Piers Morgan Uncensored - ‘UTTER Psychopaths!’ October 7, Three Years On + Is Zionism Racist?

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

Three years on from the October 7th Hamas attack, Piers Morgan reflects on how global public opinion towards Israel has dramatically shifted. While initial worldwide sympathy saw major global landmarks illuminated in solidarity, the rising human toll in Gaza, international recognition of Palestinian statehood, UK sanctions, and fierce debates over Zionism have altered the geopolitical landscape. Piers addresses the growing divide, public sentiment in the West, and the complex history behind the conflict by first speaking to author of ‘Anti-Zionism: A Jewish History’ Benjamin Moser before welcoming his panel; US-Israeli journalist and broadcaster Emily Schrader, The Young Turks’ Cenk Uygur and Prager U commentator Shabbos Kestenbaum. Polymarket: Who will be Israel's next Prime Minister? https://polymarket.com/event/who-will-be-the-next-prime-minister-of-israel-after-the-next-election (00:00:00: Introduction  (00:02:06) Benjamin Moser  (00:13:52 ) Green Party's Zionism vote (00:20:55) Ben-Gvir, Smotrich and Israel election (00:26:58) What is the definition of Zionism? (00:31:55) Is Israel becoming a global pariah? (00:34:58) Cenk Uygur erupts over Gaza's children (00:40:00) A proportional response to October 7th?  (00:45:08) Child casualty figures in Gaza vs other wars (00:49:30) Piers: October 7th must be condemned unreservedly Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Zionism was always about Jewish power over other people. It was not about self-determination. It was not about equality. It was always a racially exclusive movement. That's not actually what Zionism is to the vast majority of the Jewish community. The Israelis are in this sick, disgusting cult where they believe they have to murder the Palestinians, and it's the Palestinians fault for getting murdered. And I would argue that the two people on this panel are also in that cult.

And just on that, by the way. So you better run! You better run! This is our land. We're going to steal all of this land, and we're going to murder your kids. Three years ago this morning, Hamas fighters, terrorists, poured across the Israeli border to begin a gruesome attack which has changed the world. It's a day of grief, contemplation, and anger for Israelis. For different reasons, supporters of Palestinian cause now feel the same way.

Most of the world stood in lockstep with Israel as grim details of the Hamas terror attacks became clear. the White House, the Brandon Burgate, the Eiffel Tower, and the Empire State Building, among many other landmarks, were illuminated by the colours of Israeli flag. Demands for the release of Israel's hostages came even for his political enemies. But that goodwill is now gone, lost in the rubble of Gaza. While Hamas undoubtedly began this cycle of violence,

Israel's callous fanatical government is now viewed by many with equal contempt. The turnaround in public opinion should be alarming to all Israelis. More Americans now sympathize with Palestine, than then. The next candidate for president will not be judged by their devotion to Israel, but the level of their condemnation.

A slew of Israel's allies have recognized a Palestinian state at the UN and the UK has hit Israel with sanctions for ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. Well, this week, Zach Polanski's left-wing Green Party in the UK went even further. Its members backed a policy to declare Zionism as a form of racism. The timing, the wording and the virtue signalling didn't land well with me.

I thought it was wrong. But the subject is frankly more interesting and complicated than Zach Polanski. My first guest has written a new book which feels particularly at Benjamin Moser, author of anti-Zionism and Jewish history. joins me now in the studio. Welcome to you, Benjamin. You've flown in from Texas and you've had a long journey to get here, so I appreciate it. This is your book, which has described on the top by Nathan Thrill as a book of extraordinary moral clarity. Let me just, for viewers' benefit, the Anti-Defamation League defined.

Zionism as the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. It also states that Zionism does not preclude support for Palestinian self-determination and statehood. For some Zionists, support for a two-state solution is a realization of self-determination for Jews and Palestinians alike. Is that how you see it? You'll be shocked to see that I do not see it that way. That's a definition that has almost every word of it is wrong. Really? Yes. I mean, Zionism was always about Jewish power over other people. It was not about self-determination. It was not about equality.

It was always a racially exclusive movement. And you've written about, you've said, talked about how October 7th was a horrible event, which it was, of course. But I think what you didn't say is that it was a split in the Jewish world that has been deeper and more profound than any since the Holocaust. And that's what my book is about, is about trying to explain why people said that this idea with this quite okay-sounding definition was absolutely distinct from the reality of what Zionism has always been. When did Zionism emerge as a concept, as a word? Zionism, it's interesting to say it was actually a Christian concept. It's not a Jewish concept. And so when I write about anti-Zionist Jews, I'm writing about a tradition that goes back further among Jews than Zionism. It was about the end of the world and the second coming of Christ and all this kind of fantasy that Christian evangelicals had in the 18th and 19th century.

Modern Jewish Zionism really begins with Theodore Herzl in 1896 when he publishes this pamphlet called The Jewish State. And I had never read this book. My grandfather brought a copy of it out of Nazi Germany when he escaped in 1938. And I was very moved by it. It seemed like a sort of nice idea, sort of what you are citing in that definition. I thought Israel was sort of a nice thing. You had the Holocaust and you have Israel, and that seemed like a very neat sequence.

But in fact, when I read this book, I was shocked by how bonkers Herzl was. For example, he has this fantasy only three years before he writes the Jewish state of bringing all the Jews in the Austro-Hungarian Empire into the cathedral of Vienna and having the Pope show up and convert them all to Christianity. Now, this isn't somebody who is spoken of in terms of Jewish pride. This is somebody who wants to get rid of the Jews.

Everybody in my book from the very beginning, they say this isn't about affirming Judaism, this is about destroying Judaism. And I think what we're seeing now, this break, is all these people warned about it. They've warned about it since the 19th century. 1948, obviously, is when modern day Israel was effectively set up and created.

Did Zionism change in that moment? No, I think this is really important to say, because we think of 1948 as a beginning point, Of course, it's the beginning point of the Israeli state. But Zionism and Zionist settlement in Palestine, which was a country that was between 95 and 97% non-Jewish, starts at the end of the 19th century. It starts a bit before Herzl, but these are small communities.

