Piers Morgan Uncensored - World Exclusive: Baby Reindeer’s ‘Real’ Martha Fiona Harvey

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

The hit Netflix Show Baby Reindeer premiered just over a month ago and has earned its creator Richard Gadd rave reviews, along with praise over how he portrayed themes of stalking and sexual abuse. But one person who isn’t impressed is Fiona Harvey, a woman internet sleuths quickly identified as the ‘real’ Martha Scott, who harasses Richard Gadd’s character Donny in the show. On Piers Morgan Uncensored, Fiona repeatedly denies stalking Gadd in real life; calling him 'psychotic' and a 'liar'. She also makes it clear that she’ll be taking legal action in the near future. Piers does press Fiona though, on the fact that Gadd claims that he indeed possesses around 41,000 emails from her. Also, She reveals that she uses four separate phones, saying “I like keeping people on separate phones”. Editor's note: Netflix and Clerkenwell Films were approached to respond to the allegations made in this interview. They chose not to comment. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This show is incredible. Baby reindeer. He got absolutely obsessed. My beef curtains. I did not move. Everybody is talking about baby reindeer. Now fans are trying to find the real people behind the story. Because it does depict real life events.

Blown up so quickly and so fast all around the world that I didn't expect it. First of all, why have you decided to go public? When did you know that you were the person being depicted? He says the whole thing started because he felt sorry for you. Be ever being to prison? What do you feel about Richard Gagat? You think he's mentally un-washed? Did you ever turn up at his happen?

Would you accept that someone who did that would be very obsessive about something? Here's the thing, I don't know the truth. You do. Look down the barrel of that camera. To people who still doubt you, what do you say to them? One of the first things that viewers of baby reindeer

are told by Netflix is that this is a true story. Not based on a true story or inspired by real events, but a true story. It's emphatic about that. The show's writer, comedian Richard Gadd even plays the lead role himself.

Many millions of people across the world have now seen it. It's one of the biggest Netflix shows of the year. And I've watched it all. It's a riveting, emotionally intense drama, worthy of all the critical plaudits it's now receiving. Viewers are gripped by the apparently real-life struggle of a fledgling stand-on comedian who is mercilessly stalked by an older woman, Martha,

in a three-year onslaught of harassment. Martha bombards him with tens of thousands of lurid emails, leaving hundreds of voicemails lurking outside his house, attacking his partner, even confronting his family and friends. Now, Richard Gadd said that he and Netflix had gone to such great lengths to disguise Martha's real identity that she wouldn't even recognize herself. But that wasn't true. Many people did recognize her very quickly.

And the moment at the center of the story was outed online within hours, simply by cross-referencing her posts on social media with those that were used in the show. Other details about her character bear a striking unavoidable similarity with the real woman now accused of being the crazed stalker Martha. The show raises uncomfortable questions about the line between fact and fiction, fantasy and reality. Another innocent man in the television industry has been falsely accused of sexual assault based on one of the storylines of the drama. Well, Fiona Harvey is the woman outed as the real Martha of Baby Raneer.

She's chosen to confirm her identity because she wants to have a right of reply and so in her first television interview she joins me now in the studio well thank you for joining me Fiona um first of all why have you decided to go public the internet sleuths tracked me down and hounded me and gave me death threats so it wasn't really a choice i was forced into this situation what do you hope to achieve in this interview i came on your show because you're a veteran broadcaster i think you'll give me a fair hearing um you were persecuted yourself not so long ago. So that's why I've chosen this show.

Have you watched the drama? Not at all. I've heard about the court scene, about the jail sentences and all this sort of stuff. You really haven't watched any of it? I haven't watched any of it. You're not curious to?

No, I think I'd be sick. It's taken over enough of my life. I find it quite obscene. I find it horrifying, misogynistic. Some of the death threats have been really terrible online. People phoning me up. You know, it's been absolutely horrendous.

I wouldn't give credence to something like that, and it's not really my kind of drama. When did you know that you were the person being depicted in this? Five years ago on BBC Breaking News, I saw Mr. Gart had written a play for the Edinburgh Festival, and he was holding up placards, MP's wife, stalker, and all of this, and he called it Baby Rainier. That's all I knew.

And I thought, well, I've only met this guy two or three times. I don't know him. And left it to that. I should have possibly injuncted at that stage. And when did you know that Netflix were doing something? Two weeks ago, I had just moved flat. So it was two weeks ago past Saturday. And how did you hear?

I saw on BBC breaking news that he'd sold to Netflix. And both he and this character, Martha, this Jessica actress, seemed to be promoting mercilessly. Did you think then it was you that they were depicting? I thought it was me they were depicting five years ago because of this MP's wife stalker article that had been a number done on me by the Sunday Mail 25 years ago when I was going for Donald Joe's parliamentary seat.

So I knew, I had a vague idea then. The Daily Mail then approached me on the Wednesday two weeks ago. So sort of two weeks tomorrow, but two weeks ago, if you see what I'm going, mean, and told me that I was getting death threats online, that I've been out as Martha, there were TikTok videos. Were you online at all?

Because you were before, but are you these days online? I've come off Facebook as of yesterday. Are you on X, what used to be Twitter? No, I'm not doing Twitter. Yeah, that's right. Years and years ago, I'm scared to Google up BBC breaking news. I'm certainly scared to Google up the Daily Mail. in case I am on it in some bizarre circus.

That moment you realised it was you that they were depicting from what you were reading. The sluice, as you say, had found your tweets. They compared some of the phraseology. They'd done the mass and they worked out this was you that was being depicted. How did that make you feel? Absolutely horrendous.

