Piers Morgan Uncensored - "VIRTUE SIGNALLING" John Terry & Piers Morgan on England 'Betrayal' & Somali Referee Scandal

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

In episode two of World Cup Uncensored, former England captain John Terry returns to the show alongside co-hosts Piers Morgan and Simon Jordan to discuss the 2026 World Cup so far. John discusses the England team's YouTube channel dropping a podcast with squad players Jude Bellingham and Morgan Rogers, in which the pair discuss fellow player Jordan Henderson and his importance to the team, a topic of conversation online since being called up by Thomas Tuchel. The lads go on to discuss the hydration breaks taking place in every half of every game and whether they're ruining the flow of the football match and if it's just another way for American broadcasters to capitalise on advertisement breaks. Finally, they look ahead to the England game against Croatia and the 'lack of quality' of the football played at the World Cup so far. 00:00 Introduction 01:49 Piers, Simon and John discuss hydration breaks 06:29 Should the England players sing the National Anthem? 13:01 The panel discuss who has impressed so far at the tournament 16:36 England squad leak suggests Gordon will start and Guéhi will be benched 21:34 Should Jordan Henderson have been brought to the World Cup? 28:40 John Terry discusses why the England players haven't been feeling appreciated 33:07 Piers, Simon and John discuss Scotland 36:35 John Terry: “Marc Cucurella to Real Madrid is a big loss” 38:15 Simon Jordan and Piers Morgan react to New York Knicks win 41:40 Will Zlatan Ibrahimović be a good pundit? 43:07 Simon and Piers discuss the political state of America during this World Cup 45:21 Should the BBC have gone to America for the World Cup? 47:41 Were FIFA right to ban the Somali referee Omar Artan? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

John, if you were in the dressing, would you expect them or would you demand of them that they sing their national anthem? Being in that environment before the game's singing it, fucking out, does not get the juices flowing. DT, in relation to England's team selection, a lot of stuff's being leaked. I think we've always been at a disadvantage in these sordermans because it seems the English press always get hold of it. And what amazes me that they go and print it or they leak it and it's kind of out there for everyone and the world to see. I've seen UEFA have a swipe at the idea that this tournament is too big. teams own it are not at a level. I think they should mind their business.

They've been virtue signaling the way through the refereeing situation. If he was a dickhead, would he get picked? Good point. Well, that's a good point. He's not a dickhead. James Corden was a full-kit wanker. And of course, that is, in a way, a tribute to yourself. But if he's going to do it, at least get the shin pads and the boots on and the armband

and go for it. Exactly. I'm Pearce Morgan. And I'm Simon Jordan. And welcome to World Cup uncensored. Well, it's pretty very pretty pretty. popular. We had over 400,000 people watching the first episode of World Cup Unsensored. Obviously, because of all these things, most of them were enraged about something.

But they generally rather enjoyed it. We've got John Terry joining us, as he did for the first one. JT, how are you? Hi, guys, very well. Only 15 minutes late this week, guys. Nice setting, John. Nice setting. Someone was all swanning it around in South Africa. We're actually putting a shift in India. Actually, we're both in. I'm actually sitting next to Simon here. So for the purposes of production, we're looking down different cameras, but we are sitting

next to each other. And so far, it's been remarkably civilized in here, although he has complained about the heat. And that brings me, actually, to the first question for you, JT, because the big theme so far, I think of this World Cup, have been the conditions, the heat, but also the excuse being used by the authorities of the heat, where it's... Even when you have a covered stadium with air conditioning and all the stuff you would normally have anywhere in the world, they're still having these brakes, the hydration brakes,

which many people think are now having a direct impact on the integrity, if you like, of the normal play. What do you make of it? Yeah, peers, I would have to agree, actually, watching the games the last couple of nights, I think it's taking the momentum out of it as well. There's been times on and going, okay, guitar are back on top here,

and then all of a sudden it's a water break and it kind of kills the momentum and then the Swiss kind of get back on top. So I really don't like it. It seems like it's just monetized, isn't it? It's very American, but it's certainly not us. And also, we've done alright for the last hundred years without these water breaks as well, haven't we?

Well, that's the point. I mean, Simon, you know, we're both in New York. It's pretty hot here. You know, we were talking about it earlier. You walk around. It is hot. So these conditions are definitely going to have an impact, I think, particularly on teams like. England who are not used to they, although ironically this weekend in England, it will be this

halt. But what do you make of these unprecedented hydration breaks? Many people think it's giving the bigger teams in the tournament an unfair advantage. I would imagine that you have to prepare properly, knowing that you've got this situation inside games, coaches have got to be professional about it. The interesting thing for me is, and you've touched upon it, John, which is the monetisation, because if you're playing in Dallas as the Dutch and the Japanese were last night, there's no need for a break after 22 minutes because it's a climate called control. environment. The other side of the argument is, if you talk about sporting integrity, which Piers just brought up, if one set of games have hydration breaks in it because the climate

dictates it needs it, and another don't, doesn't, then all of a sudden you're into a debate about sporting integrity of the framework of a game because teams are experiencing different dynamics. So whilst I don't like it, and I think sometimes you footballers are a bunch of fannies about what you do and don't know, or do don't need, there probably is more benefit in having it than not having it. And we know, and peers you will know, given the American networks, this is as much about the opportunity to go to a commercial break as it is about the well-being of the sports stars. Well, I think that's the crucial thing here, is that there is a commercial imperative, clearly that is at play here where the American networks want to have their

commercials, their advertising, it's generating huge amounts of cash. The audiences have already been pretty good for the World Cup here. And that's despite massive sporting events, like the New York Knicks finally winning the NBA finals, like the Stanley Cup finals and so on. Despite that, the World Cup is off and running here. But I think that is what's driving this. And John, again, from a player's perspective, how do you feel about that?

