Pod Save America - “A toxic and unhelpful affair.” (Debate recap special!)

Episode Date: February 26, 2020

Jon, Jon and Tommy talk about the chaotic Democratic debate that went down in South Carolina just days ahead of the Palmetto State’s primary, and where the candidates stand with just a week to go until Super Tuesday.

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitor. On today's pod, we'll talk about the absolute mess of a debate in South Carolina last night and what it all means for the candidates heading into this weekend's primary. And just a few days later, Super Tuesday, where nearly 40% of all the delegates are at stake. A few quick housekeeping notes. Tommy, what did you and Ben talk about on this week's Pod Save the World?

We spent a lot of time talking about some of the criticisms of Bernie Sanders' foreign policy record and past statements that you heard discussed on that stage last night. So if you want a primer on what's right, what's wrong, what are the facts, check it out. We also talked about Trump's visit to India and the fact that he named a real-life Twitter troll to be head of the intelligence community, which is bad. Not great. Not great at all. Also a reminder that even though we're still in this super fun primary, we need to start preparing for the general election.

We've already raised $290,000 for our leave it all in the field fund, which is currently helping to recruit, train, and pay a thousand organizers in the battleground States that we need to win. So please help support a field organizer today at vote, save america.com slash field. Finally, if you're in the LA area the day after Super Tuesday, all four of us will be at the Wilshire Ebel Theater to talk about Dan's book Untrumping America and all the latest primary results. That's March 4th at 8pm. You can find more information and tickets at untrumpingamerica.com

Come say hi. Still should have called it Yes We Dan. Missed Opportunity. That would have been a better title. Missed Opportunity. All right. Last night, seven people yelled at each other for two hours on national television while a rowdy audience cheered and booed. Joe Biden, Mike Bloomberg, Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar, Bernie Sanders,

Tom Steyer, and Elizabeth Warren took the stage in Charleston, South Carolina for the most chaotic debate yet, which was hosted by CBS and loosely moderated by Gayle King, Nora O'Donnell and other CBS journalists. In case you missed it, here's a little taste of what the debate was like. Mr. Steyer, Mr. Steyer. I think we're talking about a match. We will get to you, Mr. Sanders. Let's talk about it. Can I say something?

Look, first of all. Bernie, let me go. Let me go. That was a very good cut. What the hell happened last night, guys? And why do you think this particular debate was so chaotic? I just wanted to first say that I really like a lot of reporters at CBS, especially Nora O'Donnell, especially Gail,

especially the fact that Margaret Brennan actually cares about foreign policy and talks about this stuff on her show. But their rules didn't get enforced. We moved on from topics right when they were getting interesting. I thought the framing of a lot of the questions was just terrible. It was like it like sort of bought into Republican talking points or ignored facts or I don't know it was I've never been this consistently frustrated. Or I don't know. It was I've never been this consistently frustrated, never at a debate. Love it. Yeah, it was a toxic and unhelpful affair, I'd say. It was hard to say there was any one reason it felt so dispiriting to observe. I think one one reason is the candidates.

is the candidates. I think they all came in with countervailing purposes, multiple different tacks to take on Bernie Sanders, take on Mike Bloomberg, take on each other, reframe their position in the race at a moment when, for a lot of these candidates, it will either be the first or the last debate of the rest of their lives. And on top of that, I think, to Tommy's point, I think some of the questions uh didn't provide an opportunity for any kind of sort of elucidating answers i mean it would be the first debate to talk about coronavirus the question was incredibly specific will you seal the borders it was you know the question of yeah that was weird question doesn't solve the problem it's something dumb that trump told us to do around ebola which was unhelpful. The question framed around Putin, the question for Israel

framed around what Jews will accept or what exactly the framing was. It all lent itself to, I think, the worst impulses of some of the candidates and to the worst impulses of political media right now. You know, the last question of the debate was very silly and we'll get to it. But ultimately, I actually found it to be one of the least depleting parts of the debate to observe because the candidates had a chance to just speak a little bit from the heart and, you know, try to convey something meaningful about their values when for the most part, it was a food fight without refs. food fight without refs yeah i mean you know i'll start with in defense of the moderators i think this debate would have been challenging for anyone because the candidates came ready to attack each other in part because like you said love it for many of them this is their last chance and so they were on edge to begin with that said and i and I also love Gayle King, love Nora O'Donnell. I think Margaret Brennan is a good journalist.

So it's hard even saying this about them, but it just was not moderated well. And I think one of the problems was when a candidate would challenge another candidate, the candidate who was challenged didn't even get to fully respond because then a bunch of other candidates jumped in. And I think it made all the candidates look bad because you'd get attacked, you'd try to respond, and then someone would cut you off. And so you didn't even really get to defend yourself. And that happened to almost all the candidates. I don't know what you do. Do you go to break early and say, hey, everybody, we got to enforce these rules. This is a nightmare. It makes all of you look bad. I'm not sure. But Biden complained about not getting time like four or five different times

so you could see that it was impacting him and his performance now i think a savvy debater knows that you've got to stop complaining about the refs and just adjust your strategy right that's true in any sport anything you ever do yeah but it was glaring and i thought he got screwed i thought pete got talked over a lot amy klobuchar didn't get a question for 15 minutes yeah the fuck was that it was wild I also think the we've all said this before there should be no crowds at debates. I think it is

always bad. And look, there was a lot of complaints last night because there was some local story about how the tickets were super expensive though there's a lot of conflicting reports about that. The DNC said that most of the tickets were evenly distributed among the campaigns, the Congressional Black Caucus, the South Carolina Democratic Party, CBS and Twitter. The South Carolina Democratic Party says that they actually did not sell their 400 tickets,

but gave them to activists and local officials. And this is what happened in the past. And in other debates, the state parties do sell their tickets. But regardless, each campaign had their own supporters evenly distributed in the audience. And those supporters decided to boo, cheer. They particularly cheered some of the moderate candidates, whether it was Bloomberg or Pete or Biden. Elizabeth Warren got booed once. But the way to handle that is just it's crazy to have these big crowds and turn it into a rally. The Democratic Party is seated. The Republicans, too. that is just it's crazy to have these big crowds and turn it into a rally with democratic party is seated the republicans do we've ceded too much control to tv networks that are putting on a show

that gets ratings and they run ads we should pull back this entire process put it on c-span put on pbs no audience no jeering no bullshit this is too important for a night like last night and have progressive activists and and people who know these issues ask the questions like we've been saying for a long time. I will say, though, I tend to agree with that. First of all, it's amazing how many incredibly important lessons we're learning for the next primary after the most important primary in history.

That's a bit frustrating. But on the other hand, the last debate, which I think was also a bit contentious, but nonetheless, I think we came away feeling a bit energized because it was a tough debate for some of the candidates. It was feisty, but it felt like these were candidates sort of on their game trying to make their best case was also on a major media network. And, you know, I think the argument in favor of doing it with these companies is they have the ability to reach 10, 20 million people. But at the same time, they can air it. They just don't get to control it. Yeah.

And they don't get to make money off it. I don't give a shit about CBS making money on a debate. No, I agree. And I believe the period on the end of the sentence was the, we'll be right back. Watch some more commercials. Thanks for watching. That was incredible, Dan.

