Pod Save America - 1125: Will Trump Bomb State of the Union/Iran?

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

The State of the Union has arrived. Will war with Iran come with it? Jon, Tommy, and Lovett react to reports that Trump is considering launching air strikes against Iran in the coming days and then jump into the rest of the news, including the President's decision to impose a new fifteen percent global tariff—after the Supreme Court ruled his existing ones were illegal—Kash Patel's taxpayer-funded trip to party with the U.S. men's hockey team, and the various ways Congressional Democrats are planning to respond to tonight's State of the Union address. Then, Lovett chats with MS NOW's Symone Sanders-Townsend and Eugene Daniels about the Democratic Party's 2028 frontrunners, the Crockett-Talarico Texas primary, and their new podcast, "MS NOW Presents: Clock It."For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

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Iran, which maybe he'll try making the case for during tonight's state of the union, which he promised. will be long. That's just a what a preview. We'll also talk about what to expect from the big speech and all the different

ways Democrats are planning to respond and pre-but, post-butt. Then our pales Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels of MS Now stop by to talk with Lovett

about their new podcast, Clockit, the upcoming Texas Senate primary and more. And a reminder, if you want, even more Pod Save America, more politics,

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There we go. Yeah. And once you get done Descartes'Garneyed to the bulwark, come over here. Cricket.com slash friends. Travel, uh, Cash Patel's travelog. That could be a show. Oh, yeah. We could do that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You have noise. Cash Patel's some reservations. Pam Bondy's things you should care about. That's good. That's good. There you go. Put it behind the paywall. I love that.

Now you can listen unless you subscribe. Cricket.com slash friends. All right. Let's get to the news. The president heads into his state of the union address on the verge of a war with Iran that very few Americans want, an equally unpopular tariff regime that has been struck down by the Supreme Court, and an approval rating that just hit January 6th lows in new polls from the Washington Post and CNN. So naturally, he's in a great headspace as he prepares for the biggest audience he'll get before the midterms. Here he is at a White House event on Monday. Polls are tough. You know, when you get a fake poll, I get them today. I saw one today that I'm at

40%. 40%. I'm not a 40%. I'm much higher than that. It just amazes me that there's not more support out there. It's just, we actually have a silent support. I think it's silent. I suffer for the country.

He suffers silently. Do you guys think he'll be able to deliver the State of the Union with that cross on his back the whole time? I hope so. Yeah, he is going into this thing. So he's going to be in the, So he's going to be in the room.

There's going to be all these Epstein people will get to it. He's going to have the Supreme Court in front of them. He's going to have these poll numbers in his head. He will have been told who he shouldn't be talking to. And it's going to take every, like he's going to be shaking with his desire to break the script and go after that. I think it's going to go all at Roberts in the Supreme Court. All the energy, all the anger, all of it. That's my feeling right now.

You don't think Susie Wiles will have the shock collar, like sort of am. stamped up. She would like to, but I could also imagine a scenario where Cash Patel comes out in full hockey pads, who shotguns of beer personally arrests a bunch of the Supreme Court justices and then frog marches them out. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, yeah, Cash Patel. I don't know if they make the, I guess you get the teen size. Yes, they have the, yeah, they have the, yeah, they have the, um, Washington Post had them at 60% disapproval. CNN has its approval at 36%, 26% with independence. That feels bad.

Hottest president in the world. Maris University, 57% of respondents said the state of the union is not very strong or not strong at all. I guess those are all fake. 32% says he has the right priorities in the CNN poll. 68% says he hasn't paid enough attention to the country's most important problems. He is crushing it. Let's go to war with Iran then. Everyone's in while he references the actual poll numbers and he has a sort of sad quality to him.

And I actually prefer when he just makes up the numbers. Me too. I feel like he wasn't getting any information that was real for at least the first year. I feel like some real information's been getting through to him. I don't know who's delivering it. He's slipping it there. Yeah, yeah. Because he seemed genuinely like, why isn't there more support?

I don't understand. We're doing amazing stuff. There was some thought that Trump might take questions at that event about the war. He's reportedly ready to launch against the United. It was so funny if you just took some cues. I mean, that's a good. We should talk about that later, but that is a good strategy. Maybe just turning into question time.

It would be better. Yeah, instead of just like interrupting him, just keep asking the question. Do it. Anyway. But yeah, but people thought that maybe he would take questions at that event he did in the White House on Monday. Maybe questions about the war. He's reportedly ready to launch against Iran. But the White House seems to believe that's none of our business.

The latest on potential military action, as of this recording Monday evening, is that the U.S. and Iranian negotiators are scheduled to meet in Geneva on Thursday for one last-ditch attempt at diplomacy. But Trump advisors are telling the times that the president is considering an initial strike against Iran in the coming days to pressure them into some kind of a deal and may go for the full regime change operation later in the year. You're going to want to save that for later. It's all very confusing, including these comments over the weekend from Trump's top diplomat, real estate buddy, Steve Whitkoff, about an Iranian nuclear program that the Trump administration previously had assured us was, quote, obliterated. You know, they say that it's all about their civil program, and yet they've been enriching well beyond the number that you need for civil nuclear. It's up to 60%.

They're probably a week away from having industrial grade bomb-making material. And that's really dangerous, so. What do you think, Tommy? Were they lying before? lying now or I guess you don't have to choose. They could be lying in both situations. So I actually reached out to a couple like genuine experts on Iran just to be like, what do you guys think he meant? And none of them were sure. They genuinely did not know. I think the most charitable reading is he might be saying that Iran is a week away from being able

to enrich their existing uranium stockpile to weapons grade. But that's supposedly that that material is supposed to be buried under a mountain with all the centrifuges, right, because of the last airstrike. So I don't know. Maybe Wiccoff doesn't know what he's saying. But it's super triggering because that framing that like they're a week away or two weeks away is what we heard from Netanyahu for decades, what we heard from Trump. The last time we bombed Iran. And then afterwards, as you guys recall, we were told the nuclear infrastructure was completely and totally obliterated. That's what he kept saying over and over again. He even fired intelligence analysts who said otherwise.

And now here we are, not even a year later, doing this all again. And I think Wittkoff's comments speak to this broader problem, which is why? Like, why is this urgent? Why are we doing this right now? Like, what is the thing? Right? And it's also, what is the goal? Is it pressure them into making a diplomatic deal? Is it adopting the Israeli position that a deal has to deal with the nukes, ballistic missiles, proxy groups like the Hezbollah and the Houthis? Is it retaliation for killing protesters? Remember, he said he was going to bomb them for that. Is it full on regime change? We have no fucking idea. And it's not clear that Trump knows or has it decided. We also don't know how Iran will retaliate. And so it just feels like we're about to go to war. But the reasons for it and the scope of it are not only not being debated, but they are secret from us. And that is very weird. I also feel like we should probably talk a little bit about more about the, you mentioned retaliation, potential retaliation here, because it does not seem like this is without great risks to American interests and American lives.

I said that in New York Times piece about how, like, Iran, I'm sure you guys have been talking about this, Tommy, but like how Iran may, you know, direct its proxies to, attack American interests in Europe, American troops. There could be energy disruptions, right, throughout the Middle East that could really shake our economy. I mean, this is not a cost-free, let's lob in a few missiles. Or if he is just going to lob in a few missiles, then it doesn't seem like that's going to do anything. Yeah. And just all the more sort of dangerous when the people in charge of telling you what the policy is are in some measure, you know, incomprehensible or incoherent. They have industrial grade nuclear facile material, like as opposed to the

farm to table stuff. Of course it's confusing to the experts. These people are in over their heads. Meanwhile, like, you see this, the stories about Trump having these sort of two phases in his mind, like a really alarming because he's amassing a, what is it, like a huge proportion of our military around Iran. Clearly, he wants to do something. I am sure behind the scenes they are telling members of Congress and others, like this is about creating pressure to get a deal. Well, we don't know what kind of deal they're trying to get. And then he says, actually, I may do a small war, a small set of strikes.

And the big one will be later, right? Because what is the, he took the lesson he took. Right. He took the lesson from the first strikes against Iran's nuclear facilities has a huge success for him politically and without the negative consequences that many feared. So he took that as a kind of win. So he imagines he could do that again, get all the plot it's, right? And like Trump is not a guy that like delays gratification.

He has put all of this military force in position. He's just going to withdraw. That that isn't the tough boy, Donnie, you know, the guy that's like so strong and so tough for America and for Israel that we've come to expect. So I just like the whole thing is set up for us to be at the very least doing some kind of a military strike against Iran with zero real debate in Congress and zero understanding of the strategy at all. It's shocking. And remember, last time Iran responded, they basically fired, what, like a dozen missiles at a base, they warned us in advance, they knew we'd shoot them down, they wanted to de-escalate

through that escalation. There's a lot of experts who now think Iran will decide that they need to raise the cost for the U.S. or else they're just going to get bombed over and over and over again every six, ten, whatever, 12 months. And so they could respond with a giant salvo of ballistic missiles. They could hit U.S. bases in the Gulf. They could hit energy infrastructure. Like, they could hit Saudi oil depot and send up prices.

