Piers Morgan Uncensored - ‘Total BULL*** From a LYING Military’’ IDF Takes On Piers Morgan, Mehdi Hasan and Hasan Piker

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

A new row has erupted between the IDF and Piers Morgan over his coverage of journalists killed during the war, with Israel challenging the claims surrounding their deaths. In tonight’s Uncensored, Piers is joined by founder of Zeteo Mehdi Hasan, Israeli broadcaster Amit Segal, Palestinian-American journalist and commentator Omar Baddar and senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies Jonathan Conricus to debate the evidence and controversy over journalists reporting from the conflict. Plus, Piers speaks to Daniel Schlichter, a witness aboard the Israel-bound Flydubai flight, and former commercial pilot Captain Steve Scheibner about the alleged hijacking and the Omani pilot at the centre of the story. (00:00:00) Introduction  (00:03:58) Mehdi Hasan (00:11:44) IDF’s ban on international journalists in Gaza (00:20:00) Piers vs Jonathan Conricus on casualty numbers (00:27:00) Amit Segal on Gaza media ban (00:41:00) Mehdi Hasan vs Jonathan Conricus  (00:46:11) FlyDubai hijacking attempt (00:57:00 Passenger Daniel Schlichter  (01:06:57) Captain Steve Scheibner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A camera does not give him unity to a terrorist. They were talking a big game, peers. You know, in some entries, they don't have any evidence at all. They just say multiple intelligence sources. So it's trust me, bro, we're the IDF. It's total bullshit from a lying military. And they know it's bullshit because they didn't come here to defend their numbers.

First of all, I'm so relieved to find Medi's safe and sound. The only thing, white out than Antarctica in the winter in the last few days was Medi's Twitter account after the plane hijacking. After the question, Jonathan, where's the evidence in this files that you brag about? I will do so in my own time. Just like you haven't shed a tear for Israeli civilians murdered by Hamas. By the way, we're commemorating three years since. You're like just yesterday.

Just yesterday I posted about Israeli civilians, you liar. You're probably the only person on this panel that kill people. You were in the IDF. My safety's fine. After your grand standard for half an hour. Oh, my fucking. Well, coming up, we'll talk about the hijacking of a flight bound for Israel by an Marni Pilot who had been banned in his own country,

extremist views. But we begin with an extraordinary propaganda campaign by the IDF, which attempted to humiliate, among others, me. Last week, the IDF took a much-needed break from waging war on seven fronts to cinematically tease revelations, which would apparently prove they aren't killing real journalists in Gaza. The IDF has killed over 200 Palestinian journalists and tries to pretend they're all Hamas. Israel assassinated numerous Al Jazeera journalists. At least 90 Palestinian journalists and media workers have been killed in Gaza. Israel is responsible for the biggest killing of journalists ever recorded in any conflict.

For almost three years, you've heard the fake news soon will expose the truth, they said. Well, the first truth is that I didn't simply invent the fact that many journalists have been killed in Gaza. The reporting didn't originate with Medi Hassan or Owen Jones either. And it certainly wasn't based on an investigation by Hassan Pika. It's based on credible fact-based reporting from neutral and trusted international bodies. who do this in defence of press freedom with every conflict around the world.

The Committee to Protect Journalists is a global standard bearer. Its numbers tend to be conservative as it examines each case before adding it to the count. It says 190 journalists have been killed in Gaza. Reporters without borders says that 220 have been killed, at least 70 for the specific reason

that they are reporters. The International Federation of Journalists has logged at least 240 journalists and media workers killed in the war. This is the deadliest conflict for, journalists ever in history, according to United Nations. The reason we talk about this should be obvious. Targeting journalists is a war crime. Israel's banned international media from entering Gaza independently since day one of the war and that ban remains in place. It's obviously in the interest of those accused

of war crimes to obscure information about those crimes in order to cover them up. And the so-called dossier of evidence unveiled this weekend by the IDF and their so-called press files looks like a very weak attempt at doing exactly that. Much of a so-called evidence provided looks like this. ABC, BBC and LeMond journalist, it says, word for Hamas based on intelligence sources. No further information. No admission that those sources are Israeli sources.

No real evidence at all. Just take our word for it. Well, the fact is that Hamas was in charge of Gaza. Alongside its militant wing is a boring bureaucracy which paid pensions, ran hospitals, and oversaw pretty much every government job. On that basis, many thousands of people were linked to Hamas, including journalists, and some of them were, probably militants too.

We don't really know. And the reason we don't know is the same reason that international media relied on local Garzan journalists to get footage and information out. Israel refuses to let them in. Well, what I mean now is Mehdi Hassan, founder of Zateo, who featured in that IDF video alongside me. So the IDF, MEDY, suggested they'd have somebody here to explain their revelations on the show today

and to debate this with you. But as you can see from our empty chair, it turned out nobody in the entire organization ended up being available, which is a great shame. But you are, and so we won't be empty chairing you because you're sitting in yours. What was your reaction when you first saw this video from the IDF? I mean, I chuckled because, you know, this is the IDF, which is very good at, you know, bragging about what's going to come and then it always turns out not to be what they want it to be. So I'm glad you empty-chaired them because they were talking a big game peers on Twitter. They were tweeting at me and you.

They were quote tweeting. They were in my reply saying, here's the evidence. And now we're here. I want to test that evidence. I've gone through the files, as have you. And they don't want to come defend their own. reporting. Let's just be very clear. The Committee to Protect Journalists, as you just mentioned, has a list of 191 journalists in Gaza who were killed by Israel. 191. That is more than double the

number killed in Afghanistan, more than triple the number killed in Vietnam. It is the deadliest conflict, as you mentioned a moment ago, according to the CPJ. The Israelis have come along and said, hey, we have 170 militants that people called reporters. Here's our list. They published it. We've gone through it, you've gone through it. My good friend Muhammad Shahada, Palestinian journalist, went through every single entry. And he points out that 59 entries in that list, more than one in three, are people where there's no evidence offered at all. You just mentioned Rajdi Saraj. Mustafa Therai is another person. They just say, multiple intelligence sources. So it's, trust me, bro, we're the IDF. No, we don't trust you. You have a history of lying.

They then, you know, in some entries peers, they don't have any evidence. They don't have any evidence. at all. They don't even say intelligent sources. Can I show you one? I printed one out just to show your viewers how ludicrous this is. This is from the IDF website. The man named Hassan Marzuk, Hassan Samor. It says position held military operative in Hamas. That's it. No evidence, not even a mention of intelligence. They just want you to take their say-so. The same Israeli military that killed Shirin Abu Akle in 2022 and said, we didn't do it. And then they said, okay, we did do it. In 2023, they said beheaded babies. Then they said, okay, there are no beheaded babies.

In 2024, they shot at Hind Rajab and they said, we didn't do that. And then they said, okay, we did do that. In 2025, they lied about killing 15 paramedics in Gaza. This is a military that constantly lies, gets caught lying, and now they've put out a report with 170 people, many of whom don't even appear on the CPJ list. It's total bullshit from a lying military. And they know it's bullshit because they didn't come here to defense.

their numbers. You know, it's interesting. So like you say, the CPJ lists 190 deaths there. About 78 people appear on both the Israeli IDF list and the CPJ list, meaning they disagree about whether those people were journalists or militaries. But for the most part, the two lists don't actually overlap. So there are a large number of people who are not categorized as terrorists by the idea, if it seems, who were categorized a journalist by the CPJ. So it's all, even by their own yardstick, very confusing. I mean, look, I'm not naive enough. It's strawmen. Yeah, look, I'm not naive enough to think that there were no people operating potentially as press, media, journalists who were potentially a mass terrorist operating in disguise. I'm not naive.

