Pod Save America - “2022 is dead. Long live 2024”

Episode Date: November 15, 2022

Democrats keep the Senate, hold off a Red Wave in the House, and prepare for a productive lame duck session. The knives are out for Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy while Donald Trump gets ready to announce his 3rd presidential campaign. John Fetterman’s campaign advisers Rebecca Katz and Kipp Hebert stop by to tell us about their big win over Dr. Oz. And later, Jon, Jon and Tommy play a game to figure out which Republicans are still on the Trump Train. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. Tommy Vitor. On today's show, Democrats keep the Senate, hold off a red wave in the House, and look forward to a productive lame duck session. campaign. Then the people behind John Fetterman's campaign join us to talk about how they did it, and later, a new game that tests our knowledge about just how crowded the Trump train is right now. But first, we are now offering crooked coffee holiday boxes to make gift-giving easy. How about that? Each box is filled with full-size bags of delicious medium and dark roast coffee, plus a fun activity that isn't scrolling through Twitter. And if you buy them all, and they are great,

we'll stop doing this. I'm a dark roast person. Have you guys decided? I'm a medium roast person. You're a medium roast? Yeah. Tommy's like a sophisticated palate. Is it?

I want everything to taste like Diet Coke. Yeah, I do. I really like Diet Cokes. Every order from Crooked Coffee will support Vote safe america's every last vote fund that helps grassroots organizations get out the vote which we still need to do in georgia on december 6th uh you can pick from three different boxes for three types of people the extremely online box with witty magnetic poetry for your fridge the craft lovers box with

a learn to crochet kit inside and the home baker box with the insta famous apple cider donut kit from farmsteady that's so popular it's almost always out of stock i can't believe i have to read this so glad you have to read this everybody buy the boxes just buy the boxes you know the insta famous apple cider kit we're uh diversifying our revenue streams buy the boxes Our staff hates us. There's a limited quantity, so head to crooked.com slash coffee to shop before we sell out. Also, Crooked and Duolingo

just released a brand new limited series podcast together hosted by audio journalist Ahmed Ali Akbar. Radiolingo investigates all of the ways that language shapes our world and how the world shapes our language. Each episode explores a different way language plays a role in our life, from swearing to subtitles and everything in between. Listen today and subscribe to Radio Lingo wherever you get your podcasts.

New episodes drop every Tuesday. All right, let's get to the news. Democrats have retained control of the Senate after Arizona was called for Mark Kelly on Friday and Nevada was called for Catherine Cortez Masto on Saturday. Kelly's leading Blake Masters, 51 to 46 percent, not particularly close. And Cortez Masto has squeaked ahead of Adam Laxalt, 49 to 48 percent, just about 7,000 votes. Both states are still counting ballots, but almost finished. Democrats now have 50 Senate seats with a chance to win 51 if Senator Raphael Warnock defeats Herschel Walker in Georgia's December 6th runoff. Guys, how big of a deal is this? How much

of a surprise is it? And do you have any more thoughts on how it happened now that we've all had a few more days to dig through data and just swim through takes? Can you imagine if Blake Masters was one of the 100 people we send to Washington to be in the U.S. Senate? One of the many pieces of color from all of the great reporting over the last couple of days about the midterms was how the focus group for the first one of the first focus groups. Yeah. Blake Masters done by the Republicans. Yeah. Was one of the worst focus groups they've ever seen in their entire lives and he was getting the sort of crudite treatment where people were um uh recirculating old videos that he himself had

shot edited and released that just showed how weird he was one of them was him in a random field shooting a german pistol with a silencer on it it looked like the ending scene in seven it was very off-putting when you when you call the unabomber an underappreciated thinker and say that you want to privatize social security not the best it's a tough one it's a tough tough uh sending uh emails to his vegetable co-op telling him why democracy isn't so hot the guy's been a kook his whole fucking life just spindly spindly and fascist and also adam laxalt by the way because you know we've a lot of time on blake masters and oz and herschel walker and adam laxalt has just kind of gone under the radar but he's a terrible candidate yeah also like embrace the big lie election denier he wasn't as splashy wasn't as he wasn't as splashy in his

embrace of uh electionalism but dan was right there nonetheless he was the conroy of nevada no but john john ralston who's the the, the Dean of the Nevada press corps talked about how Black Salt was a terrible candidate as well. Just nobody saw him because they did let him out of his little candidate cage and media. And Ralston took some shit for being too Pollyanna-ish about Democrats by saying that he believed Masto would hold on and that Democrats would win two out of the three seats in contention. and actually won all three seats. All three seats. He was right about the governor's race too. Steve Sisolak, the Democratic governor of Nevada, is the only Democratic incumbent governor in the country that lost. You know, I was, I think like by constitution, when I see everybody in a state of despair,

it's my instinct to be like, all right, you're everybody chill out. Like there's, here's some things that we should be considering and not losing our heads. And I have the same thing when I see Democrats rejoicing and I see all this celebration thing, hold on a second. All right. Like we have, uh, we, we lose the house, which means we lose the ability to legislate in the same way. Uh, the Senate map in 2024 is pretty tough tough. Let's all not act as though all of our problems are solved. We have a lot of hard things ahead. But what I was thinking over the weekend was, imagine the three of us doing this pod right now with election deniers in charge of key election infrastructure in Wisconsin, in Arizona, in Nevada, in Pennsylvania, and us trying to come up with some godfors should, people should still try.

Yeah, America. Spare a thought for us. No, but I'm just, but like the fact that, no, I don't mean it because of us. I mean, first I'll take down this straw man over here. No, no, shut up. You shut the fuck up. Who shall think of the podcast? Shut the fuck up.

I wasn't saying thinking of us. I was thinking of all, like how, how bad a situation it would be in to try to make an argument for why we're going to still have this fight left in us. And actually we, we stopped all these fucking people. Yeah, it would have been harder. Here's the truth. You know, in 18 expectations get out of control. The blue wave was supposed to win us. The Senate didn't happen in 20. Joe Biden was ahead by 10 points in Wisconsin. It was close. This one, it was the red wave. It was close. The thing is we were a few thousand votes in a couple of States away from that. Of course, once again, super close. The thing is, we were a few thousand votes and a couple of states away from that. Of course. It was once again, super close. We are on a knife's edge at this country.

Thank you, Harry Reid. I know you can't hear me because you're dead. That was the joke that I was making on Twitter that people didn't necessarily get. Oh, now he's shadowboxing some menchies. I am. Unbelievable. There's nothing more annoying on social media

than when you make a joke and people don't get it and then they make fun of you. Anyway, but Harry Reid built a political machine in nevada that is so powerful that it exists years after his death it's really impressive yeah do you know so if warnock and lisa murkowski win uh because they have ranked choice voting in alaska so we're still waiting on the outcome there it'll be the first time in over 100 years that no incumbent senator running for reelection lost. Isn't that nuts? It is. And it does go to the larger, like, you know, there's Joe Biden's doing some kind of a victory lap, I think, around the dip room. He's in like Bali.

Oh, yeah. He's wearing silly shirts and yeah he's looking around he's talking uh but um you look at like the kind of the number of people that were dissatisfied with joe biden's job performance but still voting for the democrats and a lot of people went into that booth or looked at that piece of paper and were like, I'm in a really pissed off mood, but I cannot support these people. I just can't do it. I cannot bring myself to do it. When I think back to the wilderness focus groups, it's like they would complain for an hour about Joe Biden, Democrats, inflation, crime, all the stuff that the media is talking about, that everyone's mad at the media for having to talk about. And then at the end, I'd be like, so are you going to, but would you vote for Herschel Walker? Oh no, he's crazy.

And Sarah Longwell was just saying that in the New York Times. Same thing about Blake Masters. And at the end of the day, these the candidates that the Republicans ran. I mean, people are talking a lot about how it was democracy. It was democracy. But it was, you know, in the sense that they would embrace the big lie that made them too extreme, that they would want to criminalize all abortions that made them extreme. Sometimes it was just Blake Masters saying things like the Unabomber is an underappreciated thinker. That makes them extreme. It was a whole bunch of things that made them just completely unfit for public office. And I do think there was a kind of vicious circle in the rhetoric that they were using in their own information bubble around not just abortion, but around trans issues, around gay

issues that just didn't comport with people's reality, trying to scare people about what was happening in schools. It just didn't reflect the experiences people were having. And that also weren't on anywhere near the list of the top issues on people's minds. That I think is like whether someone's going to vote for or against someone based on some of these issues, we don't know. But I do think there are some ways in which someone will say something completely unhinged

and it's a signal to you. They're like, this person's out to lunch. I think if you look at what Democratic candidates who won tough competitive races did, they basically did four things. They went on offense on abortion and Republican extremism. They drew contrasts with their opponents on economic populism. You know, they said they didn't have a plan for inflation or their plan for inflation is

to cut taxes for rich people and gut health care. And we've been fighting for the middle class over the last year. This is what we've accomplished. They dealt with crime attacks by reiterating their support for law enforcement and gun control. And then they talked about their bipartisan credentials while pointing out that their Republican candidate was extreme. Like, and almost every single Democrat that won did all of those things in their ads and their speeches and how they made news. What kind of impact will a Democratic Senate have? I mean, if we can get 51 votes in the Senate,

then we will have the majority on committees, which means you can vote nominees out of committee and not have to take everything to the Senate, then we will have the majority on committees, which means you can vote nominees out of committee and not have to take everything to the floor, which will speed up the whole process of moving legislation. You could imagine scenarios where, I don't know, we'll see what happens in the House pretty close. You could see a scenario where you have a weak speaker. There are votes that are bipartisan. You have Republican House members who want to work with Democrats on discrete issues. The fact that Democrats control what happens on the senate floor will be a very big deal in some if we're trying to figure out how to get a a budget or some kind of must-pass

thing out of both chambers it means there will not be impeachment trials the the house can do whatever they want that the senate will not take up will not hold this hold the trial don't they have to hold the trial i think that they i think it won't make it easy they have to hold the trial? I think they... It won't make it easy, but they have to hold the trial. Can't they... They can do it in a kind of... They have to hold the trial, but it doesn't have to look like the trial.

