Pod Save America - Are Trump Voters Feeling Buyer's Remorse? (With Sarah Longwell)

Episode Date: April 26, 2026

Polls showing dropping support for Trump are one thing, but what do his voters actually say when you get them together in a room? Tommy talks to Sarah Longwell, host of The Focus Group Podcast and publisher of The Bulwark, to get the latest on what she's hearing in the field: who GOP voters blame for high prices, what they really think about the Iran war, and the surprising candidate capturing their interest for 2028.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to POTSafe of America. My guest today is an old friend of mine. She actually stole my car literally 25 years ago. She gave it back. It's fine. Without guessing it. Without gas in it. Longstor. But today, Sarah Longwell has left a life of crime behind her to become the publisher of the bulwark. You can find her on excellent podcasts like The Next Level, the Focus Group. Sarah, it's great to see you. Thanks, man. It's great to see you. You are in my office, just so people know. It's very nice. It's a very professional, very nice office here in D.C. And I'm so grateful to be here because I wanted to take stock of this political moment. We're like six months out from the midterms. We're all letting ourselves get excited. But you do more focus groups with voters than anyone I know, like several a week.

Yes. And I want to ask you about those conversations because we're all sickos who, you know, hoover up the latest polls. But I think you can really learn interesting insights by listening to voters. What a crazy concept. It's almost like they're the people who comprise this democracy of ours. It's almost like they make the decisions. And by the way, if listeners are as obsessed with this stuff as we are and they want to learn more, you should right now pause the podcast and pre-order Sarah's book,

How to Eat an Elephant, one voter at a time you'll learn about Sarah's life, her time in politics, the insight she's gleaned from literally thousands of hours of focus group conversations with voters. And also, if you pre-order it now, what that means is when the New York Times bestseller list comes out, she will be on it. And like Don Jr.'s triggered two or whatever bullshit book is getting bulk ordered by the R&C will get bounced. That's right. So I think this is important. It is important to me that no SuperPack is buying this book to get it on the list, that it is made up of real people in large part because I want people to hear.

And sometimes people are like, oh my God, do I have to listen to voters? And I'm like, yes. Was you doing a JVL impression right there? I was doing a JVL impression, yeah. Sarah in the Bullwark team, they're independent pro-democracy media, so are we at Crooked Media. Check out everything the Bullwork is doing. Go to Substack. They have amazing podcasts.

They do written content. You should be a subscriber. I've been a subscriber for a long time. It's a good. Nice of you. I mean, it's great stuff. And by the way, please follow POTS of America here on YouTube and consider becoming a subscriber to what we're doing here. Go to crooked.com slash friends because as Sarah knows, subscribing is like literally the best thing you can do for independent media.

Advertising is great, but it is not enough. And if you subscribe, you get ad-free episodes, you get bonus episodes about Save America, deep dives into polling with Dan Pfeiffer. So it's a good deal. Cricket.com slash friends. Okay. So, Sarah, let's start with what you're hearing about Donald Trump himself. On the focus group pod, you guys recently talked about, it was like Catholic Trump and Harris voters. You talked about it was Trump voters who were angry at him.

There was an interesting Iran war pod. There's tons of great episodes. People should check out. But like, what are the big themes and problems and concerns that kind of keep a rise? Yeah, okay. So the easy one is, so we asked the same question at the beginning of every group. How do you think things are going in the country? There is only one answer to that question that we are hearing right now. Great. Two thumbs. It is bad. Nobody thinks things are good, including some of the people who still support Trump. Like, they don't think things are going well. People who are still riding with Trump just tend to have hope that maybe they will start going well at some point because you got to trust the plan. Tommy. You trust the plan. We might get there. But, But the big thing is just costs, right? Everybody talks about, how do you think things are going in a country? People say bad.

Gas prices are high. We're suddenly in a war with Iran. You know, I wanted Trump to deport criminals, but he's doing all this other stuff. And it's this pervasive feeling. In fact, we just did a focus group. And I really liked this group. It was people who are still approvers of Trump. People who are still rocking with him, that 32%.

I've got my bushline, right? But people who are, let's call it below the bush line, people who are like, I'm still in it with Trump. Surprised I managed to get that by you without you giggling. I did smile. Do you know that I coined that phrase entirely innocently and only until I said it to Tim Miller? And the reason I'm laughing is because I was texting with Tim about this today and I asked him for Apo about you. And he responded, the bushline. Yeah.