And then it really gets going in 1917 when the Balfour Declaration is issued by the British government. Which, by the way, doesn't even control Palestine. It was controlled by the Ottoman Turks. They promised this to a group in Britain that had an... The total income of the Zionist movement in the United Kingdom was 500 pounds. The Jews in Britain were a small minority, and the Zionists were a small

minority within this minority. And Edwin Montague, who was the only Jew in the British cabinet at the time of the adoption of the Balfour Declaration, said this is going to be a catastrophe. This is anti-Semitic in intent, which it was, because all the other British government said this is a great way to clear out everybody from the East End. They didn't like the Jews. They wanted them gone. And it will have anti-Semitic effects. And now with the rise in anti-Semitism, we see that in fact, a hundred years later, Zionism has not solved anything for the Jews. It's in fact made a lot worse for all of us. The Guardian column is Jonathan Friedland, who is Jewish. He wrote a very good column, I think soon after the war started, in which he said he could write a piece

from the Palestinian perspective and the Israeli perspective. And he could do a very strong piece arguing that one is the victim and one is the non-victim and vice versa. I got I remember exactly how he phrased it. But it was interesting to me to see a leading Jewish commentator saying this is complex. This is very difficult. There's a lot going on here and actually depending who you talk to, you can construct a very different argument about this. Do you mean, do you accept that? Yes. And I think that I would I don't accept that it's complex. I think it's not complex at all. I think that this was a foreign European settler movement. that came into somebody else's country

and boycotted them, discriminated against them, ethnically cleansed them, and has now committed a genocide against him. I think that's quite... And when Israel says, well, this is our ancestral homeland, this is... Yeah, I mean, I'm from Houston, and it's my ancestral homeland, according to the same thing.

My family are entirely 100% for at least 1,000 years from central and northern Europe. And I have a right. I can walk in to Tel Aviv Airport and sign up to be an Israeli. And I can have rights. I can have housing. I can have subsidies.

I can have free Hebrew classes. I can have all these things that people who have actually lived there for thousands of years don't have. And that just seems to me absurd. I mean, it's a crazy argument that you wouldn't accept in any other country. I mean, if you walked into somebody's house and said, excuse me, Pierce, I actually lived here 3,000 years ago. But if they said the whole tenant of our religion goes back to this area, this land, what do you say to that argument? Well, I mean, this is something that Rabbi Tamar is. who's the first person in my book talks about.

All religious Jews have understood the importance of Palestine to our history and our religion. That's not the same thing as setting up a ethno-nationalist state in that area. And in fact, the central tenet of our religion, the absolute foundation of Judaism, as of many other religions, by the way, is thou shalt not kill.

And so they said that once you come in here, you set yourselves up. You're a political people now. You're no longer a religious community. You're a political nation, just like Bulgaria or like Czechosch, Slovakia or Ireland or all these other comparisons they use at the time. What's that going to mean? It's going to mean you're going to need an army and you're going to kill people.

And once you start killing people in the name of Judaism, you're overturning the very foundation of our tradition and our culture. Their argument would be we've been attacked ever since 48, repeatedly. There are a lot of people that want to destroy Israel, kill as many Israelis as possible, kill Jews. What do you say to that? Well, they don't tell you two things. First of all, they don't tell you why. Jews aren't being killed in Britain, Jews aren't being killed in France, Jews aren't being killed in America. I mean, of course, we have anti-Semitic incidents, but not. Israel is by far the least safe place in the world for Jews.

Why is that? And the other thing they don't tell you is who began this terrorism. So in my book, I talk about Jacob Israel Dahan, who's a homosexual Jewish poet from the Netherlands, who becomes very enamored of Zionism, and becomes the first Dutchman to immigrate to Palestine under the British mandate in 1919. And he very quickly figures out, in fact, there's a lot of people here, they're not Jews. And he writes these very critical articles. And to make a long story short, they kill him. Three shots to the chest as he's exiting a synagogue. Nobody tells you about who started terrorism in Palestine. It was the Zionists. And it was even before that. And it affected

Jews as well as Palestinians. How does this end? How do we get to a place where there's peace in that region? Well, this is very hard. I mean, I, as I described in the beginning of the book, I was a liberal Zionist for my whole life. I was a two-state guy. I was a both-sides guy. I only became really an anti-Zionist, which is someone who says not only that Israel has problems, Britain has problems, America has problems, everybody has problems. Israel is not only a country that has problems, Israel is a country that is a problem. That felt very radical to me. And when I went back into this history after October 7th, trying to sort of find out who were these people that I had never heard from, I never knew there were anti-scientists my entire life. I realized that there's this history. I realized that there's this

history of people who have warned and warned and warned and they've tried to find these other paths. And I think now that we have experienced this genocide, I think there may have been other paths possible at some point. Now I just have to throw up my hands. So do you ever envisage a two-state solution? No. No, I think it's impossible. I talk about Maximo deansson, who was a great French scholar who spoke 50 languages and his parents were killed in Auschwitz. And he said that what he had not understood earlier was that the settler colonial nature of this state, which is this foreign settlement coming in and driving out the indigenous people by its very nature.

And in comparison with other settler colonial entities from Rhodesia to South Africa, to Ireland, to the United States, it means that these places get themselves into a state of perpetual warfare. They can't just say, okay, here's your border, here's our border, which is what normal states do. They're inherently expansionist. And this is what we've seen. Israel has conquered areas of Syria, of Lebanon, of Palestine. And they're saying that we want to go from the Nile to the Euphrates. I mean, this is a quite common thing to hear in Israeli media now.

So I don't know. I can't see it ending in any way but a catastrophe. But at the same time, for me, it's been a real consolation to have the company of these people. Some of them are alive. A lot of them are dead. But just to know that there's an alternative tradition, there's a peaceful Jewish tradition of living together on equal terms with everybody. You want to pull a surprise in 2020 for your biography of Susan Sontag, called Sontag, her life and work.

