Piers Morgan Uncensored - "We Are TERRIFIED!" Israeli Settlers Rampage + Hamas Arms Deal | With Norman Finkelstein

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

As violence in the occupied West Bank continues to escalate, one of the most influential figures in Israel's settler movement joins the programme. The interview follows a diplomatic clash between Israel and Spain after Israeli officials criticised Madrid over a surge of migrants crossing from Morocco into the Spanish enclave of Ceuta. Israel's Ambassador to the UN, Danny Danon, accused Spain of hypocrisy, saying it should explain why it still maintains "colonial enclaves" in Africa before criticising Israel. The exchange reignited debate over competing claims of colonialism. Israel and the United States recognise Morocco's sovereignty over Western Sahara, a territory whose status remains disputed internationally, while Israel itself faces sustained international criticism over the expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank. Against that backdrop, attention has increasingly focused on the settlement movement and its growing influence within Israeli politics. National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir has repeatedly voiced support for expanding settlements and has also called for Israelis to resettle Gaza. In tonight’s Uncensored, Piers Morgan is joined by founder of the Nachala settler movement, Daniella Weiss, Palestinian Christian pastor Munther Isaac, author and political scientist, Norman Finkelstein, historian and professor Benny Morris, to discuss. (00:00) Introduction (02:10) Daniella Weiss joins Piers to discuss the on-going settler violence against Palestinians (03:03) Is a Jewish life is worth the same as a Palestinian life (10:00) Amnesty International says Israel created a campaign of ethnic cleansing Palestinians (19:36) Palestinian Christian Pastor Munther Isaac reacts to Daniella Weiss’ interview (21:21) The crimes of Israel (23:34) Munther Isaac’s comments during his interview with Tucker Carlson (27:42) Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris debate settler colonialism in the West Bank (38:00) Piers asks Norman about Ghazi Hamad’s comments about Hamas crimes (46:14) Did Hamas weaponise sexual violence? (51:43) Will Hamas accept the proposed deal to demilitarise? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Are you and your supporters ethnically cleansing the West Bank? We want the Jewish state to be for Jews. From Danielo Weiss at one end of the spectrum to Benny Morris at the other end of the spectrum. The explosion of the population in the West Bank and in Gaza is deeply rooted in Zionist ideology. It sounds like a self-hating Jew. Norman Finglstein. Benny Morris described the Palestinians as, quote, a sick, psychotic people. The Palestinians certainly behaved in a psychotic way during the second day in Tifada.

Unfortunately, it has become a nation of child killers. Israeli officials were quick to revel in Spain's embarrassment as tens of thousands of migrants poured across the Moroccan border into its territory last week. Ambassador Danny Danon said, before it continues lecturing this, its time it explained to the world why it still maintains colonial enclaves in Africa. Well, many people felt this was

a pot-kettle black moment. Israel and the US both loudly back the Moroccan claimed of Western Sahara, where many indigenous groups say the occupied Moroccans are, well, colonists. And the Israeli government has done little or nothing to stop the violent expansion of settlements in the West Bank,

where a major crisis has been quietly unfolding for months. Security Minister Ben Gavir has encouraged the settlers In fact, he says he wants Israelis to colonize Gaza next. The BBC recently visited the settlements and got a glimpse of why violence is taking over. Sounds like you're saying one Jewish life is worth hundreds or thousands of Palestinian lives. Not million.

One Jewish life, it's 10 million, okay? That just sounds racist. Yes, I know. Well, Danielo Weiss, who's the founder of Natchelah, is often called the godmother of Israeli settlers. And she joins me now. Welcome back to uncensored, Daniela Weiss. We just saw a clip from the BBC report in the West Bank, interviewing Yehuda Shimon, a lawyer was an organization that represents Israelis arrested for violence against Palestinians. Now, when a top Israeli lawyer says on camera to the BBC that one Jewish-like...

is worth 10 million Palestinian lives and says he knows it's racist to say that. It feels pretty outrageous to the rest of us watching. Were you outraged by what he said, or did you agree with him? It's an expression that I did not use, so you should ask him about it, and I am responsible for my expressions.

So this is not the kind of sentence that I would use. Would you say that a Jewish life is worth exactly the same as a Palestinian life, but one life is worth the same as another? I'm sorry, I didn't get the full sentence or the full question. Could you please ask it again? Would you say, therefore, that one Jewish life is worth the same as one Palestinian life? It's not, I mean, I just said, but I'm ready to say it again. I know that according to my religion,

human beings were created. The human being, the first Adam, was created by God, and all human beings were the result of this creation. So why do you bring me into this channel of comparing one to the other? I respect people of other nations, people of other religions. The only situation where things clash

is when other religions, people of other religions or other nations clash with us, with Israel or with Jews. I don't see us attacking others or clashing with others unless they start. And I think it's a well-known thing. So I don't know what corner you are in now. I really don't understand.

