Pod Save America - “8chan in the White House.”

Episode Date: August 5, 2019

A white nationalist terror attack in El Paso, Texas and a mass shooting in Dayton, Ohio focus the country’s attention on the President’s racism and America’s gun violence crisis. Then Democratic presidential candidate Beto O’Rourke talks to Jon F. about the terrorist attack on his hometown and what we can do about the threat of white nationalism.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vsort. Later in the pod, my conversation with Beto O'Rourke, who left the campaign trail to be in his hometown of El Paso, which was the site of one of this weekend's two mass shootings. The other took place in Dayton, Ohio. And we will be spending today's pod talking about what led to this domestic terrorism and what we can do about it. Before we do, a few housekeeping notes.

Lovett, how was the show this weekend? I heard new Democratic sex symbol Jay Inslee stopped by so that's good yeah yeah you did wasn't just the planet heating up we had a great lot of those jokes they're just okay I hope I hope to hear them all in the episode that may be the one I used in the episode who can remember it was a great episode Kara Swisher Kara Brown Rami Youssef, Jay Inslee stopped by.

Truly one of my favorite episodes in a long time. Check it out. Check it out. We also have a brand new Crooked mini-series coming out this Wednesday, hosted by our very own Shaniqua McClendon, Crooked Media's political director. It's called Rigging North Carolina,

and it follows the story of the political consultant who was accused of committing election fraud in North Carolina's 9th district during the 2018 midterms. It's why we're going to have another election there in September. One more from 2018. So check that out. It's an excellent series, and Shaniqua is awesome. Okay.

The news. Over 30 people were murdered in two mass shootings that took place hours apart this weekend in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, Ohio, just a week after a shooting in Gilroy, California that left three dead. The El Paso massacre that occurred at a Walmart left over 20 dead, dozens more injured and is being investigated as a potential act of domestic terrorism. The suspected gunman drove from Dallas after posting a manifesto on the site 8chan where he wrote that quote, this attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas. Later that evening in Dayton, another gunman used an AR-15 to murder at least eight people, including his own sister, in a killing spree that lasted for

less than a minute before he was shot by law enforcement. Sunday marked the 216th day of 2019 and the 251st mass shooting, with El Paso becoming the eighth deadliest shooting in U.S. history. Guys, we're going to talk about white nationalism and gun control and what we can do, but what were your initial reactions over the weekend hearing this news? You know, we've had this conversation on the show many times, and that is what I thought about. What I thought was, well, here we are again. This is completely expected and predictable. These events will happen again and again and

again. And we have done nothing to prevent that from happening. We've taken no actions to change the underlying conditions that are causing these events to happen on repeat. And so when it happens, we shouldn't be surprised, which is a completely predictable outcome of our politics and our policies, is what I thought. Tommy? Yeah, I mean, I think that there are probably two parts to it. I mean, I'm like a relatively large adult male who lives in a safe place,

and now I enter public spaces and scan for exits. So that's a fucked up feeling. I, you know, essentially asked my wife not to go to the mall on Saturday. It's just out of paranoia. So that's the personal side. I think on the political side, I'm just so far past sad. I'm furious. These warning signs have been coming for a long time,

and I think there's sort of two parts to it that you can't really disaggregate. In my opinion, there's the problem of guns just being awash in this country. And then there's this growing threat of paranoid white nationalists taking paranoid, horrific action to murder people based on language they're hearing from mainstream political commentators like Tucker Carlson and the president of the United States. And we need to deal with both. And I think, you know, we need to summon some of this rage. And remember, we have agency here and start fighting for some changes. Yeah, I think what really hit me was I saw a headline in Australia's Sydney Herald, and the headline in the newspaper was,

U.S. in the midst of a white nationalism terror crisis. Accurate. And it always hits home when it's another country, how another country would report about your country. And I think sometimes it's hard to have that outsider perspective when we're here watching this unfold every day and to see that other countries are calling what's happening in the United States of America, a white nationalism terrorist crisis, it's pretty stunning and pretty sad. All right. So like you said, Tommy, I think it is hard to completely separate our white nationalism problem from our gun problem but let's start with the 2300 word manifesto linked to the terrorist attack in el paso in which the author said that he was inspired by the writings of the white nationalist terrorists who killed 51 people at two mosques in christ

church new zealand the author also decried shameless race mixers accused democrats of quote pandering to the hispanic voting bloc and justified the murder of mexicans and hispanic immigrants as quote simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion, yet another reason to send them back. He ends by writing that his views, quote, predate Trump, though the president has repeatedly referred to Hispanic immigration as, quote, an invasion of our country. And at a May rally in Florida, he asked, how do you stop these people?

You can't. A member of the crowd yelled back, shoot them. And when the audience cheered, Trump smiled and said, only in the panhandle can you get away with that statement. So my first thought was, does it really matter whether this domestic terrorist was radicalized before or after Trump became president? I just think like it's, I don't know why we're believing this little head fake in this kid's manifesto. He was 21. He's 21 now when he shot up this Walmart. Donald Trump announced for president four years ago.

So he has spent his formative years from 16 or 17 to 21 hearing Donald Trump and hearing his rhetoric, starting with Mexicans being rapists and all that has followed. So, of course, Donald Trump was part of the process that radicalized this kid. You know, I just I think we're being it's worth asking the question, but I just think it's it's self-evident. But I just think it's self-evident. I also think even if he wasn't, even if he's on the off chance that he's telling the truth about this, the president's, this shooting shows, Christchurch shows, Pittsburgh, Poway, California, all of them, that the president's language. It's the language that Tucker Carlson uses on Fox News, that Laura Ingraham uses on Fox News, that all kinds of fucking buffoons on that network use, that is spread throughout 8chan and 4chan and all these fucking online platforms. I mean, this is a bigger deal, right? Right, yeah.

I mean, look, one, this is this is the this is the challenge of describing, you know, what people call stochastic terrorism. The you know, if. When Donald Trump, when Tucker Carlson, when Laura Ingraham say what they say, when advertisers pay to promulgate what those people say, it reaches a lot of people. pay to promulgate what those people say, it reaches a lot of people. And when it reaches a lot of people, it causes some of them to take it seriously, and it takes some of them to take it to its logical conclusion. All of this rhetoric is added to the extremist foment. It's added to the, it feeds the discussions that take place in the, you in the dark corners of the internet. It feeds what you see on Twitter. It feeds into the minds of damaged and troubled people who take it literally. So whether or not this one person had this idea beforehand and was galvanized by what Trump and others have been saying, or whether Trump is the person who planted the first seed is really beside the point.