So you're obviously extremely eminent writer. But the books had some pushback. The New York Times Review said, it paints a fraught world in black and white, overstates Israeli and Palestinian roles as evil perpetrator and a virtuous victim and waves away the historic presence of Jews in the Middle East. What's your reaction to that?

Absolutely correct. I never really like to agree with that. HATers, but, you know, when you write about Zionism, you know, you're going to get the haters. But I do think it's black and white. I do think that it is a project that was racist in inception. And, you know, talking about the Green Party and this thing, I don't necessarily think Zionism is racism, but I do think Zionism is racist, and it has been from the very beginning. I think that there's a colonizer and there's a colonized. There is a victim and there is, and that doesn't mean that every single person in Israel is involved, although, you know, it's a popular army.

Hundreds of thousands of people have served in this army, and it's a quite small country. Leger von Moser, author of anti-Zionism and Jewish history. Thank you very much indeed. My pleasure. Well, the vote on declaring Zionism as racism has split the party, with some members considering leaving altogether. Chair of the Jewish Greens, Vivian Lichtenstein, said this after the motion was passed. I don't think it's helpful, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever to Palestinians in Gaza who have suffered devastation, orphans left behind.

It doesn't make any difference to Palestinians on the West Bank who are currently suffering or are currently being attacked and killed. Well, join me to debate all this in the studios, Owen Jones, author of the new book, The Fall of the West, and US Israeli journalist and broadcaster Emily Schrader, plus Czech Nuga, founded and CEO of the Young Turks, and Prager-U commentator Shabos Kastenbaum. Well, welcome to all you.

a stellar panel, if ever I had one. Emily, lovely to see you here in London. Let me just start with you. Your reaction to what Benjamin Moser was saying there about his conversion, really, I guess, from being a proud liberal Zionist to somebody who believed that the concept of Zionism is inherently racist.

Obviously, I reject his opinion about that. To me and to the majority of the Jewish community, Zionism is the right to self-determination of the Jewish people. their homeland, the land of Israel. It is not mutually exclusive. It does not denote that no one else has a right to self-determination. It does not require destroying anyone else, despite how a lot of people use it today to mean disagreement or opposition to the Israeli government or the state of Israel. That's not actually what Zionism is to the vast majority of the Jewish community who does either

identify Zionists or identify with Zionism. Owen Jones. I mean, the bits are always missing from that definition is the self-determination of a people at the expense of another. Nobody should object to the self-determination of any people. That should be a basic right. Because Israel have a right to exist? Has that's been a question of a lot of people? This always annoys you, but under international law, no state has the right to exist.

People's have the right to self-determination of the protections. If we said that, then we'd argue against Scottish independence because we say the UK has a right to exist and that's contradicted by Scotland's succeeding. So I don't accept that. What I'd say is, look, when the Zionist movement was promised a homeland in the state, in the nation of Palestine, the nation of Palestine, 90% were Arab Christians and Muslims. That was inevitably going to be at the expense. The first manifesto of Zionism in 1890s, defined, just quickly, define Zionism. Why were 90% Muslims and Christians there?

Well, if you really want to go there, Emily, it's because a large number of Jewish people converted to Christianity in Islam many centuries earlier. It's because of multiple occupation. and expulsions and, yes, colonial movements that took over the land that was... A large number. A large number. What was it before Islam and before Christianity? Oh, that's right. It was Jewish. This is why I think Zionism in these arguments wraps itself up in knots. Firstly, we can't start redrawing the borders of the world based on what happened 2,000 years ago.

That's genuinely just an absurdity. The second point is what actually happened is large numbers, as I've ever said, did convert to Islam and Christianity. Large numbers of Palestinians are now being murdered by Israel. A large number of them were forced to convert. Are the direct descendant of the Jewish people. Other Jewish people are from, ancestrally, they are from that land.

Others aren't. Others converted to Judaism in the Caucasus in the 8th and 9th century. The point is, I don't think, my own view is, the persecution of the Jewish people in Europe, which is a hideous crime, which culminated in the Holocaust, is not a crime that the Palestinian people should pay for. And as I've said, early on,

Edwin Montague was named earlier by your previous guest, the Jewish Secretary of State for India. He didn't just argue it would increase anti-Semitism. He did argue that. He said he warned that it would privilege Jews above Muslims and Christians, and he feared it would cause, and this is what he said, it would mean driving out its present inhabitants. That's exactly what happened, the mass expulsion of the Palestinian people,

the vast majority in 1948. This was all... This was all predicted. This was all predicted. About the nearly one million Mizrachi Jews that were expelled from Arab countries. You're completely silent about this. And by the way, you say that no one has, or sorry, excuse me, all people have a right to self-determination, right? If that's the case, then why is this resolution that we saw from the Green Party denying the right to self-determination of the Jewish people?

Why does it require eliminating the other people? The first thing I said is that it does not require the denial of self-determination to any other people. The most telling thing about the Green Party resolution that was straight through is the leader who inspired it. Polanski didn't vote. He abstain, which I thought was an act of utter. moral cowardies. Regardless of the debate, if you're the leader, and this is happening on your watch at your conference, you at least show up, don't you? Oh, he is campaigning for a crucial by-election. Come on. I mean, the thing about the Greens has... He deliberately ducked. They are supposed to,

I don't think that's true. And I actually, what I really resent at the moment is the onslaught against him and his Jewish identity, which has been repeatedly smeared and stripped away. Look, as it happens, I would prefer a one-state solution with the equal rights for all, but I don't think it's up to me to decide that. And that's one area where I would disagree with emotion, incidentally. In terms of the actual point, generally speaking, you mentioned the expulsion of them as are, hey, Arabs. Well, I mean, that varies, actually. In some places, in some places that did happen, for example, in Iraq, and other places that didn't. In Morocco, you have the mass immigration of people, not violent. Morocco is one example. That's a very, that's a very large number.