I lost my mind. All right. So one of the reasons things got a little tense is because all the candidates suddenly realized that Bernie Sanders has a decent chance of winning a pledge delegate lead on super tuesday that is basically insurmountable for the rest of the primary again to all those listening this is just the math this is not us saying like bernie's gonna win because we think bernie should win it is just go look at the pledge delegate math go look at the states go look at the polls it is certainly it is far from certain maybe even less uh far from certain laughter last night because now joe biden looks like he's in a

good position in south carolina but um bernie is the prohibitive favorite right now just because of the math and the calendar um and for that reason every other candidate directly challenged him more than in any other debate here are some of the greatest hits. Super Tuesday states, one third of America will vote. Do you want to have someone in charge of this ticket? Could I finish? Well, you want to have someone

in charge of this ticket who wants to put forward $60 trillion in spending three times the American economy. I don't think we do. I passed the Brady bill with waiting periods. I led that fight.

But my friend and my right and others have, in fact, also given to the gun manufacturers absolute immunity. Imagine if I stood here and said we give immunity to drug companies, we give immunity to tobacco companies. That has caused carnage on our streets. Bernie and I agree on a lot of things, but I think I would make a better president than Bernie. And the reason for that is that getting a progressive agenda enacted is going to be really hard. And it's going to take someone who digs into the details to make it happen.

Bernie and I both wanted to help rein in Wall Street. In 2008, we both got our chance. But I dug in, I fought the big banks, I built the coalitions, and I won. Bernie and I both want to see universal health care. But Bernie's plan doesn't explain how to get there, doesn't show how we're going to get enough allies into it, and doesn't show enough about how we're going to pay for it. I dug in, I did the work, and then Bernie's team trashed me for it. We need a president who is going to dig in, do the hard work, and actually get it done.

Progressives have got one shot, and we need to spend it with a leader who will get something done. We just cannot afford some of the stuff people talk about. But if you let me finish, if you keep on going, we will elect Bernie. Bernie will lose to Donald Trump and Donald Trump and the House and the Senate and some of the state houses will all go red. And then between gerrymandering and appointing judges for the next 20 or 30 years, we're going to live with this catastrophe. Look, if you want to keep the House in Democratic hands, you might want to check with the people who actually turned the House blue. Forty Democrats who are not running on your platform.

They are running away from your platform as fast as they possibly can. I want to send those Democrats back to the United States House. Let's listen to them when they say that they don't want to be out there defending Senator Sanders. I am not looking forward to a scenario where it comes down to Donald Trump with his nostalgia for the social order of the 1950s and Bernie Sanders with a nostalgia for the revolutionary politics of the 1960s. This is not about what coups were happening in the 1970s or 80s. This is about the future.

This is about 2020. So that was the whole kitchen sink. I do like, by the way, I just noticed this now, how Joe Biden decided to interrupt to say that it was 41 House seats and not 40. 41. 41. That's so funny. That just shows you how on edge everyone was.

They're going to correct people for just one number at a time. So which of these, which of this buffet of attacks on Bernie Sanders do you guys think was most effective? And how do you think overall in the debate Bernie handled all the incoming? That's a great question. I have no idea. You know, it was it was attacks on Bernie in a bunch of different directions. I mean, just me personally, I think the argument Elizabeth Warren is making from progressivism is I think has been a part of her argument. She hasn't made before

saying basically, you know, Bernie is a blunt instrument and I will come in and get into the nooks and crannies of our government. And and you can trust me to do that. And I think that that speaks to her inherent strengths as a candidate. I don't know about the gun attack on Bernie. It's something Hillary Clinton tried. And, you know, I don't know how effective that is. You know, Pete Pete's making a case that I think Biden would also make about vulnerable House members and Bloomberg and Bloomberg. But but, you know, it's interesting hearing Pete make the argument because he always ends up back at some kind of like rhetorical flourish that feels very canned and rehearsed. You know, the politics of the 50s, the revolutionary politics of the 60s, what have you. I should say, in fairness, that we cut them together. Yeah, no, it was later in the debate and the and the house seat one was earlier we put them both

together right but just in general i found him to be uh uh at times you know as he has been in these debates incredibly polished incredibly well prepared uh incredibly quick on his feet while at the same time i think feeling a little bit rote um you know as as for Mike Bloomberg, you know, he's, he's got one debate of practice in, I think he could use a couple more. Tell me what you think. I mean, I just kept thinking about what would have happened if if each of these candidates had picked a previous debate and decided to start making their case against Bernie then and then had time to drive a deliberate message that might have involved earned media paid, earned media, paid media, more concerted messaging strategy. And I think when you do the kitchen sink strategy like that, it can feel like a wash.

I mean, I think a lot of the common thread in a lot of these attacks was probably electability based. And that is probably the easiest argument to make against Bernie just in terms of like freaking out Democrats right now. Pete has consistently gone after Bernie on this line about how you pay for your plans or Medicare for all. I don't think that Bernie handled these attacks that well tonight, in part because it's really hard when you have everybody attacking you. everybody attacking you as you just said fear that one of these candidates whoever we nominate is not going to be able to beat donald trump has sort of been the driving force behind the entire primary and so that's why i actually think that pete's argument and bloomberg's argument which went to electability were far more effective for voters who are wondering um am i are we picking the right person to face donald trump i think? I think Elizabeth Warren's argument is probably the most substantively fair argument,

but that's about once you're governing, she's basically saying I'm going to be a more effective president than Bernie is. And I think she'd make a very good case for that based on the fact that she later talked about the filibuster, how she wants to get rid of the filibuster, and Pete made that argument as well, that he wants to get rid of the filibuster. She is right about the filibuster. Pete is right, and they both hit Bernie for not wanting to get rid of the filibuster. I think Elizabeth

Warren made a great point that in 2008, both of them wanted to take on the banks. She ended up helping create the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Bernie did not. So those are all good arguments about how she'd be more effective governing, but doesn't really say why it doesn't get to the electability fears. I agree with you, Lovett, on the gun thing as well, because that's not so much about electability in the primary either. That's about Joe Biden has a better record on guns than Bernie Sanders, which is true. But the problem is, you know, then Bernie says, here's my position. Right. Which is that's. Yeah. But I do think on the thing, the electability thing, look, there was Vox had two political scientists at Vox.