They could hit Tel Aviv, the Israeli targets. Like, all it takes is one or two missiles to get through. And something really bad happens, and you're on this escalation ladder. And then also, I mean, they have like pretty advanced cyber capabilities. They could go after the U.S. electric grid or, you know, DHS meanwhile, is like getting rid of all of its cyber defense. So it's just like, look, maybe there's a scenario where these guys have been decimated. And they will not get a single missile off the ground because we are just so much. better than them, and that's what happened in Venezuela. But it's like a, it's a pretty big bet.

There was a line in the Times story that the, that the Ayatollah has instructed senior leaders to make sure the assassination attempts don't work. It's like, yeah, man. Smart move. Yeah, that's a good idea. Make sure they don't work for you. That's right. Not that we can ever know what's going on in Donald Trump's outled mind, but I genuinely don't have any idea why he's doing this. Because like, like Venezuela, sort of kooky, but you could kind of see like, okay, it was a Stephen Miller thing. It was a Rubio thing. He likes getting the oil, right? You think Greenland, even that, you know, it looks big on the map. He wants to take that. Yeah. Like, the Iran thing now at this moment, with this much firepower in the region is just baffling to me because it's like, I don't know, like Lindsay Graham's pushing him to do it, right? But like, who else is really Jones in for a war with Iran in his orbit? like a pig and Shiite. I think, I can imagine a couple arguments. One is another oil-based argument, right?

Suddenly the U.S. controls like all the energy in the world if we're controlling the Iranian oil infrastructure somehow and Venezuela and our own. It doesn't totally make sense, but sure. There's an argument that's like Trump no longer cares about politics. He just wants to be viewed as historic figure. And he's got Lindsey Graham in his year being like, sir, if you take up Maduro and the Supreme Leader, you are like, you know, the greatest president in history. and maybe he's listening to that.

Like pure appeal to vanity. Yeah. And like, look, there's a lot of long-term risks. We're doing that too. Like, we're genuinely low on munitions, especially like air interceptor missiles for the Patriot missile batteries, things like that. The Israelis are, too, after the 12-day war.

And so, like, the Chinese are sitting there watching this being like, yes, fucking unload the clip. Have at it, boys. Like, you know, we'll just sit here quietly and see what happens. It's nuts. But politically, it's crazy. Yeah, the only other part of it, to make sense of it is he wants to undo anything Obama did and do better than anything Obama did. And so he is applying pressure in order to get some

kind of a deal. Like the timing only makes sense, the aggressive timing in the context of trying to get some kind of a deal, whatever that would be. And he wants to go out there and say, Obama sold out the country. I got the real deal. I fixed it. And I did it. I stopped yet another war. Right. Like that to me is, I honestly, it's a hopeful direction. Yeah. Well, I do think that, you know, Venezuela, like, we know that it was a pretty close call for the special forces. Like, he has sort of danced through the raindrops with a lot of these military strikes. And my one would say he's done that his entire fucking life. Right, of course.

But it's like at some point, you know, Americans get killed in this. It's, uh, these things could go south really fast. No one was killed in the Venezuela operation, but a guy got shot in the leg, one of the helicopter pilots and then nearly went down. And that was in part because clearly the U.S., we know this from bleaks that we had someone on the inside that, you know, turned on Maduro. and set him up to get taken. I do think there is this sense that the post-Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts have been largely cost-free

and that we can just bomb stuff with drones or B2 bombers and call today. Like, you know, the Customs Sold Money operation in the first term, when Trump assassinated the then head of the IRGC, they responded with a ballistic missile barrage only by the grace of God was known killed. Like 100 service members got traumatic brain injuries

and that sort of ended the escalation. But if, you know, one guy dies there, it's up and up. Yep. So you mentioned the politics. here's the way a University of Maryland poll from a few weeks ago asked the question, do you favor or oppose the United States initiating an attack on Iran under the current circumstances? Oppose 49 percent, don't know 30 percent, and support gets 21 percent.

And yet the war powers resolution from Rokana and Thomas Massey, which would simply require Congress to authorize any kind of military action against Iran, as it is laid out in the Constitution and the War Powers Act itself, doesn't have the votes to pass, at least as of this moment. Why do you think that is? Well, look, the Venezuela resolution failed in the House 215 to 215. That was with Democratic unanimity. We've already lost Josh Gottheimer and Jared Moskowitz, who not only said their oppose it,

but put out a ridiculous statement claiming it was the Ayatollah Enabler Act or Protection Act, which is just like pretty insulting to your colleagues. and such a kind of glib minimization of the role of Congress in approving military force. But losing those means that even if you had basically every Democrat in favor of a war powers vote, you would still lose because Marjorie Taylor Green is now gone. And Thomas Massey is not very persuasive with this caucus. I think it's so embarrassing for any Democrat, really Republican too. I mean, I just don't expect as much from them.

to it's not to just say like yes i think we should uh let's debate it and i think congress should vote to give the president authorization to like just give up your own power before there's even a debate just to donald trump of all people like josh godheimer jared masquist you you trust don't trump that's that's that's who you're deciding to uh give your power um that the constitution has authorized you with a way to to donald trump because you trust him to do war the right way it's crazy they're not they're not proposing an actual vote to authorize the use of military force they're just standing in the way yes that's what i'm saying of having a vote in the excuses when you get further into that crazy statement this resolution would restrict the flexibility needed to respond to real and evolving

threats and risks signaling weakness at a dangerous moment that is such fucking also like george w bush era republican bullshit that was it that was that was a lot of the justification people used for voting in favor of the Iraq war authorization because they claimed it was merely to give George W. Bush leverage to prevent the war in the first place, which obviously is not what came to pass. Yeah, I just, I feel like the debate is even worse than 2003 somehow. Yeah. At least then there was a conversation about the underlying reason why we may or may not go to war, which is this false claim of WMDs.

That literally isn't happening. It's just like, hey, look, we've amassed a ton of military assets in the region and what's Trump going to decide. Like, here's some leaks about the menu of options before him. Is he going to just have an appetizer? Is he going to go with the full, like, you know, it's just a, it's like a fucking video game. It's crazy. And like, meanwhile, like there's like a real human cost here. Like the USS Gerald Ford has now, one of the aircraft carriers, they've had their deployment extended twice. So they've been out for eight months. They will possibly be out for 11 months. These are sailors with, you know, families, little kids,

wives, husbands. They can only have sporadic contact with their family for opsec reasons. They'll go into quote unquote ghost mode for weeks at a time where you just can't contact people. And also the fucking toilets are broken on the ship. I saw that. And like to fix them full, you have to dock. So there's 45 minute lines for a toilet on an aircraft carrier. Like imagine the nightmare for these guys. It's like right before the we record the pod.

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See website for details, restrictions, and important safety information. Actual price will depend on product and subscription plan. It's also yet another issue splitting MAGA world for various reasons. We just saw the debate play out during Tucker Carlson's recent interview with U.S. Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee, which produced this viral clip about Israel's role in the Middle East

that the administration has also been trying to walk back. Let's listen. I just read Genesis 15, as I have many times. And that land, I think it says, from the Nile to the Euphrates, which is, once again, basically the entire Middle East. So God gave that land to his people, the Jews, or he didn't. You're saying he did.

What does that mean? Does Israel have the right to that land because you're appealing to Genesis. You're saying that's the original deed. It would be fine if they took it all. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here today. What would be fine? Well, it's exactly what we're talking about today.

But here's what I don't think you're... You think it would be fine if the state of Israel took over all of Georgia. They don't want to take it over. They're not asking to take it over. That's true. I will say beyond those comments, Huckabee's case for war with Iran. It seemed to have quite a few holes in it. Well, Ben.

What did you guys make of that interview and the broader intramaga debate over around? First of all, Huckabee just does such a terrible job in this interview. It's really sort of hard to watch. Tucker just asked him hard questions, and it's just he can't defend the position. He just can't defend the position. He can't defend the civilian casualties in Gaza. He can't defend Israel's conduct of the war. And Tucker really makes a meal of it.

At the same time, Tucker is somebody who has had sort of a slavish conversation with Nick Fuentes. He's had Holocaust deniers on. And so, like, you see Tucker give Huckabee a really hard time. And he is a – Tucker is a very smart, like, very sophisticated interviewer. And it is, I think, notable that he turns it on in this conversation, but doesn't turn it on in some of those other interactions, right? And so it's hard. You watch this. like yeah I'm glad to see Huckabee face these tough questions in this sort of a very sort of tense

way but then you think this is sort of Tucker with an agenda of his own and Tucker actually starts. You watch at the beginning where he talks like like 20 minutes about the circumstances of the interview in a kind of vaguely conspiratorial way and the ways in which it was clear Huckabee really didn't want to have the debate and they wouldn't let them leave the airport. The whole thing was very strange. So I came away like kind of glad to see Huckabee put on the spot but then like a little bit uncomfortable with the kind of the fact that it had to come from Tucker Carlson of all places. Yeah, I mean, Tucker's got some questionable motives, I think it's fair to say.

