Pod Save America - 1121: How To Survive a Dictatorship (feat. Wagner Moura)

Episode Date: February 15, 2026

What can we learn from other countries that have lived through dictatorships? How can artists fight authoritarianism? How should an Oscar nominee react to an encounter with ICE on the way to the Academy Awards? Alex Wagner is joined by actor and filmmaker Wagner Moura, star of the Oscar-nominated The Secret Agent — a thrilling, beautiful film set during Brazil’s military dictatorship. You may also remember Moura as Pablo Escobar from Narcos. Wagner and Wagner discuss the political parallels between Brazil and the United States, what Alex Pretti’s killing teaches us about masculinity, and the Trump administration’s distorted response to violence in the streets. They also talk about the importance of cultural memory, what the Epstein Files say about power, Trump’s reaction to Bad Bunny’s Super Bowl performance, and the gutting of The Washington Post. Jon, Tommy, and Lovett will be back in your feeds this week.

Access Storage presents Team Canada snowboarder Mark McMorris. It's a huge honor to call myself an Olympic medalist and an even bigger honor to be a three-time Olympic medalist to do those all under the Maple Leaf is incredibly special and I'm eternally grateful. Thank you, Canada, for your continued support. It's a huge honor to represent our country. Keep cheering.

Let's go Canada. Access Storage, official storage partner of Team Canada. Hi, welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Alex Wagner, sometimes host of Pod Save America, but also host of Runaway Country. This week we have a really special interview. I'm talking to Wagner Mora, who you may recognize from his turn playing Pablo Escobar and Narcos, which was amazing. But he is nominated for Best Actor at the Academy Awards. The picture he is in, the Secret Agent, is also nominated for Best Picture. And it is an incredible film, which you should all see if you haven't already. already. And what brings us together today is the talk of dictatorship, because the secret agent focuses a lot on a period of Brazil's history when dictatorship was the order of the day. And the film is set in the 1970s. And what you will notice in that film is the eerie echoes with the society we are living in today. It's not quite as overt, but certainly the freedoms that are being infringed upon, the targeting of perceived enemies, all of it has a real echo with some of the stuff we're

dealing with today here in America. And Wagner Mora is an incredible actor, but also a real deep thinker about politics both here and in his home country and sort of what this moment means for artists and people who are keen to resist tyranny. So it's a really good conversation. I hope you check it out. This is Wagner Mora and me, Alex Wagner, talking in politics. Take a listen.

I did not believe this could happen, and I am so thrilled. to have Wagner Mora on the Potsave America Sunday show. This is a real delight. I am a big fan of your work, which is I know what everybody says to you when these things start, but I really mean it. And you obviously have the best name in Hollywood. Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

It's a pleasure. I was looking forward to doing this. Really? You've been doing so much. I can't believe you really wanted to do an hour-long interview with me, but I'll take it. No, totally because, you know, I think it's going to be a different one, this one. Yeah. It's definitely going to be a different one. And I'm looking forward to doing something like, yeah.

Oh, I was gutted by the movie. I was gutted by it. I did not all, there's so many scenes. I'm not going to, I'm really going to try and not give spoilers. But there's so many levels. It's gutting on a personal level where it's like the relationship between father and son. I have a kid, I have two boys. Yeah. There's six and eight. You have three boys, right? Yeah, I miss that age. Oh, no, you don't. No, no. Trust me. Because each age is a different challenge, but it's also a different kind of, I see photos of them when they were six and eight.

It was like, oh, my God. I hate my kids so much. I hate them. I mean, I really was like, I think boarding school is a great idea. Today I was like, it's the day. It's the, this is, they finally push me over the end. They actually stormed out of the house like 15 minutes ago in my like winter clothing with a pack of Girl Scout cookies and some Gatorade. And they were like, we're leaving.

We're done here. And I was like, goodbye. Goodbye. And they will come back. Cholorically, I don't think that's going to be enough, but it might be. Bonschance. So great. So it was got, it's like, it's so visceral on so many levels.

But obviously to watch that movie, which is about a very. very specific and dark period in Brazil's history, the military dictatorship that ran from, I think, 64 to 85. Yeah. Not the end of strong men leading Brazil by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a really perilous time for anybody who dares to think freely or has inclinations and impulses towards democratic systems. And it's chilling.

I mean, I kind of wonder, you started filming this. What year did you start filming this? We shot this in 24. I'm so bad with these dates, but yeah, like June, yeah, July 24, I think. I mean, okay, so let's talk about this a little bit. You've characterized that in previous interviews. You've characterized that period as a civil military dictatorship. Oh, my God, I'm so sorry.

Hold on for, that's them calling me from up there. Yeah, because they ran away and now they're calling you. They're back. I'm so sorry. I have three kids. I totally get it. I'm back. I'm so sorry.

Are they all right, Alex, are they okay? How are they? Who cares? Just like, I don't even, I just, like, they've been slipping notes under my door. I just, okay, we're fine. Do they work together? Like, are they like a good? Right now, when they're not clawing each other's eyes out, they're united in their rage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If there's one person that understands that, that's me. Trust me. That's the Wagner and all of us. Okay. The Wagner thing, yeah. Okay. So you've characterized this period. in Brazil's history is a civil military dictatorship because both the political, there was a political organization, but also elites and civilian institutions were complicit in all of this. And I kind of wonder, as you think about that period and you look at the period we are living through right now here in the United States where you live and you see the capitulation of law firms and universities and to some degree private business or at least the wealthiest among us,

How do you sort of reconcile the movie that you made and the reality in which you live? It's interesting because this, I love this about films because films are always like an encounter between what an artist wants to say with a very particular, because we shot the film in 24, we could have, this could have been shot like in 23. Sometimes films, they, you know, they take time to be released. So when we release a film, it's the encounter of that will, that thing that an artist wanted to say it, two years, three years, four years ago with the present. And I always think that this is an interesting thing. For example, I directed a film called Marigella, right?