Well, they bastardized things that I take purely. You're so innocent with compared to him. So, but the people who are still riding with Trump who think things are going great, even they think that the state of the country, like the way that we relate to each other, is awful. Like they feel like the country is a powder keg. They feel like we're too divided. They're scared about civil war. And so there's this like deep pervading sense or pervasive sense of unease.

But the prices are the things you hear because when prices are high, people's anxiety is high. And they've been high kind of now for a long time. And so people are starting to crack. And I got to tell you a year ago, what we would hear from these voters is, okay, like, Trump is going to fix it. And like, Rome wasn't built in a day, but I think he's going to get there. And like every week, you just see sort of the sliding off of the optimism from Trump voters that say, I think things are going to get better. Like, they just see things getting worse. It jives that that I've heard from others.

Like, folks probably heard of swing left. They are a great grassroots organization. They're doing this big canvassing project called Ground Truth, where they don't do like a walk list. It's not like the Democratic Party saying like, hey, knock on these Democratic doors. They're knocking on every door and they're trying to have longer conversations. And, you know, issues rise and fall, right? Like the Iran war happens and all of a sudden that spikes in what they're hearing. But the number one issue, like lingering pervasive issue, is about the integrity of the political system itself.

It's about trust. And that ranges from corruption. It's people feeling like politicians lie and they're self-dealing. It's that the system is corrupted or captured by corporate interests. And it's just, you know, it's interesting that they're hearing that. You're hearing the same thing. Like, that is like the mood music. Yeah.

And I think like to the extent that we now take, our signals are also bifurcated and everywhere, but they all come together in this thing that we now call vibes. And one of the things I talk about in the book is the rise of the vibes voter. And like the vibes are bad and Trump's vibes are bad. And it's funny, the way you just said it, which is around corruption and things, a lot of the things about doing the focus groups is you get a lot of specifics into that. So, like, what are people angry about? Well, they're angry that Trump lied and said, we weren't going to get into these stupid wars. And now we're at war with Iran.

They're upset about Epstein. Epstein comes up a lot. I think a lot of people thought, like, this isn't a real story. This isn't actually going to matter. But for a lot of the voters, Epstein isn't just. about Epstein. It's about the idea that Trump was supposed to be somebody who was going to be transparent, right? And he was going to put people in his cabinet. There's a secret cabal running everything, but we're going to tell you the truth. We're on your side. And there's a sense

of betrayal around that, which is why I always think about the people who are still part of the people who approve of Trump. For them, what they have is like they're keeping the faith in Trump that it's going to come. But they're clear that it hasn't come yet. And we're not getting it right now. Interesting. So we both are in the media world now, but like at heart, we're political hacks who especially focus on messaging and how to go after Trump. The messaging that resonates with me. My bias and my prior is around corruption because I think the corruption bucket gives you the why, right? It's like it explains why Trump is pushing bad tax policies because his donors want them, bad foreign policy, crypto. It can apply to everything. And I think Senator John Offsoff has been messaging this. I think it really effective, interesting way. We'll drop in a clip here. How much do you guys know about Jared Kushner? Ivanka's husband, he's on the Saudi payroll for $2 billion. And now he's leading American diplomacy in the Middle East, apparently while at the

very same time asking princes and shakes across the Arab world to give him billions more. Can you imagine like a normal sitting U.S. ambassador just hitting up Saudi Cran prince, Muhammad bin Salman for billions of dollars. The rules are for us, not for them. And it's not just Jared getting in on the action. A company owned in part by Eric and Don Jr. has been pitching Gulf kingdoms on its drone interceptors during this war.

Never before have we seen so little effort to hide so much corruption. Do you think this is effective messaging what Aesuf is saying? Is this kind of thing like popping in groups? Yeah. And here's the thing about corruption. Okay, so I'm going to put a different frame on it, which is, like I said, people are focused on prices. They're focused on affordability.

But you can make everything an economic issue. Corruption especially can be an economic issue, right? It's about a total story you're telling. And it's saying he is getting rich while you're getting poor. Everything has to have the contrast to it. You know, I remember I'm talking to people. I'm like, him bad, you good. Like, like, let's get like some real basics, right?