For me, I was actually quite intrigued to see what the managers are going to do in these kind of three-minute breaks. I was quite intrigued thinking that the cameras would pan onto the players. There'd be loads of tactical bits. And you get a little insight into what information the managers may be giving to the players, but we're not seeing that at all. It's just going to these adverts that, like I said,

it's just very American. It's how they do things. How they do baseball, basketball, all of their events. So it's probably expected, wasn't it? But, John, as a player welfare thing, which we now disappear on our backsides on a regular daily basis, but I have to listen to Martin Keogne and talk about player welfare one more time.

I think I'll shoot myself in the face. But is there a necessity? Is there a necessity? Is it an advantage to the players in these climates to have these rehydration banks, put aside the monetisation argument, to look at the well-being of the players to be able to form at a high level. Would you want it, if you were playing now in this World Cup with this heat, with this heat,

would you want a rehydration break? To be honest, Simon, I wouldn't actually. I'm probably a little bit more old school. I wouldn't. I think it's down to the players to do your prep, take on the hydration before. And also, there is stoppages within the game as well, whether it goes out for a throw-in, a corner or a little injury or something like that, where you're unable to then go and take a little drink or grab the water bottle off the physio or whatever that may be.

So I think there's opportunities within the game early on anyway. Let me... No, I'm not happy with that one. A slight tech thing. Yeah, no, no, it's not that, John. I'm getting... It's fine when you talk, but when Simon talks, I'm getting his words repeated back.

So if the tech guys, if there's a way to fix that, it would be useful. It'll help with your education, Peter. You get it twice. I've got the worst-case scenario imaginable. You'll get it twice. I'm hearing Simon Jordan twice. We're moving on from being a fan boy into some actual knowledge, John. Well, I'll tell you what I want to talk about.

But also, John. And it's this, national anthems. So I've got an interesting story about this because Wayne Rooney never used to sing the English national anthem. He said it was a, I had dinner with him in L.A. in the mid-2000s, and we had a great night. And it was just me, him and our wives. And I said to him, why don't you sing the national anthem?

And he said, oh, you know, in Liverpool, we don't really do that so much. And he felt like he was very touchy about it. And I said, look, he was about to become England captain. I said, if you're going to be England captain, you've got to sing the national anthem. So we had a really quite spirited debate about it. Anyway, he then did start to sing the national anthem. And as captain, he always sang the anthem. I just noticed, because people mention this on social media,

a few of the England players so far have not been singing it. And let me just say from the start, I think it's absolutely their right to sing it or not sing it. No one knows why they don't want to sing it, and they're entitled to. Madaweiki, Spence and Ratchford apparently didn't sing it against New Zealand and Costa Rica when it was played. A, does it matter? And B, you know, I remember you belting it out when you were an England player and captain. I as a fan think it does matter. What do you feel about this?

I think it matters 100%. I think from a player's perspective and the supporters, watching at home. I remember growing up with Tony Adams, Stuart Pierce, these guys with the veins in their neck kind of busting out live on TV. And then I felt as England captain I had a duty to the country that the people watching, I used to love it going down the line and seeing my teammates or the England players of previous generations to me singing the national anthem. I think it's very patriotic. And also like being in that environment before the game singing it with all the stadiums singing it as well, fucking up. Does Nuff get the juices flowing as well?

Well, that's the thing. I mean, I remember you doing it. I remember Stuart Peters streaking it. And Simon Jordan, we haven't been in the player's shoes, obviously. So it's hard to sing. But I just can't help but think if they all, whenever I see everyone do it, I love that. And conversely, when I see some players not do it,

it always feels a little bit off to me. Well, it's curious to understand why they wouldn't want to do it because whilst neither one of us have played, we all respect the value of our country and the opportunity that these kids are getting to play. So I would have thought that it should be mandatory. We live in a day and age where you have to consider everyone's feelings, but when you're playing for your country,

you should have, I think, an inherent obligation to feel the weight of expectation. John, if you were in the dressing room, and I know it's a difficult question to address now, given that you're not playing in this generation now, but you had players as the captain. Would you expect them or would you demand of them that they sing their national anthem because you felt it was inherently part of their responsibility

and also part of raising the occasion? I wouldn't expect them. I'm with peers on this one. I think they've got their own right to choose whether they do it. And actually had a conversation with a couple of the younger players when they first come into the setup. And actually, they're shy and they're nervous going into that. You know, their full focus is on the game and stuff like that.

So when that camera goes along the line, like you're singing to millions of millions of people. We're probably not the best voice either. But I'm very old school, like I said, I'm very patriotic. And I think it's great to see. I think individuals have a choice, I think, on this one. It's interesting. Watching any sport in America, how big the anthem is in the United States.

You know, I remember being at CNN once with Wolf Blitzer is one of the most famous iconic anchor men in American cable news history. And we couldn't stand up for the anthem at a political event because we were strapped into our chairs with all our stuff. And it was actually a really, like, uncomfortable moment. I remember people around us getting very angry with us that we weren't standing for the anthem, even though obviously it wasn't my anthem, but it's very indicative of how passionate Americans feel about that. It's not quite the same in the UK. It tends to be for the Big England games. I'm sure the big crowd here for our games here will belt it out.

But it's not quite as endemicly, intrinsically part of the psyche, I don't think, as it is for America. Have you felt that, John? Yeah, slightly. I think the Americans do it probably as good as anybody. I think they're very passionate and very patriotic. I just think the national anthem itself is very kind of catchy as well. So from other nations, I think you look at them

and understand how passionate they are with their military and all of that. And I think there's a lot of that behind it. And again, we've grown up on players of our generations kind of belt in the national anthem out. And over the last probably 10, 15 years, we've seen that kind of filter out. So listen, I would love to see it. I'd love to go along the whole line and to see every single England player before the game's belt winning it out.