Absolutely horrendous. I couldn't believe you'd done that. And so long after first meeting, we're talking 10, 12 years ago. So really horrendous. I didn't know who to trust. I was told by the Daily Mail don't trust those bleep bleeps in Scotland.

Whereas I found John Dingwall of the Daily Record completely wonderful, actually. He's acted with total courtesy. I couldn't believe this had happened. I want to play a little clip. This is just some of the reaction to baby reindeer from members of the public. She ends up becoming this crazy stalker.

ever seen in my life. And this is all a true story. This is all a true story, yeah. And they've found a real woman online. So I assume in the actual thing, they've obviously given her a different name, it's a different woman. But you know what I find they always, they always managed to find a similar looking woman and the build tends to be the same. I have a theory about this though. I feel like he's done it on purpose because he knew that people would find her and he wants to make her life hell a bit. When you hear that, what do you think? The final guy on there, I think is correct. I think he always wanted this to come out, to persecute someone, to take attention away from him and this rape allegation. And I just generally think he's got extreme psychiatric problems. I mean, there's no

doubt he has problems. I mean, if you watch the, given that he's written it about himself, if you watch the whole thing as I did, all five, six, seven, says, whatever it is, he has a lot of problems. He's quite open about that. The question, I guess, which will come to, is how much of the way he depicts you is true. And your position is that it's just not factual. It's a work of fiction, it's a work of hyperbo, as I've always said. And there are two true facts in that. His name is Richard Gad, and he worked as a jobbing barman on benefits in the Holy Arms.

And we met two or three times. Those are the only three facts. Well, let's go through some of these things. So you first met him. I mean, the show shows you kind of. coming in to a London pub, you just named the pub, and he's working behind the bar, Richard Gad, and he offers you a cup of tea.

Is that what happened? No, that's not correct. He didn't offer me a cup of tea. Nobody gets anything free from the Hawley Arms. I was in for a meal with a drink of lemonade, and I was very, very hungry. I'm diabetic, so very hungry. And did you talk to him?

He interrupted a conversation. There was another barman there, and he said, all you're Scottish and basically commandeered the conversation. I was talking to somebody, it's pretty rude to interrupt. So he seemed to be obsessed with me from that moment onwards. I mean, just speaking to you, I never met you before, but you do look and sound very similar to the actress in the drama.

I haven't seen the actress. We're both Scottish. We've both got dark hair. She's considerably younger than me. I think she's about 18 years younger than me. How old are you if you don't mind? I'm 58. I'm a year younger than you. And I think Martha, Jessica, the actress is about 3. 40, 3840. It says in the show that you pursued to return to the same pub time and again, but you never paid for a drink.

I don't drink alcohol. Did you pay for anything that you had that? Lemonade or soft drinks. Would he give you free drinks? No, absolutely not. This is sort of a depiction of me as a pauper who wouldn't stand around or stand a drink. It's nonsense. It says that you told Richard Gad that he looked like a baby reindeer toy you once had as a child,

hence the name of the show. Yeah. Is that true? I appear to have written most of the show in my sleep. I dressed. Did you have a baby reindeer too? I had a toy reindeer. So that's true.

And he shaved his head. That bit is true. And there were rain dees in the show because it was Christmas time or something. It was a joke. So I have inadvertently paying the name of the show. Right. But that is true. That's true.

That's true. That's true fact. Whilst bantering with you, Richard Gad told you he'd like to hang your curtains. Is that true? This, I think, was a wholly armed joke about curtains and a lot of sexual innuendo. He did say that? Yeah. Okay.

Is it true that you caught Richard Gad looking through your window after he followed you home one way? False, false. You never saw him at your house? I didn't see him at my house. I think it would be impossible to look through a window. Did anyone else ever see him there? No. So as far as you were concerned,

He never turned up at your place. Correct. But the Netflix show has him doing that. Yes, I believe so. I believe so. I've been told that. But that categorically didn't happen. That categorically didn't happen.

In the course of your relationship with Richard Gad, you send him 41,000 emails, 350 voice messages, 744 tweets, 48 Facebook messages, and 106 letters. That's simply not true. If somebody was sending somebody 40,000 emails, or something, they'd be doing how many a day? Lots. Well, they'd be obsessively contacted.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely know it. What did you send him? No, if that's true. I don't think I'd send him anything. You know what I said him anything? No. I think there may have been a couple of emails exchanging, but that was it.

Just joky banter emails. Netflix have said that these details are the real ones. This is exactly. This is completely incorrect. So you're denying sending anything to him? There may have been a couple of emails. Text messages? No.

Facebook messages? No. Did you tweet him? I may have done years and years ago. You actually tweeted him numerous times? No, it wasn't numerous. It was about 18 tweets there or 14. It's quite a lot to someone who's not that well known.

But we were all friends. You know, it was banter. Right, but it establishes you were contacted. That's in public. Yes, I mean, this stuff is in public? No. I think when I saw the rape interview, That's actually incorrect what I said there.

When I saw that in The Guardian, I said, what a shame, it's not your fault. You did write to him. One later, one later. One later. So you would say you only sent him a handful of emails. You never texted him. No. You tweeted him 18 times, you think.

You never sent a Facebook message. Oh. And you're only one letter. Yeah. So why have they got all these details here which are supported? Who is they Netflix? Who is sent? No, correct. I'm sorry.

Who has sent all this stuff to him? I've no idea. I think he's probably made it up himself. I mean, you could prove, I guess, quite easily it wasn't you? Correct. Because it all be on your computer. Yeah, correct. That's right. Would you be happy for someone to look at that? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, yeah.

