Piers Morgan Uncensored - Trump Bans Trans Athletes | Riley Gaines vs Blossom + Lord Coe

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

One of Donald Trump’s most popular policies since being reinstated in the White House has been his recent banning of transgender athletes from women’s sports. There really hasn’t been any concerted orchestrated pushback from the Democratic Party, but individual left-wing activists are enraged. To them, President Trump isn’t protecting women, but excluding them from the opportunity to earnestly compete. While Piers Morgan, like a lot of people, doesn’t agree with this line of reasoning, he does believe in debate. So tonight, Uncensored fans are treated to a ferocious match-up that sees Piers and champion swimmer Riley Gaines take on vocal trans activist Blossom C. Brown. After furiously defending his position to Blossom, Piers turns to runner and IOC Presidential hopeful Lord Sebastian Coe, for a formal explanation of his expert point of view. Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: American Hartford Gold: Protect your wealth with precious metals! Call American Hartford Gold today & get up to $15,000 in free silver on your 1st order! Call 866-692-2474 or Text PIERS to 65532, or Click the link below: https://offers.americanhartfordgold.com/piers-morgan/ This paid promotion should not be construed as providing legal, tax, investment, financial, or other advice. ExpressVPN: Go to https://expressvpn.com/PIERS and find out how you can get 4 months of ExpressVPN free! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I think Donald Trump should stop booty clapping to Elon Musk and actually get something done in this country. And eradicating trans people is not going to be it. We all felt betrayed. We all felt violated in the locker room. Riley is just a tremendous athlete and it was a very unfair situation. To have a president who is willing to listen to us, feel entirely vindicated. There are only two genders, male and female. Donald Trump is a complete moron.

Trans people exist. There are more than two sexes. Blossom, should we combine the Paralympics with the regular Olympics? How do them all compete with each other? We talk about trans people. We're talking about gender identity. I need both of y'all mindset to become more expansive. Right. I know that's a little hard for both of you.

Can you answer my question? I think what you're saying is conservative propaganda. Propaganda? Can you answer my question? I mean, why not? And to go back to Riley's point to that. Oh my gosh. You are completely insane.

Oh yeah. It takes one to no one. People like Blossom are exactly why Donald Trump won. For me, this is absolutely about the integrity of competition. It seems completely insane to me. When it comes to the biology of sport, it is very, very clear cut. President Trump has banned trans athletes from women's sport, with the Olympic Games heading for Los Angeles, comply or defy.

Ladies, we'll bring in my exclusive interview with Lord Sebastian Coe, who could be the next Olympics president and effectively the top boss in world sport. He knows all about Olympics because he was an Olympic champion himself. But we'll begin with this. It will henceforth be the official policy of the United States government that there are only two genders, male and female. But all of that ends today because with this executive order, the war on women's sports is over.

Well, the New York Times calls it's a shameful campaign against transgender Americans, while NPR warns of extremism with chilling echoes in history. Trump is facing a slew of legal champion. to the trans band, but so far it's getting results anyway. The NCAA, which enabled the whole Leah Thomas farce, has reversed a 15-year policy and will ban transgender women from women's sports. Athlete C.C. Telfer, a mediocre male runner who transitioned

to become a record-breaking female runner, said this. They would be smart and educated enough to know that something like that is not, that's not how history works, and that's not how the direction of progressiveness works, and you can't take back history. Well, I responded on X by calling the interview absurd, adding that she was born male, looks and speaks like a man, runs like a man, and is smashing women's record.

She's not a victim. She's a cheat. Well, athlete Riley gains that a chorus of conservative criticism, but also rebuke me for not referring to Telfer as he. Now, look, here's where I feel about this. I've got no problem with calling a trans woman. I only have a problem when I believe they are deliberately trying to erode women's rights to fairness, equality and safety. And I think that's my dividing line.

And so really, is it the hill to die on as to whether we call C.C. Telfer he or she? I don't think so. But Riley will explain herself when it comes to this. Others have pointed out that Cici Telfer has no respect for women whose sporting dreams she's. shattered. That's an interesting part of his debate too. And so sign of a massive cultural shift that using the wrong pronouns, previously a fully cancelable offence, is suddenly perfectly normal and no one's going to cancel for it. So has Trump's trans ban unleashed a new wave of misery for trans people everywhere, some claim, or is he simply restoring much nearly common sense

in a way that frankly most voters fully agree with? But joining me to debate all this is Blossom C. Brown, a transgender activist who sparred with Michael Knowles on Jubilee this week. Hi. Blossom. She or hers powerhouse. The Blossom Powerhouse. Lovely to meet you.

And the great Riley Gaines, who has been a fantastic trailblazer for safeguarding women's rights in all this is the host of Gaines for girls on Outkick. You had a front row seat, Riley, at the White House when the president signed that executive order, which was quite a moment. First of all, how did you feel being there for that moment in history, which you've campaigned so hard for? Well, thank you for Pierce for having me on. Always a joy to be on with you.

There was a lot of emotions. Of course, it's a bit bewildering that this is something that's necessary, that a sitting president has to take time out of his day, out of his busy day, to use his executive powers to declare, number one, that men and women are different, and then to further declare that men do not belong in women's sports. But nonetheless, it is necessary. I would argue that it was urgent. So this type of moral clarity and decisiveness is, I just feel vindicated. The past three years, me personally, and I know women who have been fighting much longer than I have, the past three years, it's been an uphill battle. Not only were we as women, as female athletes, I guess, in particular, not only were we ignored in stonewalled.

We were actually reprimanded if we dared to oppose this movement. If we dared to even question this movement, we as women were reprimanded. So to now to finally have a seat at the table. and to have a president who is willing to listen to us, I just feel grateful. I feel grateful for God's mercy that we don't deserve and I feel entirely vindicated here. And I think that visual quickly,

that visual of President Trump surrounded by all of these young girls, girls with dreams and aspirations and hopes for a future, I think that visual is one of the most iconic pictures that will come out of his administration. And that's saying a lot, considering this man has a mugshot. Yeah, I mean, the two images I'll be remembering from all that involving you, were you with Trump when that happened,

but also you being mobbed, literally in a vicious, horrible, threatening way by a gang of people wanting to cause you physically harm because you were standing up for women's rights, not least for safety, which seemed to me completely outrageous. Philosopher, I can see you making faces there. One question to start this debate with you. Why do we separate the sexes at the Olympics? You know, first of all, I want to say,

Shout out to C.C. Tofer. I've met her before. She is a magnificent person, and she is very bad ASS, and I love her to death. Let me say this. Don't talk is a complete war line. CC-Tover might be a fabulous person. Yes. I'm going to come later to why I think what she does is completely wrong. But just on the question I asked, why do we separate the sexes at the Olympics? If you actually, well, Pierce, if you actually let me get to it, because you let Riley have her talking points. actually have my talking point right now.