Will it happen? Will the manager enforce that? I'm not sure. Well, that raises an interesting point because our manager's German. So someone said to me, we were debating this earlier when we were doing a little pre-briefing for the show. And they were like, well, should Tuchel sing it then? By your yardstick, if everyone connected with the England team should sing it.

should the manager sing it, even if he's not English, to which I said, no, that would be ridiculous. You can't expect a German to sing the English natural anthem. And I would feel the same about Ancelotti with the Brazilian national anthem. I mean, I'm not wrong, Simon. I mean, it would be absurd, wouldn't it? Yeah, probably. I mean, I think you and I would suggest that the fact that it's not seen as something that people might want to do.

I put aside the argument that John has about the fear factor, because these are big boys that are used to playing in big games, most of them. And it speaks to perhaps a culture in our country that we aren't quite as pride-orientated, as motivated to be as patriotic as we should be. We spend a lot of the time apologising for the things that our culture may and may not have done. A lot of times answering questions about the things that we haven't done as well as we could do whilst probably having the most tolerant and sophisticated society in the Western world. So it might speak to that.

But a national anthem, singing a national anthem and belting it out doesn't necessarily determine that you're going to have a team that overcomes results. So none of them sang, Piers, and we won the Bloody World Cup. I live with it, right? You know what? That is completely true. And that brings me to England's first game tomorrow night, Croatia. John, looking at the game so far, it looks at the general sort of theme, I think,

has been that America turned up and looked really impressive against a pretty good Panama side, particularly defensively. I thought they were terrific. Zill didn't quite turn up and are looking a little bit underwhelming. Casimir in particular, yanked off quite early, like he struggled in the field. Paraguay were crap, peers. They were, yeah.

I personally was drawn to Sweden, I thought it looked terrific yesterday, and particularly EZAC playing with Yockerez. But what else has caught your eye, John, from the first few games? I think Morocco looked good for me. I have to say, I thought they were very organized. And again, I think there's so many weak teams in this World Cup, which I'm a fan of.

I'm so open for different nations, different countries, getting an opportunity to come and play in the World Cup. But that enables us to kind of, you see the Germany game, like to win and defeat them like that, 7-1. I'm not really a fan of these teams in the World Cup, but I think it gets the big teams. I think once the group stages are done, I think we're going to start seeing some really good football, some really good individuals come to life. And I think these are really good stepping stones because often when you start these World Cups, like you want to get off to a good start,

you want to like for Haverts and those that you want to get on the score sheet and bits like that and finds your way in. Unfortunately, for us, our first game is Croatia, which is probably our toughest game in the group. And also they're a really good side. So it's going to work backwards for us in terms of that. But I'm actually a fan of these smaller countries, getting opportunities, like you see Curacao and you see Guitar get their first goals at the world. And it's like it's For me, it's great to see. But for the big teams coming in, I think it's a really good stepping stone

coming in and finding your feet. And you guys might disagree because the football's not been great. I have to say, have been disappointed overall. It's interesting. I mean, I've enjoyed some of the games. I don't disagree in totality that it's not being electrifying so far.

On that point, though, Simon, do you like watching Germany thrashing a team that is in its first World Cup and many people think shouldn't be there at all? Not really. I mean, I see the merits of expanding a World Cup, not just because it generates more revenue, but you sit in conversations. I had conversations with Vengo a couple of years ago about what the World Cup can and can't do, and how it can broaden the opportunities for countries around the world, which then creates a conveyor belt of better talent, which then can find its way into clubs around the world. So it has some method to its madness.

And you look at it and say, well, I see the merit of that. And on the other side of it, there's also an argument, which says, when you come to the greatest show on earth, you should see possibly from the get, go the best teams playing. Now there's an argument that could even be reduced from 32, but we are at 48 now. It is what it is. So I'm sort of sitting there going, well, I have no real interest. I'm going to learn nothing.

I don't think the broadcasters are going to make a big bag of dough watching Cape Verdi playing Saudi Arabia. But it is what it is. So I've seen UEFA have a swipe at the idea that this tournament is too big and the teams are in it are not of a level. I think they should mind their business. They've been virtue signaling the way through the refereeing situation. Now they're jumping on the back

of what FIFA are doing with the size of a tournament. I think it has good and bad pits. I think there's merit to be taken for more teams in it because it perhaps gives those societies, those countries and opportunity. But from a broadcasting quality point of view and watching the best versus the best, some of it can be a little bit, no, not really.

And JT, in relation to England's team selection, a lot of stuff's being leaked, apparently leaked with authority to the newspapers back in the UK. And it would appear, I mean, A, I was going to ask you what you feel about that. Is that detrimental? to the team if people get advanced knowledge of who's going to play.

But in particular, the leaks appear to suggest that Gordon will get the nod over Rashford on the left, that Gehie may not start, that he'll go with Stones and Goncer, and that there are even a suggestion that Rogers might start over Bellingham. Now, if those three things are true, what do you feel about that? I think we've always been at a disadvantage in these tournaments because it seems the English press always get hold of it. And what amazes me that they go and print it or they leak it

and it's kind of out there for everyone in the world to see. Surely from an English perspective, we have to protect that a little bit. And naturally, like, you're going to get told that maybe you're in the starting lineup or you get a feel in the team shape the day before or two days before in training that you're in the kind of lineup. You have conversations with your partners or your agents and stuff like that. So I understand all that goes on. It just surprises me that from an English press.

point of view, it gets leagued because it must be a disadvantage as well. I like the fact that Stones is coming in. I think I've spoken about those three. Stones, Gerhe and Consa, I think the three of them are at a top level. So I'm happy with that one. Gordon and Rashford as well. I really like, I think they're both on a similar level. And Belling and Rogers, I think there's a bit of a drop off. I think I think Jude's a big star for us. So I'm hoping that one's wrong, to be honest, because I think it could be a big bowl cup for him. It's also, it's a massive game, Simon. England have to start well because, again, talk about the media.

There's probably no, I mean, there are some countries which, Brazil, obviously, the media get on their backs. And they're out of the tiny things. But England in particular, I think, given how well we've performed in recent international tournaments, huge expectations. And Croatia is probably the toughest game of the three. And we've got to start well. Are you comfortable with where Tuchel's thinking in terms of selection?

