Pod Save America - Affordable Healthcare is Worth Fighting For

Episode Date: October 3, 2025

After Republicans refuse to negotiate with Democrats on extending Affordable Care Act subsidies, the government shuts down. Dan and Alex Wagner, Pod Save America's newest contributor, discuss what Democrats will need to do to hold the line; Project 2025 architect Russ Vought's attacks on blue states and federal employees; and the Democratic-Republican messaging fight that's devolved into an AI-fueled meme war. Then, the two break down Trump's threats — and Hegseth's grievances — at an unprecedented meeting of the military's top brass, Trump's new political demands for universities, and some much-needed good news about free speech, Fed Chair Lisa Cook, and the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Get tickets to CROOKED CON November 6-7 in Washington, D.C at http://crookedcon.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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That's graza.com. Code crooked for 10% off. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. And I'm Alex. John is off today. Alex, thank you for filling in for him on what is going to be a very big show. Oh, huge. I mean, listen, I don't, I can't, I can't make it unless it's a big show. You know what I'm saying? Yes, that's right. You have, you have. You have a. your deal that it has to be a certain level of news before you'll appear on this podcast.

Is it a national emergency? I'm in. If this is just routine. Good because. Well, we're always in an emergency. So, yes, we're in several emergencies today. So as we will see, on today's show, Pete Hankseth, the lectures America's top military leaders about weight loss, physical fitness, and grooming. Donald Trump tries to extort universities in becoming more MAGA, and Trump loses two huge

court cases. But first, it loomed, then it barreled. and shortly after midnight on Wednesday, the government shut down. The earliest it could reopen is Friday when the Senate is scheduled to vote after members return from the Yom Kippur holiday, but that vote is expected to fail. Democrats have held the line on their demand that ACA subsidies, which are set to expire at the end of the year, be extended, while Republicans have maintained, as Speaker Johnson said at a news conference, that they have, quote, literally nothing to negotiate.

With no bipartisan agreement in sight, Senate Majority Leader John Thune is now attempting to peel off a handful of Democratic senators, but President Trump doesn't seem too anxious to reopen the government anytime soon. He and Republicans seem to be relishing the opportunity to inflict as much pain on as many people as possible. Alex, we are 40 or so hours into the shutdown as we record. How are you feeling? I mean, I think we live in the upside down, Dan, when Republicans are trying to, like, care about, pretend that they care about funding the government and the appropriations process when they've literally bent the knee and like done a blood oath to the man who is completely vaulted over the legislative process and wants to do nothing but strip the

government down to its studs. So yeah, I mean, it feels weird, right? It's a complete inversion of the party's normal stances. And that is odd. I am heartened to some degree and we'll talk more about this. But the fact that Democrats are hanging together and for the most part that they've done something differently because I think these abnormal times call for unusual measures. I think the strategy itself is pretty complicated. And I worry that the American public, you know, until Yellowstone closes down, we have a history as a country of not caring probably enough about federal bureaucracy and what happens

to federal workers. they exist in a kind of liminal space, I think, as far as the American imagination. But I think it's good that all the stories about this shutdown begin with an explanation about what Republicans are trying to do to American health care and that we are having at least the beginnings of a conversation about health care costs and what the big, beautiful Bill Act has done and the sort of priorities of the Republican Party as it concerns the welfare of the most vulnerable in our society. So that part seems good. But I'd like to see a lot, I mean, I'd like to see a lot more coordination and creativity and ambition as far as, you know,

where the Democrats are at, at least from a messaging perspective. Yeah, we'll get to the message in a second. You're right. There is this as very awkward dynamic, which is the Republicans are the ones who've initiated every other shutdown in recent American history and generally want to see the government, they want to, in their own parlance, drown the government in a bathtub. And they, and so they are, they're so insincere and awkward in arguing for the government to be reopened. Like that doesn't, like, it just not compute for them. And the Democrats have always been the ones who have argued that the government is important and should stay open. And like, we can have this long epistemological argument about who's really at fault here.

But Democrats are the ones who are demanding something in this process, but also the ones who seem to care the most about the federal workers who were furloughed or the people who were impacted by the projects or the initiatives that are being temporarily shut down to the shutdown. So everyone is a, you're right, it's like, that's a good way of putting it. We're sort of in the upside down where no one really kind of knows. They're playing the opposite role. Yeah. And that's uncomfortable for them. And so, you know, it's, we are, as I said, we're 40 hours into this. What is probably most notable to me is that there really is no conversation about how to solve the problem. Republicans have no interest in having that conversation.

They're not willing to compromise. Compromise equals surrender. And so there's, there is no like gang of 12 off meeting somewhere or anything else. It's just we are, everyone's just staring at each other. Maybe that'll change after the weekend. But right now, we're just sort of stuck in this place. And it feels like we can be here for a while. Well, yeah, there, I mean, and there's the fundamental reality that like in the interim, Republicans under the leadership of both Trump and Russell Vote at OMB are just doing the thing they've always wanted to do. It's like playing chicken with someone who very badly wants to drive a car off a cliff, whose lifelong dream has been like, Thelma and Louis style,

let's gun the engine and go. And you finally have been given an opportunity to do that. And they're not trying to stop. You know, so that's a sort of, that's a structural problem in any strategy in this situation. Yeah, it's been the structural problem in every shutdown where where the positions are reversed, which is we actually are responsible. We actually are care what happens to people. And if they don't, it's very hard. You can't negotiate with people like that. And then this time, they're theoretically the ones that serve the government and they can't pretend to actually care. Like, as we're watching this, right, Trump and Republicans are trying very hard to project confidence. They are, it's all bluster and swagger from the Trump White

House on down. The press, you know, it seems to believe, maybe even some Democrats seem to believe Republicans have the upper hand politically in this. Do you agree? I mean, I don't think it's a great sign that, like, within 24 hours, they've peeled off three Democratic senators, right? I think it's, you know, I think the fact that Trump has ordered federal agencies to have sort of banners on their website saying, this agency is not able to operate at full tilt because of a Democrat-led shutdown. You know, he is doing things that are clear violations of the Hatch Act, but like, whatever, the Hatch Act went the way of the dodo bird. eight years ago. Well, they fired the people who enforce the exact. Exactly. So that's no longer an issue. But I mean, the lawlessness and the sort of wanton, the lawlessness and the rules not applying to them are really being, you know,

it ratchets up to like a degree that we haven't seen before in typical fights, right? Like they will weaponize every part of the federal bureaucracy to have a partisan fight with Democrats. They have a president who's utterly reckless and they have a real sociopath who's like picking and choosing which blue states to fuck over hardest given an opportunity to shrink the federal workforce in a period of like government shutdown. So, you know, I do think they have some real leverage here. Having said that, I mean, Dan, the polling is good for Democrats on the issue of health care for right now. And I think, again, I go back to what I said at the beginning. I think it's good that that's what the stories have to lead with. This is why Democrats are doing this,

because this is the reality for many people, if not the majority of Americans who are on either the exchanges or whose insurance premiums are going to rise, which is like everybody who's in a pool that's affected by fewer healthy people being in the pool. So it's a lot of the country. So, you know, I think they at least for the moment have a hand to play and on an issue that really matters. I mean, they obviously have the substantive. upper hand here, right? They're the ones who get to decide what goes on the websites. They can change the White House comment line to be Caroline Levitt's voice attacking Democrats as they have done. They can make threats like a bunch of two-bit mafiosos about how they're going to

hurt these people or hurt that people. It's like really nice government you have there. Too bad you shut it down. Now we can destroy it. Like all of, they can do all of that stuff. But I do think Republicans think they can only win and Democrats think they can't win, sort of in our mentality. And you can see it in the body language of Democrats in this. Like a lot of people, I mean, there are exceptions, but a lot of the people are out there speaking. It feels like they are, they were either dragged into this or they're just like waiting around until the bottom falls out and we lose. And I think the Democrats have a much stronger hand here than we think. One, we're doing this over an incredibly popular issue. I mean, one, we have an advantage

on health care. It's the one issue we have an advantage on these days. But on the specific question of extend the Obamacare tax credits. There's a Kaiser family foundation poll from earlier this summer would show that huge majorities of people, one of them extended, large majorities of Republicans, and a narrow majority of self-identified MAGA Republicans think they should be extended. There's a Washington Post poll out this morning, which shows that on the question of who's responsible for this shutdown, 17 percent more people think it's Trump and the Republicans than Democrats. And that's consistent with a bunch of polls we saw before it. It could change now that we're in it. But I think,