CC is definitely a wonderful person, and I think let's be clear, Donald Trump is a complete moron. Donald Trump talks so much about waste and fraud, and you're signing a whole executive order banning trans women from playing sports. According to the NCAA, there are over 510,000 athletes, and within those athletes, there are only less than 10 trans athletes. So you mean to tell me, Donald Trump signing an executive order for 0.002 of the population, when trans people are only 1%. That's a waste. That is a waste.

Trans people exist. There are more than two sexes. There are intersex people that exist. And I think that it's nothing more than conservative propaganda, that because Donald Trump is in power, he is able to use. I think Donald Trump should stop booty clapping to Elon Musk and actually get something done in this country. And eradicating trans people is not going to be it.

And I stand 10 toes down on that. Okay. I'll say very briefly, it's this argument that it's a small percentage of the population. I hope you realize it's not a one-to-one ratio. It's not for every one male that's participating in a woman's sport. It's one woman that's affected. In my sport, at our national championships, one male displaced 14,000 women. And I can speak for myself.

I can speak for my teammates. I can speak for 99% of other female competitors on that pool deck. We all felt betrayed. We all felt violated in the locker room. We all felt it was unfair, but not enough people. were courageous enough to say it because they were terrified. They were terrified of the name calling that you just pursued. Even, I mean, the first thing you say is Donald Trump is a moron.

What 20 year old girl wants to be called transphobic or any of the slurs that have been thrown my way? I can certainly attest to. You know, Riley, I think you're trying to, you know, Riley, I think you're just trying to make it seem like that trans people are a threat to cis women in the breastroom. And that's not the case. Trans women and cis women should be coming together. trans women are not a threat to...

Okay, but Blossom, Blossom. And I think that y'all have ran on that ideology. Y'all have ran on that ideology for a very long time. And you're going to have to specifically tell me cases. Blossom. Time out. Time out. Time out.

Time out. Women have hurt cis women in the restaurant. Blossom. I like to know that, please. Blossom. We don't use things like words like cis on here because no one understands it. Let's just... Well, I use cisgender, so that's where I come from.

That's what I like to use that in my vocabulary. Yeah, but nobody else understand. does it. Let's just stick to my question. My question for you, which you have, hang on, hang on, hang on, Blosson. You just don't have the intellectual capacity here. You don't have the intellectual capacity to understand. Sorry, Blossom, just to explain something. You're appearing on a show called Pierce Morgan uncensored. That means you can say whatever you want. I know all about you, Pierce. Okay. You can think what you're. And I know how you're good at race baiting. I know how you're good at being transphobic. And that's why I'm here to face you. Just to be clear, face you one-on-one.

When do you think I've ever race-baiting? Honey, you remember that whole incident with Sharon Osborne. Yes. Let's not forget. Oh, you know, I do. Oh, no, I do. But we're not here to talk about Ms. Sharon Osborne. No, no, no. What do you think happened there?

We're not here to talk about Ms. Sharon Osborne. Yes, what do you think? We're here talking about trans people in sports. Hang on, hang on, you've raised. You are notorious. Okay, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let's have a conversation.

Let's have a conversation. Let's talk about the Sharon Osborne thing. Let me tell you why, since you've raised it. You are notorious. Since you've raised it. I'm a black trans woman. Blossom, stop talking for a moment. And you have cut me off so many times since I've been here.

Okay. Blossom, can we have a conversation, please? You get the white girl all the time to talk. Can we have a conversation, please? And a black girl is having to speak. Actually, at the moment, the black girl is doing all the talking. So hang on, hang on. What in the world was that?

Did I just say something, please? That's my opinion. All right. That's my view. Blossom, stop talking. Support for today's show comes from a business focused on a critical issue. Prosperity. U.S. national debt is at Christ.

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All the details are in the description. Now on with the show. Let me just explain to you why what you've just said is complete and utter nonsense. I'm very glad you raised the Sharon Osborne thing, as you put it. Just to remind people and you and educate you about what happened. I was removed from my job hosting a morning show in Britain called Good Morning Britain because I disbelieved Meghan Markle's claims of racism against the royal family, okay? I never said a racist.

Hang on, hang on, let me finish. I never said a racist thing about anybody, least of all, Meghan Markle. I've never invoked her skin color. In fact, on the day she got married to Prince Harry, I wrote a front page story in a national newspaper in this country in which I stole the glorious moment. We finally had a biracial wedding in our otherwise all-white royal family. You might be bored, but I'm going to address your allegation. Okay, but hang on.

I haven't finished. I haven't finished. I haven't finished, Blossom. Let me finish. Let me just educate you. Let me just educate you with some facts. You've called me a race, baiter. You've called me a race.

Please stop talking. You've called me a race-bater. Allegedly. Hang on. Hang on. Right, so let me finish. So what happened then was Sharon Osborne, who was on a show called The Talk on CBS, now sadly no longer there because they got rid of Sharon.

And guess what? Nobody wanted to watch it. And Cheryl Underwood, a black woman on that panel, set up Sharon Osborne in the most despicable manner imaginable. And she said to Sharon Osborne, why did you support Pierce Morgan when he said those racist things? And Sharon Osbourne, hang on, you can respond when I finish telling you what happened. You can respond when I tell you what happened. Blossom, you can respond when I finished telling you what happened.

And you can challenge me on facts. What you can't challenge me is something you've seen on TikTok. So let me finish. So Sharon Osborne was told why did you. You know what's that on TikTok? It was all over the new here in America. Cheryl Underwood says, to Sharon Osborne.

We're here to talk about. Okay, if you're going to keep talking, I'll mute you. I will mute you, but don't let me mute you. Let me just finish. Then you can respond. Sherylonda was said, why did you support Pierce Morgan when he said those racist things? Sharon said, what racist things?

And as a result of that, by getting annoyed that she was being set up to try and supposedly defend her friend me in saying racist things I'd never said, Sharon got fired from the talk, and she was left suicidal in the year that followed that her whole career was sent down the drain because, ironically, the race baiter was actually the black woman on that panel, Cheryl Underwood, not Sharon Osborne, and not me. So I'm very glad you raised the issue of race baiting, but let's be clear, as you're doing now, the race baiting came from Cheryl Underwood to Sharon Osborne, and it's now coming from you. So let's, now you can respond.

Can I be racist, peers? Now you can respond. Black women cannot be racist to white women. Are you kidding me? Sorry? That makes no sense. Sorry. Black women cannot be racist to white women.

Do you not understand that? Oh, yes, they can. You don't have the intellectual capacity. Oh, yes, they can. to understand that. Oh, yes, they can. And you've been racist to me. That's very much impossible.

You've been racist to me a white man by saying I'm a race-bater. Yeah. How am I racist to you? I'm black. I can't be racist to you. You call me a race-bater with no evidence. When have I been a race-bater? You can be racist to me.