The trial that Schumer would hold would look very different than what McConnell would. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah, but to Tommy's point, there are 87 judicial vacancies right now in the country.

There are 58 Biden nominees awaiting a hearing or a vote. So the judicial outcome is that's the biggest impact, especially if we end up not winning the House here. Then there's a question of like, if there's a Supreme Court opening, we could fill it. There's also been some question, you know, Sonia Sotomayor is 68 years old. She would be 74 in 2028 if we lose either the presidency or the Senate in 2024.

So possible retirement there. Sam Alito is 72. Clarence Thomas is 74. So Supreme Court thing could be in play over the next couple years. Clarence Thomas has been in our lives for a thousand years. I know, 74.

And he's still only, it's only 74. It feels like he's a thousand years. Also, I will say this. Ginny Thomas doesn't do anything halfway. You know, she was in that cult. Now she's like on full queue. he's possible like jenny thomas doesn't do anything halfway you know she was in that cult now she's like on full queue she's always like one charismatic scuba instructor out of four seasons away from putting clarence thomas's life at great personal risk like she

can be convinced to do skydiving spelunking bungee jumping like she is a persuadable voter on a number of key issues. So that's something to keep in mind. Play this out. Are you saying that there's like extreme sports or she's going to leave him for the Scoop Steve? No, no, I'm just, I'm saying that like, if a well-placed person

at a White Lotus-like resort for conservatives suggests, you know that thing where people jump like flying squirrels? Yeah, squirrel suits. I think that she could be persuaded to do that and maybe bring Clarence along. All I'm saying is Clarence may not be there if things go a certain way. Another point I'd like to make about why 50, two points about why 51 is better than 50. Again, there's going to be a very tough Senate map in 2024.

And also, they're all a thousand years old and we never get to the this a two-year term in the house and senate is like the oregon trail you don't end up with everybody at the end a lot of dysentery yeah people fall by the fucking wayside these are these people are a thousand years old patrick lay he falls down the stairs twice a week oh my god well he's not gonna stick around anyway i want to go back to your point about the 2020 format they're old the 2024 map is important god makes openings there is there is now almost zero chance the republicans can get a filipuster proof majority in 2024 which you might be thinking oh no that was there was a chance it

was yes there was we lost a couple of these. The map is brutal in 2024. So we will be defending Democratic incumbents in three Trump states, West Virginia, Montana, and Ohio, and then defending incumbents in purple Biden states, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Nevada. Our best pickup opportunities, our best possible flips in 2024 are Florida and Texas. You know what I'm saying? Those aren't very promising. Well, those are the only possibilities. That's why we're going to be all encouraging everybody to go knock on doors for Kirsten Sinema.

Listen. We'll get you there. 51 votes. Maybe Ruben Gallego. Maybe he'll be in the primary. Maybe she can get her to be some cabinet position. Yeah. she can get her to be uh some some some cabinet position yeah 51 takes it out of the takes the balance of power of the the capricious coal dust covered hands of joe manchin and or kirsten

cinemas which listen i think i'd rather slightly more liberal hands they both well the thing is it's like it's it's a double-edged sword right because the two of them have stuck together because neither one of them wanted to be the one to sink any kind of votes. But also, I think I still think that there's a they can make they could make 51 look a lot like 50 or they can they can decide they can split off on things. Also, if if, you know, Joe Manchin is facing an incredibly tough reelection in 2024 in West Virginia, if he decides he's going to like go be an independent or switch or something, then 51 helps with that. And also, I saw someone point out,

Kamala Harris doesn't have to be in D.C. anymore to cast tie-breaking votes so she can spend more time in other places. That's good. Campaigning in that road. Unbelievable. Also, I read, like, oh, all the things that will happen in the Senate if we have 51.

How about just, like, we have Raphael Warnock instead of Herschel Walker? We have, like, a brilliant, inspiring preacher instead of a fucking stone cold moron who like put a gun to his ex-wife's head. That's a bonus right there. Yeah, it just seems wrong for him to win. How do you think the fact that control of the Senate has already been decided should impact Warnock's strategy in this runoff that's happening on December 6th? I doubt it does. I mean, don't you assume that Warnock's people have been running

this race the whole time, assuming they had another month and that they're just going to kind of execute on that? I mean, look, if I were them, I'd take some cash. I would maybe buy a Mar-a-Lago membership and see if I could talk Trump into coming down to Georgia for a few stops. I mean, that's an opportunity. opportunity. I do think given that the stakes are not control of the Senate, it makes it more about character qualifications record. It makes it more about

which man do you want to represent you? And it makes it a much, much harder road for the Republicans. And I think that's the strategy that Warnock follows because his first ad for the runoff was all about character. And it said this whole thing

is about character. Who do you want? And I think it's easier to do that when Senate stakes aren't. It's just and for the runoff was all about character and it said this whole thing is about character who do you want and i think it's easier to do that when senate stakes it's just harder for the republicans to motivate people i think i mean i think you could get a lot of these voters out again to say own the libs keep them out of power vote herschel walker no one's turning out you gotta get in your car and drive again to vote just for this make a plan of it i did see that kemp is now going to campaign with walker and he didn't before probably because he was worried about his own election and like the senate leadership fund like they're going to lend their dad and some money so like they're they're all getting behind they're all going to try but um are their hearts going to be

which is why everyone should which is why we all need to sort of get involved and uh and and uh send money down there and help in whatever way we can, because we don't want Hershel Walker in the Senate and Raphael Warnock is one of the best senators we have. So one more fun thing before we move on to the House, the Republican infighting over losing the Senate has begun. Mitch McConnell's flunkies are blaming Rick Scott's flunkies. Rick Scott's flunkies are blaming Mitch McConnell's flunkies. And at least five Republican senators, including Scott, have called for a delay in leadership elections. What do you guys think?

Is Mitch in trouble? Here's what I want to say. And who are we rooting for? Here's what I want to say. Who are we rooting for? It's aliens versus predator. Whoever wins, we lose. I see the points that Rick Scott is making.

They're great points. I see what McConnell is saying about the Trump people. They're making great points. Honestly, some of the saying about the Trump people. They're making great points. Honestly, some of the points Trump's making, not so bad. The thing is, they're all responsible and they're all trying to make this about the decisions they made in the last year, because that's a place where they can find dissensus and maybe places where they can find some purchase to make an argument for why it's not their fault, it's someone else's fault. This is the culmination of years, of years of getting exactly what they fucking wanted. They wanted to overturn Dobbs.

They got fucking killed for it. They wanted all the enthusiasm and excitement that came from the Trump base. And then they got fucking punished for it. All of these people got exactly what they wanted, which is exactly what they deserve. And they have at it. Blame each other other down you're all full of shit that's how i feel about that i'm obviously rooting for rick scott here i am too of course he's because he's an idiot who is the medicare thief telegenic uh brilliant policy mind um just expert recruiting that guy is fuck we know what mitch mcconnell is capable of he's an obstructionist and he can raise a lot of lobbyist money I would love to see rick scott take the reins here. He's one of the most personally unappealing politically toned death

Personally damaged corrupt goons in that entire city. Yeah, go for it. Sure. I look let's not It's not like mitch mcconnell is is is like george clooney, right? Like he's not exactly personable orcconnell is is is like george clooney all right like he's not exactly personable or like a great straw man gunned down i said i know what he's doing do you want to twitter mentions you want to argue with yes i don't want anyone to tell me uh whatever happened to when they go low we go high this is a republican in fighting all i'm saying is i think some look minority leaders often look like geniuses it's not it's easier to obstruct when you're in the minority in the senate uh he has benefited from a lot of decisions a lot of other

people have made i'm not saying mitch mcconnell isn't a smarter and better politician than rick scott but i'm like a little bit done with the like mitch mcconnell strategic genius the washington post has like a an extremely long story that is very good about everything that happened in the last year with republicans or two years whatever it was and there was just one great moment where they're like at one point uh mcconnell's people blamed scott and his people for the plan to cut medicare and social security and every other government program after five years and also raised taxes on working people but then scott blamed mcconnell for letting lindsey graham do the 15-week abortion ban and so i'm like which goes to your point there's just plenty of plenty of dumb ideas to go around there are i will yes i will i will i will pause and say the rick scott

sunset medicare medicaid raised taxes on half of taxpayers plan is excellent one of the greatest unforced errors in my entire life of paying attention there was absolutely no need for it drove 300 miles to step on a rake it like was completely unnecessary uh if you look at the amount the democrats spent on ads, abortion, obviously, number one, as we've talked about before. But right after that, ads about Medicare, ads about Social Security. It wasn't in the headlines. It wasn't being covered by the media. But it was Democrats were hitting that message.