What we have is a system that is pumping out really dangerous information. And when it reaches certain people, they are willing to use it as a justification for their desire to kill people, to kill themselves by killing other people, to take their vengeance and violent fantasies public in a very real way. So I'm not really interested in the exact trajectory of the kind of white supremacist extremist ideology that managed to get into this one person's brain. I think it's probably also useful to talk about what this ideology is. I mean, you know, we've said this before, too, and everyone says, oh, it's about immigration, it's about immigration. It's really not about immigration. There is a debate to be had over immigration, a legitimate debate in this country about how we secure our borders, how much immigration is the right amount of immigration, and how we fix our immigration system so that we have orderly legal immigration in this country. Right. There's a fine debate about that.

This is not Trump's problem. This is not Stephen Miller's problem. This is not Tucker Carlson or Laura Ingraham's problem. They're talking about black and brown immigration. That's their problem. They're talking about ethnic cleansing or purity. Right. Trump has talked about wanting more immigrants from Nordic countries, white immigrants in this country. He's not upset about that kind of immigration.

I found that quote, this is a problem with all of this, is that Trump says so many heinous things all the time that it's just, you know, they all get memory hold and we forget about them. But remember in July of 2018, when he was over in London and he gave an interview to, I think it was The Sun in the UK, and he said about immigration, I think you are losing your culture. I think it's changing the culture. I think it's a very negative thing for Europe.

And I know it's not politically correct to say that, but I'll say it and I'll say it out loud. And this was about refugees from Syria and immigrants and migration in Europe. It's about losing your culture. Yeah, it's about white supremacy. I mean, I'm glad we're talking about 8chan and the Daily Stormer and some of the darker corners

of the internet, because if you go to those places and you see what's talked about, it's open calls to incite violence. It's posting this video repeatedly in an effort to get people to take copycat action, so it's good that that stuff is coming down. But you don't need 8chan to hear hardcore white nationalist rhetoric. You can read the tweets from the president of the United States. I mean, he retweeted an account

called White Genocide. He retweeted that. That's what the great replacement theory is. You can watch Tucker Carlson or Laura Ingraham or Tommy Lahren. And they say that immigrants are replacing white people. They say immigration is destroying America And they say that immigrants are replacing white people. They say immigration is destroying America. They say that we're being invaded. And so the way they launder it through politics is they say that Democrats want these things to happen because it will benefit us politically once we make all these new black and brown voters citizens so they can vote for Democrats.

But, like like it is it is disgraceful and it happens all the time and and it's not you know like when you when you you'll watch these fox and friends hosts even the people that get treated like they're normal like abby huntsman or or ed henry they'll sit there and they'll listen and they'll nod as you know tommy larin will say that immigrants are coming to replace us and destroy our nation it i don't know how you can work in these places in good conscience and and not speak up and say something i was going to say i mean donald trump is a buffoon he's a racist buffoon but he's a buffoon and the people that are writing the script for him

for him to say these things and tweet these things are the primetime hosts at Fox News. That is his source of information. It's not the presidential daily briefing. It's not his policy advisors. It is the primetime lineup of Fox News and fucking Fox and Friends. And I don't know how, like, the Murdochs can go anywhere without being protested. I don't know why there's not protests outside of Fox News at all. I realize there was a legitimate debate at some point. Do the Democrats go on

Fox News? Do this? I don't know how any Democrat anywhere or any person, any American can support that network at this point. And the dance that the Republican Party tries to do is they just go up right to that edge of what's acceptable. And but so here's a good example. So this guy named Paul Nalen, who was running for Congress against Paul Ryan in Wisconsin. And Breitbart was all out in support of him. Steve Bannon, I believe, had endorsed him. They ultimately had to disavow Paul Nalen because it became clear that he was a straight up Nazi. Like I think some direct messages came out.

That guy was literally cheering what happened in El Paso. I mean, that's how sick these people are. They're making, they're on like Telegram now or Discord or some other type of servers. But like those people were part of the Breitbart alt-right movement very recently. Yeah. I mean, Tommy, you were in the NSC at National Security Council in the White House. How would the response to the shooting be different if the terrorists had been Muslim or immigrants? I think the National Guard would be in the streets patrolling.

And how would the FBI and DOJ handle it? Isn't there just a different way that we treat terrorism that way? After 9-11, all the resources of the government swung towards Islamic extremism and preventing al-Qaeda attacks and terrorism. I think that if this were a bunch of ISIS recruits, that's what you would see right now. Yeah. I mean, you know, Chris Wray, the FBI director, said recently white supremacist terrorism is now the number one domestic threat in America. He said the FBI has recorded about 100 domestic terrorism arrests in 2019, most of them involving ties to white supremacy. For the first

time, the FBI has also identified fringe conspiracy theories as a risk factor for domestic terrorism, including QAnon. Tommy, you've been talking about this. QAnon, who are now showing up at Trump rallies. There was a cop on Mike Pence's detail who was wearing a QAnon patch. Jesus Christ.

That's how weird this is. So Ray has said all that, which is good. I'm glad that he's acknowledging that. But, you know, he also said the Bureau doesn't investigate ideology no matter how repugnant we investigate violence. I mean, I think Brian Boitler tweeted this yesterday, but he's like, I think the Democratic candidate should go out there and say, if Chris Wray does not make progress on shifting the FBI's resources so that we're actually going after white nationalist terrorism, then the Democratic candidate should say, I'll replace him as FBI director if I'm president. I mean, it seems

like this is an emergency for law enforcement. Right. Yeah. I mean, the ideology is becoming more dangerous because it is backed by the president. It is backed indirectly and sometimes directly by Republicans in Congress. It has a massive corporate finance propaganda apparatus. And it has had outlets online that were unwilling to shut down the most extreme conversations and forums for people to foment extremist white nationalist views, popularize the motivations of mass murderers, and show to others who might consider doing these kinds of things that there is a community that will celebrate them in their deaths.