Every Democrat seems to think that we're, we are in a messaging fight or political fight against the Donald Trump that won the popular vote in all seven battleground states in 2024. That is not the case. Donald Trump's poll numbers today are not good. All the people he made grounds with, if you look at the New York Times Sienna poll from this past weekend, or sorry, we look at the New York Times Senate poll from earlier this week, have abandoned him. His games with young people gone. His game with Latino is gone.

his games with non-white, non-college-educated voters, gone. And so Donald Trump's approval rating right now at this exact moment in time is almost exactly what it was the week before the 2018 elections when Democrats picked up 40 seats. If we were in a shutdown fight with that Donald Trump in October of 2018, we would have thought we would kick his ass. And so we do have to adjust our mentality. There's a learned helplessness in how Democrats are approaching this, some Democrats, I think, are approaching this to things we can't beat this guy, we can't win.

we're too inept, we're too insecure in our position. And I think we actually can, but we have to have the winning mentality to do it. Does that make you feel any better? Yeah, totally. Can you just put that on my voicemail so I can play it, like, tomorrow or next Monday? We will add it to the crooked comment line. That's what we need. But also it gets at kind of beliefs that the American public hold about each party.

And I think that Democrats have an advantage there, right? Like it is sort of a truism in American politics that Democrats care more about people. Sometimes that comes back to bite them in the ass or seen as caring about too many people or too small a group of people in too big a fashion or caring over being strategic with the nation's finances or whatever it is. I'm not saying any of that's necessarily true. But the impression widely and deeply held is that Democrats care more about the health and welfare for the American public.

And they are fighting a battle on that territory. And I think that's how you win, right? Like you don't have to reinvent the wheel here. People understand this to be something that's a priority for the party, and it's sort of, it's a natural extension of party priorities for them to be fighting this fight. They don't have to pretend to be anything that they aren't. And so they should take advantage of that. As you mentioned, three Democrats have been peeled off. Catherine Cortez-Mastow, John Federman, and Angus King and Independent Congress with Democrats all voted to open the government the last time there was a vote. Are you worried that Democrats could fold before too long, or do you think Schumer can keep them in line? I mean, how fast can you record that voicemail and send it out? That's right. That's a good point. Send me back to the Senate caucus people.

Get him back up on the hill. They've been saying, where's Fifeer on the hill? I think the fact, I just want to say, I think the fact that Schumer and Jeffries are even doing this is a testament to the degree to which they want to hold the coalition together. They're doing this because progressives were like, we're not fucking doing this again. We need to extract something. We need to fight. we need to have a backbone, we need to go. And I think that they should be, you know, I think there should be some acknowledgment

of the fact that they, you know, they're really trying to hold the party together and they're doing something that is gutsy, right? I mean, and very risky, high risk, high reward. So that's a positive, I think, data point in all of this, that leadership is, you know, willing to take some risks in the sake of sort of preventing intra-party immunity and and holding folks together. I think the pressure is going to be extraordinary. I think John Thune's going to keep calling for votes on this every day.

And he's going to try and smoke out one more Democratic member. And it's going to be an enormous strain on the coalition. But listen, this is where all facets of the Democratic coalition from activists, grassroots, voters, you know, people that care about the future of our society collectively, they need to make their voices heard as much. I mean, right, it can't just be a battle that's. thought by the lone soldiers on the hill. Like, I really feel like this is where people who are listening to this podcast and people who give a shit about their parents and their parents' health care and their health care in the future need to be part of keeping the sort of beach ball in the air to use a weird club med metaphor. And, like, if that can happen, it will give them strength.

But, like, the more we second-guess the strategy and say it's a losing hand than say, you know, they're going to cave, the easier it will be for them to cage. because they're on the front lines and Republicans are going to use every tactic they can to try and fracture the coalition and they don't need that many more votes. Though, like, there's always a fear that Democrats will capitulate like that as possible.

Senate Republicans also have capitulated and shut down. Senators generally are uncomfortable with all this. They'd rather be like doing something, or at least previous generations of Republican senators would rather be doing something than shutting down the government. But there are some dynamics that lend themselves to staying in the fight. one is the last time there was a shutdown that Democrats kind of sort of initiated.

It was the, we call it the Waffle House shutdown over here at Crooked Media, but it was over, it was to, it was in 2018, I think. Yes. To 20, it was in 2018 to try to demand that Trump helped the dreamers and the Democrats folded over the weekend. Now, what led to the surrender that time was all, there were a whole bunch of Democrats in Huff seats who were up for election in 2018. And they had won in no part of this. In this situation, you only have one incumbent Democrat in a very tough race. And that is John Osloff in Georgia. And he seems to be fully on board with this strategy. And so you're not going to get that sort of pressure. Because the other people that are like targeting who could bail is like Jean

Shaheen who's retiring. And it's like, is she really going to, because she voted the last time keep the government open. Is she really going to do that again? It's like I've seen people who are retiring, take a tough vote to help other other members. I'm not really sure who she's helping here if John Osloff is okay with this. And so that, that does help. And the way that Trump and the Republicans are overplaying their hands so much, you're refusing to negotiate, as we'll get to trying to exert pain on as many people as possible, like that doesn't help, that like hardens people's positions, doesn't soften. So I don't like, I'm not only if I'm being polyanish about this, but I think that Democrats are going to, are willing to, are willing to

stay in this for a while because Trump is already screwing over doing all these terrible things when the government was open. So it's not like there's like one world where the grass is really green and there's the world we're in. It kind of sucks in both places. And so I think there's a, I think there's a chance that Democrats could stick. And I think they probably also understand that Schumer has a lot of stake in this. And if they bail before he does, then he, like, he will, like he's already, his poll numbers are already terrible Democrats. He has a potential primary in 2028, they would be doing him a great disservice in sort of an act of disloyalty if they abandoned the fight before he did.