Just in terms of like pure performance, like taking out the two individuals, I mean, it's a fascinating interview because Tucker comes in with a plan and he lays a trap, which is he knows, he wants to ask, why does Israel have a right to exist and do all countries have a right? This is a universal principle. And he knows that Huckabee will cite both international law and theology, right? He'll say that, as he said there, that it's a divine right that comes from Genesis 15. And Tucker is pushing on this because he knows that those two arguments are fundamentally irreconcilable. And it culminates in Huckapie saying, yes, a literal reading would say Israel should control the entire Middle East. And quote, it would be fine if they took it all, which is an absolutely crazy thing for him to say. And obviously, like it was not his intention, right.

But it led to this massive backlash. There were statements from Oman, Qatar, Pakistan, Turkey, the UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, OIC, the League of Arab States. It's like every country in the region. They don't think they like that. They were not thrilled. It simply would not be fine if they took it all. It would not be fine. It would be a real problem.

But they're not asking for it. It would be fine if they did. Yeah. But that's not what they want. That's not what they want. Yes. And it highlights actually like how much of an extremist Huckabee is on all the policy areas he oversees because he says he opposed a two state solution.

He supports Israel annexing the West Bank. He says there is no West Bank. There's only Judea and Samaria. He says there's no such thing as a Palestinian. And so like Tucker is being a troll. we question his motives. But there's also, like, I think from the countries that responded, again, a lot of reasons they lash out at Israel, some of its anti-Semitism, some of its bias. But some of it is genuine anger about Israel's territorial expansion. And that dates back to 1967 in the Six Day War. But also like settlement construction, the slow motion annexation of the West Bank, Israel has taken territory in Syria and Lebanon recently since the October 7th. So it was a riveting, between two pretty flawed people. Yeah, I also think it, you know, the situation with Iran sort of combines the anti-war strain

in the MAGEL World with the anti-Israeli, especially anti-Israeli government strain in the in Maga World too. And at one point, you know, Tucker goes in on, well, you know, Bibi Netanyahu has been to the White House seven times. He's like, what other foreign leader has had a meeting with Trump seven times in the last year? And where has the debate been with the American people over whether we launched another war? And you could see a lot of like the anti-war stuff that Tucker's doing. You could see like gain a lot of traction, not just with, I mean, because it is how most Americans feel about war, especially war with Iran, that no one has told us why we're waging or may wage.

He also does some, but with Republicans. He also does this dual loyalty stuff with Tucker and Huckabee. He does kind of a, he goes into sort of DNA and who has the right to the land. And then he does sort of America being sort of controlled by Israel and making decisions on behalf of Israel. And so, yeah, there is this, I would say like the alignment is between sort of anti-war America first types and some of the sort of the virulent anti-Semitism, anti-Israel. Oh, that's the other thing he does. He actually apologized for it, but he made reference to the president of Israel, Herzog, being in the Epstein files. And Hurtzach, like, sent up a long letter basically saying, like, this is false.

and like a complete fabrication. And Tucker clearly, I guess, in a way that sounds like someone who's worried about defamation, kind of came out and said, I didn't know anything beyond what I read. I don't have any reason to believe it. If you defames, if you malign somebody, you should correct it. So he corrects it. But clearly, like, he is swimming in the kind of, like, conspiratorial waters. He goes off on the Epstein files too.

And Huckabby's like, well, I'm the ambassador to Israel, so I don't, you know. And he's like, you haven't read the Epstein files? He's like, you don't know what's going on in the Epstein files? You're trying to tell me. It's so funny. Like, Tucker really does the. the, I'm so confused. Yes.

I'm not mad. I'm just confused. He's so, well, yes, I don't understand. I don't understand. This sort of like,

babe in the woods thing. Yes. The interview starts quite hot. It's, um, yes. It's Jonathan Pollard, who is a guy who spied on the U.S.

on behalf of Israel who Huckabee met with for some reason at the embassy. Then I think it's into Epstein or then it goes into like some Israeli official who like is accused of blessing kids. Like, it's like, it's just kind of weird stuff. But on the, on the kind of intramaga,

Iran split. Like, there are some genuine Iran split. Some of, it is very hard to de-duplicate at times the anti-Israel, anti-Semitism from the anti-war stuff, right? And that is a troubling piece of this. I do think I would divide it into like elite opinion and voter opinion on the elites. I still think when you're talking about electeds and media types, the hawkish traditional neocons are still like the majority. It's like the Wall Street Journal editorial page, Lindsay Graham. Like those are the people I think in Trump's ear the most. Although Tucker, I think was the Murdoch Empire. Yeah, Tucker was at the White House today, right? Wasn't there a tweet about that? But unlike Iraq in 2003, you now have this far right faction of people like Tucker or Nick Fuentes, similar like Han-Urath. Kandis. And then some

folks who are very hardcore anti-war. And then there's similar folks in I think like the podcaster Manosphere ecosystem who are more just kind of like, why are we doing this? Right. And then you have the people in the traditional kind of more maga suck-suck-upy space who are just like Trump hasn't made the case yet. They don't, they're like where we are right now. It's just like, why? Why does he you want us to do that. And then there's voters who are like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, I care about tariffs. I care about inflation or whatever. And I think, um, ultimately, some of these arguments are a good faith, like, hey, Iraq was bad. Why are we doing this again? Shouldn't we spend money elsewhere? Some of it's kind of weird. I think ultimately if Trump does like

another, what, one or two day bombing raid like you did last time, like they just won't care and they'll move on. That's what he's counting on too. Yeah. But if it's protracted, like it's a whole different story, especially if, you know, the Iranians, like, blow something up and the straight-door moves and oil prices go through the roof and then there's real economic fallout. Yeah, well, the one thing about wars, you can always predict what's going to happen. Yeah, and they end fast. Now, I know everyone's accusing Trump of not focusing enough on the struggles of everyday Americans, but that's clearly not true. He's passionate about making them worse by raising taxes again. After the Supreme Court declared his tariffs illegal on Friday in a six-three decision, Trump almost immediately announced a new 10% tariff on all foreign goods, which he then quote.

quickly raised to 15% on Saturday. Outbid himself. The president has been bitching about the court since Friday. This morning, he posted that from now on he'll be spelling Supreme Court with lowercase letters based on a complete lack of respect. Got him. Got him. Me too. I'm going to be doing the same thing.

Because he had been reading a lot of E. Cummings. I also have a lack of respect for the Supreme Court. So I'm going to give him the lowercase letter treatment. I love those. The news over the last like a couple of days, it's like in a historic blow to Trump's agenda. The Supreme Court has removed his tariffs. The tariffs are back. Trump officials are also out there expressing confidence that they'll be able to use other authorities to keep most of the tariff rates where they were before the Supreme Court

decision. And they won't be taking any action to refund the illegal taxes we've all been paying since Liberation Day. According to Politico, this commitment to fighting for tax hikes in an election year has Democrats, quote, frothing at the mouth. For starters, Senate Democrats released a refund proposal on Monday. Governor J.B. Pritzker trolled the administration by sending a letter publicly demanding a refund check for every Illinois family. Newsom said pretty much the same thing on CNN over the weekend. Let's play a clip. He needs to return that money. He needs to refund that money with interest. He can do that in a nanosecond. The problem is for families, it's been about $1,1 a year. That's a different requirement that I think he has to pay the American

people back. I saw Bessent out there, almost gleeful. he was gleeful that no we won't be doing it this is dumb and dumber trump and best it what is he doing this in a gusetub climped behind him yeah was that the kiss back i could tell that was oh i get he was in nashville so he was somewhere in nashville for his book event okay i only know that because i think dana bash said i talked to him in nashville got i assume that that's the only was weird is postmodernism reach nashville okay uh i love saying he could do that in a nanosecone nanosec. It's very fast. It's very fast. They're all up in each other.

It's like with interest. J.B. Pritzker says, refund. I'm saying refund with interest. So we've talked about the Supreme Court decision a bunch from Friday over the weekend. Everyone should check out our YouTube for that. But what do you guys make of Trump doubling down? And are your mouths as frothy as other Democrats? I love the refund proposal. I think we should just be hammering the refund proposal. Everybody's entitled to $1,700. Where's my $1,700? Get me my $1,700.

