at war with Islam. They hate Muslims.

It's fear baiting. It's rage baiting. It's distraction. It's also projection. If they did care about accountability and law and order, they would release the Epstein files. But they haven't. But let's see. Let's see.

Maybe they find something. I don't think they will. I just imagine being asked a direct question. move right into your talking points memo. The question was specifically about Elon Omar. That was you. You just went on a wild tangent. That's literally your past hour.

Nothing. You had nothing to do with Omar at all. And what's funny is the reason you bring up the talking points memo is because we're close to an election. So, oh, no, don't look at the fact that Democrats might be part of corruption, nor the Somalians who have been part of corruption. Democrats are part of the Epstein files. which is being which is being investigated rightly so

and that was all done by right-wing investigators who exposed all of that and we're just going to pretend that like the Somalian daycare scams didn't happen we're just going to pretend like these things are just untrue because you say so because you how about the the healthcare scams that they're involved in we're just going to pretend that doesn't happen either

because of Democrats because when Democrats do it it's okay release the Epstein files okay Yeah, great. Trump was the only one who did anything about Epstein. What did Biden do about Epstein? Anything? Where are the Epstein files? He promised you your base. He would release the Epstein files. He released millions of them, and here's what's going on.

Right now you have victim advocacy groups who want them to be retracted. The victims themselves and their attorneys petition the U.S. government to keep them retracted. Is that true or untrue? Andrew, you and Pete Hexs. Answer the question. Answer the question. Is it true or untrue? Answer the question.

Answer the question. Instead of actually acting like questions, you and Pete Haxsv. Is it true that the victims want these things retracted, true or untrue? You would actually be great recruits for the Taliban, but you'd fail the physical. Is it true or is it not true? Let's leave it. You just can't answer. You can't answer.

Release the evidence. It's so disingenuous. You're such a disingenuous lib. You can't even answer a basic question. Okay. You're a weak cosplay crusader. Much as Alonzo is chuckling at what he's witnessing here. I think it's time to bring it to an end.

Gentlemen, thank you all very much. Alonzo, sorry for tolerating that. Sorry for tolerating that. Alonzo, I think it was quite enjoying it, by the end. Alonzo, thank you. It's great to see you again. And I really appreciate you coming on the show 13 years after we first chatted. Amazing to think it's been that long.

But thank you very much. And it's really good to see you. All right. I look forward to see you guys again. Back to my panel, I'm joined now by Ashley Banfield, host of Drop Dead series. Ashley, great to see you. Hi, Pears. Good to see you again. Another old figure from my CNN day. So lovely to see you. Looking so well.

Thank you. You too. This whole issue of the death penalty has come under massive forensic light in the last few weeks, partly because of the Christopher Pike fiasco, where they made two botched attempts to actually execute her. And obviously now, with the threat by Pete Heggseth, they're going to live stream the execution. by firing of Nadal Hassan, the Fort Hood shooter. What is your view of what this says about the death penalty debate in America right now? Well, I haven't made a secret of my views on the death penalty, and it isn't for any moral question before anybody throws peanuts at the screen.

It's really because we're so imperfect, you know. I just feel as though if you're going to have the ultimate judgment, you better be as good as Jesus. And we are far from that. And I've got stats coming out of the Yinyang. And it's roughly around 4.1% the estimation by the government that we get it wrong when we condemn people to death. Not that we execute because actually people don't go to the courts very often

after someone's dead to relitigate, figure it out, exonerate. It does happen very little. Most of the efforts are actually at saving the living who might be innocent. So we're really good at getting the statistics, but it's roughly, you know, extrapolated to about 4% of those who are given a death penalty that are actually innocent. And that's very troublesome to me. Yeah. And, you know, I'm after you're going to interview a guy called Damien Eccles, who was one of the West Memphis three.