Yeah. And like the fact that he got into a fight is a testament to the degree to which he wants to. I don't know. The word isn't appease, but like I said, he is trying to be a unifying figure and all this. So maybe don't mutiny against the captain. Do you have any ideas on how this possibly ends other than the government stays shut down indefinitely? Dan Pfeiffer's voicemail is going to change the – I mean, I guess the best case scenario is the White House offering a deal on extending ACA subsidies and the government opens,

reopens, and everybody tries to take credit. I mean, I feel like the fact that the White House is making overtures towards, you know, how much the president cares about health care by negotiating with Pfizer or whatever, you know, these sort of fig leafs that they're offering to the American public as rejoinders to the contention that the White House is populated by cruel people who don't care about Americans and their health care. That's a testament to, they know this is an issue that they could lose on. So maybe there's some deal to be made there. But I mean, I don't think that this is going to reframe, you know, I think an important part of this if you're in the legislative branch is an assurance that the shit you pass in Congress doesn't just get overridden

by the president. And they're trying to stop that process from happening again. The rescission nonsense? Because like what's the point of Congress if the president can just be like, yeah, you know what, never mind. Whatever you did, that doesn't count. I don't think that's going to get solved in this. I just have a very hard time that Trump or the Republicans are going to accede to that demand at all in any way. But I mean, I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that some kind of semi-sanity and mutual vested interest in this can lead to some movement on the ACA and everybody can just agree that they're going to take credit for it and pretend like it was their handiwork and that it's, you know, the Democrats get something meaningful and good out of it and don't

harm the party in the process and maybe are emboldened to take big moves the next time there's an important fight. I guess. That's my hope. That's my hope. But I don't, I mean, like, or the filibuster could end. And this could be like an utter disaster. That is one option. The Republicans could, they could end the filibuster to pass this bill. And they took, like, somewhat unprecedented that moves around the big beautiful bill which were

kind of akin to eliminate to deal to they were basically they were willing to go nuclear in some ways to get the big

beautiful bill the budget bill whatever we're going to call it out they could do that here Trump does not like the filibuster

I'm not sure there are enough votes among the Republican caucus to do that right yet but maybe you know weeks from now

that could possibly be the case I think one possible outcome here and this is once again me possibly

being Pollyannish, which is something I've never done on this podcast before. I don't think of you as a polyana-like figure down. No one does. Hey, I'm happy to have you wear that crown. Yeah, I just maybe, I don't know what it is today. I, I slept better last night than that before. It must be you. It's the, it is the true pleasure doing this podcast with someone other than John Favreau has turned me into a glass half full kind of guy. Lightness in your heart. Yeah, okay. Yes. So one way this possibly ends is that Trump becomes convinced that extending these Tax credits is good for him. Yeah.

Right. Earlier this summer, a memo went around that showed just how critical it was for Republicans' chances in the midterms to extend these tax credits. The author of that memo, or one of the two authors that memo was Tony Fabrizio, his pollster, who obviously is working for the insurance companies on some sort of insurance company funded project to get this done. But, like, if he sees that this is good for him. politically or the increase in premiums is bad for him politically and could hurt the chance of the midterm, then you could see him cutting a deal and trying to take credit for it. That's one, that is one possible way this is. I feel like that's our best case scenario, right?

Yes. Yeah, that's probably the best case scenario. Now, there are some questions here, like, does, do we, do they open the government for some period of time a week, two weeks, a month till after the Christmas holidays to have a negotiation around this to try to get something done? Like, is that one pressing? And then we're right back at it. Because they still, once they get the CR, they still have to theoretically pass,

come to a longer term budget agreement to actually fund the government for more than some short period of time. And that's the point where they're going to have to have the rescission conversation, where Democrats, like, if there's going to be anything other than short-term CR's ad finitum, then you're going to have to have some. some provision which says the president cannot unilaterally undo this deal because there is something very, very wrong with a budget process that requires 60 votes to pass the budget, but 50 votes to undo the deal.

Totally. And so we'll have to see what that goes. But I think there's a chance. If Democrats hang in there and they message better and we'll get to the messaging in a bit, I think there's a world in which they could come away with a victory here of some kind. Listen, Dan, I just hope that my jam band, CR's forever ad infinitum. like never takes off. You know what I'm saying?

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Russ Vote, the former architect of Project 2025, turned OMB director. Trump made with the vote earlier today to discuss which, quote, Democrat agencies vote would permanently cut during the shutdown. Vote is also threatened mass firings at federal agencies and said that layoffs would begin in a day or two. Additionally, vote immediately froze $8 billion in funding for a series of binary clean energy infrastructure projects in predominantly blue states, as well as $18 billion in funding for an infrastructure project in New York City, which happens to be the home of Democratic leaders, Hakeem Jeffries, and Chuck Schumers. For all intents and purposes, Russ's vote appears to be relishing

the opportunity. A shutdown presents something Senator Mike Lee says he's been planning for quite some time. Let's take a listen. This is what they're doing. They're doing it deliberately. It's going to harm them because Russ Vote, the OMV director, has been dreaming about this moment, preparing this moment since puberty. Russ vote has a plan and that plan is going to succeed in empowering, further empowering Trump. This is going to be the Democrats' worst nightmare and it's of their own making. Alex, do you want to unpack what Senator Mike Lee has to say here about Russ vote and his motivations? Thanks for putting the image of Russ vote in puberty in my mind, Mike Lee. Don't thank me. Can I see that? Also, doesn't that explain it all? Like, oh,

this is what Russ vote was thinking about during puberty? Well, yeah. That explains today's modern Republican Party, right? That's what you were thinking of in those crucial, critical, developmental years slashing the size of the federal government. I think he's essentially suggesting that for Russ vote, this is sexual. This is a wet dream. Let's just say it's a wet dream. I'm sorry, I said these things. Can we delete it?

I don't know. Did we just name the podcast? I don't know. Gross. I've barfed in my mind. This is the problem. This is the problem, right? I mean, first of all, this is not normal.

It is not normal to be torturing commuters in New Jersey. in New York and punishing 220,000 workers in California and targeting Minnesota's energy grid. Like, that's what's happening here. This is like wanton and cruel and highly unusual to have some, let's call him it, a weird guy who has had a passion, a zeal, an anti-bureaucratic, anti-federal government, anti, I don't know, just a zealot at the OMB, giving him full. re-reign to wreak havoc and own the libs in like the most like potentially disastrous fashion as it concerns the role of the federal government and its impact on American lives.

Like these are projects that will make us resilient, energy independent, clean the air, make us competitive internationally with superpowers that are in many ways way ahead of us. Like this is literally shooting ourselves in the feet hurting us because you just want to like just because torture is fun. This is like the Republican fiscal hog version of like finding someone's cat and skinning it. Right. Like this is not. Jesus. It is. It's like, it's hard about putting an image in right. I'm sorry. It's like the wed dream, the skin cat. It's also disgusting. Everybody's turned this podcast off so you can I can just like get real. But it is it is so foul. And I don't think we should let the cruelty that is inherent in all of this go unnoticed. And and like at the same

time, it's deeply problematic, right? This is what I mean about playing chicken with a group of people who have been, like, just dying to gun the engine and drive the car off the cliff. Like, this is Russell Vote sitting there, like, twiddling his fingers and deciding which Blue State and which lib program to unwind and, like, can't kneecap next. And that's scary. This is a project he's had in mind for, you know, Project 2025 turns out it's totally real, Dan. And that guy is now pulling the levers. So, I mean, I find the whole thing terrifying and not just because this is the fantasy sad since puberty. Yeah. It's, I mean, it is worth noting that throughout the entire campaign, Donald Trump, the performance are like, Project 2025 is a hoax. And then Donald Trump truths out

today. I'm meeting with the head of Project 2025, Russ Vote. Oh, oh, you were full of shit then. I see. I see. I think these guys, I think Russ Vote and Donald Trump, the rest of these guys are either full of shit or they're dumb as hell because you can cut all these programs for blue states like you can theoretically do that because the Supreme Court will let Donald Trump do anything. But guess who's up in November? It's not Chuck Schumer in New York. It's a bunch it's Mike Lawler and a bunch of very vulnerable House Republicans. All these blue, the House is going to be decided in blue states. Yep. And so if you want to, if they want to use this opportunity to attack blue states, that is going to,

that is going to be such a self-defeating stupid thing to do, which I think they are trying to talk a tough game to try to convince Democrats to fold here. Like, if you read the fine print, a lot of what they're doing is freezing funding. You know, like in the case of the New York infrastructure project, they're doing a DEI review of the funding, and they can't do it because they furloughed all the civil rights people

who do DEI reviews. And so I do think they are a little bit, trying to talk tough here to try to scare Democrats. There's also real legal questions. There's a report today in the Washington Post that the agency lawyers have told the cabinet secretary as you probably don't want to do these layoffs because it probably violates the law. Although,

let's be, that hasn't stopped them in the past, but you know. Yeah, they might, I mean, they might fire them, like, they might fire them a court may put them back.

