Pod Save America - “A bottomless pit of bad faith.”

Episode Date: December 7, 2017

Franken resigns, Moore keeps running with the GOP’s support so they can get their tax cut, and Trump recognizes Jerusalem to give Jared a win. Then Jesse Williams talks to Jon and Ira Madison about activism, politics, and Hollywood.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. Today on the pod, we will have the interview that Ira Madison and I did at our Santa Barbara show with actor and activist Jesse Williams. Also, thanks everyone who came out this weekend to see us. And, Dan, tickets are on sale now for our 2018 tour dates. Very exciting. They are going fast, people. Get them. They're going fast. Ones that are coming up soon,

the Dolby Theater right here in Los Angeles where they have the Oscars. That's going to be exciting. That's in early February. We're going to do one in LA before we head out on the road again. We're going to be in Europe in January. So there's a couple dates there. And then in February we got Vegas and

Phoenix and Denver. Denver is going really fast, but plenty of tickets to Vegas and Phoenix left. So anyway, go check it out. It's crooked.com slash events. You can check out all the tickets. Also, today is December 7th. Open enrollment for the Affordable Care Act ends on December 15th. So if you or someone you know wants to sign up for health insurance, please go check out healthcare.gov. Very affordable options this year. The good news is the pace for Affordable Care Act enrollment has surpassed other years, despite the Trump administration trying to sabotage it and yet it's going to fall behind where we were in other years because they decided to cut the time for open enrollment in half um which is you know pretty monstrous and stupid if you ask me yeah

because today is his number seventh it is also my mother's birthday so happy birthday mom happy birthday mrs pfeiffer okay we are recording this just moments after democratic senator al franken resigned in a speech on the senate floor uh he resigned after a seventh woman came forward on wednesday and accused him of sexual misconduct this time it was trying to forcibly kiss her in 2006. The other allegations range from forcible kissing to unwanted touching. Franken acknowledged general wrongdoing, but has denied some specifics. On the floor just now, he said, some of the allegations against me are simply not true. Others I remember quite differently. He also said, nothing I have done against me are simply not true. Others I remember quite differently. He also said, nothing I have done as a senator, nothing has brought dishonor on this institution.

But he acknowledged that he cannot serve for the people of Minnesota effectively as senator. While this ethics investigation goes on, Franken's resignation happened after the Politico story broke yesterday about the seventh accuser, and then Senator Kirsten Gillibrand called on him to resign. She was followed by other female Democratic senators, and then eventually the majority of the Senate Democrats, as well as the Democratic National Committee. Dan, what's your reaction to the Franken resignation? Well, I think it's the right thing to do. I am disturbed that Franken clearly believes he did nothing wrong. That was evident in the press conference that he gave a couple weeks ago, where he walked outside of his office and basically said, I'm sorry, but I didn't do any of these things, which was it was like a forced apology. And then he was echoing what we hear from a lot – I'd say two things.

One, he clearly did not – continues to deny the allegations. He does not believe the women. And if it was – and I think that is troubling. But at the end of the day, what matters is there was misconduct. It was from eight different individuals, all with very consistent stories. And the Democrats did the right thing and said, we will not tolerate that in our party and asked him to go. And he did the right thing in going for the party and for the people of Minnesota. Yeah. I mean, some have been saying, including some on the right, probably just to cause trouble. Some have said that he deserves due process and investigation, didn't get one, you know.

And you could argue that this sets a precedent for future incidents, including one where some right wing Trump asshole like a Mike Chernovich falsifies an allegation or, you know, gets an allegation falsified, which I think is a legitimate concern. But at the same time, like you just said, you know, if we're saying believe all women, and that's a principle right now, which I believe it should be, then when seven women, or I guess you just said eight, come out and have a similar story about sexual misconduct and, you know, that Franken did a similar thing to all of them, which is grope them during pictures, then that's misconduct. And he did acknowledge general wrongdoing. And so, you know, that's, I think, I think it was the right thing for him to do as even as hard as this one was. I mean, I think we can acknowledge that the allegations against Franken

were less severe than they were against Donald Trump or Roy Moore or John Conyers, another Democrat. It doesn't have to be partisan. And, you know, and even as they were less severe, you know, if we're going to have zero tolerance for sexual harassment and sexual assault, then zero tolerance means zero tolerance. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And the one thing that I was – I'm somewhat disturbed by is the – I guess I shouldn't be disturbed. I may have disturbed but not shocked about some of the media pundit reaction which frames the Democratic response to this in terms of politics. Now, let's stipulate. It's Washington. Politics overhangs everything. the Democratic response to this in terms of politics. Now, let's stipulate it's Washington.

Politics overhangs everything, right? You can't think about how Democrats respond to Franken without thinking about how the Democrats will handle the potential election of Roy Moore or the mere fact that Donald Trump continues to serve as president despite a long history of sexual misconduct, which we know because he's bragged about it on tape on multiple occasions. But it is also, it can be that this is the politically right thing to do, and it is also just the right thing to do. Well, yes, Dan. This is going to be so angry this morning because you're right.