David Brookman and Joshua Kala had a piece out yesterday and they have a paper out. They fielded a 40,000 person survey, which is a lot of fucking people in early 2020. So just a month ago, they found Bernie Sanders matches up just as well against Donald Trump as the more moderate candidates, which is what most of the polling finds right now. But they dug in and they found out that's only if youth turnout surges to levels higher than it did for Barack Obama in 2008. And the reason is because Bernie loses a bunch of Republicans, independents and Democrats who say that they'll vote for the Democrat against Trump if it's Pete Biden or Bloomberg, but not if it's Bernie, they'll vote for Trump. And so, you know, basically, Bernie is running even with the other candidates against Trump, because he is, because he has strength among voters who aren't always likely to turn out. And the other ones have strength with voters who are likely to turn out. And look, I think, you know, these a lot of these frontline Democrats who Pete was talking about,

these are not like, establishment centists who've been in Washington forever. These are the people that we all talked about in 2018 and we all fought for and got excited about, these frontline Democrats. And they're all a little worried, too. And their worry could be for nothing. They could be wrong. But, you know, I think it is it is we've talked about this, too. There is a concern here that there are suburban voters who we need that may not be willing to vote for Bernie Sanders. And then the question is, if they don't vote for him, which that's OK, he has to then make it up by turnout. And so far, he has not shown in any of the contests that have happened so far that he is bringing in all these new voters.

that have happened so far that he is bringing in all these new voters. Yeah, I mean, the problem, though, is that that case could be salient in the hands of a candidate with a really strong electability argument. So this is the whole it goes back to. It's all relative, right? Not one of them has it. You know, Joe Biden can claim it, but he has performed poorly in the first few states and he has not seemed particularly live or strong on these debate stages. Pete has shown himself unable to appeal to the base of the Democratic Party, which is black voters. Elizabeth Warren has consistently

polled lower than Bernie and Biden when you go to the head to heads, which you should take with a grain of salt, but nonetheless show a delta that's never been erased. Amy Klobuchar has collapsed since New Hampshire, and I don't particularly understand what Tom Steyer is doing there. Bloomberg, the white knight, has been not a good performer. The candidate has not matched the spending of his campaign. And so, yeah, you know, everybody can throw the kitchen sink at Bernie, but it's the same problem as always. No one's provided themselves as the alternative. And none of these people have seen the strength in a fellow alternative to see the reason to drop out and get behind anybody else. Yeah, I mean, I think

on the electability stuff, Pete probably made the best case. I thought he had a very strong debate last night. Like, I agree. The thing that the thing that sometimes rubs me the wrong way about Pete at debates is it's too good. It's always from South Carolina to South Bend. Everything is sort of a speech line. I think if he abandoned that and just sort of did like a common sense messaging frame or just talked a little more normally that it would land better. That said, he did. I thought he was very good last night. I was impressed by Pete. I thought Bloomberg's electability case was the worst, but probably that's because in my head, I'm thinking Bloomberg is probably doing more to help Bernie at this point than hurt him. So it's ironic. Back to the guns thing. Like, I wonder if the guns hit from Biden is more

salient because they're in Charleston because of the horrific mass shooting in Charleston in 2015. But I mean, it's sort of, it's hard to convince me or anyone else probably that Bernie took a vote to defend an industry, whether it was the gun industry or anyone else, right? Like just not in Bernie's DNA. You can make it, you'd say this was like a hackish political choice. Now, I thought previously Bernie had handled the issue better by saying, you know, times have changed and so have I. Instead, this time he led with a hit on Biden's record on voting for Iraq. Yeah, I don't think it was a very good response well that right it was a sequencing problem because then he kind of got jeered and then he engaged with the audience and i think if he had expressed contrition and remorse first for that vote and then went to the

point where everyone on the stage has bad votes that's totally fair but it just it landed off yeah look bloomberg has plenty uh bloomberg biden bernie uh and Klobuchar on that stage have all had bad votes and positions in their past. And we've seen this throughout the campaign and other candidates have who've come and gone, too. And I really think the only way to deal with those bad positions is to say, as Bernie has before on guns, like, yeah, I've changed. And I'm sorry I had those positions in the past because they were bad in the past. They were bad votes. I had those positions in the past because they were bad in the past. They were bad votes. Yeah. Yeah. I do think it was a rare moment where Bernie hasn't done, I think, any of the moments because I think Bernie is so authentic and because he's this old gruff guy who just speaks from the heart that he's not given enough credit for the, I think, strategy and

smart political instincts he often has on the stage. Everybody acts like, oh, you know, he's not super prepared. He's not super thoughtful. But like he does come to these debates with a strategy. In previous debates, he's come to this thing with the strategy of, you know, being magnanimous, being bigger, bringing it back to his core message. And I do think that there were moments where that got away from him a little bit, in part because it was such a contentious and toxic debate. But there were other moments where he praised Bloomberg, I believe, for his gun work, where he praised Biden for his work on some other issues. And I think there was a moment where Bernie remembered to behave like a magnanimous and generous frontrunner, trying to bring the party together. And it was the moments, I think, where he did the best. so i'd say one of the most contentious exchanges involving bernie was when joe biden brought up his comments that he made on 60 minutes about how the cuban government had

literacy programs and those were good despite condemning authoritarianism in general um let's listen to that clip barack obama abroad. He was in a town meeting. He did not in any way suggest that there was anything positive about the Cuban government. He acknowledged that they did increase life expectancy, but he went on and condemned the dictatorship. He went on and condemned the people who, in fact, had run that committee. He also made sure to make it clear. And by the way, I called to make sure I was prepared. I never say in my private conversations, but the fact of the matter is, he in fact does not, did not, has never embraced an authoritarian regime and does not now. This man said that in fact he thought it was, he did not condemn what they did.

That is untrue, categorically untrue. What did you tell him? I have condemned authoritarianism, whether it is the people in Saudi Arabia that the United States government has lost. How about Cuba and Nicaragua? Cuba, Nicaragua. Authoritarianism of any stripe is bad. Period. That is different than saying that governments occasionally do things that are good.

Look at what Barack Obama said. Tommy what did you think about that whole exchange and this uh and this debate over authoritarianism in Cuba in general so this was another example where I thought the the moderators did a disservice to the conversation the question was Bernie you praise the Chinese Communist Party for raising more people out of extreme poverty than any other country. You have a track record of praising these socialist governments. Can voters trust a democratic socialist president to not give authoritarians a free pass? And I just think that was a little shaded. I just think that's such an unsophisticated question.

So first, like the facts on China and poverty. Here's a quote from Barack Obama in 2015. Given China's success in lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, which was one of the most remarkable achievements in human history, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. So it's not offensive to America. I remember that line. To state a fact. I remember him saying that. You can you can say, OK, Bernie Sanders will have an electability problem in some communities, especially in Florida, given the tone where they feel like he is being insufficiently critical of Fidel Castro or Venezuela or some of these other places.

But I hate when we get in these debates and we skip past the facts and the reality first. skip past the facts and the reality first. And, you know, like there's just so many times in politics where I think candidates are told your perspective is true, but you can't say that because it's politically damaging. And that pissed off Barack Obama. That probably pisses off every politician. Bernie Sanders has even less time for it. But I did think like, I don't know that Bernie got himself out of the problem here, which is a bunch of Democrats in South Florida going on the record to criticize what he said about Castro, right? Like that problem will still exist. But it was like, I could feel his frustration where he's in a position where he seemingly has to just, you know, sing the national anthem or whatever, like whatever the

bar is for talking about American exceptionalism and not say actually in in china they did some things well in cuba they did some things well in the america we fucked some things up like we we can be adults about this and have a conversation when i first heard him say this on 60 minutes and i and i first heard the controversy i completely understood what his answer was meant to be right because part of part of what Bernie was saying is they were asking, you know, one of the reasons that a lot of Cuban people didn't join with the U.S. in trying to overthrow Castro is, A, of course, there was horrible authoritarianism and they didn't have the freedom to do so.