What do you have? What technology do you use? Right. What technology do I use? A very, very old smartphone just now, because the other one packed up a week before moving. That's it. Because they're all sent from an... iPhone. Yes, so. They believe it wasn't actually an iPhone ever being used. Meaning that someone was hiding the fact that they were actually not using, they were pretending it was from an iPhone. I don't really understand that. Well, people can mask where they're sending

stuff from. Okay, right. I'm not technology with kid of the year. I wasn't doing that either. I mean, obviously, when you make such an emphatic denial of the central point of the story, you're basically accusing both him but also Netflix of lying about it. I am. And that's pretty defamatory. It's not defamatory if it's true. No, no. It's defamatory that they've been to you.

Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, I misunderstood there. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I don't see how anyone could do 41,000 emails and all this kind of stuff, you know. I don't know how much you know about technology, but are you aware that if it was you sending those emails, it would be very easy for the police, for example,

to work out exactly where they come from. The IP address will reveal that. Yes, I understand that and it stays on forever. But the point is this was years and years ago. We were congratulating him for show. But it would all still be there. Yes, yes, I understand that. And if you sent 41,000 emails, they'll...

This is just a lot of rubbish. Yeah, so that should be stored there. Well, they'd all be there. Yeah. I mean, he's got them. He's not got 41,000 email. That's over a year... According to you, there's only a handful.

Yeah. I mean, how long would that take someone to type up? How many do you think you sent? him? A handful. If that. What does that mean? How many? Less than 10. 10 emails? Not 41,000. Right, there's a massive disparity between the two things.

I agree, I agree. I mean, if it's not you that sent all this, then clearly Martha cannot be you. Yes, Martha cannot be me because there are a number of allegations that have been put to me by journalists that are simply not true. There's a whole play. It's not just the emails. There's a sexual assault in the canal. there's... But if the police looked at this and if you sue, for example, then this will go to a court of law

and then on discovery, people will look into all this. The phone company will be asked about evidence of all the text messages. The internet providers will provide all the backup for the emails. Facebook will be asked about the Facebook messages and so on.

So all of this would come out in a call case. In disclosure, yes. And you're prepared to do that. Yes. Because I didn't write in the emails. Who do you think did? I have no idea. I think he probably made them up himself.

I've no idea. 41,000 emails. Yeah. I mean, would you accept that someone who did that would be very obsessive about someone? Yes. I mean, that's a lot of emails. And why now?

Why didn't you go to the police at a time? Or this sort of doesn't make sense? I mean, the fact that Netflix have said this is based on reality. This is a true story that Martha did the real-life Martha, the person they based this on, who Richard Gad has written about, is the person that sent these,

and he has the evidence to prove it. What you're saying is that that proves you cannot be Martha. Yes, and I would like to see Netflix's evidence for that, which would come out in disclosure as well. And you're 100% sure it's not you? Yeah, absolutely. It goes on to say that you heckled Richard Gagd when he was appearing in his stand-up shows.

Did you ever do that? No. Never? No, it's not. Did you ever attend his stand-up? I think I went to one. It was a long, long time. And you never shouted out or anything?

Why would I do that? No, no, I mean, why did anybody do that? Do you ever shout out at comedy shows? I don't know. No, no, I don't generally go to comedy shows. So you never heckled him? No. Did you ever attack Richard Gads' girlfriend because you were jealous?

No, I don't think he had a girlfriend. I think he's, say, homosexual, but no, I have never been to his house, or attacked any girlfriend or anything like that. There are lots of scenes where Martha is sitting outside his house all day for many days, sitting in a bus stop, sitting out there, walking around, and would occasionally shout at him. Did you ever do that? No.

I haven't seen the show, but I'm getting... I have, so I'm telling you. Yes, I got all the court allegations, the trial allegations. I'm going to come to that. But on that point, did you ever turn up at his house? No, I don't know. I don't know where he lived. No, absolutely not.

So whoever's doing all this is somebody completely different? This is a fictional character, hyperbole, exaggeration. This is a figment of his imagination. They say it's based on a real person. Who's they? Netflix. Well, Netflix and Richard Gad. Netflix are about as mad as Richard Gadd. If they're saying that, it's absolutely not correct.

Did you ever contact Richard Gad's parents and threaten them? No. That allegation was put to me by journalists, no. Never happened. No. There's one key point on the drama that has Martha's character pleading guilty to intimidating Richard Gadd in court and sentenced to nine months prison time.

Let's watch. You're charged with the stalking of Mr. Donald Dunn between the dates of the 14th of August 2015 and the 22nd of March 2017. Are you guilty or not guilty? Guilty? You were charged with the harassment of Gerald Dunn and Eleanor Dunn between the dates of the 6th of June 2016 and the 22nd of March 2017. Are you guilty or not guilty?

Guilty? Now again, there is obviously a resemblance between... Do you think so? That's hardly flattery. Well, I don't mean to flatter you or not value you. I just think there is a resemblance, you know, having met you and you both speaks, you know, Scotland. people. But the fundamental point of this is did you take part of that? Did you go to jail? Did you have a trial? Of course not. Of course not. Have you ever been to prison? No.

Have you ever been charged with a criminal offence? No. Never. No. Nothing. Nothing. So that scene is completely invented. That's completely false and I don't think the actress sounds like me. I mean people compare me to Lorraine Kelly but I look nothing like Lorraine Kelly. We all happen to have dark hair and we're Scottish. You know, I think the actress Is this from Glasgow? I think, but I'm not sure. But they... And which part of Scotland do you from?