So, you know, it's a hard conversation because, you know, we have to fight white supremacy. We have to fight white nationalism. We have to fight it even if it is not causing mass shootings across the country, because it is distorting and hurting our country and society and politics in countless ways all the time. It is the way in which Donald Trump and those who support him maintain power because their policies actually don't help people. So they turn issues into matters of identity and they stoke fear and hate in people in an effort to hold on to power. That would be true even if it wasn't now causing there to be mass shootings. about Al-Qaeda or ISIS in this country because the people that are committing these acts

are already here, right? We're not going to be able to catch them coming to America or catch them traveling to Syria or Afghanistan or Pakistan and going to some training camp. So that ability to disrupt the plot is gone. They've already figured out an effective tactic. You don't need to learn how to fly a jumbo jet

and crash into a building. You need an AR-15 don't need to learn how to fly a jumbo jet and crash into a building. You need an AR-15 and you need to walk into a mall and you can commit a horrific act of terror. So like the good news is what's needed is not drone strikes or some foreign policy initiative. You need effective policing in communities. You need to work with people who know folks like this shooter or follow them online and get a tip that this is happening before it becomes an act in real life. I mean, so like that's that's the good news. But it's we are a long way away from effectively managing the problem. And the president of the United States is making it incredibly difficult because he's part of that problem.

I think one of the most chilling things I read over the weekend is a story in The Washington Post about this. And there was a former FBI agent who said there's some reluctance among agents to bring forth an investigation that targets what the president perceives as his base. It's a no one situation for the FBI agent or supervisor. Horrifying. And this is sort of where you know, the Mueller Russia drama really starts mattering to people's lives and becomes very dangerous because you know, Trump tweeting about oh, I hate the FBI and their deep state and all this bullshit, right? Like you can all laugh

about it on Twitter sometimes, but this now we have FBI agents who because the president has targeted law enforcement and criticized law enforcement and accused them of treason and all kinds of other things and a deep state plot and coups and all that, they don't want to now – they're afraid to investigate white nationalism because they think it's the president's base. And are they that wrong? Well, and you also remember when the Obama administration tried to point out that there was a rising threat posed by white nationalist groups. They were chastised for politicizing investigations of terror, for even having the audacity to suggest that there had been evidence of a rise in right-wing extremism with the potential for

right-wing violence. Yeah. So I want to talk about the Republican reaction to all this and Trump's reaction. You know, the first one out of the box from the administration was Mick Mulvaney. He was on Meet the Press over the weekend. He compared the El Paso terrorists to the Bernie Sanders supporter who shot Congressman Steve Scalise, saying, quote, was Bernie Sanders responsible for when my friends got shot playing baseball? I don't think so. I bring that up because that is the most common online refrain from the, as you call them, the intellectual Zambonis. Some of the the conservatives who were don't really like Trump, but want to defend him. And they say, oh, there's you know, how are you making this political? Right.

There's Bernie Sanders supporters that you people just so everyone knows why is this different? So I would say two things about this. One, it is different in the sense that Donald Trump is actively promoting the ideology that is causing extremists to latch onto it and use it as a reason to cause murder. It is not simply someone that is identifying with Donald Trump. It is someone who is using his logic, his rhetoric and his worldview as a justification for murder. It is not simply someone that is identifying with Donald Trump. It is someone who is using his logic, his rhetoric, and his worldview as a justification for murder, one Donald Trump has winked at through the entirety of his presidency. That's the first thing I'd say. The second thing I'd say is, okay, you know what? We'll take you at your word. There is a massive white supremacist violence crisis in this country. But you're right. You're right. Mass shooters will latch onto a bunch of different ideologies, right?

What does bring them together? What does the research say brings them together? It's one, finding communities online that encourage them to kill. It's two, having trauma and crisis in their lives. But three, it is access to weapons. So if you're going to come at us and say, we can't point to white supremacy, then great. We'll go to the only other thing that could possibly make a difference, which is taking these weapons away from people who want to kill each other. Yeah, I think also, like, Donald Trump's

out there talking about an invasion of immigrants calling them rapists and criminals and all kinds of other stuff. Bernie Sanders' righteous anger stops at higher marginal tax rates for billionaires. Like, give me the fucking break. You're not, like, taking a gun somewhere because of Medicare for All.

Right. I mean, this is just... It's such a bad faith. I know. It's all over the place. These people, it is so despicable to deflect and spin like that in the face of what we just saw this weekend.

I don't know how you live with yourself making these kind of bullshit bad faith arguments. I truly don't. Well, so let's talk about Trump himself after sending a few condolence tweets while hunkering down at his golf course over this weekend. Trump proposed some kind of background check legislation paired with immigration restrictions in a series of tweets this morning, where he also blamed the media in language that echoed the terrorist manifesto. He then delivered short remarks that sounded like he was reading a hostage statement where he did in fact condemn racism and white supremacy, but then blamed video games

and mental health issues for the violence, saying, quote, mental illness pulled the trigger, not the gun. That is... The video game thing was said by a number of Republican politicians over the weekend, including House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick.

Trump ended his speech this morning by saying, may God bless the memory of those who perished in Toledo. You know, can I just can I take a couple of these? OK, let's let's first start with video games. You know, hey, do we have video games in other countries? Yeah, there's turns out we do. There's quite popular shootings there. There's no proven link between video games in other countries? Yeah, turns out we do. Quite popular. We don't have mass shootings there. There's no proven link between video games and violence. As Tommy said, there are video games in other countries that manage to avoid these kinds of crimes. Also, there's actually, it's just a myth.

It's a pure myth. In fact, there was a study in 2015 that found that when a violent video game, a popular video game is released, violent crime actually is correlated in a reduction. They don't know why. It could be that people stay home and play video games instead of going out and committing crimes. It could be that it's cathartic. They don't know, but the research does not find any link and find the facts the opposite. Now, on this

matter of, first of all, I have a quote, mental illness pulls the trigger, not the gun. First of all, it doesn't matter. It's beside the point. That is insanely terrible right. Just deal with that. The gun's beside the point. That is insanely terrible writing. Just deal with that. The sentence doesn't make sense. What are you talking about?

But just take it on its... Forget the writing. It's not true. There is a lot of evidence and a lot of studies that have found again and again that the mere presence of a weapon increases aggression. It's called the weapons effect. The finger pulls the trigger, but the trigger pulls the finger too. That has been shown again and again and again. It is an NRA talking point and it is just not true. It's also, I mean, a few facts about this.

People with mental health issues are more likely to be victims of crimes than perpetrators. If Trump suddenly had this change of heart about mental health issues, well, he repealed a gun regulation early on in his term that was put in place by Barack Obama that prevents certain individuals with mental health conditions from buying firearms. Repealed that. And he also spends every day trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act, which provides coverage for people with mental health issues.