But, B, you know, Castro had these literacy programs and this is what authoritarian governments do, right? Like they give out goods and services to people as a way to sort of keep them under their thumb right like it's not a good thing but that's what they do and Bernie was sort of explaining that so I didn't think it was as big of a deal but then he was asked about it in a town hall on CNN the night before the debate he was asked about the debate and if I were Bernie in that situation I would have gone much harder at condemning, being very clear. And he said, oh, I've condemned authoritarianism, but it was sort of a passing thing. And then he was like really defensive about it. I think you could then go on and say Fidel Castro was, you know, ran a horrible regime. There were human rights abuses that were terrible. Like he could have spent a little more time condemning the authoritarians and the dictators before he defended himself. And so I wasn't sure he handled it in the best way. Yeah. Look, I think it's ultimately it was a pretty puerile debate. And Bernie's being

attacked because there are people who think he particularly has a political liability on these things. And there are some who believe he has a genuine sympathy for these governments. That is a and he has denounced authoritarianism. I think he has to just do a little extra work there. Yeah. Even though the debate is childish. Yeah. Look, politics is stupid.

Right. We spent months and months and months debating why Barack Obama didn't wear a fucking flag pin on his suit. Right. The dumbest things in the world will become the focus of this campaign. And you have to know that, prepare for it, and then just deal with it deftly and politically smartly when it comes up. The flip side of this conversation, though,

is Mike Bloomberg was on that stage and he wouldn't call Xi Jinping a dictator and went into this weird defense of the Chinese Communist Party, Politburo, and I was like, that to me was far more trouble. He has to pay deference to the Politburo. It's like are we doing here it's like he's like listen i'm running for president i'm not gonna let it fuck up my business exactly the end but but it's again though it did speak to like i think i think bernie went right to saudi arabia in part because what's clearly it just sort of like riles him fairly like what is this hypocrisy on this stage we've got a we've got america's sympathetic relationship to put it lightly, with Saudi

Arabia. And I'm being criticized for 50-year-old comments and for denouncing authoritarianism while noting that certain left-wing authoritarian governments have done positive things in those countries, which as a country that is a democracy that is based on ideas and trying to tell the truth, we ought to be honest about the ways in which other governments that are different than ours do good things, even when we abhor their systems. But again, it's politics, and the abhorring of the system needs to come through a little bit more. And then it just worries me.

Bernie has to understand this. Again, if he's going to be the nominee of the party, he knows what the attacks are going to be. It's not going to be from Donald Trump, your programs cost a little too much money. It's going to be, you are a socialist. You are in line with other socialist left-wing governments throughout history and throughout the world now.

You are a scary, you know, like all this kind of stuff. And Bernie has a, you know, he said it in his speech about democratic socialism, like the twin problems we face are oligarchy and authoritarianism. That was his whole speech. And he could be a little tougher on the authoritarianism part on a big stage like that. Yeah. Ben and I talked about this a lot on Pod Save the World today.

When you look back at Bernie's history of statements that are now getting dredged up, a lot of what he was talking about in the 70s and the 80s was in reaction to, you know, Ronald Reagan's propping up of, you know, militias and death squads in Latin America to overthrow leftist governments. We should be able to have a little more candor about how fucked up those Reagan era policies were about the CIA, you know, attempting to assassinate foreign leaders in the 60s and 70s. I mean, it's very tough row politically to criticize the United States. We're just not allowed to do it in our political system. And I think that's to our detriment.

Yeah. Campaigns aren't the best moments for history lessons. But, you know, I hear you. So Bernie took the most incoming, but the candidate who probably had the most at stake was Joe Biden, who badly needs a win in South Carolina in order to remain competitive on Super Tuesday and in the rest of the primary. Here's the former vice president making a case for his candidacy last night. I've worked like the devil to earn the vote of the African-American community, not just here, but across the country. I've been coming here for years and years, creating jobs here, making sure that the port, for example, that employs one in 11 people. We put $500 million in our administration just into this county. We've

created jobs for people. The people know me. My entire career has been wrapped up in dealing with civil rights and civil liberties. I don't expect anything. I plan to earn the vote. I'm here to ask and we're going to earn it. But folks, I intend to win South Carolina and I will win the African-American vote here in South Carolina. So a lot of pundits saying last night was one of Biden's best debates. A few post-debate polls seem to agree. I saw a focus group of mostly black voters from South Carolina on CNN last night who also agreed. Most of them thought Biden did the best and some of them were undecided and said now they're voting for Biden. What did you guys think? I thought that was a very strong answer. I thought his point

about earning the African-American vote and not thinking he he's owed it was important. And I thought you could tell by the response in the room that he got a pretty big round of applause there. I thought he had another very strong answer later in the debate about China that was impressive. So there were definitely good moments for Biden. I wonder how much we're grading on a curve this point, because there are just there are times within his own answers where he goes on little asides that end up confusing you more than they help you get to where you're going. For example, I think it was in his Violence Gets Women Act discussion where he referenced hanging chads in Florida. And like, probably 2% of viewers understood what that was. And it's like, just leave that part out, man. Yeah. Look, I do think

this was Joe Biden's strongest debate. I do think that that is a very low bar to clear. And I do think a lot of pundits are now used to seeing how much of a mix there is between kind of strong moments and incomprehensible answers that are very difficult to follow. So, you know, that is my read on this. I do think it was the best he's done. But again, I think if you were watching this for the first time, you would wonder how strong a candidate this is. And that doesn't mean he won't win South Carolina.

That doesn't mean it doesn't appeal to a lot of people and that some of his good answers were enough to get over some of the bad ones. I mean, even that good answer we just played, which was, I think, one of his strongest moments in the debate did come after he got into a kind of defensive colloquy with the moderators about how well he's doing in the polls. So there were just a lot of strange moments mixed in. Yeah, look, I think I thought a lot about this. And I watching that focus group on CNN last night, I was like, this and i i watching that focus group on cnn last night i was like maybe this is just us you know i mean those those people were like he was strong he seemed experienced he can lead he was clear like you know he he of course he does these asides of course he has these answers that ramble

he does you know argue about the polls sometimes bernie did that last debate as well um so you know he has these things but i wonder if it's baked in for a lot of people now. I think it's probably better at this point to sort of assess Joe Biden's performance in the context of the overall primary and where he is right now. So he got a boost today when he was endorsed by South Carolina Representative Jim Clyburn, the third ranking Democrat in the House and the most prominent African-American leader in the state. Clyburn said, I know Joe Biden. I know his character, his heart and his record. We know Joe, but more importantly, he knows us. I do wonder, like, you know, we've been talking about who's it's basically down to it's going to be Bernie and someone who's not Bernie. Right. And right now, the problem for all the non-Bernies is there's too many of them.

And the question is, who is in the best position to sort of take on Bernie, both in Super Tuesday and the primary going forward? And I do think you can make a pretty strong case for Joe Biden. And here's the case, right? Like, I do think if you're talking about who's the better performer on the debate stage, like, at least in my opinion, Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg are the two best debaters on that stage. I think Bernie Sanders is probably close behind them, but those two are the best debaters. Clearly, that's not how it's worked out in the results of the different contests we've had so far or the polls. But they are both very good debaters. And again, I think Pete Buttigieg debated better than Joe Biden last night. But like you said, love it.