I'm from the Central Belt. So a slightly different accent? It's slightly different. A Scott would know the difference. A Scott would know the difference. A Glasgow accent's very distinctive. But that's a fundamental point here, because if they basically have a key point in their drama,

which they say is a true story, which involves you admitting to intimidating Richard Gadd and getting a nine-month prison sentence. And that is completely untrue. That's completely untrue. very, very defamatory to me, very career damaging. And I wanted to rebut that completely on this show.

I'm not a stalker. I've not been to jail. I've not got injunctions, interdicts. This is just complete nonsense. But it's, I mean, you'll know yourself. If you're charged with a criminal fence, it will go fine, bigger fine, whatever.

Very few people go to jail. You'd have a pleased record. Nowadays. Have you ever changed your name? My surname was double-barreed. What was it? Muir Harvey. Muir Harvey.

M-U-I-R-R-H-V-E. Yes. When the parents got divorced, I changed it to Harvey. So your maiden name when you were born was... Yeah, that's right. M-U-M-U-R-R-V-R-V-R-V. So that's quite a unusual name. Yeah.

So if you'd ever received a criminal conviction for anything, it would be on police files. Yes. And what you're saying is you've never been even charged with an offence. No. let alone the one that they... Yes, I mean, this is nine and a half months in jail. It's pretty serious. Did Netflix ever contact you?

No, no one's contacted me. Never? Never. Did Richard Gad tell you what he was doing? No, I had worked it out when I saw the festival, Baby Rindeer advert on BBC. The Edinburgh Festival, which is the show you did. I just happened to see that.

I was looking up the news for something else. Because that's where he... I just happened to see that. Well, that's where he started telling the story, and that got picked up. I was shocked. I was shocked. And I think Martha Vem was a bar stool. I seemed to recall reading that.

It wasn't an actress or a person. It was a barstool. Let me just show a little clip. This is from Lorraine, actually, who you just compared yourself to. But let's take a look at this. Well, other people do. This is Richard Gad on Lorraine. I just thought it was the right time to sort of try and bring a nuanced conversation to something.

I think the human condition is extremely complicated. And I felt like a lot of art and TV in this day and age. It maybe simplified it too much. It's not a villain and victim's a storyline. I think you're left with a lot more than that. It's kind of two lost people. What's your response to that? I think they're milking it for all its worth for the money.

She doesn't even sound Scottish in that interview. Her accent seems to be varying. Well, she's not. She's English. She's an actress. I was going to say it sounds more language. To me, yes. She's an actress.

She's putting on the voice for you. They're milking it for all their worth. It was the right time for to abuse someone on all over social media and all over, you know, basically somebody who's not from Loveland, not from Theateland, just abuse me all over the newspapers. They're happy with themselves. What do you feel about Richard Gad? I think he's psychotic.

And I think that anyone going along being in that play and doing this to somebody, I found that. I find the behaviour outrageous. He says the whole thing started because he felt sorry for you and that's why he befriended you. Your staff said that to me in the waiting room. This is a lot of nonsense. I've got lots of friends.

What did you talk to him about? It was just a holy arm's banter. It was like what? What kind of thing? What are you going to do with your life or, you know, career stuff? You know, sort of, and I thought he was a stand-up show. But is it possible that he was under the impression? that he felt sorry for you?

No, I never got that impression at all. I got the impression that he was all out for himself, wanted to sort of control that bar, very, very inarticulate, very full of himself. I should never have gone in that bar. Do you wish you never had? Yes, absolutely, absolutely. How long did you know him for, Richard Gereux?

two, three months. Two, three months, at maximum. He only worked there in certain days. Did you always go on the days he worked there? No, I've been there in different days, having food. Have other people from the pub contacted you? Nobody's contacted me. No one or two.

About this apart from the media, the mainstream media and stalkers on social media. He says Richard Gaddy, didn't see you as a villain, but as somebody who is unwell and needs help. Yeah, well, he maybe should look a bit closer to home. home to himself as someone who needs help. You think he's mentally unwell? Yes, I think he always was. Whether there was an alleged rape

or whether that rape was real or conceived in his mind, I think that would make him more unwell. Well, that's a rape that he says happened. It was a television person. We don't know who it was. Somebody was falsely linked with it who turns out of nothing to do with it. But it's a very graphic scene in the drama

where he is brutally raped after a lot of drugs are taken. And he's kind of very, he appears to be in the drama, very self-reflective about himself. He's no angel, he's not perfect. He's made lots of mistakes. And he didn't treat you in his eyes as a villain, like he says. He felt that you were both slightly lost souls. I didn't know the rape scene was in the play until this morning.

Somebody's daughter had watched it and told me about it. So I was surprised once again. Well, I'm not surprised, actually. I'm really surprised by anything he does nowadays. He seems to have written a couple of other shows about this alleged rape than this one. And we've had no apologies from Netflix or him or nothing. I mean, for someone who says he feels sorry for me,

I've had no apology. And I have, this Martha character seems to smash up a bar, sexually assaulted him in a canal, been to prison there are a number of other allegations there. None of that is true. That's not true. He says that people shouldn't try to find out the identity

of the real people in the drama. Do you give him credit for that? No, no. He actually tweeted this. People I love have worked with and admire, including Sean Foley, who was the man wrongly accused of being the rapist, are unfairly getting caught up in speculation.

Please don't speculate on who, any of the real-life people could be, that's not the point of our show, lots of love Richard. Pierce, I'm sorry, I can't see that. The date of that tweet, I can't actually see any of it. That was literally, like, a few days after it was released. Right. I saw the headline. It was all over BBC breaking news two weekends ago for four days,

with Martha promoting herself, the character, Martha, Jessica, promoting herself, and him saying, don't speculate. Wow, that's a bit rich now, isn't it? the fans do speculate. Well, it was almost instantaneous. You were tracked down incredibly quickly. The Wednesday, the Daily Mail got in touch with me. So that was all over BBC breaking news, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday.

