Piers Morgan Uncensored - "Trump The MONEY Guy" Tariffs, Tesla & More | Plus 'God of Cars' Carlos Ghosn

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

As Donald Trump doubles down on his tariff plans soon after letting Elon Musk try and breathe life into plummeting Tesla sales on the lawn of the White House, the US President's economics may be begging the question... is he the world's best bluffer? To debate this, plus the counterterrorism laws being questioned after the detainment of Mahmoud Khalil and more, two special guests are invited to the Uncensored studio - battle-hardened survivor of cancel culture and Nancy Pelosi challenger Winston Marshall and Uncensored regular and Young Turks CEO Cenk Uygur. Plus pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist activist Nerdeen Kiswani joins to add extra spice to the debate. Then, Piers speaks to Carlos Ghosn, the man known as 'The God of Cars', who escaped fraud charges in Japan by fleeing the country in a box and now lives in Beirut as a fugitive. What does HE make of Trump and Elon Musk? Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by: Home Title Lock: Go to https://www.hometitlelock.com/piersmorgan and use promo code PIERS to get a FREE title history report so you can find out if you’re already a victim AND access to your Personal Title Expert —a $250 value— when you sign up! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mosk and Trump said they were free speech absolutists, but now they say, no, no, there's one exception, and there was always one exception. You'll get no Epstein files. You'll get no freedom of speech. We'll do nothing but cancel culture, but always on behalf of beloved special ally Israel. The Biden administration forbid Israelis from coming into America.

Oh, yeah, Biden's so tough on Israel. That's why you're going to bring up Israel. This is what Biden is Israel. He's openly making these threats against American citizens, like myself, here in the streets of New York City, joined by Israelis, and nothing is done about it. One of her protests was so, it's so terrible and antisemitic that even AOC decided that she had gone too far.

You were brutalizing them. 58 years. You kept them in a dark dungeon. And any time they dare to oppose you, you cut off their water. Hamas has done this. I've known Elon Musk for a very long time. He was at the same time an ally,

and the competitor. Carlos, how rich are you? Elon Musk's Tesla, the world's most valuable car company, is in turmoil. The president is even selling them on the White House lawn to arrest its market meltdown.

Musk says he's put in country before cars, but can he do both? Later on I speak exclusively to Carlos Gowen, the man known as the god of cars who escaped fraud charges in Japan by fleeing the country in a box on a private plane. Now lives in Beirut as a fugitive.

If that's what worth looking around for, not frankly, what he is. We'll begin with two special guests in the uncensored studio. They both share a deep disdain for donor-driven politicians. They both have profound concerns about the state of our culture and the world we live in. They both have very different views on the solutions. Winston Marshall is host of the Winston Marshall Show, a battle-hardened survivor of cancelled culture, whose many achievements, included eviscerating Nancy Pelosi at the Oxford Union.

Czech Yuga is founder and CEO of the Young Turks, an uncensored legend, who was not smuggled here in a box as far as I'm a wall. And gentlemen, well, welcome to both of you. It's great to see you again here. Chew, welcome to London. Welcome to the uncensored lair. Thank you. It's a pleasure being here, and no, I wouldn't have fit in a box.

It's an extraordinary story that guy, actually. I'm looking forward to talking to him. Let's start, Cheng. Donald Trump, we're 50 days in. It feels like every day, as it was the first time with Trump, is a massive story. A lot of people saying it's totally,

He doesn't know what he's doing, etc. Many on his side coming out and going, actually there's a plan. There's always been a plan and it's not chaos and you're going to see the results of all this in a few months' time. What's your take on it? Yeah, I'm positive that there's no plan, but with a huge caveat. So I'll get to the caveat in a second. But first of all, he just doesn't know what he's doing.

So he went out against Tom Massey the other day. And Tom Massey is one of the most principal conservatives slash libertarian. there are. I knew that if he went after Tom Massey, that it would be a major mistake because Massey has better bona fides than Trump does, even in Maga World and in conservative circles. But he doesn't even know that. You don't know that Massey's the principled conservative. You don't know that that's the worst guy to target, and they don't. He's flying by the seat of his pants. And so, but by the way, I also have experience with Democrats gaslighting. They told us, oh, no, no, no, no, no. The Democratic leadership knows exactly what they're doing. They're playing

four-dimensional chess, you simpletons don't understand it. You see if you run someone who's super old and has dementia, they'll seem young and dynamic. I'm like, no, you don't know anything. It's all Wizard of Oz. The men that you pull back the curtain on Democratic leaders or Republican leaders, they're all fools. So let me put a scenario to you. Because what Trump did in the first term, before the pandemic, was get the economy purring pretty nicely by common agreement. Here's a different scenario to it, that within six months, he's got peace in Ukraine, he's got peace in the Middle East. He's won the Nobel Peace Prize

or should certainly be nominated for it because Obama got one for doing something that no one can even today tell me what he deserved it for. And the economy is, well, after all the tariff, mayhem and everything else, is beginning to really purr as it did in his first term.

I mean, that could happen. He could also win the Super Bowl in the World Cup. Okay, but that's your rosy hypothetical. All those three things could still happen. So look, no, there's one that definitely cannot happen, which is peace in the Middle East. Like, there is a plan that I've told you about on this show many times

where he agrees with what the Arab League says, easy path to peace in the Middle East, but the reason we can't have it is because Israel doesn't want peace. So they want to grab Gaza and the West Bank, so there's no chance Israel is going to say yes to peace. So that one's foreclosed. Ukraine and Russia, look, if

he actually got it done, though, Ukraine, Russia, peace, and he really got a two-state solution, of course he would deserve a Nobel Peace Prize. And yes, Obama shouldn't have gotten one. Why did he get one? Two wrongs don't make a right. Because they were so hyped up.

They were so anti-Bush and Cheney the whole world was, and they were right, right? And now even the Republicans agree, and Trump agrees, Bush and Cheney were a disaster. The minute anyone came, and it could have been Mickey Mouse, they'd be like Nobel Peace Prize for not attacking a random Middle Eastern country. So that's why he got it, but he didn't deserve it, and he did the drones and said it. But the caveat's important.

What Trump does is he A-B-Tess everything. So he'll try something. And then if he doesn't work, I'm doubling down the tariffs on Canada. Oh, the stock market crash? No, I'm not. No, I'm not. I said I'm doing only 25%. And he keeps flip-flopping because that's what he's always done because he doesn't have principles. He's just trying to find out what's popular. He's also a dealmaker. I mean, this thing about Trump, I think people often forget or deliberately

choose to forget, is that at his gut, everything's a deal. Everything's transactional. I think he genuinely does want to make America great. I don't dispute that for a moment. how he does it is the way he sells real estate or used to, right? Is everything up for negotiation? He's a pragmatist, but is also a disruptor. And I think that what we're seeing, as we speak right now, the stock markets calm down, although I think it's only just past where it was

before he got the bump before his election went back in November. He disrupts the market and he messes about with things. And, you know, look at Ukraine. As we talk, he has got, the Ukrainians have agreed to a ceasefire. and it's up to the Russians now to come to the table. After everything we saw at the Oval Office, all of the... And I was asked about that,

because I actually spoke to Trump the morning before the Oval Office bused up, that morning I spoke to. And I was asked after us, well, come on then, you know, this is obviously the end of any chance of peace there, and is humiliated, and I went, why don't you just hang on a bit? Right? Because there's clearly a bit of method to the madness.

Well, like Clies with the guy. And it turned out, I was right, right? Because they've been in Saudi Arabia. They've got an agreement from Zonaut. Zelensky, he's going to go back and see Trump in the White House. I just think with Trump, sometimes everybody throws their toys out of a stroller way too quickly. Just see what the plan is and see if it works. If it doesn't work, hammer it.

Likewise, with all the upset about the Gaza plan, the idea that America would take over, that goes completely against his America-first MAGA principles. And certainly he doesn't want to embroil America into some sort of new deal. But look, what's happened since. the Arab nations have come together and said, no, we don't want America looking after it. And they put together this, what is it, $53 billion dollar Gaza rebuild plan.

No, it may not work, Jack. I'm not saying for a moment, all this is going to work. I just think when people look at Trump and think, he doesn't know what he's doing, as you said. It's all chaos. I honestly don't believe that is the case. He's got some very smart people around him, not least Elon Musk.

And whatever people think of Musk, when they say he's stupid, they're the stupid ones. He's one of the most brilliant minds in America. Now, he's a little odd, there's no question. By his own ambition, he's a bit autistic. He doesn't behave in the way that we might normally expect our political leaders to behave, and he kind of is a political leader in a way. But what he's doing with Doge, for example,

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They cleaned it out. And Clinton was the last president to balance the budget. So there is waste, fraud, and abuse there. The place you would start is subsidies. There's like $30 billion in oil subsidies. It's just nothing but a robbery. I can show you robbery after robbery.