Another court may undo them. And then we go to the Supreme Court. And that outcome, we sort of know what happens there. But once again, Again, they are talking a better game than the hand they're actually. But I mean, even the talk is sick. Like, this isn't how it's supposed to work.

You don't get to do this. You don't get to just torture people as a partisan mechanism. And I just think it's, it's to see the glee, even in that Mike Lee clip, the joy. Yes, right? It's so, it's so cruel. It's so dark. It's so fucked up. And, like, it shouldn't be, it just, I mean, I just, I marinate and in, and, and just,

the sort of precedent that sets and the sort of the new age of this Republican Party. Back in April when Democrats decided to fund the government, one of Schumer's big arguments was he was very worried that vote would do to the government agencies exactly what he's doing right now during the shutdown. Does this give you any second thoughts about the strategy? I mean, I have second thoughts about the strategy all the time. And at the same time, I think it was the only strategy that could have been pursued. You know, I just think I have a real aversion to business as usual because nothing here is normal. And it could all, you know, it could blow up in everyone's face. But I do think you have to try and do something bold and

different, something that sort of resets the conversation. You know, it's risky. I have no idea what Russ vote's going to be able to do. I think that you make a really important and astute point about how politically this could be costly on just a policy level and then a political level and you have to hold on to that in a moment like this. We're just in Terra Incognito. So like, yeah, I mean, maybe Chuck Schumer was right, but the last time Chuck Schumer saved Republican asses, that didn't go over so well either. And it's like we can't keep, like, Democrats can't keep doing the same thing over and over again because the administration is acting with impunity. and this is the first time

there's a little bit of soft shoe back and forth with Democrats over an issue that really matters. Yeah, I mean, there is no risk-free options here. Yeah. Right? As we saw from funding the government,

there was great risk in that. I think of all the things that happened with government funding since the Democrats funded it this spring. It is like you just have to be willing to take some risks. And if you truly believe we are in an extreme.

time facing an extraordinary threat, then you can, and you have to respond in kind. You can't respond in just simple, ordinary politics. And like, like, you're right. Like, this could go terribly. It absolutely could go terribly politically. It could go terribly politically. It could go terribly substantively. It's bad for the economy. There are people who are going to be hurt. But things are not going great the other way either. And you just have to take risk. I can, I don't know what the downside is here. I know there is some upside. I know there is some in the alternative universe where you just decided not to fight and funded the government through the election, I know exactly what the downside is, and I know there's no upside.

So this seems to be the, you know, like you need in these moments to have an high variant strategy, and this is a high variant strategy. Even like, we're playing with live ammo here. Like, I want to be very clear about that. Like, I remember sitting in the White House going through all the damage from a shutdown. It is very real. We take it very seriously. But you also, in the other hand, have 15 million people who's in premiums are going to

skyrocket. And they're not going to be able to go to the drugstore. and get medicines. I can be able to go the doctor. People will... They'll go bankrupt because of chemotherapy, as AOC explains to us. This is very real. And I will say, is someone that spent a lot of time with furloughed federal workers

in the last prolonged government shutdown who were people who had been working for the federal government for decades who were in line at soup kitchens to get canned food because they could no longer afford their groceries. There is a group of people who are doing the hard work of government who are going and get real fucked for every day this goes on. And they, those lives are real. Those people are real. And man, it is a thankless job, especially right now, filled with peril. So like, you know, my heart and my thoughts go out to like the reality they're living as well. I mean, just think about that some of these people were told when they left their offices on Wednesday, or on Tuesday, I guess, anticipation of the

shows on Wednesday, to bring their work phones with them so that they could get a notice about layoffs if one were to come. Yeah. Like, imagine the anxiety that gives people because the whole point, like, one of the, like, if you're working for the government, you're going to have great benefits and you're going to have job security. What you're not like, but you're going to make less money than people would make for doing similar jobs in the private sector in many cases. And now you have your job security. Now you live constantly on the precipice of losing your job. At any moment, one of these MAGA, you know, doge goons can just fire you, you know, undermining a lot of why you're you took that job together. It's a terrible, terrible situation.

I will just know. And as part of this fight, we should try to protect these people, right? That's one of the things we're trying to do. The reason my mother came over here is because my grandmother was offered a job with the Library of Congress. And like the U.S. government got my family out of Burma, got my grandmother a job. And like the reason I'm on this earth in some ways is because of the federal bureaucracy and federal government work. And that was like one of the best periods of her life. They were saved from a country that was, you know, and continues to be in the middle of chaos because of government work. And it was good work and it was important work. And it like offered her a pension and just to see, you know, how those workers are treated now.

And like the gutting of that service is just so sad and also shameful because it's one of the things that I think has made this country great. In the absence of negotiations, the shutdowns really become simply a messaging exercise, which side can exert enough political pain on the other to force compromise or surrender. The Republicans have been out in full force all week, consistently pushing their admittedly ridiculous talking points about Democratic demands. Let's listen. The Democrats said instead that they wanted to give health care to illegal aliens instead of keeping critical services provided for the American citizens. That's what happened plain and simple. What they have done instead is to shut down the government because we won't give

billions of dollars to health care funding for illegal aliens. That is. is what has actually happened. They are holding our country hostage. They are holding the American people hostage for this wildly unpopular proposal to give taxpayer-funded benefits to illegals and now they're lying about it and they know it. Meanwhile, Democratic messaging has been a bit all over the map.

Some are talking about health care. Some are trying to pin the blame for the shutdown on the GOP. Others are very mad about it some racist AI videos. As just one example, the Democrats' official TikTok account posted a video explaining the shutdown using cats. One bright spot, though,

has been this great video AOC and Bernie Sanders put out of them explaining their view on the shutdown. Let's take a listen. Why didn't you vote for this clean CR to keep the government over? Well, there's nothing clean about it. This is one of the dirtiest tricks that is being pulled on the American people right now. Starting today, October 1st, and throughout the rest of the month, Americans across this country are going to start getting notifications that their insurance premiums are up to doubling. a time when we are already paying by far the highest prices in the world for health care at a time when people can't afford it right now.