I'm sure that probably happened. What I seriously questioned. What I seriously questioned. according to all the independent reports is how many that was. And what the idea for trying to do with this video they put out is they're trying to smear anybody who suggests a large number of journalists were killed for being journalists, because that is a war crime. And I, like you, we've been through this very carefully, the evidence is either non-existent or extremely flimsy

about a large number of these people. And ultimately, if you conflate everybody employed by the Hamas government, as a militant terrorist, you are showing either a gross misunderstanding of what was happening there, or you're simply hoping no one's going to notice the difference. Because the truth is they were elected as a government, and a lot of people worked for the Hamas government who were not terrorists. A lot of side themselves with Hamas and are militant terrorists.

And a lot of them had nothing to do with Hamas, as we've seen in this list. As you mentioned, there are 49 cases, according to Mohammed Shahado, who looked at this. where they publish obituaries from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, see, see, even Hamas say these guys worked for them. And guess what, peers, the vast majority of those 49 cases don't appear on the Committee to Protect Journalist's list. It's a complete straw man. Listen to this one example.

There's a guy called Abdullah Darwish, who worked for Hamas's Alaksa TV, and the Israelis say he took part in October 7th, and they have him on their list of 170. Guess what? He's never been listed as a journalist by the Committee to Protect Journalists. So it's a complete straw man. And by the way, of course there were people who were linked to Hamas. CPJ has actually removed 22 people from their list.

They've already done the due diligence. It's the Israelis want to you to believe that all 200 were Hamas militants, which is bullshit. And they don't offer any evidence for that. And here's another important point about international law. Even if you are a propagandist, let's say you are a Hamas photographer for some Hamas organization and you're taking pictures that make Hamas look good. you cannot be killed under international law. Just being a propagandist is not a good enough reason to murder someone.

You have to be engaged in hostilities. You have to be engaged in combat. You have to be actually in action. So for example, Hossam Shabbat, 23 years old journalist, a guy I knew murdered by Israel. They say he's a Hamas operative. He was a sniper for Hamas. They cite a document which shows that he went through a Hamas training camp in 2019.

when he was 17 years old, apparently. The fact that when you were 17, you went to a training camp does not mean you can be murdered in 2024. That's not how international law works. Yeah, and the other thing I would point, there's obviously this ridiculous irony here, which is that this is all information being put into the public domain by the IDF,

talking about how many journalists or otherwise they have killed, and why they've done it, and why their explanation is they're all. terrorists. Of course, the easiest way to establish the veracity of this would be for the IDF and the Israeli government to lift its ongoing ban on all international media operating freely in Gaza, despite the fact there's now been a ceasefire for most of his years. So supposedly there's a ceasefire. There can be no safety or security reason, as they keep saying, why journalists shouldn't be allowed to operate there. Even Jonathan Comrick is one of my guests on

the panel today has regularly sided with me about how ridiculous it is that journalists aren't allowed in. If the IDF want people to understand what's actually happened in Gaza and to establish once and for all whether they have indeed, as they keep saying, being the most moral army in the world, that doesn't sit very easily with the ongoing ban on any journalists who might be able to report that or establish that beyond doubt or investigate any of these stories. or investigate their claims about the journalists. If they keep banning them, how can they get to the bottom of it? We're supposed to just believe what the IDF put in the public domain.

And it's not, you know, it's not, I don't know, I don't cite a random country. It's not the Belgian military or the Australian military. It's the Israeli military, which has been caught lying multiple times. We made a documentary at Zetae appears, as you know, called Who Killed Shereen. It's an award-winning documentary. We investigated the Israeli soldier, the sniper, who kills Shireen Abu Akle, the Palestinian American journalists in the West Bank in 2022. This is before October the 7th.

They've been killing journalists well before October the 7th and then lying about it. And when they killed Shireen, they said Palestinian gunman killed her. She got caught in crossfire. They lied. They got caught. We now know it was an Israeli soldier. We know his name. We know everything about that case.

But they lied. And as you say, and you rightly have been saying this on your show for months, for years now, why not let if you don't trust Palestinian journalists? If they're all Hamas, why aren't you letting in CNN, the BBC? see whoever you like because they've got something to hide. They don't want people to see evidence of their war crimes. And I would point this out as well, Pierce. They don't just kill journalists and then lie about it. They put out a report saying we would never kill journalists. And then on Twitter, when they put the report out, their former spokesman, a man I've debated,

a man you've had on your show, Alon Levy. First, he says they've put me in their crosshairs. And then he says, Piers Morgan can come to Gaza. I don't know if he's going to get out. Like, they use threatening mafia language while they pretend to be the most moral army of the world. He was the clown that was deemed too extreme even for this Netanyahu administration and got relieved of his duties. So I don't think we should take anything he says too seriously. But the casual way he was tossing out his threats on social media was quite revealing, I thought. Medi, you're going to stay with us. We'll be bringing the rest of the panel now.

Israeli broadcaster Amit Siegel, the Palestinian American journalist and commentator Omar Bader and Jonathan Conricka Senior Fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and, of course, a former IDS spokesman. Jonathan, welcome back to Uncensor. Let me start with you because, like I said, you have always agreed with me that it is wrong that international journalists are not being allowed into Gaza to operate freely and do their jobs. I would say massively more so, given they're supposed to be a ceasefire. But, you know, Medi alluded to a number of occasions in which the IDF have made statements

that were later turned out to be untrue about the deaths of... including journalists, but also young children. Why should we just believe the IDF when they say in this supposed damning dossier that all these people were Hamas terrorists, when the evidence provided is so incredibly flimsy, and when there is no opportunity for independent international journalists to get in and verify any of this? Shalom Pierce and hello everyone.

You know, I was watching you and Mechdi in that. that bromance you have. You know, it's like the blind helping the deaf, really. I thought that you would take this opportunity and at least look into the information and say, hold on. I've been touting this line now for a long time, and I've been attacking Israel, and I've been basing what I say,

based on a lot of questionable sources, at least I could, you know, pause for a second, look it over, and give it at least the benefit of the doubt. And what you've done is very selective. And I'll want to point out a few things, if I may, uninterrupted. One would be that even Hamas and the Islamic Jihad and another smaller organization called the Resistance Committees, they have issued obituaries themselves of 71 out of the 170 terrorists on the name have been claimed by Hamas and Islamic Jihad. And yes, I agree, I've gone through, I've sifted through the names, I've looked at the committee,

to protect journalists and other lists. And I agree that they are not 100%, they're not identical. And that is an issue that Israel needs to deal with. But I will say that. Well, they're significantly different, to be clear. There are significant numbers of people who don't appear on that.

The majority of the Obit list is not on there. There are still 71 terrorists. And this is where I really expected you to be above what you've currently displayed. And that is to say, you know what? I've been saying that Israel has killed when Hamas and Islamic jihad say in themselves that 71 out of 190 people that have been claimed in various sources. That's false.

It's not 71 out of 190. Yes, it is 71. It's not 71 out of 190. Yes. The 190 is not the same as the 170. But it's not the same list, Jonathan. It's a totally different list. You're lying.

I know it is. It's a totally different list. I know it is. I've been through it. So don't lie to people. Merdi, if you want to. going to start interrupting already. That's a new low even for you. If you lie, I'll fact check you. P.S.

or I can't say factually, you can't say factually false statements. You are a small propaganda. It's not 70 out of 190. Who lies and who doesn't lie, Mehdi. You're the spokesman for a genocidal military. You're a spokesman for a military that's indicted at the ICC. I know them better than you do. And you are no one to election. No, you don't because you just lied. Not about propaganda. You just lie. Well, let me stay. Let me jump.

Just to be clear, let me just, let me just state, let me just state again. Let me just state again. I'd appreciate it. Let me just be clear, Jonathan, so the viewers may be confused now. So let me just remind everybody what we know is a fact. The Committee to Protect Journalists lists 190 deaths of Palestinian reporters and media workers that is documented during the war, right? Out of which they've already reduced.