It was a film about a freedom fighter in Brazil, a real character. And I had to release the film under Bolsonaro's government, which was crazy. To release a film about a guy who was fighting against the dictatorship under the government of a man who praised the dictatorship and censored my film. So it's interesting to see that now, for example, I love the fact that the secret agent is being released in Brazil now under Lula,

which is a very democratic. Yeah, different guy. Very different guy. I mean, I'm a, I mean, it's hard to say these things with politicians, but I'm a fan. I think Lula is a fantastic character of Brazilian history. And but also, exactly, and now to see the film being released in Europe, in different countries of Europe, like in Spain, it's interesting the discussions about how Franco's name is coming back to young people.

people, you know, as if like maybe there was this strong president back then that was doing. So, and here in the U.S., of course, with the, with the, it's interesting because when you do the Q&As, for example, when you talk to journalists, you end up learning a lot about the film that you did, like having insights about, I've been learning about the secret agent just by listening to American audiences, for example, like kind of questions that they do. So, yeah, of course, and that's how it was supposed to, this is supposed to be, right? Like this parallels, these connections with the present, with what's going on right now. Did you, I mean, obviously you were thinking about Brazil when you made the film,

but were you thinking about the United States? I mean, was that something you conceived of? You filmed it in 2024 before Trump had won. So obviously things could have been really quite different once the film was released, but we are where we are. I mean, did you think about our flirtation with and now outright embrace? of autocracy? Yeah, I think the idea of strong governments, of strong men, I think there is an idea of

masculinity going on in the world right now. That, you know, that, and that was how it was back then with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, you know, this. And, and there was, how it was back then with, with, with, with, with, with, you know, this. the idea of the macho man that's going to evolve the problem. I was very impressed when I saw the thing that really, of course, was when Alex Petit was killed by eyes in Minneapolis, of course, that image was so horrible and so strong. But while I was watching, my brain was like, Like, I could see two different kind of masculinity there.

Very clear to me. Like, there was a man that put his body in front of a woman or a person that needed his help at trying to protect her. And then there was this other man that were pure, rage and brutality and and you could see I mean it's maybe it's just a man actually but I could go and look at

these men and go like and kind of see all the fragility that they carried with them you know all the issues that these men were carrying with them in order to do what they did to that other human to the other human beings so yeah so maybe I'm I'm traveling like I think that we are living in a moment where, yeah, it's a discussion about, there is a big thing about masculinity.

Yeah, and that's in the movie, too. I mean, there are these moments where it's like, your name's Bobby. What kind of name is Bobby? Of course, they say it so lyrically and malefluency in Portuguese, but, you know, and it's like, this is the 70s and it's like, well, what the fuck, Bobby's a pretty masculine name as far as I know. But this constant battle we seem to have through the ages, at least in. modern society around what makes a man. And so much of politics is driven by that. And I'm sure as an actor, it's something you as a man must confront in the roles that

you play too, right? This like warring ideas about what makes a man and how, I mean, I don't, like, how much time do we have to spend talking about fucking men in the world, right? But it is so determinative in terms of like society and social outcomes. Yeah, and we both have sons, right, Alex? Yeah, a lot of them. Too many, one would argue. It's five, just between us.

Five between the two of us. So it's what it is also to, yeah, what kind of values we are passing along to our sons. Can I interrupt you for a second? Because you mentioned Alex Preddy, and I know you meant, you've talked about this before, but you've talked about Renee Nicole Good and Alex Preddy as being kind of similar to the character you play in terms of outcome and I guess tragedy. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

And I don't want to ruin any endings, but I just wonder how you see a kinship between, you know, the person that you play in this movie that's set in 1977 and what happened on the streets of Minneapolis in the year 2006. Yeah, I think we are We're discussing It's about values

But I was Now I got a little lost Because I wanted to answer your previous question about About masculinity Yeah, about Yeah, because I'll go back to Yeah, of course But in the film, in the secret agent

There is something also about There is a father and son thing in the film going. Yeah. Because my character has a son, you know, but the chief of police of the film also has two sons. And the killers that are trying to find my character, it's like a father and son thing too.

So now going, I think I'm going to make a bridge between the two things. and it's about values, I think, you know, and what kind of values you pass along to the new generations because Secret Agent is a film about generational trauma. I like and how, you know, these things can be passed along within an entire country. Brazil suffered of generational trauma, I think throughout our entire history.

In 79, you mentioned that the dictatorship ended in 85. In 79, we had a law called the amnesty law that basically forgave torturers and killers. And it's like the detectorship forgiving themselves. It forgave all tortures and killers and people that did despicable things. Here we call it a blanket pardon. And everybody should be expecting more of those when Trump is on his way out of office. Like that. people that made people sort of like

Bolsonaro himself would never have been possible I think as a president if it wasn't because of that law, you know, that affected the memory of an entire country that was like there are young people in Brazil like that didn't even know that there was a dictatorship in the country and all people would go like oh maybe it wasn't that bad. Again, going back to the first

conversation, things that we're when we were talking about the time where a film is released. It's also interesting that this film is being released in Brazil in a moment where finally Brazil is sort of getting even with its memory when we sent Bolsonaro to jail. We send military people that attempted against democracy in Brazil to jail. And I think that just to try to put it all together, I think it has to do, and I said when I won the Golden Globes,

that if trauma can be passed along generations, values can too. That's so important, right? Yeah, how are we? Yeah, how can we exactly? And I think it comes to how are we educating our kids and how the society, how are the crisis of information that we are going through in society, the alignment of the tech oligarchs with the power.