Trump bad, you good. Right. Republicans bad, dance good. Like, yeah, that's right. He break, we fix. It's like, get the contrast in there. I am minorly developing an obsession with John Alsuff. Entirely based on tight shirts and good messaging.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is funny because that's not for me exactly, but it is, it's for me. Me either, but he gets. But, man, the calm stuff just has me swooning. Yes. The demeanor, the, the vibe. Yeah, the way he's doing, like, so there's a couple of things he's doing. One is cadence where he's holding an audience in his hand, and that's the stuff you can't teach.

Some of it is that the handsomeness of it all, like the optics of feeling like, oh, oh, you look, you look like a person I could see being president. He's got nice young man energy similar to Obama and some others. Pete Buttigieg has some of that, you know, nice young man energy, which I think works with a lot of the moms. I think, you know, there's always a soccer mom or a, you know, security mom or whatever. Let's just have the nice young man moms. They could be coming out for Democrats this time. But the thing about Asov is that he is a natural contrast storyteller. He is saying, and a lot of people get, they worry, well, look, if I start talking about corruption, people are going to get bored or they don't understand the ins and outs.

He trusts people to understand where he's going with it. And he says, have you heard? Did you know? Did you see this? Yes. I'm here to give you this information if you haven't been getting it in your bubbles. It's so good. It's like it's so simple.

It's like an old Leno bit. It's like, do you hear about this one? You read this one? Yeah. And so I am finding him from an optics cadence and message discipline standpoint to be doing the thing that I've been feeling pretty desperate for politicians to do, which is find a way to rhetorically get your arms around the chaos. And people get distracted. It feels like it's so much. And the voters feel like it's too much.

But he's like, no, I'm going to focus your attention. on these things. And they, they provide the contrast, not just him versus Trump, but the way in which he's approaching issues versus the corruption of Trump. And corruption, Trump's getting richer, you're getting poorer. Like, that's the contrast. Yeah. Maria Bardooma saying, congrats Don and Eric on your drone contract from the Pentagon or whatever. I don't know if you know this, but Hunter Biden had a painting. Yeah, right. Yeah, had a kind of Burisma. I want to talk about how Democrats should chip away at this Trump coalition from 2024 and kind of build their own big, motley anti-Trump coalition. You and your co-hosts on the next level had a spirited debate about Tucker Carlson and his turn from Trump and denunciation of Trump.

Let's listen to Tucker talking about that. You and I and everyone else who supported him. You wrote speeches for him. I campaign for him. I mean, we're implicated in this for sure. Yes. It's not enough to say, well, I've changed my. mind or like, oh, this is bad, I'm out. It's like in very small ways, but in real ways,

you and me and millions of people like us are the reason this is happening right now. Yes. So I do think it's like a moment to wrestle with our own consciences. You know, we'll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be. And I want to say, I'm sorry for misleading people. It was not intentional. That's all I'll say. You and JBL, um, And Tim, you know, I think you guys had sort of different takes on how to respond to Tucker or what you made of Tucker. I'll let you talk about that. But I think I sort of landed in a middle ground listening to you guys like, yes, you know, Tucker is someone I think we should be skeptical of because he's sort of in the media political business. It was knowable and there's evidence that he did know that Trump was a charlatan.

But I do think he was sincerely disappointed and angry that Trump went full neocon and like invaded. Venezuela and now is at war with Iran. A lot of it is undergirded by this anger at the Israeli government and Bibin and Yahoo that can bear anti-Semitism. And we have to watch that. But I'm curious, like, how do you think Democrats use these comments? Because it's him, it's Alex Jones, it's Candice Owens, not like Lib fan favorites usually, but saying things that are potentially helpful to us. Yeah, I mean, this, I think this ends up being like kind of weirdly an academic debate as opposed to a practical one. Because as a practical matter, use the shit up.