But in any case, again, the Palestinians didn't do that. And again, this is where it always returns to. No, it doesn't. You can't have self-determination at the expense. of another people. That's exactly what I said. The Palestinians didn't do the Holocaust. They didn't expel Iraq's Arabs. That has nothing to do. Let me bring in the other two panelists.

Shabos, welcome back to Uncensored. This is a very emotive issue here. You know, in very, very simplistic terms, in 1948, it seemed to me a lot of Palestinians got expelled, then a lot of Jews got expelled, right? And there's been this battle over who's right, anybody has to that land. And this has been the catalyst for the whole conflict ever since.

I mean, that's the simple reading of it, right? Okay, well, yeah, first of all, it's good to see you, Pierce. It's been a while. It is a simple definition, but I think that does a tremendous disservice to be historical complexities. So let's be clear, there never was a country called Palestine. It never existed. The term came from the Emperor Hadrian after he expelled the Jews in 130 CE.

And not only did he wanted to remove the Jews geographically from the land of Israel, but he wanted to disconnect their attachment. So he named it after their ancestral enemies, the Philistines, and improperly came up with this new term, a Palestinian. The only time the Muslim Arabs living in the region, we now call Gaza or the West Bank, wherever offered their own state, was under the Peel Commission. They said no, and they were offered their own state in 1948.

And not only did they say no, but then they said we're going to wage a war. So I agree the history is complex, but ultimately this is a culmination of decades and decades of terrible Palestinian leadership, refusing to put the interests of their own people above their hatred of hating Jews. In 2020, President Donald Trump offered them their own state yet again under the peace plan. And they said no. Ato Omer offered their own state. They said no. Aida Barak offered their own state. They said no. The River Wirecords, they said no. So I agree.

It's a terrible situation if you're growing up in Gaza or the West Bank as an innocent civilian, but you are problematically putting the blame on the wrong people. It's not the people who want to offer them their own state. It's their leadership who continuously state, like explicitly. We don't want coexistence. We don't want a multiracial, multi-ethnic, democracy. We want the eradication of the Jew from the river to the sea. It's literally like paragraph. But are we seeing, I mean, all due respect, are we not seeing a similar mentality in people like Ben Gavir and Smoddrich who have made it pretty crystal clear? They want to get rid of all the Palestinians from Gaza, all the Palestinians from the West Bank. They want much more than the river to the sea

in terms of a land grab. They are actively encouraging appalling acts of terrorism by settlers on the West Bank. What's the difference? Well, I'll tell you what the difference is. The people of Israel in three weeks from now will do something that the Palestinians have been denied for the last 25 years, which is vote in an election and have a democracy. Mahmoud Abbas is 25 years into what's meant to be a four-year term. So if we want emancipation and self-determination for the Palestinian people, perhaps you can have the spokesman of Fatah, who I just debated yesterday, have him on your show and ask him, why don't you ask your boss to hold elections?

I don't like Ben-Gavir. I don't like Smotritch, but you know what's great about living in a democracy is you can vote them out of office. And I'm pretty confident, peers. And if I'm wrong, have me back on your show and I will apologize. But I'm confident that the boogeyman that you think the far-right BB settler government is will cease to exist come October 27th. And that's because, again, Israel has a democracy. People can vote. And one of the whole... Well, I want to bring in a check. I mean, I hope that happens. I think it's imperative, actually, for Israel as a country and for its global reputation that that happens. Because I don't think they care Netanyahu, Smodrich, Ben-Givir. I don't think they care about the crashing fall in Israel's...

popularity around the world were affected in polls, which I never thought I'd see in my lifetime. I never thought I'd see a significant majority of Americans have a negative view of Israel, but they do. But they're subervient to the people of Israel in a way that the Palestinian leadership like Mahmoudabas simply aren't. That's why I find it remarkable that when Hamas after the ceasefire is too. Let me bring in Chek. You've been unusually patient.

Congratulations. But Chek, Chek, what's your view? Look, there must be a body of Zionists who have... a completely non-violent, non-reactionary thought process about what it means to be Zionists, who just believe in that anti-deformation league is the movement for self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people

and their ancestral homeland, right? So this debate about Zionism, does it not depend on what kind of Zionist you're identifying as and how you articulate it? Yeah, 100%. As you and I have talked about on the show before, peers, there's basically four different groups. There's the people who are peace activists who are Jewish.

They've been with us from day one. They're the most wonderful human beings, constantly fighting for equality and peace. Then there's the non-Zionists who generally don't care. Then when you move into the Zionist category, there are two different kinds of Zionists. One is just someone who's casual and doesn't know the history of it, has no idea how Zionism originated, and just views it as Israel has the right to exist. And if somebody says they're not a Zionist, that means they want to wipe out it. Israel and all the Jews. Now, they got brainwashed into believing that, but they genuinely believe it and they don't mean harm by it.

And then there's the radical Zionists, which are almost everyone you see on television, everyone in media, almost everyone involved in the government. And so those folks believe in Greater Israel. They know what the Zionist project is. It is the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, the Lebanese, the Syrians. And all the way, as, you know, from the river to the sea, is nothing, which by the way, Nanjahu is literally said and then done. But now they're talking about, oh, my God, from the river to the river, from Nile to the Euphrates. So taking everywhere from Egypt all the way up to Turkey. So these folks are in a cult, and I would argue that the two people on this panel are also in that cult. And look, I don't want harm coming to a hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. So I don't want any harm coming to anyone.

But we're trying to help our Jewish brothers and sisters get out of this cult. and peers every day somebody comes up to me. To be fair, not every day. That's too much. But from time to time, people come up to me and say, oh, Jenk, I left Zionism, and now I see what it is. And I think it's done great harm to the Jewish community. So you don't have to be a fascist and a racist to be Jewish.