Those were all the big like the clips of Obama on the road that were going around was all those sorts of hits. Absolutely. was all those sorts of hits. Absolutely. And also, Mitch McConnell was in this mess because he and his flunkies realized that Trump

is the problem, but they are all too weak to take him on. They're cowards. Complete cowards. It's not just that they're cowards. It's they, like,

where is the enthusiasm for other, like, you can maybe point to Ron DeSantis. They have not just, they didn't just concede the kind of party to Trump.

Like, they have been relying on the enthusiasm and excitement and like engagement that Trump generates. have not just they didn't just concede the kind of party to trump like they have been relying on the enthusiasm and excitement and like engagement that trump generates they have really outsourced the kind of grassroots part of politics to trump as a person and they're kind of shit out of luck and you know what he does uh that deal with the devil gets you emails from trump that are ostensibly about raising money for the Walker campaign, where it actually splits the thing nine to one favor of money to Trump versus money for the candidates.

But the McConnell people have no sympathy for them because they could have voted to impeach Donald Trump and taken this off the table to some extent. They were worried that he would leave the party and do his own third party sort of new MAGA party thing. And they were afraid of him. And that cowardice and that weakness is what got us here. Yeah. I'd also, you know, look, you can try to burn down the Capitol and you can insult and degrade every institution and aspect of our political life. Don't you lose us? Don't lose us. Look, now you're costing us seats. That's a sin we can't abide. Now, as much as I would love Rick Scott to take over for Mitch McConnell, I did look at the Senate Republican caucus page and looked at all those pictures. I could only count about 10 true yahoos that might back Scott over McConnell.

There's too many sort of establishment cucks there who are just mcconnell there's um there's a delay caucus which is like cruz rubio holly rick scott wait what the the argument is let herschel walker this is what they want get elected then we should have a vote i think that's also supported by right-wing organizations like the heritage foundation and club for growth but you're right it gets you. Yeah, it's still hard to get the number you need to oust McConnell. Well, let's talk about the House. So Democrats' path to keeping a 218-seat majority is incredibly narrow right now. Dave Wasserman of the Cook Political Report says that Republicans have won

or will probably win in 220 districts. For Democrats, it's 213 and two seats are still toss-ups. Either way, this will be the smallest number of House seats lost by the party in power in 20 years, even though the overall House vote is so far eight points more Republican than it was in 2020. That number could come down a bit as California gets counted, but probably not a ton. Any more thoughts on why that is or how we got here in the House? Not especially. I couldn't put it better than that.

I mean, to give it a whirl, I think some bad candidates cost them. A notable one, John Gibbs in Michigan, completely wackadoodle out there candidate. Clearly, the concerns about Republican extremism outweighed anger at Biden or the economy. I think we were greatly damaged in our efforts to keep the House by the Republican gerrymander in Florida. I think the Republicans got four seats out of Florida.

Republican gerrymander in Florida. I think the Republicans got four seats out of Florida. Yeah. Didn't help that we nominated a completely warmed over, uninspiring gubernatorial nominee against Ron DeSantis. And he just mopped up. You contrast that with Ohio, right? Where Tim Ryan lost to J.D. Vance, but helped flip house seats. We talked about New York last week and how we didn't do well there. Yeah. I mean, look, you can put together a Democratic majority by just undoing the gerrymander in Florida, a couple of other southern states, a better map in New York, a better map in Wisconsin. Just the fact that Salt Lake City is divided instead of being a district.

There are places all across the country you can look and find. Find the gerrymander to lose. Cook Political says Democrats won 100 100 of solid d seats likely d seats and lean d seats 100 of all those 69 of toss-ups nice and one lean r that was the other um very extreme candidate uh joe kent and washington the guy i was that guy's bonkers bonkers and that was another that was another Trump thing because Jamie Herrera Butler was a Republican who voted to impeach Trump. The party ousted her

because you can't be impeaching Trump in that party anymore. Joe Kent won the nomination. They thought it was still going to be safe. They lost. Yeah, there are a few places. I mean, one reason you will see Democrats winning all the places that lean Democrat

is because if they are places that lean Democrat is because if they are places that lean Democrat, they were not gerrymandered. And these Republican gerrymanders are so strong that it makes it possible if you just like basically they got a little greedy here and there. And there's a couple of seats we're picking off because they got a little greedy in their gerrymanders. Yeah. And then the other reason you had that gap between the swing for the House vote and how many seats Republicans picked up is there was real low turnout in safe Democratic seats. And then there were more contested Republican races. So the Wall Street Journal reported that right wing representative Andy Biggs of Arizona will challenge Kevin McCarthy for speaker. There's a vote today where McCarthy only needs a majority

of House Republicans, which he'll get. But Biggs wants to show that McCarthy does not yet have the 218 votes he'll need when the House convenes in January. What do you guys think? Is McCarthy in trouble? This is a hard one. It's I don't know. It's hard to see how this thing shakes out. There's reporting that McCarthy called Henry Cuellar to see if he could get him to flip. Really? Yeah, it didn't work. It didn't work. called Henry Cuellar to see if we can get him to flip. Really? Yeah, it didn't work.

I've been saying, not our Henry. But yeah, you got Matt Gaetz running around proposing every fucking numbskull. Can we listen? I think we have the Matt Gaetz clip, which we have to play. I've heard the name Tulsi Gabbard, someone who might actually bring us a few folks from the left who are tired of the corrupt ruling class in this town. Right now, there are a lot of the establishment Republicans

in denial, believing that Kevin McCarthy can somehow still become speaker. What I'm here to tell you is there are definitely at least five people, actually a lot more than that, who would rather be waterboarded by Liz Cheney than vote for Kevin McCarthy for Speaker of the House. And I'm one of them. So one thing I just want to point out is that like who waterboards you doesn't matter. It's more the process. It's the experience. So it's a weird thing because he's done, he makes comments like this in the past and it always ends up having a kind of vaguely sadomasochistic sexual element. That's all I wanted to point out. Do you think a Cheney could have some expertise

that others don't possess? Does that make it worse to be one or better? The founding fathers of... Also, by the way, good for Liz Cheney. You know what? Good for Liz Cheney. She stuck her neck out. She campaigned with Alyssa Slotkin.

You know what? Good for her. On this Tulsi Gabbard thing, I think I saw that Adam Black's alt was the eighth loss out of the 12 Republicans endorsed by Tulsi Gabbard thing, I think I saw that Adam Black's halt was the eighth loss out of the 12 Republicans endorsed by Tulsi Gabbard in her little tour where she pretended that she was suddenly leaving the Democratic Party for reasons other than her being just a completely weird person. I think if Carrie Lake loses, Tulsi will lose her ninth endorsement. So let's not pretend

that anyone cares what she thinks. No, I don't think so. So like if if Republicans end up if Republicans end up with 219 or 220 seats, they can only spare one or two defections. Kevin McCarthy. So that's on the like he could be in trouble side on the other side. Like you can't beat something with nothing. Any kind of challenger would also need 218 and only could spare a defection or two. Apparently, Donald Trump is telling people to back McCarthy. would also need 218 and only could spare a defection or two apparently donald trump is

telling people to back mccarthy uh one trump advisor said to cnn the strategy is to protect mccarthy from blame because trump needs him for his presidential run so so trump's trying to use mccarthy here and then apparently marjorie taylor green went on uh tommy's favorite podcast yeah bans war room and she said it would be she be a bad strategy to challenge kevin mccarthy i mean kevin has to get 218 votes the question becomes what concessions you make along the way to get there the some of the house freedom caucus members were pushing for a rule change that would make it possible for any member at any time to call a vote to depose the speaker in practice it just means you know kevin's gonna spend the next

couple months sucking up to dudes with names like chip roy you know what i mean but like he might get there there's no various q anon supporters yeah there's no alternative but there are what will these chaos these right-wing chaos agents be willing to take in terms of heat from the kind of serious adjacent people that are telling them to just go along with kevin mccarthy like how long can this go how much can they drag out how long can we go without a speaker before they kind of relent i don't know i don't know also i i think this is a little bit wishful i can also see this coming together pretty quick yeah but in my but in the but in the but in the part that wishes the same candle i lit before the election let it drag out let it go on but i do think if it does come together for mccarthy he's still gonna have a just a really tough time like hard job to the

impeachment conversation i don't know that there will be an impeachment with that size of caucus because you need three you need everyone on board You have a couple people on board. And again, these people, like, there's a very real shot that Democrats retake the House in 2024. We lost five seats in New York that Joe Biden won by four points or more in 2020. So, like, there's a real chance Democrats retake the House in 2024. So there's a bunch of Republicans sitting in districts that are pretty competitive. Like, do you really think going forward with the impeachment of Joe Biden is the best move here? I don't, I don't know. Right. They don't want to, and if they had, if let's say they'd gotten their 30 or 40 seats,

nobody wants to be part of the 10 to 20 that defect for something that passes, but to be the 10 to 20 that just stopped something from happening feels much more palatable. Yeah. The hard thing is that the hard right base of the party, the kind of TP USA kind of goobers are all going, they're very mad at McCarthy to begin with. And they were all are going to be demanding blood. They want to own the lips. That's all they care about. Right.