If Joe Biden won the African-American-american vote in nevada which is about 10 of the electorate he if he wins south carolina big which means he won the african-american vote there too and we know that uh going forward you need to put it together a diverse coalition of voters african-americans latinos working class whites and college educated whites um out of joe biden warren pete and klobuchar um he probably might have the best chance to put together that coalition yeah that may be true that said i do want to point out that i thought uh mayor pete's answer on racial justice was quite good in this moment excellent he was very self-aware about his failings in south bend. You know, then Bloomberg came in with sort of like,

hey, I know some black people answer that was just your stereotypical, terrible white politician answer. So, you know, Pete has really gotten a lot better as he's gone. Yeah, I agree with that assessment. It's also worth pointing out that that, you know, Bernie has been performing incredibly well with Hispanic voters. Right. You know, I'm not the leader. Of course. Of course. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just thinking. And, you know, the only other candidate that's shown strength with black voters has been Bernie. It doesn't take away from the argument I'm making about about Biden, but it just shows the weaknesses he has, even if he does perform well in South Carolina. The other interesting thing that Biden did is he went after Tom Steyer. Yeah. Which for investing in a private prison and and then called him Tommy come lately, which is what I'll be calling you now. I took offense.

But it is interesting. You know, I think some people were surprised by that until you look at the polls and then you're not surprised at all, because in South Carolina right now, it's Joe Biden in the lead Bernie Sanders second and Tom Steyer third and Tom Steyer is certainly not eating into Bernie Sanders possible lead he's eating to Joe Biden's possible lead it's it was really it was um the moment Tom Steyer said had to explain why he made a mistake in buying a private prison and acting really indignant, like when I bought that private prison, I didn't know how bad it was. So I sold it. How dare you bring that up? It was a reminder like these fucking billionaires. What are you doing here?

And it's an ironic part of this that that this debate is the last opportunity for someone to emerge as an alternative to Bernie and the fact that you have Mike Bloomberg spending hundreds of millions to create a kind of drag on Joe Biden nationally, and Tom Steyer spending millions in South Carolina to create a drag on Joe Biden locally, it may very well turn out that two billionaires and CBS helped make Bernie Sanders the nominee. It was probably a smart strategy for Biden to come in there and criticize Tom Steyer, because he spent tens of millions of dollars in South Carolina and seems to have real support. But once again, it was very muddled execution because he said, my friend on the end of the stage and no one knew who the fuck he was talking about. If Steyer was smart, he would have shut up.

I think he meant Bloomberg. He just walked away from the thing. Tom Steyer jumped in to let everybody know that Joe Biden was talking about him. Come on, Tom. Come on, Tom on tom play some games i do think that i mean look joe biden without uh two billionaires trying to drag him down would have uh problems all on his own yeah but um look there's a poll out today uh in texas and it was a poll they did the poll with bloomberg in the race and without bloomberg in the race and with bloomberg in the race bernie and biden Bernie and Biden are tied in Texas and without Bloomberg in the race uh Joe Biden has a clear lead on Bernie Sanders in Texas yeah so like you know Dan on the last pod said you know Bloomberg should drop out but it is true that like Mike Bloomberg is if Joe Biden doesn't do well on

Super Tuesday but he was close enough to Bernie Sanders uh it will be Mike Bloomberg's fault it will be Mike Bloomberg's fault listen Mike Bloomberg be Mike Bloomberg's fault. Listen, Mike Bloomberg, let's just be honest. I don't think Bloomberg would have won a city council race in New York without money. He's a bad politician. He doesn't like people. He's not a good speaker. He's not deft up there. He told his opening debate joke 45 minutes into the thing and it was terrible. And he told it so poorly people thought he was bragging. The point is like if he didn't have billions and billions of of dollars he wouldn't be on the stage and that's you can't win that way i don't think let's talk about elizabeth warren who made her most pointed contrast yet against bernie sanders but also picked up right where she left off in the last debate

and continue to tear mike bloomberg to shreds let's listen who funded lind funded Lindsey Graham's campaign for reelection last time? It was Mayor Bloomberg. And that's not the only right wing senator that Mayor Bloomberg has funded. In 2016, he dumped 12 million dollars into the Pennsylvania Senate race to help reelect an anti-choice right wing Republican senator. And I just want to say, the woman challenger was terrific. She lost by a single point. In 2012, he scooped in to try to defend another Republican senator against a woman challenger. That was me. It don't care how much money Mayor Bloomberg has, the core of the Democratic Party will never trust him. He has not earned their trust. I will. And the fact that he cannot earn the trust of the core of the Democratic Party means he is the riskiest candidate standing on this all right senator Warren

thank you Bloomberg I have been training for this job since I stepped on the pile was still smoldering on 9-11 I know know what to do. I've shown I know how to run a country. I've run the city, which is almost the same size as bigger than most countries in the world. I am not the least. I'm the one choice that makes some sense. I have the experience. I have the resources and I have the record. And all of the side shows that the senator wants to bring up have nothing to do with that. What did you guys think of Warren's overall strategy last night? I mean, the last debate she came there to rip Mike Bloomberg to pieces. And I think the theory there to me seems like it's something along the lines of I know there's two things that have to happen.

People need to see me as the one alternative and people need to start having questions about Bernie Sanders. And she seemed unwilling in the previous debate to do half of that work. But she was quite willing, indeed gleeful, to do the work of taking Mike Bloomberg apart. I think in this debate, she did the other half of that work as well. I think she made her most cogent and substantive argument for her own candidacy versus Bernie Sanders.

And then I think in part because- But that wasn't the fun stuff for her. No, no, no, no, no. She did it because she had, she said she was saying that because she felt like she had to say it. But she was enjoying the fun stuff for her no no no no she did it because she had she said she was saying that because she felt like she had to say it yeah but she was enjoying the bloomberg stuff a lot more winning the nomination is her job but destroying mike bloomberg is her passion yeah i mean look sometimes i watch these debates and i feel like warren wants to prevent mike

bloomberg from being president more than she wants the job for herself which frankly that speaks incredibly highly of her and her character. And the fact that she is someone who cares about doing the right thing above all else. I thought that the portion of her answer where she started talking about Bloomberg donating to Lindsey Graham and doing that in South Carolina was incredibly effective. I didn't know that he had donated to Lindsey Graham.