And so Republicans want us to rubber stamp that and we're saying no. We need to stand up for the American people. We need to stand up for our health care system and if they want our votes, they need to make sure that we're protecting every American and making sure that we can do what we can to continue to make health care accessible, affordable as we work to be. make it a human right for all. All right, let's start with the Republicans. Alex, can you just set the record straight on why there are claims about health care for illegal

aliens as complete net or bullshit? People who do not have their papers to be here cannot access federally funded health care. They are not eligible for Medicaid, Medicare. They can't go on the ACA exchanges and buy health care. There is a small group of migrants or immigrants who are here who are considered lawfully present who have access to this. But there is no world in which Democrats are fighting to get undocumented. immigrants access to federally funded health care. It is a lie. It is also the most obvious,

like, they're running the only play they have, really, in moments of, you know, crisis, which is talk about illegals. Just like, if something's going bad, like, talk about illegals. And this is, you know, like the people who were lawfully present in this country who were able to access some federally funded health care are people like refugees, people who have papers to be here, temporarily DACA recipients. This is a small group of people who were made ineligible under the last funding bill or under the buildback, under the one big beautiful, God, can we just call it something else? They call the Republican budget bill. The Republican budget bill. And Democrats are seeking to restore their eligibility, but they are by no means trying to create a new set of

subsidies or access to health care for people who do not have papers to be in the country legally. And it's a lie. And it's also race baiting. And it's It's also just the, you know, more of the Republican bullshit to distract from what they're really trying to do, which is make, you know, redistribute income to the top, you know, 0.01% and make everybody else pay for it. Yeah, there's a couple things here. One, if Donald Trump had a poker tell, it would be when he starts lying about immigrants. Yeah.

Like, that's a sign when he knows he's in trouble in some way should reform. If, like, that was the caravan in 2018. This is such, like, I just, I know everyone thinks they have the strong. strongest hand, but this lie is so just bold and brazen. And it's indefensible. Like, they can't even go on regular to talk to actual reporters without getting just, just massacred on it, right? Like, it just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. It also really, it's a real window into what they truly believe, which is any immigrant, anyone who's here, you know, has legal status is not a real person.

They are inhuman. They are, they do not count. And that, like, this is, like, they like, they like to pretend like, oh, we're fine with legal immigration. And it's illegal immigration we don't like. Well, but in this case, they are treating people who are here legally for, you know, under an array of programs and saying they should not have access. They should not be here.

And we're going to just call them illegal. Right. They're just lying about people because in their mind, someone who was here legally, went through the process, who waited in line, did, you know, filed a legitimate amnesty claim, came over here for humanitarian reasons because what's happening in Ukraine or Afghanistan or any of that, that they are exactly the same as someone who crossed the border illegally, right? That's the same. It is like, that is what is in their head. That is the unspoken truth to their actual position. And why are they the same, Dan? Why are they the same? Because they weren't born here. Like, it's, Basically, it's nativism, like, and they're not white because remember we're welcoming this, the South African immigrants here, the white South African immigrants here. Afrikaners, yeah. That's another conversation for another time. Yes.

Do you have any worry the American people will buy this bullshit? I don't think so. I actually think this is one where it's like, huh? I mean, nobody's talking about that. Democrats have, like, it's, again, this goes back to, like, I think one of the structural advantages Democrats have in this fight. Like, they are seen as a party that gives a shit about the sick and the poor and health care. Like, they're, it's called Obamacare.

You know what I mean? Like, it's a party plank. And the Democrats are saying unanimously and with one voice, this is about fighting for, you know, ensuring that costs don't go up on insurance premiums and people have access to health care. And I think the canard that this is, you know, Democrats trying to pay for, you know, trans. undocumented migrants, like health care is so, it's such a convoluted and pathetic and destructive narrative. I just, I have more faith in the American people. And I just don't think it takes, it's already baked in. Like, I think people understand why Democrats are fighting this fight, because they've basically been fighting this fight since I was five, you know, like this has been

going on for a while. Yeah, I think, I'm not sure this is a believable claim that they would actually do this. I, to the extent that, you know, where it has some potential efficacy, it's in this idea that Democrats are extreme on immigration issues. This is, you know, this is sort of a similar reason why the, that really infamous gross trans ad about Kamala Harris was effective. It was not that people really thought that she was actually going to support taxpayer-funded gender-affirming care for undocumented people in prison. It was that this is an indication that he's out of touch. And so they're trying to play into that stereotype, I just don't think this is their best argument, right? This is the argument

that gets their base fired up. Their base is already fired up. This is the argument that gets Fox News all fired up. Fox News is already fired up. Like, where, like, if they have an actual political task here, it's that most people think the Republicans are in the wrong here. They think they're in the wrong on the shutdown, that they're actually responsible this because they're, because they control all of government, unwilling to negotiate. And they think that they're wrong on the policy issue. And so they're having an argument that is not of a piece of what the actual conversation is. And like this, sometimes I, you know, you've been on it. I do this recently returned YouTube show, political experts react, where we look at political

ads and content. And the ads that come from Republicans are often, like they have Fox News brain on it, which is you can tell that the person who made the ad gets all of their information of right-wing media. So they're making an ad that speaks to that audience. And I think this argument is a little akin to that. Well, and I also think, you know, people can be, if it's an issue like immigration that doesn't necessarily touch people at the kitchen table. They can be lied to or the truth, the truth can be muddied. But people give a shit about their health care premiums. People give a shit about their access to doctors. And they will find, you know what I mean? This is not, people get to the bottom of it. And I think it makes it harder to lie about what's actually

happening here. All right. I've put this off long enough, but it's time to talk about everyone's favorite topic. Have you put it? I mean, I'm running out of room here, but everyone's favorite topic, Democratic messaging. Yeah. Alex, what have you made about the Democratic messaging so far, effective or not so much? I mean, listen, let's talk about the, what do we call it, a public service announcement from AOC and Bernie. I thought it was great.

Yep. It's like more of this. Like, why has this been so elusive? Like, plain speak, declarative, informative, and authentic. Really clear, that's what, that's what this should be. And Democrat should be fanning out doing all kinds of this. it's just so abundantly clear in that video that this is the truth. And I just think it's actually really helpful. I mean, I think they need to do more of that. No more like click baity cat videos.

Like this is a really serious topic. There's a way to just get at it in a succinct fashion that really underscores the gravity of the moment and the reason Democrats are taking a stand. And I think that video does it beautifully. Yeah, I would say, I don't mind the cat video. It's like for a particular audience. And I'm a cat lover too, Dan, but. It got, last I checked, I had like nearly four million views on TikTok. That's because people love cats, Dan. They love cat. Cat videos have always said, well, the Internet.

It's one of the, some of the first viral videos involved cats. But, like, I think the, I'll get to the Bernie video, AOC video at a minute. But I think there's sort of three things that Democrats could do better in their messaging. The first is, stop trying to blame the Republicans for the shutdown. Like, we're, they're constantly in that. like there's so much of our content is like the Republican shut it down. This is the Trump shut down. It's the MAGA shut down. No one cares who's responsible for it. Right. We can debate who's responsible for it, but that's not the point. That is an argument for Politico,

punchbowl inside the beltway media and the sort of value of shaping that conversation is so diminished in this media environment. It's just like it's not what people care about. Second, there is this like tension like related to that there's this tension between saying that you know this fight's so important but you're not the one who started the fight like if you care so passionately about it be proud of the tactic you use to start the fight like we care about all we like we the government's very important is we don't want to hurt any these people but the stakes here are so high for so many people that we have to take this extraordinary step to do it totally like lean into it like there is sense of discomfort with the actual thing we're doing, which is like, we really want to fight,

but we don't want to tell people we want the fight to come to us. Like, pick the fight. You pick the fight. Be proud. You pick the fight. It's a righteous fight. Totally. It's a principled fight. They have principle in their favor and they should stand on. Yes. Lean, lean into it. So that's one. Two, stop confusing your legislative strategy and your messaging strategy. Your legislative strategy and the possible exit ramp here is some sort of deal in the ACA tax credits. Like that, like, Like, everyone, ever, I'm sure every, like, wishy-washy member wanted to know from Schumer Jeffries, like, if we go in this, how do we get out? And that's the most obvious thing because it's really the only thing there might possibly

one day be an agreement on. But that's your legislative strategy. The way you achieve your legislative strategy is to win the messaging war. And the way you win the messaging war is to make this entire thing be about a bigger conversation about that you are the ones fighting to lower health care costs. You are fighting for people. Like, that is your strategic goal. Every moment talking about something else is a missed opportunity to talk about the one thing.