I'm comfortable with Thomas Tuchel, so that makes me comfortable with this. I feel like when we debate about Thomas Tuchel, when we were talking about whether Jordan Henderson should be in the team and whether this player is that picks, you can't on one hand advocate for the fact as an elite manager. And then on the other hand, before these decisions have been visited in some degree of success or failure, start to judge it. John, I want to take you back to the point you've made about leaking information out to the press.

Now, the press is going to do what the press does, but it can't necessarily not print something if a player has made or people around a player have made, made that information available. Isn't there some degree of responsibility upon the players, irrespective whether they talk to their agent or they talk to their partners, to make sure that they protect this kind of information because they're representing their country,

they're representing a group of individuals that they're all playing alongside and with? Isn't that you have responsibility upon the players to pack it in and keep it amongst themselves? Yeah, I mean, I was the way to say, I would have a conversation with my wife and that was it, to be honest, and wouldn't it kind of even have a conversation with my agent and let him know, that or people close to me, just in case anything ever come up, I could always go, I've not

spoken to anyone or told anyone about it. So, yeah, I think players have a level of responsibility for sure. But also, like, guys, you want, like, family members at games and stuff like that. Like, there'll be certain games where families flying over for games. If you're not playing, they might kind of miss that one and other bits. So there's so much more to it than just kind of having a conversation, things getting lit. I think the press have a bigger responsibility than the players for me. No, I think, I mean, listen, I'll always go with bashing up journalists if I possibly can, but in real terms, you've got to understand that the journalist is going to do what's like asking the scoping and a frog, isn't it?

But as far as the Croatian case concerned, John, are you worried about this game? Because I don't think that actually, whilst momentum is a great thing, we've started tournaments off by often playing the weakest opposition first game out. So when we played in the last World Cup, it was either Iran or Panama straight out of the gate, wasn't it? And you'd get that under the way, under your belt. But not winning this game, not winning the first game, it was. Croatia, which, by the way, I think we will, but not winning it. Shouldn't spread panic or shouldn't start a firestorm of, hang on a second. What's happening here, should it really?

No, it shouldn't. Simon, they're a really good team as well. They've got bundles of experience as well. Modrich being the big one for them. Listen, I think we're going to win the game. But like you say, like a droid's at the end of the world as well because, listen, I think the Garner game is going to be a really tough game as well. But listen, these are a really, really good side.

and ideally you want to get off to a good start. That's not always the case. Certainly wasn't when I played as well. And I think as a player you come into it going, you'd actually take a draw in a tough game like this and kind of then move on to the next two where you look at those and go, yeah, we should go on a win those two

and then top the group from there, really. Let me ask you about Jordan Henderson. We mentioned him a little earlier. The FAA decided to front up Bellingham and Morgan Rogers to talk about how important Henderson is to the camp. And that's been kind of ridiculed by some people. Roy Keene has previously

famously questioned why Henderson is in England squad. What does he do? Keen said, this is a couple of years ago. Does he do card tricks? Does he have a sing-song? Does he do quizzes in the evenings? You know, and he got widely attacked for saying it. But there is a sense that Henderson

is more there to be in the camp than to play a constructive role on the pitch. What do you think, John? I mean, do you see the big VATTS? I mean, do you see the big VATs? of having him there, people saying, look, if he's not going to play and he's just there to hold hands and tell people what they want to hear, why didn't you take, you know, a phodon or a palmer?

First of all, I thought it was a bit weird for the FA to kind of put that out and put those two guys kind of on a podcast to talk about it. I don't think it's for them to talk about it, but it felt like the FA were kind of addressing something that everyone's been talking about. I've got Jordan Henderson's back on this 100%. And I don't know Jordan too well, but I've come across him and what I see from him. He's a top, top player, by the way.

Let's not forget that. Now, is Jordan going to start? No, he's not. But I feel he plays a big part in this World Cup for us. Late in games with the experience he's got, the training sessions, I spoke about it as well. And I was disappointed in two-called squad selection in not picking certain players,

McGuire being one, Luke Shaw being another experienced player. You look at Stones coming in, no doubt. Stones plays the other night, and he puts pressure on two-call because how well he plays and poses a doubt to the manager. And now possibly John Stone starts. There's other players in this group, and I go,

I'm not sure whether they do that. Jordan Henderson is 100% that player for us. He's brave. He'll come on the last 15, 20 minutes. I think he's got a big, big role to play. And also, when you're a manager or when you're a chairman of a football club, You want people like this around your football club or in the England setup.

And above all of that, peers, he's a top top player. See, that's very interesting, I think, to hear from someone who's been right at the heart of England camps. I mean, Simon, it was interesting to me, as J.T. said there, the way they used Bellingham and Morgan Rogers to kind of do a PR job on Henderson, that didn't sit well with me either. I was like, that's not their role. They shouldn't be doing that. Yeah, I mean, I listened to a lot of that, and I felt the actual, the bigger, more challenging position for me was talking about the culture that they were referring to about how they needed to be loved more and how they felt in this particular environment that they were being that, which seemed to be sort of juxtaposed to the culture that Gariff Southgate created. When we talk about Jordan Henderson being brought into the side, and I take your argument, John. I mean, Adam Morton and Gibbs White might have a different view about their seasons in comparison to the Jordan Henderson season. And which other nation need somebody in their dressing room to keep the players on side to try and win a tournament?

You don't hear this about Argentina. You don't hear this about other sides that are playing to win the tournament. It seems to be a British trait that you guys need to be amused. You need to be entertained. You need to develop camaraderie amongst yourselves. And apparently, Jordan Henderson is the water carrier for that. That doesn't feel like, to me, a selection is based upon everybody is the best version of the best in class to try and win a tournament that's going to require all.

26 players. Well, the question, I would put it simpler to you, having heard that very good counter argument, John. If he was a dickhead, would he get picked? Good point. Well, that's actually a good point. He's not a dickhead. He's a really good player.