Stipulated that there is a political angle to this, and if you are a political journalist, you should cover the political angle. We are going to talk about the politics here. But that's not how a lot of these stories are starting, right? They're sort of jettisoning the actual facts of the case. I saw an NBC headline this morning, Dems Ditch Franken to Get More. On CNN today, it was saying Democrats Seek Moral High Ground. Like, the problem becomes when it's only about,

when it's only framed as politics, which is what a lot of political journalists do. And I thought that was pretty, it's just so cynical, right? Like perhaps, you know, I mean, perhaps Al Franken did it because he believed it was the right thing to do to step down. Perhaps Kirsten Gillibrand called on him to step down

because she's been someone who's stood up for women and has been fighting to prevent sexual assault. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a purely political calculus, even as you acknowledge that politics plays a role in some of this, you know? Right, I think it was Chris Hayes pointed this out on Twitter yesterday that the Democrats, their

approach to these issues is different because they have more women in their caucus than the Republicans do. And it was the women senators who led the call for Franken to resign. Kirsten Gillibrand is not new to this issue. She has fought her whole life on this. One of the major issues she's fought for in her Senate career is preventing sexual assault in the military. And she has been leading the charge in Congress to reform the way Congress deals with sexual harassment on Capitol Hill. And so it is unfair to her to suggest that she is doing this out of some

calculus. Many of these women senators have talked about their own Me Too moments over the last couple months here. And so we should give people the benefit of the doubt that they are sincere in this, particularly in something that is so close to their own experience and on issues they fought for. And it's not easy. Like we see, we've seen this in the media where we've watched the reactions of some of our friends, whether it's Savannah Guthrie or Dale King or Nora O'Donnell, as they've reacted to finding out that their friend and colleague behaved in, in horrible ways and trying to reconcile the idea of this person I know and like and respect and work with on a daily

basis and this other conduct I'm learning about. Like that is a challenging thing to figure out how to handle. But in the end, they did the right thing. I think they did it for the right reasons. And I think they would have done the same thing even if Roy Moore was down by 15 points in this polls or had lost the primary to Luther Strange. I think it would have ended in the same way. Yeah. And look, again, none of this is easy.

You know, I've seen a lot of reaction yesterday and early today. Like there's a lot of Democrats who are upset and don't want didn't want Franken to resign. There's some who thought who thought like it's been too long. He should have resigned earlier. I don't think by any means this was an easy call and an easy issue, especially the Franken case. I think some of the other ones are a little more clear-cut that we'll talk about, like Roy Moore. But, you know, like I said, after a lot of thought on this, I come down on that it was the right thing to do. It is outrageous, however, that, you know, still in public life, Republican Representative Blake Farenthold, who settled a sexual harassment suit

with his staffer in 2014 for $84,000 paid for by taxpayers, Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore, who's been accused of molesting multiple underage women, plenty of evidence in that case, and President Donald Trump, who's been accused of sexual harassment and assault by 12 women and was caught bragging about it on tape. You know, Mitch McConnell yesterday, his statement on Franken was quite interesting. He said, while the Senate Ethics Committee is reviewing these serious allegations, it now appears that Senator Franken has lost the support of his colleagues and most importantly, his constituents. I do not Republican, can one Republican explain why Al Franken should step down but Donald Trump shouldn't?

We'd just love to hear one of them try to answer that question. Or Farenthold. Or Roy Moore. Right, exactly. I'd love to hear someone ask the question as far as i can tell it's happened once and it was steven's keep to paul ryan and then paul ryan just melted like the wicked witch of the west as right as he asked it in the interview ended right it's just you know and there's a lot of angry democrats out there who are like you know why is he doing this?

Why is Franken doing this? Because none of these Republicans are going to step down. And look, I've said this before on this podcast. The Franken thing is the right thing to do, but we shouldn't pretend this whole idea that, oh, Democrats will then capture the moral high ground. And somehow that will help push some of these Republican sexual harassers out of office. I never really believed that was going to be the case because the Republicans don't fucking care. They don't. They just don't care. But that doesn't mean that we should say, okay, well, since you don't care

and you're going to let sexual predators run for office and be president of the United States, then we're just going to follow you down that path. Sometimes the right thing is just the right thing. the United States, then we're just going to follow you down that path. Sometimes the right thing is just the right thing. Right. And you have to believe, and I believe despite the dark world of 2017, that in the end, doing the right things is the better politics. And if you don't believe that... This is what Barack Obama always taught us. Right. We should just give up and become like the Republicans. And that, I mean, I think that would be disastrous for the country. But like, we need people to believe in us to turn

out and vote. Republicans want people to be so cynical that they think it's not worth voting and their core voters turn out. And so to do that, you've got to do the right thing. And if you don't believe that, get out of politics. Yeah. Like like I acknowledge that short term, this probably isn't good politics for us. And you know, by the way, some people are like, oh, this was easy, because a Democratic governor of Minnesota is going to just appoint a Democrat. Well, you know, Minnesota was a little too close for comfort in 2016. When Hillary and Trump went against each other, we now have two seats that we're defending in 2018 in Minnesota, Amy Klobuchar's seat, and now this seat that Franken just stepped down from. So it's not a slam dunk by any means.