So the idea that he suddenly pretends that he gives a shit about mental health issues is bullshit. And also, by the way, we should not skip So the idea that he suddenly pretends that he gives a shit about mental health issues is bullshit. And also, by the way, we should not skip over the fact that in the middle of that, he also talked about involuntary confinement for people with mental health issues who might be a threat. So, not willing to take the fucking guns away, but he wants to imprison

the people against their will who have mental health issues. He is prioritizing the Second Amendment above life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for individuals. I mean, so there's a 2015 study that estimated only 4% of American gun deaths could be attributed to mental health issues. So it's a total red herring. It's also notable that the gun used in El Paso is designed to kill people as efficiently and brutally as possible. The manifesto talked about why he chose that gun. In Dayton, this guy used a 100-round drum magazine.

It looks like one of those old Tommy guns from the 20s. I saw a photo of this thing. I can't understand how something like that is sold to civilians in the United States. No one needs 100 rounds unless you're going against an army or shooting up a huge group of people. It's insane. Yeah. Should should we be heartened by the fact that Ted Cruz and a

few other Republicans, you know, were out there calling this white supremacism and domestic terror? Or is this just OK? Well, then what the fuck are you going to do about it? I'm not particularly I'm not particularly heartened by it. I mean, I suppose it's better than them not saying that. But of course, simply saying that is literally the absolute least that you can do. You need to follow that to its logical conclusion. You need to identify it and call it out. You need to call out Donald Trump by name. HN may have briefly lost its hosting services, but HN is still hosted in the White House. And so if you're going to say that we have a white supremacist problem, it's not a crime without criminals. It's not a sin without sinners. Donald Trump is the global head of a white

nationalist movement that has gained traction because of what he spews every single day. Ted Cruz knows that because he used to say it. And by the way, this goes back to the famous Andrew Gillum line in the debate, right? The Christchurch shooter in his manifesto said that he sees Donald Trump as a renewed symbol of white identity in the world, right? So it's like, the racists know he's a racist. They call him that. David Duke has been saying it for years. I mean, look, what Ted Cruz's statement tells me

is that he's not the worst politician in Texas because Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick blamed violent video games. John Cornyn, who is a senior leader in the Senate and is up for reelection in 2020, he recently tweeted his concern about the rapid growth of his state's Hispanic population, which is racist and disgusting in any context, but particularly fucked up now. But on Sunday, he tweeted, quote, focusing on law abiding citizens, exercising their constitutional rights, solve nothing.

We need to treat these crimes as problems to be solved rather than one be exploited for partisan political gain. problems to be solved rather than one be exploited for partisan political gain. So he is going back to the same infuriating, we can't do anything to get guns off the streets line and nothing's going to get solved with people like that. Literally the only, as far as I've seen, elected Republican in the country who handled this correctly is a guy by the name of State Senator John McAllister of Nebraska, who decided to tweet over the weekend, a long thread, you should read the whole thing, but it starts with, the Republican Party is enabling white supremacy in our country. As a lifelong Republican, it pains me to say this, but it's the truth.

And you wonder, why can't more Republicans say that? You know, I mean, like Will Hurd was talking, you know, who just retired instead of running again. And, you know, it's another bit of news that the only black Republican in the House decided to retire. And I think he called out divisive language and stuff like that. But I think the only good comment from a Republican now is, like McAllister said, is acknowledging that your party is enabling this right now because of naive hope that as an older generation exited the political scene and in a younger generation took more power in the voting booths that we would become more welcoming and open to diversity as a country. And now I think I'm realizing that that is a totally naive belief because every generation learns from media and culture and things can get worse.

I mean, if you look at the South after reconstruction and the impact of propaganda, like birth of a nation. Right. So that's why rhetoric from the White House is so, so dangerous. These are kids that are doing this. Radicalizing a 16 year old. Yeah, I also I actually think the failure is deeper, too. Yes, they are. They are. So I feel like they're failing. They're failing in three ways. They're failing on this matter of confronting white nationalism and the damage it is doing every single day, including in guns are causing these mass shootings and certainly causing them to be vastly more deadly. And then third, they are failing on this question about

what's causing mass shootings, right? I mean, these are distinct crises that are happening all at once. We have a gun crisis. There was, I believe, there were dozens of people shot in Chicago over the weekend while this was going on. There is a gun crisis that connects mass shooting, suicides, and whatever, quotidian murder. And then there is this question of what is happening to young men. And they're failing on that question, too. And that adds to the massive failure that they are showing every single day to confront the racism in the world. Well, so let's get to the gun problem. Let's talk about what we can do about all these guns.

The House passed gun safety legislation back in February that has been sitting in the Senate for months without any action taken by Mitch McConnell. Democrats are now calling on McConnell, who apparently is home in Kentucky with a broken shoulder, to bring senators back to D.C. from their August recesses for an emergency session to consider the background check legislation. No Senate votes are currently scheduled until September. Also, last night, the Murdoch-owned New York Post came out for a ban on assault weapons, which is somewhat surprising. Is it worth pushing McConnell to take up the House bill? What should be happening right now? Yes.

Yes. Because we are only able to focus on things politically for a few days at a time, and we should focus maximum attention on this issue and the fact that the House has passed some legislation that would help. I mean, I'd like to see them go a lot farther. I would like to see reinstating the assault weapons ban, a gun buyback program. There's no reason these high-capacity magazines should ever be sold. We should have universal background checks. We could raise the age where you can buy a gun from 18 to 21. And then maybe a law that says you can't own a gun if you're convicted of domestic violence. These are all things that I think would help us make progress.

And I think gun licensing, too, I would add to the Cory Booker's proposal. And we should, but like we have to focus the nation's attention on the problem and the solutions at the same time. Or else we're all just going to feel like nihilistic. Yeah. I mean, look, I also saw some people, David Plouffe said this on Twitter, but he was saying, you know, the House, I know the House already passed the legislation, but go back in session, bring the House back in session, make a big show of it on the floor. I mean, and, you know, I saw that House Democrats don't necessarily want to do that because they want to make sure the focus is on the Senate and whatever. You can think yourself into circles through this.

Just pass the bill. Well, Democrats need to understand, and I think this is our problem with impeachment too, right, that 90 percent of this is performance here, is taking a moment like this and showing up and saying, I'm going to fucking fight. Even if you know there's not a path. and showing up and saying, I'm going to fucking fight. Even if you know there's not a path. Do we think that there's a world where Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump are going to sign on to gun safety legislation? Probably not. But fucking fight.