You know how a religion. You know the Jewish religion. Just to be, yeah, just to be, right, but just to be clear, somebody else that follows your religion, Yehuda Shimon, who's a lawyer with a big organization that represents Israelis arrested for violence against Palestinians. He is the one that said a Jewish life is worth 10 million Palestinian lives. I think it's interesting and notable that you don't agree with him.

But I'm just asking you in the context of what he said. I don't know the person. And if you want to dwell on this, it's your decision. I have so many things to say to think about... No, no, no, I'm going to come to other issues. I guarantee you. This is not why we got you on the program, but it is a story that's happened in the last few days.

It has caused a lot of outrage. I think it's notable that you don't agree with what he said. But I just want to be quite clear. No, I don't. I don't. I don't want to give. I don't agree. But just to be, no, but am I right in concluding that you believe a Jewish life is worth

the same as a Palestinian life and a Palestinian life is worth the same as a Jewish life? Do you agree with that statement? I try to listen to the previous item of your program. It was about men and women. So like what you're asking now about Jews and other people, reminds me like comparing between a man and a woman. Each one, each individual has his characteristics, his nature. And what is the point of this comparison?

I'm a woman. I don't understand why you can't just give me a straight answer. I am and you're proud of what you are. A Jew is proud to be a Jew. And a Muslim is proud to be a Muslim. So what's this comparison? And especially, well, let me help you. I explained to you that I didn't know about it.

Let me help you, let me help you. Let me help you understand. Let me help you understand because you're clearly struggling with this. I think my life is worth the same as your life and your life is worth the same as mine. I'm a Catholic, an Irish Catholic. You are an Israeli Jew, all right? I think we're both worth exactly the same. I've asked you twice, and I'll only ask you one more time, but would you agree that a Jewish life is worth?

of the same as a Palestinian life? Yes or no? I know that you like yes or no questions. Yes or no? It's a very simple question. But I think that it is like a question, like a question that refers to differences between sexes. What is more, woman or men?

Say yes or no. Well, it's not, though, is it? One clear answer. I don't want to give a positive answer. Daniela Wise, it's not the same. Let me. It's not the same. It's not the same because you're a woman and I'm a man,

but I think we're both worth exactly the same, right? A man is worth the same as a woman. A woman is worth the same as a man. So I'm just struggling to understand why you can't just say a Jewish life is worth the same as a Palestinian life. Would you agree with that? I think that all human beings, all human beings are the same.

I know, you've said that several times. But the point is why you came to this point? Why are you asking me this question? It's on the basis of some clash. But you know why? I just told you why. Danielle, why is I told you why? Because a senior Israeli lawyer says that a Jewish life is worth 10 million Palestinian lives.

I told you why. I don't understand why you can't. I do not use. You keep talking about gender and everything else. I'm like, look, it's a very simple question. Do you think a Jewish life is worth the same as a Palestinian life? Yes or no? You either do or you don't.

I think that all human beings were created by God. This fact in itself shows that all human beings are the same. So is a Jewish life worth the same as a Palestinian life? Yes or no? No, I will, you will ask the same question, and I will give the same answer. Why don't you want to say yes or no? In Hebrew, in Hebrew we say, chaviv adam, shenivvra be cellem. The nature of our flesh and blood, the nature of this creation,

is that it is God's creation. Why do you want me to extend on this? Because of clashes? I just want you to answer a simple question. But look, I've tried three. Some of someone once. With respect, I've asked you three times, a very simple question. You choose not to answer it.

That's your prerogative. You don't have to, but viewers can make their own minds up. Let's turn to what's happening on the West Bank. Amnesty International has accused Israel of orchestrating a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Palestinians in the Occupy West Bank. It's in a report published in June. It claimed the false displacement was a result of deliberate state policy

rather than actions of individual settlers. Are you and your supporters ethnically cleansing Palestinians from the West Bank? The thing that I do, and people from my movement, Nakhala, and the activists and the settlers all over, what we do, we establish communities, many communities on government property,

which is on millions of dunams. And I can say with much satisfaction that in last two years, more than a hundred new communities were established over Judea and Samaria. You call it occupied or West Bank. it's the birthplace of my nation, of our nation. I am so proud to sit here and to say in your program

that I am so happy that after the terrible massacre of the 7th of October and going so down in our history, we overcame and we really managed to create a situation in Judean, Samaria, that the Oslo Accords, are over and Palestinian state is over. And this is really what preoccupies my mind and not who is better and who is a Jew and who is not a Jew. What busy is my mind is that the Jewish nation fulfills its vision in the heart of our homeland. This is where I am. And you know me already. It's not the first time that we like exchange thoughts and questions and and This is my one preoccupation to fulfill the word of God

that he said to Abraham, come, go on a high hill, see the land, walk through the land and build the land. And this is what I do. All the other things are... No, I understand. The problem is you're seizing and taking land, which is you're seizing and taking land, which is,