That's nuts. And in fact, 40% of Jewish Americans think that what Israel did is a genocide. 61% of Jewish Americans believe that there were war crimes that Israel is committed. the majority of Jews in America believe Israel is committed war crimes. Sixty-three percent of them are against the current Israeli government, and they never get any coverage on television. Television is a giant Zionist propaganda operation run by radical Zionists. That's why they don't let other Jews on. They don't let the majority of Jewish-Americans state their opinions, which is that they think Israel has gone far too far. And the more that people find out about it,

they see the history. It turns out the Zionists, helped the Nazis. That's literal. They broke an anti-Nazi boycott in 1933, which was devastating to the Jewish community, and they were hated by the rest of the Jews in the world. They helped the Nazis attack the British in the Palestine mandate. Later, the Lehigh terrorist group, and all of the original Zionists, I'm sorry, it's heartbreaking to a lot of Zionists that don't know this and that are innocent and don't mean it, but the reality is they were all terrorists in the beginning. They did the worst act of terrorism in the Middle East, which was bombing of the King David Hotel. Almost all of Israel's original prime ministers were terrorists who believed in killing civilians. And unfortunately, ethnic cleansing and terrorism has worked for Israel. They ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians in 1948. And what they learned from that was our terrorism against Britain worked, our terrorism against the Palestinians worked.

And it is enabled by the West. And they have captured the West by capturing our governments. and they are forcing Americans to finance their terrorism, and they're pretending that all Jews agree with their terrorism and their fascism when that is definitely not true. Okay, Emily, you were putting a lot of faces. I will come to your own in the same. But, Emily, what's your response to that?

This is a very fantastical definition of Zionism that I have never heard. Absolutely not. But I think Cheng just kind of makes things up in his head as he goes along. A lot of what you just heard is mostly nonsense. thing I said. Cheng, you don't define Zionism the Jewish community does. And that has nothing to do with the fact that there's a lot of opposition to the war going on now

because that's not what Zionism is. Zionism is a belief. It's a belief in the Jewish right to self-determination in the land of Israel as we just defined. So why you just went on a long rant about a number of different things that don't actually have to do with what Zionism is, which is part of the problem, what we're discussing now,

that you think criticism of the state of Israel or criticism of the IDF and those actions is being anti-Zionist. No. being anti-Zionist is being against the self-determination of the Jewish people and only the Jewish people. It does not make a determination about the self-determination of other people, including Palestinians, by the way. And by the way, in 1948, when it was declared, there was no Arab-Palestinian people, as we see today. That is not even how they defined themselves.

So almost everything that just came out of your mouth is a complete fabrication made up in your own mind in order to confirm your own supremacist's in ideology. Just let Owen respond to that first. Just in terms of Zionism as a movement and the issue here, because I know, as you just said, hopefully the opposition will win and so on and so forth, but this really gets to the cross of the problem because there's no real meaningful difference in their approach to the Palestinians. They all support the illegal occupation of the West Bank and its legal settlement program, for example. None of them have committed to, for example, ending the occupation of Gaza or allowing its reconstruction. And actually, if you look at the history of Zionism, who did the Nakhpa, the mass violent expulsion of the Palestinian people? Who put the Palestinians who remained there under military occupation

and confiscated their land? And I'm talking about the remaining Palestinians in what is now Israel. Who did the occupation in 1967 and began the illegal settlement program? It wasn't the right-wing Zionists. It was the Labour Zionists. It was those who described themselves as left-wing, in some cases, as socialist Zionists. And this is the problem. This gets the problem of what Emily said there. Nobody objects to the idea of national self-determination in its own right. If there was a land in which there was no people at all.

No. If there was a land in which there was no people and there was a whole debate at the time in early Zionism, they didn't all say it would have to be Palestine. They actually went around various different countries, including what is now Kenya. If there was a land with no people and there was a Zionist movement to say, we're going to build our land here, there would not be an objection. by people, yes, who are actually anti-Semitic. In this case, the issue is there was a people there, and they have rights, and they have equal rights, and they are just as human as you, as me, as everybody else on this panel. And that humanity has been shredded away because to build the Zionist project was based on their mass expulsion,

murderously so, displacement, stealing their land, stealing their homes, and stealing their resources, and this has culminated in a genocide. That's our objection. It has nothing to do. with any inherent objection to national self-determination for Jewish people. Shabos. Yeah, I'm going to jump in as an alleged cult member here.

And actually, it's kind of ironic because, Chank, I think we actually are kind of friendly. But I grew up on the left watching you and Anna Kasparin on the Young Turks. So if I was part of the cult, it was probably when I was watching you guys. But what I will say is I'm more than happy. And I mean this genuinely. You're part of the Young Turks cult? My God, it's even worse than we feared. I was a leftist.

I'm repenting publicly on your show. But, Chank, I mean this seriously. And the offer is open to you, Owen, and you peers. I mean this seriously. I will gladly take you to the. Gaza envelope and you can come to Kibbutzim, like Kibbutzbe Erie, where I met... You think I want to get murdered? Well, listen.

I would instantly get murdered by the Israeli. So I think I'm getting back in. You can tell me I'm wrong. We got to let me make the point first, and then tell me why the point is wrong, but I haven't made the point yet. I would love to shoot you and have you meet someone named Eiree who started an organization called Road to Recovery, where they took Gaza and civilians into Israeli hospitals for medical care for free. I would love you to meet an individual named Vivian Silver, although you can't. Because even though she was part of that organization.

No, no, no. The relatives of debt to this, I wouldn't do this. Three years, I would encourage you to not interrupt and show me this. Well, her son told people not to use her name in the way you're doing, so you should stop being. On the morning of October 7th, Hamas stormed into those settlements, and they took Vivian Silver, and they murdered her. So when you say that the peace activists who aren't showing up, the reason they're not showing up is because most of them are dead, because Hamas killed them on October 7th. All of those settlements are the most anti-Bibi, anti-Bengivir, anti-Motrich, far-left socialist you can possibly dream of. in Israeli society.

And Hamas literally doesn't care because so long as you live in any area that is called the state of Israel, not the controversial settlements, not the West Bank, the entirety of the land, it is not conducive to any part where they want to plant.