Wait a minute, let me finish. Because they were caught lying. Let me finish. Because they were caught lying here. Let me finish. About 78 people appear on both the IDF list and the CPJ list, meaning they disagree about whether those people were journalists and ministers. But the majority, the majority do not appear on the IDF list. So when you try and conflate the two lists, it is deliberately misleading people.

No, what I'm saying is very clear that I expect, I'm not saying that the numbers that the IDF are provided are perfect. I'm saying that this should at least have caused serious. people who treat themselves and want to be accredited as serious journalists to say there are 71 names of journalists that are on various lists. It isn't only the CPJ list. They're on various lists. Jonathan, why are you being dumb or dishonest?

And where Hamas and Islam and Jihad claim them themselves. Why are you not understanding? Well, what I can say, what I can say, what I can say is that the CPJ removed 19 men from its own list when its own further investigations found they were combatants, No, that's not their only, no. Hang on. Hang on. If you want to be factual, hang on. If you want to be factual, CPJ were dragged into taking names off their list after civilians in the internet and all kinds of researchers exposed and they did it twice. First, they took down eights and then they took

down almost, I think it was 23 or 24. They've actually taken down, they've actually taken 27 people off their original list, right? So they have been doing their utmost to try and get to the truth. And they were, yes, and they were taking more. They will take down even more. I've already conceded to, in the start of all this, but I'm not naive enough to not think that some people were pretending to be journalists or using media badges or whatever

who were Hamas terrorists. I'm sure that was the case. The question is how many and how many genuine journalists have been brutally killed, of which it seems to be still a lot of people, a lot of journalists. Let's remind ourselves.

So to that, Piers, that's a very important point. And I agree with you 100%. A journalist, who is only a journalist, should never ever be targeted, and anybody in a combat zone should make real efforts to keep those persons safe. And I know that the IDF does that. I also know that the IDF does great efforts

in order to kill terrorists. And the 190 people that are on the list that the IDF disclosed were first and foremost terrorists. It is also true that the IDF have killed over 75,000 people in Gaza in response to terrorists? No, it isn't. No, it isn't, Pierce. You're based that on Hamas numbers.

You know that when you say that you include natural deaths. You've already conceded, Israel's government has conceded, that Gaza Health Ministry numbers are broadly accurate. So why are you disputing your own government's position on this? Listen, Pierce, if you take Hamas numbers and you include all of the 75,000 people, listen, Pierce, let's be serious. You say that those numbers are accurate. The Israeli governments conceded the Gaza Health Ministry numbers,

are broadly accurate. No, that was an off-the-cuff statement a long time ago by someone who, I don't know how connected he was to fact, but the fact of the matter... Has he been taken to a gulag somewhere? Jonathan, you're struggling today, Jonathan, with the propaganda. And others, other serious analysts

have looked into the numbers that Hamas have been sharing. Yes, the economists say more than 100,000. How many have died then, Jonathan? The obvious, very clear statement is that all of those liars, including Mechdi, who have been paralyzed, this nonsense about genocide. Oh, well, hang on, let's be clear. Jonathan, if the Gaza health ministry numbers are wrong,

how many people have been killed? Yeah, so that's a good question. And I know you love asking it, and I know you've asked several Israelis about it. And here's the numbers that I know, based on the information that I've been able to corroborate from Israeli sources, from Hamas sources, from open source Intel, and it is the follows.

The IDF assesses- Oh, you're gathering information from how sources. You do trust them after all. Yeah. When they issue obituaries, when they issue obituaries, when they issue a bit of a... Yeah, when they issue an obituary and when they play... You said you've spoken to your Hamas sources. Who are these people? When they issue... Fears, when they issue obituaries and when they pay stipends to a widow, I sure as I will

definitely take that into account. And when Hamas holds a military funeral from someone who otherwise... What's the... According to you, Jonathan, how many people have been killed in Gaza since a war started? Right. So the number of uninvolved people that probably were not combatants based on those different sources of information, the corroboration of the different sources, according to my understanding, is around 38 or 39,000 people. That is what I understand based on insufficient income.

And how many terrorists? Based on and at least 25,000 terrorists where the IDF knows with a high level of certainty, not 100%, because no military ever... So your figure is about 63,000? Is that right in total? Roughly. Okay. So you're saying it's 12,000 or so less than the official Guardser health minister's figure. You're also not factoring in natural deaths and you're not factoring in deaths caused by Hamas. Okay, but let's take your figure.

Jonathan, I hear you. Let's take your figure. 38,000 civilians then have been killed. Yes. Okay. And how many civilians were killed on October the 7th? Almost 1,300. But I think that's a very... That's a lie.

That's a lie. Stop lying, Jonathan. Stop lying, Jonathan. Stop lying, Jonathan. Pierce, I think you're making a totally irrelevant comparison. I'm going to make a direct comparison. No, we can do the same comparisons with Germany and England. I'm going to make one comparison, Jonathan, and be finished.

Based on your own figures, you say 38,000 civilians have been killed. It has been reported that of the 1,200 who were killed October the 7th, 400 were military and 800 were civilians. So there is now currently, by your numbers, 38,000 people, civilians in Gaza have been killed in response to the murder of 800 people. people. That is why many people view the IDF response of being disproportionate, even if we take your... Absolutely nonsense. Of course. You know what that's nonsense, Pierce? Of course you would say that. Because yes, you know why? But Pierce, there's a very basic reason. Where was the IDF fighting?

Where was Hamas hiding underneath? And who were they using as their human shields? Well, that's not what NASA. I tell you what I want to bring in, I want to bring in the other guess. What I would also point out, that given 75% of Gaza has been leveled to the ground. How you can be certain how many civilians died under the rubble is completely beyond me. But anyway, let me bring in the others. Omar Bada, look, whether you say it's 75,000, 68,000, whatever, whether we say it's X number of journalists or this number of journalists, the truth is all the independent studies here have said and concluded

that there have been more journalists killed, actual journalists, not terrorists, have been killed in Gaza, since the start of this war than in any modern conflict. And as a journalist, I find that horrific. And if the IDF want to try and justify each one of those deaths as being, well, they were Hamas, weren't they? My answer is very straightforward, right? Maybe you're right.

Let's seem for a moment you're right. Then let independent journalists in to do their job and verify this. Until you do, I'm not going to believe it. You know, peers, Jonathan opened up his statement by saying you should give the benefit or the doubt to the claims that are presented by the Israeli military. Well, I'm sorry, that's not how the world works. When you are proven to have lied over and over and over again and you keep getting caught, you lose the benefit of the doubt.

You no longer can be trusted and given the benefit of the doubt. They have killed an American citizen who is a journalist in the West Bank, Shereen Abakle, before October 7th, and lied about it. They were caught in South Lebanon photoshopping, using AI to fake an image of a journalist that they murdered to put military fatigues on them. And Mahdi went over the entire list of the endless. instances in which they have been caught lying after murdering civilians and trying to cover it up,

you are dealing with people who have absolutely no regard for the truth whatsoever, and who will say absolutely anything to either cover for or distract from the campaign of mass murder and mass torture and ethnic cleansing that they're imposing on Palestinians, not just in Gaza, peers, but in the West Bank as well. And now they come on your show and they all feign, you know, they will agree with you when you say, why don't you let international journalists in? And they'll say, yeah, yeah, we agree, Israel should let them in. But But what they're missing here is that they're pretending that this is some kind of like misjudgment by Israel. When in fact, not letting international journalists into Gaza is exactly the same reason they're

mass murdering journalists who are inside Gaza already. This is all part of a continuous campaign in which they are trying to block out the truth of the crimes that they are committing. They want to intimidate anybody who is reporting on the crimes that they are committing that are absolutely unspeakable destroying the civilian population in Gaza. That is what they're doing. And that's why they come here and they say, oh, give us the benefit of the doubt and we agree with you and whatever, but it's all just a sham.