Show that you're fighting. Do some things that seem out of the ordinary. If you think this is a national crisis, act like this is a national crisis. Bring the House back. Protest outside Senate offices. Do it all. And do it at a moment when we see Republicans believing that they have a political problem. They are a group of people. Donald Trump talked about gun safety legislation today. Donald Trump repeatedly over the past few months specifically has accidentally said he was for various kinds of gun control before apparently

being told behind the scenes that that was not palatable to the people uh who support him so in in congress so there is a they recognize that they have a political problem on their hands they don't like the political position that they are in on guns this is this is a moment to to push them even if it may not ultimately lead to passing of a bill. This is a moment to move the issue forward. We have seen a few moments where that has happened. It happened after Parkland, and it seems as though it could happen now that we could move the issue forward. Make these senators take the votes or at least put the pressure on them. Cory Gardner is up, a senator from Colorado in 2020.

Colorado has very strict gun laws. Cory Gardner does not want to take a vote against gun safety legislation when he's up in 2020. Susan Collins is up in 2020. Make her take the vote, right? There are senators up. There's places that we can apply pressure right now. Yeah. Look, I was very dark and depressed this weekend, and it is easy to feel like we've been through this before and nothing will change.

But if we approach the problem with that mentality, we're guaranteeing it. The country as a whole supports these policies. The problem is gerrymandered districts, a Senate that's messed up, and terrible Republican senators. We need to put maximum political pressure on them. And we all have agency in this fight. We all can call members of Congress, donate money to organizations, raise awareness about Senate candidates. We have to start fighting for this stuff. Yeah. And the fight is not futile here. I mean, you know, Shannon Watts of Moms Demand Action always reminds us, you know, gun control advocates have had a lot of victories on state level,

local level over the last two years. They've not only stopped a lot of victories on state level, local level over the last two years. They've not only stopped a lot of really bad bills from becoming law, like concealed carry shit, but they've also passed gun safety laws in states all across the country. The problem is at the federal level. And it starts with getting Donald Trump out of office, and then it goes to flipping the Senate. And, you know, go to votesaveamerica.com slash getmitch. As Brian Schatz says in Hawaii, you know, adopt a Senate race. That's your favorite race. Colorado, Arizona, Maine, those are the big three. Help Doug Jones, Stanoffs in Alabama, hopefully North Carolina and Iowa,

and then maybe Texas and Georgia. Those are the states that people should be focusing on right now. So I want to end by talking about the response from the Democratic presidential candidates and how these incidents should factor into the campaign. Most, if not all, the candidates tied the shootings to Trump's rhetoric while calling for gun control. Beto O'Rourke, who I'm going to be talking to in a second, traveled back to his hometown in El Paso and said that he believes Trump is a white nationalist. Pete Buttigieg said, quote, at best, he's condoning and encouraging white nationalism. Cory Booker said Donald Trump is responsible for this because he's stoking fears and hatred and bigotry. Kamala Harris said he's emboldening white nationalism. Elizabeth Warren said we need to call out white nationalism for what it is, domestic terrorism.

And Joe Biden tweeted, we can't fix a problem if we refuse to name it white nationalism. What did you guys think of the responses from the Democratic candidates? Are they meeting this moment? I think so. I mean, I think that there was a sense in Washington that it was uncivil maybe to blame politicians in the wake of these sorts of incidents. And I'm glad we have done away with that absurd belief. I mean, it's time to call out what Trump is doing. It's time to state as fact that he is a white nationalist and that he is inciting people like this individual who shot up the Walmart in El Paso to take action. And so good for them. Call them out. Like, these are facts,

and we need to make an argument and convince people because that is part of how we're going to beat them. Yeah. Our friend Cornell Belcher, who was one of President Obama's pollsters, tweeted this over the weekend. 2020 election shouldn't be about health care. It must be about the heart and soul of this country,

who we are as a people morally, and who we want to be going forward. All the Democratic candidates must get bigger in this moment, not narrower. The candidate with the biggest moral vision wins. What do you think about that advice? I think it is valuable in this moment to recognize the scale of the crisis that we are in as a country. And it is always a good reminder that when presidential candidates go big, It is always a good reminder that when presidential candidates go big, when they speak to the broad, grand challenge facing the country and their vision of how we can actually meet it, it tends to be what we respond to as leadership.

It's what we see as someone rising to the occasion. You know, I am glad that they are calling out white nationalism in the president. I am glad that they are doing that. I do believe it is both the right thing to do. It is also clearly what their politics dictate that they should do. But I do view there is a kind of deeper crisis that is hard to talk about in these moments. You know, we're talking about what happened in El Paso. We don't know the motivation of what happened in Dayton, right? So we have these competing and overlapping enormous crises in front of us. One of them is white nationalism. One of them is the availability, the accessibility of weapons of mass destruction, where people can kill dozens of people in a few moments. But there is this other virus in our culture, which is a poisonous idea that has grabbed

hold in the minds of young men, that is spread online, that is spread through sensationalistic media coverage, that has taught boys and men that they can go out in a blaze of glory. And we need to speak to that crisis. And it is in some ways independent from white nationalism and in some ways independent from the gun crisis. When they look at the research over the last decades of mass shootings that have erupted in this country, these are people that have experienced trauma in their lives. They are people at an identifiable crisis point in their lives. And these are people who have studied the motivations and sought validations based on

what other mass shooters have done. That is an area that we need to be talking about more because it speaks to a deeper turmoil in our society. So I agree. So when we talk about going big, it's not just about talking about Trump. It's about talking about these larger forces that are playing out every single day. Yeah. And look, I got to be honest, I don't know if it's a deeper moral problem in our society or if it's there was one mass shooting and a bunch of kids saw it and now they're just copycatting it forever, which to me speaks to why we need to move quickly

to get these fucking guns out of their hands. Because if these kids don't have access to AR-15s and 100-round magazines, this doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. I mean, I saw that from Cornell, and I started thinking about sort of the feeling that we had after the last Democratic primary debate. You know, and it was a feeling that maybe these were arguing over issues. Everything seems very small, and there's this very much larger looming threat out there.