Corporations pay money to politicians and they get subsidies out. I despise it. So if that's what they did, they would be intensely popular. But what did he do instead? Oh, I'm just going to cut a whole bunch of people that came in last. I'm going to fire a whole bunch of people

without even looking. And then that made it really unpopular. They've somehow found a way to make fighting fraud, waste, and abuse unpopular. It's now 37% in dropping in terms of Doge's popularity. So there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. I mean, you can make excuse about autistic, et cetera, but

I need a brother who can think through a plan. Both Musk and Trump are like, I'll just throw it up against the wall and see what sticks. Oh, that one stuck. Is Elon Musk Musk, is he underestimating the difference between or misunderstanding, the difference between the business world in which he's been all-conquering

and the political world. In other words, some things may make completely logical business sense, but from a political standpoint, if you start to see the polls massively responding negatively, Trump's a politician now. He's not going to let that slide for very long.

Yeah, that's why he ran them in. So that's why I say he does A-B-Tessing. He tries one thing. If it doesn't work, he goes to the next thing. And by the way, that is, to be fair to your point of view, that is a bit of a plan. And it's a plan to say, well, look, I don't really know what's going to work, but I'll try this. And if it doesn't work, I'll retract. Well, what I think he's doing, Winston, I think he's trying to force action to be taken to resolve things that have been unresolvable, right?

The Ukraine War, you know, I spoke to him a couple of weeks before he got inaugurated, and he was telling me that the Pentagon has said 100,000 people died on the battlefield in the previous six weeks. 100,000. It's on both sides, right? He said it was based like a World War I killing field with flat fields and they're just killing each other all day long. And he said it has to stop. Now, did he have the one day fix? Of course.

He didn't. No, I don't think anyone thought he did. Has what he's done since hastened a potential settlement? I would argue it has. He's got Zelensky to agree to the parameters of a peace arrangement. He's got to persuade Putin. That's the big test. We'll see if Putin goes along with it.

Or what Trump does to Putin? to make him go along with it. But I do see method there to what he's doing. Same with Israel. I'm going to come into the Israel-Gaza situation a little later. But I do see, you know, like the tariffs. He's always been on about tariffs, Trump. Tariff's favourite word?

I've known Trump 20 years. He's always had a be in his bonnet about tariffs and about other countries ripping America off. And so he's saying, right, if you're going to do this to us, we're going to whack you. And they're all blinking, by the way, these countries. Yeah. I mean, I just would like to talk about tariffs

because I think that's really important. As we're talking, a lot of what's happening in the stock exchange is because of his tariffs. Now, why this is really important is because he managed to appeal to working people in America, the forgotten the Rust Belt, the flyover state people, whose industries were gutted. I think we might have some agreement on this.

These were left behind Americans, and they were left behind by globalism, by free trade across the world. They were the ones who suffered. Indesputably. His ideas with tariffs, whether or not he can pull them off, none of us can know whether or not it will. But the idea is to bring back to onshore those industries,

encourage manufacturing. I would note Elon Musk has said he's going to double Tesla productions. Increasing manufacturers in America. This is done specifically for the working people of America. It's a reason why the unions, or at least uneducated unions. He's a working class. No, no, no, nonsense. So look, here's the thing.

Is he running as a populist? Yes, he ran as a populist. Yes, he talked about bringing jobs back, manufacturing back, et cetera. But what's he actually going to do? A $4.5 trillion tax cut for the richest people in the world for corporate executives.

The reason why they're doing all these doge cuts in a panicked, chaotic way is so they can say, oh, no, no, it's okay. The doge cuts will cover the $4.5 trillion. Oh, it's okay. The gold card and the tariffs will cover the $4.5 trillion. When that's utter nonsense, you know it's not going to cover the $4.5 trillion.

It's a giant giveaway. Look, he's a bit of a Trojan horse for corporate rule. So he rolls in as a populace. He opens up the hatch, and then next to you know, Elon Musk and all the tech bros come out of the horse and go, give us giant tax cuts. Give us deregulation. Fire everyone at the SEC. Fire all the inspector generals.

Why? Because we're going to rob the place blind. And then we'll give me a crypto reserve filled with junk. That makes no sense at all. So trillions of dollars in robbery headed in our direction. And who is it going to help? the average American? No, it's going to rob the average American to help corporate executives.

So let's be honest about what's happening. Okay, let's say that's the worst faith interpretation of what's going on. Let me paint the best faith interpretation. It's a three-prond attack. One, you clear out, and this is what's happening with Doug. You clear out federal waste. You clear out government waste, which they're doing. Mosque says

he wants to get two million, sorry, two trillion dollars out. I don't think that's feasible. Maybe he'll get a trillion. He says he can get a trillion. I mean, don't you get tired of his eyes, though? I'm going to say. Because you know he's not going to do two trillion. Hang on a sec. So then the other aspect, the other foot of the stool, the tripod, is tariffs. He's hoping to onshore manufacturing, bring back that to America. And the final piece is reducing income.

Now, so income tax, excuse me. The reason he wants to reduce income tax might be, as you say, or it might be. But by having all working people have more of their own money, keep more of their own money, they'll be able to spend it on things they want that will encourage the economy. No, that's always what they say. Supply side economics, my ass. Come on, it's the biggest trick on the, not only just American people, but people all across the world. That's what they call it the laugh for a curve, because they laugh their ass off at the average guy who believes it.

So the idea is trickle down economics. We give all the money to the rich, trillions and trillions and trillions. Later, they trickle all over you, and you'll have to thank them for it. No, no. So I guarantee you the $4.5 trillion is a robbery. That's robbery number one. I'm worried about robbery number two, which is crypto. So I don't know why we have a crypto reserve.

The crypto guys told me that they didn't like the government. They wanted the government stinking hands off their crypto. All of a sudden, Trump said, they're like, no, buy my crypto, buy my crypto. Make the American taxpayers buy my crypto. No, no, I don't want your crap. You like your crap, you keep your crap, okay? But I don't need average Joe in Nebraska and Jane in Kansas buying your crypto for you, okay, and a reserve. So this is all a giant robbery.

But the problem is by the time people find out whether I'm right, you're right peers or you're right, Winston, and it's going to be too late. The money's already going to be gone. You don't dispute that after three years of his first term, the U.S. economy was in good shape. You don't dispute that. No, I don't dispute that Biden's economy was also in good. Well, one of the reasons Trump, I think,

reacted so badly to the pandemic was he knew it was crushing the stock market. It was crushing the economy. It was attacking the very things he cares most about, which is money and the economy. He's a money guy. And I think that he felt awful about that. affected him. But for the three years, as I've said to it, but for the three years up until that

point, actually the US economy was in good shape. And that's why if I'm, I think a lot of Americans went, you know what, I sort of back Trump on the economy. I may not even like him. But I kind of think he knows what he's doing on the economies. When you say he doesn't know what he's doing, I do dispute that. He's got some incredibly smart guys there around him. I see them all the time, but these are smart people. I get what you're saying. And I, you know, look, I'm fair about the facts. So those three years were pretty good. So now you can say, hey, Jenk, that proves the case. But it doesn't prove the case.

But it might prove he knows what he's doing. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. So what I'm saying is, look, that time there was an establishment that was in the White House. And they frustrated him in a lot of ways. Half the time they were wrong, half the time they were right. But they were the brakes in the car. This is a car without any brakes.

So we're now in a Tesla with no brakes at all, almost a driverless car, and it's careening out of control because there's nobody to go, hey, brother, if you do 50% tariffs on Canada, the stock market's going to drop by 1,000 points. Everybody knows that. But everyone knows this is all negotiation going on, these tariffs, right? He is negotiating from a very strong position.

But he's the president of the United States. He's the biggest dog. He's the biggest dog in the race. But when I say 50 and then you say 25 within the same day once the stock market crashes, you look weak. Do you? Of course you do it. It depends what the other side do.

It makes everybody think, oh, he's bluffing. He's bluffing. We just wait him out. A lot of the time he's bluffing. He is often bluffing. Right. But the problem is, have you ever played poker? When you play, when you're playing against a bluffer, you love it. I've met New York real estate tycoons. And guess what? The art of the bluff is a real thing. It is, but it's an art. If you bluff on every hand, you're going to get called and you're going to lose all your money. Every poker player knows that.

He doesn't bluff all the time. He does nothing but bluffing. He negotiates all the time. Uh-huh. Yeah, he does. He does. Look, I don't mind the negotiation. And look, we've got a pendulum swinging. Because I feel with you, you've got a bit of a journey with Trump. I think you're far less. I may say so, without any hysterical about Trump than you were before. I do think you've calmed down about it because I think you do understand, as I've known him a long time, always focus on what Trump actually does rather than what he says in any given any given him to the President of the United States. But look how much he talks, not least to the media.

He's already done more talking, freewheeling chats with the media in America in his first five, six weeks than Obama and Biden. Biden did in their first six months, right? This is a guy who just chats away. He says the first thing that comes to his head a lot of the time. It's not presidential by the normal yardstick, but I think a lot of people find it quite refreshing. So, peers, the pendulum is swinging.