They are trying to cover up for genocide, pure and simple. Okay, Amit Siegel, thank you of your patience, and welcome to Unsenzo, first time we've had you on. You were a reporter for IDF Radio in 2000. You're an Israeli broadcaster. You're very well-known over there. As a journalist, do you not feel uncomfortable, but despite many months of a so-called ceasefire, the Israeli government continues to ban international journalists from operating freely in Gaza?

So, first, thanks, for having me. First of all, I'm so relieved to find Medi's safe and sound. The only thing quieter than Antarctica in the winter in the last few days was Medi's Twitter account after the plane hijacking by a Muslim terrorist. So thanks, God, Medi is okay. As for your question, I think it cuts both ways. Because if you claim that only journalists, active journalists were killed who were murdered by the IDF, journalists that speak truth to power,

journalists that didn't hesitate to attack Hamas. So why are you so obsessed with opening the Gaza Strip for other journalists? Those are journalists that worked for CNN, for BBC, for Sky News. And according to your argument, they were journalists, not terrorists. So if the Gaza Strip is wide open... But I've said very clear... Hang on, hang on. Just a second.

Amet, I've said very clearly. You were... Hang on, hang on. I said very clearly, let's be clear. I've said very clearly international journalists. I'm not talking about Palestinian journalists operating in Gaza, over which there is clearly a dispute about the number who were legitimate journalists and the number who were not.

I'm talking about the ongoing ban, unprecedented, actually, of the Israeli government banning international journalists from operating freely in Gaza. And by the way, Jonathan Conrickers has agreed with me on this point since pretty much the start of the war. And I simply say to you as an Israeli journalist, whatever your views about any of this, how can you be comfortable with such a grotesque,

ongoing suppression of free press to get to the bottom of what has been happening there? Well, I'm not a spokesperson for the Israeli government and you can refer the question. But what is your view? What is your opinion? My view is that the Gaza Strip could have been open earlier. But to be honest, when I hear this discussion, I don't think anything would change in the distorted perception

according to which Israel can do no right and Hamas can do no wrong. You have just described for the last few minutes how Israel lied and Israel cannot enjoy the benefit of the doubt, but who can enjoy the benefit of the doubt? Of course, Hamas. Now I have to explain something which is crucial. There is no such thing as the international human rights organizations as who enjoys the benefit of the doubt.

There is no, please let me finish. Thank you so much. There is no such thing as the Ministry of Health in Gaza. It's Hamas. There is no such thing as journalists in Gaza as a whole because they all work for Hamas. It's like expecting to have a free coverage in North Korea. By the way, even worse than this.

Because if you do not report exactly what they asked, you'll find yourself. What did you report when you were working for IDF radio out of interest? Do you really compare the democracy of Israel? Were you critical of the IDF when you worked for IDF radio? Of course. You're talking about propaganda outlets in the media. Yes, he was.

Yes, he was, Pierce. And what you're doing is so ignorant. I'd like to hear that. Pierce, Pierce, what you're doing, it really tells me, sorry, if I'm insulting, but how ignorant you are and how you're trying to make... Well, I'm sorry you're interrupting Amit, Jonathan, because I think you're big on interruptions.

No, no, it's okay. Why don't you let Ammitz be from... But it's amazing to make that from Paris. You're being... You're being... You're interrupting me. So some respect to Amette. While Pierce was busy interrupting me.

So please don't take his... role. Now I want to answer your question. If you would be familiar with the Israeli media landscape, you would have known that one of the most critical news outlets towards the government, and especially the Netanyahu government, is the IDF radio station. That's the reason, by the way, why the coalition wanted to legislate against it being operating under the IDF. So the answer is yes. And another answer is that you cannot compare the IDF in a democratic country. IDF radio to the fundamentalist terrorist clunatic dictatorship of Hamas in the Gaza's ship. Now, I want to explain something really crucial that you might, you might not aware of.

There was a WhatsApp group in which journalists asked for permission for Hamas to publish things. They got orders. So any idea to depict journalists in Gaza as if they speak truth to power, the power is Hamas, of course, is ridiculous. It doesn't go ahead and then with the facts on the ground. And you cannot compare, you cannot compare this. Now, I think that's the reason why at the end of the day, you fail to understand that when you walk for Hamas, you can't be both journalist and a fighter or combatant or terrorist in Hamas.

And the excuse you gave them. This is an absurd double standard. Just one second. So the, the Israeli military is a terrorist organization, and Israel is not a democratic society. Is it a genocidal apartheid regime? No, Israel is not a democratic society. And by the way, it is the Israeli. Can I respond to it.

And for the record, and for the record, it is Israeli, it is Israeli press specifically. 972 is an Israeli outlet that reported on the fact that 83% of the casualties in Gaza are civilians. Just a second. Just a second. So this is Israel's one reporting that you are covering up for now. I heard you. I heard you. So you said at the very same.

sentence that Israel is a dictatorship in which there is no freedom of the press. And then you quote that 972, which is an Israeli. No, no, I did not say, let me finish. You're not listening to me. Just don't move words to my mouth. Fine, go on. For very, very long for your lives. Now I'll explain.

In Israel, unlike in dictatorships, people can report whatever they want because it's a free country, unlike Hamas in which, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in which if you report You're not listening to me. I did not use the word dictatorship. But I said apartheid regime. It's a democracy for Jewish Israelis and a dictatorship for Palestinians. That's very, very different. Millions of Palestinians live under a brutal military occupation with no rights under Israeli control.

Ask them about the part of the power. Can I respond? Can I? Yeah. The second class citizens. Yeah. If you all talk, no one. On my channel.

Can I come in? I've been waiting to come back in. Can I get him? Just one. Just one second. In Israel that you condemn so much on my channel, there are Muslim journalists who can report whatever they want in Israel, unlike in Gaza, had a Muslim correspondent from Israel would report it from Gaza, he would have been dead already. He would have been killed by Hamas.

But, Amet, in a way, in a way, in a way, you're basically endorsing what I'm saying. Because if you believe that all the journalists in Gaza are compromised, even more reason, even more reason to allow independent international journalists in to do their job. Right? You would agree. Would you agree? Why aren't the journalists being allowed in? Alexander. What possible reason could there be for banning international journalists from a war zone?

I'll give you. From a war zone, there's no longer a war zone. I'll give you my explanation. Had Israel wanted to prevent the world from knowing about the genocidal acts of Israel in Gaza, in the Gaza street. by the way, the only genocide in the world's history in which the population grows rather than declines. But had he wanted, why wouldn't he... That's a lie. Why wouldn't have he shut down the Internet in Gaza?

It's the easiest thing to do. If we're so genocidal... Actually, no, Amit, the point is... Amit, the pipeline and electricity... Why don't we have... The point is the easiest... Amit, the easiest thing to do, I promise you, is just let the journalists in,

given there's now a so-called sea fire. Let them know. And by the way, all the security, safety, risk, whatever, that will be on the networks and the organizations who send their journalists in, as it is in every war zone in the world. To me, to me, the longer this ban goes, the longer this ban, hang on, hang on.

All right, can I come back in or not. You don't all speak your once because we can't hear. Let me finish my point. All right, can I come in? You can, but just to make my point to finish it, the longer the ban goes on, the more convinced I become that the IDF and the Israeli government

has something to hide. The easiest way for them to prove they have nothing to hide is lift the ban. And the longer they don't do it, and even Jonathan has agreed with me about this, there's no legitimate reason to do it. Let me have his say now.

Can I freaking speak? Let me have a say. All right, thank you. A lot's been said. That's very, very, most patient I've ever been in my life. Lots of been said by Jonathan and Amit there. Jonathan talked about two million Arabs in Israel.

We've just seen Arab leaders being banned from running for the Knesset right now. So maybe that's not a card they want to play. Amit Segal. Amit Segal just said that you can say whatever. Amit Segal just said you can say whatever you want it isn't. Someone tried to ban them for running. Neither of them are going to let me speak. Amit Seagal.