I fucking hate Lindsey Graham. That really pissed me off. That's's outrageous now that exchange uh you know goes uh goes on for a while and then you start to hear more about the nda issue and some of the really offensive comments bloomberg made to former employees and that was another instance where warren uh came in with a very tough line and i thought the audience reaction of booing her made it land it's funny and i think that was unfair to her and it bothered me yeah look i think there's a strategic reason i was thinking about this for actually uh because a lot of people were like well she's going after bloomberg too much and and bernie's the front runner and she did go after bernie but But there's a strategic reason to go after Bloomberg

as well for Elizabeth Warren. And that is they are all, all the non-Bernie candidates right now are fighting really hard for media attention. And by her having big moments attacking Mike Bloomberg, she continues to get media attention. The other result of that is she would probably rather Joe Biden do well than Mike Bloomberg do well, because if she continues to take down Mike Bloomberg and Biden does better, that puts pressure on Bernie as well. What she needs is basically for Bernie to have trouble amassing a pledge delegate plurality that's insurmountable or a majority, a majority. And then she needs to just be able to stay in this as long as as she can in hopes of the dynamic change and that as the states continue she picks up more and more delegates and more people see her as an alternative

which is more people see her as a right and i think that's part of the strategy of going after bloomberg there as opposed to just being in a narrow race against her and bernie yeah ultimately i think it's part and i didn't quite get it at first until I started watching it unfold last night. And I was like, oh yeah, now I sort of get why she's doing it. Yeah, I didn't understand it either until I saw them sort of seeming to be telegraphing that their goal is to come out of Super Tuesday

with three people, right? With her, Biden, and Bernie. And then- Which is her ideal set of three. Right. And basically looking at this and saying, if she can get people to see her as the center

pole between the two of them, which I actually think is a substantively fair claim to make, she can somehow, it's a long shot, but somehow build a lead over the kind of states that follow Super Tuesday. And clearly they're all out of money, right? And her debate performance at the last debate raised Elizabeth Warren a ton of money. You had Pete pitching donors from the stage trying to raise money. So I do think like getting in the mix, making a splash, getting donors fired up is a key part of your calculus. Again, though, you're right that the key is just to start winning somewhere. She has to win. You know, and you could argue that she's gotten more media attention than most who have finished where she's finished at this point.

And so, you know, can she pull a third in South Carolina? South Carolina is tough, too, for her, right? Because you would think maybe it could go Biden, Bernie and her. But then, of course, fucking Tom Steyer's there, you know? And so could she pull a third in South Carolina? I don't know. With Tom Steyer spending that much money, it's going to be hard. So then she has to look to Super Tuesday and think, OK, Massachusetts is there.

So maybe she can do well and maybe she has to win Massachusetts at that point. Bernie knows and Bernie's spending like crazy in Massachusetts to try to put her away and he's going to go there. And are there other states that are, you know, in Super Tuesday that are somewhat favorable

to her that maybe she can get second? Maybe, you know, she can get another look? Arkansas. Arkansas, right. I don't know. It's a tough slog for her.

Right, because the goal is to come out of Super Tuesday plausible. Right. It's plausible and that is achievable. She's not going to win it. She's not going to have the most delegates out of it. Just a plausible mathematical argument that makes sense. Yeah. I do think maybe we might look back and think that

the person most screwed by the chaotic nature of the debate was Elizabeth Warren. You know, she came out of the Nevada debate with a really strong performance. They are trying to make the claim that the early vote prevented us from seeing the bump coming out of that. If she had had a strong debate, it might have helped her to continue the momentum we've seen in some of the national polls around her candidacy and their claim that she could be another alternative to Bernie and one that speaks to the ideological diversity of the party. So we've told you before that one of our many challenges is that the contested primary has given Trump a head start in the general. Democratic candidates are spending money against each other. He's spending money on building an enormous field operation. That's why we're launching a brand new fund to help build our field operations starting right now. It's called Leave It All on the Field, and it will help support groups who are putting organizers in the battleground states to make sure we do what we have to do to win. The first group we're helping is called Organizing

Corps 2020, which is recruiting, training, and paying 1,000 organizers ahead of the general election in eight key battleground states. Current Corps members have already been making voter and volunteer calls, canvassing, and organizing on college campuses. All of this work will directly support our eventual Democratic nominee, and every Democratic campaign supports this effort. So please donate at votesaveamerica.com slash field. It's almost March 3rd, which means it's almost Super Tuesday, the day when 15 states and jurisdictions with about 40% of the population have primaries. jurisdictions with about 40% of the population have primaries. If you're trying to make sense of the Democratic primary and what voters are looking for in November, check out season two of my new show, The Wilderness. I talk to strategists, organizers, candidates, and voters in battleground states around the country to figure out what it will take for Democrats to

beat Donald Trump. We went to the four most competitive regions on the road to 270 electoral votes and 51 Senate seats and tried to unpack the complicated and surprising reasons voters support particular candidates or choose not to participate at all. Subscribe and listen to all six episodes of Season 2 of The Wilderness on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Tuesday night was Mayor Bloomberg's second time in the debate stage. Aside from getting pummeled by Elizabeth Warren, he also repeatedly made an electability case, talked about how he's helped elect Democrats and made some pretty terrible jokes. Let's listen.

Let's just go on the record. They talked about 40 Democrats. 21 of those were people that I spent $100 million to help elect. All of the new Democrats that came in and put Nancy Pelosi in charge and gave the Congress the ability to control this president, I got them. Well, I think what's right for New York City isn't necessarily right for all the other cities. Otherwise, you'd have a naked cowboy in every city. Misconception that I'm six feet tall. That one was particularly egregious at the end there

because he was like Tom Steyer got the got the first moment out of the box he had to think on his feet a bit mike bloomberg had all the other answers before to come up with his his uh uh misconception and to come up with his motto and it was a bit of a mess by the time they got to him and he's a really smart guy so it was sort of shockingly uh not the naked cowboy thing what what the fuck was that get out of new york guys the sounding like you said that you bought a whole bunch of members of Congress was crazy. And revealing. Very revealing.

I also do think, look, I think there's a lot of people, I think myself included, that if Mike Bloomberg weren't running for president would be much more generous in describing his work on guns and his work on climate and his work supporting the Democrats that helped win the House. Which was very laudable work, let's be honest. And he is, you know, I think actually, given that we do have this sort of test, a political science test of two billionaires, Bloomberg does offer something more than just money. He was a three-term mayor of New York City. He built an incredibly successful business. So he has a case to make. And I do think sometimes my outrage at someone coming in in the last minute trying to spend

their way to the nomination without doing the political work on the ground, without learning, without growing, without talking to people, thinking that they're above all that work, that real frustration that I feel about someone doing what I believe is undermining to our democracy, sometimes I think makes me forget to be honest about the parts of his record that I feel about someone doing what I believe is undermining to our democracy, sometimes I think makes me forget to be honest about the parts of his record that I think are laudable. That said, you know, I'm glad you're using your money for good causes. You wrote a check, and it's really good that you did that. It's really important that you did that. But what do you want for it? Why do you think because you paid all that money money that makes you a better person or owed in some way our deference he's a rich guy he wants

to fucking be president i i look i appreciate the money he spent i appreciate the causes he supported but he endorsed george w bush in 2004 he supported the iraq war he he he was such a prick to brock obama in his 2012 pseudo endorsement, which he himself, we now know, referred to as backhanded. So, you know, I just I feel like even that's that comment you felt you had to say is paying deference to his money. And I don't I'm not doing that as a voter. No, I'm not doing it as a voter either. I just I guess it's just sort of like Mike Bloomberg as the donor has done a lot of good things. He has absolutely no fucking business being on that stage.