Totally. That's why the AOC Bernie video is so good because it makes it very clear. Here's why we're doing it. Here's why it's important. It's a big fucking deal. So we have to take on this big fucking risk to do it. And like this, we're just so, we're like tiptoeing. And this is sort of the third thing.

And this is like a problem with Democratic messaging a lot over the last couple of years here is we're playing not to lose. right? Like we're not confident in our position, so we're not being aggressive about it. It's like we can win this fight, act like you win this fight, be aggressive about it. Well, and if you've learned anything

from the Trump years, play to win, believe you can win, have the posture of a winner. Yeah, we just, we really struggle. Like, there's a learned helplessness that we have gotten. Like, in fairness, it's been a rough many years, right? like it's just for for Democrats we've gotten beat like the 2024 election was a scarring event

it's just people are strong with it just like be more aggressive about it it's like what haley bar I think it was haley barber keep the main thing the main thing the main thing is health care go at it with everything you got a haley barber reference for just your welcome listeners he a one-time governor Mississippi but he was a very he was the rnc chair very powerful Republican power worker for many years. The main thing, the main thing. All right, one quick thing before we jump to break. The Supreme Court's new term is off to the racist, and surprise, surprise, it's a mess.

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videos Trump posted of Pakeem Jeffries this week. The videos featured Jeffreys in a sombrero and mustache and are set to mariachi music, which is definitely not racist, the videos have sparked strong reactions among Democrats, the White House has been defiant, even playing one of the videos in a loop in the press room. Here's Jeffrey's response, followed by Vance at a White House presser on Wednesday. Could you give us your reaction to that Trump posted video tonight? It's a disgusting video, and we're going to continue to make clear. Bigotry will get you nowhere. We are fighting to protect the health care of the American people in the face of an unprecedented Republican assault.

Oh, I think it's funny. The president's joking and we're having a good time. You can negotiate in good faith while also poking a little bit of fun at some of the absurdities of the Democrats' positions and even, you know, poking some fun at the absurdity of the Democrats themselves. I mean, I'll tell Hakeem Jeffries right now, I make this solemn promise to you that if you help us reopen the government, the sombrero memes will stop. If there's one person who knows funny, there's Jay Vance.

It's true. He leads with humor so often. Alex, what do you make of this whole thing? I mean, he was also asked if he thought the, Vance was asked if he thought the video was racist or bigoted and said, I don't even know what that means, which is like the first true thing. He probably doesn't. J.D. Vance has actually said. I mean, I got to say, we've come so far as a country that the president, and I come so far, we've

descended so far the president of the United States is posting and defending what is just on its face, racist garbage. And it's not funny. And the fact that the vice president of the United States can smile and laugh at that. I mean, I just, this is one of those things where I spent time with, you know, voters of color leading into the 2024 election. And a lot of them that I spoke both were ready to make peace with Trump. But you got to hope that this is the kind of shit they remember, you know. And you don't have to be a voter of color to care about this. In fact, you shouldn't just be a voter of color to care about this. In fact, more white people should care about this. But God, I hope they pay a price. It is not okay. And it's not funny. And it just,

it gives the gives, it sheds light on the central, you know, tactic and the strategy here, which is, you know, race bait, make this about illegals. Make, you know, poke fun at the Democrats of being a party that cares about brown and black people. Make that a joke. Make the, the, the welfare and the wellness and the survival of the weakest and among us. and those who've been, you know, just dealt the worst hands, make their, the, their unhappiness and their pain a thing to laugh at. I mean, it's so awful. I got to say, I thought Hakeem Jeffries did absolutely the right thing, speaking to my friend and former colleague Lawrence O'Donnell, you know, saying it's disgusting, saying it's racist, and then pivoting back to this is why

we're in this fight and just going back to keeping the main thing, the main thing. But it is very hard to just let this pass and pivot to, you know, why Democrats are. this fight because it's just appalling. It's appalling. Yeah, it is absolutely appalling. The fact that this is like, it's getting attention, which is why we're talking about it. It's been a big topic on Capitol Hill. But the fact that it, like, is something that happened and is not the biggest story in America really shows, as you mentioned, how far we've descended or how much Trump has moved the Overton window on what's acceptable conduct in public society. There's always attention with everything that outrageous that Trump does is you have to pick and choose.

Like, what are you going to fight about today? And I think Jeffrey's did that right. Like, I mean, if you listen to the full clip, Lawrence really set him up because before we, before we cut in here, there's a long thing about how this got like basically your point and how discussing it is. And so Jeffrey's responds to it. And I think that's great. It's about Jeffrey's he should respond to it. But in general, every moment that we are talking about something other than our fight to lower health care for people is bless what Trump wants. Like, that's why they're doing. That's why they're leaning into it because they want to take us down that path. And I just think we have to be disciplined about it. You should condemn it. And as Jeffreys did, pivot right away. Like, we need a little bit of, like, turn off our shoulders approach to these things, which is, which is, like, Obama had to do this all the time, right?

He was constantly in a, like, there is an example of a Republican member of Congress who called him boy in a meeting during a shutdown. and he had to decide like whether that was going to be a public issue or not because like we were fighting to save the Affordable Care Act at the time like there is like you just sort of have to decide and like we can decide like whether to give Trump the outrage he wants or not like and so we have to pick and choose the moments to do that would you say Dan as a veteran of the Obama administration that it's like a refashioning of the when we when they go low it's not that we go high. It's like when they go low, we wipe the shit off of our feet. I just don't even like, as we keep marching. I don't even know. So many mixed metaphors, because it's not

necessarily trying to be above it. But it's, it's, I mean, it's, it's, it's not accepting the invitation to, to descend, I guess. I don't, I just think you to, I think you have to pick and choose, right? There's a moment, there are moments to do it and moments to not. And like, and And, like, you can't ignore it. Like, he's the pretty, like, Hakeem Jeffrey's got to ask the question. Like, you can't pretend like the question didn't happen. You can't do a Republican. I didn't see the video, right?

But there is, like, as you said, stay focused. The main things, the main things. Stay focused on. Haley Barber, you see? Now you're quoting him. Yep. We're back to Haley Barber references in one podcast, which is the first two Haley Barber references in the history of Fonsea America.

That's why I'm here. Meanwhile, on Tuesday, we saw more authoritarian lunacy from this administration. If you recall Secretary of Defense, because I won't call him Secretary of War, Pete Higgseth called more than 800 generals and admirals to Marine-based Quantico. There was a ton of very scary speculation about the purpose of the meeting, where we headed to war, where was their imminent attack. But as it turned out, this was mostly a Ted-style lecture where Hague Seth sauntered around the stage, ranting about the wokeness of the military, military codes of conduct, and the

physical appearance and fitness of soldiers. One defense official told Politico that it was the definition of, quote, could have been an email. But Trump also decided to make an appearance where he was a bit more, let's say, a fascistic about what he expected from the U.S. military. Here's Hague Seth, followed by Trump. No more identity months, D-E-I offices, dudes in dresses. We are done with that shit.