And there's this very much larger looming threat out there. And, you know, we saw this when Trump told those four congresswomen to go back home. And then he attacked Elijah Cummings. And every time this happens, you get some group of Democratic strategists and pundits who say, OK, but he wants the race to be about race and immigration and white identity. And we need to pivot to talk about economic issues. And I'll be honest, as long as I've been in politics, I understand the value of trying to build a winning coalition that is a majority by focusing on a lot of these economic issues, because that's how you build a bigger coalition. There's a reason Elizabeth Warren's wealth tax polls at 70% and even has a majority of Republicans who coalition. There's a reason Elizabeth Warren's wealth tax polls at 70 percent and even has a majority of Republicans who agree.

There's a reason that in 2018 Democrats could win because they focused on health care, because the affordable care act was so popular and taking away preexisting conditions was something that was unpopular even with Republicans. It is tempting to look at the polls, to look at the data and to hear from people who are struggling and to make this whole thing about economic issues but that is not the fight that we're facing right now fundamentally yes we're facing like deep economic inequality and that plays into a lot of the stuff that we're talking about as well but because donald trump is president we are faced with a different kind of existential crisis in this country, and it is a threat to the existence of our democracy itself. And so I do think, like, whether or not it's the politically popular fight to have, it's the fight that we need to wage at this point. I really believe it. I mean, I just, I would.

And I've never been someone who thought that, you know, I just. Yeah. someone who thought that, you know, I just, yeah. I also do think one, one facet of how these, as these mass shootings unfold that I think is tied into this larger question of our democracy is there's a real sense of powerlessness. You see this happening and you think I'm voting for the people that they're going to try to stop it. And these Republicans are able to, in part by fomenting racism itself, maintain the power that allows them to stop the laws that might keep the guns out of the hands doing these very murders. It is heartbreaking and exhausting. And so just the other thing I think we do need to keep in mind is it is not inevitable that mass shootings happen week after week after week.

There is research that has looked at what is causing this. week after week. There is research that has looked at what is causing this. We can tackle each of the causes and reduce the frequency of mass violence in this country. It is a genuinely solvable crisis. And I think sometimes I want presidential candidates to say that as well, to not just attack Trump, as important that is, not even just to speak to the crisis of white nationalism, but say to Americans that feel heartbroken and hopeless that like we can solve this. Yeah. When it comes to the gun issue, it's definitely not a Trump problem. It's a Republican party. That's right. Right. I mean, there was a there was a moment in the White House when we were all there where there was a military exercise going on called Jade Helm. And it led to these sort of paranoid fever dreams that the military was going to invade

texas and like i guess take people's guns away or do whatever people think is going to happen in these paranoid fever dreams and the republican governor of texas uh gave credence to these insane conspiracy theories and and that kind of political cowardice and the inability to stand up to a bunch of base voters in your own state and say, of course, the fucking federal government is going to evade you. Of course, the U.S. military isn't here to invade your community. You don't have to stockpile guns and become your own mini militia to prevent against this thing. That is a massive failing on the part of the Republican Party, in part because they're working in concert

with a bunch of gun manufacturers who know that the reason they make money is because one guy buys 25 guns, not because 25 people buy one gun. So they need to fix that shit. Look, I mean, last thing I'll say, and then we can, and then we'll go to the Beto interview, but you know, the way things go, this will sadly fade from the headlines in a couple weeks. But people should remember, like, how you feel right now. And inevitably, when there's another round of Democratic infighting, or the next primary debate, and everyone's upset, and everyone's yelling at each other on Twitter about something fucking stupid, you know, and everyone's upset and everyone's yelling at each other on Twitter about something fucking stupid, you know.

What happens in this election in 2020 matters so much. So much. You know, and I think everyone's got to just like keep the anger that you have today, the frustration you have today, like come back to that in the days and months ahead because it's going to be a long time between now and November 2020. And just remember that and make sure that that helps you get off the couch, make the phone calls, knock on doors because we have to win. Donate money to a candidate today to express your rage. Yeah. That's what I'm going to do.

Yeah. And go knock on some doors and go down to a candidate's headquarters. Get involved. It'll make you feel better. Okay. When we come back, my interview with Congressman Beto O'Rourke. On the pod today, former congressman and current Democratic presidential candidate Beto O'Rourke. Beto, how are you doing and how's El Paso doing right now? I know you met some victims' family members on your flight back and then went to the hospital with them over the

weekend. Yeah, just really amazing, extraordinarily strong people. These are people who have been shot in the chest, shot in the stomach, shot multiple times. These are people whose family members were also shot. These are people who are coming through even though they've lost somebody in their life. And it's just amazing to me that they have survived. Just so powerful to see everyone who is helping them to come through. These doctors and nurses and first responders, this entire community coming together. There are literally lines around the block to donate blood.

Folks who've been waiting in those lines for days just in order to be able to help in some way. This beautiful vigil that was held last night in El Paso, thousands of people coming out from all walks of life, every tradition of faith from Ciudad Juarez, our sister city, from El Paso, Texas. We believe of the 21 who have died, seven were Mexican nationals, like all of us in this community, doing their back-to-school shopping, in this case at Walmart on the east side. But there's just so much love, so much encouragement, so much strength, much love, so much encouragement, so much strength, so much power in this community right now. And just a reminder of who we are at our best. I hate that it has to come in the face of who this country can be at its worst in that killer from North Texas who came to this community to do this. But I just want you to know and I want your listeners to know El Paso is strong, as strong as we have ever been.

And I've never been more proud of this town. Well, that's very, very good to hear. You've been speaking out against Trump's racism and xenophobia for a long time now. But in all the time I've known you, I don't think I've ever heard the anger and disgust in your voice that I heard last night. How has being part of a community that was the target of this terrorist attack changed your perspective on what's at stake right now? You know, probably going back seven or eight years when Donald Trump was questioning whether Barack Obama was born in the United States and was in this country as rapists and criminals, even though they commit crimes at a far lower rate than anyone does in this country. The knowledge that on the day that he signed an executive order attempting to ban Muslim travel to the United

States of America, the mosque in Victoria, Texas was burned to the ground. The kids that I meet here in El Paso, Mexican-American kids who ask me, why does my president hate me? Children I've met who are Muslims throughout this country who are asking their parents the same thing. On Saturday in El Paso, the direct connection in the killer's manifesto to exactly what President Trump has been saying, warning them. The practices of this administration, keeping kids in cages, losing the lives of seven children in our custody. For this to come through in the way that it did on Saturday, someone so filled with this rage that the president and others have riled up. with this rage that the president and others have riled up. And to see him focused on killing those who are different because he thinks they are dangerous based on that difference,

because he's been made to believe that by people who want him to believe that, who want you and I and everyone in this country to believe that. It has never been more clear, more urgent. It's never been more dangerous than it is right now. And it's also never been more obvious that all of us, regardless of any difference between us, party, geography, or otherwise, have to stand up against this. And if you do not, and if you ask yourself or ask others, is the president racist? Does he have a role in this? How could this have happened?