That's the thing that scares me a lot in the West. Because I only kind of started to realize that recently. I'm not an internet guy, I'm not on social medias, I'm not like, but I only understood the alignment of, of, you know, Facebook or whatever, this, these guys with the far right, with the right and with the republics and with the power in the way that they are now. And they all have, they have a project themselves. And I didn't know that because back then, I guess, like 10 years ago, technology and social medias, these things were kind of like a world to be explored, even for progressive ideas, right? How can we connect?

How can we share ideas? How can the world be connected? And I think that this idea just disappeared in my mind. It's very clear to me right now that this is the disalignment. is what it is, you know. Yeah, and it's going, they're going to get increasingly powerful as artificial intelligence becomes more of our everyday reality, right? It's the world is going to be in the hands of tech billionaires who've proven in this

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plus an extra discount off your entire order. That's U-P-L-I-F-T-D-E-S-K.com slash PSA for this exclusive offer. It's only available through our link. I do want to go, I want to go to the ideas of Renee Nicole Good and Alex Preddy, because you made this film in 2024, and then these two people were murdered on video in Minneapolis in 2026. And I know you've said you feel there's a through line between what happens and what happened to people in Brazil

and what happens to your character and the secret agent and what is happening to Americans like Pready and Good in this day and age? Can you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah. Listen, authoritarianism is, I'm not an expert in that field, but I lived in a country that had not only one dictatorship, but some.

Our history is full of coup d'etas and authoritarianism and violence. and other beautiful things too, but this is a reality in Brazil. Bolsonaro is a manifestation of these forces that are part of what our country really is. And what I understood, or what I understand about this, especially when we were under the government of a fascist, a president, is that, and also too, right, going back to the books and reading about, you know authoritarian regimes is that there must be resistance we have the civilian resistance you know and I'm not talking about guerrilla fighters or like or armed resistances or anything like that but civil disobedience and and and like basically

what people in Minneapolis were doing you know and look what they what they got I mean we're recording this on the day that Tom Homan who is brought in to take the reins from the psychopath Greg Bevino and Christy Noem is announcing they're going to withdraw ICE agents. Operation Metro Surge is going to be wound down, which is a testament to the bravery and the tenacity and the organization of these moms and dads and neighbors in Minneapolis. Exactly. And that's exactly. That's the perfect example. You know, I think that this is what has to be done. Sometimes just record something or blue a whistle or like it's something that.

that shows to a wannabe authoritarian or an authoritarian government that they will face some sort of resistance. Otherwise, they just roll over and it's real fast. That's the only thing that I can say for the experience of living in a country with that kind of thing happened many, many times. And we almost had that, like in a very, we kind of had it with Bolsonaro. But if he had the second term, the way Trump is had, because we all know that the second terms are, that's when they should go, because it's basically the population saying, we saw what you did, we liked it, go for it. You know, so this is a very important moment, I think, for that kind of resistance.

The other thing that strikes me in terms of parallels is the, the, the main character that you play in the movie, part of the struggle is getting at the truth of what happened to him and what his life was like and who he will actually was, his character. And one of the most revolting parts of both the Renee Nicole Good Death and Alex Pretti was the swiftness with which the federal government decided to destroy their humanity and their memory and their legacy. and just how unhidden that. It was all happening in plain sight. It was like, we're going to deny the facts

of what happened on the ground, but we're also going to call these people domestic terrorists. Yeah. That, I think, for a lot of Americans, seeing that happen, was a real wake-up call. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit

about how to fight against that, right? Like, there's a desire to forget the bad stuff. There's also desire to look away, but part of the thing is to keep looking and keep asking questions. Yeah, there are things that cannot be forgotten, things that cannot be forgiven. And I saw the other day Donald Trump saying, like, we have to go over, we have to move on the absolute trials. And I go like, that is dangerous. You know, there are things that you cannot absolutely forget.

But when I said that I've been learning a lot about the film that I did talking to people. It's like recently in one of those Q&As, I was answering a question about what happened to my character and how it ended up for him. And I realized one thing that I hadn't thought about the film, that this is also a film about infamy. and exactly what you said, like when you kill someone twice, you know, because you kill the person and then you kill the reputation. Exactly. And that's so cruel, and that's typical of this kind of regime. I've been saying this, Alex, and I don't want to repeat myself, but the thing that scares me,

It really scares me. And when we're talking about the alignment of the tech oligrants with the power, is that and the decadence of journalism and the Washington Post just firing people. This is the thing that concerns me. The idea that the truth is over. Or the post-truth or whatever scholars call it. Yeah, that we have shared realities. It's shared realities.

You know, we don't, we, we are not living in the same mental space. You know, we are not like, it's not that everybody that voted for Trump or voted for Boston, they're not like bad people, like some of them are. But lots of these people are just people that are living in another reality. Yeah, they think the world is operating in a different fashion. It's a different, and this was something that was always, it's a thing for the far right that they have always done that. But with the technology,

now with the fact that you can have a video, this right now could be me speaking, it's me, it's my face, it's my voice, and it's not me. I know. And for me, I'm almost 50, this is crazy. I know.