The trouble is you're seizing and taking properties that belong to Palestinians. The United Nations data indicates that more than 100 West Bank... Let me finish my point. Let me finish my point. Let me finish my point. The UN data indicates that more than 100 West Bank villages were fully or partially emptied between January 2023 and April 26. Last week, the UN's human rights office warned that violence in the West Bank is worsening. As of 20th of July, 18 Palestinians have died this year in attacks involving settlers.

There were 190 attacks per month in the first four months of this year. If that trend continues, then it will lead to more than 2,000 attacks by the end of the year. The number of settler attacks has increased each year since 2023, following October the 7th, rising to 1835 last year. So it's very clear what's been going on. And that is that Israeli settlers have been rampaging around the West Bank, taking property that is occupied by Palestinians. And that is a crime, as you know, it is illegal, and it is condemned by most of the rest of the world. So my question again to you is, is your intention to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from the West Bank?

if, as you say, this is your homeland, then presumably you would like to get rid of every Palestinian from the West Bank. You want them all gone, yes? I see we clash again. The way you express things and the way I express this, of course, from my point of view and for the point of view that you represent at this specific instant, What we do in the land of Israel, and of course on the mountain ridge, is returning from the diaspora after long years of dispersion, and we are building the land that was wasteland at the end of the Ottoman Empire. This is what we do. And the things that you bring here, one number and another number do not represent the point.

positive Zionistic success of redeeming the land that was desolate when we were not here. This is the real history of modern Zionism. We came to a land that was deserted and we made it paradise. And the best proof for it is that Arabs from all over the Middle East, want very much to come and to be part of this party. And these clashes sometimes with our vision and our plan to establish a state for the Jews and not for Arabs from all over the Middle East. Right. But your pride in what you're doing,

yes, I disagree with your pride in what you're doing because actually what Israeli settlers are doing in the West France. With what? Is they are breaking... You disagree with what? I'm about to tell you that Israeli settlers are breaking the law by taking and rampaging through Palestinian homes. And they are removing Palestinians from their homes. They are in some cases killing Palestinians, setting fire to their homes.

And they are seizing property and land that is not theirs. That is a crime. So you are perpetrating many, many crimes on the West Bank. which is an obscenity. We speak so much on the program. Listen to me. Listen to me. We speak so much.

I invite you to be with me. I'm a very good guide for Judean Samaria. You can see with your own eyes how the size of property that is still to establish settlements on. Plenty of government property. We do not have. to cause any harm to any individual in order to continue building the Jewish state. You are causing harm. You will see it with your own eyes. Daniela Weiss. But Daniela Weiss, you are causing enormous harm. 18 Palestinians have been killed. There were 190 attacks per month in the first

four months of this year. You are attacking Palestinians almost every single day. So you are causing enormous harm to Palestinians in the West Bank. And many people believe that your real plan is to get rid of all the Palestinians from the West Bank. And ultimately, Gaza, too. Can you tell me, can you like, would you like, yeah, would you like Palestinians to all be removed from the West Bank? No, this is not one of the, this is not my, the attitude of my religion. As a, you know, this is a, this is not my, the of my religion. As a Jew, I go by the Bible and I go by Joshua's biggest settler ever by his laws. The people who live in Israel and accept Israeli sovereignty can live. Those who fight us, we fight. Those who do not accept the fact that in the

land of Israel, the Jews are the only government, the only sovereign, they cannot see So either you accept our sovereignty. If you fight us, we fight, and if you do not accept it. You just, your item before my, your interview with me was about Morocco coming to Spain, if I'm not mistaken, but it was a bit not clear, but this issue is going on. So every country, once every nation, nation wants her country to be country for the people of this nation.

And I don't understand how you came to such a confusion about it. We want the Jewish state to be for Jews. It is such an obvious, such a clear, universal acceptance. So, okay, I repeat my invitation to you. Come and see it with your own eyes. The problem is it's obvious to you. It's not obvious to the rest of the world who perceive what you're doing in the West Bank

to be crimes. But we're going to leave it there. Daniela Weiss. I'll tell you about the rest of the world. What joining me now is a Palestinian Christian pastor, Munta Isaac. Welcome to Uncensit. Thank you for having me, of course.