So Biden and the Democrats did absolutely nothing. And they always brag about how they do nothing. Oh, there's nothing we can do, right? Now, Trump is taking nonstop chaotic action, nonstop. It's a cyclone of action, right? So the country wants it, but they don't want it as chaotic as he's Well, the country's a bit like the stock markets. They're a bit freaked out by it.

They don't quite know what to make of it. Stock markets are a bunch of headless chickens, right? We know this. Yeah. Right? Good and bad, right? They can fly up and down on a heartbeat of what they call confidence. Well, we do know some things, fears.

We know that if you do a 50% tariff on Canada, the stock market's going to apply. If you genuinely think it's going to still be 50% in six months time. Yeah. I doubt it'll be there in six days. So you're asking the stock market to stop believing what Trump is saying. He's obviously lying all the time and bluffing. I must be a stock market to basically remember that it's better to focus on longer term with Trump

than in the short moment. One more thing, Pierce, but we've now had 50 days. So you're right, I'm much more open-minded and the left is attacking me for being open-minded. And I said, I'll hear Trump out, I'll hear Musk out. Are they really going to cut the Pentagon? But now the jury is coming in. Now they're saying, no, we're not going to cut the Pentagon. We were lying about that.

We're going to add $100 billion to the Pentagon. Are we still doing the $4.5 trillion dollar tax cuts to corporate executives? Yes, we are. Are we now starting to arrest people for criticizing Israel? Yes, we are. Well, let's come to that, because that's a That's a big story of the week. And we're going to be joined by another guest in a moment on this very point.

But this is this guy, Mahmoud Halil, who many think is now being held as a political prisoner. He fronts quite a radical group called the Columbia United apartheid divest, C-U-A-D, which sympathizes openly with terror groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, and has called for an end of Western civilization. They actually post it, and we've got this, we are Westerners fighting for the total eradication of Western civilization. We stand as full solidarity with every movement of liberation in the global South. Our interfaida is an intentionalist, one we are fighting, but nothing less than the liberation of all people. We reject every genocidal, eugenicist regime that seeks to

undermine the personhood of the colonized. And so it goes on. We joined by Nadine Kiswani. She's been on the show, of course, many times before. Nadine, great to have you back. a pro-Palestinian anti-Zionist activist of a group called leader of within our lifetime. So welcome to you. Let me start with you, Winston, on this. My only concern about this guy is that obviously when you read the wording of what this group, which he fronts, said there, it sounds on the face of it like a call for very violent action in Tefada, by definition, is violent. Others say that's not what he meant.

He means the structures of Western civilization, which he believes are oppressive. Do we need more meat on the bone about what he has said, supporting directly Hamas and so on, to justify what many think has been an attack on his First Amendment rights? Let me give you some more meat for the bone, as well as the statement you've read out. That group, the CUAD, have put out various statements,

including calling Operation Alexa Flood, i.e. October 7th, a, quote, moral, military and political victory. There are various statements across their Instagram, across their social media, across their substack, making equivalent such statements. Now, the reason I actually thought that they had gone too far in arresting him initially, because all of the evidence I found to show

that he might support a terrorist organization, i.e. Hamas, was consequential. Sorry, circumstantial, I should say. Now, why I've changed my mind is because he is not only been a spokesperson for the CUA, C-U-A-D, but he's also been one of their chief negotiators. Why that's important? Because according to Title 8 of the US Code, he is not allowed to, as he is not an American naturalized citizen, he is not allowed to, he is an alien. It counts as terrorist activity if an alien is a representative of a political, social, or other group

that endorses or espouses terrorist activity. So as far as I'm concerned... It's good news. Let's throw out all the Israeli supporters. You mentioned that. No, it's very interesting to mention it. Because in 2023, the Biden administration forbade Israelis getting past visas to come to America. This is basically not a free speech issue. It's an American sovereignty.

issue. Are they going to throw out the Israeli supporters that love terrorism and say that it's okay for Israel to kill 400 times the number of children that Hamas has? Israel's clearly more of a terrorist group. Before I go to Nadine, the key point is America has categorized Hamas as a terrorist organization. Correct. It does not categorize Israel in that way.

Well, okay, that's an argument, but it's not the reality of where we are with it at the moment. Nadine, let me bring you in here. I mean, you've been on these. Marches famously. I think you came on my show after you've been on one on the day of your wedding because you felt so passionately about this. Let's take a look at you here. We don't want to wait for them to teach about our genocide 20 years later when we to stop. Now, you were not a student of Columbia. You were a student at City University of New York. You've organized a number of protests outside Colombia, though.

The Jerusalem Post reported on April 21st that after your wedding, you managed to enter the campus, despite it being in a form of lockdown and led the crowd on a chant of there's only one solution into Fada Revolution, we just heard that. You were then banned from Colombia after that, and they said you were considered persona

due to alarming and concerning behaviour. On March the 6th this year, you said on next, be like students at Columbia and Barnard, fearless and unrelenting in the fight for Palestine, disrupt every Zionist event on your campus, and if you can't stand with those of us who do, the fames of revolution burn at Columbia

because they refuse to accept the status quo. Now, none of those words in themselves are necessarily an incitement to violence. But when you talk about an interfaida, then everyone who understands what an interfaida is would say that is a call for violent behavior, response, reaction, resistance, whatever you want to call it. Do you accept that interfada is a call to arms,

a call to violence? And the Fada is shaking off of oppression, and it's not just applied in the Palestinian context, but, you know, in Arab-speaking countries throughout, you know, whenever they're fighting against oppression, that's what intifada means. People talk about revolution in the context of fighting oppression in the U.S. for many other causes, from the black liberation, the black struggle for liberation, to, you know, immigrants fighting for their rights in this country. So, I mean, we've even heard Democrats talk about needing revolution, needing change.

But we know that Palestinians are uniquely targeted, not because, you know, the Palestinian struggle in the U.S. is violent, but because Palestinian descent or dissent to Israel's support for U.S. support for Israel and the ongoing genocide is consistently criminalized. We've seen this with the Holy Land Five Foundation, who are currently, many of them are still in prison for providing humanitarian aid to Gaza. We've seen this with the LA-8 case, who were also accused of supporting terrorism, but the case fell apart in court, even though the U.S. government tried to prove for 20 years

and couldn't prove for 20 years that speaking in support of Palestinian and Palestinian resistance. But do you accept that any country and any government would be perfectly within their rights if they have identified an organisation as a terrorist organisation, as America has with Hamas, for example, and that is how they're categorised,

that if you are openly supporting a terror organisation, as we saw that CUAD, which Mahmoud Halil France, has done publicly and with no apparent shame, that if you do that, then that country is entitled to deport you. because you're supporting openly a terrorist organization. We haven't seen CUAD do that, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. We just had a quote.

Hang on, Winston just read a quote which CUAD had posted, in which they described what happened October the 7th, as a victory. Okay, and that's Palestinian resistance broadly. They're not referring to any specific Palestinian group. They said a lack of floods specifically. We'll talk about examples. How many Americans, how many Irish Americans, supported the IRA. Do you see them getting deported for supporting the IRA in their time?

No, we didn't see that happen. So it's actually still under the purview of freedom of speech. But again, Palestinians even saying that they think Palestine should be free or chanting from the river to the sea are accused of things like anti-Semitism and terrorism. So I just see that as an extension of it. And honestly, all of their arguments are completely delegitimized because they just throw them out on anybody speaking in support of Palestinian liberation, no matter what. what they say. So, you know, I don't think that's a fair argument. Two things for Winston. One, the general point about free speech, you know, the Republicans have been extremely hot on free speech. People's right, especially Elon Musk, right? He's returned X, as he put it, to a platform that allows all opinion to be at. He has somebody who's expressing opinions that he may not like, and Donald Trump may not like and the government may not like, but their first reaction, it seems to many people

is to then chop them out of the country and suppress them. their right to free speech in America. That's an arguable point. But on the second point, which is an interesting one about the IRA, there's no doubt. You know, I'm an Irish Catholic. I can remember people on the streets of New York on St. Patrick's Day and other days, right? I can remember people openly supporting the IRA during those troubles. And they were a prescribed terror group. What's the difference? Well, the difference is that this is not a free speech issue necessarily. So, for example, as I've already quoted, what it is that is Mahmoud Khalil is being deported on, is that he broke the rules that he agreed to

when he came to America. He can continue saying what he wants. In fact, he could have said all that he said, or rather, no, he can't. He can't express support for mass. He could have expressed support for Palestine. He could even have been anti-Semitic, and it wouldn't have broken the rules. But specifically, he supported terrorist activity, a terrorist organization. And that broke the rules which he agreed to when he came to America. This is all nonsense. This is all nonsense. That's completely great.

Because they never investigated any Irish people on student visas. Any hold on, or any Irish people who are on green cards, they never, look, the PKK is a Kurdish terrorist organization. Did they investigate anybody who supports them? No, the only people that are investigated are people who criticize Israel. Who are we kidding? No, no, no, no, no, no. I want you to answer the question. Be honest and be serious.