You know, it's the idea that, like you said, like they can say, it's just that the resistance, that kind of thing doesn't allow them to go, that far with the lies against Reneg, good, Alex Patrick, because there are people here to say, like, this is not true.

Yeah. But it's becoming more and more common to that these kind of things are going to be taken as the truth, you know, and... Well, that people feel they're being manipulated by technology and that the real truth is not the truth that challenges their assumptions about the world. I mean, that's the thing, is people just want information, data, stories, narrators who confirm that the way they think and see things is the right way. And anything that

disrupts that is rejected as false or part of, you know, like some kind of conspiracy. And that is not good. I mean, has anyone watched your movie and not, like, have you gotten any reactions that have not seen the parallel reality between what was happening in Brazil and 1977 and what's unfolding, not just in America, but in other places with the rise of strongmen. I think that this has been very clear, and this has been the subject of all the discussions and all the Q&As and all the conversations that we've been having. And I'm glad that this, that this is, this is being like, this is, this is what, I think that's, that's why we do films. That's why we do what we do, I think. Have you been, I mean, has it, you live in Los Angeles.

And we're at a moment when this president is trying to kick out people who are legally here, people that are inconvenient for him, people especially who are from Central and South America. I mean, have you felt any particular peril going out there and being openly political about this and being outwardly critical of certain administrations? Yeah, I've been always very vocal, right, like in Brazil, especially. Yeah. And Bolsonaro, you were on his radar. Oh, yeah.

It wasn't easy. It was because, you know, in order to be vocal, you have to be also, like, willing to face the backlash. That's why I'm against when people go, people, you have to go out, you have to speak up. There are some people that are not ready to do that. And they shouldn't, because the backlash is really strong. Yeah, but I think that this is,

what did you ask something? Like, have you worried at all? No. Have you worried at all about repercussions? No, because it would be worse for me to go. Not saying anything. Yeah, to go. But this is how I am.

Again, this is me. You know, this shouldn't value, this shouldn't be the thing for everybody. For me, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I, if I knew something, if I had something that I knew I would say and people would listen to me. And I would do it. I wouldn't do it because I was afraid of something or because someone is paying me, you know, because I have an economical, financial interests that would destroy. Again, talking about values, how can I tell my kids to be honest and to be, you know,

to be, to be themselves and to stick with the values that they have if I don't do that? Right. So no, I'm not, of course, it's sometimes, I've been, again, the world is totally polarized, right? So when I say something, especially in Brazil, when I say something, like half of the country, I guess, go like, that's nice, that's cool. And the other half is like, yeah, I mean. Do you get shit? Like, do people give you a hard time in Brazil? Oh, my God.

Like, what do they do? Do they come up to you? What do they say? I'm glad that I don't have social medias because it's, you know, it's hardcore. Yeah. When I did that, my film, Marigella, and that was under Bolsonaro's government, we received many death threats. And when we were releasing the film, we had to have metal detectors at the door. Yeah, I've been, like, when I was on the street, because I go out, I was in some, I had to be really pay attention where I was, who I was talking to.

So you decided to follow that up with this film. Like, if I were your wife, I'd be like, how about an animation? How about a Pixar film, honey? I would love that. Want to be the voice of a crab? How about that? I was actually visiting Pixar studios yesterday. Yeah.

Yeah, you were. That's what I should be doing. But yeah, but I think it's, yeah, this is how I function, I think, as a person. Well, I mean, hats off to you. And I wish that we're more people. I honestly think, you know, we are living in times. say this as an American who has lived largely a life of privilege in a very free society as a journalist. But it is really feels like it's time to pick aside. You know, when they're threatening

to, you know, arrest and hang for treason, U.S. senators, when they're going after the fourth estate and when they're terrorizing communities of color in American cities just by virtue of disagreement, it's like, this is the hour. This is the hour to say something. And I think, you know, Hollywood is one thing. But if you have a pulpit, if you have a voice, why not use it? I mean, I do want to ask, though, because I say this, and you're in Hollywood, it's another sunny day. You were at Pixar Studios. I was in Hungary, early last year, trying to get a sense of what it was like to live in an autocracy. And one of the things, as an American, I didn't fully under, I did not grasp the lived experience of being in

Brazil in the late 70s, right? I think most Americans, because we're largely ignorant about world history, think of Brazil as like Carnival and like Kaibrijinas and whatever. The movie takes place during Carnival, which I thought was really interesting. But they think of Brazil as an hour, which is happening right now. Well, I mean, the Lenton season, right? My God, it's so the best. But just talk to me a little bit about how, you know, we, I do feel like autocracies now are, they're not like the gulags of yesteryear.

They're like, Hungary is a lovely place to visit. go have a cocktail and a great meal, but there's not real freedom of speech. Yeah. Right. And Brazil, it's like, it's still this beautiful place. It's bucolic. There's a lot of sex happening. A lot of sex in the movie.

Yeah. Not gratuitous. Yeah. Very, very sexy. Very authentically of the fabric of Brazil. Colorful. Yeah. Exactly.

That's not true. It's just hard for people to understand that just because your day-to-day life can be one of sunshine. and beaches, it doesn't guarantee that you have real freedom. And I wonder how you as a Brazilian think about that period. And just the way, you know, people like enjoying their lives. They don't want to have to worry about darkness at the edge of the frame. You know, when I did Narcos, I was living in Colombia.