When have I been a race-bait? Tell me when I've been a race-bater. Well, you may be a powerhouse. You may be a powerhouse. You may be a powerhouse. Okay. When have I been a race-bait? I don't admit that.

When have I been a race baiter? Okay. When have I been a race baiter? Okay. This is absurd. No, hang on. Tell me, Blossom. Give me one example of me race baiting.

Blossom. Go. I'm here. At this point, I'm just here to talk about trans women in sports. I said what I said. So you don't have anything, do you? Repeat anything. You call me a race baiter, but you have no evidence I've ever race baited.

You admit it. Do you believe African Americans are superior to? Let's move forward. Fascinating. Like so many people, you put. play that race card and you can't defend it. You can't support it. There is no evidence.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me check you on that. Let me check you all that. You talk about this race card or whatnot. The race card is reality. My experience is a black trans woman. It's completely different than yours. Reality,

well, let me ask you about reality then. Do not interrupt a black trans woman when I'm speaking. Oh, don't be so pathetic. Do not interrupt a black trans woman when I'm speaking. Riley, this is with so much privilege as a white woman. So you can interrupt me for the last two. 10 minutes. So just to be clear, just to be clear, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.

Just to be clear, Blossom. All right, just can you meet Blossom for a moment, please? Thank you. You realize you're making old, hang on Riley, hang on Riley. Hang on Riley. So I'll make the point that Blossom has just literally interrupted me for 10 consecutive minutes without balsing breath. But the moment Riley has the audacity to interrupt a blossom. Oh, guess what?

That's the moment that the black transgender woman decides this. is outrageous. Okay, you can unmute her. This feels like an SNL. This feels like an S&L skit. It does. Okay. It's preposterous. I just want you to remember that Blossom said what she, her basis and perspective of life is rooted in reality. So please remember that as we continue this conversation. Which brings me to my question, which you have an answer, Blossom, which is why do we separate the sexes in the Olympics? Here's the thing. I'm not an Olympian. Oh. I don't play sport. You don't know why we separate sexes?

I think what you're saying is conservative propaganda. I think what you're saying is conservative propaganda. Conservative propaganda. I asked you why we separate. I asked you why we separate the sexes. Maybe frame it like this. Why do we separate the sexes? Again, when we talk about trans people, when we talk about trans people, we're talking about gender identity.

I need both of y'all mindset to become more expansive. I know that's a little hard for both of you. question. Because both of you have the reins of a peanut. I understand that's hard for both of y'all. Can you answer my question? Can you answer my question? Again.

Again, when we talk about trans people, we're talking about gender identity. We're not just focused on sex. That's not my question. What y'all like to do is reduce conversations down to sex. What you all like to do. And you try to apply it to what's happening in the Olympics. Okay. And I'm asking you a very, and I'm asking you.

Trans women shall participate in the Olympics, the next Olympics. And I think what you're doing is spreading misinformation. I don't want to have to mute you again. Conservative propaganda that should not be it. Okay. Piers Morgan, our censored is proudly independent. Our sponsors help us to bring it to you for free. Support for the show today comes from ExpressVPN,

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The next Olympics will be in America in Los Angeles. I'll ask you one more time. Why do we separate the sexes in the Olympics? Why do we have men and women competing separately? Give me an answer. Well, Pierce, won't you tell me the answer since I don't know? You don't know the answer?

Oh, Riley's got a hand up. Riley? I don't, Riley, why don't you educate Blossom? Why don't you educate the answers since I don't know? Riley, why do we separate the sexes in the Olympics? Because men and women are different. We have different physical ceilings. It's the same reason why you have any category.

It's the same reason why we have the Paralympics versus the Olympics. It's the same reason why we have weight classes in boxing. We don't have weight classes in boxing. because we are fat-shaming people who weigh more. No, we have weight classes because it would be unfair. We know the outcome. Every single person, kindergartners, know the outcome of what would happen if we had a 220-pound man fight 170-pound man.

It's the same reason why we have age divisions. We don't have 12 and unders or Pee-B leagues. What if that 120-pound? Wait, wait, what if that 170-pound man has the agility to beat that 220-pound man? That makes no sense. I'm so sorry. Your answer makes no sense. That makes no sense.

You all don't know anything about somebody's biochemistry. Somebody's biology, you do not know. You do not know, Riley. I'm sorry. You absolutely do not know about somebody's biology. You just admitted you're not an athlete. You've admitted that you have never competed at the highest level. I have.

I don't have to be an athlete to talk about this because this affects my community because you're not delisted. You know what we're going to try. Why don't we try? Okay. Can we please stop talking at the same time? If you talk at the same time, Blossom, if you talk at the same time, Blossom, if you talk, if you talk, Blossom, if you talk at the same time, nobody can hear either of you. Okay?

So Blossom, let's start with you again. A simple question. I'll tell you why they separate the sexes, just as Riley has. It's because men have a physical advantage over women, which would mean that women would not win more than a handful of medals in the entire Olympics. Would you be happy if it was a gender-neutral Olympics? Hang on. Answer my question. Answer my question.

Women are just as strong as men. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, women are just as strong as men. So just to be clear. Powerful as men. And I don't believe that. Okay, Blossom. That's just your opinion.

So Blossom. Blossom. If the world number one tennis player... I don't buy it. Okay. You know that Serena Williams admits that she would be beaten by the top thousand men in the world at tennis, right?

You know that. Do you? No, I did not. You did not know that. So you don't know that. Okay. So you don't know that. Can you show me the receipts?

Can you show you? I have the receipt right here. I would like to read those receipts. Both Serena and Venus Williams lost in a blow. Are you waving them around? What? You can look it up to the 200 third ranked male player. He drank in between sets, smoked in between sets and played 18 holes of golf before

and admitted that he played like a 600 male ranked player. And they lost in a blowout. And they are phenoms the best of the best. No other woman for a while even could come close to them, and they got beat by a man. Let me repeat it. In a blowout, the 203rd ranked male player who admitted he played like a 600 ranked player.

Frank spoke between sets and played 18 holes of golf before. Blossom. Blossom, just to be clear, would you want the American Olympics, the L.A. Olympics, would you want them to be gender neutral whether sexes compete with each other? Absolutely. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Okay. Do you also believe... It's completely insane. and non-binary people? Yes, why not? It's completely insane. This country was built on diversity, equity, and inclusion. Exactly.

This is why that's so nuts. That does include that does include cis women like right. And you know what you would do? You would exclude all women from winning medals. Well done. That's not true. That is not true. Can we talk about Leah Thomas?

Now, I bring up Leah Thomas because Riley knows her very well. I bring up Leah Thomas because the reality is, yes, she won some games, but Leah also lost some games to cis women. So there are some cis women who are faster than Leah. There are some cis women who are stronger than Leah. And again, when we talk about genetics, there are some cis women that have natural, higher testosterone levels than trans women. That's why some of them may look more masculine. Imman Khalif had to experience that transphobia, which, by the way, transphobic. Which, by the way, transphobia affects all women.