You are interrupting. Jonathan, you spoke for like 20 minutes. You're saying falsehood. You're a hypocrite. Jonathan, you're a hypocrite. Jonathan, you're a liar at a hypocrite, Jonathan. You're interrupting him. As usual. You're interrupting.

Everyone on YouTube. Everyone on YouTube. Rewind. And fairness to Jonathan, stopping about being interrupted. Because hearing him speak is devastating to the point. He complained about being interrupted. We just saw him interrupt me as soon as I spoke.

Amit Segal said you can say whatever you want in Israel. Number one, not true. The military censor prevents many stories. He knows this. He's a journalist. Don't lie and say you can say whatever he wants in Israel. There's a military sensor. Madi, I have a scoop for you.

If you support terror in the United States of America or in the United Kingdom, that's not what the military sensor does. You will be imprisoned. You'll be imprisoned. So don't. Nice try. The military sensor in Israel. I know you support.

I know you support terror. The military sensor in Israel. That's why you haven't bothered to condemn the attack on. Piz. I'm going to get a chance to speak in this show. I do think you should let Medi finish his point. Otherwise, all the complaints are you right. I waited 25 minutes to speak on this panel.

Piers, this is why I don't do panels on your show. I waited 25 minutes speak. Now these two Israelis are not letting me speak. Amit Segal mocked my safety. Talked for 20 minutes. Yeah, my safety. My safety is fine. After your grand standard for half an hour.

Oh, my fucking. Piers, am I going to get to speak? You're going to moderate? What's the point of this? Yes. I think you should speak. And I think Jonathan and Amit, you should abide by your own pleas. Try for a minute not to lie, Mejdi.

Try for a minute. Just do that mess on your life. Well, let me see how about it. All your lies. Not to lie. Jonathan, don't interrupt him if you don't want to be interrupted. It's very straightforward. I know it's a challenge for you, Mechdi, but at least, you know,

try my challenge for you just a minute. Don't interrupt him. You're big on interruptions and you keep doing it yourself. Let him finish his point. When you live in an apartheid regime, it's hard to hear Arabs or Muslims speak. It's very uncomfortable. Let me finish his point. They are.

I just want to make some factual points. Number one, there's a military censor in Israel. You can't say whatever you want. Number two, Amit Siegel said you can say whatever you want, but then you can ban Arab politicians if they exercise their free speech. And here's what's really interesting. They keep going on about numbers of terrorists killed. Well, I watched the film Naza, which hasn't come up in this conversation,

and you hear Israeli soldiers saying, and I quote, an Israeli soldier says, we killed 140 unarmed people in Gaza, and we called every single one of them a terrorist. That is the truth that they don't want said on international media, which is the people they kill and call. terrorists were not terrorists in many, many cases. In some cases, sure. But in many cases, there's a free fire zone. It's what's called an annihilation zone in the film Naza by Israeli soldiers who say we were allowed to kill anyone. We hacked the phone of a 12-year-old girl, then we killed her.

We killed a boy with a drone because he crossed an invisible line and then we left his body for dogs to eat. This is what Israeli soldiers, Jonathan's former colleagues say. And as for Amit working at IDF radio, my criticism is not that he wasn't critical. I'm sure he was critical of the government. My point is that when Amit worked to IDF radio, if Hamas had killed him, I would have condemned Hamas for killing him because you can't kill journalists, even if they're working as propagandists. I'm not sure. Medi, I'll tell you why. This first of I, well, I don't support the killing of civilians. You do. I haven't finished my point. No, no, no, no. I'll let you come back in when I finish. No, no, I'm finishing my point.

My point is that I don't support killing you when you're in IDF propaganda. There's no free speech in Israel that stop pretending. And Jonathan talks about the killing of terrorists, his numbers that he gets from his sources. He doesn't want to engage with the fact that Israelis are saying, we kill people and call them terrorists. Last point, Jonathan said he went through the files. Here it is. Here's Hassan, Mazuk, Sumar. It says he's a Hamas operative, Jonathan.

Can you tell us where's the evidence for that? Because this is all the IDF provided. I challenge you today. Give me the evidence that this is based on because the IDF didn't give it. Jonathan, I'd be happy to. I'd be happy to. And, you know, it's your level of hypocrisy.

It's amazing. And I think you wouldn't have shed a tear over Amit, had he been targeted by... To the question, Jonathan. Where's the evidence in this file that you bragged about? I will do so in my own time, Mr. Mejde. Keep filibustering. No, I will do so in my own time. And just like you haven't shed a tear for Israeli civilians murdered by Hamas, by the way, we're commemorating. You're lying. Just yesterday. Just yesterday, I posted about Israeli civilians, you liar.

Just yesterday, you liar, I posted about Israeli civilians. You've never posted about Palestinians because you probably killed them when you were in the IDF. You probably had to kill civilians. You're probably the only person on this panel. that kill people. You were in the IDF, a genocidal minister. I'm the only person perhaps who represented a military and who maybe fought for his country. A military that lies when they kill people and then say produce no evidence whatsoever. Where's the evidence?

I don't know what you stand for. Actually, I think I believe I know what you stand for. Keep filibustering. We'll leave that first thing. Now, many, you mustn't interrupt. Yes. Jonathan, speak without being interrupted. that would be nice and especially after your dialogue of almost half an hour in the beginning and then you cry about not

getting air time after that's so typical that's not my fault the IDF didn't show up that's not my fault your fellow the only reason the only reason Jonathan to be clear that Medi was on his own at the start is he was supposed to be on with a member of the IDF the IDF

the IDF said all day they were going to put somebody up and in the end the IDF didn't show up I wonder why that is that's too bad right That's too bad. But I'll answer why they have no evidence. And maybe he got more airtime because the IDF bottled it.

Well, I think he got more airtime because that's what you're going to get across, Pierce. That's what you want to say. I invited the IDF to come on and defend what they said about me and Medi and the others. They said they were going to put somebody up and then they didn't. Viewers control their own conclusions, but to then accuse us of being biased towards meddy when the IDA don't show up and bail. is actually inaccurate.

It's supposed to be a debate between the two of them. If I had been the spokesperson, I would have gladly come on the show in the beginning. You always do come on and I credit you for it. But let's not pretend. Let's not pretend. Let me answer the idea of the start. Where's the evidence to start? Let me answer the question.

Let me answer the question. So there are various sources of information and what the IDF did when they compiled this list, which I think probably should have been done better. And they probably should have taken the direct list of CP. and then cross-checked each and every name. And maybe they will still do that. And maybe they'll get more information. And what I tweeted about was that this is an initial list.

And just like the CPJ first were forced to take off seven and then an additional 21. And now they will be forced to take off an additional 70 or 50 or 30 or how many they will ever seem. Where's the evidence? Yes, they will. They will. And they will eventually take off more and more names.

I'm waiting. Everyone's watching that you're not. I'm not answering the question. Where's the evidence that Hassan Samoa is a Habas-Obriv? I don't see the evidence. If he is, tell me. And I'm explaining and I'm explaining and you keep on answering the question. You're philobasuring Jonathan. And I'll explain some of the sources of the information that the IDF used. One is open source intel obituaries and information that is out there, mostly from Hamas and Islamic jihad. Two is other Palestinians. But that doesn't apply to this guy. Three, nice try. I'm giving you an example of a guy who doesn't have an obit.

For the first time in this, no pictures. No intel source is nothing. Saying something that is correct, Mehti. For the first time you say something that is fact-checked and correct. And the reason that the IDF hasn't disclosed all of the sources about all of the terrorists masquerading as press in the 190, is that in about 70 of them, the sources of information are still confidential. Just like we don't, the IDF doesn't say what the source is when they target a Hamas terrorist and they don't say how they know. Trust me.

No. I think the thing, to me, Jonathan, to me, Jonathan. Let me, we kill Shirin Abuakli. And we lie. Let me tell you this. Honestly, guys, the most interesting, the most interesting admission I've heard from you, Jonathan, probably the entire time you've been on this show, which is many times, is that you talking about you spoke to your Hamas sources.