I think that that is great. The other part of this is the leverage Trump clearly is afraid he's losing because of this ruling because he's posting these unhinged things about how I have licensed to destroy other countries, be careful what you wish for. And so he's sort of like, I think, worried about what this will mean for his sort of effort to kind of continuously have news cycle after news cycle about how he's sort of pummeling our trading partners around the world, which he views this good for him. I don't know.

Yes, I think we should be hammering this all the time. He's fighting to keep taxes high and costs high. for Americans, and by the way, he's keeping your money. Like, I feels like a no-brainer to me. Yeah, I'm frothing. I'm a walking bubble bath over here. I'm a cappuccino. This just occurred to me, though.

I was going to go more of the rabies. Rabies, your rabid record. So I feel like, you know, at one point I was worried that he would give everyone like a tariff stipend. Me too? Right? Like a terror stimulus. Don't tell it.

Now, if we, are we not worried that that would, because this just occurred to me. Like, what if he did write everyone a $1,700 check, as J.B. Pritzker said, would framing it as a refund, I guess, defang the political values at the hope? Or the hope is that he would just never do it because you feel like it would be under duress? I know, I didn't think about that. And then I heard Jesse Waters be like, Democrats have stepped into a trap. Now he's going to do a refund right before the election. But I was like, I mean, that would be the smart political thing to do.

But it doesn't seem like, first of all, I mean, he would have to just do it illegally like he does everything else because it would never pass Congress because they don't want to. This is, they keep floating this in Congress and Republicans keep knocking it down, Thune, all of them. They're just like, no, we're not doing a refund check. That's because we have a deficit and everything's too expensive and blah, blah, blah, blah. So there's that. But they also don't have the money. I mean, I guess they could do it, but they feel like that's maybe giving up. Maybe that's, maybe I don't know.

Well, I think it's, I would because I think this is, I'm also frothing. I think this is this is incredible that they, that he is just going forward with this. I think there's no, there's no downside for Democrats saying every American deserves a check from the illegally. This is basically money that. stolen from you from our country. We pay the tariffs. We're educating people about it as we go. Like, you're all paying these fucking tariffs. Look, we're educating you. But like, but it means, we're having the, we're like people. I agree. And you will get, and if you don't get the money, it's because Trump pocketed your money. He cut taxes for corporations. He's cut taxes for his wealthy

friends. He, but they can't afford to give you the $1,700 they took from you illegally. And then if he does it, great, Trump caves to Democrats and gives Americans money. I think we could make that argument or he doesn't and that's something we can keep running on and hammering through November. So I don't see the downside to pushing really hard for you know I agree on the messaging. I just wonder like what happens if we catch the car. It would be an interesting situation and like but before I mean before this ruling Fox News had a poll where they found 63% of registered voters disapproved of Trump's handling of the tariff. So basically he's just drawing more attention to a wildly unpopular policy to begin with. It looks weak, he looks angry. It looks chaotic like and voters are just like it's not going to solve the problem which is

voters are mad about costs and nothing he's doing is going to fix it. It's going to make it worse. No more illegal taxes to pay for the president's illegal wars. You just run around saying that for the next nine months and the illegal taxes. They used to just be taxes. Now they're illegal taxes. When is the last time either party has proudly run on raising taxes on like most middle class Americans, working class Americans, poor Americans? Like not tried to say we're not actually raising taxes, even though it might be true or this. No, just out there being like, no, no, no, we are fighting hard to keep this tax increase in effect. And by the way, we want to keep your taxes high. And what are we using it for? And what are we using it for? We're going to use it to buy a plane.

We're going to use to send cash Patel on a whirlwind vacation. Nome and Lewandowski are getting their, they're getting their jellies. They're joining, they're in the mile high club. And by the way, you know, a bunch of wars never approved by Congress, never voted on, never debated. Terrific. Oh, and we're, like, terrorizing various American communities that didn't vote for the president by rounding people up and throwing them in jail and sometimes killing them. Money's gone to that, too. Yeah, so. It doesn't seem popular. Doesn't seem popular, but we'll see. Positive America is brought to you by Rocket Money. I had a moment when I had realized I had to get my finances under control. It was when I was in what I called my lost year,

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which is flying the FBI director to Milan. so he could pound beers in the locker room with the U.S. men's hockey team. By now you've probably seen the leaked video of Cash Patel partying with the gold medalists, who he calls his good friends in a way that's totally believable. I'm sure they're buddies. You may also have seen the vigorous denials from Patel's spokesperson that the point of Patel's trip was to go to the Olympics. He obviously had mission-critical official FBI meetings

that just happened to be in Milan at the exact same time as the gold medal game, which unfortunately had to take the FBI director away from lesser duties like keeping Americans safe or figuring out how another guy with a gun got past the security perimeter at Mar-a-Lago. So Tommy and I ranted about this on YouTube on Monday. Love it. Did you happen to have any thoughts on this one? Yeah, two points I'd want to make. One, I think the most pathetic part of the whole thing is how often Cash Patel refers to the hockey team as the boys.

The boys. You recalls them The Boys. It's a very hockey thing to talk. They're his friends. They're hanging with The Boys. You're not one of the boys. You've never been. I think your whole life is a story of a man desperate to be one of the boys.

who will never be one of the boys. You look out of place in every, every, there's never been an outfit. Cash Patel is worn that doesn't look like it doesn't belong on him. He just always looks out of place and uncomfortable. They're a little too big, too small, too stiff, whatever it is. So the embarrassing thing of calling, of desperately trying to hang with the boys was interesting.

And the other is a lot of pressing work in the Dolomites. A lot of important investigations going on in the mountainous, A region of the Italian Alps for the FBI director. Look, we've all, look, everybody out there who's traveled for work knows that you can play some games and have a work trip that also is fun. We just went to Melbourne, Sydney, and Auckland. You know, we can, but we're not the FBI director. Brisbane and Brisbane, of course. We don't have quite the same remit as Cash Patil.

Of course. But the idea that, like, you think people can't see through this that you created some silly. cover meetings to justify calling it a work trip. It's a fucking joke. Want to expense it? It's like if you're in the administration, obviously everyone's jockeying to see who gets to go to the

Winter Olympics and there's always a delegation that they send and so you're like, oh, maybe Marco wants to go or maybe Jady Vance wants to go, who win or whatever else, but it's like on rare occasions meaning never is the FBI director, one of the people jockeying for that. Because they should have shit to do. And they're not, and they're not,

They're not part of this, like, we, we in our system. Diplomats, ambassadors. The head of state and the head of our government is the same function. And so a lot of them have to perform that function. And we can say it's silly and maybe not worth their time and not worth the money. But we send. Jamie Vance doesn't have anything better to do. Good for him for going.

Dignitaries. That guy doesn't have a job. And by the way, like, it is the Olympics. And they do represent America. And these people are our elected leaders. And I don't care for it. But that, you can make sense of that. That's fine.

Like, he is the head of the FBI. He is a law enforcement official. Right. now, but he's pounding beers in the fucking locker room. It's all so embarrassing. At least $75,000 on our tab, at least. It's way more. I guarantee it's more because the FBI director is required by law to fly on a Gulfstream G550 airplane. It's a private jet because they need security and secure comm. So the cost of just the gas alone has got to be like $510 grand an hour. It's an 18 hour trip. Then there's the staff. So I guess steal the oil from Venezuela. There's security. There's

accommodations. There's God knows what else. And so Patel, like he'll pay back a fraction of that. But someone in Congress just, I know we can't, but like it would be so great to subpoena the actual cost of this because I bet it's a lot of money. Great thing to promise for when we win the house. Yes. But it also misses the bigger opportunity cost of having this industrial strength douchebag as our FBI director. More industrial strength. Not doing serious stuff.

He's not qualified for the job. And he doesn't spend any of his time actually doing it. He's been to ultimate fighting events in Miami and Las Vegas. He went to a hockey game with Wayne Gretzky in New York. I'd love to do that. But he should have better shit to do. During the manhunt for Charlie Kirk's killer, Cash Mattel was tweeting out inaccurate information from some exclusive restaurant in New York City. He goes on trips to visit his girlfriend.

He went to see her sing the national anthem at a low rent wrestling match at Penn State. He took the FBI PJ to Scotland for a golf weekend with the boys. The boys again. He took it to a weekend vacation at a place called I shit you not the boondoggle ranch owned by a big Republican donor. Like, again, this guy is a fucking clown and he's making a mockery of everyone who voted for. Apparently there's a lot of outrage inside the FBI about this. I mean, that's why we've gotten all these leaks, the leaks of him sort of putting on his little coat and doing a performance of FBI director. So much of what he thinks the job is.

It's just sort of a performance. It's what's public facing. It's the headlines. It's the stories. Tweet out information mid-investigation that turns out not to be true. Loves to do that. You can do that anywhere, you know. We got him.

JK. Yeah. Who knows what Trump will do or like if he'll fire him? He doesn't fire anyone. He probably doesn't want to go through another confirmation process. I guarantee you he's seen these stories. I guarantee you he is pissed about it. We know there's been reporting that he was pissed about the travel and the PJ to visit the girlfriend.