They want a hundred Biden investigations, which could still happen in a Republican house. And they want impeachment. Yeah, they absolutely will happen. Fauci in jail. They want, right.

So like that, how Kevin head back to the Wuhan lab, how Kevin balances him is a lot of Republicans, whether they said it out loud or not, believe that election denial was a losing issue. A lot of them believe that abortion was a losing issue. A lot of them believe these kooks were going to cost them races and seats. They thought maybe the wave would be big enough to overcome it. But now we've been given this proof point. OK, we've now seen it.

These are losing issues. it. But now we've been given this proof point. Okay, we've now seen it. These are losing issues. They still have to do the hard work of that like base to leader to base to leader and back and forth conversation where a big group of people that are supposed to be the adults start signaling down that we're not doing this anymore. But they're all afraid to do that still. Kevin McCarthy cannot do that now. So for all the talk about how they've learned their lesson, that is only true if over the next six months to a year, they start the hard work of basically trying to civilize the base that they've let go rabid over the last 30 years.

And I don't believe it's going to happen. And I think you need a party leader to do that. I think Donald Trump could do that. He could tell the base to chill out if he wanted to. Ron DeSantis did do it to a small extent in Florida. I was just going to say that. When they were screaming for him to pass a six-week abortion ban, he said no and stuck at 15 weeks, which was one of those moments where you're like, ah, this guy actually has some political instincts that are smart that Trump does not.

Yeah. Before we get too excited that they're not gonna be able to pull this together like ron desantis greg abbott um some of these red states did not like they were able to deal with the headwinds from abortion bans extremism threats to democracy which weren't popular in their states and these governors won anyway so um but if donald trump's leading the party that's gonna be tough yeah so we still have a few months before the new congress is seated um and there's a long list of things uh to get done in what's known as a lame duck session of congress nancy pelosi said she wants to lift the debt ceiling the senate announced they'll be voting to codify same-sex marriage protections uh there's also the Electoral Count Reform Act, government funding debates. What do you guys think is most realistic and important here in this list?

Because really, there's not a lot of time. The single most important thing that they can do is raise, ideally eliminate, the debt ceiling. There's nothing more important that they can do in this period of time. Ideally, they could scrap it forever. I don't know that that's possible. It seems like maybe too hard a road to hoe. But look at what is happening in the House right now. It is a dust cloud of right-wing arms and legs. They don't know. They don't know what they're going to do to stop the country from going into default. You cannot rely on this group of people. Schumer, Pelosi, they both said they want to do something about the debt ceiling. Manchin today kind of echoed what has been a

party line, which it should be bipartisan. Anita Dunn said that over the weekend as well. That's just what you say. Obviously, whatever concessions or deal you need to make with a few Republicans in the Senate right now is far better than taking the country to the precipice with a Republican House that has already said they will use the debt ceiling to get concessions on social safety net and taxes. They are telling you they're going to hold a gun to the country's head already. Don't wait for them to do it. Yeah. And on the because I saw people freaking out over a mansion saying it should be bipartisan. The reason the Democrats for a long time, and I think it's back to the Obama administration, would say, oh, it should be bipartisan is what they mean is one party shouldn't use it to ring concessions to policy concessions out of the other party.

So it should be if mentioned changes to, oh, it must be bipartisan or else I'm going to do it. Then we're all fucked. I don't like people like Romney and others are looking at this and they don't want to put the country through it either. This is where the business interests will lobby against it as well. That's where traditional Republicans have a little swat. They're also going to have to pass some must pass spending bills or else we're going to go into a government shutdown in mid-December. Which by the way, I'm wondering if they're just going to, they need to do a couple spending bills. You can do the debt ceiling without not having to deal with the filibuster if you do a budget resolution because that only needs 50 votes. So why don't you do a budget resolution that funds the government and everything else, all those other priorities, and then just tack the debt limit on there and just do it all at once.

The debt ceiling is like if you were trying to cut your credit card spending, and so you took a picture of yourself in full Nazi regalia, and you set an auto send on your email to go to everyone in your contacts if you ever hit your limit. But it doesn't stop you from spending money on the credit card. You just keep you ever hit your limit. Okay. But it doesn't stop you from spending money on the credit card. You just keep raising your credit card limit. Yeah. And you risk sending that picture. I think this happened in the... Just delete the photo.

...Nexium documentary I'm watching. Yeah. Yeah. Just don't... This is... Don't do it. All right. So we need the debt.

So the debt ceiling we can do if we get Mansion in Cinema on board. That's... Good idea. Let's do that. That's what it comes down to. I think it sounds like from all the reporting today that same-sex marriage protections will pass. The Respect for Marriage Act. Yeah, I'm very happy. Tammy Baldwin was insistent that it wasn't a political message bill. It was actually a bill to protect marriage equality. For me,

it was a political message bill, so pass it. I don't give a fuck. Pass the House with 47 Republican votes. I think the Electoral Count Reform Act is in very good shape as well. And we've talked about that before. I think they have like 30 co-sponsors, including Mitch McConnell. It would clarify the vice president's role. It would basically put the judiciary in charge of state certification or at least as a backstop for state certification so that people in state legislatures and governors couldn't just overturn the election with no judicial review, which is very important. And then it would raise the threshold in Congress to objecting to any

electoral results. Let's do that. I do think it was a bit untoward to include as a concession to some of the more conservative members of the House that we will hang Mike Pence to get it done in there. Leave him alone. He's on a book tour. Look, people don't read these bills. They didn't know you couldn't vote on Saturday before the Georgia run-up. They don't know that this electoral county will kill Mike Pence. There's some talk of-

He'll be hung to death. That's what it says. Until he is dead. There's some talk of trying to get the child tax credit done. I don't know what the prospects of that are. Some version of the permitting reform bill that was promised to Manchin as associated with the IRA. I don't know if that prospects of that are some version of the permitting reform bill that was promised to mention as associated with the ira i don't know that's gonna happen look these people barely work three days a week here and we got two months we are we got debt ceiling we got same-sex

marriage we've got uh electoral count reform act and then all this other funding for ukraine for the government for everything else that sounds like a pretty full sounds like a pretty full agenda yeah i mean these are these people these people run out of steam at 4.30. I mean, so do I. Look, I respect that. They're early risers, too. They've got to pee three times a night. They're old, is what I'm saying. Last but not least, Donald Trump is expected to announce his third presidential campaign from Mar-a-Lago at 9 p.m. Eastern tonight.

And a growing number of Republican politicians are not all that jazzed about it. Now that the twice impeached, two-time popular vote loser is responsible for the party's poor performance in the last three elections in a row. A new YouGov poll also shows that more Republicans now want Ron DeSantis to be the party's nominee over Trump

by a slim 41 to 39 percent. I just saw another poll come through. It's from the Club for Growth. It did state by state in the early states. And it's got DeSantis beating Trump by 11 points in Iowa, 15 points in New Hampshire, 20 points in Georgia, 26 points in Florida. No surprise. I guess not all early states. I'm not sure what their calendar is.

But those Iowa, New Hampshire numbers. Look, it could be juiced. I have no idea if a club for growth is a good pollster, but it's not going to make Mr. Trump very happy. No. Club for growth freaks. I love it. Just, I'm going to stop myself. Now I want to hear what you're going to do.

Something about masturbating to the Dow and then making up the numbers. Yeah. Yeah, that's where I was. Workshop it a little bit. Come back to the next pod. I didn't have it. Are you guys pretty psyched for another trump campaign i give me it is funny this is the last thing we talked about today in a very long list donald trump is fucking running for president again

we're gonna it's happening guys do you think he is as weak as he seems right now i love it you seem to think no from our earlier conversation i just i look maybe he is maybe he's i'm not going to make any predictions all i would say is why our predictions are perfect uh that you know there was a week after the insurrection where it seemed as though his political fortunes had turned i would say burning down the capitol should be a bigger deal breaker than um not getting as big of a majority in the house uh but uh we will see but to voters who knows they want to win if if this was a conversation just about like will the republican politicians break from him finally or back him in the end they'd be like yeah of course they're gonna rally around him in the end that's what they always do but the voters the vote the base is a different story laura

ingram on her show the other night was like we we can't be doing this anymore. He's starting to lose. I just think like, I really do think it's an open question. We forget how much institutional opposition he faced before he started winning primaries in 2016. He never had a supportive majority of the party. He won because they were divided amongst the other people that decided to run. So who knows? We'll see. Little run to sanctimonious. Let's see if it works. I think the challenge for all these, I agree that I think that much like Democrats in 2020, Republican voters this time around will care most about electability and not losing again. And so that would be the Achilles heel. I think the challenge for DeSantis and anybody else is that

Trump politically is Mike Tyson and he punches everyone as hard as he can all the time. And these guys come out and they shadow box him and they slap box him and they go for these sort of oblique criticisms in the Washington Times on background. It's just like it's not going to work. Trump has been able to consolidate the right wing, the MAGA base, the Fox news primetime hosts time and time and time again until we see like tucker carlson break or sean hannity break then i will start to wonder but yeah but not the like you know elitist london-based owner of the new york post that like semaphore is all fired up about like that to me is not like where the base is so far um just about every Republican candidate who has lost a race in this midterm has conceded or at least has not claimed victory. I think that is wonderful for democracy, first of all. But second of all, it hurts Trump and it hurts.