Do you think that any other country or any other movement is investigated other than if you dare to criticize our special ally Israel because they buy all our politicians? That's so obvious. That's the most obvious thing in the world. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that, including every single mainstream media reporter in America, is an enormous liar.

It is the money talking saying, how dare you arrest anyone who dares to criticize Israel. In admit that that's true. If you don't admit that's true, then there's no point in this conversation. In 2020, in 2020, the Biden administration forbid Israelis from coming into America.

Oh, yeah, Biden's so tough on Israel. That's why you're going to take after all that. This is what Biden did be Israel. You're slaughtering countries for any country. You're obsessed with Israel. But what about the law being done by China? What about the lobbying done by Japan? What about the money from the Israeli lobby?

What about Pakistan? What about the lobbying? The Qatari's, the Emirati. All of these countries. Well, we get to commit to them. You're ignoring it. You're ignoring it. Unbelievable. Okay, look, look, America and everyone else in the world, now you're clear. I believe that Israel has disproportionate power in America because their lobby, for example, has given $337 million to Trump. Doesn't compare to what China, the China lobby.

Oh, of America. Don't compare to what. Wait, I'll give them a direct example. You've added up. The challenge, China is all of these countries. So, I want an example. Hang on, hang on. Let me just like make this last point in reverse of this.

Then Nadine. So this is the epitome of cancel culture. Sorry. Just like... Wait one second. The right. The right. One second.

Adeen, wait one second. Cheap first. This is the epitome of cancel culture, but we're canceling people on behalf of a foreign government. Mosque and Trump said that they were free speech absolutists, but now they say,

no, no, there's one exception, and there was always one exception. You'll get no obscene files. You'll get no freedom of speech. We'll do nothing but cancel culture, but always on behalf of the... beloved special ally Israel that has stuffed all of our pockets with millions

of them. On a technical point, on a technical point, Chang, is Winston not correct that if you're not a naturalized citizen of the United States, I happen to notice I'm an exceptional alien in your country. That's what it says on my visa. I don't complain about the wording. It is a bit weird. You call us exceptional aliens.

If I'm going to be an alien, I may as well be exceptional. But it's a very difficult process. It's a long process. It's an expensive process to become an exceptional alien in your great country. But if I was to suddenly start supporting an organisation that is a prescribed terrorist group in the United States, I would be in breach, as Winston said, of the criteria by which I signed up to to enter the country. So on that purely legal technical point, you might play water boundary with other

groups and say it hasn't been consistent. It's a perfectly rational argument to have. But is the US government in breach of his First Amendment rights? If they can establish he has supported openly Hamas, and that would go against all the paperwork he signed up to when he became a green card holder in America. Look at this trachanery. So Israel buys all of our politicians and says every group opposed to me, put them on a terrorist list. Even though I do 400 times worse terrorism, don't put me on the terrorism list. I said, don't play what a back for you? Now, all of you corrupt American politicians, put all of our enemies on a terrorist list. And on top of that, I want your money. Give me $300 billion. On top of that, I want you to attack all these guys that I'm calling

terrorists that are just Israel's enemies. So they completely control the American government in this direction, and I'm not interested in it. I dare you to challenge any other... Be in favor of any other terrorist group, you'll have zero problems in America. But if you say Israel, oh my God, oh, the money, the money. Come on, keep it real.

Just to repeat. Biden's top donor, Trump's top donor, Kamala's top donor. Like I said, there might well be many inconsistencies. That's a perfectly valid point to make. But on the specific question I asked you, is the government infringing on his First Amendment rights, Mahmoud Halil, if they can establish he supported Hamas, which is a prescribed terror group,

that would put him in breach of his entry requirements and criteria to become a green card holder. Are they not legally, well, hang on, under that pretext, are they not legally, hang on, hang on the deed. I'm going to come to you. Are they not legally in their rights to do it, in that eventuality? No. So I heard all the time from MAGA

that, hey, free speech isn't just about the First Amendment. It should also apply to social media and we should protect free speech no matter what. We should be free speech absolutist. And MAGA's actually been fairly consistent about this and that is why Trump is going to lose part of his base by constantly saying, I want to do cancel culture for Israel, I want to violate the First Amendment,

I want to violate free speech as long as Miriam Adelson keeps sending me checks. So no, this is against the principles of free speech in America. I don't care that Israel got a corrupt law. pass to make it illegal to criticize any, to criticize them or to support any of their enemies? And how many, hey, would Israel accept a 58-year occupation? And if any, if they dared to fight back, would we call them terrorists? Of course we wouldn't. Okay, let me bring in Adidine. Yeah, I mean, material support isn't, you know, applicable to free speech. Material support

requires way more than speech. So this idea that, you know, supporting a terrorist organization is not really applicable here. And if we look at organizations like the Jewish Defense League, which up until recently were considered a terrorist organization by the United States, they were able to openly operate in New York City, in the streets of New York City.

They've been counter-protesting within our lifetime protests for over 10 years and oftentimes joined by Israelis, by people who are not U.S. citizens, you know, coming and threatening us at our protests. One of the organizations that actually claimed to, work with the government to bring up Khalid's case, Batar is a nonprofit, 501C3 here in New York

City, offering people $1,800, a bounty on my head to give me a beeper, which obviously calls back to the beeper attacks on Lebanon, terrorist attacks that have left people blind and killed people, including children, right? Openly making these threats against American citizens like myself here in the streets of New York City, joined by Israelis, and not. Nothing is done about it, openly tolerated by the Democrats as well, not just the Republicans. So, you know, it's clear that, you know, not only is it a double standard, it's beyond that. We have never seen Palestinians in the calling for bombing of Israelis here in New York City.

Let me ask Winston this. We've seen Israeli organizations, Zionist organizations do that. I want to play a clip. This is you, Winston, on Gutfeld, a mutual friend of ours, Greg Gutfeld, a great guy, very funny guy, both done his show many times. This is the clip that you do, and Elon Musk responded to this. So let's watch the clip first, and I'll read his response. There's actually far more concerning what happening in England. In fact, England today is what America would be had elected Kamler as president.

And it's really, it's quite sad. I've been here for about two weeks. America is about lifting people up. It is not an envious country. England today is about tearing down the aspirational, tearing down those who want to do better with their life. And as a consequence, people are fleeing England. Things are even worse, actually.

A week ago, my lawyer back home called me up and said, two of your tweets are technically illegal. You could be arrested when you return. Elon Musk posted after that, Britain's turning into a police state, so he was enraged about this infringement on your rights to free speech, even about contentious issues, wisdom. So the tricky question, I think, for you, and for Elon Musk, if he was here,

would be, well, what really is the difference here? because a lot of people were hoovered up in the riots in England, of course, last summer for saying inflammatory things online and supporting in some cases the violence. I've given quite extensive prison sentences. Many would say, well, the rage that people felt, particularly Elon Musk, actually, over the infringement on their free speech rights, does not sit very well with what's now happening to Mahmoud Halil. Okay, so in Britain we have the Terrorism Act 2000.

It's forbidden to support. terrorist organization. In this case, obviously we're talking about Hamas. Your guest, Nadine, she is entitled to support terrorist organization in America because they have the First Amendment. They have a different law. But the Mahmoud Khalil

is a different situation because he, as we have already discussed, came in and under the U.S. Code, Title 8, I believe it is, he is forbidden from supporting terrorist organizations. Because he's not American citizen. Because he's not an American citizen. And may I continue. But may I continue. Should he be canceled?

where he broke those rules. So you're saying he should be careful. So then my question to you is, should the law about this title, U.S. Code 8, where the American executive government have power to control who is not in their country, should that be revoked?

For example, last year, five Chinese students were forbidden from entering into Biden's America. No reason was given. As I said, the year before, Biden forbade Israelis of a certain political persuasion for coming into America. Do you want the executive order

to have power over the American borders or not? But we let Nanyahu the world's biggest terrorists in, and we let him into Congress and get him a standing ovation. Israel is not prescribed. That's exactly my problem with this law. But Winston, that's exactly my problem

with the law. So now that we're saying let's rigged the law in favor of Israel. So then when we apply it, we go, hey, there was already a law. We had already rigged it in favor of Israel. law is not applied to anyone outside of opponents of Israel. Do you agree that? So by the way, American

citizens, they're going to come for you next. Of course I do. I also think Israel's a terrorist organization. I object because I actually care about free speech. Because Americans, they're going to come for you next. They're going to come for you next. Don't you dare criticize Israel. They'll call you an anti-Semite. They'll give you a scarlet letter A.

That's the new scarlet letter for A for anti-Semite. And they'll fire you, they'll cancer you, they'll arrest you, they'll deport you, they'll do all these things, because Israel First, America 18. Okay, let me ask you. Medine, they've been doing that's a Palestinian.

One of her protests outside of Navarra music festival commemoration was so, it's so terrible and anti-Semitic that even AOC, the progressive politician, decided that she had gone too far and that the organization.