What is your reaction to that interview with Daniela Weiss? Because from where I was sitting here listening to that, it seems to me pretty clear what her intentions are on the West Bank. But the problem with that is that the Israeli settlers are rampaging around grabbing any Palestinian homes that they can get their hands on, which is a crime. Yeah, don't listen to me, listen to the settler leaders themselves, listen to Bingverin, Smutrish and others. They've called it, we need to encourage Palestinians to leave.

we need to encourage Palestinians to migrate. That has been the Zionist plan since the very beginning. And it has certainly accelerated since this government took over, but the building of settlements is not a new endeavor. What we're witnessing today is an unprecedented violence that takes several forms. Of course, the death of Palestinians is what's being reported, but beyond that, it's arsonance, it's burning homes,

burning trees, uprooting trees, burning mosques, it's polluting water. They're doing everything they can to encourage Palestinians to leave these villages. And as you said, they managed to succeed to empty many communities. That's obviously the plan that they state. And unfortunately, because of the silence and impunity of Israel enjoys in the international community, the plan continues. And just to be clear, what they're doing. is criminal?

What they're doing is horrific. We're afraid for our lives. Every time I drive on outside of the Palestinian controlled areas, the cities, and of course even within the Palestinian cities, I'm in Ramallah now, and we see the Israeli military all the time. But whenever I drive with roads that we know settlers are around, I'm afraid for my life. We live in constant fear from what they're doing.

And Palestinians are defenseless. We can't defend ourselves. And when Palestinians don't defend ourselves, tried to defend themselves, the settlers enjoy the protection of the Israeli military. And that's why I think we need to continue to emphasize that it's not the problem of radical settlers as if they are outlaws and the government can't control them.

The military protects them, the military accompanies them, and they are helping implement the plan of the current government of Israel and many governments before that to annex more and more land from the West Bank. And when we say annexing the land, they want the land, the geography, but they don't want people in it. And that's why the government allows these attacks to happen with the hope that they succeed in pushing more and more Palestinians outside of their towns,

their communities, their villages, while, of course, making empty statements to the international community that they condemn these attacks. But we know that they're doing nothing to stop them. Actually, they're protecting these settlers. Your previous guest invited you to come. I invite you to come and see the horror Palestinians and villages live on every single day. And I invite you to come and listen to the stories of horror

that has been well documented and that has been allowed to continue day after day after day. Yeah, well, I see the reports and I see the footage. I don't need to see it for myself. It's being widely reported. I think it's indisputable what's happening. You yourself have been called. quite a controversial figure.

The Jewish insider described you as the high priest of anti-Semitic Christianity. After an interview you did with Tucker Carlson in 2024, they claimed that on October the 8th, the day after the appalling terror attacks of October the 7th, you said in your sermon, what is happening is an embodiment of the injustice that has befallen us as Palestinians from the Nakhba until now. Anyone following the events was not surprised by what happened yesterday. One of the scenes that left an impression on my mind yesterday, and there are many scenes,

is the scene of the Israeli youth who were celebrating a concert in the open air, the Nova Music Festival, just outside the borders of Gaza and how they escaped. What a great contradiction between the besieged poor on the one hand and the wealthy people celebrating as if there was nothing behind the wall. Gaza exposes the hypocrisy of the world. Did you stand by those comments? Because many people felt that they were effectively trying to justify Hamas slaughtering 1,200 Israelis,

including hundreds of young people at the music festival. Yeah. Thank you for asking me about that, Pierce. Because these words were said the day after the attacks when what was reported is that we didn't know the exact numbers. one fathom that 1,200 people were killed, and we didn't know that a massacre took place in the music festival. And I certainly condemned the killing of civilians,

innocent civilians in their homes or the kidnapping of children. Nothing I said condones or justifies violence. I'm trying to explain what happens, and namely that the attacks happened as the aftermath of a brutal, brutal siege. In fact, please, if you look at my talks, my writings, over the years, I've been consistent in believing in nonviolence and in believing that every life is worth the same.

All lives are equal. Every life matters to God. All of us are created in God's image. And that's why I've never believed that violence solves things. At the same time, when we try to explain to people, you know, so much has been said about, the horrific events of October 7th and their impact on the psyche of the Israeli society. Now, imagine how many October 7 did the Palestinians endure over their lives.

And that's what I was trying to explain, that the people of Gaza have seen enough, and all of a sudden we thought they were rebelling against their siege, but honestly, we didn't realize how much innocent people were killed that day, and we've been consistent in saying, not just we believe in nonviolence as Palestinian Christians myself, but also that, you know, even if you believe in resistance, you can't justify killing innocent civilians in their homes.