And I interviewed two of them at the time after their release, after they were exonerated, you know, 18 years or so after they were imprisoned and put on death row and treated a port. in prison because they've been falsely accused of murdering three young boys in a forest. And that was actually one of the reasons I personally switched my view about the death penalty because they would have been killed if it had happened on a sooner time scale. And it turned out they were completely innocent. And I just couldn't justify in my head executing people by mistake. And it happens a lot more than people think. And I think DNA has been a big part of exposing that, actually,

where a lot of crimes have been resolved years and years, decades later in some cases, by DNA. And you think, well, how many people have been executed around the world on false allegations? Well, about 203 since 1973, when America went back sort of towards 50-50 on the death penalty, you know, and a number of states adopted it. And I can't say that 203 have actually been executed, but at least 203 people who got a death penalty adjudicated at trial have been proven to be innocent. And that's troublesome.

How many of them might have gone to the execution had it not been for DNA? And that's not to say that DNA is perfect. I also think on the other side of the coin, so many of us have decided, well, our crime-fighting tools, are so elite now. We've got DNA. It's perfect. It's only as perfect as a handler. And I think we have all seen just horrendous cases of labs that are oversubscribed, you know, undereducated, and woefully inept at actually keeping samples straight. I myself, peers, have covered numerous cases where the lab results ended up being the definitive reason someone was convicted. And then, lo and behold,

oh, dang, it wasn't his sample. So, we, Again, I just keep coming back to we are so imperfect. We do our best at American jurisprudence. We do. But we suck. But here we have it. There's another component, of course, with the Nidal-a-san, which is this threat to live-stream it to the world.

How do you feel about that? I think I'm with Alonzo on this one. Pears, before you and I got to know each other at CNN, I had been a war correspondent. I had been to 26 different countries after 9-11. And I witnessed. you know, what justice was like in many of these places. And coming back to America, I had the epiphany that, oh, dear, we are now in a club I'd prefer

not to be in with North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, places that enact the death penalty. And some of them are still beheading and in public, in the public square. And so to join those ranks yet again with public executions, it just feels a bit medieval. to me. And Alonzo said it best, I think, where I don't think children should be subjected to this. And if you're going to live stream something, for God's sake, we all know that children can get porn pretty easily. Now they can get killing. I just think it puts us in a different order of human beings. It's not the order I want to be in. Yeah. I was arguing with Andrew Wilson there about the high moral ground. I do think it's important that countries like America and the UK, you know, remember the

high moral ground as a very useful weapon when you're dealing with people. people for whom morality and the rest of it is an irrelevance to their nihilistic or jihadist ambitions. And I think the moment you see the high moral ground by behaving exactly in the same barbaric way as the other side, well, then you should expect people to just view all as the same. Yeah, I think if we believe that a public firing squad is going to chasten would-be jihadists, I've got 19 people I'd like to introduce you to who gave no shits about flying themselves into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. And so it's been proven over and over again that the death penalty is not a deterrent for criminals, be them jihadists or otherwise. Jihadists actually impose their own death penalties.

So I'm not exactly sure why this became policy suddenly out of nowhere, out of the blue, that we would live stream an execution. But again, it does put us in a category of nations that I think if most people actually did the research, they prefer not to be associated with. Yeah. Do you think he's going to get live streamed in the end? I don't. I don't. I watch Tom Tillis on Friday night on HBO on Bill Maher's program, and he pretty eloquently said it.

And I think there are enough, I think there's enough Republicans who are prepared to say, well, that's a line we're not ready to cross. And I think they will say something. I think even Trump himself said, yeah, I heard about that. I think he's acknowledging that he heard about that, but he didn't confirm it. I think that's enough for us to realize that perhaps he's hedging on this one.

Yeah, I don't think it's going to happen. Ashley Beffle, great to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed for coming on. Good to see you again, Pierce. Well, I'm joined now by Damien Eccles, who was Ronnie convicted as one of the West Memphis Three and spent 18 years on death row. Damien, it's great to see you again.