But she has her free speech to do that. She has her free speech, and she's So she's not a measure of the Palestinian freedom of speech. I don't know why you're bringing her up or as if we're aligned with the Democrats when we've been protesting against the Democrats for the last 16 months who set up all the dominoes that created for this to happen in the first place. She's not an ally to the Palestinian movement by the stretch that we expect people to be, especially when the U.S. is providing the funds and the weapons to kill the Palestinian people.

You are allowed to say it. You as an American citizen were entitled to. There's not anything anti-Semitic about my behavior. The difference is with Mahmood-Kahlia is that he's not. It's not anti-Semitic to say that I don't believe that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, that millions of Palestinians should be displaced, should be killed, should be bombed, should be not given access to food and water like we've seen in Ghazah for the last 11 days. They've been under even stricter blockade, not allowing electricity in during the month of Ramadan,

people are continuously starving. But that is not why he's being... So there's nothing anti-Semitic for me to bring that up. with deportation. I mean, my question for you would be, Nadine, I've asked you this before, and I'm interested if you've got the same answer or not. But I mean, do you personally, right now, do you support Hamas? I don't condemn and I don't tell people who are living under occupation, living under genocide, how they can resist their occupation. You know, I've never, I've never, I've never publicly expressed support for any specific parties or groups in Palestine, including the

Palestinian authority even. But I support all people who are oppressed to resist their oppression. You can't tell people that they don't have the right to defend themselves. But you do accept, you do accept if you're not prepared to condemn a group like Hamas, then you are de facto supporting them. I'm not

going to condemn anybody who's defending themselves. And I won't condemn my people, who are the victims of this? Well, they do. I'll give a... Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. You guys condemn Israel? Hang on. Hang on. Nadine. So did you condemn what they did on October the 7th? Again, I think a lot of what we saw about October the 7th was actually

lies and they've been disproven. Wow. So, you know, I don't know what conversation we're having here. They are. So 40 beheaded babies lies was disproven. The charred babies lies. Do you think the 1,000 people? Okay, well, let me be specific to you. Do you think, let me be specific with my question. We've seen Palestinian rape. Hang on. That's what I can. Do you believe that three thousand? Do you condemn Israel genocide against Palestinians? Let me ask you a question, then respond. That's how this works. Do you believe that 3,000 Hamas terrorists crossed the border on October 7th in three different phases and attacked indiscriminately any Israelis, in particular Jewish Israelis, they could get their hands on, that they murdered 1,200 people, that they wounded, some of them irreparably, in terms of injuries that will never be recovered from, nearly 7,000 more people, that they captured and kiddied. two hundred and fifty-odd people, including a baby, including Holocaust survivors. So do you accept those basic facts?

I mean, the U.S. government is currently negotiating, you know, the continuous ceasefire with Hamas. And so it's clear that, you know, whatever actions were taken. Nadine, I just ask you if you accept those facts. I don't, like I said, it's clear whatever actions they've taken, and I'm not sure, you know, what part of all of those facts are. that is or isn't true. There's been a lot of propaganda,

but it's clear that that was a response to oppression since 1948 to when Israeli groups, Zionist groups, went to Palestinian villages like mine. So just to be clear, you don't condemn that. Even worse than that. So you cannot condemn what they did that day. Like I said, I can't condemn

what has been repeatedly put in the media. We've heard you loud and clear. What I don't know is true. What I don't know to be true. I know. I don't condemn people fighting for their liberation. I mean, we literally saw what they did through their own GoPro videos

that they beamed to the world of them murdering innocent people. They literally beamed it in real time to the world. They wanted us to see it. They were proud of it. Do you condemn the Hannibal directive that was directed towards their own people? If Israel cared about their hostages so much,

why do they continuously bomb Gaza Wilde? they're there. I believe a lot of what we saw on October 7 actually came from the Israeli side. Okay, Winston, the Hannibal directive is a perfectly valid point that it does appear that certain leaders on the Israeli side are now conceding. There was a Hannibal directive, which is that they would basically stop their own people from being kidnapped, and if it meant taking their lives and that eventuality, that would have to happen. And there is some evidence that may have happened with some of the people who were killed. So let's be clear, right?

I try and be very fair-minded about this. I go where the facts take us. The 40 beheaded babies turned out not to be true. It was stated as facts by an Israeli member of the Israeli forces. It turned out to be untrue. It is true, however, that some people were beheaded. It is true that babies were kidnapped. So these things are all a question of scale.

I am very happy to condemn all of it, because it was all a despicable act of terrorism. Winston, when you hear someone like Nadine who is defending this guy's right to be in America, when you see her, so in my opinion, people can have their own view about the way she's responded, but so glibly brush off what Hamas did that day. This has always been my problem with this debate.

If you just cannot find it in yourself, check, if I asked him, would condemn what happened that day because he has done repeatedly. And then you can have a rational conversation. If you can't condemn it and you put it all down, under some form of resistance or opposition, you lose me. Winston.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know really what to respond to that. It's clear what happened on October 7th. And from what little research I've done into Nadine's work, she seems to have supported what happens at October. It's not that she's not even condemned. You know, there's not just one day in the world, right? I mean, so you guys keep talking about October 7. You would condemn what happened, right?

Yeah, of course. But as if, but you guys condemn the 58. your brutal occupation of the Israelis, butchering, slaughtering, oppressing the Palestinians? Do you condemn that they've killed 14,500 children, 4,350 children under the age of five, 800 babies under the age of one? They've incinerated them alive.

So can you now be honest and fair and say that Israel is clearly a terrorist state? I will be honest and fair. I think that Israel's right to self-defense has now gone too far. I think I've been saying this for months. I think they have killed too many innocent civilians. They keep saying that they have proportionally,

it's been better than any other modern urban warfare, to which I respond. Actually, there is a massively disproportionate number of children, i.e. under 18s in Gaza, half the population of 2 million is under 18. And therefore, the proportion of children who've been killed as a total of the casualties is like on a scale we haven't seen in modern times

in any urban warfare. So, yes, I think they've gone way too far. I also think, as I said from the start, what's the end game? What's the plan? For after this, two-thirds of Gaza's been obliterated, right? There's evidence from the American intelligence that actually, for every Hamas terrorist who's been killed, they've already filled it with someone with similar ideology.

So the ideology has certainly not been eliminated, nor have Hamas. When we see the hostages being released, there's massive displays by people who look very much and sound very much like Hamas terrorists. So there are lots of things, Chang, that I'm very happy to criticize about what Israel's done. What I won't do, what I won't do is say that they didn't have a fundamental right-stroke duty to defend their people after the appalling atrocities of October the 7th.

Because Hamas had said they're going to carry on doing it. Because Hamas is an official spokesman said we're going to do this again and again and again. Here, then do the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves? You say Israel does. When Hamas, in their mind, defends the Palestinians, you say they're no good terrorists. If anybody ever says a kind word about them, they should be arrested and deported.

I think the honest... But when Israel does 400 times worse than Hamas, they've gone too far. I wouldn't call them terrorists. You're allowed to support them and their terrorism anyway you like. Well, in the 75 years or so of this conflict, right? There have been five flare-ups of war that people accept were flare-ups of war.

It would be hard to argue they haven't all been orchestrated by the Palestinian side. Would you accept that? In other words, the actual flare-ups of war... No, I don't accept that. You don't accept that? No, I don't accept that.

Palestinians or pro-Palestinian groups or Arab groups have actually been responsible for the outbreaks of warfare. No, I don't accept that. One percent. So, first of all, if I occupy you in a prison for 58 years and you try to break out five times, I wouldn't blame you for it.

But even so, but even so, but even so, but even so, no. So Israel, for example, on October 7th, we know that they had the intelligence on October 7th, the greatest intelligence agency in the whole world, and so why did they let it happen? Spectacular failure. No, it's not. It was a spectacular success

for their mission to grab Gaza and the West Bank. That's nonsense. That's nonsense my ass. What are they doing now? So, Pierce, will you admit that once they try to push the Palestinians out and take Gaza for themselves, that it was never about self-defense, it was always

about stealing Palestinians. which is what they have done over and over and over again since 1948. Yeah, the idea that the Israelis knew what was going... Hang on, hang on, hang on. Sorry, just to respond to that, the idea that the Israelis knew that October 7 was going to happen and deliberately allowed it to happen to their own people is preposterous. Some people in the Israeli government who are literally terrorists like Ben Gavir, absolutely. Netanyahu, I think, is literally the largest errors in the world right now.

You're telling me, Netanyahu wouldn't do that. Ninahou lied us into their Iraq war. He talked about weapons of mass destruction. He talked about how they did 9-11 when, in fact, Saddam Hussein was opposed to al-Qaeda. So that giant liar that lied America into the Iraq war as part of the neocons wouldn't lie to his own people to protect himself from corruption charges, from protecting himself from a very, very unpopular leadership. Well, aside from the fact that they have an excuse,

an excuse to steal more Palestinian land, that is exactly what Nanyahu is done. Let me ask, hang on the deal. They should know that oppressing Palestinians would result in people defending themselves. They should know that. And I've said this on your show before. As long as there is oppression, there is going to be Palestinian resistance to it. As long as there's an occupation, apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing, Palestinians are going to take whatever means they have to defend themselves. We don't have an army because we don't have a state because the U.S. and Israel continuously blocks that from happening.