Bogota back in the 80s was the most dangerous city in the world because of the bombs. Pablo Escobar was putting on the streets and everything. And I was asking my friends in Colombia, I was like, hey, whoa. How was it to be, to live here back in the 80s? What it was? And they were like, dude, we were going out. We were going to bars and living our lives. And then boom, a bomb would explode.

Exactly. And that's one thing that I love in films is to see characters. I love to see characters that want to live, that like to be alive despite of the situations. Because that's how human beings are. Yeah. So we're not monolithic. Of course, it's hardcore to be under. a detective ship. But one of my favorite scenes in the Secret Agents when he realizes that they're

hitmen looking for him and he goes downstairs and carnival is going on and goes like, okay, so he gives himself to the carnival and goes. And that's, for me, that's very humane. That's, that's, but you were right about this thing. The detectorships, not detectorships, but authoritarian regime nowadays. It's interesting, man. And I mean, when I think about the dictators, the dictators from South America, back in the 70s and in 60s, there are all those military guys with, you know, like those hats and things. Uniforms. Yeah, uniforms.

And it's interesting that they all now, they are perceived as, it's exactly like you said. I haven't thought about that. It was like, yeah, this is just, you know, like this is it. This is normal. This is, this is, it's more like a cynical. That's just one thing about Donald Trump that I think it's interesting. What? Yeah.

Tell me. When he, for example, when he invaded Venezuela right now, he didn't say they had mass destruction. weapons or anything like that. He was like, no WMDs. Oil. You know? We're,

straight up, we're robbing this fucking country. We want their oil. That's what we want. And I was like, wow. Because, yeah, I feel that nowadays, these authoritarian guys, they passed as they like to behave as democratic guys. They don't, it's like they don't want people to know it's like a full-on detaintership. Like, you can still go to Zumba class.

You can still get a smoothie. There's just no press anymore. And also, if you're brown, if you're too brown, we're going to deport you regardless of whether you're an American citizen. To another country that's not even yours. I mean, but that's the thing of the United States. It's like, it's a very careful line, right? You're nominated for Best Actor.

We have a Best Picture nomination. And, like, those are hallmarks of a free and fair society that would champion that level of artistry that addresses the subject of dictatorship so directly. But it's also like, butch, butchers. shit, the rest of the countries, like, go to Minneapolis. I was there three weeks ago. That sure as fuck did not feel like a democracy, right? And you say, like, I'm nominated for an Academy Award, but if I see eyes people on the street.

Right. I've been asking myself, what would I do? What would you do? I don't know. Because my instinct, and I know that I have this instinct in me, which my must be. my wife gets very nervous about, which is like, fuck you. Right. And I have to be careful with that.

That's insane. Can I just say this is insane? Yeah, because you are going to the Oscar. And I speak with an accent. Yeah. It's like they, and they go like, I don't know what would I do. I don't know. Should I just pretend that they're not there and try to walk?

I don't know if I could be. able to do that, you know, or my reaction would be like confrontation. And that could be very, and that could put my life in danger. Yeah. Do you, do your kids are old enough to know about what's happening. Do you talk to them about it? Yeah, they went to a manifestation against ice a protest. Yeah, a protest here. And what did, do they talk to you about what you should do or what you would do as a family? I mean, that's so insane that someone who's up for best actor is like, If ICE comes, fuck, I don't know what I do. I don't know.

I don't know. No, we have conversations here about politics. And I just wanted to be safe, you know, like when they, the younger ones, I have, my, my kids are 19, 15, and 13. And the 15 and the 13, they were like, dad, there's a manifestation against ice. Some of our friends are, they're going, can we go? I was like, yeah, you should go. But I was like... Worried.

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Access Storage presents Team Canada snowboarder Mark McMorris. It's a huge honor to call myself an Olympic medalist and an even bigger honor to be a three-time Olympic medalist to do those all under the Maple Leaf is incredibly special and I'm eternally grateful. Thank you, Canada, for your continued support. It's a huge honor to represent our country. Keep cheering.

Let's go, Canada. Access Storage, official storage partner of Team Canada. When we talk about sort of like masculinity and the ways in which fathers and sons can impart lessons to each other and just how much of our political moment is dictated by toxic masculinity, I must ask you, since you just sort of made a glancing mention of the Epstein files, like, what do you think of all that? I know that the corruption of the elites was something that happened in Brazil in this period, something that a lot of autocratic and dictatorial societies are familiar with because you really can't get far unless you have buy-in from the richest and the most powerful. But when you see this Epstein stuff come out, like, I mean, what do you think of it? What is it? What is like, what was your thought when you saw all the people that were mentioned in that while? It's crazy because I sometimes, I catch myself like in a sort of like Q and on sort of like. well i mean i think all of us were like oh yeah i was like this like going on maybe maybe kind of

we hit on something there conspiracy theorist about because for sure we're talking about a financial elite right that that that when i heard a nolm chonsky was involved in this thing i was like yeah man you know this is this is it you know for sure But most of the people involved in these scandals are, you know, conservative politicians. But it actually didn't, it's not about right or left. No, it's about power and wealth. It's about power and wealth. And for me, that is coming from a country where social inequality is the biggest issue.

You know, it's the biggest issue of Brazil. And every time, with the exception of Lula, that's why I respect him so much. But every time a president in Brazil or someone tried to do something about it, this person got ousted, you know, got impeached, or there was a coup d'etat or something, every time because people make lots of money.