I mean, the reason that internet slews to find out it was you was they found the tweets that you sent him throughout 2014. 10th of May, for example, 2014. Richard Gad, did you get my recorded delivery letter sent to the theatre, sent to arrive bank holiday Monday? So you sent him a letter then? That was that, sorry, you were to hear you were raped, something like that. 12th of June, same year, your tweets cheer me up, your timeline is good.

23rd of September, my curtains need hung badly. We were trying to encourage him because with this first show or something like that. It's a long time ago. You know, 17th of December, please go and see Richard Gad show it's well-written and neurotic. The filmed bum shots are the best, fantastic ass. It was a joke. It was a joke. We were trying to encourage him.

Nothing negative, though, about it there? No, because I didn't think he was a complete psychopath who was going to attack me in this way. But the show did involve you? This show here, not that show there. That made no reference to... This was a previous show. It made no reference to you that show. The one you're talking about.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So, you know, it's funny this is coming up now. My view is it's all about the money. the Martha Barstow, Edinburgh Festival thing, wasn't making any money. He'd failed as a comedian, he'd failed as an actor, and therefore, let's make some money, sell this to Netflix. I think anyone in their right mind, you had a group of guys on there in their 20s.

They don't believe it. What was your upbringing like? I was going to say standard Scottish. This is it singing standard Scottish countryside. Happy, I mean, happy upbringing? Yeah, yeah, impovering. but middle class up bringing if you like. Any siblings?

I have a sister. My mother worked incredibly hard. My parents got divorced when I was nine, but she worked like a Trojan. Are either a parent still alive? My mother is, yeah. And how does she feel about this? I've not talked to her about it.

I'm hoping she'll have just seen the Scottish headlines and that's it. She's not an internet freak or anything like that. But she has no idea what's happened to you then. She will know bits. She was very, very angry with Laura Walker for doing the original article when I went for Parliament. Are you haven't thought to your mother about it?

No, and that may seem strange, but I don't want to worry her. I'll tell her I've been on this show when it airs. I don't want to worry her. Let me ask you, the son reported an interview with Laura Ray, who you've referenced, who accused you of inappropriate behaviour whilst you work with her. Now, the background to this is that you came into contact with the late Glasgow MP Jimmy Ray, who died aged 78 in 2013, and his solicit. sister-wife Laura, who was 62, when she was a former Labour Party member.

Mrs Ray said that she gave Aberdeen University Law graduate you. You did graduate from Aberdeen? Yes, yes. With a law degree. A trainee role at the legal firm McPhail Lawrence Partnership in 1997. Is that true? It was called El and L Lawrence. I think she forgets the name of her own firm.

It was called L and L Lawrence. But that's all true. She gave you a trainee job. She lured me away from another firm. She head hunted me from another firm. because she needed someone to do employment law and I'm pretty good at employment law. She said that she had to sack you days later

because you were completely incapable of behaving herself. I walked. Her staff were really, really rude to me. Most people, half the Labour Party, had been up there at one point or another and walked. She then said that following you leaving, obviously very quickly, that you then harassed her. You were then known as Fiona Muir,

as you said, Muir Harvey. Mrs Ray said she was so frightened. She issued workers at her firm with personal alarms. You were then served an interim interdict to stop you from contacting the lawyer or her politician husband. Daily record reported that. She messed up, I know, and I've still to speak to David about that,

the author of that Daily Record article. She didn't. She messed up because I went into the Code of Session, the High Court in Edinburgh to get countrywide interdicts. and interdict at an injunction in Scotland and England because I was going to move to London anyway. She mucked up... Sorry, you went into court to get them yourself?

Yes, I think there was no need against Laura Walker and Jimmy Ray. But she said one was served on you? Yeah, that's nonsense. An interim... And again, there would be a public record of that. Yeah, absolutely. You're saying that it was never served? What we think, she served the initial documents.

Oh, she did? No. she served the initial documents and then there was no hearing. It wasn't minuted for a hearing. I said I would defend but she mocked that up too. She didn't fill up a second initial document.

She then didn't minute for decree in absence so there is no interim interdicting score. Why would two people who have no contact with each other at all? Laura Ray and Richard Gadd, why would they both portray you as a very unpleasant harassing. I don't know why Richard Gatt has, but Laura Walker, it was certainly because I was going

for parliamentary selection. You get my point. Two different people. Yeah, but Richard Gatt has Googled that. Richard Gadd has used that as a place of the show. Is it when they find out that you had previously harassed this family? I haven't harassed that family. I didn't harass that family. And also I worked for it in 1987, 88.

The parliamentary selection wasn't until 2000. He Googled up the article because I knew he'd done that and I never went back to the Holy Arms. He was spreading it around Camden that I was a stalker. You've never married? No.

Have you had relationships with men? I mean, if you mind me being purer about it? I'm heterosexual. How many relationships have you had? I told staff that relationships were out of bounds a lot more than Richard Gad has, I would say. Quite a few. Well, I don't know if he had a lot.

I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Obviously, now you're going, here's my point. Now you're going public, then the men that you've dated over the years won't see this. Yeah. They'll be aware of it. They'll hear you. I don't think they, if your next question is going to be, am I stalking them?

I think the answer's going to be no. Well, I just wonder how do you think they would view you? I think they are going to think what I think. about Richard Gath, he's completely off his head. And I'm not worried about the current one because he's a lawyer. And he believes me. Yeah. He's a lawyer?