But also, when I look at our midfield and the players that he's kind of competing for within that midfield, it's Declam Rice, which he's not going to replace. Mayno and Anderson, potentially. But you're looking at those guys coming on late in the game where they're new. This is new to them. They haven't been here before. Jordan's done it at a top level for both Liverpool, for England over the years.

And I will be so confident. If I see him come from the bench for the last 15, 20 minutes, to see a game out, whether we're winning, or to close a game as well. He can do both as well, because he's going to be so brave on the ball where you look at there's a pass in the last five minutes, do I play forward and risk that pass to Harry Kane

and maybe give it away or do I go safe sideways. I'm not saying the other two midfielders do that, but Jordan's so brave on the ball, And listen, if you're Adam Walton, I think you can be really disappointed not going to this World Cup because I would argue that he's been better than Jordan Anderson. But at the same time, I'm not sure he can do what Jordan can do either late on in these games as well. So yes, he's been a better player and he's the future of England. But Jordan, honestly, I'm so confident he's going to be such a big player for us,

the important player late on in games as this tournament goes on. And when you hear and listen to the players, they talk about the good bits. They talk about all the good bits. The one thing that's a great pro. He drives the training sessions and all of that. That's what Jordan does. If you speak to the players and just ask these players just how good he is as a footballer, you will get a simple answer.

But it seems to be this direction of, oh, he's a great lad and all that. Naturally, all the players are saying that. But if you sit there and ask the players just how good he is, I'm sure they dissect until he's just how good this player is. Yeah, but it's a reason why he's. at Brentford with respect, John. So I'm not disrespecting Brentford, but you want your best... Well, you are disrespecting.

I'm not in context with the bigger clubs where the players are coming from. The elite players now are playing at the bigger club. So listen, I hope you're right, because I don't know whether Jordan Henderson comes on and does the things that you think he will do, but I'll bow to your knowledge and we'll see. It'll be very interesting. I do get that argument of the experience and all the rest of it. But in a way...

No other sport does it, please. By the way, I find myself slightly veering to you some, which is for the World Cup every four years, you should be picking the absolute best players at the peak of their powers. And I'm not sure if I was picking that. But also, two calls not done that, though, is it? Two calls not done that coming into this squad. If that was the case, McGuire would be on the plane. Luke Shaw would be on the plane.

Lewis Hall would be on the plane. They're not. So he's not picked the best players. So again, you could argue that. That's subjective, John, isn't it? That's subjective. No, it's not, Simon. Honestly, it's not.

In your view, in your... No, it's not. It's a general view of the football population of the people. Anyone who's watched Maine United this year tells you that Harrow McGuire has been better than Dan Byrne and stripped that back whether he's been better this year. He's a better football than Dan Byrne. I take that argument.

So then by definition, we sit here, both you and I and concur with the view and peers as well, I think, that Tuckoo is an elite manager. So if he's an elite manager, looking at the World Cup through the prism of trying to win it. Why would he make decisions like this then? I'm actually not sure. I said to you on episode one here

that he's got 14 or 15 players that can actually start in this tournament. And other than that, I think there's players in and around it that he wants a good and happy camp where maybe you allude to what Jude had said recently of going, I wasn't too happy before. So he's got people in and around it

that are maybe not going to be starters, but they're going to be good players for the environment. And maybe that's more important to hear, because our 1415 possible starters are probably strong enough anyway. John, I know you've got to go. I just want to mention before you do, your new YouTube channel, you've launched on your YouTube, you've launched the John Terry Diaries,

and you talk a lot about the ups and downs of England's journey. Obviously, you twice were stripped to the captain's sea for non-playing reasons and so on. Let's just take a little watch of a clip here. I don't know the word for it, actually. A little bit of a piece of meat for your country and kind of we use you as and when can I get that plane? She was like, no, there is no plane. It's made feel funny.

Sorry. Did you have any like resentment towards England and the airfair not allowed? Yeah, massively. Hi guys, I'm John Terry and at last this is my YouTube channel and this is going to be my England Diaries. It's a really interesting watch

and to listen to you being so candid there, John. But it came right at the moment where Jude Bellingham, has talked about not feeling loved in the 2024 euros. He said, I don't feel like the group connected as well as it could have, for a number of reasons. Everyone's got to feel loved and feel a huge part of the team. And it's interesting, isn't it? We've just moved from the Jordan Henderson debate where he's there because he's incredibly popular,

great for team spirit, great guy for the sort of happy camp, if you like, which may well be Tuchel's thinking. But that clearly hasn't been the case. You know, you felt that you were a piece of meat, massively, resented the way you were treated by F.A. and England. Jude Bellingham felt really unloved. What is it that's causing the England setup to treat their top, top talent in that way, do you think? Well, first of all, it surprises me with Jude, because when I look at Southgate and everything that he'd done, from what I read and what I heard from everyone that was in and around those camps,

were really impressive with what Gareth done and the environment that he created within that. So that surprises me firstly. I can only really talk about my own experiences. I had a couple. The birth of my kids was one that I go into a bit more detail about the kind of FA promised me that if I'd kind of gone to the camp in Portugal,

that they would have a plane waiting for me. And now there's probably people at home going, oh, how flash is that? He wants his own plane to get back. But the birth of my kids was really important to me. And I made a conscious decision after speaking with the FA that that would be supplied for me. And then later down the line I got assurances,

you know, free the court case that I would be, I'll be trusted whatever happened in the court of law that the FA would follow suit. They didn't, that they went behind my back completely. And I think when you're at your football club, every single year of my Chelsea contract, I felt love and supported by the owners, the supporters, and everyone around it,

whether I played bad or not, I got clapped and I got cheered week after week because I've put in performances for that. And I feel with England it's completely different. You're kind of used when you're needed and when you're not. You're very quickly brushed to the side and it's us against them. And they very much go with the public perception or certainly did back in my day. So I go into a little bit of detail around that and we'll be touched on a little bit more in the next few episodes. Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, Bellingham is talking about.