Who are these people that you're hanging out with? Yes. I said I looked at Hamas information. No, you said you spoke to your Hamas sources. I can play you a tape if you like. Cases from Hamas. information from Hamas, not a person source, but sources from Hamas. Information that was source from Hamas.

So when you said you spoke to Hamas sources, you didn't mean you spoke to Hamas sources. You didn't mean you spoke to Hamas source. No, from the official telegram channel of Hamas where they issue their obituaries, where they also informed the people, the public in Gaza, who they're paying stipends to. You didn't mean that. Hamas sources is Hamas spokespeople and it is Hamas officers. So just to be clear, when you said, when you said you'd spoken, okay, But when you said you'd spoken to Hamas sources,

you're now retracting that statement. No, I didn't say I'm speaking to Hamas sources. I said I'm using Hamas sources as in their obituaries, as in the stipends that they pay to widows. Which I, by the way, think is an excellent, excellent source of information to really verify who the true personality. Okay. Where's the evidence?

We're running a lot of time. Hang on. I do want to ask Jonathan very quickly. I want to ask the whole panel about this hijacking, but I'll start with you, Jonathan, because what's extraordinary about this is that the Mossad has a reputation as the finest intelligence operation in the world.

By common consent, it's able to blow up 3,000 Hezbollah pages in one moment. It's able to track traffic lights to kill the Ayatollah of Iran and so on. And yet it didn't know anything about October the 7th, despite Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of the country, being warned by several leaders in the run-up to October 7th that a major Hamas operation was going to be happening.

And now we have this extraordinary situation where an Amani pilot who had been banned by his own country from flying planes, apparently is able to fly this plane and very, very nearly crash it into Ben Huron Airport. And again, I'm just wondering, how on earth is this guy who's, being described as a lone wolf extremist, how on earth has he got through any kind of vetting?

What is happening to Israeli intelligence? Yeah, so there's a relatively sad, very sad, relatively simple answer. The responsibility for Gaza has nothing to do with Mossad. That is entirely ISA, Shabak. And most of the security, as in screening, physical security, baggage security, and in-air security for incoming flights, whether they are Israeli or some of the screening for foreign flights coming into Israel, also lies with the ISA and doesn't lie with Mossad. Mossad has a certain responsibility for screening, and they definitely, in my opinion, so far,

as far as we understand now, dropped the ball, as did the Ministry of Transport and as did the ISA. The blame here, I think, has a lot of fathers and parents, and I think a lot of heads should be rolling in Israeli defense for the fact that a radical Islamist, someone who has pretty easy we could see in hindsight that he was another Islamist radical, he wanted to use violence in order to kill innocent civilians, like so many other radical Muslims around the world. Not all, Mejdi, but many radical Muslims around the world who make up just about a billion and a half or so people. And the fact that he wasn't flagged is a huge oversight.

Now, to go from there and to say conspiracy and all the usual nonsense, the only surprise I have is that it took the usual suspects in the symphony of Israel blamers and conspiracy theorists. It took them quite a long time to come up with the theory. Obviously, I'm not subscribing to any of those conspiracy theories. Unfortunately, we now live in an age, and Omar, I bring you in here. We live in an age where the moment anything now happens, Social media lights up with conspiracy theories who just spin absolute clap trap about what may have happened.

It's very damaging, I think, to society. A lot of people believe this crap. You know, for more, I prefer proper, legitimate reporting, which is ironically or because why I want journalists to operate freely in Gaza, actually, because I prefer top world-class, highly trained, independent journalists to operate to get to the truth of these things. But it's increasingly clear that this Amani National, Hamam al-Hamami was a lone wolf extremist,

who wounded the Indian captain with the emergency crash axe. Incredibly, the captain managed to, despite his serious injuries, managed to release the door, which is obviously since 9-11, all these doors are impregnable unless the captain does that,

and others were able to get in. And even more incredibly, the first one through is a plumber, an Israeli plumber with zero flying experience, who'd learn anything about planes from watching YouTube shows about planes and crashes and flying, which is incredible, but appears to be what happened. And then there were obviously reserved pilot and co-pilot on board

who then were able to take charge once he had actually wrestled the plane back into control. So that guy's an absolute hero, the captain's an absolute hero. But the real scandal here, as Jonathan has conceded, is this extraordinary failure of intelligence, where you've got a guy banned by his own country. from flying planes, but there he's able to fly on this route multiple, multiple times. And it's actually been to Israel, according to one report, a few days before he attempted to crash his aircraft. I mean, this is just unbelievable to me, given all the threats which would

be coming Israel's way. Yeah, part of the distrust that you see and why social media lights up with conspiracy theories has to do with the fact that the Israeli government lies relentlessly, with the latest revelation being that Netanyahu had been warned about October 7th immediately before by the UAE president, and he's denied it, and then more news comes out in Israeli press and the New York Times confirming that that actually had happened, and that's why people's brains immediately jumped to the possibility of somebody knowing something. In this case, Netanyahu had warned about Israel being attacked. You've got the series of events. I personally take it at face value. I'm not a conspiracy theorist on this one in particular, as suspicious

as the circumstances are, but we should remember the fact that Netanyahu, in the aftermath of 9-11, when asked about it, said it was a good thing because it puts it. puts America on the side of Israel more aggressively, as Israel pursues its battle in the region as being somehow the spearhead of the battle against terrorism or whatever else. So you are dealing in Netanyahu with somebody who just absolutely does not give a damn

about the human cost of anything and looks at it purely, politically on what is beneficial to him. And that's why we see him sharing details about this that even Trump is so unsure about, that he's repeating it and saying, I don't know if it's true or not. That's just what Netanyahu told me. I mean, we can see that what Netanyahu is doing right here

trying to capitalize on this incident to shore up as much support as possible. Now, just one quick thing, Pierce, just want to note that Jonathan had just mentioned. We are running at a time. I just want to be clear. I would be remiss to not mention. Jonathan had mentioned about the numbers that came out and whether you can trust them or not. The fact that the Israeli military itself, right,

when they report on the numbers that they give about civilian casualties, they are telling you, these are sources that are coming out through Israel. media that are telling you the fact that the majority of people who are being murdered are in fact civilians and you have it both ways here where the very people including the naza documentary by the way these are people that is trying to strip the citizenship away from on account of the fact that they are disclosing details that nobody wants to disclose so you can't have it both ways if they are revealing secrets worthy of the fact that they are going to take their citizenship away then you can't also turn around and say what they're saying is not true it is obviously true that there's

disclosing details that the israeli government is deep stay uncomfortable with. Okay. Guys, just to be clear, we've literally got a couple of minutes left, literally tops. Amit hasn't spoken. I want a very quick response from Amit to the hijacking story. And this apparently- Just to wrap up the last lunatic argument, Israel is to be blamed for killing

Ghazans, for genociding Palestinians, and Israel is to be blamed for an attempt to hijack and crush in a- Nobody has said that. Let me finish. Thank you so much. and to crush a plane into this because you haven't paid a single sentence to condemn this attempt to hijack a plane, an emirati plane, and to crush it on hundreds of people. Of course, everybody condemns it. That goes about saying. You know what? Because you spread conspiracies and you say, no, I do not spread. I'm not spreading conspiracies.

But one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. And then you just somehow create the impression that, you know, the scent of the fragrance, the filthy fragrance. named conspiracy, claiming that Netanyahu doesn't care about human lives. What the hell? Do you think Netanyahu cares about human life? Is this a real argument you're making? Let me give you. The bottom line with Netanyahu, the bottom line with Netanyahu, I've got to say, is there are a lot of unanswered questions now about what he didn't and didn't get told

in the run up to October the 7th. And it is increasingly clear he was given direct. Even Hillary Clinton is asking the question. There was going to be a mass attack. Medi, final word to Medi about the hijacking, please. Just one second. I hope that the last wars by Medi Hassan would be finally a first condemnation for trying to hijack and kill 170.