Yeah. In London. Doesn't matter where he is. You know, I'd rather... No, no, I understand. But how long have you been? Five years. You've been in a five-year relationship.

So I don't... So what does he think of this? I don't want to drag him in. He thinks this is horrendous. All of my lawyer friends do, all of my professional friends do. Other people do. People are being really sympathetic. people I don't know are saying things like,

are you getting hounded in the street. You know, people are being really, really nice. I mean, after... Anyone who does know about this. You know, here's the thing. I don't know the truth. You do. And you've been emphatic in the number of denials you're making here.

That's right. But many of those things that I've put to you can be proven. You're talking about emails and an email trail thing. All that. You know, all of that. You're obsessed with... Sorry, I don't mean to be horrible. I'm not obsessed with anything.

You've gone on at length for a good 10 minutes about the emails. Well, only because the emails... Because the vast number. Well, there's a huge number and voice messages. The voice messages he's kept, apparently. And there is... He was maybe typing me in the hauling arms. I don't know if he's got any voicemails.

But if he has 350 voice messages and it's you. It doesn't mean the drama. It's true. But is it possible he's got 350 voice messages? I doubt that very much. I just don't think so. You doubt it? Yeah, I doubt.

I mean, unless he's been taping me... I mean, if you've never really contacted him, if he's got three... He could have been taping me in the Holy Arms, though. But if he's got 350... I've not contact him. I mean, if these are on his phone. Yeah, it doesn't matter whether they're on a phone,

tablet, whatever they're on. I've not contact him. But I'm curious, why would there even be a possibility of him having that number of voice messages from me? Because he's crazy. He wants to make this up. I mean, I've not phoned the guy. I don't have his number.

You're not sure that he hasn't got those. I think he... The only explanation for having a voicemail from me would be... taping me in the Holy Arms. That's the only place we've left messages on his phone. That's the other explanation, which just didn't happen. You can't be sure? I can be sure because I didn't have his number. Right, but you just said you weren't sure if these were your voice messages. Yeah, what I mean is somebody could be taping me, you know,

somebody could have taped me in the Holy Arms, or an addictophone or something like that. Here's my point to you is that these are easily provable things. Yeah. He's either got them or he hasn't. Yeah. I mean, we'll be asking for disclosure of that. And the emails, obviously, there'll be an IP address. And that, if that leads to you. Yeah. I mean, my point is, though, even if that were true, I didn't lunge him across the bar. I didn't actually sell him in a canal.

I didn't go to jail. I understand. But here's my point to you. Here's my point to, Fiona. And I'm not trying to catch you out. I'm not trying to trap you. I'm genuinely fascinated by this story. I watched the drama.

I saw them declare it at the start as a true story. and I've seen the interviews since with all various people, and it's clearly a very complex situation of this. But unless I'm mishearing you, I think what you're saying is there is a possibility that you send a lot of emails. No, no, I didn't see that. But that it doesn't mean that you did the more serious things.

Yeah, I am not saying at all that I sent loads of emails. You maybe misheard, playback the interview. What I'm saying is a handful at most. If I did, congratulations about the show. But if he does have 350 voice messages. I know that he doesn't. And it's your voice? He doesn't.

And everyone can now hear your voice. Unless he was taping me in the holy arms. Or he just kept them on his phone? I didn't phone him. You sound unconvinced, but I don't phone him. No, I'm not. I'm obviously. No. So it's your point that you are you challenging him to reveal this evidence?

No, I just would, I would challenge him to leave me alone. Because you're calling him a liar and you're calling him a liar. And you're calling him. Netflix accomplished. I didn't use those words. I said the story, the play, the Netflix show is not true. No, but if they say that you sent 41,000 emails, they are completely wrong.

All 744 people. They're completely wrong. So they are lying? They are lying. Yes, okay. Yeah, in effect, he is lying and they are lying. And in order for a dramatization to be true, it's got to be, you know, the only defenses are.

veritas, I'm telling the truth, or the whole drama needs to be true. They have built it as a true story, so has he. And it's not. It's blatantly not. Even if the email thing was true, the rest is not. Why would you qualify that, Fiona? Sorry, why would I watch? Why would you suddenly qualify even if it's true about the emails?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Right. But when you say even if the emails were true, I didn't say it in 41,000 details. It doesn't mean the more serious stuff is. Let me rephrase that. That's really what you're saying, right? I mean, I don't want to force you into saying anything else.

That's not actually true. But it seems to me that it may be possible that you have communicated all this stuff with him, but that doesn't mean you did the more serious things. Yeah, that's true. It doesn't mean you attacked his girlfriend. It doesn't mean you smashed up a bar. It doesn't mean you did any of those things or threatened anybody.

It just, yes, you had a relationship with this guy, and you did contact him a lot. I knew this guy. I didn't contact him a lot. I've never said that in this interview at all. No, no. But interestingly, for me, he's an interviewer. And I'm just trying to get to the truth. You understand? No, no. I honestly not trying to see that. It's your show. Yeah. No, I see that. I'm just trying to trip you up. I'm just trying to get to do. I see that. He has put his version out there, and the world is watched. Absolutely. Millions and millions of people around the world have had Richard Gad's version. I know. And I'm simply saying to you that you have a chance here, Fiona, I think, and take this any way you want. But you have a chance here to concede that some of these things might be possible. But that doesn't mean the more serious things happen. Yeah. I mean, what I'm saying is... Because the more serious stuff we know is serious, right? If you were... Yeah, if you were in the jail or something... If you were a violent stalker or if you'd had a previous situation where you got this interim internet, which we know was served on you...