about a period under Southgate where most people assumed that the kind of thing that happened to you is no longer happening. And that's why it was so interesting, I think, to see him say that. John, thank you very much. We're going to speak again on Thursday, by which time we'll have known what happened in the Croatia game. It is a massive game for England, and I'll look forward to us to setting it on Thursday. So thank you very much, John. We'll catch up with you then. Thanks, guys. Just before we go, can I get your thoughts on? Scotland than where you guys sit in terms of supporting Scotland or

seeing them do well at this World Cup? I'll tell you what I'm thinking about Scotland. The way they went down to Fenway Park in Boston well I just think as it's not the fan base is unbelievable. They were down in Fenway Park in Boston for the baseball making more noise than they would at Amden Park or

anywhere like that. It was incredible. And I do think on the night they were just an incredible forward. for Scotland. Now, having said that, it was a hysterical overreaction to a very lucky win against one of the worst teams in the world. So let's not get above ourselves. But do I, see, it's interesting because I actually had zero English DNA in me. I know that for a fact. I have my DNA tested on Good Morning Britain, and it came back zero English, not 0.01, zero. I am not English at all. I was born.

Born in Guilford in Surrey. Born of the jackal is what he is. But my blood is Irish, a little bit, actually a little bit of Welsh and Scottish, a little bit of Middle Eastern. Not quite sure what happened there. Are you going to celebrate Scotland doing well? Is it because of the question?

Well, that's what makes it interesting. I'm more amenable to saying, I hope they win, because I'm not really English. I mean, I'd like to pretend I am, but when your DNA doesn't have any English at all, what does that make me, John? John, I'm, I don't know, hopefully we're in the same space, right?

I could care as much about Scotland and winning as I could care about Norway. You know, I look at it, and I know that the jocks have made some wonderful noise, but empty vessels make the most noise, right? And when you work with Jim White that spends his entire time saying, if England win anything, it'll be his worst day, it brings you into the situation where if you had any interest, that's been destroyed from you. So I want the Scots to go deeper in a tournament

so I can watch them get properly pumped by somebody. John, what's your view? I actually like to see them do well. I think because of the facts, they're never going to win it, are they? They're never going to go as far as us or whatever that may be. So, listen, I've got John McGinn. I was buzzing for John McGinn that he gets on the score sheet as well. He's right.

Some close Scottish friends as well that are, you know, they're proud that kind of Scotland are there. But listen, they're not going any further than the quarterfinals. So I'm more than happy to cheer them on and let them have their moment for me. Quarterfinals? By the way, John, we can't let you go, actually. Now I've thought about it. the fact that one of the American commentators,

Alexi Lalla, said that James Corden was a full-kit wanker. And of course, that is, in a way, a tribute to yourself. It was the original full-kit-wanker. So, what do you feel? Did Gordon copper an unfair whack there? No, definitely not. But if he's going to do it, at least get the shin pads and the boots on and the armband and go for it.

Exactly. Do you like the fact that you are the most famous full kit wanker in the world or not? Am I? The phrase was coined... I might even appear... These shows... It was Simon, actually. I might even appear on one of these shows in my kit.

I might surprise you guys. Yeah, you should. You should. You definitely should. No, definitely do that. And finally, because it obviously broke last night, Chelsea has sold Mark Cuccarella to Real Madrid, Jose Marino's first signing. That for 52 million, I've got to say watching Chelsea against Arsenal, he was the best player, right? I thought on the pitch for Chelsea, that's not good.

Is it that immediately, as they're trying to battle back from coming 10th in the league, they sell a player of that quality? Yeah, he's going to be a big loss to us, actually. He's been one of our best players the last two or three years. So a big loss, I think, for Alonzo coming in the door and he walks out, the door doesn't look good. I think he's right up Marino Street in terms of the character and the person and the attitude he shows on a daily basis and on the pitch as well. I think one player's going to be happy and that's Saka because them two had many of really good battles.

I really like watching them two up against each other. But he's going to be a big loss to us. And listen, he spoke about it recently that he wanted to go. so he's probably been his dream to go on time from Madrid. So listen, I've got nothing but good words to say to him, and I wish him good luck. John, thank you very much, mate. We'll see you on Thursday.

Cheers, guys. See you then. See you, mate. In full kit, if you'd like to wear it as well. Having employed James Caldner, one of his first films, he doesn't need to put a full kit on to be a wanker up, I'll show you of that. I like James Corny. I've known James Cornyn a long time.

Yeah, he's an old maid of mine. Yeah, yeah. He's done... A little old oldie there. Yeah. And I've not seen him in the full... So we'll see whether he reacts to the news. But J.T., I mean, he was the original of all get-wanker.

He was. He was shaping it. No, no, he has to live with that, and I'm sure he was delighted he bought us out. I could have asked you about, that's just me and you. The mood in New York, when the New York Knicks won the basketball, the NBA fans, they hadn't won it in 53 years. And Arsenal hadn't won it in our league in 22 years. Very similar scenes.

Why do we have to keep shoehorning fucking ass on whatever here? Spike Lee. So Spike Lee supports. Oh, of course. Yeah, he does, yeah. And so actually, he's the link. So that's the link. The scenes in New York... I was watching a film called Do the Right Thing the other day with Spike Lee. Yeah, there's another link, yes. It's brilliant.

Yeah, Danny Iiello, great film. Yeah, great film. But the scenes were very similar, weren't they? The streets of New York, the streets of North London. Yeah, yeah. Amazing outpouring. It shows you that in the end, sport... Of course. It doesn't really matter what the sport is.