To our enemies, F-A-F-O. I've never walked into a room so silent before. This is very, don't laugh. Don't laugh if you're not allowed to do that. You want to applaud, you applaud. And if you want to do anything you want, do anything you want. And if you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room. Of course, there goes your rank. There goes your future. Last month, I signed an executive order to provide

training for a quick reaction force that can help quell civil disturbances. This is going to be a big thing for the people in this room because it's the enemy from within. And I told Pete, we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military, national guard, but military. Trump said it was going to be a nice meeting. Did that sound very nice to you? No. I mean, it sort of like toggled between Orwellian McCarthyism and like metrosexual grooming conference. Like, like, it was just like at one point, the Secretary of Defense said fat generals are a bad look. And I was like, what? At the same time, the president of the United States is like, and we're also waging war on half the country.

Like, which is like, what the fuck was that? I found the whole thing incredibly disturbing, Dan. Yeah, it's just, let's start with the Pete Heggseth part here, which is almost in the history of the United States government, no person has been less qualified for the job they have than Pete Hexeth. he's the weekend anchor of Fox News. I'm a former weekend anchor, so like let's not malign the entire category, but I like to think my work is better.

I have to say, I have a lot of respect, and there are a lot of places in the cabinet where I can see you working. Well, I mean, I'm assuming for the next administration as Secretary of War. Yes, I feel like if you're a Secretary of Defense, let's say you were. Let's say that as a former cable weekend anchor. No, no, network. It was network. Let's just be clear.

It was network. Oh, you're a network. Oh, come. And then you can be vice president, yeah, put you in the line of succession. But, like, the idea that you would act like this in front of the most senior members of the military, like, it just requires such a lack of self-awareness that it's stunning. Like, you're going to lecture these people, these people who've risen to the top of the profession, serving their country in a time of war on shaving and running laps. Like, it's just wild. I mean, to have the audacity to tell a room full of generals in military dress, fat generals are a bad look, who the fuck does Pete Hegsa think he is?

Yes, exactly. It's wild. It's truly wild. While most of Trump's speech was his normal rambling word vomit, we do have to talk about his line about using U.S. cities as training grounds for troops. And who exactly do you think he meant when he said, the enemy within? What's your reaction? me for sure. I mean, this is not okay. This is the language. This is the stuff that really needs to disturb everyone. I mean, this is like, I mean, they're not even, like, they're not even

keeping a secret. They're completely unconstitutional strategy here to, to launch a kind of like semi-civil war against blue cities and states, universities that are seen as bastions of liberalism. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's war against our own people and announced by the President of the United States at Quantico in front of a room of, what is it, 800 top military brass. This is a very alarming set of statements that he made. And it, like, there was a high degree of concern and outrage when President Trump talked about vermin and adopted the rhetoric of, you know, some of the worst autocrats and dictators of the 20th century to be using this language again and to be targeting Americans. in a military setting, as Trump is ordering federal troops to cities, you know, across the country, like, I get, we're in this, we're in this, you know, we find ourselves constantly in this state of panic about so many things that Trump does. But this seems to be actually his raison d'etra. Like, I think there's just such a desire to punish and own those who disagree

with him in the most acute and perverted fashion, and he's here announcing that and doubling down on it. And yeah, it's, I mean, it, I don't, I don't know what the right expression was, but it's like the full, the culmination of something conservatives have been obsessed with, I think, since they first sort of felt the rising tide of liberalism in the 1960s and 40s, actually. In many cases, Trump's bark is worse than his bite, like, as a, you know, as a as we saw in D.C., a lot of these National Guard people he sends there and picking up trash on the mall or sitting around doing nothing, right?

It's the people who, like, the National Guard troops themselves are pulled away from home to do nothing. It's not like they're just making a political statement. But the fact that he has no problem, like he doesn't even, he's too dumb or a historical or has too much dictator envy to see the danger. Like, you just have to not understand what this country is about to think that it is okay to talk about in this way, right? Like, that's the exact opposite of what America's supposed to exist for. And it's like, it's just, it's a very disturbing window into his mentality that's like

the danger of which is exponentially magnified by the fact that this entire party is going to be fine with it, right? Is that there is no, there is no bulwark to that. I mean, we're really counting on those people in the room who would not applaud to be the ones who will stop this from going too far. That's a scary place to be. We're in a scary place. Ponsave America is brought you by Zbiotics pre-alcohol. Let me tell you, if there's a surefire way to wake up feeling fresh after drinks with friends, it's with pre-alcohol. Sure is. Zibiotics, pre-alcohol, probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic.

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This week, the White House rolled out what they're calling the Compact for Academic Excellence, a 10-point set of demands that require universities to cap international enrollment at 15%, ban the use of race or gender in admissions or hiring, and reform or eliminate, quote, institutional units that purposely punish, belittle, or even spark violence against conservative ideas. Universities that signed onto this agreement would get preferential access to federal funding, Those that do not, well, pretty sure you can figure that out. So far, the White House has only invited nine schools they believe would be good actors to sign on.

Those schools include Penn, USC, MIT, and what I believe to be your alma mater, Brown University. Alex, what do you make of the short list? And why is Brown on this list? I could insert some dumb inside Brown jokes, but I'm going to save you from that, Dan, you are correct. I'm sure we have many Brown listeners. And I've always thought that Brown is a very liberal place. Yeah. And was that wrong about that?

No, you're not. It is a liberal place. Are they too liberal for grades? You know what? That is a canard. Okay. That's not true. You can take things past fail, but I did choose to get grades.

And they were okay, kind of mediocre. This is why you'll be Secretary of Defense one day. This is what? Also, I have like a lot of thoughts on grooming. Yes. Well, perfect. look at these are these are places that have signaled that they will play ball you know there are bastions of liberalism that trump has targeted in other respects and they have signal that they will play ball and you know the thing about you know making concessions to trump if people haven't fucking figured this out yet is you give him an inch and i'll ask for a mile like nobody's ever done you're not done till it's over and he tells you when it's over um so it yeah of course this is the short list but i mean damn this is like it's also It's also embarrassing for higher education, right? It's so dark. It's so bad. Autocrats love targeting universities because that's where people get educated and are opened to discussion and debate. I remember in Burma, I keep bringing it up, but one of the first things the military did it after student-led protests in 88 was crackdown on universities. And to this day, they have really curbed tons of institutions of higher learning. They've shuttered universities before.

Nobody likes places where people learn and discuss and debate and are exposed to new concepts and ideas and people because that's a losing hand for autocracy and dictatorship. So it's not surprising that our, you know, small-handed autocrat here in the United States wants to tackle higher ed here. And he is assisted by conservatives who have been, you know, obsessed with this for decades, right? Like, I mean, people forget, I've been writing a book for the last, however, I mean, such a dumb idea. it's coming out next year. We don't have a name for it. But one of the things that I've been going back at is the origins of the Federalist Society. The Federalist Society started as an alt college group by a bunch of conservatives who were like, there's no place for us. It's an alt campus group that's effectively started by conservatives who were like, the liberal campuses suck.