I've not spoken to you in about 13 years either. First up, man, how are you doing? I'm doing really well. First of all, thank you for having me on here again. It's taken me a lot of years to kind of work through the trauma of everything that we experienced, but I feel like I'm finally on my path now

to living a content and happy life. I want to play a clip. This is from when, When we spoke when I was at CNN, and he were talking about the fact you hadn't really been exposed to any natural sunlight in all the time you were incarcerated and it had a really bad effect on your eyes and your sensitivity. And you wore actually dark glasses for some of the interview, not in the clip I'm about the show, but you're talking about this. Let's take a look. I hadn't seen daylight in almost a decade. I hadn't been exposed to sunlight.

In 10 years? Almost 10 years, yes. What are you thinking throughout this piece? I mean, this is, for an innocent man, as many believe that you are, and you've always protested this. What are you thinking when you're stuck in there? The only thing you can do and maintain your sanity is to not think about the case and not think about what's happening to you.

You have to sort of immerse yourself into a routine and never deviate from that routine. You know, work out your own exercise regimen, work out a meditation regimen, start some sort of practice, whether it be artwork, writing, whatever it is. You have to create your own world in there, or you'll go insane from that stuff. So in the context of that, I notice you're wearing shades today. Is that because of ongoing issues with your eyes? Yeah, they've actually continued to get worse since I've been out. I'd had a lot of physical ailments that were the result of things like poor nutrition

and sleeping on concrete for almost two decades, lack of sunlight, all of that stuff. it really takes a toll not just on your mental and emotional health, but also on your physical health. There's obviously been a lot of stuff about the death penalty in the news recently, which made me think of you. Because I said to a previous guest, I did change my view about the death penalty after I interviewed you. I found the interview profoundly moving in many ways.

And also, it just made me aware that had you been executed on a shorter timeline, then, you would have been exonerated after you were dead, which is obviously no good to you or anybody else in that position. And since DNA came out, I've done lots of crime series where I interviewed lots of serial killers and psychopaths and so on. But in a number of those cases, latterly, I've noticed that DNA evidence was used to catch the real killers, the real perpetrators. And often other people had been framed for them and were serving time exactly as you had done. What do you feel about the death penalty, given what happened to me?

Were you a believer before you were put in prison? And how do you feel now? I think when I was, you know, I was basically still a kid whenever I was sent to prison. I was 18 years old. So it honestly wasn't something that I'd given a great deal of thought to one way or the other. I think my exposure to things like that would have been what the average persons is, which is, you know, seeing it on television shows, things like that. But it wasn't anything that I'd ever, you know,

sat down and really thought deeply about. And it's still, to this day, I don't think, you know, even after going through everything that I went through, I don't think it's a black and white situation. I think there's a lot of gray areas there. You know, I knew people when I was on death row who had completely rehabilitated themselves and experienced extreme remorse for things that they had done in their lives.

And those people could have been used in some way. You know, those people could have helped add, you know, put, they could have done programs to, to help rehabilitate other people, you know, through their experiences. I think we were wasting a resource by executing those people. But at the same time, I also saw people in there who would, until the day they die, go on to continue to hurt and kill other people, even behind bars, whether it was prison guards or whether it was, you know, other prisoners, even innocent prisoners. So I don't think it's as black and white as most people want it to be.

I think there's a lot of shades of gray there, and I think my feelings about it are still almost too massive to get a finger hold or a handhold on. It's a very big thing for me that I still wrestle with to this day. When you have somebody like Nidal-Hassan, where there's no doubt about, what he did. And he mass murdered a huge number of people

and wounded many others. Do you feel that the death penalty is a valid form of punishment in a case like that? I don't think the death penalty is ever a valid form of punishment. You know, I don't think any of the things people usually use it, associate it with, you know, like being a deterrent, things like that. I don't think any of that stuff is really valid. I think the only time that stuff like that might even come close to being valid

is if you were using it because you knew this was a situation where this person was going to go on to hurt even more people. So I don't think, you know, using it for something like a punishment is ever going to work. But in the case, interestingly, then, are the inmates that you were in with who did keep killing people even when they were inside? Would you think, is there a purpose of keeping people like that alive? or is it actually, you know, the right thing for society to end their lives to stop them continuing to kill other people?