And so I don't think that the short-term politics of this are great or a big win. But I do think the right thing to do is write long term for us because, you know, we're a party that, A, says that we believe women and that we want to prevent and stop sexual harassment and sexual assault. And I think when politicians show that they have integrity and that they're doing what's right, that that might not pay off in the short term, but it does pay off in the long term. And we talked about this a little bit with Ana last week, which is what is ultimately critical here is that we have a larger culture change in this country, because it is not

unique to Hollywood, Congress, media companies that sexual harassment and misconduct is happening all over the place. It is happening in workplaces of all shapes and sizes all across this country. And we're only finding out about the ones that are very close to the media, which is ferreting these out. And if we're going to have that cultural change, it's going to require people to be held accountable. and that includes politicians. Right. And now, at this point, basically, the only people in the country, we've said this before, who have not been held accountable for sexual assault and sexual harassment are Republican male politicians. That's the only group in the country so far. Every other industry, Democrats in politics everywhere have stepped down or been forced out

of their jobs over these allegations, except for Republicans. Speaking of that, we talked about this on the last pod, but the Republican Party has now gone all in on Roy Moore. You've got the RNC spending money on the race again. They've jumped back into the race, which is quite an interesting move. The pro-Trump super PAC is spending a couple million there in the last week. McConnell, who said that he believes Roy Moore's accusers, still thinks that the people of Alabama should decide,

which is as cynical as you can get. Orrin Hatch, who, yeah, time for you to retire, buddy, who's out there saying, oh, yeah, well, these allegations happened years ago, as if there's a statute of limitations on that kind of shit. Unbelievable. And Trump is all in. So what do we think about this? Now, you know, we should acknowledge that Jeff Flake, who's retiring, he sent a check to Doug Jones, tweeted that out. Mitt Romney, who's obviously not in office, he made a pretty strong statement about how the party shouldn't be connected to

Roy Moore and that no Senate seat is worth that. Why aren't more Republicans donating to Jones? I would quote our fellow podcast host, John Lovett, for this, which is bottomless bad faith. Bottomless bad faith. Bottomless bad faith. And it's like Ben Sasse, who has held himself up as the moral conscience of the Republican Party and was very brave in 2016 in standing up to Trump, no doubt. He was very bold about that. But he was on Twitter the other night basically trying to explain why he opposed Moore but was unwilling to support Jones. And you could sum up his position as word salad, right? Politics is a

binary choice. You have two options. You can either have Ray Moore, who is a child molester, or Doug Jones, who is by all accounts a good moral public servant. Those are your two choices. There is not a third option of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Those are the two choices. And making a choice requires courage. And they are unwilling to have it because of politics. It's all it is. They are afraid that Steve Bannon is going to come to their state. They are afraid that Donald Trump is going to tweet about them. They're afraid the Roy Moore base, whatever the fuck that is, the pro-pedophilia wing of the party will come after them. It's not – the easiest thing in politics should be opposing a child molester. But they can't do it.

And the overhang of this also is important is they are very afraid they're going to need Roy Moore's vote to pass this tax bill because they can only lose two votes and they are in danger of not being able to fulfill the deal that they gave Susan Collins, which she agreed to vote for the tax bill last week. And so what it really comes down to is that a tax cut for the rich supporting child molester is preferable to a democrat that's right which is a joke that if we had made about republicans we would have been lambasted for being unfair to them we can't it is impossible to be unfair to this republican party because every time you set the level of what would be below the belt they go below it yeah and Yeah, and we should just talk about this as an aside with this tax bill here.

So it goes to conference committee so that they can resolve the differences between the House and the Senate bill. But like you said, normally what happens is it goes to conference committee, they work out a new bill that's a combination of the House and the Senate bill, resolve the differences, and then the bill has to go back to pass the House one more time back to pass the House one more time and to pass the Senate one more time. Now, some people have said, well, if they get in trouble here, basically the House can just pass the Senate bill without a conference committee,

even though the House wants some changes. And in an emergency, the House can just do this and the differences aren't that big and it's fine and republicans can get their tax cut well maybe not anymore because they are now realizing that as they were scribbling changes onto the bill at one in the morning when they were trying to pass this tax cut they made a bit of a mistake it was a 300 billion dollar mistake they basically their whole purpose of the of the tax bill was to um you know give corporations allow corporations to take advantage of of certain deductions and and lower taxes and what have you we won't bore you with all the details but basically because we don't understand them that's why i tried last night there's something about like it's very hard right now the way it is drafted now corporations can no longer

use the research and development tax credit which quite a few companies use and then you know the whole way internationally businesses are taxed they wanted to change that that was the whole purpose of the bill and that's now null and void because of a mistake that they made so basically companies would have to pay 300 billion more in taxes than they originally wanted them to because of this mistake. And if there's any mistake that's going to cause them to go back to the drawing board, it's making companies pay $300 billion more than they thought. So now they really do need a conference committee. And now the Senate really does have to vote on the bill again. And like you said, they already have one no vote with Corker.