Okay, well, let me ask Medi. Hold on. By a fundamentalist. Let me ask Medi. Let me ask Medi that very question. Medi, do you condemn what this Amani pilot? First of all, first of all, first of all, first of all, first of all, first of every human being, normal human being condemns crimes, right?

The idea that I should condemn it. Why? Because I'm a Muslim. You should condemn it. I didn't hear you condemn. No, you didn't say a war. I didn't hear you, I didn't hear you condemn the hijacking. Amit, do you support hijacking? I condemn the killing of all civilians.

You refused to support the killing. Do you condemn the killing of Palestinians? You have a Twitter account, a very accurate one from what I heard, yet you haven't bothered to tweet a single thing, a single donation. Why? Because it doesn't fit. By the way. By the way.

It doesn't fit your perception as Israel. of the most evil force on earth that can do no right and Muslims can do no wrong. No, no, Israel, hold on. Piers, I need to respond to that accusation. Admit it, you had a chance. The problem that Amir and Jonathan have is they want me to be this straw man they can argue against. I spent three years condemning civilian casualties, as has Omar, as has peers. Only as the people on this panel, only as the lip service to do not condemn the killing of civilians.

Well, I've done lips. You haven't even done that. Well, I would like to end, okay, but I would, hang on, I would like the killing of Palestinians. They won't condemn the killing of Palestinians. I would like to end. Go ahead. Do you condemn the killing of journalists that Jonathan can defend? I would like to end by unreservedly.

I would like to end. I would like to end. If P.S. I would like to end by unreservedly condemning all of you who spent most of this panel interrupting with the exception of Omar. Thank you Omar. The rest of you, learn some manners when you debate each other. I'll appreciate you all coming on.

Thank you very much. Well, you should moderate better, Pierce. I have to admit, Paris, that my late British gun mother wouldn't appreciate this volume. But okay, next time. I appreciate all of your thoughts about my work. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Well, in a moment, we'll get the expert analysis of Captain Steve, but first joining me is Daniel Schlichter, who was on the fly-diby-flight, and which

witnessed the hijack. Mr. Sliota, thank you so much indeed for joining me. First of all, how are you? It's a pleasure of views. It must have been an unbelievably traumatic experience. How are you doing in the aftermath? First of all, let me just say one sentence before I start. I overheard the panel and I was overwhelmed by the rubbish spoken about Israel and the IDF by the non-Israeli two gentlemen.

and I think IDF is the most human army in the world, and I wish all the armies would be so human as them. So thank you, Pierce. I'm glad to be here. So I was sitting on the second row of the airplane, and I was involved in all the action that was going on. The lady next to me with her daughter came in to the toilet, and she came back to the passenger area screaming,

somebody stopping the pilot. So immediately after that I could hear a violent fight coming from the cockpit area, which was something very strange to hear from. I was very surprised. And immediately after that, the plane started to go down very deeply. A few seconds after that, the first Israeli Yaniv came and took out of the cockpit and pushed out the terrorist. and was screaming, help me, help me. Following that, two additional Israelis, Asaf and Zvika, arrived immediately, jumped out and started to fight this terrorist and get also the pilot, the Indian pilot,

who was incredibly brave by being stabbed and at the same time reaching the handle and being able to open it and pushing the terrorist out. So the three heroes, Israeli heroes, pushed the terrorists out and were fighting. He was resisting strongly, and it took them more than two minutes to getting on the ground. Me sitting on the second row, I couldn't join because, of course, there was no space there. So I took a few sets of headphones from the business class and gave to one of the guys in order to them to be able to tie him up on the hands. on the feet. Immediately after that, following that, the fourth guy, Dr. Shuta, came in and

he started taking care of the Indian pilot, which was bleeding, and there was blood all over the place, and it was crazy. In the airplane, there was a chaos everywhere. Children were shouting. We don't want to die. We don't want to die. The mothers were shouting and trying to count them and it was a really horrific situation. At this time, there were two additional pilots, thank God, that I should have taken the plane back at the end of the flight back from Tel Aviv to Dubai. And one of them at least, because the other one was in total shock, the one of them just jump above the three guys and the doctor in order to reach the cockpit.

cockpit, you have to understand the plane was going down fast and quickly. I could see from my window, the desert and the ground coming down. This was about one minute going down. And all this time, these guys were fighting. The doctor was taking care of the Indian pilot and the extra first pilot, I think it was from Fiji, but I'm not sure, New Zealand maybe, he was jumping above them and reaching the handle. He couldn't sit on the seat of the cockpit.

He had to just jump and reach with his hands the stabilizing handles. And at the end, he managed to somehow reach the seat. The second pilot, after that, joined him after we yelled at him to do something and join the first pilot. And they closed the door behind them. So after that, we started stabilizing the airplane. The people were still scared and there was a lot of chaos inside it. And one of the flight attendant, which is something that is not clear until now to nobody, came to the cockpit area where the three guys were handling the terrorists and said,

let him free, let him free. So when we heard that and the three Israeli guys yelled at us in Hebrew, take the flight attendants back to the back rows because we suspect them maybe to be cooperating with a terrorist. So that's what we did. A few of the guys back, we took the flight attendant and we explained to them that there's no space there and they have to be a little bit back. Afterwards, they helped out to bring the oxygen bottles and the oxygen mask. By the way, we gave the terrorist oxygen mask as well, not only the Indian pilots. Sorry, please.

No, no, you know what, I didn't want to interrupt you, Dana, because it was such a gripping account of what must have been an unbelievably terrifying experience. There's just two quick things I wanted to ask you. One, you know, when you discovered that the perpetrator here, the terrorist was an Imani pilot who had been banned from, flying in Amani but had not been tracked or traced by any of the Israeli authorities. What was your reaction to that? Well, as I said, after I went down the airplane and we were all safe, this is something I don't

know exactly, but I'm sure of one thing. This whole horrific incident has to be further investigated by the Emirates, together with Israeli, the Saudis, and they have to give answers to many, many people. First of all, to the passengers, first of all to the pilots flying hundreds of millions of people every day. And it cannot be that there will be no answers and full investigation by both all parties, Israeli parties, the Emirates parties, investigating it very deeply and getting their answers what exactly happened there.

Obviously, there have been a lot of security bridge and a lot of mistakes, but we want to look forward and learn for the mistakes. So I think we have to leave all the parties to investigate it until the end and get the answers. Yeah, you're right, Daniel. The other breaking news, as we've been talking, is CBS News and America is reporting that Israel was prepared to shoot down the fly Dubai plane after the captain was attacked, even with 150 Israelis on board. That's according to its Israeli sources.

What do you feel about that? I know that there is a procedure that also the United States has it after the 9-11. By the way, going down with the airplane, this is the first thought that I had in my mind. 9-11, burden is in mind. I think that the U.S. and Israel, I don't know about other countries, I think they have a protocol, emergency protocol, that if any airplane is reaching, Israel or United States half an hour

or 20 minutes and is not giving certain codes or certain protocols spoken then they have to take down the airplane. I'm not sure if it's exactly like that or not. But

I cannot even imagine what would happen if they had to take down the airplane. But this is maybe the fifth miracle. out of the four that were before. The Indian pilots, the three guys,

the two additional pilots that were there, and that we are safe. So maybe this is the fifth miracle, but I really don't want to think what would happen if they would have to take us down, but I think that we have to look to be optimist as we all try to be during this horrific incident and leave this terrible scenario,

to other movies or other imaginary documentaries. Daniel, you must feel very lucky to be alive. What was the first thing you did when you got home? Well, actually, all my family was waiting in the airport. You have to understand that they had horrific long hours, not knowing what is going on. And only when we reach Tabuk, Saudi, we were able to log in to Issyms and get them answers.