All right, but Shabos, you know, today, Shabos, I replied to some guy who had a lot of followers on X, and he was commenting on on a video of utter devastation in Gaza, which we know has been 75 to 80% raised to the ground.

And he was, his only comment, was don't fuck with Israel, right? Big macho, rambo kind of thing. And I made the point that this is exactly the kind of attitude that is making Israel an increasingly a global pariah, which makes me very sad as somebody who has always been a big supporter of Israel, who knows a lot of Israelis and likes them very much, right? But sees the crashing opinion polls about Israel and is genuinely concerned about what is happening here and the complete lack of any care. about what's happening from the likes of Ben-Giviris Moddrich. You are, in my estimation, utter psychopaths. I think that Netanyahu has gone along with them because he has to because that's how he got power back. Oh, come on.

He's a psychopath. He's a no, no. He was the problem there. He did the dirty deal with these guys to get back into power. I said that. It's consistent with his records. My question is, when you see the way the polls are going,

when you see how many Americans have turned on Israel, who would previously support them. Does it not concern you? So it's a good question, and obviously you're right, that public opinion has shifted dramatically against the state of Israel. But honestly, I would rather the people of Israel

lose the PR war and win the actual war. So like, congratulations to the Palestinian people. You have McLemore, you have socialists on Harvard's campus, but you're unfortunately nowhere any close to achieving self-determination and freedom of movement and your own state. Why? Because you have continuously put your trust because of the Israeli oppressors and the disgusting fascists who ruled over them,

like, disgusting racist fascists. I've been incredibly respectful. I just want to finish, and then you can tell me that I'm the fascist. But let me finish. There is currently a longstanding PA policy of providing financial support to convicted terrorists and their families. It's called the State Authority Mortars Fund. And currently there's a man, Bashar Masala, who killed a U.S. Army veteran named Taylor Force. He was a Vanderbilt University graduate as well.

And currently, Mashal's family is. is being given money by the Palestinian authority to provide for their financial needs. I would encourage all of us if we're so concerned about the settler terrorism, if we're so concerned about the far-right BB government, and of course the Palestinians are never responsible for any of their own actions.

We would encourage the Palestinian Authority to perhaps not pay the families of terrorists who have killed American citizens. Okay, Alan. No one brings that up. This just always comes over and over again. Can I just say, can I just like, can I just correct? Can I just explain it?

No, let me finish. It's obvious that you're losing the... You do have to finish at some point. Let you finish. You've done the whole freaking show. I'm speaking. If you really want to compare, who's speaking longer? I don't think that's a competition. You talk 80% on the show. Pierce, can I say something? Yes, okay. This is why I shout on your show, because I never... All this, nonstop interruptions. All right, listen, so there are a lot of nonsense has been said here.

First of all, Shabos has done... is doing the classic Zionist trick. It's what Golda Meyer said. We'll never forgive the Palestinians for making us kill their children. The Israelis are in this sick, disgusting cult where they believe they have to murder the Palestinians, and it's the Palestinians' fault for getting murdered. Oh, they made us murder all their kids, 23,000 kids. Shabos had the temerity to talk about kids who need rescuing. I've talked to American doctors on air, including Jewish-American doctors, who talk about the Israelis doing sniper shots on five-year-olds.

They have murdered 23,000 children, American doctor after American doctor, You're talking about sniper shots to the chest and to the head. That same Jewish-American doctor said the Israelis pulled the plugs from the incubators and killed eight babies instantly when they were leaving a hospital. They destroyed all the dialysis machines in a dialysis center in Gaza. They have destroyed all of the hospitals. They will not let these poor little kids out that have actually simple things to cure that can be cured outside of Gaza, but they won't let them out.

One little girl lost three limbs. They murdered Henry Job, a five-year-old, on purpose, and the people who came to rescue her. They have been slaughtering Palestinian children from day one. And there's a reason for that, because what they want to get through to the Palestinians is, you're never going to be free and you're never going to be safe. We're going to kill your kids. Just on that, by the way. So you better run.

You better run. This is our land. We're going to steal all of this land. And we're going to murder your kids. No, you can't. No, nobody can say anything, okay? I've waited the whole show to tell you this. So now we've had, all you have is these guys go,

oh, it's my self-determination. Well, look at this absurdity. So I'm Turkish. Do I have right for self-determination? The Turks do in general? Yes. But do they have a right to self-determination in our quote-unquote ancestral homeland?

Well, do you know where our ancestral homeland is? It's in Central Asia. That's where the Turks came from. If we went to the middle of Mongolia now and said, give me half of Mongolia, and I'm going to murder all the Mongols. It's my ancestral homeland. And all the Mongols made me murder their children.

It's mine, mine! And the reality is when the Zionist started, as your previous guest told you, only 3% of the land was owned by Jewish people. Then in 1947, that number was still only 6%. So in order to take all of Israel, they had to murder and ethnically clans. And that is why they are so vicious

because they want to get it through the Palestinians' heads. You must run for your lives. That's why in 1948, they dragged bodies across the villages dead bodies, they made them dig their own graves. They even put, and you can verify every single fact I say here, and I want everyone to look up what we're saying. And you will find out that the Zionists on this panel are gigantic liars, and we are telling you the exact truth.

And yes, in 1948, the Zionists put a dad and his son into a baker's oven. They are fascists that came from Europe. They brought their fascism along with them. They did not live there. They are European, fascist, colonizers who have done nothing, but murder the Palestinians. They deal their land. Let me moderate the panel.

They call the kid. And they keep stealing all of their farms and their land. Today they destroy more all of farms. I've given you a good way, Chang. And they stole more all the farms. Okay. Owen, you want to say something quickly. Hang on, don't all talk at once.