And now that Trump has excluded trans women from playing in sports, all women are going to be subjected to rigorous tests to make sure that they're not trans. And that does include cis women. I don't care how feminine they look. You could potentially be subjected to these rigorous tests because Donald Trump took his peanut head red orange behind and signed an executive order that he doesn't even know anything about. about. He's a convicted felon, 34 felonies, right? We also need to be focusing on letting

convicted felons in this country vote since we elected a convicted felon, right? There's so much more work. The economy is tanking here. All right. Riley? Gas prices are high. Okay. Why is Trump focused so much on trans people? Because he wants to preserve the integrity because I tell you why. I've lost him. because he's up it. I'll tell you why, Blossom. I'm a woman. Hang on, hang on. Hang on, Blossom.

Here's why. Because he's up against complete lunatics like you who think it would be right to have a gender neutral Olympics. A gender neutral Olympics is the most insane thing I've ever heard from any trans activist in history. Lunacy.

When you haven't met me, when you haven't found that until you met me, I'm not your average trans woman. In case you didn't notice that. I'm not your average trans woman. Riley. People like Blossom are exactly why Donald Trump won on November 5th. People, I believe.

Oh, girl, please. Girl, please. Donald Trump read the election, which is why he's sitting in office now. Can we mute? This is the most crap. Yeah, mute Blossom, please, because you can't stop talking. Riley, you respond. People turned out, I believe, in masses to the polls on November 5th,

to embrace Donald Trump, to embrace the America First Agenda, to embrace his cabinet picks. But more so, I believe people turned out to the polls to reject absurdity. And that is exactly what the past 30 minutes have been on this program. Pierce is totally entirely and thoroughly absurd from top to bottom, saying there should be a gender-neutral Olympics? Are you serious? Do you also believe Blossom that we should combine the Paralympics and the Olympics? I would love to hear an answer to that.

I'll ask her, bring Black Blossom. Blossom, should we combine the Paraly's with the regular Olympics, have them all compete with each other? I mean, why not? And to go back to Riley's point to that last one. Oh, my God. You are completely insane. Oh, my gosh.

No, because she actually said something that I wanted to respond to. So no Paralympian will win a medal. So your diversity, equity, and inclusion turns out to be unequal and doesn't include any Paralympian or any woman. because they want prices to come down. People went to the polls. They went to the polls to vote because they had every right to.

Yeah, and they voted for Donald Trump. You know why they voted for Trump? They did not. Because people like you are turning this debate into a total farce. Donald Trump rigged that election. Donald Trump does not even have the capacity to even run this country. You Blossom one more time because I want to thank Riley. Thank you, Blossom.

Riley, thank you for engaging in this and the best way you could have done. I think when we have somebody who with a straight face says that the answer to this debate is that we have a gender neutral Olympics and we allow Paralympics and the Olympics to morph into one event and says this is about D-I-E

when in fact what it does is it removes any equality for Paralympians or women so no disabled people competing would ever win and then women wouldn't win either more than about two or three medals because we all know that's why they separate the sexes. If that is D-I-E at work,

that is why D-I has been a travesty. DEI, I'm sorry. It would be a travesty. So, Riley, thank you. Congratulations on getting this over the line. Hopefully we'll bring some sanity and equality and inclusion back to sport, which is what we want.

Bring back Blossom. Blossom? Blossom. Are you done saying D-I-E is D-E-I? I know. I corrected myself. I credited myself. The whole thing is absurd,

whichever way you want to put the letters. I just can't get over that he said he's rooted in reality. Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, a blossom. Girl, but, uh, Miss Thine, Miss Tommy Lauren looking girl, go on. Miss Tommy Lauren looking girl, go on. Funny enough.

I'm not to have Tommy Lauren on the show. Tommy Lauren, reject, go on over there somewhere. Ad hominem. What you were saying, Pierce? Have violence and they have. Would you want to say,

Pierce. Miss, Go on over there and advocate. You realize you make every single trans person, every single trans activist look bad. You do. You know what? You make them all look terrible.

I represent myself. And what I'm doing is facing off with fascist and racist on live air. And I'm okay with that. It's racist and transphose. I'm sorry. Fabulous. I can say Blossom, I do want to congratulate you. I do want to congratulate you.

you. Seriously, Blossom. You have been without a shadow of a doubt the maddest trans-activist I've ever had on the show. Congratulations. Riley, thank you very much. Thank you Blossom. Coming from you, that's a compliment. That's it. I'm going to go another cold shower and calm down. Law Sebastian Coe is a double Olympic gold medalist,

one of the finest runners in sporting history, and now one of the most important figures in world sport. He's currently top dog at World Athletics, and he's in the running to be president of the International Olympic Committee. Most importantly of all, of course, He's here live on Unsensored. Great to see it. It's better than the alternative.

It's fascinating time to interview you because you're one of about, I think, the seven candidates to potentially run the IOC. At a critical moment, many people think. It's not the most exclusive club. No, no. I mean, first of all, why do you want to do this? It's everything I've ever done. I mean, I'm trying hard not to sound too cliched, but I've spent. my whole life in the Olympic movement. From the age of 11 when my old man bought me

my first pair of running shoes, joined an athletics club in Sheffield. And everything went, I try not to overcomplicate things. I'm sitting here because I started life as a pavement pounder. I'm a runner. And everything else has flowed from that.

And I have a passion for this. And it's because I genuinely think I can make a difference. I think you can because I think some of the things you've done in your current job, in my opinion, are essential for preserving the integrity of sport. And let's start with what I think is probably one of the most contentious things in world sport right now, which is this whole issue of trans athletes in women's sport. Donald Trump has come into office and immediately gone, right, there's a ban.

We're not going to have, in America, trans athletes in women's sport. The immediate consequence of that is, of course, you've got the Olympics coming to Los Angeles, and he's made it clear that trans athletes will not be allowed into America if they intend to compete, which means they won't be to compete in the Olympics as far as he's concerned, because they won't get in past the border. First of all, what is your reaction to the moves he's made? I welcome the commitment to maintaining the integrity of women's sport.

And for me, this is absolutely about the integrity of competition. I am by nature a social liberal. I really do not choose, nor do I have any predisposition to tell people how to live their lives. But when it comes to the biology of sport, it is very, very clear cut. And actually, I'm surprised that it has been as contentious a discussion as it has become. It seems completely insane to me. I'm thinking about in 20, 30 years' time, I'm convinced we're going to look back on this period. and think everybody went completely nuts

because there's a reason at the Olympics that we separate the sexes. If we didn't, women would barely win a medal. Well, you would lose women's sport. Right. It would be destroyed. It is as simple as that. And I was confronted with this issue. I don't want to get into the weeds.

There are two quite distinct issues that at World Athletics we had to deal with. One was something called DSD, which is a male biology. and the other is transgender. And look, I'm not oblivious to the trauma that people go through if they do transition. I absolutely respect that.