And I hope that everyone agrees with us, because that has been our cry since Israel's retaliation, the genocidal war that happened since October 7th, against the people of Gaza, which continues today. So would you unreservedly condemn what Hamas did on October 7th? When it comes to killing civilians, and kidnapping children and families and going home to home and shooting or what happened in the music festivals. Yes, I can't I can't condone that as a man of faith absolutely

But when it comes to Palestinians right to resist their occupiers That's what we as Palestinians emphasize this is what the international law guarantees us as long as You know we don't target civilians and as they said I'm even against violence itself Well, but it's good to hear I think that's what we need we need to to hear people on all sides condemning the violence when it occurs. And there's been way too much violence generally going on in that part of the world now for many, many, many years, decades.

I appreciate you joining me. Thank you very much. Thank you, Piers. Thank you. Well, joining me to debate this is author and political scientist Norman Finkelstein and historian and Professor Benny Morris. Well, welcome to both of you. Norman Figuesty, welcome back to Uncensored. This whole issue of what is going on on the West Bank.

I've had Daniela Weiss saying that this is merely a case of Jewish people reclaiming their land, nothing to see here, nothing criminal, they're not doing harm to anybody. But we've just heard from a Palestinian Christian pastor who says the complete opposite. certainly from the news footage we've seen, it's quite clear that Israeli settlers have been waging a campaign of terror on the West Bank now for a considerable period of time, which most of the international community views as criminal activity.

What is your view of what is happening on the West Bank? My view in what's happening in the West Bank is basically this, that the expulsion of the population in the West Bank and in Gaza is deeply rooted in Zionist ideology, as Benny Morris himself wrote, the idea of transfer, which is just a euphemism for expulsion, the idea of transfer is inherent and inbuilt

in the idea of Zionism. And as Benny Morris himself said, the problem with the Israelis or the problem with Ben-Gurian, David Ben-Gurian, Israel's first prime minister, the problem with him was that, quote, he didn't complete the job. That's what Mr. Morris said.

And also Mr. Morris has written that that's a tiny spot of land and there's no room, I'm quoting him, there's no room for two peoples in that land and that there should be only one people there, one state, a Jewish state. So all of that is not new, but as your previous guest stated, there has been an escalation.

escalation since October 7th. And that was pretty predictable because, as you know, the cliché, every crisis is also an opportunity. And the Israeli cabinet, not unlike, by the way, my own American government after 9-11, they shed some salty tears. Here I refer both to my government and the Israeli government. They shed some salty tears after the massacres,

and then rubbed the tears. their palms in glee, here is an opportunity. In the case of my own government, the opportunity was first Afghanistan, then they thought Iraq, then they thought Syria, then they thought Iran. That was their plan, to exploit to the maximum 9-11. In the same way, Israel, since October 7th, yes, the salty tears were shed, and then they rubbed their palms in glee. here is a unique opportunity. And the unique opportunity was first to solve the Gaza question once and for all.

And the way they wanted to solve it was a massive expulsion. The means to achieve that massive expulsion was genocidal. And then they proceeded to eliminate Hezbollah or they thought they eliminated Hezbollah. And now they're trying also in the West Bank, And of course, the big target was Iran.

And there too, Benny Morris, for years, literally every couple of years, he would write an op-ed saying two things. Number one, Israel has to attack Iran. And number two, if the United States doesn't join in, Israel has no option except to use non-conventional, i.e. nuclear weapons. So the claims, the presumptions of Daniela Weiss are shared across the Israeli spectrum.

Benny Morris described the Palestinians as, quote, a sick, psychotic people, quoting him. So the presumptions, the assumptions, the assumptions of Daniela Weiss, they may sound rapid. to an American viewer, but they are typical of Israeli society from Danielo Weiss at one end of the spectrum to Benny Morris, who was once Israel's leading historian at the other end of the spectrum. Just one last word. If you look at the current UN report on the deliberate killing of Palestinian children, they describe describe many scenes of the settlers, a setler, a group of settlers urinating on a child, a group of settlers kidnapping a four and five-year-old child, brother and sister, and tying them to a tree.

A bunch of Israeli soldiers, not settlers, soldiers, attacking a 16-year-old who is hit hearing impaired and kicking him on the ground. And then a group of soldiers attacking a fellow shooting him, he's on the ground pleading for help. The soldiers stand around laughing, filming the scene, and blocking any medical aid for him. The soldiers. Remember, Israel is a citizen army, the soldiers are representative of Israeli society, just like Daniela Weiss at one under the spectrum and Benny Morris at the other end is representative of Israeli society.

It is, unfortunately, it has become a nation of child killers. Benny Morris, your response to that. Well, it sounds like a self-hating Jew, Norman Finglstein, and the woman, Daniela Weiss is obviously a religious messianic fanatic. I don't think either of them should represent anyone, and they certainly don't speak the truth about most Israelis, as Finklstein would have it. The Israeli settlers in the West Bank, many of them, are behaving illegally, and the government is going along with them. and protecting them in various ways, certainly not prosecuting them for committing these crimes more or less on a daily basis in the West Bank, because they ultimately support eventual annexation of the West Bank, and they believe that removing small communities of Shepherds serves that purpose, this annexationist purpose.