So yes, when Palestinian militias come together to defend themselves, they're going to be considered. terrorist organizations because there is no means for us to be able to lawfully do that, which is exactly the situation that they created. So yes, they are going to expect that it, that it's going to happen, whether they have the intelligence or not, but I do know that they had the intelligence. We do believe they had the intelligence to know that an attack like October 7th was imminent and that Palestinians are going to continue to resist regardless. That's in the Israeli papers. All right. Now, wait a listen. Final word to you here. I would just ask you a difficult question, I guess, which is, in the

There are many people who are absolutely of the view that Israel should continue until the last Hamas terrorists has gone. Many in Israel feel that. They're not as keen on Yahoo, for example, but they're absolutely keen on the mission to get rid of Hamas and the trauma that Israel suffered that day cannot be underestimated. However, if you look at the conflict in totality, it is hard to argue, particularly in light of events this week where Israel has just casually turned off the power into Gaza, which made me ask some questions, X. Well, hang on, who gives them the right to have that right to turn the power on and off into Gaza? And it turns out that they control more than 50% of all the electricity that Gaza has and turned

off 90% of that almost immediately after October the 7th. So the Egotby's, look, there are guilty Hamas terror is there. There are also many, many hundreds of thousands of perfectly innocent, particularly children living there who have had almost no power now, are now getting no fuel coming in. There have been limitations on water. The power that was coming in was being used to provide clean water. That's now been withdrawn. None of this strikes me as being a reasonable thing for Israel to be doing now. Does it you?

Okay, so I think to understand the electricity thing, there's a bit of background needs to be understood. Firstly, why is it that Gaza doesn't have more power plants? One of the reasons is that they have spent many billions of their donations building up a vast terror network. That is true. Yeah. And their own military.

Another question is why is it that Egypt aren't supplying electricity to Gaza? The reason is even Egypt themselves recognize Hamas as a Muslim Brotherhood affiliated organization. And they are incredibly wary of that organization. Then as well as understanding that, you've got to understand the ceasefire negotiations that have broken down. But do you accept any criticism of what is? Israel is doing. Now, I think that they are back in conflict because ceasefire has failed. Both sides, now, look, if you go into why the ceasefire has failed, Israel. Well, there's arguments on both sides. Israel obviously only got 22 of the promised 33 hostages.

Hamasah, they would clear the Fidelphi passage. Israel won't withdraw because they're going to take Gaza. Israel's definitely, definitely have grievances. May I? Israel have grievances about the phase one of the ceasefire failing, so they've been unable to get to phase two of the ceasefire. Should they be turning off the power into Gaza? Now that the ceasefire has failed, the conflict has been taken up. They're starving them to do.

Ask the question. You want them start the death. Are a normal part of war. We've been a normal part of war. No, it's a war crime. I'm glad you brought up Nazi Germany. That's exactly what the Germans would have done. Cut off their food.

The Britishmen. incinerate their kids because that's what they did. They put them in and incinerated the Jews during the Holocaust. It was heartbreaking. Jews have suffered so much throughout history. Now Israel turns around and pretends to me the Jewish state and says, I speak for all Jews.

No, you don't. You don't speak for my Jewish friends. You don't speak for my Jewish family. And you've actually greatly tainted them. And I despise Israel for that. Now Israel says we get to starve children to death. We get to burn them to death. We get to crush their skulls. No, no, you have become what you most despised.

So please stop. I know that there's nothing we could do because you bought every single politician in America, but I'm asking you to have morality and remember your Jewish faith, which is a wonderful faith that is giving and generous and talks in Passover about even having mercy for the people who kept you as slaves. Can you not have mercy for the people that you are keeping as slaves? How long are you going to occupy them? Answer that question. How long are you going to occupy them?

You are brutalizing them. 58 years. You've kept them in a dark dungeon. And any time they dare to oppose you, you cut off their water, and you cut off. And you kill their children. Israel, you should be better than this. They've done this.

But you know, listen, listen, listen, also I would say, Chek, hang on, hang on the day. I would say, Chek, in response to that, we've got to wrap things up. So it's been a very interesting debate. But you could also look at Hamas, who have governed Gaza for 20 years. They were given $6 billion, right?

All with Netanyahu's apparent happiness because you wanted to split them from the Palestinian Authority. Okay, whatever. Put the politics aside. $6 billion. And what do they do with it? They did nothing to improve the lives of Palestinian people.

Quite the opposite. They built a sophisticated... They did, and it was bombed. Hang on. Hang on. They built a sophisticated tunnel network around Gaza, embedded themselves in civilian population areas. So they knew, when they committed the acts they did on October the 7th,

they knew that Israel would respond with incredible force because they would have felt compelled to. And in that moment, they knew that many, many, many thousands, tens of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza would get killed. And they didn't give a damn. And the people who were safe were Hamas hiding in the tunnels. It wasn't the innocent civilians, including all the innocent kids that you talk about who've been killed, which is utterly heartbreaking. But if they had been properly looked after by Hamas, this wouldn't have happened either.

So let's just put things. Yeah, so you're asking a question. No, no, I'm not. I'm making a statement. I'm going to leave it there because you had your... I would drive out Hamas. I would bring in Fatah, make a deal with them. Two-state solution. Fata would then have the credibility

to be able to drive him off south. Well, I agree with you about the two-state solution. I'm not sure that he's the guy. They're bombing the West Bank. They're still bombing the West Bank. Yeah, I don't agree with... By the way, I don't agree with that, Nadine. I don't agree with the expansion of settlements in the West Bank.

I think it's all outrageous. I want this over. We all want it over. Except Israel. Who wants the land? There are certainly people in that cabinet who do not, I think, want it over. I think that cabinet is filled with terrorists. And they love this.

I think some of them are. despicable people. We've got to leave it there. Thank you all very much. Check, great to have you in London. Thank you. Good to see you've lost none of your passion. It doesn't matter where you are geographically. That's good to see. Nadine, thank you for joining me. I appreciate it. And Winston, good to see you. Carlos Gohn is known to millions of people around the world for two big reasons. First, The Escape, three hit documentaries that charted his cinematic exit from Japan, where he fled charges of financial misconduct by first disguising himself and then hiding inside a large box with help of a special forces veteran. And second, of course, the cars. Carlos Gomes revered in the business world

his revival of Nissam and his remarkable leadership of Renault. Some called him the king of cars. Some called him the god of cars. The French called him LeCost Killer. Now, the first time, is Le Nex guest on Pierce Morgan Uncensored. Mr. Gown, welcome to Uncensored. Thank you, Pierce. My first question is a simple one. How are you? Look, I can't complain. I'm fine. Living obviously in an environment which, as you know, is extremely turbulent with the war in the country. I was at war a few months ago. But it looks like things are going into the right way. So I can't complain. When you look back on that crazy time in your life, and I realize a lot of it is still ongoing in terms of legal actions and so on. But can you quite believe how fast you went from why, one status to another. Well, you know, this was obviously a plot in accident.

It happened. It has been carefully prepared for more than one year in a way that didn't give me any suspicion about what was going on. But frankly, the explanation is very simple. There were two conflicting ideas about the future of Nissan in 2018. One, which was shared by some executive in Nissan with the Minister of Industry of Japan and also with the agreement of Tsugasan who at that moment was you know the number two guy in the government

that they need to take Nissan out of the control of Renault. From the other side you had the French administration the Macon administration who really was pushing for a merger and they had a big influence on the Renault board and they are the main shareholder of Renault and I was in the middle I didn't believe in one or the other. I thought that any one of them would be very dangerous for the future of Nissan. I wanted just to strengthen the alliance,

but maintaining the two identities totally separate. And at a certain point in time, because the Japanese, when the French asked me to renew my mandate, four years mandate in 2018, the Japanese took it as this is the moment to eliminate the cornerstone or the pillar of the alliance, which I represented, in order to take back control on Nissan.

And frankly, they won. They want to take back control of Nissan, but you know exactly what happened after. I'm going to come to exactly what happened after. I did think of you yesterday when I saw President Trump and Elon Musk on the lawn of the White House having what appeared to be a sales conference

for Musk's company Tesla. You must have been watching all this with great fascination. To see Elon Musk, who is the biggest western producer of green cars there's ever been, one of the most successful business guys in the world, now coming under increasing heat politically, which is having a negative effect on Tesla sales and on his reputation. When you've watched this going down, what's your feeling about it? Look, I've known Elon Musk for a very long time because he was at the same time,

an ally and the competitor because we were the two first guys to really believe into the electric cars, into the zero emission cars. He started it through a startup. I introduced it through the Leaf, which was Nissan Leaf, which was the first zero emission mass marketed car in the world. And we started together. So obviously we were competing on the same field, but at the same time we were ally because we were defending the idea of electric car and the idea of the necessary. to bring a zero emission car. And frankly, I have a lot of respect for him because he has been extremely tenacious.