We have a working group at World Athletics looking at this and maintaining a watching view on changing science and the politics of this. We also have a transgender athlete on that commission, but when it comes to the female category in elite sport, it has to be sacrosanct. And the reason I think it's so important is that you cannot have young girls coming into the sport and sensing or feeling that at any stage there is a glass ceiling to their ability to perform at the very highest level. And you cannot have.

You just simply cannot have this lack of clarity. So World Athletics, we were very clear. We've followed the science and that is critical. I think we've used language that is moderate. You know, we're not, we're not rabid here. And when I discuss this, I tend to always pull myself up short and say, I have two daughters. How would I feel if they were being discussed at this moment? So it's really important that we use language that is moderate, but for me, this is sacrosan. What I don't like about the whole debate, and I haven't done from the stars, anyone that I think my political leanings are probably not dissimilar to yours, right? I've always been a pretty liberal guy.

Middle of the road. Yeah, exactly. And I really resented the fact that if you try and defend women's rights to fairness and equality and safety, actually, you get, you have been until now. It's changing quite quickly, but you get branded instantly transphobic as if somehow you're anti-trans people. It's a really interesting point you make. funnily enough, when we made the decision, and it wasn't a, this wasn't a unilateral decision, I have a council, I have 26 people on my council, male and female, I've got an executive board, we have a health and science team, but actually when we made the decision and we went out

and properly articulated what our concerns were, we didn't end up in that landscape because we were very clear and we showed a lead. We took a lead here. And some other international federations, I'm very pleased, have followed in the same way. I don't condemn those that haven't because I can't sit here assuming that everybody's going to see the world the way I do. But you're seeing it scientifically and biologically. I mean, there's a factual element to what you're doing. I think the other bodies, you haven't taken action yet, are just putting their head in the sand, hoping this all blows up.

over and they haven't got to do anything, which is actually, it's a form of moral cowardice. It's the worst position to be in here is where you have lack of clarity. Yes. You have to have clarity here because, you know, the world of sport needs a lead here. And we've thought about this long and hard. And it really does come down to the integrity. You know, if you have the integrity of sport, absolutely at the heart of every decision you make, and the welfare of the athletes at the heart of every decision you make,

you won't go far wrong. And that's really, those have been my two guiding pillars. If I let that go, then I've lost the integrity of the sport for women. And I'm just not prepared to do that. I mean, if you were at your peak, and I was in my late teens when you and Steve Ovae, and Steve Cramm had your magnificent battles and instill great pride in the country with your tremendous wins, But if you had decided at the time, right, I'm going to now identify as a woman.

And the only criteria was that you just had to reduce your testosterone level, for example, which is the argument some people give. You've still got the physiology that you were given as a biological man. Therefore, you would have completely dominated women's sport to a degree that you would have broken the records, which could then never be broken again by an actual biological woman. That's always been my thing about it. You would also have deprived a biological woman, but a woman, let's call them, they're not biological women,

they're women. You would have deprived a woman of a place in an Olympic team, a world championship team, because you're taking it. And you would have won everything, right? That to me right there is the problem. Pierce, I could actually repeat word for word what you've just said. I don't actually dissent from any of them. The challenge we've got is that we need to communicate.

we need to communicate it liberally, and we need to communicate it in language that is not rabid. It is follow the science. Have you thought about what? For me, it's really clear. Yeah. Gender must not override biology. Because if you do, then you are into a really dangerous landscape.

Have you thought about what happens to trans athletes? In other words, you know, I want trans people to have the same rights to fairness, equality and safety as I want for women and for men, and the right to compete in sport. And it seems to me there's only one of two ways that this gets resolved where they can continue to compete. You either have a new category for trans athletes, and it doesn't work with the other way around with the trans men, because obviously they don't have the biological advantage. So for trans women, of whom they're an increasing number identifying as trans women,

they either compete in a new category or they compete against their biological sex, it seems to me. Well, there may be a time and it may not be that far. I'm not going to bind the hands of my successor at World Athletics. They will have to make a judgment in the fullness of time as whether you do have a third category. Do you think that's the only sensible way? No, I don't. At this moment, no, I don't. But I'm not going to sit there when I'm not on the scenes telling everybody that, you know,

because we did what we did when we did it. I tend to agree with you. I think we'll look back on this and see this as being a really big point of inflection. But again, this is something that needs to be clarified. The position we've taken in World Athletics is that in elite level women's competition, we should not have transgender competitors.

For all the reasons you pointed out, I talked about the ambition the ambition and aspiration of young girls to come into your sport. You absolutely need that. But there's another issue, and you raised it, and that is the residual, the residual physiological, bi-mechanical, anatical, anatomical advantage that you maintain. But we're not sitting here saying,

nor do I have, I don't have the jurisdiction, I certainly don't have the moral disposition, to tell trans athletes they can't enjoy the physicality of sport. If a trans athlete wanted to run in the Falmouth 5K for the local hospital, I don't have a problem like that. No, why would anybody have a problem with that? But it fundamentally alters, it fundamentally alters the dynamic of elite level international sport for women. And that's where we've drawn the line.

I mean, there's also, I think, a clear safety issue. Like if you looked at the boxing, the women's boxing in the Olympics in Paris, with Imam Khalif, who no one's really quite sure what. what the situation is with Imam Khalid. Other than she was banned from the World Championships for supposedly testing positive for male chromosomes, she has refused to have a test, public test to say either way. I think you want tests brought in.

We agreed that the other day, and it's in line with every international medical standard. It's a simple swab test? Yes, absolutely. And it just determines whether you have male chromosomes. Exactly. And actually, there is an important element here as well, because for athletes with DSD, you're actually also wanting to identify the medical challenges.

For those who don't know, what is DST? It is effectively a woman, a girl that is born with male biology. And the production of testosterone is, look, testosterone is the key determinant in competition. You know, let me again, if I can, I'm not a scientist, but if I can put this into sort of simple terms, when my daughters, your daughters, were competing in primary school sports, up to about the age of 11 or 12,

they were probably seeing off most of the boys in the class. When puberty kicks in, the gap opens, and that gap doesn't close. So what we're really saying is that any athlete that passes through puberty should be, clearly classified. And again, the issue around the boxing, it was just a lack of clarity.

That was the problem. Well, I thought it was worse, actually, because you had someone who'd been banned from the World Championships over serious question marks about her alleged chromosomes, and you had a female fighter quitting after 40 seconds

and saying afterwards, I've never been hit that hard. And I found that pretty scary that you may have a situation where somebody who, for all intents and purposes, is male, beating up a woman in a boxing ring in the Olympics. There had to be more to it

than simple identification of sex on a passport. Right. You know, it was really important that you have those systems in place. And that's really all we... What did you feel when you saw that? Well, I'm sorry, I was on the British Boxing Board of Control

for six years and I have daughters. I mean, how do you think I feel? Tell me. Well, uncomfortable. Yeah. I think most people did. But again, the people I think that were let down in that were, believe it or not, the competitors.