It hurts Trump's cause, because one of the reasons he embraced the big lie in the first place is because he knew the worst thing that could happen to him was for him to be viewed as a loser. And now Republican voters are once again thinking, we've now lost again. We've lost a bunch. From 2012 to 2020, except for 2016, and not a great midterm in 2014, Democrats have won every election. And so I think at some point, at some point, the voters might say, I wonder, because if I'm just making the argument, I don't know. None of us knows, obviously. But but I look at this, too. And like, I want to I'm a I'm a Republican. I want to win. And I got my two options here i got donald trump uh who won in 2016 and i kind of think probably won in 2020 i mean i've got ron desantis who i like a lot but who i know if he defeats donald trump in a primary will be torn to absolute fucking smithereens by this guy and will come out like a wounded animal oh by trump oh like i i just trump it is inconceivable to me like that donald trump

goes quietly into the night. You know that's not going to happen. Because even if a Republican defeats a Democrat in 2024, Donald Trump will view that as a personal rebuke to him. It cannot be allowed to happen. Yeah. Yeah, he'll burn the whole thing. Go for it. Run as a third-party candidate. He will never do that because he's too lazy and he won't actually get on the ballot.

He'll just be like a chaos agent on truth true social yeah which you know isn't isn't going that far all right when we come back rebecca katz and kip hebert from the federman campaign join tommy to talk about how they pulled off a big win against dr ross I am thrilled to be joined now by two of the brilliant minds that helped propel John Fetterman to victory, Rebecca Katz and Kip Hebert. Thank you both for being here. Thanks. Good to be here. Thanks for having us. So why don't we just start with the basics? Why don't we, can you guys just like quickly tell folks what you did for the campaign once you start, Rebecca?

Sure. So we've been with John now for about seven years. So we basically have been working with him on communications and just like general strategy that whole time. That's excellent. I should note for just for history that Rebecca and I worked together on the John Edwards for president. A very long time ago. In 2004 campaign, which I called the good one, the good Edwards campaign.

I refer to that as well. We'll let that go there. Okay. So we're going to get to the big picture stuff in a minute about how you guys won and all the strategy. The first question, it just has to be about Snooki, because in case listeners don't know what I'm talking about, the Fetterman campaign released the funniest video I've seen from a campaign, maybe ever. It starred the Jersey Shore star, Snooki, do we call them stars? I guess we do, talking about Dr. Oz leaving his home in New Jersey to go find a new job

in Pennsylvania, like genuinely hilarious. leaving his home in New Jersey to go find a new job in Pennsylvania. Like genuinely hilarious. I read that you guys first tried to get a video from The Situation, another Jersey Shore cast member, but that he didn't deliver. What happened there? What happened with Mike? I mean, where to begin?

So first of all, you have to know that New Jersey wasn't just about like shit posting. It was actually the number one thing that was popping off on odds with regular voters that, you know, people from Pennsylvania, especially Philly, don't like New Jersey. And so we were, we were having some fun with this New Jersey theme. John was doing the memes. And so we had a bunch of ideas about, you know, people from New Jersey and then tactics. So it's just, you know, I remember calling up Kip and we were talking about Jersey shore and cameo. And then, and then we tried the situation and then Kip, why don't you talk about what happened?

We got it back. Yeah. I mean, to his credit, he turned it around in a couple of days. He took some liberties. I don't think he has much else to do, man.

Yeah. So I believe it's like in mid June, we, we first had this idea. i wrote up like a script um sort of sent that to the situation he sent us back something a couple days later that was i guess you could say off message um still but like our you know our white whale was was was snooki whale is that's when we always wanted um and we submitted it and she there's this thing on cameo where if you don't if the celebrity doesn't do it within 77 days, they refund your money.

And then you have to submit it again. And we submitted it four times. And then finally in, I think we'd given up hope that it would actually ever really happen. And then in mid-July, we were in the middle of like a staff meeting and I got an email from Cameo that said it. She had done it and we just stopped everything and watched it several times in a row. We were screaming. I mean, it was the most perfect piece of video presentation I've ever seen in my life.

It was just, she nailed it. It was brilliant. And then it exploded. It really felt like there was like a time on the campaign before Snooki and then after Snooki. Yeah, I agree. I mean, did you enjoy it more than Crudite? Yes. How did that rank? I mean, because Crudite was him, Snooki and then after Snooki. Yeah, I agree. I mean, did you enjoy it more than Crudite? Yes.

I mean, because Crudite was him, but Snooki was us. You know what I mean? Like we had, well, I think you guys actually discovered a lot of the Crudite video. That was, you know, missed by some folks because he recorded it like back in April or something. But Snooki was just something

that we had been having so much fun with New Jersey. Like, do you remember that he recorded a message for Pennsylvania voters from his mansion in New Jersey? I know that because you guys told everybody and you landed that. Nick Gavio on our team found that out. And, you know, he was he was looking at the video. He's like and he sent in the group chat. I think this is New I think this is New Jersey House. And we all stopped everything that we were doing. We spent the whole day trying to figure out if it really was the same house. And I think, Kip, you were the one that found the bookcase, right?

Yeah, there's no way to talk about this without sounding completely crazy. But I found eight books in a row that were the same color and size in both of the two photos. I was like, okay, this is definitely it. But we were analyzing it like it was the Supruder film or something. God, I love it. But I mean, so the Snooki video gets at a broader point about the campaign that John ran, which is that the tone of the messaging. You guys seemed like you were having fun. We're having fun talking about it right now. The attacks on Dr. Oz, they were tough, but they didn't read it read as harsh or mean, especially especially when compared to what the monsters who worked for Dr. Oz eventually

ended up saying about John's health. How did you like settle on that approach in that tone? Is it a strategy that's uniquely suited to running against someone who is a let's face it, a clown? Or is it like something? He wasn't always the clown. I mean, that's I mean, we I feel like we made him a clown. I mean, when he was running in the primary, they didn't view him as a clown. They were running

xenophobic and hateful negative ads, right? Like we, John is from Pennsylvania. Like he, he gets it, right? So he knew we had real research to back up that people did not like, you know, the fact that Oz just moved here to try and win the Senate race. And, and John wanted to have fun with it. Remember, these are the early days that he was recovering from his stroke. We were, we were having internal meetings, but he wasn't out on the trail yet. And he just, I remember he just started sending us memes and they were really funny, you know? And so he really started, it wasn't that like, when they go low, we go, you know, we so he really started, it wasn't that like when they go low,

we go, you know, we go high. Like we didn't go high. We just tried to have some fun, you know? And like, and it worked. And it comes from the candidate, really. Usually the campaign that's having more fun is the campaign that's winning, right? Yes, John is a unique person.

And Oz is also very unique. But I do think that there's something that here that more Democrats should take advantage of because using humor allows you to deliver a negative message that just doesn't feel negative, right? And it, especially when you're doing it in a bunch of different ways, like, you know, we found that I mean, exit polls show that like 56% of Pennsylvania voters said that Dr. Oz didn't know Pennsylvania well enough. And this wasn't something that had been

a message focus of ours since the summer. So I think it really did stick in or sink in. And, you know, in a tech ad, you can respond with like, okay, well, here are the facts, but like a good joke, like mockery is hard to respond to. I mean, the only way is by being funnier. And if I might overgeneralize, Republicans are not funny. Like, I think that this is a thing that Democrats need to do more because professional Republicans, at least they've like, as you alluded to with the, you know, making fun of John stroke, they view cruelty and humor as the same thing. And they just instinctively punch down, which is something that just, you know, as human beings is not funny. So I think this is an area where Democrats have an advantage and could use more. I could not agree more. I mean, so like, again, it's just stepping

back a little, like, I can't imagine anything more challenging on a campaign than losing your greatest asset, which is your candidate's ability to campaign for several months during the, during the race. Um, that's obviously what happened when, when John had the stroke. How did you guys even begin to think about how to deal with that? Uh, knowing, you know, that you're not gonna be able to move election day? I mean, it was hard. I'm not gonna pretend it was easy. I mean, it was, there was like shell shock coming. Like, really, we drove right from the hospital to the election night party on primary day, Like it was, and then we won every county in Pennsylvania, like it was happening quickly. And then there was, and then we went right into focus groups. Honestly, we had, we were running on two tracks and I mean, the research showed exactly what John had been saying all along that, you know, like that people actually care about

real human issues, you know, and he was just, he was real. And so we decided to share the recovery a little bit. And it wasn't easy for him. You know, when you have something like a stroke, you want to go away for a few months and recover in private. And there was such a drumbeat of like, when is he coming out there? And it was just, it was, it wasn't, that part wasn't fun, but we decided to go out before he was perfect and to show people a little bit about like that humanity. And I think a lot of reporters just thought, like looked at him and just said, like, he's not, he can't do this. And a lot of folks actually, like, this resonated with them. It was like a family member. Yeah. I mean, like, the biggest obvious instance of this was the debate. I mean,

when we had John on Pots of America, I didn't do that interview. But when I listened back, you know, there were times where I winced a little bit, you know, I watched the debate online, I found it hard to watch in moments, in part, because like, I fell for him as a human being. But also because, look, I'm a hack. I worried about how it would play politically. Now I've like made a fool of myself enough with predictions, you know, not to do that anymore. Right. So I shut the fuck up. But a lot of reporters and pundits predicted doom and gloom. What do you think they got wrong? Is it? I think they got a lot wrong. I mean, I think when I, when this debate, people came out of it believing that John had had a stroke and that Oz was like a snake oil salesman who was going to take away their abortion, their right to an abortion.