This will get onto his radar screen in part because it's not just libs like us that are talking about this. It is right winger. There's this guy, Kyle Serafin, who's a former FBI guy who's on Info Wars all the time, who goes after Cash Patel all day every day. His tweet about this stuff had millions of views last night. Like this will get to Trump. This is the kind of thing that if you're Susie Wiles, the chief of staff and you're watching this cabinet

full of morons create bad headlines for you. This will piss you off and you will be like, rain it the fuck in. Not one of them has made Trump look better. Like the cabinet is doing such a bad job. Doug Bergameration.

Even if you're like, yeah, maybe Doug Berggrim. He's like on the better end of this. And on, you know, the fucking Labor Secretary. She's got shit going on. What is that story? With the husband. You know what?

RFK Jr. They're like, they're like, they're shaking up. They're shaking up HHS. they're taking away RFK staffers because they're like, hey, we're done with the anti-vaccine stuff. Let's just have them go talk about raw milk and being healthy or whatever. And by the way, like the White House had to

get RFK Jr. to reverse a decision about a Moderna vaccine that they weren't even going to allow. Lutniks on Epsilon Nome's fucking in the back of the plane. I tell you, Sean Duffy, former real war contestant. He's the best fucking one. He really is. He's doing fine. Remember the planes were crashing to the beginning? Yeah, the planes were touching.

That was a huge problem. In the sky. The planes are touching. They were going fast and touching. They were touching. They were touching. They were touching. They're not supposed to touch.

They don't want to do that. But he can't. It's not his fault. They still use floppy discs. Scott Bessens out there like fucking richy rich. Yeah. He's just so mean to him. You know, farm and soybeans.

He says fucking drunk blowing up boats. It just, really? He's just posting photos of himself benching. Benching. The benching, the benching photo. Was it they claimed it was like 315 pounds or something like that? No. That seems like a lot.

It's a solid max. And what is benching, what is that proved, do you think? That you have male pectorals, big pecks with the other boys. You know what? He could strangle the mullahs with his bare hands. I'll tell you something. I'll tell you something. Men bench press for other men.

Men do Pilates for women. That's what I'll tell you. That's what I'll say. Okay. Sure. Anyway, where were we? All right, before we get to love its interview with Simone and Eugene, let's talk a little bit more about the state of the union.

You know, President, the expectation setting for him has been just on point telling us it's going to be very long, which is what America craves. Democrats are preparing to respond in all different kinds of ways, as we are wont to do. If you're looking for a more traditional reaction, you can tune in to watch Virginia Governor Abigail Spanberger give the official Democratic response. If you're in the market for something a bit more ideological, Congresswoman Summer Lee is giving the progressive response. If you want to watch what's going to make Megan Kelly angry, you can catch the Spanish language response from Senator Alex Padilla. I'm going to say all the above. There's a state of the union prebuttal from Congresswoman La Monica McIver and a post-speech rally on the National Mall called the People State of the Union. Some Democrats intend to skip the speech. Others have said they plan to go.

And still others have said they plan to defy Hakeem Jeffrey's instructions to avoid disrupting the speech. What do you think? Anything else we're missing? Anything else they should throw in here? The one thing I would just add is just that the guests that they're bringing is that Schumer and others are bringing victims or people that have been impacted by Epstein. I think that is an interesting way to respond to kind of put that in Trump space. He's already going to be there.

Well, yeah, right, for sure. But like, I think that at least is using the moment to kind of force Trump to confront something or at least the image will force Trump to confront something or not confront something, which I think is interesting. I would just say if I were a member of Congress and you told me I could patriotically skip the state of the union, I would be a, it would be a me-shaped hole in the side of that fucking capital. Oh, you mean for my country I can skip this fucking long speech? Okay, I'll do it for America. Yeah. What about you? Yeah, on the pre-buttal things like I, if, you know, if a so-too pre-buttled streamed on the mall, does it even make a sound? Like, I don't care. Like, the idea of like an official response was always kind of dumb. It never worked and never got covered. I think in this media age, it's even silly. And so it's like, it's fine that there's like 25 of them. Who cares? We're not, there's no coordinated message.

Everyone just out there doing their thing. I think I would skip two. Like, what's the upside for going? The upside for going. Or the upside for going is to, I mean, everything is a game for attention, right? All of these are going to compete for attention in a way that is probably most are not going to be successful. Because, like you said, you know, maybe people who still have the TV on catch the official response after the state of the union is done if they get up to go to the bathroom and they haven't shut this, you know, like, so there's

maybe some of that. But like the people who are going to tune into the people state of the union or to the pre-buttal or this or that, it's basically like your own audience, right? Like if you, if you tend to follow those people, then you're going to follow them on this maybe. So it's not like you're breaking through. And so the only other option is to try to create attention in some way at the state of the union. So if you're going to go and either disrupt the speech, you know, try to turn into question time, have a guest that somehow Trump notices or their media notices and ask questions about it and that becomes a little story. So it's just like the only case for going is to somehow create an attentional moment. Otherwise like why you why bother? I do think where we're at now,

and I talked about this bit with Eugene and Simone, but like the idea that we should that it, yes, it does seem disjointed, but that's fine, who cares? And really, yes, most people will be performing for their own audiences. But you take that many shots on goals. you will end up with something, hopefully that can get beyond the bubble and like some clips. Something that you can celebrate with cash. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, on the way, on the flight home, perhaps. But yeah, like, I just think you can get like some viral moments that come out of this. I don't know, but like that I think I don't know. Well, because like we, you know, Al Green stood up last time and you couldn't quite understand him. Like he was like he stood up and he was saying something and kind of found out later what it was. So you guys, did anyone remember that Al Green was escorted out last time until you read about it today? Because I didn't. I did not remember it until I was reminded of it today, for sure.

I remember it just now with my memory. I didn't research this part very much because I think it's fine. What was he yelling? You have no mandate to cut Social Security or something like that. It was something along those. Who's to know? Look, there is a huge incentive to be disruptive, get carried out in some way, make that all about the speech. And you could make an argument that I wouldn't really agree with that it's been.

beneficial kind of, I don't, I don't know, but I think people, who cares? They could all paint a different letter of release the files on their chests. You could all put a mask on. They could, um, non-COVID edition. She says ice. We're anti-mask, mask protests, not pro-mass mass protest. Just to be clear. It's also hard whenever, wherever a party is facing the president giving a speech.

It's like asymmetric warfare, right? Like the president's got a, he's got the microphone. The people in the chamber do not have the microphone. So they're all going to sound. You're always going to sound like you're yelling and you're interrupting. The president's going to be able to just like do what he wants there. Yeah. There's a little.

The other side of it, though, is this is a president uniquely disposed towards reacting in ways that rebound poorly for him. Right. Like he has the ability, like if you can interrupt him and get into some kind of a, if he gets mad, all of a sudden, he's sort of, he's, you know, he'll break restraints and he'll, he'll start saying all the crazy shit. Like he's on a, he's going into this thing on a hair trigger anyway. Well, that's it. I mean,

the other side of that is at, uh, you know, 35, 39% approval, he's going to ruin the speech himself. Exactly. Yeah.

Like he could give that speech and, and not a single Democrat could be heard from for the rest of the night. And people would still be like, that sucked. Yeah. If we were doing like, um, like a Super Bowl party squares kind of betting thing,

I think like the, the odds on thing to happen are that he denounces the Supreme Court justices in a way that maybe get some like scattered murmurs and booze, right? And like leads to some like civility freak out. There is another version of it where he uses his speech to announce that like, on my orders tonight, we have commenced the bombing of Iran

and like goes for the big dramatic thing. And I could see him doing that again for just because he like is a drama queen and like likes attention. But it would be the least popular thing you could possibly do with the biggest megaphone. You don't think that's not that was a stop in the affordability tour? He's gonna, he's gonna,

There's some line in there that's meant to assuage him. That's going to be something about like the shameful decision on tariffs. And it is shameful. It was very, you know, he's going to start talking. Like, he's just, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the fence around him is, is, is fragile when he's up there. If I had to bet, it would be, um, just lots of stories of, uh, dead Americans killed by immigrants, just hauling all that out again. Like, yeah, they like to do a lot of stories. They're previewing that today.

Very sympathetic Americans who are somehow, I mean, they're, I don't know to say they're good at that, but they are at least adept at trying to find those stories. I'm sure Stephen Miller is all over that. Those are going to be all the guests. They're going to have random fucking people who are helped by Trump's policies because you can't really find them in the polls anywhere. So they'll bring him to the State of the Union. He's already done the longest day of the Union history, right? I'm sure. It sounds like he wants to beat it.