Sure. Sport does that. I mean, I have to say, I have always been of the thinking that when we do sport and when we celebrate, things and when we go to football matches or to sports occasions there's a sort of uniqueness about the humor about the banter about the inventiveness of the way that we sing songs i remember going to watch lennox lewis fight evander holofield and boxing fight and they were singing all who ate all the pies of don king when he came up on the screen and the americans chart was USA that imaginative stuff but the scale of the new york nix and it's sport now peers you know we talk about other things

in our different walks of life we talk about politics and economics and society but when you've got a a global audience for sport around the world that touches five or six billion people, football being that, but also you've talked about NBA and NFL as being a sport that's so prevalent in this country, the volume, and it kind of drowned out the World Cup for the first two or three days. I mean, it drowned it out to my

benefit, because I didn't have to watch a shitty scotch on Saturday night, and then I could watch the Knicks instead, because we couldn't find anywhere to watch it. But yeah, yeah, I mean, the scale of the outpouring and spending a bit of time walking around New York, which I lived in a few years ago, and talking to New Yorkers about this, and you see all the various people on the court side and see

interviews before the game in the in the in the in the in the in the third or fourth game the one that they uh lost midweek um you saw john mackero and you saw ben stiller and you saw people talking about it in such a way that it meant so much you saw jennifer lopez well timothy jellamme saying that he he would literally this has happened more than he wants to win an oscar yeah okay yeah so like well done fantastic but it's an interesting one because i mean you know again sport touches and and it should do it's one of things in life that's supposed to take you away for more than misery. Well, I felt that at Arsaw, for example, the North London scenes.

Incredible amount of people, but it didn't matter what colour, creed, age, gender. Nothing mattered. It was the ultimate unifier. And it came ironically at the same sort of period when we had the Unite the Kingdom rally in London, which was pretty divisive as they tend to be.

Also rallies on the left, equally divisive. The one thing about that celebration of North London was, for everyone that was there, none of it mattered. But that is why it's so important to try and keep sport sacrosanct in a certain way, because it's so important. You know, we see about politicians popping up. We've seen recently that the Germans aren't necessarily interested from a government level

coming to watch any of the games in America. Good. Not interesting you being there. Ultimately, through a prism of trying to influence people's your popularity with whichever particular persuasion you're appealing to. If you're representing a left-leaning government in Germany, you want to suggest that Donald Trump is the devil incarnate, aren't you? So I like to see sport being as much about sport as it possibly can be.

But you're right. What it does, it transcends people's everyday biases and takes you into a space where you can unite people. Zlatan Ibrahimovic. Interesting. I love him. Do you? You don't.

No, I don't know what I think of him. I was asking someone else before about what he is as a pundit, because I think he is a self-assured, as he presents himself. I think to have the confrontations and the battles he's had during his career, to tell Guadiole that he thinks of him. And to take the stances that he takes, I find interesting. Oh, of course, I'm surprised he hasn't attributed Sweden's 5-1 success down to him being here. Well, he wasn't there.

No, but he's still close. He went to the UFC fight at the White House. It was a Latin experience by being in the country that just inspired your boy up top from Arsenal and obviously ESAC. I'm interested to see him work harder in the media in terms of be a bit more bolder and less formulaic in his opinions. And I'm interested to see when people start to challenge what he says and how he presents himself because he's a compelling figure in the way that he presents. himself with this self-assuredness, I'd like to see him interact with me, I'd like to him interact with you, make him work a bit harder. Well, I interviewed him actually one-on-one for a couple of hours on a stage in London with

no audience just for my show. And I found him really compelling. Charismatic? Very charismatic, but also a twinkle in the eye. The ego stuff a little bit like with Cristiano Ronaldo, they're playing up to the big stage. They're peacocks. A bit like you doing, yeah? Yeah.

Actually, I wouldn't deny that. It's a peacock thing. Yeah. Right? You do as well. You just don't admit it. No, I do it with a slightly more sophisticated. Like all World Cups, I kind of feel now it's got going, all the noise around all the various politics or whatever, it does get consumed by the football, doesn't it?

It will do. I mean, you'll have the Iranian situation where you've got the game coming up, and you'll see the noise around that, and you'll see the... And they could play America. They could. Which they've done twice before, but if they played it right now... They could. But we'll see, because you've got a lot of American-Iranians that are allowed to go to this game and very clearly against their own regime

it would appear from the vox pops that are being done. So you'll see there was a big lot of noise made on other shows about the fact that there would be booing of the national flag. I think we've kind of on the bike. We see being, national anthem is being booed in our country. So we don't have to make a fore-act play out of it. But it will be interesting to see how the players react to some of the reactions that they may get.

I'm not sure we're going to see all the catastrophe on the streets or ice rocking around or whatever else is people. I don't think we're going to see any. I don't think we're going to see any of that. And so once the background noise has died down, once we get through some of the group stages where some of the dead rubbers are so less consuming in terms of people's attention,

and we start to get into the real energy, I think the scale of the tournament will become prevalent or more prevalent to the Americans, because I did the show the other day with your mates at Fox, who sent their regards to you, by the way. And they were trying to explain to the scale of soccer to them, kind of talk to them about the fact that, you know, this is a sport that has five billion.

I saw your interview. I thought it was very good. Thank you. Because it made in science. is stopping their tracks about how big it is. The scale of it. There is no sport like that. When you talk about it,

and I was sort of saying that you got a president that was elected, some of it based upon social media were 200 million followers. He got his mate, Pope Leo, there's got 70 million followers. And you got Ronaldo, your mate, and Messi, with 1.7 billion followers. Look at the scale of this sport and look at its influence. So I think it will resonate. You know, obviously the Knicks playing in this part of the world

has diluted the impact of what we've been seeing. But I think we'll see the scale. And I think we'll start to see some. outstanding football. I walked through Central Park when I got here on Saturday and the volume of people walking with shirts

and really lovely atmosphere countries from all over the world reminding me a bit of what it was like in Qatar I was going to say that exactly right and I felt that and Times Square's been very warm no incidents everyone's having a good time and I hope that lasts I think it does them as a matter of course though doesn't it

on the media though interesting question for you because we've both obviously been in the media a long time The BBC chose not to come out here. Yeah, I saw that. Somebody, I think it was Andrew Neal, made a very good point today. Well, so what? Because the ITV studio is nowhere near. It's thousands of miles from most of the games, as is the BBC with their backdrop.