They need Collins. And just this morning, the assholes in the Freedom Caucus in the House said, oh, all the things that Collins was promised by McConnell to fix health care to get her vote, we're not doing them. They're non-starters. So nothing that Collins actually wanted. And the whole reason that she voted for this thing is because she got these IOUs from Mitch McConnell. None of that stuff now is going to end up in this bill, at least if a lot of these House Republicans have anything to say about it. We'll see. Maybe they'll change their mind. So then if you don't have Corker, and then if Collins actually stands by her principles, which is a big open question, and votes no, then if Doug Jones comes to the Senate,

then that means that's three no votes and then the bill fails. So they really need Roy Moore in the Senate. So Steve Bannon was down in Alabama stumping for his friend Roy Moore. And he, of course, most of his attacks were focused on Jeff Flake. He attacked Mitt Romney for his statement and decided to attack Mitt Romney for not serving in Vietnam because he was hiding behind his religion. He attacked Mitt Romney's sons for not serving. This is the Steve Bannon who was campaign manager for draft dodger Donald Trump, who decided that he couldn't enlist in Vietnam because of bone spurs, imaginary bone spurs. What a monster. It's just really the worst person. I know we always say donald trump

is our worst citizen and he probably is but but steve bannon is coming up fast like he is just i mean the thing that it is so galling how important and smart he thinks he is and how willing the Republicans are to allow him to continue believing that by inviting him down there and then acting like he matters that much. And is this worth pointing out? He runs a website out of his basement. Anyway, the point is, support Doug Jones.

This race is not over by any means. You know, I think Doug Jones is an underdog here, but he's got a real shot. Harriet and then FiveThirtyEight has a piece out today talking about how unreliable, not unreliable, but how a lot of Senate polls, the margin of error has been quite large over the last 10, 15 years. And Moore's probably three-point lead right now is well within the margin of error. And look, like this should not be—it's interesting. We focus a lot on Roy Moore's, on the allegations against him by these women for molesting underage women. But even before that Washington Post story broke, this is a man who said homosexuality should be illegal, a man who said that women shouldn't be able to vote, run for office,

and that Muslims shouldn't serve in Congress. Way before that Washington Post story, this man should have been disqualified from office. It is insane that the party, that the Republican party is behind this guy. Insane. They have decided that they are willing to support, essentially, R. Kelly for Senate. Yeah. I mean, it's really unbelievable. And, you know, you sort of referenced this in the McConnell tweet, but it's been really interesting to watch how the Republicans are setting themselves up to justify not kicking

Moore out of the Senate, because it's worth remembering the Senate. McConnell has the power to send Roy Moore home, right? He can expel him from the Senate if he is elected, which they almost certainly would have done if he was elected. And then these allegations came out and he refused to resign. But so last night on Fox News, you had a bunch of horrible people defending Al Franken, basically saying he was being run out of town without due process. Franken, basically saying he was being run out of town without due process. And then Newt Gingrich, moral conscience of the Republican Party, tweeted, Franken, one million Minnesotans picked him for Senate in 2014, 30 self-appointed,

quote, pure senators want him out. What happened to popular vote? So this is all the justification for, well, he's terrible, but who are we to say, to tell the people of Alabama, we will not accept their, we will not invite their child molester to our weekly lunch so we can vote for our bills. It's gross. Doug Jones, people. I thought Doug Jones had a great line the other day. I'm proud of what I've done to ensure that men who hurt little girls end up in jail and not the Senate. Doug Jones, we talk a lot about Roy Moore on this pod, but Doug Jones is as good of a candidate and as good of a Democrat and as good of a human being as you can find.

This is a man who prosecuted KKK members who murdered little girls and has had a long career on being tough on crime. And he's a good Democrat. And, you know, we should send him to the United States Senate. The people of Alabama should. So donate to Doug Jones and hopefully he can pull it through. Okay. When we come back, we're going to have Tommy Vitor on to talk about the Trump administration's decision to declare Jerusalem the capital of Israel. Okay, we're back with Tommy Vitor.

Vitor Detour here. Hey, guys. Hey, Tom. Hi, Tommy. Hi, Thursday. So I didn't really have time to read all about this yesterday because there were 80,000 other things in the news. But I heard that the Trump administration declared that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. It is.