Then you as well are complicit in what is taking place. This defines us. And our response has to be not just standing up against all of this hatred, but standing up for who we are at our best. And John, for me, that's El Paso. This is a city that is defined by its connection with Mexico. The fact that at least a quarter of those with whom we live were born in another country and chose us, and by their very presence have made us better. We're one of the safest cities in the United States of America,

and we're safe because of the Mexican-Americans and immigrants from the world over who call El Paso home. And I've got to say this one more thing. because of the Mexican Americans and immigrants from the world over who call El Paso home. And I've got to say this one more thing. This is a city in some years will have five or 10 or 15 murders a year. In fact, over the last 10 years, we average about 18 murders a year in a city of 700,000 in a metro area of about a million people, 21 lives taken in just one day on Saturday. So though we have borne the brunt of this hatred and this fear, we also, I think, hold

the answer to the direction that this country should take going forward. And that's what I'm seeing in the way that El Paso meets this tragedy. Why do you think a lot of members of the media are afraid or reluctant to acknowledge Trump's racism? You know, even this morning, a reporter said after Trump's remarks where he fucking named the wrong city in Ohio, quote, he really did set a different tone than he did in the past when it comes to condemning this hate. Like, what do you think is going on there? I honestly don't know. And I am so beyond frustrated at this point. And I'm very open to anyone who has a better answer to this one than I do.

But when in the history of Western democracies has the leader of a country described a people based on their religion as inherently defective or dangerous and sought to keep them out or eject them from the country? When has somebody described people in the same terms that you would describe a cockroach or an insect or an animal? And not to do it behind closed doors, but to do it publicly and to rile people up. And, you know, no analogy is perfect, but that Greenville rally in North Carolina, those chants of send her back were absolutely chilling. And I may not have the field of reference necessary to find something better to connect it to. But that's Nuremberg to me. That is a leader reveling in the hatred and the racism of the people that he

purports to serve and to lead. Sending U.S. troops to a community like mine, again, reminder, one of the safest places to make you afraid of people who are coming here at their most desperate, their most vulnerable moment. They've just survived a 2,000 mile journey. Many of them are kids who don't have their parents anymore, who've traveled this on their own. And to be met by troops, to be met by cages, to be met by a wall, to be met not just with indifference, but outright cruelty and hatred and torture. That defines not just Trump. It defines all of us and those members of the media if we do not do something about it.

So no more questions about do you think the president is racist? Do you think the president had a role in these killings? Or it looks like the president's trying to set a different tone. Or, Beto, what would you say to the president? Or what do you want the president had had a role in these killings or looks like the president's trying to to set a different tone or beth though what would you say to the president or what do you want the president to do now he's past the point uh after which you just can't get this back um with donald trump or under this administration um this now is on all of us we're long past donald trump being able to do anything different. We can pile all the shame we want to on him, but that shame accrues to us every minute, every day, after which we don't do something about it. That's where we are right now. So you've said that this goes

beyond Donald Trump and the next president is still going to have to deal with Fox News, is still going to have to deal with online platforms that are radicalizing people, especially young white men. How do you even begin to stop that? What do we do about this as a country? I keep coming back to El Paso, just because it's what I know. It's where I was born, where we're raising our kids right now. I just have never met a kinder people who, I just have never met a kinder people who, and you and I have talked about this, we don't just tolerate each other. We get that our differences make us stronger. And literally, you know, physically, everyone's embracing one another, embracing those differences right now. This vigil last night, this interfaith vigil was one of the most beautiful, one of the most powerful things that I have ever seen. And words will fail me right now, but that ability for a leader

to set the tone and reflect the absolute best in us. And if there is an open question about whether someone or some group or some people pose a threat, resoundingly, definingly answering that question to remind us all that this is really the exception in world history and on the face of the planet that we willingly chose to define ourselves not by race, not by ethnicity, not by common ancestry, not by any difference, but by the fact that we were all created equal. And I know that we have never fully lived up to that. But this is a defining moment. This is where we choose whether we were going to continue to pursue that or whether we give up on the idea altogether,

which is really what Donald Trump is proposing right now. So it's a great question. I can only come back to El Paso and what I see here and the way in which I want to reflect that. And as you probably know, I try to do that everywhere I go in the country. Almost every talk that I give, every town hall, I begin with where I'm from and why I find it to be so beautiful and why I think it is so important right now at a time that this country's never been more divided or more polarized. But we also have to hold people to account. Those members of Congress who do not call this out, those public officials who want to pat on the back for saying the phrase white nationalist terrorism, but then not connecting white nationalist terrorism to Donald Trump and to Fox News and to

those commentators who are warning of invasions and infestations and trying to stoke the fear that has found a home in these killers. They're part of this problem. And we have to hold them accountable for that. And I'm actually, I don't know, this is my feeling just based on everything that I've seen and heard and felt after what has happened in El Paso on Saturday. I think we're going to come through as a country. This will define us, but as we have in other defining moments, we're going to come through. I really believe that. I hope so. Two quick questions on gun control. You've proposed background checks and banning assault weapons. You've been campaigning on that for a long time since the Senate race. You know, a lot of studies show, and studies are all over the place, but most of the

studies show that while those measures would absolutely save lives, the most effective gun control measures have been gun licenses and mandatory buyback programs like they did in Australia. Would you be open to those proposals as president? Yes, and I'm open to them right now as a candidate. Absolutely has to be part of the conversation. And if at the end of the day it's going to save lives, if it's going to prevent the kind of tragedies that we saw in El Paso or Gilroy or Dayton or this weekend in Chicago or all over this country on a daily basis, then let's move forward and do it.