I'll just take it from a pure electability standpoint, because I think if there was a chance that he is the most electable Democrat against Donald Trump, we would be having a different conversation. We could. But talk about not proving that case in any fucking way. we could but um talk about not proving that case in any fucking way like i i think when elizabeth warren made the point that he's in many ways the riskiest uh choice on stage to face donald trump i think it was a very good point because um he doesn't have the trust of the democratic base like you said and he's not now that he's done two debates and i think you could argue that he was better in this debate than he was in the first debate but in the first debate it was probably the worst performance of any candidate i've seen in all of 2020 2019 so it's a low bar right and i think no so i i think that he is we've said this a million times um before he was in the

race that the candidate who needs to take the candidate who's going to take on donald trump needs to be nimble needs to be agile needs to understand the media environment all that kind of stuff and i guess you could argue that he maybe understands the attention grabbing nature of the media environment, and he's able to do that with all of his money. He's got a good team. Yeah, he's got a great team. But in terms of performance, in terms of stepping on that debate stage and making a case for himself, you know, he got out bits and pieces last night once in a while, right? He said, you know, I ran a very progressive city and was still elected three times, even though I'm a former Republican, all that kind of stuff. He made it here and there, but the stumbles the he was unsure of himself the jokes

he's just like he's a terrible politician what you think about him standing on stage next to donald trump and i realize that's not the like apotheosis of like what we should be judging every candidate on like you know because donald trump might not debate but donald trump i think would wipe the floor with him and you know and people it's not just about when we say standing on stage side by side with you, regardless of whether there's a debate or not, you will be sharing the national stage with Donald Trump and you will be compared. I will also say, too, that as we get closer and closer to Super Tuesday, this is you know, there haven't been there've only been a few contests. You know, this can change. Right. Like we're you know, Bernie has an incredible advantage going into Super Tuesday, but it's not over. this can change, right? Like we're, you know, Bernie has an incredible advantage going into Super Tuesday, but it's not over. But I got to say, you know, millions of young people are, you know, believe in Bernie Sanders, and they think they're on the precipice of making them

the nominee. And if someone like Mike Bloomberg were able to buy his way to preventing that, I think you'd see people on the streets, and I think I might be there with them. All right, let's talk about Pete Buttigieg, who still needs to show that he can attract support from voters of color. If he wants to have a chance in South Carolina or on Super Tuesday. He's been a good deal of last night's debate taking on Bernie. But there was also a moment when he was given the opportunity to talk about whether Mike Bloomberg's stop and frisk policy was racist. Here it is. I'm not here to score points. I come at this with a great deal of humility because we have had a lot of issues, especially when it comes to racial justice and policing in my own community. And I come to this with some humility because

I'm conscious of the fact that there's seven white people on this stage talking about racial justice. None of us, none of us have the experience, the lived experience of, for example, walking down the street or in a mall and feeling eyes on us regarding us as dangerous without knowing the first thing about us just because of the color of our skin. None of us have the experience that black women have had that drives that maternal mortality gap that we are all rightly horrified by of going into a doctor and being less likely to have your description of being in pain believed because of your race. Since we don't have the experience, the next best thing we can do is actually listen to those who do. What do you guys think of that answer? And then, you know, what is Pete's path forward here?

I thought that answer was laudable honesty. It showed self-awareness. It was one of his better moments in the debate. self-awareness. It was one of his better moments in the debate. I mean, I do think Pete has a very unsure path forward if he has a bad performance in South Carolina. And the key to that performance has been African-American voters for a very long time. And seemingly, over the course of several months, he has failed to make inroads in those communities. So I don't know that that answer is going to be enough to fix it. I think that's right. I thought he's clearly trying to figure out how to talk about these issues. This is a new tack that he took in this debate to talk about these issues, and I think in a more forthright way, or to try to relate on matters of race in a way that he hasn't successfully done in the past. But he's out of time. He's out of time. And the Democratic nominee will be somebody that earns black votes. And he hasn't been able

to do that. So we will see the result from South Carolina. And unless there is a big change, he does not have a path to become the nominee. Do you feel differently about Elizabeth Warren? First of all, she's her polls have been a little bit better. I mean, they're not national nationally. And, you know, I don't think she's done as well with black voters as Bernie has. But I do think that it's not been as low in a lot of polls as it has been for Amy Klobuchar and Mayor Pete. That's all in the results of the primaries, though. Yeah. Well, you know, Pete has overperformed compared to Elizabeth Warren. That's absolutely true. But I'm just I'm asking this because, again, go back to where, where I started earlier, which is, I think that, that Warren and Pete are maybe the best debaters. I think there has been a set of

mostly college educated white people following this primary very closely who love Elizabeth Warren, who for a while really liked Pete, still like Pete, Pete did well with that subset in Iowa and New Hampshire. And I think some of it could be on warren and pete but some of it is on factors beyond their control on why they hadn't been able to break through with non-college white voters who don't pay as much attention black voters and latino voters in this race right i mean and the only two candidates who really have broken through with those voters are joe biden and bernie sanders who were two candidates who all those voters have know before have known before and have high ID. It's

just an interesting sort of larger structural thing that goes beyond individual candidate abilities. I do think that's true. Again, I don't think we know. We don't know what this race would look like if Tom Steyer wasn't eating 17% of both South Carolina. But I do think that Elizabeth Warren, I think, is better positioned to make inroads than Mayor Pete. And now at this point, given how late it is in the game, Amy Klobuchar and, you know, Pete has not just struggled to win over African-American voters. He has had a consistent liability and attacks on those issues. And I do think Elizabeth Warren has been a bit savvier in her rhetoric throughout the campaign to constantly come back. You could argue she's tried a lot harder.

She has tried a lot harder. So look, you know, the problem we have with Elizabeth Warren is she's underperformed everywhere with everyone, right? And so I do think it's less about a liability with one constituency of the Democratic Party than just her failure to perform as a candidate, which is not a good argument for Elizabeth Warren. Let's talk about Pete's best friend, Amy Klobuchar, who, lucky for him, was a safe distance away last night. It took a while for the moderators to actually get to Klobuchar,

but here she is making her case as the electable pragmatist. If we spend the next four months tearing our party apart, we're going to watch Donald Trump spend the next four years tearing our country apart. So my argument here is that we need to get back to what's happening right now. We have a clear choice of who's going to lead this party. And I am the only one in the New Hampshire debate when asked if we had a problem with a socialist leading the ticket that raised my hand. I like Bernie. We came in together to the Senate. But I do not think that this is the best person to lead the ticket.

And if you want to talk about getting things done and make a comparison, according to Vanderbilt University in Tennessee, last Congress, I was the most effective Democrat in the U.S. Senate on 15 metrics. Bernie and Elizabeth were in the bottom half. It matters. It matters if you can actually get things done. I didn't notice the booze there the first time either. So there were some Warren and Bernie fans in there. It's also just striking how every clip we play,

there's just a bunch of fucking chatter underneath. The crowd thing was bad. The crowd, the other contestants, it was like, you know, like if you board a plane and they're following the rules of boarding, everybody lines up nicely. But if it's pretty clear that they're not enforcing the rules, everybody just piles on and there's only two rules, right? There's just like there's either you're on the plane or you're off the plane.

Everybody wanted on the plane. Yeah. I mean, that was probably one of her better moments, but I didn't think it was anything that was particularly, you know, jumped out at me in terms of the debate. Generally, you know. Yeah. No. I mean, we just look. We just debated sort of,

does Pete have a path? Does Warren have a path? And I think that they're both in a better position than Amy Klobuchar is. She seems to be banking. And they're not in great positions. She seems to be banking. Klobuchar seems to be banking

on doing well in Minnesota and maybe some of the Dakotas. You know, that's not a lot of pledged delegates. Yeah. I also think, you know, she didn't speak for a long time. That's not on her. It's totally unfair.