I want to break. The Zionist Israelis are murderers and terrorists. Chek. Let Owen make his point that I come to Emily. Just that point, because this is where. racist supremacy leads to. There was a poll last year which found that 70% around

of Jewish Israelis believe there are no innocence in Gaza. No innocence. That includes children. It includes babies. It includes women. It includes elderly people. But this is why you end up in a situation where the UN Independent Commission found that Israel has deliberately targeted children,

which includes, for example, sending those drones in one case to shoot a 10-month-old baby in the head while she was breastfeeding. This is why you ended up with Hind Rajab and her six, sorry, four cousins, or being murdered by a tank,

which was a few meters away, and then the paramedics slaughtered after coordinating their movements with their IDF. It is why a Nick, what's his name, Guthrie, the brilliant surgeon from Oxford, who served in Gaza three times, testified that every day, Palestinian teenagers, young men,

12-year-old, three, sorry, 13-year-old boys, came in each day a different part of their head or their chest was attacked on one day, Or on one day, it was their stomach, and then on another day, it was their testicles. He said a game was being played by Israeli soldiers. Or while the New York Times published a report which found dozens of U.S.-based medics who'd served in Gaza, testified about Palestinian children being shot in the head and the chest. Because they no longer see them as human beings.

They see them as all of them as potential terrorists to be killed. Okay. But just to be, hang on, hang on, please. Hang on, please. The Zionists are the biggest racists in the world. Hang on, please. You have to admit that the scientists are the biggest racist in the world. Please.

On the third anniversary of October the 7th, it is also important to remember the utter atrocities perpetrated by Hamas that day against predominantly Israeli and Jewish people, right? It was sickening beyond right at the level of the things you guys are talking about. I'm not diminishing anything you guys have said. I'm simply saying that today, of all days, important to remember the absolute disgusting attack. perpetrated by Palestinian Hamas terrorists.

Because if you don't, then we lose track of actually a large component of all this. I happen to think the Israeli response has been massively disproportionate. But you have to factor in that as we commemorate this day-to-day, there was one of the worst terror attacks perpetrated on a people of modern times. Emily? I just want to ask you, Pierce, what is proportional? What do you think of... Well, I think the Geneva Convention...

Well, I've thought about this carefully. And the point is that after World War II, you know, I think you could say the Geneva Convention was specifically brought in so that we would never have a situation again where atomic bombs would be dropped, as they were in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where you wouldn't have places like Dresden being carpet bombed. There was an acknowledgement by the international community that these kind of things should never be repeated. And I think the concern that I have about what's been happening, and this is why I want journalists to be allowed to operate freely in Gaza, to get to. to the bottom of what's actually happened. And you said this before, and many, many Israeli supporters have said the same thing. So I'm not on a lonely ticket here.

But one of the reasons is to get real clarity about what's happened, because when you see the pictures from Gaza, they are utterly horrendous. It reminds me of Dresden. And the point of the Geneva Convention was it was brought in to prevent things like Dresden happening again.

I think you can argue that what we've seen in Gaza is Dresden with Bels on. It's killed a lot more people and the devastation is a lot of. wider. So to my point is, when you assess proportionality for all the numbers and figures and ratios and so on, I look at the pictures from Dresden and now Gaza. It's a really bad comparison, by the way. Well, why? Because Dresden was a crime, no question about it. Well, it would be...

Why is it a bad comparison? Because Nancy Germany was a military superpower, which had taken over the whole of Europe and had a very good shout at world domination. But that's not... But that's not the point. No, because they... No, it was the point. It was the point. Let me explain why I think. It was the point. We're talking here instead of an area of the size of East London with a racked anger around. But let me explain, okay, but just for purposes of clarity, the reason why I think there's a comparison is that when you see the scenes, they are utterly devastating.

And the argument used by the Allies at the time was we have to do this, even if a lot of civilians get killed. And the point of the Geneva Convention was to try and prevent that volume of civilians being killed as you go after. As people go after the bad guy. But that actually was an existential war. They should not have prior bond, but they were fighting the military superpower,

which had conquered both. But if you use that language, then you have to accept that on the Israeli side, they believe they are waging an existential war against people who, by their own admission, Hamas said, after October the 7th, through their official spokesman on camera, we want to keep doing this again and again and again.

Hamas wasn't going to take over in Israel. Nobody thinks that. But the Israelis feel they are under an existential threat. It has to be acknowledged. You may not agree with it. You may not agree with it, but that's what they think. The Nazis did take over Europe.

They did have a chart in world domination. We're talking about a rank tank of a millionaire the size of East London. We're not. Let Emily have her say. Emily. We are talking about an existential threat to the threat of Israel, and it's not just because of Hamas.

It's also because of Hezvala, the Houthis and the IRC and the Islamic Republic itself. And we also know that the Islamic Republic has been funding all of these proxy terror groups and waging a war. against the state of Israel, there is an existential threat. Of course, Israelis did feel this on October 7th and after the fact. And I think when we talk about proportionality, I agree with you, Pierce, that the images are horrific. All images from war are horrific.

That's why we didn't start it. But the reality of the situation is when we talk about what proportionality is or isn't, we have to examine it through an international laws of conflict lens. As soon as I finish, you can ask me a question. When we're talking about the international laws of armed conflict and the way that people wage war, you have to examine each individual strike. That is a whole, that is a total casualty count number. That's not what determines whether it's proportional or not.

That's why, that is why, Emily, that is why I want the media to be allowed to operate freely in Gaza so we can actually work out what has happened there. Emily, can't judge the morality of a war on the basis of photos that come out of it alone. But you can base it on the international media. We can't operate on the international media. We are on the same. To me, the longer that ban goes on, the more I think that they must have perpetrated war crimes they want to hide. Otherwise, why not let the ban?

I don't think that that would hide. I don't think denying journalists to... Well, supposedly, there was supposedly a ceasefire in Gaza. Let the journalists in. Emily, can I ask you, what was the percent? Bosnia, you agree that was a horrific war, I was for you. Of course, it's a horrific war. What percentage of those killed in Bosnia were children?

What percentage? I don't know. It was 5%. What percentage has been killed in Gaza with children? What percentage of all the children in Gaza? No, no, no, no. What percentage of the people killed in Gaza are children? I'm asking you. We don't have final information. 30%. 30%. It's 30%. It's 30%. What was it in Syria? What was it in Syria? What was it in Syria?