The interest rates in Brazil, it's like, I don't know, I don't even know. It's like the biggest in the world. And so the banks makes lots of money financial. It's a system that they don't want to be changed. So it's just, yeah, it's just, yeah, it's hard not to go like, oh, my God, this, this world has been ruled by lizards. Do you, is it weird to be in a place like Hollywood when this stuff comes out? because he made inroads. He was always, Epstein was always trying to get to Hollywood.

And there is a certain, like, Hollywood can look away from things that doesn't want to see. We know that from the Me Too movement. And I just wonder, like, I wonder what it's like to be a bit of a radical and to be politically engaged and being someone who's ready to resist in a, in a, and I'm not asking you to, like, smear Hollywood. But so much of Hollywood is transactional. And it's just about, like, you know, who knows who and power and access. Don't expose yourself, be, you know... Exactly, yeah.

Yeah, but, you know, of course, in a way smaller scale, I lived this in Brazil as well. Yeah, yeah. It was a star system in Brazil as well, and it did operate sort of in the same way, so in a smaller, in a way smaller scale. And it's, yeah, it's how the same that we spoke in the beginning. I understand, I really understand people that don't want to go out there and say things.

You know, although I agree with you, if there's a moment to go out there and say, shit, I think it's now. It's now. But I understand who doesn't want to do that, you know, because people are not equipped emotionally or, you know, or intellectually or, you know, or intellectually. Or didn't, don't, people shouldn't talk about things that they don't understand. So I get that. I get that, right? I get that. But it's for me, yeah.

I'll keep being myself. Again, the thing that I tell to my kids all the time is like, be yourself. You know, what you are is good enough. Don't try to be something else. Don't try to impress anyone. You are wonderful, just the way you are. Just be yourself and you'll be fine. Stick with the values that you have.

And you, meanwhile, are going to be someone else every couple months. I'm kidding. I know what you're saying. But yeah, but that's another thing about it. And I will be Pablo Escobar. No, but that's the point. For me, it's interesting. I've come to realize more and more that when I play a character,

it's way more a version of myself than anything else. You know, like it's not like the idea that actors like put masks in front of them. So you're not method. I think we expose ourselves a lot even when we play characters like Pablo Escobar. Can I ask you? I ask you this because you're from South America and Trump's ramp up to the Super Bowl and Bad Bunny performing and was like so the racism usually like lives right on the surface. But in that moment and the aftermath, it was like the degradation of Latin culture and the accusation. and the like, the accusations that, like, you can't be part of America.

You know, Bad Bunny saying, together we are America and ending the Super Bowl, listing off, including your home country, all these countries, and suggesting, like, the prospect, the promise of this place is its inclusivity and that you can be Brazilian, but you're also American. How did, like, how did that moment strike you when you were, I mean, I don't know if you watch football, but, like, I assume the, like, the sort of, like, do you speak English? what language do you speak? Like the whole debate about having this performer

and what he said ultimately in his joyous celebration of a halftime show. I didn't see the whole thing. I saw a video afterwards and I thought he was beautiful. I thought he was brave. Because for me, it's always what I could be here talking to you and saying things

and I can say here right now. I think Donald Trump is racist. And I keep telling this doing this all the time, this wouldn't be as important or as, or stronger than, for example, the film that we did, the secret agent. I think that what, what fascists are afraid of is not, they're not afraid of, because they, any fascist government, they attack journalists, they attack artists, they attack universities. But with artists, I don't think that they are afraid of what we say publicly. They are afraid of what we do. This is what concern.

them, you know. And so bad bunny in the gramis, he went up there and he said, eyes out, and it was like, fucking cool. But what he did with that performance is way more powerful. Totally. It's his, it's his talent and that's what he was born to do. And the way he did it, I thought I was very moved. Me too. And, and of course, in Trump's reaction is a clear, display of racism. But also fear, I think, too. And fear. And fear.

That's what I'm talking. And fear. That's right. And fear. Because to your point, I mean, Trump wants to believe as much of a cultural idiot as he is, I think you're totally right about artists being a very powerful bulwark to authoritarianism. Because they have the hearts and the mind of the people. They have this magic to them.

that can't easily be stamped out and can't be dismissed as partisan chicanery. It's like it's something that Trump will never have that magic that Bad Bunny had. And the goodness and the like joy of that performance is the opposite of what he's offering to the American people. And he being such a narcissist, you know, for him. Yes.

That's not a, there's a... But you said very right. Like fear is a... I'm convinced that the whole, all the... all the bad things in the world, they all come out of fear and insecure, and lack of self-esteem. Going back to the guys killing Alex Bertie in Minneapolis,

I saw those men, they were in fear. That's what I could see, you know, like very scared man. They were always scared. there's something in their life. And exactly, and the way they recruit the ICE people from what I heard, it's very particular. Like it's like they're gathering people with very, not only ideologically, but like there is something about these men that connect them in their fear, in their lack of self-esteem, in the way that they've been, you know, like in their minds, that they've been relegated. their entire lives.

I could see this when Bolsonaro got elected, all his secretaries and ministers, there were a bunch of people that no one really never cared about. It was like people there were like a lot of like people with so much resentment in their hearts and now this is my moment. Now it's my moment. Now it's totally.

Well, I would argue the same is true of the Trump administration. It's like the cabinet of broken toys. It's people who have faced rejection, who feel less than, and who've been given some power and are going to use that to, you know, put the boot on other people's necks. I think it's also why ICE wears masks. It's for their own, it's like they're also, they know that part of their impunity is because they're hidden.