out of all of it. Right? Like, amplify the fractures in their coalition. Like, again, just with the framework of him good, they bad, like, you want them to fall apart and you want to hold your side together. And I think that though, people get wrapped up a little bit in whether you have to sort of welcome people into the tent. This is a phrase, or people decide who's in the coalition and who's out of the coalition. Is there a gate somewhere? Well, this has been a big, big conversation lately, right? I mean, I know you guys have also talked about it. Piker, who's a more leftist or Twitch streamer who said some offensive things about Israel or a bunch of other topics. And that's been part of this question too. And like, I don't know. How do you think about that? How do we define whether there are gates? Yeah. I mean, I think, look, there's sort of like, is something somebody says bad objectively, right? So I think I think Tucker Carlson is a malign actor. I think he is a liar. I think the reason that he has decided to take on Trump on this issue isn't because he's got super sincerely held beliefs or maybe.

he does as part of his worldview, but also he was specifically brought into the White House multiple times, I think, tried to talk Trump out of Iran. Trump went against him. Now Tucker's going against him. They're all falling apart. But like, Tucker is not a good person, in my opinion. Like, I think he has been a malign actor on our politics, and I think he does overall more damage. That doesn't mean that Tucker Carlson doesn't have an audience and doesn't play a role in helping to sort of fracture that coalition. And so sometimes amplifying his disdemeanor, agreements, he is a particular kind of messenger for people. But that's like a utility. It's not, hey, let's have them in the coalition. And because there is no. Because they're not part of,

they don't want to be part of the coalition. But also because there is no gatekeeping around the coalition, right? Like there's nobody who decides. I mean, the DNC can decide who speaks at a, who gets a platform. But like, and that was sort of, you know, my argument with Tim around Piker was I felt like Tim and Tim, Tim knows this, so I don't want to like speak out of school because he's not here to defend him up, but I felt like he was kind of downplaying

some of the toxicity of the things that Piker was saying, and more than that, I just cared about on our platform, I didn't want it to sound like we didn't have a clear sense of who this guy is and what he is saying and what he talks about. But like if that guy says, I like John Ossoff because I agree with his views on this, well, I'm like, okay, that's,

and so I just, this idea of, people being gatekeepers on this stuff, but I do think we should all, as moral actors, be gatekeepers about what is right and what is wrong. And so for me, if my lines are liberal versus illiberal, then when people are using violent rhetoric, if they side with terrorists or want to, you know, pump up terrorists or celebrate them in ways, or the Chinese communist government or Putin's annexation of Crimea, you know, or that, you know, not a lot of 11 happening was a, what was it? America deserved 9-11. And people are like, these are out of context. And then I go and watch the context. And I'm like, they're not out of context. You just, you have an

explanation for why you think these things to be true. Okay, well, that's an academic debate or an intellectual debate. And we can have that debate. I'm just telling you, I think those things are wrong. And I think is a moral line. I think that they're not good. But that doesn't mean, but the idea that, like podcasters can't talk to each other, people can't debate ideas. So you're not into a deep platforming. That was very like 2018 through 2020, right? It's like all the scolding of people who went on Joe Rogan

or like scolding of Barstool Sports or thing. Yeah, but people conflate the idea of saying, I think that person's ideas are bad. Or I object to what that person's saying. Like, I don't think stealing stuff from stores is an act of righteous courage against corporations. Like I think that is, I think that's basically you've decided, okay, well, we're just going to opt out of having,

a society and laws. And to me, those are illiberal things. And I'm trying to, part of the reason I objected to Donald Trump was the illiberalism of Donald Trump, the violent rhetoric of Donald Trump. Now, some piker's like a streamer who most of the country doesn't know about. Well, yeah.

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We've worked out a special deal with Haya for their best-selling children's vitamin, receive 50% off your first. order to claim this deal. You must go to Hayahealth.com slash crooked. This deal is not available on their regular website. So go to H-I-Y-A-H-E-A-H-E-A-L-T-H-H-H-H-E-H-H-E-H-H-C-H-E-H-E-H-H-E-H-A-H-H-E-H-E-H-E-H-E-H-E-H-E-H-E-H-E-E-E-L-E-E-E-H-E-M-E-E-E-E-L-E-E-N-E-E-G-E-E-T-E-E-E-W. I've got to say I listen to her pretty closely for the better part of a year. talk about her opposition to the war in Iran, some of the things she said about the war in

Venezuela, I think she's been saying about Gaza. And it just, it strikes me as totally sincere. And now maybe it's all a political game that is setting up a run for the presidency in 2020, whatever, we'll find out. But I was interesting, I was talking to Ilhan Omar a couple weeks ago about this and whether, you know, she had reached out to Marjorie Taylor Green. And it was interesting to hear, like, Ilhan Omar, who's taken more attacks, who's been treated more viciously by MTG and a lot of Republicans, showed such grace and was like, yeah, we should, you know, give her a hug, welcome her into the coalition. I thought it was interesting to hear that from her that she was thinking like that.