And I, of course, and I think at least half of the Israelis, don't agree with this. doesn't represent the Israeli public, as Miss Weiss, who's, as I say, a fanatic, doesn't as well. I did use the phrase psychotic, and the Palestinian certainly behaved in a psychotic way during the second intifada when they exploded bombs in buses and in streets and killed over a thousand Israelis during that second intifada, that rebellion in 2000. 2001, 2002, 2003. But I wouldn't call the Palestinians in general psychotic, but they have behaved very poorly.

They're very poorly led. They're divided between one fanatical movement, which is misogynist, the Hamas, misogynist, homosexual, anti-homosexual, homophobic, Jew-hating, they're anti-Semitic, and they hate the West in general, much like the rest of the Islamic Islam. Islamist world. And here we have a problem which Finkelstein doesn't seem to understand that the war in Gaza was the first step in an Islamist, pan-Islamic war against the Jewish state, dedicated to eradicating the Jewish state.

The Hamas began on October 7th. The chisbalah of Lebanon began the next day from Lebanon, and eventually the Houthis in Yemen and the Iranians from Iran itself, all. attacked in successively the the Jewish state and Israel is surrounded by the Islamists who want to destroy the Jewish state and the Jewish state Israel doesn't say it wants to destroy a the Islamic world or Iran or Lebanon but but this is the way it is and Israel has basically been defending itself I don't like the Israeli government I don't like the way it defends it defends Israel it's done so incompetently don't believe, incidentally, in expulsion. I've never said that the country between the river and the sea belongs only to one people. That's not my position. There are two peoples

there, both with claims to the land, and it should be ideally divided between the two peoples in two states. That's the ideal solution. The Palestinians have always rejected it. Today's, the Israeli government also rejects it. But most Israelis and many Israeli governments and the Zionist movements since 1937 has always agreed to partition and to two states between the river and the sea. Unfortunately, the Palestinians have always said no to this. Okay, Norman Figustein, I want to play you a clip. This is from the Hamas spokesman, Ghazi Hamad, who came on on Censit on Monday. Made a lot of news this. Let's take a look.

Hamas as liberation organization, we never commit crimes. We never kill civilians. We try all the time to liberate our hondo from the deprivation. Well, that's complete nonsense, Mr. Hamad. Sorry, sorry. I'm major. I have to interrupt there. When you say you don't commit crimes and you don't kill innocent civilians,

we all saw what happened on October the 7th in 2023. You had 3,000 members of your organization, Hamas, pour over the Israeli border and commit a series of despicable crimes in which you massacred innocent civilians. all over Israel, you then captured over 250 of them, including Holocaust survivors and a baby. So the idea you've not committed crimes is ridiculous. I think 100% I'm confident that 100%

we never commit crimes again as severe. Maybe some mistake happened, but it is not the policy of Hamas. It is not the community. Well, there weren't mistakes. You've gunned down innocent people. Norman, I mean, it is plainly, ridiculous for the Hamas spokesman to try and pretend they didn't commit any crimes on October the 7th. I presume you would agree that's ridiculous. Yes, I've said on several occasions,

and here I'll echo your previous speaker, Montere, I guess his name is. Is that correct? His name? I don't want to mispronounce it. Munter, yeah. I'm not sure quite how the local pronunciation is, yeah. Yeah. He said when you quoted him from his sermon right after October 7th, he said he wasn't aware of the magnitude of what happened on October 7th. And as you know, I have said the same thing. But once it was clear, the magnitude of what happened, it was clear that crimes of a significant magnitude were crimes. I know some human rights organizations will also say crimes against humanity. so crimes of a significant magnitude occurred on October 7th. So there there's as far as I could tell, no disagreement between us.

I would say, however, some of the claims that were made about October 7th, for example, that Hamas had weaponized rape and sexual violence, I don't believe those claims have been borne out by the available evidence. If you allow me, Mr. Morris, They weaponize drape. They weaponize drape. You'll have your turn, Mr. Maris. Allow me to have mine.

Why are you lying? Why are you lying? Okay. Ms. Perth, you'll have to decide how to litigate at this point. Allow me my time. He will have his time. So as I said, there were crimes in a significant magnitude. Okay.