And that the U.S. Embassy would be moving there, or at least that was the plan. And that this decision was pushed on him by our friend Jared Kushner. Yeah. What's the background here? Why did he do this? What's the backstory? So in doing this, he broke with like seven decades of U.S. policy. He also broke with essentially everyone else in the world. All the

Arab states didn't want to do this. Allies like France, like the Pope, frenemies like China, reportedly even members of his national security team didn't want him to do this. And the reason is, well, there's a few reasons. One, Jerusalem is a final status issue, meaning it's going to have to be negotiated between the Israelis and the Palestinians to figure out which land goes to which group of people and where the capital is. It's always been assumed that the Israeli capital will be in Jerusalem, but that the Palestinian capital will be in East Jerusalem, which will mean the city has to be divided in some way that is somewhat equitable and fair. I think Palestinians and Arab states rightly feel like Trump just gave the Israelis sort of the most important piece of these negotiations because of the religious and historic significance of that piece of territory. So yeah, I just want to talk about that. The religious significance of Jerusalem

is that for both the Muslim world and the Jewish world, Jerusalem is an important city. Yeah, I mean, for Muslims, Christians, and Jews, right? You have the Temple Mount, you have the Alaska Mosque, you have, like, enormous a fraught, fraught decision and, you know, something that has been deeply litigated for literally decades trying to figure out neighborhood by neighborhood, block by block, which territory will go to which group. And Trump just came out and said, you know, here's your capital. Now, his his team will say essentially he was just stating a fact, a reality that ultimately Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel. That is in some ways true, but it's still a big deal that the United States, which is supposed to be an honest broker in these negotiations, would be seen to be giving such a huge chit to the Israelis this early in the process. Because this has been a sticking point for every single Middle East peace set of negotiations for as far back as there have been negotiations on Middle East peace. Yeah, I mean, they're huge.

Every part of the Middle East peace process is a brutal long-term negotiation. And that goes for borders, specific territory. specific territory. I mean, when you're talking about like settlement construction, and how those might be swapped house of territory, where Israelis have built settlements in the West Bank might be swapped for territory that Israelis currently hold, you're literally talking about like, block by block, right? So this is painstaking stuff. But the Jerusalem portion of these negotiations is the most delicate and most sensitive and most important because of all that historical significance. In the reporting, Jared Kushner, whose main job it appears to be is to try to strike a Middle East peace deal between the Israelis and the Palestinians,

is reported to have pushed very hard for this, according to friends close to Jared, which is usually Jared. Why would he do this? Why? I guess that's the line question because I can't figure it out. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to tell. I mean, I think Trump, like I think the reports I've read is that this makes sense to me is that Trump wanted to do this because he thinks I made a promise and I'm going to deliver on my promise and other presidents haven't. And it's a talking point that's political and he can seem pro-Israel. So he's coming out in favor of this. I think Jared Kushner, and I could kind of get where his head is on this, looks at this problem and thinks every administration has essentially tried doing this the same way for 70 years. Let's try

something different. I get that. But I do think that he's probably listening to his friends in Saudi Arabia. He's listening to the Israelis who have convinced him to try something new that I think will be viewed by almost the entire world is putting a thumb on the scale in a big way for the Israelis and ultimately probably making getting to a peace agreement harder. Like there is no peace process right now. There's no that we know of publicly. There's no set of talks that are ongoing. There's no negotiations. There's no process. There's no nothing. Obama tried and we failed, you know, not for lack of trying, but it's where we are. What are the consequences of this move or what might be some of the consequences? So the near-term consequences are strong reaction in the Arab world in particular. You've got Hamas calling for a new intifada.

You're seeing calls for a day of rage. You've seen protests on the streets as we're talking in Gaza and in the West Bank, clashes between security forces and Israeli security forces and people. So that could get worse. They could flare up and then go away. There is a broader political consequence that it might sort of permanently kill any effort in negotiation. It might lead Arab states to withdraw their backing for any sort of U.S.-led peace process. So we don't really know yet. All these countries talk about the Palestinian issue and pay a lot of lip service

because it lets them attack the Israelis. It's not clear to me how much sometimes the people who loudly decry the occupation actually care about the plight of the Palestinian people. So I don't know how far this will lead. But the State Department set up a 24-hour monitoring center to see if there's violence. So it's not good in the near term. So potential near-term violence and unrest, long-term potential collapse of the peace process. And, but hey, at least the Trump administration got a talking point. And that's the frustrating thing. It's like, what did we get for this? We gave the Israelis this huge negotiating chip, and it's not clear we got anything back.

The best argument I've heard is that maybe down the road, because we gave them this piece now, we might be able to try to extract something hard. There's no evidence that Netanyahu is willing to make a tough decision. He certainly wasn't with Obama. Tommy, I think you might be giving the Trump administration too much credit. Yeah. Because they are going to get something. They're going to get Sheldon Adelson's millions of dollars in campaign donations, which he's the one who pushed for this. And so you can tie this in some ways to what they did with the tax cut bill.

There is a systematic approach to give a foot rub to every billionaire Republican donor who's been concerned about what's been happening in the administration to date. So the Kochs got their tax break, the hedge fund guys got their carried interest break, and Sheldon Adelson gets this policy priority of his. You know, it's like the Washington Post had a piece that posted last night and today, and it was consistent in sort of after-action TikTok stories about Trump making big foreign policy decisions where a whole bunch of people read out that it seemed like he doesn't really understand the underlying issue or the consequences or what's going on.