It's totally unfair. At the same time, there was a kind of hunger that she brought to the debate that she won in New Hampshire. And it just seemed absent. She just didn't seem, she felt, it seemed like she was behaving like a candidate who doesn't exactly see herself as having a path. who doesn't exactly see herself as having a path. Finally, Tom Steyer was also there after failing to qualify for last week's debate in Nevada and getting a pretty dismal showing in the caucus. He's polling fairly well in South Carolina,

as we said, just enough to pose a threat to Joe Biden. And last night he used his fairly limited speaking time to call for party unity. Here he is. This conversation shows a huge risk for the Democratic Party. We are looking at a party that has decided that we're either going to support someone who's a Democratic socialist or somebody who has a long history of being a Republican. And let me say that I got into this race because I wanted to fight for economic justice for racial justice and to make

sure we had climate justice for the american people and i am scared if we cannot pull this party together if we go to one of those extremes we take a terrible risk of re-electing donald trump tom steyer is scared look i i am tom steyer got in the race and I didn't expect much. And he sort of went beyond my own expectations. There were times in the debates where I think he's had good moments. He's clearly committed to a lot of progressive causes. He speaks well about climate justice. He speaks well about racial justice.

And he can talk about reparations really well. But I have to be honest at this point in the primary, I'm just just like what are you doing there man what are you doing there it's also like you know it's it's been a week since bloomberg uh uh uh bellied what's what's it called when you splash into a pool belly flop in the previous debate uh and so for him to say like oh that's what we're choosing between that doesn't didn't feel true that that's exactly the contours of the debate at this point it was weird to put bloomberg out there as the other option like oh so you're the you we should go with the better billionaire and and and also just okay but why you he never made a case for himself why like this idea that that that okay you you don't you think bernie's too far left or can't win or you think bloomberg was a

republican you're the middle of that not joe biden not Elizabeth Warren, not Amy Klobuchar, not Mayor Pete. There's just no argument that he's been able to successfully make for why he should be the choice over these other people. The only argument is money, and Bloomberg has more and has done better in polls with that money. I guess I had a different reaction to Steyer last night. I thought there were a few moments in the debate where he was able to step back and kind of elevate the conversation and do sort of a look common sense this is the real thing we're fighting against which is Donald Trump which you know I don't know that it drew me to his side or made me want to vote for him but it was better than some of the other shit you heard up there he does have a way of um sometimes saying what voters are actually what a lot of like intense Democratic voters who are paying attention to this are thinking.

Like, you're scared. You're wondering why we're not talking about Donald Trump more. Like, he does kind of get that once in a while. But I just think at this point, I think one of my frustrations is that it is getting late and we're still having seven. You know, we added one more candidate to the debate stage from the last debate. It seemed like we were going in the right direction by slimming the debate stage down. Now we're enlarging it again. Yeah. And I should say, you know, I was pretty critical of Steyer just there and I stand by every word of it. But Tom Steyer in previous debates has talked about uniting the

party. I do think he's incredibly heartfelt on the stage. So I am very critical of him and I don't believe he should be in this race anymore. But I have come to see I have a positive view of Tom Steyer after all of this. That's all. All right. Final question. Where are we now headed into, headed into South Carolina and Super Tuesday? I think we're in hell, John. I know. We're certainly in more uncertainty. I agree with you. I wonder if it's not pretty simple, which is the fundamental dynamics of this race are that bernie sanders will be the nominee unless one alternative emerges we come out of this debate which was a messy sloppy uh ugly conversation which no one looked particularly good so i don't know who got helped and if nobody got helped then the situation hasn't changed and the situation hasn't changed bernie did bernie

bernie came away yeah i think that's a fair assessment yeah and i you know uh i do think i think probably not just because of the debate but because of some of the other developments the clyburn endorsement the polls heading into south carolina that biden is in a probably the strongest position he's been in uh for a while uh probably since before Iowa, when he had horrible results in Iowa and New Hampshire. And now Biden sort of has this moment again to basically step up and prove that he's the one to take on Bernie Sanders and Super Tuesday. And I don't think it will force Mike Bloomberg from the race, but at least it could drag Bloomberg's poll numbers down a little bit more. And the question for Joe Biden is, can he can he sort of execute now? Can he step up where he hasn't been able to step up before? Because, you know, time is running short. Yeah, I mean,

Bloomberg got beat up a lot last night, and he's not even on the ballot in South Carolina. So he doesn't even have a chance to show something, show something right this weekend. Uh, I, I would worry if I were Bloomberg, uh, given the trajectory and the momentum because campaign has like at some point you cannot buy your way through getting the shit kicked out of you. Yeah. It is also just, I was thinking about this this morning and it's not a particularly, you know, useful observation at this point, but I do feel, I do think one of the reasons I feel like kind of, I don you know, useful observation at this point. But I do feel, I do think one of the reasons I feel like kind of, I don't know, kind of like a dull fear is not just because of how ugly the debate was. It's how much external, how many external factors have interceded into what

is in this incredibly important primary. It's the mess in Iowa. It's an ugly debate right before South Carolina. Simply the fact that the calendar has proven to be, I think, so compressed in a way that has left these candidates scrambling and unsure how to kind of make their best case. Super Tuesday is three days after this primary. coming in and throwing hundreds of million dollars into kind of scrambling the polls and changing the dynamics of the race and becoming a force, even if neither one of them has really any significant shot of being the nominee. And all of that left me a bit just sort of worried that in this incredibly important moment, we are coming up against so many obstacles on top of all of the ones we know that will be waiting for us once we do have a nominee. Yeah, people are going to have to pull it together once we have a nominee.

No, I mean, look, the freak out about Bernie as a potential nominee this week from a lot of the Democratic establishment, the media, has worried me because we've all expressed concerns about Bernie's electability on this pod, but I think we've expressed them in sort of a, I don't know, an even keeled way. And I was sort of surprised to see the level of concern with, from a lot of Democrats and not like the fucking James Carville types who

start screaming on television because they're just, that's going to be them. But you know, actual democratic officials who aren't sort of prone to this kind of thing. And I think, and look, and part of of this is I think Bernie did a good job. I think Bernie did a fairly good job last night. Probably not as well as he could have sort of fending off the attacks. But I do think Bernie has to keep in mind as he moves forward that his job is going to be if he especially if he's the nominee of the party reassurance.

going to be, especially if he's the nominee of the party, reassurance and reassure a lot of, not just like establishment types in D.C. who are annoying, but like a lot of Democratic voters out there that he needs, that he's going to be able to be the strongest candidate against Donald Trump. So, we will see.

Alright, we will, I don't know when we'll talk to you guys again. We're not going to do a pod Thursday, probably next week. Monday? After the, oh yeah, Monday after the South Carolina results. Cool. Yeah, cool. Alright, we'll talk to you guys again. We're not going to do a pod Thursday. Probably next week. Monday? After the South. Oh, yeah, Monday after the South Carolina results. Cool. Yeah, cool. All right.

We'll talk to you then. Bye. Pod Save America is a product of Cricket Media. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somenator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Reston, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support.

And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos every week.