Yeah. And I think, look, I think grace is good. I also, and I think part of what's happening, though, is, like, they're finding common ground, right? like they share their feelings about Israel, I think, are like both sincerely held and are maybe closer to each other than Marjorie Taylor Greens are too many in her own party. Right. And that might be true of Ilhan Omar and some of the members of her own party. And so if they can, they find that common ground.

And so, but like that might not be true if they didn't have like an issue that was binding them together that they both care passionately about. And that is, I think that increased skepticism of Israel is totally warranted in this moment. I think that increased skepticism of the American government is quite warranted in this moment. But like, that wouldn't necessarily bind me together with somebody. That wouldn't be like the glue that holds us together. But I think that we have and have had now for a while a fracturing of the old way of politics orienting the parties. And so as these issues shift and there's these huge changes in the

way people are thinking about different things, Israel being one of them, you're going to start to see sort of the strange bedfellows. But politics is always like that, right? Politics finds strange bedfellows. And I think that is fine. Again, this is where is it really welcoming somebody into a coalition because I think there's a difference. And this is when you say, I carry you. Like we're together in this. And this is why the question of do politicians go on like these more really incendiary podcasters, people who are more for shock jock politics.

It's like, okay, you've got two, there's two sides of that coin. There's the side that's trying to reach audience. And so you need to go every, do everything everywhere all at once. You got to be going, finding audience, going into uncomfortable places, having new conversations. You also have the judgment to know that for some people, you will end up owning. some of their baggage and some of the worst things that they said if you're not willing to press them on it or engage in that, right? And so that is the thing with Marjorie Taylor Green is like, I think that she got into Congress and thought maybe it was going to be easier for her to

just love Trump enough to get things done and then that didn't happen. And now maybe she's mad. She didn't have enough influence or whatever. She's looking for influence in other ways. I just don't know that I think I'm not going to be like, boy, I really want to run, hang out with Marjorie Taylor Green. But J.V.L. does. I love to work out with her. Maybe do a little cross-fit.

No, it's just an interesting conversation just sort of like thinking about how Democrats offer grace, whether the amount, number of hoops we make you jump through to kind of like get to be treated as sincere versus Trump who's like, oh, you like Trump? Oh, you called me Hitler back in the day? You're VP now, J.B. Vance.

You know what I mean? Like, oh, Bobby Kennedy, you like Trump now? You hate these vaccines? Fuck it. I hate vaccines, too. come on in. But that's bad, right? It was a brittle coalition, ultimately, right? We ultimately don't think it's good as an objective matter that J.D. Vance specifically, who did say Trump was Hitler, then was like, please, Mr. Trump, let me be all your things,

all for you. I just love you. I hope you're curbles. I will do what you need. Yeah. It's a joke. But so I guess there's the part of me that is, again, every successful political coalition that has ever existed has involved. like especially at really fractious times

has involved lots of strange bedfellows has involved lots of weird coalitions. So I think you want your coalition to be as big as possible. And I don't think we can or like, we can't like police who everybody talks to. Like what you want out of your political leadership is you want somebody who's so good up here.

This is why what I was objecting to is the idea that you have to go on someone's podcast to reach their audience. My point is a bigger point that's much beyond like a particular, particular person. It is John Ossoff is really good. He will make me and Hassan Piker be like, I support that guy, not because he comes to us to like reach our audience. I think we've gotten a little too obsessed with these micro conversations around Joe Rogan of the left or podcasters in general.

Like actually it's about the candidates. It's the candidates. Can they show leadership? And can we find ways to say, I can support that person? And can they appeal to a real. large coalition for a variety of reasons. And you want it to be because they're leaning into the good things, the things that were like, yes, I can find goodness in this person. And a lot of people tag into them, not, hey, I hate the same people you do. Right. Yes, for sure. We want unifying messages, especially on our side. Let me just ask you a couple more things about Iran, because I can imagine like a half dozen ways that this is bad for Trump politically. There's gas prices are up. People are sick of wars in the Middle East generally.

the price tag of the war itself is huge, right? Like $30 billion, $40 billion already has been burned. Then there's the fact that Trump lied and he said he would not go to war in the Middle East. What are you hearing, though, from voters who are expressing frustration about the war, especially the Trump supporters you guys have been talked to who've spoken out? Yeah, I would say the main thing is people thought, and this was always my take on it, was Trump could get away with it if it was a really short period of time. Because if it was kind of an in-and-out, like the first Iran bombing was...