And I think he's going to want to beat it. So it's going to be a long night. Fuck. It's going to be a long. Well, we'll be doing our, the crooked media official response. We will. Yeah. We'll be doing, we'll have a pot out about it after, and we're going to be on Jimmy Kimmel.

That's three of us and Dan. It can be late. It's going to be late night. Yeah, so anyway. When we come back, you'll hear a love at's interview with Simone Sanders-Tounson and Eugene Daniels about State of the Union and much more. This podcast is sponsored by strawberry.me. Let me ask you something. You think LeBron, Patrick Mahomes, or Serena got to the goat status by guessing?

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Strawberry.comme, because pros don't guess they get coached to win. Joining me today is MS now Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels, who are the host of the brand new podcast clock at. Simone Eugene, welcome back to the pod. Greetings. Thanks for having us. So, hi to you both. What are we clocking today? Well, there's a long list.

You want to talk about the BAFTAs and Bay and word. You want to talk about the disrespect. Tony Gonzalez. Can I? Okay. Or do you just want to go with the State of Union? I mean, we can go. Let's not forget to talk.

touch on the BAFTAs before we leave because I actually, you brought it up and I am interested in the topic of the BAFTAs. I saw a Stead Herndon, a journalist, was saying it feels like a test on some kind of woke exam. So, all right, but we got to let's focus on the news. State of the Union is tonight for our dear listeners. Trump says the speech will be very long. Are you excited about that? And what are you both going to be watching for? run it, Simone, run it, you kick it off.

Well, I am, I guess I'm excited about the length because Eugene and I will be watching the State of the Union on YouTube on MSNow, MS.com's YouTube channel, along with everybody else who wants to tune in with us. So if it's long, the longer we'll sit there and watch and have our commentary. What I am watching for is actually how many times the president veers off script. Okay, because obviously he is known to not stick to the teleprompter. his last address to Congress went, I think it was over about an hour and 39 minutes. That was the longest ever. Maybe he's trying to beat his own record. You know, he loves a fake trophy child.

So I'll be watching for how long he goes. And then the lies he tells about the economy. I don't have to caveat it. They're going to be lies. He's going to say everything is great. Meanwhile, it's like hunger games in the grocery store. I want to know how far he's going to go tonight. Eugene, what about you?

All of those things. But also, I think the Supreme Court, just struck down his tariffs. And they're going to be sitting sitting right in front of him, everybody, but probably Alito, who stopped going years ago. So how does he engage with them? Right. He, last time he shook their hands and thanked Justice Roberts, which was very awkward for everybody, how he's going to talk about the economy. Like, Simone says about the lies, but in his last joint address to Congress, what he said was basically telling people, like, give us some time. It's going to be painful. So, like, is that the message you?

want going into midterms? Is that what they're going to go with? Because that's what they've been going with so far. But I think how he interacts and talks about the tariffs, because it is the center point of how he thinks about the economy and his economic agenda. And so how he engages with them is really interesting to me. Yeah, it's worth noting that the reason Alito stopped going is because of a very mild comment about Citizens United by President Barack Obama. Did you write that? I don't think I bet. Are you the reason Alito no longer attends the state of the union? Man, but it's like Alito, if you keep talking like this, I, Samuel Alito will stop coming to your events.

It's like you're threatening us with a good time here. But it is, I am interested in what Trump is going to say directly to them. He's already in the past week said, he's said more vicious things about the Supreme Court than any president in living memory. Now on to, there's another group of people that'll be there. They're called Democrats. They plan to respond in a lot of different ways. Some are attending in what Hakeem Jeffries calls silent defiance. Democrats have also invited victims of Jeffrey Epstein to the state of the union as guests. Other Democrats will be boycotting and attending competing events. If I remember of Congress and I could skip because I'm a patriot, I probably would. But what do you think? Look, I have a piece up on MS. Now right now about this very thing. thing. I understand leadership's position. I want to note that the leadership of the Democratic Caucus, particularly in the House, Hakeem Jeffries has said, we're not going to Trump's house. Trump is coming to our house and you don't let somebody run you off your block, which is like, okay, I'm feeling the Brooklynness of it all. I get it. I get it. You know, I'm not mad

about that. And I don't think that leadership should be encouraging, like, you know, people to rush the podium, right? That's not leadership's position. But I don't think that the leadership of the Democratic caucus writ large, not just Jeffries. Like the entirety of the leadership and even the former leadership, okay, clock that, should tamp down the ability for protest or disruption or understanding the moment. I know that when Congressman Al Green stood up in the middle of Trump's last address to Congress, he was not, it was not taken well, frankly, by Democrats in Washington. He was censured.

There were members of his own Democratic caucus that voted to censure him. But you know who understood the moment and who appreciated what happened? The people outside of Washington, D.C., outside of the Beltway, that moment broke through. And that moment preceded many more inflection points of civil disobedience and people coming together in groups and protesting. And so I think, you know, never let a good crisis go to waste. Don't tamp down a good disruption is what I think should be happening. And if I was a member of Congress, I would not be attending. I would be on one of the live streams.

I would be coming and watching with Eugene and I on YouTube. Oh, yeah, that's, members of Congress, just for live stream, they'll skip the State of the Union to do the live stream. I support that. I support that. Yeah, Eugene, I think part of the challenge here is it's always hard to figure out how to compete with the State of the Union. It's a classic dilemma long before Trump. You have the national stage. You have the podium.

You have the pomp and circumstance. The responses are often, they often feel flat in comparison. Protests can, they can get attention. My problem, if I remember when Al Green stood up, it wasn't totally clear what he was protesting about. I think we had to find that out. Then we had to find that out later. So there's like, there are challenges in trying to kind of take the microphone from Trump. But what do you make of the decision to bring people connected to, affected by Jeffrey Epstein to the state of the union?

I think that's a great move, right? Like, I think it is something substantive that they have Democrats have been fighting for, making sure that there is a real release of the Epstein file, something that Republicans used to be leading on. They don't anymore. Shocker. But it is also like part of, when you're talking about the pompous circumstance of the state of the union and what do you do to counter that, this is one of those things, right? Because we're going to be, we as journalists are going to be trying to interview those women before. We're definitely going to interview them after. Now the White House and the administration have to figure out, Donald Trump have to figure out, how do we, we, we're going to interview those women before. We're

How do we, or if at all, engage with these women? Do we talk about Epstein? Do we say anything about the women in there? He's probably not, you guys, just to be very clear. He's going to say he's been exonerated. Correct. He's up and through them files all over the place. He's probably not going to say anything.

But it helps to create a dilemma. And I think when you are on the outside looking in as Democrats are, when it comes to power in D.C., trying to force people to make a move and getting them off the game is very interesting. Like, you know, Donald Trump watches a lot of TV. So it's very possible he has seen, you know, Jess Michaels, for example, before. So locking guys with her, what does that do? It could create something.

And if it doesn't, there's a substantive aspect of this where the DOJ has been holding back files. He redacted more than members of Congress are comfortable with. And so it gives them a lot to talk about. I will add just to, you know, folks not going. I was talking to someone this weekend, and they said that what they should do is be there and be silent. I don't know if that's helpful, but like all the Democrats be there and be silent and then talk about it after because you could appear looking disjointed doing all these different things. And this is one of the things the Hakeem Drafis was so worried about because now you have this, you know, this, I think it was like the we, the people, the state of the union rally that's happening with Chris Van Hollen at all. And then you have the people that are going to go there, the people that are just going to skip.

completely. So it's kind of all over the place. So it could appear to the American people as disjointed when they want a Democratic Party that feels more unified. Can I just say one other point about that? Because in talking to some folks in leadership, people out of leadership and some strategists, one of the things that they have all said is that, look, we are on offense here. Republicans are on defense. And so we don't want to do anything that will potentially knock us off our own game. And they said Donald Trump is going to lie and we want people to hear the lies, not talk about something else. It could be a distraction.

And I just think that that, like, the American people are smart. We can, Donald Trump lies every day. Sitting in the chamber silently while he lies about the economy and then hoping to get a cable news hit afterwards or going live on your Instagram, I just, I don't think that that meets the moment. Now, I don't think, I think that some people going and some people not, it will seem to spare it. I will also know there's a weather issue here in the northeastern part of it.

the United States, the DMV area. So some people might just not be there because the flight won't make it out. And has anyone let the District of Columbia know about the technology of snow plows? Or is that something that is still, are still looking. No, we're still trying to figure that one out. We're waiting until we're a state to be able to do that. Has seen the remnants of the last situation. And, you know, my street was quite clear today.

So kudos. Axios reported today that this hidden autopsy report. that the DNC has done, that one of the lessons, one of the findings is that Gaza and the administration's position on Israel and Gaza

cost Kamala Harris votes in 2024. What did you make of that news? And why is this better? Well, welcome, welcome. Did they need a freaking autopsy? Welcome. Is it better to get the information?