And they were really crying. And it's the most happy minute of my life, seeing my family again, and being able to continue my life and enjoy my family. And we just have to wake up in the morning and look at the sun and say thank you for each day that we have. That's wonderful words, Daniel. I'm very glad to see you alive and well, having survived what is everyone's nightmare.

Thank you very much indeed for joining me. Thank you, Pris. Thank you. Well, joining me now with his perspective on the hijacking is Captain Steve Scheidner, the aviation expert and a former commercial pilot. Captain Steve, welcome back to Unsensor. This is a really extraordinary story and retold very compellingly there by one of the passengers who was in the second row. You know, we've now heard a lot more information coming out about all this.

What are the things that most strike you about this hijacking? It's what strikes me most about this is its similarities to the 9-11 style hijackings, except it took place from within the cockpit, not outside the cockpit. That's one differentiation. The other is the decency of human beings. Now, in the midst of unspeakable evil up in the cockpit, I'm going to refer to the co-pilot as evil for the rest of this conversation because he was. in the midst of it, everybody rose to the occasion and did what they were good at to turn this whole thing around and have an incredibly good outcome of it.

I'm blown away by all the firsthand reports. This guy's report, I interviewed a passenger on the day after about what happened. He corroborated everything your guest just said about what happened in that airplane. It's absolutely shocking that they saved that airplane, but everybody did the right thing at the right time. because they had to. The most shocking thing to me is that this guy, this co-pilot, was banned from flying in his own country, Amman, and yet somehow has slipped through the net here to not only do this run many times, but to actually go to Israel a few days before this. He had this all worked out and planned. It appears to be that he was a lone wolf extremist, who'd been radicalized.

But are you, I mean, it just seems unfathomable that after 9-11, someone who's been banned by his own country from flying a plane is anywhere near a cockpit. Are you as aghast as I am? Yes, I absolutely am. If the system can fail you, it will. And so the vetting system over there, fly Dubai's vetting system, let everybody down in the worst possible way. This guy should have never been anywhere near an airplane, period. apparently the airline he worked for before banned him from flying, but didn't communicate that or it wasn't transmitted to fly Dubai

when he got another job. And he didn't get, I don't know, he didn't get vetted out anywhere along the line. My understanding is he should have been, and this guy, again, should have never been anywhere near the controls of a commercial jet. One thing that was extraordinary, of course, was that the pilot, despite being very badly injured in the attack, still have the presence of mind and the ability to open the door from the cockpit side.

Now, again, as a consequence of 9-11, my understanding is they've made these doors to the cockpit pretty impregnable to get in from the passenger side. But it's quite easy from the pilot's side if you just press a knob, but you've got to obviously be physically able to do that. So they were very fortunate, I guess, that this pilot still had the presence of mind

and ability to do that. Yeah. Captain Schmidt is an absolute hero. He's the first hero amongst many on that flight. He had the presence of mind while he's fighting for his life, by the way, being attacked with the crash axe in the airplane to reach back. Now, the 737 cockpit's kind of small, so he can reach back. If he leans all the way back and stretches, he can just turn the doorknob.

It's like any other door. You just turn the doorknob. The door will open, but it opens in, not out. So it opened up enough so that lady that was with her daughter at the front toilet, saw what was going on in the cockpit, saw the blood, saw the melee, heard the screaming. She screamed, her husband jumped up to her assistance, and then everybody else rushed forward. So the paradigm you saw taking place here on this flight was what changed after 9-11. Prior to 9-11, we were all kind of trained as passengers to be passive, let the authorities handle it,

and assist if you were called on. That all changed after September 11, 2001. The passengers now are going to commandeer and take over that aircraft, even if it's one of the pilots. Yeah. And so they worked through that rather quickly, pulled out the captain and started getting him medical attention while they're fighting with the co-pilot at the same time

at this airplane is in a steep dive. All of this is absolutely amazing. And there's one more thing that I'm reporting on, and some others that I trust have been reporting on now. And it seems as though both engines were not operating while they were in the midst of this dive. And we're reporting on that because the emergency evacuation lights on the inside of the airplane illuminated. And there's only one way for those lights to illuminate in flight. And that's that both engines are not operating.

So not only was it a miracle that the off-duty pilots that got into the cockpit saved the airplane from the dive, they had the further issue of having to relight the engines while they were in the midst of, to that melee, absolutely incredible. And also there's this Israeli plumber who only knew about planes from what he watched on YouTube, it seems, but was able to run in and pull it out of his dive before the reserve pilots got into the cockpit.

I mean, how amazing was that? That's absolutely amazing. But you know what? Necessity is the mother of invention, correct? And so he's probably watched a few of these TV shows where somebody was in a dive into the passenger. pulled an airplane out and all you got to do is pull back and if you pull back the houses get bigger right and so he did and the airplane leveled out enough so that the pilot that was now according to the

guy that you just interviewed was basically catapulting over everybody in this melee to get into the cockpit and continue to do it you got to do it just right or you're really going to overstress the airplane clearly there was an overstress situation because part of the rudder came off the aircraft But not so much of an overstress that the airplane was not flyable going forward. I mean, as you said, Captain Steve, you've got the villain, the evil co-pilot trying to perpetrate mass murder. But then you have a series of heroes, you know, the Indian pilot, the Israeli plumber, the reserve pilots, the woman and the child who saw what was happening, who alerted people and so on. If any one of those people hadn't done what they'd done, this would have probably ended. in complete catastrophe and the deaths of over 150 people.

It is a true miracle. And as you say, highly unlikely to have probably played out the way it did, had it not been for 9-11, and passengers now understanding that when there's something like this happening, you've got to do something. Yeah, you absolutely have to do something. And the gentleman I interviewed a couple days ago said, we didn't trust the rest of the crew.

And rightly so. People wearing uniforms with stripes, let them down. So I guess one of the flight attendants now was kind of saying sympathetic with the co-pilot. At that point, the passengers organized and said, he told me that they assigned two people to each one of the cabin crew members to escort them back to their seat and keep an eye on them for the entire flight. So was this a mutiny? I don't know. They commandeered the flight. The passengers did for sure while the authorities now sorted it out on the ground and they decided where they were going to go.

The guy that you just interviewed talked about the Israeli jets launching on the airplane. Yeah. And that's a secondary issue now that you've got to worry about because their protocol is to find out and to eliminate the threat as quickly as possible. So the replacement pilots got into the cockpit. They dialed in 7,700 in the transponder code. They left it there for 60 seconds. And then they switched it to 7500, which is the international code that we've been hijacked.

The threat hasn't been eliminated yet because as soon as those fighter jets show up, they're going to want to know who's in control of that airplane. So if I'm in that cockpit and I'm a good guy at that point, I'm on the radio yelling as loud as I can, we got it, we got it, we got it, we got it, we're in control of the airplane. The bad guys are tied up in the back. Trust me, you know, look at me in the window, see I'm a good guy, here I am, you know. And I'm sure that they did all of that to communicate to those fighter jets.

Don't, don't shoot us down. Just escort us to the airport and it will be fine. But to be clear, if they don't give the right codes or can't communicate, that everything is secure in a way that the authorities believe, the protocol now, according to the passenger, you will know this, is the protocol now that those fighter jets would have shot the plane down? Yep, they're going to intercept the aircraft.

They're going to assess the situation. If they think it's a threat to people on the ground, they've got protocols in place. I'm sure they're going to check first before they do that, because an airplane, even at 15,000 feet, isn't a threat to anybody in the next few minutes. they've got, they're going to talk to some folks and verify that, but if they get the green light, it's going to be weapons away because there's people on the ground that, again,

they don't know that there's a threat in the air above them. Yeah, absolutely amazing. What an astonishing story, an astonishing escape. Captain Steve, always great to have you on, particularly for a story like this. Thank you very much. My pleasure. Pierce Morgan-on-Sense that is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Unsensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

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