You know, I'm honestly, to tell the truth, not even comfortable, speculating about stuff like that because it kind of forces me to put myself in the position of judge, jury, and executioner. And that's not something that I would ever, you know, those aren't shoes that I would ever want to step into. And what about this idea that it may be live stream, that he'll be killed,

by firing squad and it lies streamed to the world. What do you think of that? I, to be honest, I think it's absolutely horrifying. And I don't think anything good could come from that. You know, like everyone knows by now, the death penalty is not a deterrent, as in stopping other people from committing these sorts of crimes. And as a matter of fact, the guy wanted to die.

You know, that's what people who do things like that want to do. They want to become a martyr. So in a way, it's like you're giving him, giving him what he wants, but I also think it's much bigger than that. You know, like someone was saying earlier, children are going to see this. You know, we live in an age where even if you choose to try not to view these things, it's going to get turned into memes and people are going to be reposting it, and you're going to come in contact with it even if you don't want to see these sorts of things.

And I think, you know, that saying about how you are, what you eat, I think that goes far, far beyond just what we consume food-wise. I think that that's also true of everything that we choose to take into our minds and into our hearts. And I think if you consume stuff like this, it slowly poisons you. It desensitizes you and it does things to us that just are not beneficial to our own personal lives or to society as a whole. You, I believe, did see somebody commit a murder when you were in prison. And it had quite a big effect.

More than once. And it had a big effect on you watching this happen. Tell me about that. Absolutely. The very first time I ever saw someone murdered when I was in prison, it was a guard that was stabbed to death by an inmate. And this was a guard that had actually shown kindness to me. You know, he wasn't like completely inhuman.

And he was stabbed to death just because. because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And to this day, I can't tell you exactly what it did to me. Like there's, I can't articulate it. I just know that it felt like it broke something in me in a way that would never be healed and never be normal again. Like after that happened, I cried for about three days,

but I could not have told you why I was crying. Like if you could have, if you asked me, what are you crying for? I could not have even articulated. I just knew that something in me had been broken from being in proximity to that and witnessing that. What do you think should have happened to the person who did perpetrate the crimes that you were falsely accused of?

I think they should be in prison for the rest of their lives. And it should probably also be investigated whether they, you know, committed any other crimes. Because I personally find it hard to believe that someone who would do, who would commit a crime of the kind that we were accused of and imprisoned for would just stop doing it after. that. You know, it was a very heinous thing. So I think even more investigation should be done. And as a matter of fact, we didn't stop working on this case after I got out of prison. We're still doing more DNA testing right now. We're waiting to hear results that could come in potentially

any day now. The original round of testing that we did excluded me and the other two men from the crime scene. But what we're doing right now is we are hoping that the testing that's being carried out will actually pinpoint the person who committed these murders. Do you have a suspicion who it is? I do. Yeah, I do. I had a lot of time to sit and think about this, and I don't think it's who most people are thinking it is. You know, there's been a lot of speculation on this case by, you know, various people who all have suspects in mind for different reasons. I think it's someone who hasn't even been looked at or considered. I don't want to put any names on it yet because I could very well be wrong

and I don't want to do the same thing to someone else that was done to me, you know, pointing the finger at someone. But I think it's someone who no one has even considered yet. I think either they were responsible for it as a whole or they contributed to it in some way. Wow, that'll be fascinating if that develops. Damien, really good to speak to you again after all this time and to see you looking so well. I wish you all the very best. You too.

Thank you so much for having me and speaking to me again. Pierce Morgan Unsensit is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Pierce Morgan Unsensate on Spotify and Apple Podcast. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. and we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media

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