Why don't they just release the fucking report? Child. It's silly. This part is very silly. Let me tell you the tea. Do y'all want the tea? Yeah, sure. Yes, they do.

The tea is the report is not being released allegedly, according to people familiar that I have talked to. And I want to caveat with this. I have not seen the report myself, but I have heard all about it. It's not being released because they believe that it will be a distraction. And it's a distraction that is not wanted by folks on the House side, the Senate side, Democrats read large across the cut in terms of like the alphabet

committees, as I like to say, the D-T-T-T-C, the DNC, the D-NC, the DSCC. They don't want that out before the midterms. I think that we will see the autopsy, but we'll see the autopsy in like December of 2026.

But I, because I think more eyes have started to get on it, that's how some of these things are leaking out. One could argue you should have just ripped a Band-Aid off this summer and we were, last summer, like last fall,

frankly, and we wouldn't even be talking about it later. But that's how the ball bounces. I don't necessarily agree, but I'm just telling you, That's the T. It's still February of 2026, still eight months until the midterm elections. I just find it hard to believe that what's inside of this document is so controversial that it'll be felt in an election eight months from now. Especially when we're getting the outcome of it. We're getting the information.

I mean, the same reason why Democrats are like, Hakeem Jeffries is like either stay home or go and sit silently is the same reason why they're not releasing this autopsy. Democrats feel like they're on offense and they do not want unforced errors. and they feel like releasing this will be an unforced error. I think not releasing it is an unforced error. I think we probably all agree because you have, one, they promised to release it. So that's what's the most important is that when you're running, right, Ken Martin, who's now the chair of the DNC, said he was going to release it. Of course he would release it. Then they made a different decision.

So that just reiterates to voters within the Democratic Party that people who are elected, whether they are actually in office or where they are actually in office or where they're, that one of these affleback committees, they don't follow through with what they say they're going to do when they actually get the job. So that is one concern. Two is that we are going to find out what's in here, right? Like Holly Otterbine and Axios is not the only reporter sniffing around. We all are. And so she found this one. Someone else will find another thing. We'll find out, you know, race. We'll find out gender. We'll find out, you know, what was the ground game? What was the digital game? Like, all of it is going to come out. And so the ripping off the Band-Aid should have happened because at this point, it's just going to be like,

drip, drip, drip, drip, and then in October, maybe something huge happens, and now you're really embarrassed before voters go and vote in November. And so I think at the end of the day, the party may have made a misstep here. And there are a lot of people, especially the younger folks that work within the party apparatus who are frustrated with this that I've talked to, who are like, we should have just released it, we would have forgotten about it. Of course. All the things that Donald Trump is doing every day. Like, if we release it and then we would have bombed Iran and then everybody would have moved on, right? Like, it's like that that is the, that is how you have to think nowadays.

And I don't know why. I know they don't, they want to be on offense, but, you know, I played college sports. I know that's confusing for people, but I pay college football. You have to play offense and defense. You have to do both to win the game. Did you have a heated rivalry? I wish. I really wish.

I really wish. That's like my only regret. Because there were a couple moments where I feel like I could have, but I was too scared. Yeah. My biggest regret. Yeah, on the autopsy, it's like, first of all, I want to know what we got for buying that sphere. And then the other part of it is where we get for the sphere. It's a waste of money.

But then the other. But you can't be, you can't, you can't have, as people would say during that time, more money than God. Because that's what people in the campaign would say they had. And you're advertised on the spear. But organizers in Phoenix and Nevada, specifically Las Vegas, can't get money to do their GOTV outreach effort. there's a disconnect. And I just think, I agree with y'all. Ripped a Band-Aid off.

I mean, to be very clear, the voters in the streets that are going to decide who the next Democratic nominee is, they actually don't necessarily care much about the autopsy. I think we care about the autopsy, understandably so, for various reasons. And we're not going to stop caring about the autopsy. So release the tapes. Yeah, release. I would say, like, you know, release the Martin files.

But the, sorry. I don't know if that's. Can I just say I have heard that it is not Kim Martin himself that is independently saying I'm not releasing it. There are lots of people that don't want to release. But Kim Martin, I mean, he's the DNC chair. So he's the face of it. I understand why what I just said is terribly unfair in a variety of ways. But the other, it's also like it is being released.

We're going to get the information. Just you're not releasing it on your terms. You're putting it in the hands of feckless reporters. Sort of, you know, people like Eugene. People like Eugene trying to get their hands on. it who only want this. They don't give a fuck what happens. They want the scoop. Yeah, release the information to the people. This just feels so, so nasty. Like, what is this?

It's very sinister. It's me getting the tapes. I love how we made them tapes. They are. It is probably the papers. The papers. They are papers. Yeah. So Gavin Newsom. I want to cover him. Eugene has thoughts. I do have thoughts. He He had these comments over the weekend about his son not wanting him to run for president, but obviously he's running. He's sort of the frontrunner to be the front runner right now. He's been trying to kind of, I think people have been impressed by his kind of ability to kind of break through and get attention and going after Trump.

Eugene, what do you think? No, I think that's right. I think people are like, especially the online people. And this is where you have to live in, like, Twitter is not real life. But like the folks online who are watching him, they're excited about seeing someone fight back, right? That's what Democratic voters want. They want someone who's caught fighting. And that's something he's done.

He's done it in court. He's done it on TV. He's done it in this book. He's on this tour now. But I also think that when you're a politician, you've got to be careful about how you're talking about things, right? He was up there in Atlanta talking to the mayor, and he's doing his interview about his book. And he's trying to explain that he's just. just like one of the folks, right?

Yeah. I'm just like you. Yeah, I'm just like you. Like, I get what he's saying. And I think a lot of people understand what he's saying, but you're trying to refer precedent, like being like, I have a 960 SAT. I can't read just like you. And it's like, wait a damn second, sir.

We can read. Right? Like, so it's like, it's just, it's about being careful. It's important to note that he said it before. He said it in that, in the interview he did with Charlie Kirk on his podcast. But in that room that he was in with Andre Dickon. the mayor of Atlanta, okay, in that black room he was in,

it didn't land well, okay? Even the mayor, if you just watched the clip, the mayor didn't laugh at first. He was kind of like, ah, ha, ha, ah. Like, it didn't land well. And I just think it's those kind of things that we're going to see a lot more of from a lot of different people

because this is going to be 2020 on steroids. Everybody in their mama wants to be the Democratic nominee. There's a, there's sort of like, and the response to it's been blown up by kind of right-wing. Republicans and right wing accounts. And I don't know how to there needs to be some sort of a name for it, which is Republicans doing the kind of doing their impression, their kind of trolly impression of circa 2020 Democrats to try to kind of like troll Democrats because they're the ones that really care about racism. And then and then I saw I also saw Tim Scott post it in this sort of like sort of like how dare you kind of a way when. Like, he just had two weeks ago to say the monkey video was the most racist thing he's seen out of the White House, which means he's seen other racist things out of the White House. He didn't say this was the first racist.

This is the only racist. This is the most racist thing yet. Okay. So let's be very clear. This does not touch what you've seen come out of the White House. But they're going after him because they do see, I mean, just think about it. I just want to, I mean, you work for Obama. Do I even need to tell you this?

Like at this time prior to the 2008 election, people didn't think it was Barack Obama. They thought it was Secretary Clinton. They were like, she's the frontrunner. Da-da-da-da-da. There were other people that maybe also wanted to be president. Joe Biden was about to be on his second run for president, yet again. Like maybe that was his third, I can't recall. So there were lots of people, but no one would have said at this point in time prior to the 2008 election that Barack Obama was definitely going to be the Democratic nominee that he was the frontrunner.

And so they're attacking who they, quote, unquote, think is the frontrunner. But I will just tell people the things that are going to make the difference or who actually shakes out to the top in this Democratic primary when it finally gets underway. And to be clear, we're in the early, early, as love is said, we're in the early days. But post midterms, baby, we are kicking off. It's going to be the map. What is the map? How does the map shake out for the primary? Because the map is going to tell a lot, okay?

The map can take some people out or it can boy you some people till the end. And it's going to be the reliable black voters choose the Democratic nominee in this party. But you know what? Black voters do not make their decision in a vacuum. They want to know what some of the white voters are going to do. They want to know what some of the Latino voters are going to do. They might say, damn, these white voters, the Latino voters are this is what the black voters want. The map, though, helps color that.

The primaries help color that. How people stand up in the bright lights, how they fail on the debate stage. let's be clear Vice President Kamala Harris then Senator Harris she did very well on the Senate confirmations

in the judiciary hearings when she got on the debate stage you know it was a little bit of a different story in that 2020 primary so the things that we see out here in the wild don't always translate

when the primary gets underway so watch this space as Rachel Maddow was said what did you think of there's a story in Axios that South Carolina is enlisting Joe Biden to try to keep South Carolina early

in the process I'm not sure what that even means. I understand why. Yes, because I understand why they would ask him because, you know, he has no current dog in the fight. He just, he loves South Carolina. South Carolina kept him afloat. I mean, the map mattered for him. So I understand why.