We have nobody like ourselves. There are no like-minded individuals. What can we do to reclaim a little bit of territory for ourselves. And look what their federalist society is now, right? Like, there has been a focus and an obsession with the liberalism that is pervasive on university campuses and trying to rein it in at all costs. And this is, like, just the most exponentially extreme example of that agenda coming to fruition. Yeah, it's deeply dangerous. It is the, it's essentially extortion. Yeah. is if you do these things, if you become more conservative, if you adopt our political principles and our policies, we will give you federal money. The federal money you need to fund

your research projects, your, you know, everything else. Like, we will do that for you. And if you don't do it, then you will suffer competitively compared to other universities. And this is, as you point out, this is the lesson of if you give in once, you're going to give in again and again And again, and because these universities can't stick together, some of them will immediately accept this, and because they think that it will give them an advantage over everyone else, then will force other people to do it. And you'll end in a very bad place. Like, this is, it's just, if universities cannot fight for the First Amendment, who is going

to do that? Totally. Right. It's just like the media company is giving it, right? Or the law firms. Or the law firms, right? If law firms won't sue to protect their First Amendment rights, if universities won't fight for academic freedom and freedom of speech.

If media companies won't fight for freedom of the press, who is going to... That's the ball game, dude. That's the ball game. And it's all because of money. Like, let's just remember that principle is more valuable than money. And the universities have endowments. And this is like, this is the fight.

This is the existential fight for academic freedom. Don't mistake it for anything but that Brown University. You get a fail on this one. Perfect. Okay. There's been a lot of bad news this week. and in this podcast. But it hasn't been all bad news.

We've been quoting Haley Barber. Yes, that's where we are. We've been quoting Haley Barber. So I thought we take a moment to talk about some good news. So first, the Supreme Court announced that it's allowing Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook to remain in her post while they consider Trump's case to fire her. The White House withdrew its nomination of E.J. and Tony, the controversial and unqualified hack.

They chose to lead the Bureau of Labor Statistics after Republicans, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski refused to even meet with them. On Tuesday, a Reagan-appointed federal district judge issued a damning ruling of the Trump administration's effort to crack down on free speech. The ruling concluded that foreign students have the same First Amendment protections as U.S. citizens. The judge also responded to a threatening note he'd receive, which went, quote, Trump has pardons and tanks. What do you have? Young's response, dear Mr. or Ms. Anonymous, alone I have nothing but my sense of duty. Together, we the people of the United States, you and me have our magnificent constitution.

And in a final 13-page section, the judge took Trump to task by breaking down the misdeeds of his second term. Young ended by writing, and I think this is very powerful. I fear President Trump believes the American people are so divided that today they will not stand up, fight for, and defend our most precious constitutional values so long as they're lulled into thinking their own personal interests are not affected. Is he correct? The White House, of course, called the ruling outrageous. Seems pretty spot on to me. What did you think? Yeah. You know, I think this is the sort of question we're all asking ourselves,

those of us who are still asking, it's like, where is everyone? You know, and I think that there's a real profound fear. I'm not going to say sinking suspicion, but I mean, where is everybody? You know, you just rattled off a group of institutions that should be fighting this for their own self-interest, right, but have decided that the money is just too easy to come by? I don't know. I mean, I think that the lower courts, like, hats off to them. These are the guys that are, you know, to actually, we should say, like, for these federal district judges to do what they're doing and to be very clear and pointed in their criticism of this administration is not an easy thing to do because they know what's coming at them. These judges are under threat. They are putting their own lives, the lives of their family, at risk. And they're doing so on principle. And that's really heartening, right? Like, that part of the courts. system is really heartening. But you do feel like it needs to be undergirded by people and other institutions that have their back. And I really do worry about him. I mean, I don't like that it ends with the question, is he correct? That scares me because it's something I think we're all

asking ourselves right now. But I think it's a remarkable and courageous document. And, you know, I really hope this, you know, as with all these things, we don't just end up back in, you know, John Roberts lap where, you know, instead of a little white cat, it's just like whatever animal enables the Trump administration. That's such a weird visual I just painted. I'm sorry. It's okay. It's okay. It's been a weird week. You know, I think as we look at this, it's easy to ask the question like, where is everyone? The people have responded, right? Like, the people within the United States have responded. The no King's Day protest is one of the largest protests in American history. People are showing up for things. They are protesting. They are actually

there. The failure here is from elites. It's from the law firms. It's from the CEOs. It's from Wall Street. It's from some Democratic leaders before this fight. And those are the people who are not standing up. The grassroots of the Democratic Party, the pro-democracy movement in this country, are responding, right? They are pushing back. They are like living their values in getting like in volunteering, organizing, donating, protesting, campaigns. The question is, are the elites going to do it? And thus far, this is like Trump's authoritarian power grab

has been enabled entirely by cowardly greedy elites. Like that is exactly what's happening. And I want to hear more Democrats make that argument. Yeah, the shame, the shame argument. It's powerful. I mean, it's shocking as a member of the media, as someone who went to Brown, you know, like with friends in law firms. Like, where are you guys? How can you not see this for what it is? This is your

future. Another bit of good news. The Pope is still woke. Yeah, baby. On Tuesday, Pope Leo offered reporters a glimpse into his political views. The Chicago-born Pontiff was asked about an apparently controversial plan for a Catholic institution to give Illinois Senator Dick Durbin an award for support of migrants. Despite Durbin's support for abortion rights, here's how Pope Leo responded. Someone who says I'm against abortion, but says I'm in favor of the death penalty is not really pro-life. So someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I'm in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants in the United States. I don't know if that's pro-life. Is Pope Leo our best chance in 2028?

Yeah, he is. I mean, I think that this is the ace in the hole. Oh, you, you, you, GOP, you want to get rid of the division between church and state? Well, how about Pope for president, snitches? Let's go. He's like an amazing Pope. I mean, Chicago, run it back. Why not?

I think the minute Leo was that the smoke came out, it was black smoke, right? Black smoke when they chose the Pope. I think it's white smoke. Right. It's black smoke when they haven't chosen. Sorry, I'm a bad, lapsed Catholic quite obviously. This is the kind of stuff we need more of. We talk about institutions, religious institutions, are just as important.

in this fight as media institutions and legal institutions in the court system, like all hands on deck. And this pope is clearly a deeply ethical person. He has an incredible pulpit, quite literally, to speak from. And I think it's really important. It reframes issues that should matter to all Americans outside of partisan lens. And I think that's essential, especially the conversation around immigration, I wish Democrats has had as much gumption and empathy as this pope to talk about immigrants in a humane and and and and loving way right um so hats on can you say hats off to the pope miters off to the pope either way Oprah Pope Coupra Cuddo Cobra 208 could we do it can you spin that look can you make that happen popra I think that that doesn't that doesn't need to be

spun that is that seems like you nailed it. Pope and Oprah can't lose all right that seems like a great place to end it that's our show for today. Alex will be back with a new show on Sunday, her first Sunday interview episode. Alex, who you're talking to? I am talking to the wise, provocative, profound writer, author, feminist Roxanne Gay, who has some really, I would say controversial, but compelling ideas about whether or not civility has a place in American politics right now. So we're going to be getting into that as well as a host of other things. I'm super excited. I didn't realize I had to work on Sundays here, but they say there's some free RX bars coming my way.

So I guess I'm going to write it out. Well, I'm looking forward to that episode. Thanks. Alex, thanks for filling in for John. Thanks to everyone for listening. And Alex will be back in your feet on Sunday. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast,

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