I don't disagree with that. They were the athletes. If you'd had systems in place that were clear and were clear and concise. Which you had as world athletics. That couldn't have happened. Yeah. That couldn't have happened. That's the problem about that.

And that's something we need to. That is something we have to address. So to be clear, if you were to become president of the IOC, for example, you're in charge of the Olympics. One of the first things you'd want is to have utter consistency over issues like this across everyone competing. Yes, there is a clear caveat here because the international federations must themselves

have the autonomy to make decisions that are in the best. Can you override them? No. And we probably shouldn't. The decision we took in World Athletics, was because we felt it was in the best interest of the sport. I'm not sitting here. I'm not the kind of leader that sits there and goes,

one size fits all. But what I do think is it is incumbent upon the International Olympic Committee to at least set the tone and the thought leadership around this. And international federations, I think, would take a lead. The problem is that there's no clear-cut clarity around this. And until you get that, I'm afraid you will have more examples of what you read just talking. I was watching CNN yesterday and they had a sprinter called CC Telfer, who was biologically male competed as a male for a long time and then switched and said, I'm now a woman. And I made the point on, I don't mean to be transphobic at all.

I just said, look, this is somebody who presents like a man, talks like a man, sprints like a man is a tall, powerful athlete sprinter and is now smashing women's records. And I said, I'm sorry, but to me, it's cheating. It's just much cheating as doping because you are deliberately seeking an unfair advantage over your competitors. Would you go as far as that? I'm not sure I would use, I absolutely understand where you were coming from on this. I'm not sure I would use that language. What I would say is that you've got to have systems in place that prevent that from happening. And that's it.

You've got to go absolutely back to basics. here, have your systems, and everybody understands what that is. I mean, look, you know, there are, there is a, there are a set of records in one US state that have been set by two boys that turned up in a state championship and just suddenly said to the organizing committee, we, I think C.C. Telfour was one of them. We're assigned as women. Well, you know, you've got to have clear-cut You've got to have clear-cut policies here because you're leaving even a local organizing committee in a real quandary. If you have those decisions that are made at the top and they're filtered down and they're communicated properly, then you're going to obviate a lot of the pain for athletes in this as well.

Because this is not an easy situation for an athlete to be. And I don't sit here thinking that anybody that chooses to become, you know, to transition, to go through that transgender process, is somebody that is going through anything other than a trauma. But I think we should listen to people like Caitlin Jenner, who when you were young, you would remember as Bruce Jenner, winning, you know, Olympic decafalon gold medal, rapping himself at the time in a big American flag,

but he has become a real voice of sanity in all this debate. Well, I know Caitlin very well, and of course, you know, we were not quite contemporaries, but, you know, won games before me. And I had this conversation not that long ago in the US. And, I mean, to introduce a slightly comedic element, she is absolutely clear that this has to be agreed with me, that you have to have clear-cut policies. And then laughed and said, I play golf.

Do you think I whack that off the women's tea? So there is a residual strain. But she was invited to go off the women's teas originally when she first tried. And she said no. And she teased off the men's tees. And that's why, interestingly, the compromise in the end, it could be there's a new category, or it could be they simply compete against their biological sex,

as Caitlin does by going off the men's teas when she plays golf. I think there is a different scale of challenge here as well, because with all due respects, in athletics, you have somebody in that situation in an 800 metres or whatever it happens to be. They're probably going to win by half a straight. That's embarrassment and frustration. We're not a contact sport unless it goes horribly wrong

and the judges have to get involved. So there is a much bigger challenge in contact sports. And that's where the safeguarding elements of this and the physical safeguarding is really critical. I mean, I'm not asking you to give a general view about President Trump, but on this issue, given he'll be president when the Olympics goes to, to LA. Is he right on this?

He's right on the principle that, as we've just talked about, I'm not going to get into the local conditions that he's setting about, you know, visas and all that. That is very much a US issue. If I become president of World Athletics, I also am not Naïem and Koi. That's in my intray. But that's something I'm, you know, there's no certainty of outcome here. It's an election.

As you know, well, it's not an exact science. But that is something that clearly would be a challenge. But insofar as he has set out to protect the female category, then the logic of what I've said has to support that NOSP. What about Russia? Because they're currently banned by the IOC. Athletes from Russia and Belarus were only allowed to compete in Paris as neutral athletes. 32 of them competed.

but I think you as World Athletics President, you weren't one step further and no track and field athletes from either country were allowed to compete even as neutral. Yeah, but there's a bit more of a history to that, if you don't mind me saying. I became president in 2015, talking about intrays.

I had to deal with an in-tray that contained Russia that had in the space of less than two years 149 positive tests in athletics. It wasn't something I could sit on my hands and say, oh, one more new cycle, we'll sort this out. And there were other things that were going on at the same time. So in 2015, we suspended the Russian Federation. We set up a task force. It was independently chaired by one of the most eminent, you know, doping experts, anti-doping experts in Norwegian.

And bit by bit and slowly by bit, over. Over seven years, we actually got Russia into, and we have got them into a decent position, where the Athletic Integrity Unit, which is what I set up with my own reforms, has now got control of the testing. We've got two or three independent people. They've got a new federation. And actually, had the Russia-Ukraine situation not raised its head, they would have been ready to come back.

And I would have been actually quite pleased with that, we'd been through the process clearly what works out, you know, what happens now is a little above my pay grade and is being, you know, discussed as we speak in South. So we actually introduced the concept of neutral athletes. And when I did it, everybody said, oh, it'll never work. And within a year, everybody was actually using it. But when we got to the situation, and again, it's about integrity here. This wasn't about passports or politics.

I actually studied Russian history, interestingly. That's not why we did it. The same guiding principles around what we've just discussed in transgender, for me, pertained in the Russia's situation, and that is that we suddenly had lost a country who had a proud tradition in track and field from being able to compete properly. If male athletes were out on the front line,

some of them losing their lives. Female athletes were wondering where their husband's, boyfriends and coaches were. So it was just a very unequal situation. But look, situations alter. We have a working group that will look and monitor this and will regularly report back to the council as what situation must pertain. But you have to put process behind it. What I don't like is policy by press release and then walking away from it.

I understand. If hypothetically there was a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine, and you've become president of the IOC, would you then see a scenario where Russia could come back and compete? Yes, it's not for me to design peace treaties. But in that eventuality? No, in that eventuality. The war was over.