I believe and know for sure he is not the only person that they have enlisted. I don't think South Carolina is losing its place in the in the top first five contests, I would say. But I highly doubt that they'll end up being first. I will say this. I think the idea Joe Biden is a good choice to help push South Carolina across the finish line. I get having that idea. Y'all some haters. No, I just think like the current setup of the Democratic Party is like that's not going to, that's not going to be the, that's not going to be the push to keep South Carolina. I think that obviously, and I imagine Mr. Clyburn is one of those folks that is at the top of that list who actually does have some. still pulling lots of respect within the Democratic Party and the Democratic Party apparatus, most importantly, to get that done. I think that people are still raw about, to say the least, about Simone's former boss.

Which one? Well, the first one, the old white man. Which one? The second old white man. Thank you. To be clear. And so I think the folks want, they desperately want that pool to still be there that Joe Biden had. I think he doesn't have.

There's still a lot of respect within the party. But I think like give it a, give it some time. I think the respect. I will just say this as a former DNC member. I think the respect within the actual party apparatus is what matters. It is the people within the party apparatus that are going to make the decision about the map. Given the recent events of the death of Reverend Jesse Jackson, the changes that Reverend Jackson pushed for to make sure. that black people had viable chances, frankly,

within the party to even become the nominee. Those kind of changes, the proportional representation, the map, those came out of 1988 Jesse Jackson Child. So if you think black people are about to let their cachet slip away within the Democratic Party apparatus, you got another thing coming. DEI might be out, but out everywhere else. At Target.

D.I might be out at Target, child. But what black and Latino and women and AAPI, Pacific Islander, and everybody that's not a straight white man want and need, that is very much so in inside the Democratic Party apparatus. Sometimes I do think, though, that, like, I agree how early things come have been important. But I remember from 2008 that once we got into the primary, it was less about the sequence and more about the kind of the makeup of the state's electorate. Like the momentum was less important than the fundamental qualities of what was happening in the state. Because we were bouncing back and forth. You know, Hillary was winning in the places she was expected to win. And that was happening deep into the process. To be clear, had Barack Obama not done well in Iowa, we would not be having this conversation.

So the demographics of the state did in fact matter. The sequencing of the states matter. I think both really are important. But then with Joe Biden, right, he will, he, you know, people are telling him to drop out, but he's saying wait for South Carolina. And he was right about that. So it was, you know, I think it's like. It's a absolutely, absolutely. And I was going to say it doesn't have a dog in the fight because the Christy Noam killed that dog. But so, oh, doesn't even make sense. I want to, I want to land on the back. I do want to ask about what's happening in Texas. Just last, last sort of serious question, which is we have this battle between Jasmine Crockett and James Tala Rico. You know, it seems to be about what it means to be electable.

in 2026 in Texas. And I'm curious what you make of the back and forth between the campaigns. The fight is less ideological in the Democratic Party now. And it is about do you fight and how you fight? And I think like those two people show you kind of the different ways in which folks are going to be doing that throughout the year, right, as we head through the primary season. I think that the, when certain people say electability, it is a dog whistle. And it's very clear what they mean, right? Like, we know, we all know what that actually means. We know what it meant when people said that about Barack Obama. We knew what, we know what it means when they said about Kamala Harris. We know what it means when they said about Jasmine Crockett. When, but the in,

Texas, and is very unclear how this is going to shake out. But if you look at both of them were in Lubbock, Texas, I think, over the weekend. And if you look at their crowds, the crowds are vastly different in the same city. And you have her crowd, which is super diverse, younger people, older people, lots of black and brown people. He is not so much. Now, Texas is a very diverse state. I don't know if that bodes well for him. Who knows? We'll see. But I do not think the Stephen Colbert of at all is going to change a lot of voters' minds. I don't think that there are a lot of Texas voters who are like, oh, he didn't get to do, his interview didn't get to air. on Stephen Colbert, so then I got to vote for him.

Like, I don't think that's how voters are thinking. And as a person who graduated high school in Texas, I don't think and I have a Texas tattoo. It's very crazy. It's really insane. It is shocking. We don't want to ask a follow-up question about the text. No. Don't do that.

Everything's bigger in Texas, they say. It's true. I do not want to address that comment. What I will say, what I will say is this. I think that at the end of the, I agree with what Eugene said about electability. Like basically, are they electable in Texas? We're asking, will white people vote for Jasmine Crockett, right? Will, will black voters vote for James Salarico? But the question of, will

white people vote for Jasmine Crockett? Will Latinos vote for Jasmine Crockett? Given some of the things that she has, in a general election, giving some of the things she has said about Latino and Hispanic voters literally in print and on national television. It's insane. That being said, um, the way you win a primary is still a ground game. Early vote in Texas is happening right now. If you talk to folks within the Texas Democratic Party, they will tell you they are encouraged by the numbers that they're seeing. Early vote is by Democrats as outpacing Republicans. There is energy in this race.

We don't know who those voters are, though. And I think that the people that don't like the electability conversation, that feel like it's a, they're trying to hang an album, they're trying to put a, I don't want to use that term, but they're trying to weigh Jasmine Crock it down and try to take her out of the race with the electability conversation, maybe who might not have really felt strongly about her initially, but like feel strongly about the fact they're trying to take her out. So like, now we're going to vote for her. Maybe there are enough of those voters. But I just, I just think the kind of campaign that has been run, she didn't run a traditional campaign. So if she is able to eke out in

this Democratic primary, it won't be because she ran a stellar campaign. I want to be really clear. It'll be because I believe that she had great day my D. She had a good message. And she was the kind of fighter that Democrats in Texas want to go into their general election. Not because the ground game is just so great. And that's okay to say because it's the truth. And it's also, I think, worth saying that Talrico has not been, I think, attacking Jasmine Crockett on the stump that he has been saying. No. He's been sort of, I think, above board, right?

You agree with that? I think he's been overly above board. Yes, agree. I agree. The former operative in me is like, I'm not saying you got to attack her. And I wouldn't have advised that of him. But, I mean, he has been practically out there saying, and to be clear, if she would. wins, I'm going to support her.

Even at his fundraisers, he's like, and I think you all should too. I'm going to pay her. Just shut up. Either way. It's good. Hold up. You want to win or not. Like, hold it.

Just shut up. And when they ask you on a debate stage about the racism, then you defend her. But Jesus Christ, win the race. But, you know, I think this overly nice, these niceties, the Democrats are still scarred from like that, you know, Democrats don't actually like infighting unless it's a presidential primary situation. But Democratic voters, they really don't like that. Like, they really just, they don't want people attacking people.

They just want to talk about. issues until they don't. So I think Talibico has done the right situation. But that's to get at the moderates you would need, the like kind of less partisans that you would need that the argument would be Crocett will have a tougher time with, right? Like that would be why he's sort of running it in this sort of positive way. I think that, but I also think it's what he believes, to be very clear. And I think it's what he thinks it will get him, is what he thinks will work for him. I think if you, I've asked Jasmine Crocker, we had on our show like two weeks ago and I asked her straight up like, you know, do you think white people will vote for you?

And Michael Steele asked as well, and she said that she has Republicans in her phone right now who have told her that if she wins, they will support her. So this idea that she can't win, she Republicans won't vote for her isn't right, which was also a tone shift for Jasmine Crockett, who started her election talking about we don't need the reds. We just need the reds. We just need all the blues. And I think as my colleague Michael Steele would say, the former RNC chairman, which is crazy because now Democrats are like, we need Michael to run the party. I'm like, Michael is the reason we are here. Y'all just, this man has branded well. Pay attention. Y'all need to clock that, okay? Y'all didn't read that bio. He said, you know what campaigns reveal? They reveal candidates go on a journey in a campaign. And what he said when he heard those comments from Congress from McCrocket,

he said she has obviously been on a journey in this campaign and has arrived at the place where she needs to be to try to win. Well, we have to leave. I promise people the BFTAs, but I don't. We're going to talk about the Bactas on our. You're talking on yours show. It's insane. We're talking about it on ours.

It's insane. I want to redo a Black History Month is what I damn want. Too much. It's too much. Every Black History Month, they try it in us, Eugene. Every Black History Month. And it's just 28 damn days. Can we just get 28 days?

He did not go to the mat to get Negro History Week and turned into Black History Month for us to talk about this disrespect and racism during Black History Month. Not to that. It's too bad. Eugene Daniels, Simone Sanders Townsend. What a joy. New podcast, Clockette.

They were doing a live stream during the state of the union, you know. Join us. Join them. That's our show for today. Thanks to Simone and Eugene for coming on. We'll be back in your feed tomorrow morning with a bonus episode reacting to the state of the union. Everybody hang in there. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts,

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