I know that when we define the right thing, the goal, we will find the political will to get there. And I know it's not easy. the goal. We will find the political will to get there. And I know it's not easy. And listen, I come from Texas and this is a very proud gun owning state. But I know from listening to people in Texas, gun owners, Republicans, non-gun owners, Democrats, independents, everyone, people want to make sure that their kids are okay, that their families are safe, that their children don't fear the future or going to school or being at a concert or going to Walmart on a Saturday morning. So yeah, absolutely. And I got to tell you, I'm really grateful for those members of Congress, those candidates, Those members of Congress, those candidates, those people who are leading on this issue.

I think about the moms, the moms who demand action. I've met them all over Texas, all over this country. So many of whom have lost a child and in the face of that are going to do everything they can to make sure that no other mother feels what they do. Yesterday in El Paso, we got to see the family of Joaquin, who was killed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas in Parkland, Florida. His dad, Manuel, his mom, Patricia, Oliver, were both here to celebrate his 19th birthday. And they and some of the students marching for our lives, we met one of the co-founders of that movement, that they're going to force us, this country, to do the right thing. So yes, let's do it. And just grateful for everyone who's leading on this. And, you know, if you're president, if you have a Democratic Senate, it still seems like the only way we're going to get gun control legislation passed is by eliminating the filibuster.

Would you push the senators to do that if you're president so we can actually get some of these gun proposals passed? Yes. But I also, the answer is yes, period. But I'd like to add this. The answer is yes, period. But I'd like to add this. I was thinking about how you get something like this done. Yeah. Despite all of the efforts, all of the attempts, the stonewalling, the silence, the complicity. And I really keep coming back to those big civil rights changes that we saw in the 1960s where you overcame Robert Byrd and his filibuster in the Senate. And you did that because the conscience of this country had been shocked by what they were seeing. Kids leading the crusade in Birmingham, the Freedom Riders, John Lewis,

everyone who was willing to put their life on the line, many who lost their lives in the process. It's that kind of movement that I see beginning in this country right now. Again, those moms, those students, those people from all walks of life who are doing this. So, yes, get rid of the filibuster. Make sure that we are able to achieve this goal. But even in the face of the filibuster, I know that this country is strong enough because we've demonstrated it before. And if ever we were counting on one another, it is now. So Trump's made it pretty clear that he wants this election to be about race and immigration and white identity. This makes some Democratic strategists and pundits nervous who think that

winning requires us to do what a lot of candidates did in 2018 and make the campaign about people's economic concerns like health care. What do you think about this? us to do what a lot of candidates did in 2018 and make the campaign about people's economic concerns like health care. What do you think about this? You'll remember his name as a gentleman who just wrote a piece about the election against David Duke and how there was this temptation to, you know, let's keep this about kitchen table issues and let's not get into race. It makes people uncomfortable. It's not a winner. But they came to the conclusion that if you do not call this stuff out, then people can be forgiven for wondering, well, look, if the Democrat's not saying that this guy is a racist, then maybe he's not. He keeps telling us that he's not a racist, though he's saying all this

shit. So maybe he's not a racist. The Democrat won't even say that. I think we're faced with a similar opportunity right now. We can continue to ignore this racism and this path towards fascism that we're on right now with this president and instead focus on other issues. They're very important in their own right, but they are not as existential to this democracy, the future of this country, and the lives of the people in our lives as we just saw in El Paso, as this racism and this hatred and a president who pits us against one another. So we must absolutely call this out and forget the polling on this or even your own prospects in the next election. Do the right thing. And the polls and everything else will follow.

I'm confident of it. But if we fail to do that on all of us, we ignore it at our peril. And there's never been a more perilous moment, at least in my life, in this country. And so let's do the right thing. And I think that if we needed any clarity, that was clarified for all of us on Saturday. So last question, and I'll be honest, this is one that I struggle with myself. Since your Senate campaign, you've talked about going everywhere, speaking to everyone, including everyone, bringing the country together, which, you know, I love that message. How do you do that? What language do you use to do that when at least 40 percent of our fellow Americans still support the man you've rightly, in my opinion, called a white nationalist? Where do you begin to reconcile those two things?

I don't know, John. I often come back to Lincoln's second inaugural when I'm thinking about this. And in the midst of the Civil War, what was not yet completely over, after the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, deciding the fate of the institution of slavery and really the future of this country, his ability to focus on bringing the country back together and saying, look, let's not judge. But what the fuck are you thinking if you are able to win your bread through the sweat of those who've been enslaved? Maybe what has just happened in this country is there are the wages of of this sin. They're the wages of this sin.

We are going to pay this back until every single drop of blood has been repaid. Understanding this is a reckoning not just for the South, not just for the Confederacy, but for the entire country, which was complicit in the institution of slavery. And I think to some degree, there's that moment right now in this country. Certainly, Donald Trump is responsible and culpable. Certainly, those who aid and abet what he's doing in positions of power, including the Congress, are part of this as well. Those who chant, send her back. Absolutely. But perhaps to some degree, all of us who willfully turned a blind eye to the racism that's existed in this country for as long as we've been alive. The projection of our fears

on Mexican immigrants, for example, right here at the US-Mexico border that did not begin with Donald Trump, certainly has escalated under his administration in the most malicious way. But maybe there's a way to help bring this country together by acknowledging that we all had some part in producing the conditions that exist right now. And this is why this question is so hard, John. I do not mean to say that there is some kind of equivalency here because there absolutely is not. And I hope I've been very clear about who is responsible. But in terms of coming back together again after being as divided as we've ever been, perhaps since Lincoln's time, I

think all of us having the humility of acknowledging and understanding our role in this, and then having done that, understanding that now we're on the line and it's on us to do the right thing. I think that's the best possible path forward for us. Beto, thank you so much for joining us today. And please give our love to everyone in El Paso. And thank you for speaking up and meeting this moment. Thank you, John. Well, that was fun.

Yes, yes, it was. Thank you, Beto, for joining us. I want to make just two quick pitches for things people should read. Cool. You know, I was finding myself just, it's such a big and scary topic, but LA Times, Gillian Peterson and James Densley are two researchers that have looked into mass shootings since the 1960s.

I refer to a lot of what they were discussing. You should read the piece there. And I would follow Zeynep Tufekci on Twitter. She is one of the smartest people on the social contagion and the way this is covered. So if you're just looking for people to read and find smart data-driven information about this, I would start there. Excellent. All right, everyone, we'll talk to you on Thursday. Pod Save America is a product of Crooked Media. The show is produced by Michael Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Caroline Reston,

Tanya Somanator, and Katie Long for production support and to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, and Milo Kim, who film and upload these bad boys every week. Bye.