Right. And people already knew that John had a stroke. So it wasn't like they were learning something new, but they also knew he was getting better. And and he was he was brave. He was reading through captions. He was doing something that no one had really done before. And the stakes were very high. As Kip likes to say, he was like lying on television for 20 years. It was a place where he felt comfortable. And he didn't do that good a job. And then he was a little too honest in terms of talking about local political leaders taking away abortion rights. And people looked, I mean, that was the takeaway. I mean, we turned the women on the team, the second that Oz said that about local political leaders, all of us kind of yelled at the same time. And we turned that into an ad. And we, you know, when people in Pennsylvania think of local political leaders, they think of people like Doug Mastriano.

They don't want him, you know, in charge of their rights. And so it was a real blunder. And most reporters missed it. I mean, Kip, I saw Rebecca say, you know, the coverage the next day was basically like candidates spar, candidates trade barbs, right? Like typical stuff. What like were the DC pundits not reading the local coverage? Or is that a ready fire aim approach? Like, how do you think it got so, I don't know, twisted on on social media, mostly? I think there's a tendency for reporters and political insiders, because we are the ones who care about sign whites, like, like, nobody's harder on our, you know, candidates than ourselves

to think that this is how voters think but pretty much everything um that we know suggests that that's you know just another sort of dc obsession like i think it also john was also able to survive it in part because he had never been a candidate who tried to come up as as the slickest or most polished like john was real like that first and foremost that was his biggest asset And that really continued through the stroke group, you know, showing him flaws and all, you know,

people sometimes say that John is an effective politician because he's like a regular person. I don't know if he's a regular person. Like if you just look at him, it doesn't look like that, but he's a real person, you know, right.

You're getting the real, the real thing. It's, you know, unfiltered, it's not scripted, it's not polished. And I think because John has always been that way, because we ran the whole campaign that way, we were able to

show people what was really happening here. And I think, to their credit, I think the voters of Pennsylvania were a lot more sympathetic to John than some of the reporters covering him. Yeah, yeah, certainly. And frankly, I also thought that Oz came off as like really like slick and fast talking and aggressive and it didn't play that well to me um his whole campaign was me i mean that's yeah like you can't pretend to be mr nice guy when you say the things that you're that campaign has said and i think it caught up with him saying that if john had eaten a vegetable he maybe wouldn't have had a stroke is one of the most insanely tone deaf, like disgraceful things I've ever seen a flack say.

I'm surprised that person wasn't fired. But that's the whole point. He didn't fire her. Right. Like she still had the job. And and if if anyone on our staff had said something like that, like there would be zero tolerance for that kind. And and then what Oz did, which was so Oz like is then he just said, well, she doesn't speak for me. She only speaks for the campaign.

Oh, my God. I mean, it was just, he just, he couldn't, no matter, even as a stroke survivor, John was much stronger than Oz ever was. And voters saw that. Yeah. There was this huge debate at the end of the campaign in all the races about whether Democrats should be talking about abortion access, democracy, inflation, the economy, like some Twitter geniuses wanted to focus on Paul Pelosi for a cycle. What did you guys hear at the end from voters and what worked when it came to persuading and turning them out? I mean, so the voters who were still like the ones that we were persuading were those independent suburban women. And then for turnout,

we were still making sure that all of our, you know, like everyone in Philadelphia got out to vote and things like that. And I think, first of all, we had Oprah, which was the most beautiful gift I think we could have ever asked for. And she said this very devastating quote about Oz where she said, you know, she said if she lived in Pennsylvania, she would have already voted for John Fetterman. And she said for, quote, unquote, many reasons. I thought that was the most devastating thing I've ever heard, because it's just like you don't know what they are, but, you know, it's bad. And she just kind of dropped that news on on a Thursday night. And then we had the view the next day where we were talking to those same women.

And then we had Obama come in on that Saturday. And it just felt, we just felt like we had momentum. Like it just felt really, really great on the ground. Yeah. I mean, Kip, you guys did those events with Obama at the end of the campaign. They looked big. They felt exciting, right? I was sitting here in LA on Twitter, like all inspired all over again, because'm a you know it has been but did those rallies translate into votes in a way you guys felt you could quantify i mean it certainly it translated into great coverage wall to wall and also you know donald trump gave us a basically an inclined uh contribution by coming to pennsylvania on the same day so really like it

couldn't have been a better way to close out the campaign by showing the contrast between you know somebody who's like he was trying to present himself as moderate, but was standing with Trump, literally standing with Trump and Mastriano. Whereas John, you know, he might have an unconventional style, but he's, you know, you know, a relatively mainstream Democrat. Obviously, you know, he's, I'd say he's a good Democrat, but he's not, you know, they were trying to portray him as extreme and scary. And like, there is nothing extreme.

It's like Biden's ratings might not have been great, but there's nothing extreme or scary about Joe Biden. No, no, there is not. I mean, the flip side is you guys got a barrage of attacks. A lot of them were on crime from Dr. Ross from super PACs. Were there ones that really stuck or worried you? And if so, how did you rebut those? I mean, it was a hundred million dollars in attack ads. Like, let's just talk about like from the middle of August to the end of September, we were out there basically by ourselves. Like the, the, the, the, we didn't get real backup until October with the outside group. So, so for six weeks, they were just beating the shit out of us all day long. And then Fox news all night long was just going after John, Sean Hannity,

Tiger Carlson, the worst. So it was just, it was like nonstop attacks and was just going after John. Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, the ones. So it was just, it was like nonstop attacks and they were going after his character because they didn't, they knew that Oz's ratings were so low that they couldn't, they couldn't bring him up. So they wanted to tear John down. So they spent just like going after everything. Fox news went after John's wife, Giselle, and just like pretended that, you know, John was a vegetable and Giselle was behind the scenes. Just like crazy batshit stuff. And they just didn't stop. And they were relentless.

And our side wasn't like, we weren't as, we weren't mean. You know, we were talking about what was on the table. And I think voters at the end of the day decided they wanted more normal representation than these crazy people out there. And it was very mean-spirited, too. It was nasty. $100 million. That's so much money. But that goes back to our July stuff.

Like when John was doing all the snooki, you know, you can make fun of it. People thought he was funny and they liked him, right? Snooki, you know, you can make fun of it. People thought he was funny and they liked him. Right. And if you have a candidate for a state like Pennsylvania, where the Republicans are going to come after with everything they have, which is like a hundred million dollars, you got to be fucking likable at the end of the day, because like they're, they're, they're just going to bring those negative, you know, approvals down as much as possible. So you have to, at the end of the day, like you have to get people to, to like, you know, to, to say that they're going to vote for you.

Yeah, yeah. All right. This is a long question. So bear with me. But, you know, the strategy you guys ran was very smart, in my opinion. Like John outran Biden in these sort of rural, more red counties, pushed down Oz's numbers there. And then you run up the score in Philly and other sort of urban places to win.

That sometimes gets shorthanded, including by you guys, I think, is like a strategy where Democrats have to go everywhere, right? You go to every county, you count on every vote. That's the key to win. That sometimes gets shorthanded, including by you guys, I think, is like a strategy where Democrats have to go everywhere, right? You go to every county, you count on every vote. That's the key to victory. The pushback I hear when I sort of evangelize that kind of strategy from Democrats is they point to Beto O'Rourke's race in Texas and they say, that guy went everywhere literally for four years. Couldn't have worked harder, still fell short. I was talking to a statewide elected official the other day who said to me, if I hear you guys talk about this go everywhere shit one more time on your podcast, my head is going to explode because I go everywhere. I go to red counties and it gets me nothing. So I guess the question is, is it better to describe the strategy as Democrats need to pick

candidates like John, who for whatever reason, background policy look can get a hearing everywhere versus go everywhere. I mean, so there's a couple of different arguments here, right? Like, yes, I think I think you want we need better candidates. I think there's been this like milquetoast kind of cookie cutter, Democratic ideal candidate that loses a lot of general elections that we've seen run statewide a lot. I also think a lot of this is about having candidates who know who they are and who have backbone. I mean, John went into those counties, those deep red counties, and he talked about what abortion rights, gay rights. There was nothing he said there that he wouldn't say in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh. And he went into those counties and

he said, I want to be the 51st vote for Democrats in the Senate. He wasn't afraid to be a Democrat. I mean, you remember when Obama was president, we had people running for Senate who were afraid to say they voted for him. You know, like we can't have that kind of, like if we as a party need to actually be a little bit more confident and not ashamed of who we are. And I think that's part of it too. So it's about going to every county, but then having something to say when you go there. Kip, you got thoughts from my go everywhere critics who yell at me? Well, I mean, I think another thing, another lesson from John's race that I think applies, could apply to a lot of Democrats is, you know, as Rebecca said, stop apologizing for being a

Democrat, just be confident in who you are and what you stand for. And I think people will respect that. But I think it's also illustrative that, you know, John won in a year when the president was unpopular, and he did it. He didn't do it by trashing his own party. He didn't do it by throwing Biden under the bus. He didn't do it by running hard to the right. He did it by being himself, not apologizing for it. And just, you know, having confidence in his convictions that, you know, having confidence in his convictions that, you know, whatever they're going to say, we are still the party that's, you know, closer to like what the mainstream of Pennsylvania actually wants. And not just confidence in his convictions, but courage in his convictions. You know, I think that was, that's part of it too. Like,

they came after us on crime, they came after us about his stroke, whatever it was, we just talked about it. Right. And, and John had a record to point to, and he wasn't just going to sit like, I think there's been too many Democrats who try to be Republicans on, on, on some of these issues just because they're afraid to be attacked. And I mean, John was head of a board of pardons, you know, he let, like he allowed innocent men to leave prison because it was the right thing to do. Right. But he knew when he did that, that people were going to come after him and use it in attack ads.