But if they actually had to face the music of what they're doing, the depravity of it, like they're, they're terrified of what they're doing. That says a lot, exactly. The masks are a huge part of this. The mess says a lot, you know, why you're not showing your face? I got to ask you about this because I was really struck by this quote. When you, after Narcos, a series I absolutely loved so much. Again, it's like, I know every journalist does this in these interviews with you,

so I'm trying my best not to be fawning. But anyway, you said you turned down a lot of interviews after Narcos because you didn't want to be like the Latin bad guy. And in an interview you said, I want to play a character who speaks. the way I speak because I represent a big portion of this country, people who came here, speak with accents and are important for what we know as the United States, which is chef's kiss, no notes. But like, was that a political, like, how, how much of a political, that feels like a really political statement in this. Yeah, it's for sure a political statement.

You know, I want, I don't want to play, I don't want to do anything that would be, you know, that would represent my people in a way that would be a stereotype or with the image. Representation matters a lot. You know, I think that it's great to see, you know, to have kids back in Brazil looking at the kind of characters that I want to play or that, you know, one thing that I was very like, I love to see Diego Luna. in the Star Wars. I know.

He's so good. That's so important. Like a Mexican little boy there in Mexico or like the Mexican community is the people that speak Spanish here in this country go like, oh my God, there's this dude speaking with that accent and it's in the Star Wars world? I belong to that too. I think this is so important, you know, for kids, for the new generations. And yeah, it's for sure a political statement.

Pedro Pascal needs to take that Mandalorian mask off. I'm just kidding. He's great. Pots of America is brought to by Bombas. Whether you've been able to stick to your resolutions this year, there's one goal that should remain at the top of your list. Get comfy.

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They're super comfortable. They're like the no-show ones, but they're really cushy still. I like that. Do they wick some moisture as well? They wick, they wick their asses off. So important. They're great. For every item you purchase, an essential clothing item

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incredibly special and I'm eternally grateful. Thank you, Canada, for your continued support. It's a huge honor to represent our country. Keep cheering. Let's go Canada. Access Storage, official storage partner of Team Canada. Let me ask you, because I feel like on your CV, it says that you at one point worked as a journalist. Is that right? I graduated as a journalist. That's why I also, why I care so much about journalism. And I, and I, I'm so concerned about the state of journalism. Is that why you took the less glamorous path of a Hollywood superstar? It was just like it was too much pressure being a journalist?

No, I think that I wouldn't, that that wasn't my thing. I don't think I would be a very good journalist. Why? I think it requires a lot of, I have lots of interest in other people. and I want to know about it. But there is a thing that a journalist has to be very, you know, invasive sometimes. Like me saying why? Not you.

No, but, you know, like, you have to be relaxed. Yes, you do. You know, you have to like keep receiving a no and going back there and knocking at their door and trying. And I don't think I had that kind of skills. And also, too, when I worked as a journalist, I was, I had a very room. romantic idea that I wanted to be like, oh, the president's man kind of thing and do something that. And the kind of thing that I was doing when I started as a journalist was very like. What were you doing? Do you remember? I remember that I covered police. I had to go to the police

station and know how many people died. That's what Woodward and Bernstein were doing. They were like weekend beat reporters. It was very like, and also I did some cultural things too. And I don't know, man. I think that that's acting is more... Well, you're nominated for an Academy Award. Obviously, you chose the right path. My friends from the city where I'm from, from Salvador, most of them are my... I met my wife in college.

I stood in journalists. Most of my friends are journalists. And I'm very concerned of the state of journalism as a business and as an idea. It's the Washington Post. is very, it was a very sad thing to see, you know, like, I was like, Jeff Bezos has 40 million to put in that documentary and he couldn't, you know, he had to fire all these people like from, from the Washington Post. The Washington Post is a very, very important institution for American democracy. Yeah. You know, again, talking about all the presidents, man, you know,

like it's a it's so those that those kind of things really this this concerns me a lot when you talk about Watergate and I'm reminded of the 1970s in America which was like an incredible period of cinema I think in large part because it was a response to Vietnam and Watergate and the corruption of institutions do you feel optimistic that we're going to I mean and your movie is obviously time you know you did it in 24 And we've obviously been talking about autocracy and dictatorships a lot in the Western world. Are you optimistic that Hollywood can react in the way that it did like it did in the 70s and sort of be fertile again? Or do you feel like the system is fucked beyond repair?

I'm very bad with this sort of, you know, predictions. I never know what's going to happen. And I don't know how the impact of technology is going to be. have in what we do. I can see that the AI thing is, you know, is moving so fast. There's AI actors already, you know, like, I don't know. You know, I don't know the grip of this technology. The film, the Secret Agent, if you noticed, it had a very huge,

Kleber Mendoza, Fitted, the director of this film. He loves American films, as I do, from the 70s. Yeah, and it's very influenced by that. Very clearly, even with the way he shoots with the panamorphic lenses and the zooms and the political aspects of three days of Conder. And all those films from Peck and Pa, from, you know, the Palma and the... Peck and Paa. All these... Pacula. This is a great era of for films in the world.

And the clothes are so fucking awesome, let's just say. Yeah, the clothes are great. I hope so. Listen, I hope... Are you. kidding? You look amazing. The wardrobes. The goals are great, but to your question, I hope, I hope so, I think, I really liked one battle after another.