No, it was no. Sorry to interrupt there. No, she has repeatedly maintained this over 25 years. I checked with the Sheriff Clark. Another lawyer checked with the Sheriff Clark. We think that the previous scenario happened. She does not have an interim interdict. I think she's quite wrong. If the Sheriff Clark can produce that and say she didn't muck up and mined for decree, why was I not served an interim injunction? If Richard Gad is watching this, what's your message to him? Leave me alone, please. Get a life, get a proper job. I am horrified at what you've done. And you will categorically be taking legal action?

Absolutely, against both him and Netflix. You said your boyfriend's a lawyer, so this can be done. He's not doing it, no, I'm not doing it. Somebody else has going to do it. Have you instructed lawyers? We've instructed them in part, but we want to explore all the options out there that are a number of people to sue. We can't all be in taking courts all at once.

Who else are you planning to sue? The Daily Mail. Anyone that's saying this is true and harassing me and that kind of thing. We have not had time to do everything. If the investigation, if you sue and there's discovery, and it turns out that 41,000 emails did come from a device belonging to you, how would you feel about that? I wouldn't be suing if I thought,

there were 41,000 emails out there. You understand how easy it is to find them? I understand completely. And that if they did exist in your category that they didn't, it would obviously impact on it. It wouldn't blow the whole case. It wouldn't blow the case against Netflix because, and it wouldn't blow the case against him.

No, no, you might. Making out it's a true story. No, no, no, no. If you see what I mean, I'm buying it to my original position. I understand. And I understand that it's obviously put your life into a very difficult position. It's very. And their central claim

that they made all this effort not to lead to you being identified. I don't think it stands water. I don't think it stands water. To me, I could have, listen, I've been a journalist 40 years. I could have discovered it was you in about 10 minutes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once I'd watch. Yes, I agree. I discovered it was me when I saw the BBC breaking news baby reindeer show at the Edinburgh Festival when I was Googling up just the news that day

or the weather or something And this came up, and he was holding up a placard or a newspaper article, MPS Wife Stocker. All you need to do is Google that. Then I saw the name of the show, and I thought, bloody hell, what's he up to? And I tried to get a friend to go see the show because she was based in Edinburgh, but she was in holiday. Nobody I know had seen that show either. So I was really shocked. I was very upset for two, three days.

And then the general plan of action among my close friends. was, look, just, you know, let him get on with things. He's not going to be that damaging. You don't really know him. This will go away. When did you last have any contact with him? Famous last words. Years ago.

Do you remember when? Years ago, no. I left the Holy Arms, didn't go back, and he was calling me a stalker and things. There were various things happening in the Holy Arms. You know, other women were warning me about them and everything, yeah. About him? About him and others with bad condo.

In relation to the 106 letters that he and Netflix say you sent. Well, here's my point. You've omitted sending him one, and that presumably was a handwritten letter. Could it be, are you thinking I was maybe mistaken that I maybe did? No, no, no, I'm just saying if we accept that the one that you admit to sending is in your own handwriting, he has another 105 letters in your handwriting. Is nonsense.

Are you prepared for him to show that one? He's maybe forged things. I mean, people forge a lot of things nowadays. You think he could successfully write 105 letters to himself? Well, I certainly didn't. You admit to sending one. My point is, if it turns out the other 105 are exactly the same handwriting, wouldn't that point to me? Would we obviously bring in handwriting?

I didn't do it. You only have sent one letter? Yeah, I'm sorry. I haven't sent that guy 106 letters. Do you still email people? What do you mean? Do you send emails? Yeah, yeah.

Do you have the same email address you've always had? I had six at one point. Why? Because I like to keep people on different phones and different emails. Six different email accounts, maybe four. I think it's four to six, yeah. Was it easier? Four or six?

So you have some for your utilities, some for close friends, whatever. Yeah. Six is a lot. Is it? I don't know anybody with six email addresses. You don't know many people there. I know people with four or six emails address. Was it four or six?

I can't remember. Probably six. How many do you use today? I had four phones. I've got one today, but I only email select friends. And you have four phones? Yeah. Two broke.

They were very, very old. One was brand new and broke, and it's still to be returned to the shop. I like keeping people on separate phones as well. And maybe that makes me a maniac or a stalker or something, but if you've got somebody on about your electricity bill or somebody on about some work or something, it's nice to keep it separate, you know.

So I didn't do that in Scotland. You didn't have to, but the volume of course down here is... Do you think if somebody did send someone? Yeah. 41,000 emails. I think that's excessive, obviously, yeah. Would that, to you, would that mean someone's stalking someone? Well, yes and no.

I mean, it could be your, you know, it could be your wife. It could be, you know, you're maybe sending email. emails every day about the kids or something like that. I don't know. 41,000's a lot. That's how many a day. My maths isn't working this time of night. It's a lot.

It's a lot. Yeah. That doesn't necessarily mean they're stalking somebody. They could be great friends. You know, they could have been friends for 50 years or something. Was he ever your friend, Richard Gag? No. No.

Staff asked me that as well. No, I don't think so. You had a lot of banter with him. Yeah, but banter's one thing. Scottish banter down here is quite kind of welcome. You know, it's not really fun city, is it? It's not jokey city. Were you ever in love with him?

Yes. Is that serious question? Yeah. No. No. It's not a question of, by his own admission, he has said that he led you on at times. And he clearly was...