Okay. Thank you so much. So on that point, there's no disagreement. The two issues, as I see it between us, if you allow me, and you can, of course, disagree with me, because I'm interpreting you. The two issues between us are, number one, the allocation of moral responsibility. I have said repeatedly that I refuse to condemn Hamas in the same way as my own country's abolitionist. those who oppose slavery, they refused to condemn the largest and bloodiest slave rebellion led by Nat Turner. On the contrary, they said, speaking to white society, they said, we warned you,

we warned you, we warned you. If you treat people this way, if you dehumanize them, if you exploit them, if you kill them, don't be surprised. if at some point there will be a bloody, and they acknowledged ugly slave rebellion. That is also my position on Gaza. That's number one. The second place where I believe we disagree, and here I consider it a significant disagreement,

just as the first one is significant, where we secondly disagree is on your terminology. You describe what Israel has done has been disproportionate. disproportionate. You describe what Israel has done as being over the top. Those are your expressions. But in fact, what Israel has done is very proportionate. It's proportionate to its goal. Its goal is to achieve an ethnic cleansing by use of genocidal means. If that's your means, then what Israel has excellent,

executed is proportionate. It's not over the top. It would be over the top or disproportionate if it were a war, if you were trying to inflict a military defeat on the opposing army. But that's not what's happening in Gaza. That's not what's happened since October 8th. The prime minister was very straightforward. He said, remember Amalek, kill every man, woman, child, and other things. Or President Herzog, there are no civilians in Gaza. Or defense minister Galant, we're going, we're going to prohibit all food, fuel, water, and electricity from entering Gaza. This is pure nonsense. That's a formula, That's a formula for genocide. Okay.

Now, I'll let me ask you, Norman, let me ask you. Last word. Okay, but Norman, I want to ask you one last thing too. I just want to ask you, it struck me listening to Benny Morris, who will respond at a moment. It struck me in his first response to you, that he must have said a number of things in his response which you would, if you were being fair-minded, agree with.

So what did you agree with him about in terms of his overview? Here's the problem. Benny Morris, I'm speaking to him not as somebody who knows him personally, though we've met. Benny Morris wears many hats. He wears one hat when he's speaking in Israel or in some of his writings. But when he's speaking to a Western audience like your program, he likes to appear to be humane, even a little bit impish, a little bit cherubic. He has a little smile and a laugh.

So he is a moving target. I have asked him on several occasions. I have written more than 50 pages because I've read everything you've ever written multiple times. Just answer me in print. If I am misapprehending you, just what any scholar does, you reply. He says he will answer me. Right now he'll probably.

say, oh, of course I'll answer Finkelstein, but he never will. So finally, you have to pull down the facade and expose somebody who on all political and ideological issues is indistinguishable from Daniela Weiss. Okay. Benny Morris, respond on the wider point in a moment, but first of all, let's talk about this issue of whether Hamas weapons, rap and sexual abuse. Earlier this year, an independent Israeli investigation published details of systematic, widespread sexual violence by Hamas on October the 7th.

The Civil Commission's Silence No More report says in addition to interviews with survivors, it has more than 10,000 photographs and videos filmed by attackers. I have seen other reporting by people like Christina Lamb at the Sunday Times in the UK, who is one of the best journalists, I would argue, in the world, and certainly not partisan in any sense, reporting extensively on the weaponisation of rape and sexual assault by Hamas.

And yet there are people like Norman Finklstein who are adamant. It never happened. What do you say to that? Well, as I said, it's nonsense like most of what Finkelstein talks and says. As you say, there were witnesses who ended up alive and saw rapes. There were lots of women who were raped and murdered and looked like they'd been raped and murdered. And there were also rapes, incidentally,

of Israeli hostages, women hostages, and I think at least of one case of a male hostage, raped by their Hamas captors while they were held in Gaza after October 7th. So I think this is pure nonsense. I noticed that Finkelstein said that he doesn't condemn the Hamas attack on Israel because it came after a lot of Israeli

oppression of the Palestinians over the years. And incidentally, that's a point I have made myself that the Israeli occupation since 1967. And if you like, what happened in 1948, in some way explains how the Hamas

did what it did on October 7th. But this doesn't justify what happened, as Finkelstein was saying, and as this priest was trying to say, who incidentally, you asked them to condemn the Hamas in of October 7th, and he said, I don't condone it. He didn't say, I condemn it. He didn't say what

you asked him to say. Yeah. I didn't know if you noticed that. But it... I did, yeah. Well, that's what happened. He didn't actually condemn it. But, look, Finglstein's take is ridiculous. I don't want to get into an academic dialogue with him. I've written what I believe is true of the history, and I've also written journalistic pieces regarding various things. The use of of the word genocidal may go down well with a left-leaning or a delusioned Western academics, but that's not what happened in the Gaza Strip. There was a war there. Hamas took the first stage, started the war, launched the war, and Israel struck back. You can say that Israel may have struck back disproportionately. That's a question which is up to, I don't know who,