And they did. And it was like and he did it so people wouldn't die in prison for for crimes they were wrongly convicted of doing. You know, like it's like he had humanity. And I think it comes back to that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'll be honest. When I saw his response to those attacks and the idea that he should have just sort of let a couple of guys rot in prison for the rest of their lives who were wrongly convicted just because it would have been bad politics. That's when I was like, all right, this guy is for me. OK, looking ahead, you know, I luckily in this job, I've gotten to work with like talk to a lot of smart people like you. I talked to Ben Wickler, the head of the Wisconsin Democratic Party all the time.

I like thank God that for what he and his team are doing every day, there's just like two years, four years, like party building infrastructure. What do you think Democrats need to do to be prepared in the same way in Pennsylvania in 2024? And is there the same sort of state party infrastructure that we should be investing in and building off of? Right. I mean, as you know, I come from the Harry Reid machine, right? And like, this is all about like investing in the party infrastructure and like building something for years and years and years.

I think we should be doing that everywhere. I also think we need better, more competent staff, like in a way that like there's a lot with campaign staffers that you kind of just go and you do it for a little bit and then you like leave. I think we actually need to get some professional staffers who can get better and wiser and help usher in like a new generation of talent. We need a bench. We don't have that right now. I think we're starting to get some rising stars. We need more of them. But I don't think these scary right-wingers are going anywhere. And I think we need to be able to fight back hard and not just say there's some good people on that side. I think we have to understand what some of these risks are and what's out there and fight back.

Yeah. Kip, you mentioned before that Snooki was kind of your white whale. Were there any white whales that didn't get back to you or like hits you wish you could have delivered that you never, that got left on the cutting room? I mean, we really would have loved to have done something with It's Always Sunny, just given the connection there. It just sort of seemed like a match made in heaven, but that proved to be difficult for interactual issues. I mean, for a long time, we had been hearing about,

there's this puppy story that's coming, and we just kept hearing about it in the background for months and months and months. And it just sounded like the worst thing ever, and then it came out and it kind of was um it was worse than we had heard it would be yes yeah it was disgraceful i mean like inhuman i mean that's such a good example of how politics and like campaigning has changed because when i was like doing oppo hits against Sarah Palin, right? Like you beg the wall street journal to write that story up for six months based on some oppo. And like, if they run at your site, if not, it can just die. Like the fact that where did that

end up? It was, um, uh, yeah, it was Jezebel, right? Like it didn't matter that it was on, you know, a blog that some people might not have heard from about before. Like it exploded either way. Well, because it was true. I mean, it exploded because like he couldn't deny it. Like he did the most horrible, horrible things. And the contrast of that with John and Giselle having these like rescue pups, like, I mean, they have a three-legged dog who had been abused. I mean, they really, they are rescue dog people.

So like Oz could not have been more like the cartoon villain, I would say, except he was actually like killing puppies. I mean, it was like, you couldn't make it up. Yeah, that's just the worst. Final thoughts, any like final thoughts from both of you on lessons to learn from this cycle and things we should be thinking about going forward? Because obviously, you know, the results were better than a lot of us anticipated. Maybe they're better than we anticipated because Democrats sometimes myself very much included, assume the worst is going to happen based on recent history. But Rebecca, why don't you go first. I mean, abortion, like let's, let's talk about that for just one more sec. Like we would not be where we are today. The, all the Democrats, unless women's rights were taken away very drastically and horribly. Right. And we can't just sit around and high five. Like we have to fight back. We have to codify Roe. We have to codify same sex marriage. Like we have, we have a lot

of work to do. And as we go into the next Congress, we got to try and push through as much as possible because I think there's some really bad things coming. And I think the lesson here is when you get power, let's produce some results. Use it. Yeah. Kip, thoughts? I mean, one thing I would love the party to take away from this is reevaluating the idea, its idea of who we consider to be electable. I mean, I think often there's just this assumption that bland and generic candidates are going to be our best chance of winning. And I just don't know that it's really played out that way. I think in fact, you know,

a lot of these white bread candidates, they try to appeal to absolutely everyone. And as a result, they excite pretty much no one. And I think one of the reasons John was able to succeed this year is in large part because he's not straight from central casting. It allowed him to establish his own sort of independent image. It means he doesn't necessarily like rise and fall along with Biden. And I think, you know, we could be missing. We've missed out on a lot of candidates like John before by, I think. In fact, we missed out on him in 2016 when he ran. That's right. That's right.

Or he went with somebody else. I mean, this isn't John, but I was trying to think, when was the last time you think the Democrats ran a candidate for a statewide office who had not graduated from college, for example? Like, there's clearly, like, a massive gap in terms of Republicans and Democrats in terms of college educated voters. And I wonder if we tried speaking to those voters from a place of experience, for example, you know, or embraced shamelessly embracing economic

populism. We know it works, but too many Democrats aren't into that. So, yeah. And super, super tall U.S. senators, I think. No hair. Well, listen, Kip, Rebecca, thank you guys for everything you did to make this happen. Literally can't thank you enough for like, you know, saving democracy. And a special thank you to all the Pod Save Boys. I mean, we we were up against Fox News and we had like you. So thank you, because it's just it is there is there is not an apparatus to really effectively deal with with the right wing media that's coming at us. And so we thank you for what you do as well. Listen, you're very nice to say that we are trying to build a progressive media infrastructure. If you wouldn't mind letting some of the folks over at the White House know that it would be a good thing to help cultivate

and build and care and feed places like us, that would be helpful. But listen, we're going to do it anyway. So I appreciate it. I'm not sure if they listen to me, but sounds good. They should. Thank you. Thanks, guys.

Talk to you. Bye. All right, before we go, Hallie Kiefer is back. She's back. By popular demand. She's waving at us. It's a podcast. I know.

We're in the same room. We're going to play a game about Donald Trump in honor of his announcement today. It's exciting. Hallie, take it away. I will. Thank you. It's exciting. Hallie, take it away. I will. Thank you. Okay, good. Over the weekend, Senate running back

Josh Hawley tweeted, the old party is dead. Time to bury it, build something new. While Hawley might want to inter Trump's legacy, his fellow Republicans are running in circles

trying to decide the party line on the former president given that, oh, daddy boy, is going to be announcing his 2024 run on Tuesday night.

Are they all going to run like rats off the ship? Or are they excited to scrape Trump's ketchup off the White House walls for four more years? While plenty of Republicans seem confused about whose boots to start licking, Trump's or Ron DeSantis' gorgeous white knee-high numbers, others have made a definitive statement, and that's all I needed to bring you a game. Here's how this is going to work. I'm going to read you the name of a Republican. You're going to tell me what you think they've indicated post-midterms with regards to Trump.

Are they riding the Trump train, exiting the Trump train via the emergency exit? Or are they sort of just dangling precariously, holding out with one hand to the Trump train as like a Bond villain's henchman as the Republican Party hurtles around a sheer cliff. So those are the options. Riding, exiting, or dangling. Got it. I'm just going to read the name, and you'll let me know where do you think we've landed. And I'm going to read you the quote that, again, could any of them be trusted?

No. And also, you may have all heard this. The post-election cycle has been insane in the news. But are you ready to play? Yeah, so ready. Senator Bill Cassidy, a Republican of Louisiana, and love it, I guarantee you probably don't know the answer to this. What did he say with regards to Trump on Meet the Press? And is he riding?

Is he exiting? Or is he dangling? I know what he said. Okay. I know what he said. Well, where do you think he said it? He said, we're not a cult I know what he said. Okay. I know what he said. Well, where do you think he said it? He said, we're not a cult,

is what he said. But honestly, it seemed like a way out of answering. To me, he's dangling. Okay. That's how I feel about it. It felt like, it was between dangle and exit.

I know. But I think I'd go with dangle. Yeah, Louisiana, I think you're dangling for dear life. You can't jump off that train yet. I think he'd like to leave the train, but he doesn't feel safe to. I mean, most of these people are in their hearts.

They're leaving in their hearts. How do we adjudicate this? Do we call them? I think there's unfortunately no way to know. It's a game with no meaning. It exists in a liminal time. Hopefully, well, also, even if there were definitive answers, they just changed their minds. That's true.

I think his majority rule is dangling. Dangling. It's a dangle. Just to read the full quote, we're not a cult. We're not like, okay, there's one person who leads our party. Could have fooled me. Bill Cassidy. How do we feel about Senator-elect?

I'm sorry to even say that. J.D. Vance out of Ohio. How do you think? Oh, he is on that train. He's got to be on the train. That train got him where he needed to go. Peter Thiel paid for that with good money. Yeah, that's how he got his ticket.

Now, this I can say definitively, yes, because he said every year the media writes Donald Trump's political obituary, and every year we're quickly reminded that Trump remains the most popular figure in the Republican Party. That, of course, was saying he's excited for Trump to be the 2024 nominee.