Wow, surprising. And he's just making a political call. And, you know, here we are politicizing the most delicate issue in all of U.S. foreign policy, you know, on a platter by Donald Trump. But you know what? Jared's had a tough time over the last couple of months, and he really needed a win. I read that in all of U.S. foreign policy, you know, on a platter by Donald Trump. But you know what? Jared's had a tough time over the last couple of months, and he really needed a win. I read that in a few stories. Jared needed a win, guys. He's maybe back in the good graces in the White House.

Jared's back. Jared's back in the good graces. Well, thank you, Tommy. That was very helpful. Uplifting. We were hoping for some Russia news. There's really not a lot of Russia updates except for the Don Jr. met for eight hours with the House Intelligence Committee yesterday and then decided to cite attorney-client privilege when asked about a conversation he had

with his father about Jr.'s meeting with several Russian spies who offered dirt on Hillary Clinton during the campaign. And apparently Jr. said there was an attorney in the room during the conversation so he doesn't have to say anything. Yeah. Eric Trump invoked executive privilege because he works at a big company. This is, I mean, this is so funny because this is a joke I used to make all the time in the white house with Kathy Romler. She was white house counsel is I would threaten to put CC her on all my emails. So they would always be attorney client privilege. She did not think that was a good idea and did not think it was funny that i made the joke um but i guess donald trump jr took it completely seriously and went for it we also can't forget that mike flynn coming right out of the

inauguration decided to text the business partner and tell them they were gonna rip up the sanctions right away and build a bunch of uh nuclear facilities all over the middle east it's like if you guys had read that story aloud to me a year ago, I never would have believed it. I would have said it was ridiculous. He is the most corrupt motherfucker. Ever. Maybe in this whole administration. He's so bad at it.

Yeah, no, he may not be the most corrupt, but he's still the most incompetent at being corrupt. Yeah, the incompetent and corrupt scale, he's definitely. Usually, Intel guys understand tradecraft and not leaving an electronic trail of your crimes. Not Mike Flynn. Text away. He was the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency. Yeah. Okay, well, stay tuned on that.

You've seen him in The Butler, Brooklyn's Finest, and Grey's Anatomy. He is executive producer of the documentary Stay Woke, the Black Lives Matter movement, and the upcoming documentary Withdrawn Arms. He's also taking Silicon Valley by storm with the launch of his new app, Blebrity, actor and activist Jesse Williams. Thank you for coming. What's up, everybody? Hello, hello.

Thanks for joining us. Of course. How are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Any excuse to come to Santa Barbara? Many people obviously know you as an actor, but you've made quite an impact off screen. You've spoken out against police brutality, in favor of Americans' right to protest, against white supremacy.

You didn't have to speak up about these issues, but you have. What's been the inspiration behind speaking out for you? I think, I mean, I've always had it. This is who I've always been. This is who I was raised to be. I just happened to have started acting, which means there are more cameras around um I I think ultimately I just didn't change um honestly that I don't mean that as like a line but I didn't I didn't receive some new inspiration I just kept absorbing as much information as possible trying to understand historical context of people's liberation movements around the world and in this country, and try to articulate them when I see gaps in the communication line and get frustrated with what I don't see somehow, even though

we have 24 hours of news all day every day. And anytime I feel like I can throw some context in there, I take a swing at it. Is there a moment for you where you decided enough's enough and I'm going to start talking about these issues? Well, yeah, there's been several. I think particularly I felt really inspired, proud, happy amidst some misery, but around the slaughter of Trayvon and then into Ferguson. And I say what made me happy, what kind of fulfilled me in some way, was how inspired I was by watching people organize in those communities

and, more importantly, sustain them over days into weeks into months and watch Ferguson really become something that I think people expected to fizzle eventually. Eventually they'll stop, and a couple weeks into it they'll stop, and they didn't. And that was something that really made me really excited about an opportunity and inspired by watching my peers stay vigilant and try to marry that fire with impacting policy on a local, regional, and federal level. Speaking of some of your peers, what's that sort of like, you know, when you are an outspoken sort of actor and celebrity, you know, navigating the spaces where, you know, you may be working with people who aren't as outspoken?

You know, do they ever have, are there moments where you find like teachable moments where you can, you know, tell other people, you know, if you would like to speak out, this is how you can speak out? Or do you ever find some people are like, I just don't want any part of that? All of the above, certainly. When you say peers, you mean fellow actors, right? Yeah, we have, you know, I find, I'm constantly meeting folks who want to figure out, some people don't really mean it, hey, and if there's anything I can do, let me know, and, but most people do, and I try to meet them at whatever level they want to be on, they choose to be on, or they are on, and that's, excuse me, that could be just one-on-one conversation

dialogue pointing folks in the right direction um for some reading or a way to kind of get their their weight up as it were or pointing them in direction of organizations that i'm a part of i'm on the board of directors at the advancement at advancement project which is a tremendous national advocacy organization um as well as like sankofa harry belafonte's organization which is a tremendous national advocacy organization, as well as like Sankofa, Harry Belafonte's organization, which is really built around connecting artists with activism and following in his footsteps. So trying to figuring out where exactly they want to find an entry point into the conversation, a word I actually hate nowadays,

but into the actual work of it all. And, you know, but I also am not somebody who believes that everybody needs to be doing what I'm doing, certainly, or that everybody has some innate responsibility that just because they're famous, they have to be out there fighting the good fight. I think that, you know, some people just want to sing. And some people, just because you can,