I mean, apart from people in the industry. Yeah, dick waving, isn't it? Who cares? It's a little bit of witty-waving, isn't it? I mean, you look at it and say, I don't know. I mean, I've met Alex Kay Jelsky at the BBC. The guy who runs BBC's sport. I mean, they're portraying him as a woke.

I don't like some of the decisions they made. I thought football focus went down the toilet. I thought it was a poor show, just more concerned with ideological positions rather than actually showing us what was going on inside football. But I look at it and say, if they'd have gone, if the BBC had gone, there'd be a backlash in the media about how much money, the taxpayers' money was being spent

on licensing fee going towards funding a wonderful studio. On the other side of it, you've got ITV, and our guys from Talk Sport went over there and looked at it, and we were all impressed by the size and scale and the wonderful environment. the other day, you can put size and scale. If you produce shit content and the punts talk rubbish, it doesn't make any difference, is it?

I'm not saying they will. But also, I just think in the end, in the end, it's about the football, right? And if the football's great, no one's going to care where the backdrop. I mean, the backdrops are what they are, but ITV's backdrop is only relevant for about 0.1% of the games. Otherwise, there are matches in all over a Canada, Mexico, America. I mean, who cares?

Listen, I've always been curious about why is the necessity to put a correspondent outside? by number 10 Downing Street. I know what number 10 downing street fucking looks like. I don't know if you're just outside in front of it, but that's the media thing, isn't it? It's part and parts of what they consider

to be the optics of how you present something. As you say, the football will speak for itself, but also given the fact that there is a lot of airtime to fill, it's incumbent upon content, pundits, to be able to carry other content that talks about stuff that's going on and around the sport and what's happening with other aspects of player mentalities, player welfare, political landscapes.

So, again, it will still come down to the value-added part, beyond the football, into the punditry and how well they do. I agree. I agree. Unfortunately, we have one of the best pundits in the world. Me. In your own mind, yeah. Before we wrap up, you had an interesting debate with Talk Sport about this referee. I did.

And there was a bit of a blow up on social media. He's a Somalian referee, Omar Arto, who was denied entry to the US. His salary will be paid in full. He was interrogated at Miami International Airport. 11 hours by US immigration forwards and then sent back. Now, Andrew Giuliani, the executive director of the White House's World Cup task force, said he stood by the decision. He said in the case of referee, he was talking to some bad people right as he was coming into the United States. There's some classified information we can't discuss now at some point that may be released.

I mean, do you believe that? Look, my first reaction to it was, given the state of the Somalian relationship with the US in terms of the US think that their government doesn't issue passports properly, they think they haven't got particularly good return policy of people that are deemed to be offenders that they're longer wanted the US. And given the fact, people have got links to Al-Shaban, the terrorist organisation,

that was my first default setting. I said, well, if that's the case and the visa's being rejected, then, you know, the reasons has been rejected. That then reduced shouts and screams of racism, which is absolute nonsense, because it wasn't predicated upon that. Then you look into it, and you find out that these allegations have been made by the US government

or their border control. I don't know, peers. I don't know whether they should be producing a little bit more. If they want to make these outlandish claims, and here's the reason why, because the kids get in a terrible reputation on the back of this now. He may go back to his home country, and that continent may bristle and unite about the awful American policy.

And he's now been given an opportunity to go and referee a game for UEFA in the big competition between Aspen Villa and PSG, the Super Cup. And he's been given a national hero status as a result of it. But he still carries a quite significant slur against his name. name. So I do think... Well, I feel the same way about people... They should produce it. Well, when people get banned from coming into the UK, you know, a friend of mine, Cheng Yugo, who comes regularly on unsensored,

very anti-Israeli government and their policies, but he's never been anti-Semitic to anything I've ever seen or heard. And he was barred entry to coming in, actually, one of the things was going to be appearing on my show in London, then go and do the Oxford Union and to appear at a big other debate festival thing. And he got banned, but they didn't say why. And I think it would be... be transparent with public figures. But he's important views, though, to some extent. I can get that more.

I think any public figure who is banned, whether you're a World Cup referee or someone like checking. I think the government that does, it should say this is why we ban them. And they can be judged accordingly. I'm inclined to agree with that. But also, I don't want that to be a slippery slope to making sure to having to have an sense of entitlement.

Every time a government makes a decision or someone in authority makes a decision, they have to account for every aspect of it. So there's a balancing act. But I don't disagree in this situation. that there should be, I mean, African Federation will write to the American government, whether it produces anything, I think it's a little bit of grandstanding on their part, and I think it will produce nothing.

But I feel that it would be part of me wants some validation for suggesting I supported the outcome in the first place, to wave at people saying, well, actually, there was substance behind this. Well, the truth is we don't know. We don't know. What I have done, though, I have arranged for Donald Trump to immediately deport you for the crime of wearing a pink jacket. with a face that is clearly extremely sunburn. And the clash for viewers, I think, is beyond the pale.

And it's a portable effect. It's not sunburn. It's just my temperature's going up with the irritation of listening to your drivel. That's what it is. Good to see it. In New York, you're staying. I'm going back for a bit. I'll probably come back out.

I think England have got a chance. So do I. But I do think the heat's going to be a factor. So do I? But I think England have got a good chance. Yeah. I think if they can stay relatively injury-free and they can deal with the conditions,

We've got a great chance. We will find out Croatia's tough team. And the Scots have no chance. No chance. No chance. But they have already won best fans of the tournament. They have fun. They were fantastic. I would love to be in the Tartan army. The problem is I can't really stretch my DNA really to Scotland. So I'm good to sort of. We'll talk again on Thursday. We won't again. That's it from World Cup Uncessing.