J.D. Vance, absolutely rioting. Fact check true, that whole statement. Fabulous. Senator John Thune, Republican from South Dakota, and I guarantee you might not know what the answer is. Doesn't make sense to do the voice. Well, it's beautiful. I feel as though he's going to exit the Trump train

sooner or later. Oh. Ooh. Well, that blew my hair back. Obviously, you can't see it again. We are videotaping this. My eyebrows are just seeing it. Oh, wow.

I mean, I think he wants to exit. He's probably wanted to exit for a while. I bet he said something that's a dangle. Yeah, I think he's a dangler. He's not trying to. He doesn't want to make itler Not because he doesn't want off But because he didn't want to make news And he wants to be minority leader or majority leader

I want to say he actually went public He basically blamed Trump's endorsements For the midterms losses and he said You can't have a party that's built around one person's personality Again they really did try though Wow Sooner or later he's out of here Just the same joke I know No but no it's funny what he said it was fun

it felt better when he said it so that i think that's more of an exit than cassidy yeah for sure i agree a little bit more and then um how about uh representative elise uh stefanik from uh new york where do you think we're headed with this? She's the conductor. Yeah, she's in... She's got one of those hats with the lines on. Yeah. Well, I don't even know if you asked her to or wanted her to, but she already preemptively endorsed Trump,

so I'll throw her weight behind him. Harvard's finest. I'm proud to endorse Donald Trump for President 2024. It's time for Republicans to unite around the most popular Republican in America who has a proven track record of conservative governance. I just want to say one more time about this place called Harvard. They take all these kids, half of them turn evil, and then the evil ones battle the good ones for 500 years.

So stupid. Shut it down. Take away their endowment. Tax it. Do something. This place has to be stopped. Harvard grads, let us know what you think. And they waitlisted me twice.

I was going to tell a terrible story about going to Harvard, but millions of people listen to this. It's not really worth it. It doesn't stop loving it. You've got to forget that. I went to Harvard once and I got crabs. That's all I'm saying. Oh, wow. Nice.

That's my experience with the institution. Tom Cotton. Where do we think he's? Is he riding? Is he jumping out the back of the train? Or is he holding on for dear life? He's got a dangle. He's got a dangle. I have no idea, but I'm going to say riding because he did float hilariously that he was considering a run,

but he decided against it. Not that the people decided they hated him and they didn't want him to run. So I'm going to say riding. So I heard that you said over the weekend that like McConnell should still be minority leader. So that's going to lead me to a dangle position because if you're with McConnell, you got to leave yourself some space. I think you're absolutely right. Here's a quote I pulled. When any party is out of power, as Republicans are now, we don't have a single leader. Trump is obviously very popular with many of our voters. We also have other important leaders as well.

That's a dangle. That's a dangle, baby. That's a real dangle. That's a dangle, baby. He doesn't want to say it. A lot of Republicans dangle off the strain. He doesn't want to say too much too soon. Oh, my God.

Oh, man. Oh, my God. I think he's cottoning on to some of this Trump lack of popularity. There we go. There we go. How many people have turned this off? It's just us now? Hey, stay tuned for the C-block for a lot of puns.

David Axelrod is here. Little Marco Rubio. Oh. Where are we going? So he's one of the little mini insurrectionists saying they should delay the vote on Senate minority, majority leader or whatever it turns out to be. No, minority.

From McConnell. There is not a... He has to dangle. It is in his bones. He does not know how to ride the train, doesn't know how to lead the train. He is dangling.

Yeah. There's no courage in those five-inch heels he wears. Nothing wrong with being short. Big chair. That's nothing. Being short is fine. He tweeted... You don't need to be strong to be a good senator. That's an being short. Big chair. That's nothing. Being short is fine.

He tweeted. You don't need to be strong to be a good senator. That's an old thing. We get it. Better man. We get it. It's unbelievable. A man of a certain height.

John Lovett. What does height do now? Nothing. That's true. We're all sitting anyways. Yeah. We love to sit. Sit in front of a computer.

I love sitting. Tall presidents are stupid. Where are we? What's happening? Read the quote, Hallie. First, we need to make sure that those who want to lead us are genuinely committed to fighting for the priorities and values of the working Americans, parentheses, of every background, who gave us big wins in states like hashtag Florida. To me, that's a DeSantis, the Florida of it all.

That's a way of praising DeSantis while feigning towards suggesting a criticism of Trump while never actually making it. It's a dangle. It's a dangle, 100%. Marco Rubio is the king of

a double negative to avoid saying the positive. Like, this party cannot be in the business of being

anti-working class. You know what I mean? He just does the... I just want to credit Hallie for when she said parenthetical, she did kind of a curve with her hand.

Right, because you can visibly see me, which is why I wave. It helps me. It's on the YouTube. It's on the YouTube. It will be on YouTube. We do have a website.

Two more. What is it even really... I just put it on here because I thought it was interesting. And this isn't even specifically about the midterms, but just sort of the timing of Mike Pence's ABC News interview,

which drops this evening. Oh, we didn't talk about that. This can't be a coincidence that it's coming out now. And I'm asking you, choo-choo, is the Trump train leaving the station? Is Mike Pence on it? And then I will read you the quote because to me, I think it's pretty like, okay. Yeah, no, he's off of it because otherwise he would have been dragged behind it. Yeah.

No, yeah, he got off the train and then it's been a couple hours and he's looking around the station and he's just a sad lonely boy with a suitcase and his mom hasn't picked him up yet and he doesn't know what's gonna happen he they tried to kill him on the train they tried to it was like a murder it was a throw mike pence from the train it was a murder on the trump train uh yeah murder on the mega express it was a case too easy for our man, our man on the train, Hercule Perrault, because we all know who did it. It was Trump with the noose at the Capitol. So the clip that the ABC News released is him talking about January 6th and sort of being asked, like, what do you think about what Trump did? And he says, Mike Pence says, I turned to my daughter who was standing nearby and said, it doesn't take courage to break the law.

It takes courage to uphold the law. The president's words were reckless and he clearly decided to be a part of the problem. Adding, he endangered me

and my family and everyone at the Capitol building. First of all, that is the most Mike Pence thing I've ever fucking heard. First of all,

it's such a stupid way to describe an emotional, like, just say, like, he tried to fucking kill you. That's the first thing. Second of all, it's such a stupid way to describe an emotional. Like, he tried to fucking kill you. That's the first thing. Second of all, how can you be given a layup like that and miss? It does take courage to break the law. I don't think it's good when people rob a bank, but you got to be brave. What conservative fiction writer did he turn to to design that little vignette?

Yeah. I think he's a hero. Oh. What a goofball. Two sides to every story, I guess. I mean, you forget that the guy

wasn't alone in the Capitol. He was with his kids. And he still doesn't have the guts to say anything until he has a book to roll out. Ugh, Mike Pence. I don't know if it'll be

a bestseller. No, I don't think it will. I don't think it will. I can't wait for, I would say Tommy's Book Club. Oh, that. It's Tommy's, it's Tommy's Book Club. It'll be so hard to read. No, I don't think it will. I can't wait for, I would say Tommy's Book Club. Oh, it's Tommy's, it's probably Tommy's Book Club. It'll be so hard to read that.

We have one more person, just because I love the quote he had, and that person is Newt Gingrich. Oh. Recently told him to return his speaker by Matt Gaetz. Oh my goodness.

Honestly, not his worst pitch, to be honest. I mean, just on the list. It makes the most sense. Better than Tulsi Gabbard. Yeah, better than bringing a Fox News kook. Yeah, Tulsi. Actually, they're both Fox News kooks.

He's the original Fox News kook. Fox News was built around him. Yeah, he's the ur-Fox News kook. If you dig under the mausoleum, the equivalent of where they'll find Cleopatra's bones, you find Newt Gingrich. Here's the quote. This is in regards

to the midterm results. I feel like a guy whose compass is so goofed up I have no idea which way is north. The Republican Party is goofed up. There's no better way

to say it. It's like, yeah, you're goofed up right now. Congrats on trying mushrooms. It's like a genuine dangle. Yeah, look at that. I think nude is torn. Yeah, It's like a genuine dangle. Yeah, look at that. I think nude is torn. Yeah, nude is a seared dangle.

He's really, he doesn't know what to do. We might be able to get nude. He's goofed up. We're never going to get nude. You don't think we could get nude. We'll trade him for Henry Cuellar. My friend Liz Cheney over here begs to differ. Remember when Newt did the TV ads about climate change on the couch with Pelosi?

Sat on that bench with Pelosi. 2005. I think he had to walk that back. It's a brief. Actually, it's good. I like how hot and wet everything is now. But I just, our phenomenal writer, Sarah Lazarus, wrote, and I just want to read this to you, grand old party, more like goofed old party.

Wow. Again, Sarah Lazarus, thank you for that. This game couldn't have ended, damn it. Damn it. Couldn't have ended... Damn it. Damn it! Couldn't have ended a moment too soon. Oh, fuck. You had to fuck that up. All right, everyone.

Hallie Kiefer, thank you for a fantastic game. Rebecca Katz, Kip Hebert, thanks for joining us. We will talk to you on Thursday. See you at the movies. the movies. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive producer

is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner-Bernstein. Our producers are Hayley Muse and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis sound engineered the show. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz, Sandy Gerard, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com slash pod save America.