I've said this many times, just because you can dunk a basketball, I don't think that means you have some, way more responsibility as a human being, as a member of the populace, than a teacher or a plumber or anybody else. We've all got to step forward and be awake and participate, I think. And famous people can do more damage than good if they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

Absolutely. We've seen that. We've seen that. more damage than good if they don't know what the fuck they're talking about absolutely you know have you seen some of that um backlash towards you you know if we talk about you know the you we see like the colin um kathryn x of the world you know we see the kind of backlash they get it comes from the white house you know um you know, what sort of do you find yourself brushing up against? Oh, well, red-faced, furious people who send me handwritten death threats and threaten me and my family and try to get me to lose my job and my livelihood and my life sometimes. And, you know, and that's just part of it that's the way it is

and it certainly affects my business certainly affects my bottom line and not getting work because people don't like my politics but um that's okay that's part of the deal that's what i signed up for um but but i think we also need to be careful that like there's no there's kind of people often ask you know about what's hollywood how's hollywood reacting how's white hollywood reacting and uh there's not really such a thing as hollywood in my experience there are really horrible trash people in that business making crap there are brilliant inspired thinking wonderful people making really incredible stuff putting themselves at risk pushing the limits and finding new ways to use alternative forms of media.

There is a lot of diversity within the business is my point and I don't view it as this monolithic kind of cloud hanging over me. Some people don't, we all make choices and I didn't, my life's work is not to be an actor. This business wasn't my dream. It's what I happen to be doing now. I'm fine without it. It's not something that I'm clinging to in a way that is going to affect my choices to leave a legacy and kind of participate.

What was that dream? Being a civil rights attorney was the only dream I had. Also football. I was going to be a football player. I didn't fill out. Okay. As hard as I tried. So I scrapped that

and I was certain I was going to be a civil rights attorney. I still might. I still very well might be. That's what fulfills me. This work makes me happy. Chadwick Boseman would play you in a biopic. He'd play all of us. He's playing John next. Perfect.

I think the purpose of protest often is to make people feel uncomfortable about controversial issues. How do you balance that need with the desire to persuade people and to convince them to see things in a different light? Well, I think I disagree a little bit. I don't view protest as any part of its goal. I don't view discomfort as a goal. I view it as for some, it's really about the recipient more than it is in some ways than the person who's trying to draw attention to a topic. Discomfort might be part of it. But I do take, I think your question really is, how do you find ways to frame things and articulate an issue without creating more distance

than is necessary, polarizing folks, making them feel uncomfortable? Some of that, you know, it really depends on the audience and the topic. You know, I choose to try to be as close to truth as i understand it as possible and cut with as sharp a knife as i possibly can be excuse me precise and efficient with language um and and know the audience and if and if the discomfort is a part of that well fucking we've been uncomfortable for centuries so we'll figure you guys can handle it i think that

juggling there is a very specific discomfort that really is the one that matters because this is a white country and there's this thing called white fragility and you guys we got to talk to you very carefully sometimes and and that's all good and sometimes that's that is a push and pull and a dance and i think that um if you're coming, like anything in a relationship that's personal or huge, if you're coming from a place of love, coming from a place of trying to draw things together, you know, in an argument, if your goal is to meet in the middle, if your goal is to come together, that's so very different than if your goal is to win or to keep going or to get somebody to fuck off. It's different.

And I like to participate in conversations, dialogue, megalogue that is around a solution. It's really solution-oriented. And sometimes you need to, in order to trigger empathy and understanding, you need to really try to create space for them to feel and touch and smell what it is that you're living through. And the thing that none of us are experts on everything, we're pretty ignorant on most things, right? Depends on what topic that you want to focus on and giving people a chance to forgive themselves sometimes for not knowing what they didn't know

until they were taught. But also there's But also, that's got to meet curiosity. Where as you get older, you've got to demonstrate a real curiosity about things. You've got to ask and lean forward into some of these things so that you're a worthy student. You've kind of got to earn being a student as much as just sitting there isn't enough. So in addition to acting and producing, you've also become a tech entrepreneur.

You've built several apps. Yeah. What made you decide to follow that path? A variety of reasons. My first foray, well, I guess my first entry into apps was with Question Bridge, Black Males, this really dope, excuse me, I haven't had a beer in a while.

I'm trying to be cool with the fellas, you know. But it was this transmedia project we did around black male identity that opened at Sundance in 2012. We went around the country interviewing black men from all walks of life, putting a camera on them, kind of Brady Bunch style, just them in a frame, and asking them to look into the camera and ask a question of other black men from all walks of life, putting a camera on them, kind of Brady Bunch style, just them in a frame, and asking them to look into the camera and ask a question of other black men that they feel detached from, whether that's socioeconomically, politically, generationally, geographically, religious, whatever. It is a question you've always wanted to ask other black men.