I thought that it was a great film, you know, about a revolution in the future. And also, like, again, like a film that was, they shot it, I don't know when they shot that, but, you know, and then all these, a film that starts with lots of Latinos in the beginning, you know, in a, in the prison and the revolutionaries freeing them.

Yeah, I think we'll, I think it's, it's, it's, we'll, filmmakers and artists will keep doing our thing, you know, like it's like despite of economical powers and Hollywood and and the grip that, that the, that money has on the studios and, and, and the technology thing. And I think we'll keep doing our thing. It's just, it's just what we do. Well, you, you, you said something really beautiful at the beginning of the which I want to get back to before we close it out, which is, you know, generational trauma can be

passed down, but so can, I'm getting it wrong already, is it generational hope? I mean, I think values, yeah. Values. You said generational trauma can be passed down, but so can generational values. And I think, honestly, one of the ways you remind people, we remind ourselves of who we are and in all of our complexities is through art, right? Like, it's like you, this, this film, is a reminder of what happened in Brazil, but it's a way for Brazil to also reconcile her past, or his past, whatever, and it's holding a mirror back up to ourselves. But that's also how we, it's a statement of values and priorities that you make art like that, right? That one battle after another and the secret agent are both going to be Best Picture nominees is a value statement

about what matters and what resonates in our culture. And that's really hopeful. So, I think so, too. And I think that this is so, it's been so important, you know, because the far right in Brazil, they were very efficient in transforming artists, of course, into the enemies of the people. There's a big discussion in Brazil about if the government should fund culture or not. Of course, the far right says it, no, they shouldn't do that. And they said that all these artists, they are, you know, they're using,

the money to that we should build a school or a hospital and we're doing a film. It's a bullshit. That's a false statement. That's a false choice. It's the false. But people, it's crazy because people see that and people go, yeah, I prefer a school than a fucking film, you know. And this is being a battle, a battle after another that we are fighting in Brazil against

this kind of thing because no kind of. country, I grew up watching American films, right? So that for me were international films that I saw with subtitles. But my understanding of what the U.S. is comes from the films that I saw. Yeah. You know, every time I think about Christmas, although in Brazil it's summer, I think about snow because of the American Christmas films. So and that's, and that's, and that was.

something that was important for me to read your country, to have to have empathy for, for, for these people, to admire things about this culture, to, you know, and to see things that I didn't like as well and to go like, oh, that's not cool. And to, to, to form an idea of other countries. But I guess it's even more important for an American, for Americans that throughout history, like to be able to see themselves to go like, oh, so this is who we are. Exactly. We are, this is, and great things. And that's the shaping of a culture.

No country develops without that. So the false dichotomy of like hospitals or films, it's stupid because we need, we need films, we need books, we need to see ourselves in our, in our, I love what's going on in Brazil right now. The way people are embracing this film, even with the polarization and seeing, like, this film represents us. You know, this is Brazil. This is a part of Brazil. It's a part of Brazilian history. So, yeah, I think, I think this is, this is indeed very, very important. Yeah, it's like, it's like why, you know, the videos of Alex Pready and Renee Nicole Good are really important. But then it's also, it's also important to see Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl. And it's also

important. You know, it's all of a piece. It's all America. And the only truth, the, the truth is not distilled into just one image, but many images, right? So, can I ask you, like, do you know what you're going to say if you win? I really don't expect. Are you going to say ice out? I'm kidding. I have no idea. I think that we got, I'm so happy that we, honestly, like, no bullshit. We got so far. It's crazy. You know, This Brazilian film had four nominations to the Academy Awards. We won awards in Cannes. We won awards in the Golden Globes.

It's great. I think that we are where we didn't really dream to be when we were doing this movie. So, yeah, as a, you know, I don't think, I don't have expectations like John McQueen an award this time. really. You've given more thought to what happens if ICE detains you than if you actually win the Academy Award. That I should be definitely thinking about it. Why isn't he here?

Oh, he's detained. Oh, my God. Well, that would be amazing for the cause. Let's just be clear. Now, I could have a chance. Now, thanks to this podcast, we've put a target on your back. Not the intention at all. And we know you would get out fast.

That would generate lots of publicity for sure. Well, listen, I hope that you win it, and there's no ICE agents anywhere near. It's an extraordinary film. You're an extraordinary. It's so reassuring to have artists who are also politically engaged and just so fucking awake. It's awesome. It's great to have you on a program like this, and it means a lot, both, I think, for us here, crooked, but also for our audience. And it's just great to see a handshake between politics and art that's so effort.

less and so real. I think that they walk together. I don't see art. I think that they're really entangled. Our arts and politics is sort of like the same, you know. I think that's how I see it. Listen, I wanted to be an actor, but I became a journalist. You wanted to be a journalist. You wanted to be a journalist, became an actor. I think we ended up in our right lanes. And we're both Wagner. And we both. We needed a Wagner in journalism and one in one. There's a lot in common here, Alex. I just were, we're siblings from indifferent, mother. I don't know, something like that. It is a true pleasure, Wagner. Thank you for spending some time with me today. You're the best. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to Wagner Mora for being

such a sport about all of this. I hope this doesn't dim your prospects getting a Pixar movie. But keep making these movies and everybody, please keep supporting artists who can have conversations like this in the middle of an Academy Award season by going to see The Secret Agent, which is streaming now or by going back into the vaults and checking out season one of Narcos where he is totally awesome. Thank you to Wagner for doing this and thank you guys all for listening. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Cricket. Pod Save America is a Cricket Media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin.

Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reid Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seiglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroate is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant.

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