to decide whether it's disproportionate or not. but the Israeli counteroffensive wasn't against the population of Gaza. It was against the Hamas. The Hamas was embedded among the people there in the houses, in the residential buildings, in underground tunnels, under hospitals, under mosques, inside mosques, etc. And for the Israeli troops and the Air Force to get at the Hamas fighters, they ended up collaterally killing the people among whom they were embedded, who incidentally supported the Hamas, who are their children,

and fathers, et cetera. They're not divorced from the general Gaza population. This is an idealized version of what goes on in the Gaza Strip. But in any case, there was a war. Israel killed tens of thousands of people in its counteroffensive, but told most of the civilians in most places, get out of this district, that district, the next district, and even individual houses called people up in their homes and said, we're about to attack the city. this house because it contains Hamas positions or Hamas personnel. You have an hour to get out of here. We're bombing it.

And they told people to leave. This isn't what people do in a genocide. Genocidiers, what they do is they actually round up people and massacre them. Israelis didn't massacre anybody. Didn't line up people on the wall and shoot them. They told the civilians, move aside. We want to get to the Hamas. And a lot of people were killed in this process because the Hamas, as they said,

hid among them. The word genocide is an absurdity. I've actually studied a genocide, the genocide by the... Let me add one sentence. I've actually studied thoroughly one genocide, not the Holocaust, the killing by the Turkish Muslims of the Christians in Turkey over the years 1894, 1924. I know exactly what a genocide looks like. You kill the men, you drive out the women,

you kill the women, you rape the women, and you eventually kill as many people as you can. This isn't what happened in the Gaza Strip. Okay, Danny Viglstein, off the back of my interview with the Hamas spokesman. May I respond? Let me just ask. I would like to respond to that.

You can, you can, but Norman, I also just want to conclude the debate by looking slightly forward, because there is supposedly a deal that's been proposed by the Americans where Hamas have apparently agreed if the Israelis leave Gaza that they will demilitarize. Do you think that is remotely likely to happen? Well, let's start with the basics.

I usually start with international law. And you'll forgive me if it sounds pedantic. And as international law has become more and more marginalized, fewer and fewer people are believing in it, but I still believe in its basic precepts. In July 2025, the International Court of Justice, the Supreme Legal Body in the world, ruled that Israel's occupation of Gaza, Israel's occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Gaza, are illegal under international law, and Israel has to leave as quickly,

as rapidly as possible. That's the first precept for me, or foundation stone. for me. The ICJ, the highest... He asked you about Hamas disarming. Sir, Mr. Morris, this is not the Westman. You're not answering his question. You have to carry on in a civilized fashion. Very difficult for you, but try. Okay? Thank you.

So, the bottom line is, Israel has no title to any of Gaza. Number two, under international law, law, there is no prohibition on a people using armed force to expel an occupying power. There is no prohibition on that. Number three, it's odd that we should discuss Hamas having to disarm. Hamas committed a crime of significant magnitude on October 7th. Israel executed a genocide in Gaza, and it continues in its aim. of trying to expel the entire population. So why is it that Hamas has to disarm itself,

but Israel, the genocidal state, also the state that has breached the prime precept of international law by launching an aggression, a brazen, flagrant aggression, the most brazen, the most flagrant in the modern world, against Iran. Why are we talking about Hamas having to disarm? But there's one last point, and this is the critical point. Yes, you've said enough. The critical point. There was no war in Gaza. Hamas is not armed. Pears ask yourself a simple question. Gaza has been hermetically sealed for three years.

How can it possibly have any ammunition at this point? This whole Hamas disarmament is a red herring so as to enable Israel to finish up the job. It began on October 8th. And it has, as its point men, Nikolai Milanoff, who gives vomit a bad name. Okay. Fannie Morris, a final word to you.

Israel wants to Hamas disarmed because it doesn't want a repetition of what Hamas did on October 7th against Israel's civilian population in the south of the country. We don't want a repetition, and we don't want Hamas to do exactly the same thing. If you want to talk about Iran,

you should mention that the Iranian regime slaughtered 30 to 40,000 of their own people, Muslims, Iranians, a few months ago. So I wouldn't call it a very innocent country or a very innocent regime. Israel is afraid that the Iranians are making for, are trying to get atomic weaponry. And they have said they want to destroy Israel and will use that weaponry to destroy Israel. And that's why Israel has launched its attacks against Iran last year and this year. And that's why America joined them, incidentally, because Trump, whatever is shortcomings,

understands that atomic weaponry in the hands of fanatic Islamists, in Tehran are a danger not just to Israel, but to the Middle East and perhaps the world itself. I agree on that point. I'm going to leave it there. Thank you both. I'm going to leave it there, Norman. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Norman, I'm sorry. We've run out of the time. I thank you both very much indeed for a very interesting debate. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Arjeb, Pierce. Pierce.

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