So we collected all of these questions from men and then turned the questions on them and had them answer some questions. And what we ended up with was 150 hours of black men having these really private, intimate conversations with other men they've never met before. And we put it up on these 10-foot pillars, five 10-foot pillars in museums. It's now at the Smithsonian in D.C.,

the African-American Smithsonian and Brooklyn Museum. And it demonstrates the diversity within our demographic. There's more diversity within the demographic than there is outside of it. Black folks are not this homogenous group. There's no such thing as black guys do this. You can't complete that sentence. So that turned into an app where people can play around with it. So that was my first entry into kind of figuring out

how technology and mobile devices can be used. Since we're all going to have our heads down and plugged into them anyway, how can they be used to kind of open things instead of close conversations? And then I joined a team at Scali, which is a really dope scholarship app. We simply connect students to the $100 million of unclaimed scholarships that exist every year. We've connected students to almost $100 million dollars, over 80 million dollars in scholarships for graduate school and undergraduate school. And then it's also fun. I think I realized, John, looking at social media, looking at how much blackness really drove trends, fashion, dialogue, conversation,

the way people behave, move, and create in artistic spaces and drove political conversations. Black Twitter driving like seven of the top 10 trending topics per week, but we don't own any of it. We're not hired by any of those companies. We're not participating in the dialogue. We're just kind of swagging out other people's products. So we started Abroji, which was a way to use kind of gifs and nuance and to add tone and texture to your conversations online, your mobile conversations, and try to be subversive in encouraging people to use black and brown and trans and LGBTQ bodies to express love and LOL and happiness and discomfort or whatever these reactions are um there's just

there wasn't to normalize blackness we don't always have to be demonstrating or giving you a biopic of some hero or being slaves or or trying you know experiencing some huge triumph we can just be people and uh so we so so that was what that was about and that's really fun and and then we have celebrity which is just a great, fun game. It's a really fun kind of, I say parlor game, but I feel like I'm in the 30s when I say that. I feel like, what's a parlor? But it's like charades, but it just centers and normalizes black culture.

Instead of all these other games, that was always watching. We were playing Bulebrity, which is, you know, you've got topics like music or movies or things that black moms say. And we also have a category for white folks invited to the cookout. You might want to take a look, see if you're on the list. But we were

playing this with a bunch of friends and we had two white friends that are good friends of ours that were playing. They sat at a different table, obviously. I'm kidding. But we were playing and we're all having a great time. And when I noticed like they weren't answering anything, they didn't know the answers to this particular very black topic. And I was like, wow, that's how we feel. We felt what playing games our whole lives that don't have anything to do with us. Don include we call you call it pop culture but it's really white pop culture or like it you know it's like rmb but only when white people do it like that kind of stuff and so this was just something it's not this is

just a fun game that we realized that we wanted to just kind of what if we centered ourselves in the game what if when we said pop culture we included us what if when we say music we included us what if when we list tv shows it's not just friend seinfeld and frazier it's things that we also watch too those are some of my favorite shows but but you know it just includes us without it having to be um a really big deal and it's and it's doing really great because um people like to have fun yeah um well before we let you go you want to give it a go don't you we want to play a little game here as well we have John Lovett

who's going to host this guys alright now for a game called blebrity here's how it works he explained it we're going to do our version of it which is a political version of blebrity don't worry I see what you all people look like every answer is Omarosa political version of blebrity. Don't worry, I see what you all people look like.

Every answer is Omarosa. It's Omarosa or Black-ish. So we're going to play a political version of blebrity right now. We're going to put a minute on the clock and we're going to go through. We're going to put something up on the screen and one by one we're going to play. I'm going to go first and we're just going to rotate through. As we get them, we'll hear a bell. Are you guys ready? We're ready. You're giving me clues. I'm not going to see the screen. Okay.

If I get it, then we're going to give Jesse clues, then Ira, etc. So we want to get you to say... Elizabeth Warren. What does Trump call the haunt? There you go. How dare you, by the way. Department of Education, Secretary of Education. Arnie Duncan. He's a surgeon,

but he seems like he's mentally ill. That's it. I'm a better guy. Jamel Hill. Love Jamel. The Apprentice in the Underworld.

Everything. Yes! Oh, the apprentice in the answer to everything. Oh, many people are talking about him more lately. He's getting a lot of recognition lately. Leader of Abilene, yeah. People say my dad looks like him. He referred to, Donald Trump referred to Mexican people. They're not good people, they're... Rapists.

That's true. If you were, in his mind, they all wear sombreros. Oh, bad hombres. Come on. She was disinvited from the White House Christmas party. January, February, March. April. Oh, Ryan.

That's the way you give clues if you don't know. Sarah Huckabee's nemesis. Sarah Huckabee's nemesis. She just wants to know who made that pie. That's fun. So badly. Everybody's fun. See?

It was great. That was enjoyable. It's that easy. Jesse Williams, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me, guys. Thank you. Bye.