Horrific war, Syria. I think we'd all agree a really horrific. Yeah, 12%. That's the highest. What was it in Iraq? What was it in Iraq? 58. 50% of the casualties in Gaza are adult-aged military males. 30%? Which is much lower than their proportion, which would indicate... 30% of those killed are children. Which would indicate that Israel is targeting terrorists. No. Not civilians.

30% are children, and that's the highest percentage by far of any conflict for 20%. My point would be this. We know that half of the population of Gaza is under 18. It has a uniquely young population. And the IDF and Israeli government know this. So when they say we haven't deliberately targeted children, maybe they haven't deliberately targeted children, or maybe they have.

Put that argument. The new film, Haza finds that they wait for Hamas and alleged like it is to go home. Owen, let me make a separate point. I'm not getting into that debate because I don't know the answer, right? I know the testimony. We do know the UN Independent Commission. I've seen lots of testimony that suggests they have been, but I've also seen vehement denials.

And again, send the media in, let's get to the bottom of all this, right? But the truth is that by targeting Hamas in the way that they have in urban civilian areas, the IDF have killed a staggeringly shocking number of children. And so to simply say, we never target children, well, maybe not. But even Donald Trump, when even their biggest, Well, hang on. When even their biggest supporter, Donald Trump, says you don't have to blow up apartment blocks to kill an Hamas terrorist. That's what they do by design.

He's right. They wait for them to go to their apartments and then they bomb this. Where's daddy? Children have become the great collateral damage of this war in Gaza. It's by intent, right, because they wait for those militants to go home. I think are the great casualty in any conflict. I mean, this is something that shouldn't be happening. But the reality of the situation is, if you look at the behavior of even the IDF, the hundreds of thousands, actually millions,

of the evacuation notices, of the leaflets that have been passed out, of the efforts of the strikes that have been called off. A lot of footage has been released of strikes being called off because of the presence of civilians. Every individual strike has to be evaluated through the lens of proportionality and distinction. So if Hamas waited for IDF soldiers to go to the family homes and then blow up their family homes. Did they differentiate in accordance with the laws of armed conflict between what the permissible under international law? And by the way, this isn't Israel's rules.

What would you say? These are international laws. What would you say if Hamas waited for IDF soldiers? to go back to their family homes as a matter of systematic policy. They're not targeting IDF soldiers. They're targeting Israelis and they're breaking into their homes on Jewish holidays and kidnapping and rapes and murdering people. What if Iran announced a policy of waiting for IDF soldiers to go back to the family as a bond of them?

Iran does have a policy of targeting civilians. They mortared at least 40,000 of this January of their own people. It's called where's daddy? It's called where's daddy. What they do is they wait for the alleged Hamas target to go to their family homes. It's official policy. They go to their family homes and then they blow it up and there's an acceptable amount for a low-level target of 20 people, civilians, including children. That's how you slaughtered so many children. If you have a problem with that, Owen, then you should take it up.

That's against international law. You can sit here and be indignant and outraged. I would like it should be in line with international law. The one thing we should all agree on is the sooner the world's media are allowed to operate freely in cars to get to the bottom of all this, the sooner we might get real clarity. I'm sorry, I'm just not prepared to just take the IDS word for it on them being the most moral army in the world. So the longer they ban the media,

the less I'm prepared to accept that. On the issue of who may be the next Prime Minister, the Prime Minister of Israel. After the next election, there's $44 million. It's a big market. Eisencott is currently on 47%. Netanyahu, 36%, and Tali Bennett, 9%.

So a clear suggestion there that Netanyahu's reign of what many viewers' terror may be coming to an end there. And what I would say, talking of terror on this day, is just to repeat, that on the third anniversary of what happened on October the 7th, it is important to remember the scale of what happened that day, the utter horror perpetrated on Israeli and Jewish people. And if you don't condemn that unreservedly and loudly,

particularly on an anniversary like today, then I don't take anything else you say seriously. Because you have to be prepared to condemn the obviously condemnable. Of course. Those were grave crimes, as I said at the time, and I've said repeatedly ever since. The point is, we are not arming those cries. We're not facilitating that. And they're not ongoing every single day with our active support. Every day Palestinians have been killed by Israel. That's the point. And it's within the dynamic of an occupier and the occupied.

Okay. We're going to leave you there. It's been a spirited debate. I appreciate you all coming on. Can I address it? Well, very quickly, Jen, we've run out of time. very quickly. Yeah. Okay, so look, guys, October 7 was horrific and it should have never happened. It's easy to condemn. Can we also condemn October 6 or 55 years of disgusting fascist occupation of the Palestinians? Can we also condemn October 7? Hold on. I'm finishing. And October 8th, let me finish Zionist. October 8th, they did since then 75 October 7th. Can I ask the American media to stop. not how it works in more, thanks. That they don't care about

Palestinian lives. They don't care about Palestinian children. And American media is so guilty. It's disgusting. American media is guilty, is guilty of enabling terrorism and supporting and you are guilty of shilly foreign terrorism. In every way, aiding and abetting

Israeli terrorism. They have murdered 23,000 children. When are we going? going to stop giving our money to them to murder more Palestinian children. 75 October 7th. And our media goes, no big deal. They're only lowly Palestinians, not the chosen Israelis. Okay, well, just to be clear.

Our media are. Just to be, no, we've got to end it there. But just to be clear, just to be clear, this media, this journalist does not hide away from those numbers. All that way I'm not too. for offering these platforms. And that is the reality. So this is why I think my show has been an important platform in this wall. I've got to leave you there.

Thank you all very much indeed. Every cable news host is a monster who supports genocide. Not one of them have condemned it. Why do they all work for Israel? I don't care about 75 October 7th. I'm going to have to, I don't want to meet you change. I don't want to meet guys, Chaboff. Because they're racist.

I can't keep ending the show. We are ending the show. I thank you all for the spirited debate. I appreciate it. Thank you. Pierce Morgan Unsensit is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask only one simple thing.

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