He had a lot of problems at the beginning. You know that Tesla practically collapsed a couple of times and he came back to it and, you know, when today you see him as the main producer of electric car, you know, I have a lot of respect for him. Now, the fact that today he's dedicated time on top of his music multiple responsibility to a political mission to serve President Trump. It also something which require from myself anyway.

I have a lot of respect of that. Because frankly, I don't know how he can handle everything. And I've seen him on TV recently. When somebody asked him, you know, can you do all of this? He said, well, you know, I'm suffering through all the responsibilities, which is frankly respectable because he's sacrificing his own interest. That means he's CEO of many companies in order. to execute a mission, which is a tough mission,

which is, in fact, reducing the cost of the American state. When you know what is the level of the depth of the U.S. and what is the level of the budget deficit of the U.S., you can understand that it takes somebody extraordinary to undertake this task, and understand the respect that President Trump has for him because he has done so many things in the past, he can do this mission.

But you're somebody that was accused, are taking on too much yourself. Do you think Elon Musk has taken on a little bit too much here? Is it now spreading him too thinly? Is that what's causing damage, for argument's sake, to Tesla and its business performance? Look, frankly, the multiple mission I had, nothing to do with what Musk is doing. I mean, I was managing three companies.

Two of them was Japanese, one was French, but in the same field. So I had to use the same in a certain way, knowledge. the same content on the same market. He is managing a car company, is managing a space company, he's managing many other company, many companies, and on top of these taking this tremendous charge. So I don't think we're comparable. I'm a small multitasker compared to him. Now, when I see the reaction of the market recently on the shares of Tesla, it's obvious that it has nothing to do with the concept, it has nothing to do with the company. This is due to the worry that shareholders have on the fact that

Elon Musk is not consecrating enough time to his company. That's what the market is saying and that is translating into the drop of the share. Is that true, do you think? Is it true? Do you think they're right to be concerned about that? Well, I'm not a shareholder of Tesla, I must tell you. So I cannot put myself in the shoes. But obviously, I can tell you that a lot of the shareholders I had from Renault and Nissan when I

I was managing both companies. They're worried about the fact that I was managing two companies. But as long as I was performing and delivering the results and the company are doing well, their anxiety was calm by the results. You know, at the end of the day, we as business people were just on a very simple set of results. If they are good, you're good. If they're not good, you're out. So as long as he delivers, I think there will be no problem.

Have you heard from Elon Musk since you fled to Lebanon? Unfortunately not. No, I didn't hear from him. Were you disappointed? No, that means we are in different worlds in a certain way. He has his own responsibility. No, I'm not disappointed. But I know from many people who have participated to dinner with him and conversation with him, that he was always very positive about me.

I mean, you've been through a life experience, Carlos, which is a cliche, but it's true. You often find out who your real friends are. Have you been surprised at some people who you thought were friends, who turned out not to be very loyal to you, and other people, perhaps, conversely, who you didn't think were that close to you, who turned out to be incredibly loyal? Well, I can tell you, that means I was very disappointed by many, many, many people,

which I was expecting this, but not at this number and not at this level. And usually the people who surprised me positively are people who were at the lower level of the organization that I directed and showed me a real loyalty and a real engagement because they were really very upset by the way I have been treated. But the biggest disappointment came, as you can understand, from the Macron administration, who, when I was arrested in Japan, for three weeks, hesitated, and then they had to make a decision, confront the Japanese authorities, or just drop me.

And they decided to drop me, and they announced it in a very clear announcement where they said the interest of France and the relationship between France and Japan are much bigger than the fate of any individuals. So they just let me down. You know, I was not a tourist going, visiting Japan. I was visiting Japan at the head of the alliance,

the CEO of Reno. And the fact that I was dropped like this under the so-called all-level. alleged, a misconduct, the financial misconduct they, frankly, they did not believe in. Because if you want to come back to the charge for which I was arrested, it was really ridiculous. I was arrested for a, as you know, for an amount of money which was not quantified, not decided, and not paid. It took me two weeks to understand what was the charge. I frankly thought that I was missing something.

But that's what it. And they left me 23 days under interrogation on the simple charge. And after this, because of the weakness of the charge, I started to bring something else. It was not a surprise. They told me all the time. Prosecutor told me all the time. If you don't confess to this charge, we're going to bring something else. We're going to implicate your family.

We're going to implicate your friends. And you're going to regret it. And I said, no, because this is where I discovered how the hostage justice system in Japan works. It's based on confession. Once they are arresting you, they want you to confess. They don't care about the rest. And this is how they get 99.4% conviction rate by just terrorizing the people they arrest and telling them that they're going to be,

have to pay a much higher price if they don't confess to it. There's lots of footage of you with President Macron in The Good Times when he was keen to celebrate you as one of the most successful business. people engaged, obviously, with a lot of French business as well through Renault. It sounds to me, like President Macron, when push came to shove, shud you under a massive bus. Look, it's true. That's the way, anyway, I'm perceiving it.

Because obviously, you're going to say, yeah, it's the board, et cetera, no, at the end of the day, you know that this kind of decision always come to the top level. And I think they truly thought that by bending the knees in front of the Japanese, that would be able to safeguard the alliance. But the Japanese played them because, as you know, after Macron put his minion as chairman of the board of Reno, and they came and they made a big celebration

with Nissan and Mitsubishi about this new alliance that they were going to continue. In fact, it was just a masquerade because you know that the alliance immediately became frozen. No collaboration took place. It's a zombie. Nobody talked about it. Reno came back to what it was in 1999,

a small regional company selling 2.2 million cars with frankly no future. And Nissan is in a total disarray. So that's, you know, and this means, just to take an example, Nissan lost 60% of its market cap between 2018 and today. Okay, so this, and they lost more than 40% of their sales. But behind all of this, you have shareholders losing a lot of money, You have employees losing their job. You have suppliers struggling because of this.

You have distributors. You have community. And nobody talks about all this damage, which has been counted in billions of dollars, that unfortunately a bad strategy, bad decision, and the plot has driven to. What are your feelings about Emmanuel Macron today? Disappointment, obviously. But it's okay. Obviously, that means the Japanese which organized the crime and the plot,

and it took them one year to prepare it. You know, so obviously they have committed, in my opinion, what destroyed the alliance and de facto destroyed Nissan and they're paying the consequence of it. But obviously, I'm bitter about the fact that the French did nothing to support me. I was a kind of collateral damage, which contribution to a major company in France

was forgotten very quickly. The question I'm most fascinated to ask you is when you made your dramatic escape in a big audio sound box that the special forces people who were helping you do this, they'd already wrecked the private jet area. They knew that a box like that probably wouldn't be checked by the x-ray machines and therefore they could get you in and onto the plane without detection. But there must have been a moment as you're going through there in this box. of unbelievable tension. What were you thinking as you were being carried in this box through to the plane? Look, I was extremely focused. I was very tense because this was the key moment

when the box was going through customs to get out to the plane. And the question was, are they going to open the box or they're going to let it go? So it's a few seconds. They are intense. you are extremely attentive to anything that could happen to say, okay, what's my plan B if they open the box? Fortunately for me, they didn't do it. And, you know, they didn't do it because we,

this plan was very efficiently executed and with a lot of subtlety because we decided to leave at, you know, on the 30th of December, where usually the normal employees are not here and they're being replaced by temporary people because these are the vacation of the end of the year. And temporary people don't take extraordinary measures. You know, they said, okay, let's go.

And then when the box started to move, and I heard the engine of the plane roaring, I knew that, you know, 90% of it was sold. And I was about to open a new chapter in my life. I reflected on it, you know, a lot of achievement, but also a lot of betrayals. But now I was ready to be able to defend myself. Don't forget, Pierce, I stayed practically one year without being able to open my mouth. I could not make a press conference.

I could not talk to any press. They had all the platform for them. I'm talking about Nissan. I'm talking about the Japanese government. I'm talking even about the Renault and the French government who decided to support them for them. telling how much, you know, this functions and how much of problems there were, there was, even though with companies which were doing very well, they were profitable, they were growing, they were at the top level of the industry. And when you look five years later, four years,

where these companies are, you know, with much less sales, much less production, lower market capitalization, Nissan made in 2018 practically six billion dollars of profit, and now I've been told that their provision for this year is none or even negative. It's amazing. I mean, there's no doubt you were brilliant at your job. I don't think anyone can test that. The part of your story that people still deliberate over, and obviously we may never get to have this aired in a courtroom,

so we may never get to reality, only you know, really, what the reality was. But what people who like you but are still critical of you say is that perhaps you got too big for your own good, too successful, and that the line between spending company money, strictly on company business, blurred into extending that to spending money on yourself and your family and having a good time, and that you consider that to be a legitimate perk of the job

because you were not being paid by the Nissan end, by the Japanese end, what you felt you should have been paid. What do you say to that? Yeah, look, first I was arrested on one single charge. There was nothing else, which was that was accusing me of not declaring an amount that was neither quantified, neither decided, neither paid. Then, after this, immediately after this, they started what we call the character assassination, which is a very classical approach. You know, I was very known and liked in Japan. I was very known globally, even in France, maybe not as liked as in Japan in France, because I was very known.