In that eventuality, you would have to look very, very closely at that. And clearly, the world is an uncertain, complicated. place and it's it's not neatly packaged. I mean, all wars end with a table, a map and people. It depends where the table is, who's sitting around it, and what does the map look like? But that's clearly, I mean, I'm no expert in this field, but it's pretty clear that we will and can, I hope, Christ, I hope we get to that situation where this stops. But if you get to a situation where you have a peace agreement, then you would have to look very

closely at you personally wouldn't have any ongoing issue with Russia in that eventuality. No, you wouldn't because the reality was you can only deal with what you deal with at the time. But the criteria for them not coming back, the doping thing had been resolved to your satisfaction. Yeah, I mean, the council... So the criteria for them competing was simply that they were waging what many believed to be an illegal war in Ukraine if that was brought to a resolution. And the integrity of competition was being badly influenced. If they get, if we get to a situation where I hope we do, where...

an agreement is made and it meets with the satisfaction of both sides. I'm not an arbiter on this. I'm not sitting here making a judgment about the Versailles Treaty. But what I do, if you're logical about this and you get to that position, then it is far better to have people in your sport rather than sitting outside it. Would the same apply to Israel with the situation in Gaza? Well, look, I don't want to get into individual cases. Israel is a very different case. and its status with the United Nations and the way that it has been dealt with and the lack of sanction.

I'm not saying I'm not falling on either side of that. In fact, much of my month is spent speaking to the Israel Track and Field Federation and the Palestine Federation. And my responsibility is to try to keep athletes in competition. What is the current status with World Athletics with Israel and Palestinian athletes? They can both compete.

Right. And we actually helped Palestine. Palestinian athletes into training and with some financial to support, given the difficulties. And actually, that was with the approval of the Israel Track and Field Federation. These are lots of moral questions that come up here. A lot of people think there should be no conflation with politics and sport. I mean, is it impossible to avoid conflation? Look, I'm sorry to say it.

I won't pull my punches. That is naivety personified. Politics is the stuff of life, sport is the stuff of life. Actually, if we're smart in sport, you should be forging even closer political relationships. Because the reality of it is, if we want stadiums to be built, we want programs like kids' athletics, we want to be able to harness sport for the benefit of health and vibrancy, particularly in local communities, hard press communities, then sport. is the best way of doing that, and the people that have the ability to unlock those budgets are

politicians. So to sit there saying that, you know, politics and sport, they should, and we should be, there's a difference between party politics and sport, but we should be harnessing politicians. One of my real objectives, if I become president of the International Olympic Committee, is to raise sport significantly higher on government agendas because I will go to my grave knowing that sport is the most potent social worker in all our communities.

It does it 24. You, Pierce, you love sport. You've seen it. You've seen it time and time. Well, I've just seen it really interestingly was in Saudi Arabia. I went for the first time to Saudi Arabia two weeks ago and spent a week in Riyadh.

And they've got an incredibly young population. I think it's like two-thirds are under 35. Only 4% of Saudis are over 65. It's quite extraordinary demographic. But since they made through the Crown Prince, they've made a decision that they're going to replace the depleting oil supplies and therefore revenues with tourism, sport, entertainment.

And diversification to sport. But particularly based around sport. This has proved incredibly popular, and he's combined it with a thing to get all young Saudis to get out and exercise at least three times a week. And it's proving very popular. Yeah. And you can see it transforming the country.

And this is what I'm. I would do to encourage all governments to recognize the extraordinary power that sport has, both in building up the health and fitness of local communities. And diplomatically, used properly, it is the deftest of political. Would you talk to, if you would become president of us, you're one of those powerful people, if not the most powerful person in world sport when you do that. And part of that job would be to interact with world leaders. would you feel happy, relaxed, comfortable?

How would you categorize it to pick the phone up to Vladimir Putin, for example? And would you have any issue with doing that? Well, I do this all the time, actually, in my capacity now. At world athletics. At world athletics, just in the last few months. I've had face-to-face meetings with people like Narendra Modi. This is not unusual. And actually, before the doping crisis, which also, we tend to forget,

raised its head also in the Sochi Winter Games, which was really where it became a really elevated issue. I'd had discussions with Russia about developing our sport at very sensible levels. So this is something I'm actually quite used to, and you have to speak to everybody. You know, if you are promoting the cause of sport, it's not just going to be promoted by talking to ourselves. So you would talk to Putin? Of course you would. Of course you would. On the issue of doping, It's obviously been an endemic problem in many sports. We've just seen a very odd situation in world tennis where Yanik Sinner, the world number one,

came to some agreement to get a three-month doping ban with Wadder, who had the body obviously for tennis and the doping. He tested twice positive for banned substance. They believed his story that he got this from a massage therapist, who sprayed it on his own injured finger before massaging him and so on. But everyone's unhappy about this. Novak Djokovic said he's been showing favoritism,

Nick Kiroz, it was a sad day for tennis. Coming back to your central plank of consistency here, what seems undeniable is if you were a relatively unknown professional tennis player and you'd failed to test, whatever the circumstances, bang, you're thrown out for two to four years. If you're the number one, there seems to have been another rule for him. Pierce, I don't know enough about this case, and I certainly have no, none of the intimate details would allow me to make any sensible judgment. What I will say is we work very closely in World Athletics with the World Anti-Doping Agency, and I actually think it's a pretty good organisation.

We created in our own sport the Athletic Integrity Unit, and why did I do that? because I sensed exactly the point you're making that in the past that some of our member federations from larger, more commercially expansive, more politically well connected, were taking different positions on some of these doping issues than the smaller federations. And the one thing I wanted out of the athletic integrity unit, I think in large part we've achieved that, is I don't want I don't want any athlete to think that they're bigger than the system and that somehow reputation or status or the proximity of a big competition

is going to be a diluting factor in the way that you treat it. It's really important that athletics is a really, it is a fabulous sport, I would say that. But you can't have a situation where the athlete in lane three thinks that they're at a disadvantage, because in lanes two and four, you've got a better set of chemists at work. Right.

It has to be free, fair and open. And the reason you have tough anti-doping regs is not just to weed out the cheats. Yeah, that's important. It's actually to protect the athletes, those competitors that want to do this cleanly. I'm not remotely in a position to get into the individual cases of federations.

But I think you've dropped to do this. I think you've dropped enough hints. But the one thing that it's really important is that you have, as we've talked about, consistency of decision. And I want to see governments of all political persuasions putting more money into the World Anti-Doping Agency. So it's got more teeth to protect the birthright of sport

and not less. How many cheats do you think there are? Oh, I have no idea. I mean, what does your gut tell you? My gut tells me. that this is a battle you're never going to win, that you know as well as I do. In every walk of life, there will be a few that are going to step beyond the written codified moral boundaries. That's nature. Risk, reward is often a key consideration. And you've got to be culturally savvy

about this as well. You know, if you're a street kid that, you know, is being offered through some unscrupulous coach or dealer a quick way to earning money, then the risk and reward is probably not an unreasonable one. So we need education programs that leave athletes in no doubt at all, that we have the technology to pull them out, and we will do that, and it will be without fear or favor. And I think that's about the only place you can leave it. Are we ever going to be in a world where we have,

entirely clean spot, I think it's as unlikely as being in the city and not having isolated incidents of insider trading or malfeasance wherever it occurred. When you think back to your big race. It's human nature, really, isn't it? When you think about your Olympic finals, for example, I don't know the answer, but do you know how many of the competitors you were up against later turned out to be cheats? Or do, well, there are others you suspected who got away with it? Well, look, my own views about, you know, suspicious.

athletes, I'll keep to myself, but you've got to remember. Could you tell that? I'm now carbon dating myself. I was in a generation where we had very significantly less control than we do now. I mean, if I tell you the ability to be able to identify a thimble full of a alien substance in a swimming pool, we've got biological passports, it's a very much tougher regime. And of course, we didn't have the issue, we don't have the issue now as we did then, of a divided world. You know, sport was very much east and west, particularly in an Olympic sport.