I gave him the brush off. He asked me to sleep with him with a big green spot in his face one day. I said, no, I'm sorry, I'm not interested. He asked you to do what? He asked me to sleep with him. He said, would I like... my curtains fixed and I laughed and he said that's a euphemism do you want me to come home with you and I said I've got a boyfriend I gave him the brush off big well big time I think you know

it's subtly subtly so but the bottom line is I think this is behind him no I don't fancy him I don't fancy little boys without jobs that sounds awful that sounds really really callous but you know people will watch this you've watched the Netflix series and like me they they will be trying to work out where the truth lies it seems to me that either you're innocent in the way that you've claimed to be and you've been horribly defamed here I think at the very least the Netflix duty of care and Richard Gads' duty of care has been a spectacular failure I agree right regardless of anything else regardless of your culpability of anything the duty of care has failed because people identified you incredibly quickly.

So they've made this what they say is a true story and everyone's worked out as you. And the picture they paint is of a completely crazed stalker ruining a man's life, albeit he accepts that some of his behaviour may have led the person on. Can I ask a question? Do you happen to know how much he's made out of this Netflix thing? I would imagine several million pounds.

Yes, I would say three to four million. A lawyer, I know well, thought he was a wee nobody and he suggested 750 to 100,000. I said, no, I think you're looking more about three or four million. And I think the more he publicises, it goes up, you know, according to how much it's streamed. I don't know. I don't know the contract they signed.

I think he's done bloody well out of defaming. Do you resent that? I don't resent any score. getting on. This is not what this is about. But he's effectively making money out of what he says. He's making money out of my misery. What he says is you stalking him. Yeah, he's making money out of untrue facts. He's been the ultimate misogynist. The actress was also not appealing for calm. He was appealing for calm. I think he did that

to sort of stir things up more. I think they knew exactly what they were doing. And I think your staff were talking about Martha, the sequel or something like this. It's just completely crazy. That's what people are hinting at. It's completely crazy. Well, your staff put that to me and put to me, should I write a book about this? Well, I've got other things to do,

but same, it's a possibility. You've got a law degree. Yeah. Law degree. So you're obviously very bright. How did you do at school? I've got a photographic memory. I was top of the school, apart from the science.

Which school was that? Balfron High. I went to the science person got the most marks because you can get 99% in the science. How many? A-levels did you end up with? I got six hires, two S-YS's. And they were all sort of, most were A-band ones,

which was when the A-band-1 was top of the thing. And with your law degree, what grade did you get? Not bad. I mean, oh, right. What was it? I just did an ordinary degree and then a diploma in legal practice. What grade did you get from? All right grades.

All right grades. But, you know, I went out partying. I didn't do an honest degree. So, you know, just box standard grades, really. What degree did you? You did a law degree? I did a law degree with 13 subjects, 13 law subjects, so it wasn't the CPE or anything, which I also have from down here, but it was 13 law subjects.

This is from Aberdeen University. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what degree did you end up with? A law degree, and then I did a politics degree after that. And what grade did you get for that? Politics women's studies. I did substantially better than that because I did more work. You know, I think in our day, when you went to university,

There's a reason you see you've got a photographic memory, but what grades did you get? All right grades. I mean, not top of the year or anything. No, no. You get a great. When you do a degree, you get a... Yeah, you're asking me, well, marks I got for 13 subjects. I can't remember.

Well, no, you end up with it. Did you get a first-class degree? Oh, no. Well, I said I didn't do an honest degree. I wanted to go out and practice, so it was an ordinary degree I did. Right, but you can't remember how you did. I did all right. I didn't do top of the year.

Hmm. But the other graduates at the same time, they don't remember you. Some of them remember me. One of them did incredibly well. He's a high court judge. Some people didn't do well. I think the general idea in the 80s was we didn't really do much work. That sounds absolutely awful. But, you know, that was kind of the 80s. If it came to it, would you take a lie detector test? Yeah. Yeah. Possibly, yeah. We'd need to consult other lawyers about that. If we set one up, you would do it.

A lie detector test for what? You know, I might stop remote or what. As you know, the police use them. They're just an indication. They use them for mass murder and things like that. Well, no, actually, they use them in many cases just to determine what they think someone said them for truth. They don't use them that much. I know you've done the programs of women behind bars and things.

I confess, I think I've just seen one. But it's not used that much. I'll be honest with you. I've done a lot of crime interviews. Since you've done a lot of crime interviews with people who have come. made it way worse offences than what you've been accused of. Yeah, I haven't. You know, way more.

Mass murderous, serial killers and so on. And it, you know, they're all, I've got to say, almost all of them are very good liars. Could it be, people will be asking this watching you thinking, either she's genuinely innocent here, or she's a terrible liar, who is capable of all of these things. I don't lie. and I tell white lies if I absolutely have to,

like when my 94-year-old ex- neighbour was dying, we all knew she was dying, and I'd phoned her in the hospital the night before, and I lied and said, you know, have a good sleep, everything's going to be fine and that. You know, so I'll tell a white lie like that when somebody clearly needed some rest. How many times did you meet Richard get?

I don't know. What would you guess? Five, six. maybe five, six times. That's it? Yeah. In your life? Yeah.

Yeah. How do you think it's come to this? If that's all true? I think he wanted to make money. I think he picked on somebody. There was a backstory there with that stalker article out there, right? So, stalking's in vogue, going to prisons in vogue. What a right to say, or English lecturers or something, write about what you know?

And to people who are watching. You look down the barrel of that camera. To people who are watching this and who still doubt you, what do you say to them? I think you should watch this. I think you should look at the number of articles that Richard Gadd and Jessica, the actress, have done, and how Netflix and he have promoted this. I think you should look at him saying, I am some sort of mental case and judge for yourselves. Because I can't change your mind on this.

I can just rebut what has been said. You need to make up your own minds. But my mind is made up. He's a liar. And my friends say likewise. Fiona Harvey, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.