I was a kind of very weird person, a hybrid person with very different methods from the classical management in France. But they needed to make the character assassination. You know that Bloomberg said in an article that Nissan paid more than $300 million to take me down, $300 million. For so-called avoiding to pay $80 million, this is the estimate that they put even though it was not decided or quantified, of retirement. I mean, it doesn't make sense. And taking the risk of collapsing the company which they were successful in doing. Now on my lifestyle, people said, yeah, you know what, here has his own plane. Without plane, I could not do three jobs on two different continents. It was not possible. The shareholders knew that. The different houses, well, these houses

were owned by Nissan put to me to my own work and to be able to travel and work in a very secret and confidential way. I used to have a lot of meetings. So come on, all of this was forgotten. You know the story about Versailles, which took place in 2014. It was a kind of ceremony for the 15 years of the lines.

You know, it took place in 2014. There were about 300 guests. It was known in all the newspaper. Everybody knows about it. And you know very well that the accounting of the expenses of the CEO are very, very, very. scrupulously followed by all the different auditors

who are following large company like Renault or like Nissan. So nothing happened in 2014. It was in all the newspaper, everybody was happy. They came back with this story in 2018 after I was arrested by saying, oh, you know what? At the end of the day, it was the birthday party. It was not the alliance.

And many guests which were invited should not be here. I mean, this is what I call character assassination. What they said, Carlos, what they said about the Versailles' party was that actually nobody from Renault or Nissan were there, just you, and it was a private party for you and your friends. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. This is totally wrong.

This is fake news. The party in Versailles took place in 2014, I had 300 guests. From the 300 guests, you had about 240 people who were all people from outside France who came because they supported the creation of the lines. I had American senators. I have British politicians. I have dealers from Thailand.

I think was the point. Were they employees of the companies? Yeah, but you know what? Because no, yeah, let me tell you why. There was no employee of the company because we had the second party to celebrate the 15 years of the Lions. But obviously nobody is going to tell you about it

that took place in Tokyo. Obviously, I made the party for outside world all the people who were our supporters in Paris, in Versailles. But there was another party that took place two weeks later in Japan for the executive committee and all the members from inside who contributed to the lines. But nobody's going to talk to you about it. So I'm saying, oh, you know, what kind of party is this?

Because there was no employee. Well, there was a different party for the employees that took place. We have a record of it. All the executive, the joint executive committee took place. The joint corporate officer took place. But it took place in Tokyo. If you had your time again, would you have been so extravagant? in your spending?

Or would you have been more cognizant that this could become, it could become a stick to beat you with? Pierce, you know, I had done, as you know, I've been CEO of Nissan for 18 years. I've been CEO of Renault for practically 13 years, okay? The only thing they pulled on me was one event, the one event.

They talked about other events. but there were traditional event made before me and continue after me, particularly into the Renocide. I don't think I was an extravagant CEO, and I'm going to tell you why, because I didn't have time to be extravagant. I used to manage three companies. I had many crises all the time. I had at least one company in crisis at a certain point in time, if not two or three. So I hadn't time for that. Even if I wanted to be extravagant, I couldn't be extravagant. In September last year, a court ordered you to return your yacht and to pay damages to Nissan of $32 million. Have you done those two things?

No, no. That means we obviously obstruct this. We made an appeal and we are defending the case. This is a very legalistic point of view. I don't think they have any right on this one. And I think I'm going to prevail on this one. And because it continues in court. I can tell you, that means it's still under my control and I'm still using it. And Carlson, how rich are you? Well, much less than I was before, because I can tell you that between the lawyers that you have to pay, plus, you know, that I had to pay the highest bail in Japan of any individual that ever existed, which means that the wrath of the prosecutor in Japan was such that they really wanted to punish me under different angles.

You know, and obviously it costs a lot of money to defend yourself. Unfortunately, if you want justice to prevail when you're fighting against the company, you have to pay a lot of money. And, you know, a big part of what I had has been spent and continued to be spent for this. But just to tell you about the wrath of the prosecutor and the rage that they have, you know very well that my wife, Carol, has a red notice on her. And it's interesting that the red notty said she has, had a perjury against her own memory because she said to the judge when she was interrogated that she don't remember knowing a certain person. And they said, no, no, you should remember because you received a message or a WhatsApp message

from this person four months ago. So after she was interrogated, they let her go. And the prosecutor said she's not a suspect. Six months later, six months later, when I arrived in Lebanon and there were three, furious about it. They and when I announced a press conference, they slapped her with the red notice and they are absolutely refusing to transmit to the Lebanese authorities the reasons for which they have done it and they are not accepting to cooperate in order to remove it. And she has been trapped in the country for five years. She's an American citizen. Five years. I mean, how much of a weaponization

of justice, what kind of of a superb demonstration of weaponization of justice and going after you through your loved ones. So, Carlson, I mean, as things stand, you can't leave Lebanon and nor can your wife by the sound of it. And that may be just an ongoing situation. Are you happy to spend the rest of your life potentially in Beirut, in Lebanon?

Look, you know, I love Lebanon. I'm very at ease in the Lebanese society, which received me very well. Lebanese people are very supportive. that they are shocked by the lack of recognition towards me from the Japanese and also from the French. And it's expressed to me under different angles. This being said, I would love to regain my freedom. I would love to go back, be able to go back to Brazil to see my mother and see my sisters.

I would love to be able to visit, spend some of the, some time for me visiting the world. I visited the world, I visited many countries in the world, but always it was as a, It was as a professional, as a CEO, it's not the same thing. Yes, I'm still fighting to regain my freedom as well as the freedom of my wife, because I think that this is not about justice here. This is about revenge. Because if this was about justice, that means the Japanese authority would have transferred all these so-called accusation to the Lebanese authorities,

so I can finally be judged and the truth would appear. But they refuse to do it. They just want to punish you. They say, no, you know what? If you want us to remove it, you have to come back to Japan. I mean, this is a completely rotten system. I don't know if you remember, but when I arrived to Lebanon, the Minister of Justice of Japan said he needs to come back to Japan to prove his innocence. I mean, I mean, this is a Minister of Justice forgetting the fact that one of the basic human rights is when there is an accusation against you, the prosecutor have to prove that you're guilty. You don't have to prove that you are innocent.

But even the Minister of Justice saying, and in fact she was very honest, the true reality of the Japanese system that as long as you are, when immediately when you are arrested, you are considered as guilty. And Carlos, do you know Donald Trump? I didn't have the chance to meet him. No, I met him once in Davos when he was, but it was in the middle of many people. I mean, he's been, as he would say, the victim of some serious miscarriages of justice himself. Would you like him, but he's got very good relationships with the Japanese, given that your wife is an American citizen? Would you like Donald Trump to potentially intervene and try and get this resolved? I would love that. I would love that. Pierce, if you can do it, I would be eternally grateful. But, you know, I'm very sensitive to all the victims of the weaponization of justice,

for political objectives or for objectives to have nothing to do with justice. I'm a victim of this. I am innocent. I'm not claiming I'm innocent. I'm innocent. I know the reality of what happened.

And I'm being punished because I found myself in the middle of the struggle of two completely state with different opinion about the future of the lines. I never thought that this battle would be so fierce and I would be the victim of this battle.

So, yes, I really understand, and I have a lot of empathy with everybody, whatever the level. And usually when you are at high level, when you are in position of power, it's even more brutal when you are victim of weaponization of justice. A final, I mean, just Donald Trump, I know watch is uncensored occasionally. What would you like to say to him if he's watching this? No, look, you know, what he's doing in the United States was president. When you know a lot of people ask me the about what's going on with the car industry particularly in North America with the tariffs You know first it was predictable when he says America first and he says I'm going to bring back employment in the United States

He's doing it. Okay, so guys are totally in line with what he announced he has not been Wishi-washy about it. He's very straightforward and frankly It has already some results I heard recently you remember that on cars moved from the the United States to Europe, they mean taxed 10%. And the cars coming from Europe to the United States, they are taxed 2.5%. So the EU dropped in front of the threat of tariffs. They dropped the 10% to 2.5%.

Okay, you should have done it before. This is fair trade. I mean, we're not talking about supporting an underdeveloped region. We are talking about fair trade. And on top of that, he said very clearly, he wants to encourage employment in the United States. Well, that's what the Chinese are doing. That means China is the largest market in the world.

The United States is the second largest market in the world. Well, in China, when we worked with China, we had very strict rules. You want to work in China. You need to produce in China, and you need to sell in China. If you don't produce in China, there is no way you're going to do it. Well, obviously, what President Trump is doing is not as strict as what the Chinese are doing, but it's totally fair to say, I want more employment in the United States for cars sold in the United States. go and we run out of time. Thank you very much indeed. I appreciate it.

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