But, I mean, is it satisfying to know you won despite the fact there were probably quite a few cheats knocking around? On the occasional John Smith's bitter on a Friday night in Sheffield, yes. Do you still run? I do. Every other day. Do you? It's a very charity. If you saw me, it will probably. It would be a very charitable description.

What do you do? How far do you run? I run an hour every other day. Do you? And I do a conditioning program on the days I don't run. And do you still enjoy it? I'm a Yorkshireman. It's cheaper than buying a new suit each year. But do you still enjoy it? I do. I love it. It's my mental.

What is it about running for you? It's my mental freedom. When you're running along now, having achieved all you've achieved, what are you thinking when you're running? I'm just enjoying it. The reason that you go into a sport, people say you choose a sport. Actually, I think it's the other way around. I think a sport chooses you. I know you're an absolute rabid cricket fan.

Well, Lord Botham, for example, has never picked up a cricket back from the day he retired. He can't give anything worse. He doesn't do any charity games, nothing. He just said, that's it. And in fact, the last ball he ever faced was against the Australian touring team. He was at Durham.

And then he know this story, but the bowler came into bowl, Botham came into bowl, and an Australian batsman with, as he put it, his meat and two veg hanging out. And that was the last ball he ever bowled. He walked off afterwards, having made his little statement, and never played again. But you still run. Well, Ian Botham is one of my heroes.

You won't recognise that. But again, there's a big difference when you're retired from retiring from a team sport and retiring from an individual sport. I can put my running shoes on. If I'm staying in a hotel, I'll run the treadmill. If I'm at home, I'll just go and run wherever I'm able to do it. It's the most accessible sport. If you're beefy and you don't want to pick up and you want to play,

you've probably got to be still involved in a club. You've got four or five hours. It's much easier to retire from an individual sport as long as it's sort of fairly accessible. And it's not, you know, you're not still reliant on expensive cars or horses or yacht. Well, talking of expensive cars, Jensen Button told me that even now when he's out in normal streets in a fast car, he comes up to traffic lights. and there's someone on a Porsche,

they look at him, if they see him, they're like, okay, and they want to race it. Lennox Lewis told me when he was the heavyweight champion of the world, every bar he went to in Harlem. Yeah, of course. The big guy would want to have a fight with him, right? When you're out running now, and there's another jogger comes along, right?

Do you feel the old juices flowing? Yeah, a little bit. I love that. But there was a more sobering moment a couple of years ago. I was running with some friends in Australia. We're on the boardwalking up in the... Sunshine Coast. And I knew my days were really well and truly over when I'm going at what I thought was a reasonable lick. And an 18-year-old kid in board shorts and flip-flops and a surfboard under

his arm actually ran past us. We all looked at each other and we went, okay. It's over. It's over, guys. Well, the race you're now in is to be the president of the IOC. It's March the 18th to the 21st is the actual election. It's a secret ballot. I think is there 100 members? Yeah, about 111, yeah. I mean, A, what do you think your chances are? And B, what is your sort of final message to them if they watch this interview

as to why it should be you? Well, the final message is I hope you've gathered from everything I've said that I think I've done within my life, those jobs, those responsibilities, delivering an Olympic Games, Paralympic Games, chairing an organising committee, you know, being active in the sport as a competitor,

and president of, you know, essential, and my political background, I'm hoping that people think I have the competence to do that. But I want to go further than that. This is not a job for me. This is an absolute passion. I think I can make a difference. And look, you know, we all have strengths and weaknesses. I know that one of my strengths is the ability to build teams and take people with me.

So, look, it's ultimately up to the membership. I think we've got some massive challenges ahead. I think they're geopolitical. I think they're commercial. I think you'd get this again in a heartbeat, just the changing nature of broadcast, our ability to really continue to engage with young people and want them to fashion their futures through sport

because it goes way, way beyond the medals table and the field of play. It's a lifelong commitment. And those are the things that I think I've really understood, and I've come from a background, where, you know, everything I've done has had an Olympic or a sporting background. And I'm very proud to be able to say that. And you're used to winning, but one of the very few people who struck me who beat you was Steve Ovet in the greatest rivalry of all time. It just struck me, but do you still, are you mates? Do you hang out?

Yes, we are. He lives in Australia. He hasn't been in the UK for a long time, but it was a rivalry that we probably didn't ever, we were very cautious about what we said publicly about each other. But there was a moment of candor a few years ago. I was actually babysitting one of his kids while he was commentating in the Commonwealth Games. And I said to him, we were having supper afterwards. And his son, Freddie, who was actually running for Australia, was asked.

asking question, what's it like to buy it as my dad? I said, look, your dad was one of the most naturally talented athletes I ever met. But I said, look, I'll, and I, Steve was at the table. I said, Steve, I'll admit something to you that on Christmas Day, 1979, the year before the games, I was in Sheffield, it was a Vargnerian winter, the snow was coming down, sounding a bit like the three Yorkmen out of Monty Python. I'm trying hard not to. And I ran that morning about 13 or 14 miles in

horrendous conditions. And during the afternoon with the, I don't know, the 900th rerun of the Sound of Music or Dam Busters, I felt uneasy. I couldn't figure out what it was. And I suddenly sat there thinking, I bet he's out doing another training session. So completely obsessionally, went up to my room, put my kit on, and just went out and ran another five miles, came back and felt really good. And I told him that story. This is years later. And he looked at me and he went, Did you only go out twice that day? 35 years later. We're still scoring points of each other,

but he was an outstanding athlete. That's great, great. It's great to see you. This might be the kiss of death, but you've got my endorsement. I actually think you'd be brilliant in this job, and I hope they see sense and give it to you, not just because you're a Brit,

and that would be great for us. I think you've got the right ideas for this. It's a big job that needs big ideas, and a bit of moral courage. And I think you've got that, and that's what we need it, running world sport right now. A bit of moral balls

under fire, for want of a better phrase. Yeah, I may not include that in a manifest over. It might not be the winning phrase, actually, know what I think about it. Thank you for the sentiment. Good to see you. It's great to see you. All the best. Thank you.

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