The first 12-day war, it was like... Voters big... By the time it's happened, it's like... You're already buy it with the voters, and they're back to carrying just about costs. The longer this goes on, you've got two things. You've got the impacts here at home, which is really around gas prices, but ultimately is going to be all things getting more expensive, which on top of the tariffs, and this is the thing about something like the Iran War.

Voters know what caused it. voters know that tariffs cause the price increases and they know that the war in Iran is causing gas price increases. When they know where it came from, that's the first bucket of the problem. Then you get to the second bucket of the problem, which is you said no more of this stuff. Like you want to go in and do a smash and grab job like Venezuela or whatever and like I don't have to feel it. Fine. You end up in a prolonged thing where now I'm listening to you be like, hey, Vietnam was 18 years. What are you guys complaining about?

What a crazy comment, by the way. Yeah, like, and then they're like, wait a minute. Because this is where Trump is boxed in on this. And this is going back to Marjorie Taylor Green and Tucker Carlson. The thing about them is that they are creating, there's sort of, there's a fracture in the Republican Party right now. There's the America First Wing, right? Which is, no, we're not going to do wars because we're going to focus on people here at home. Then there's the MAGA establishment.

And that is the Rubio and that is Trump. And so America firsters are like, you are not helping the American people. You are lying. You're not doing what you said. And there is a real part of his coalition that feels betrayed because Trump, and again, this is when I say everything is an economic issue. It's like, we hired you to do one thing, man. Maybe two. Maybe we wanted you to also secure the border.

But like, it was about prices and you're not doing it. And so literally everything you're doing that is not that makes us mad. Yeah. You hear this from Nick Fuentes. You hear this from very vocal people. Nick Fuentes, Tucker Carlson, Megan Kelly, Candace Owens, a lot of people. Again, a lot of flawed messengers there, but they have audience. You mentioned Epstein a minute ago.

So the Epstein Files saga, it was long, but it feels like a lifetime ago at this point. But how much does the mishandling of Epstein kind of linger with voters who were angry with him and how does it manifest? Yeah. So the main thing, again, is it goes to a lot of true. Trump's voters believed that the essential promise of Trump. So I think there's the people who, these are the more casual voters who are just like, Trump's a business guy, he's going to lower prices. But then there's the voters who are like, no, Trump is going to smash the system.

And all of the things you guys have been hiding from us, the deep state, talk a lot about this in the book, the grammar of hidden knowledge, the idea that there are big structural forces keeping information from regular people and meant to keep people down. Trump was going to disrupt all that. Right. When you don't get the Epstein files. And for whatever reason, it's funny, if you go back, Cash Patel promised the Epstein files, Bondi promised the Epstein files.

Trump didn't really. Trump barely. He was like, yeah, we'll look at that. J.D. Vance promised the Epstein files. This was not what Trump wanted to do. It was not. And Trump is mad now that he is at the center of it. But they feel like it disrupts the central promise of his, which is that I was going

to be your guy who was going to show you everything and be transparent. And so they just, and they basically have started to be like, probably, yeah, he's in them. You know, and it's like, we know he's in them now. And so I do think there's the people who have either decided that matters to them because it is disrupted. So much of this is cumulative. It's not just the Epstein files. It's like, well, I didn't get the Epstein files. And I don't get lower prices.

And people are basically like, I guess I get a secure border and, like, bad stuff's happening to trans people. Like, that's the only thing. He's mean to my enemies. He's mean to my enemy. Like, that is the only thing that they feel like is going right for Trump. And the rest of it they're not getting. And people are like, they'll general, they'll kind of reach for the trans stuff as something that they're glad about. But like, that's not driving their votes.

That's not the essential thing pushing most people. Yeah. And the other interesting thing about Epstein that I was, I think you guys talked about this on one of your focus group episodes was being into conspiracy theories used to be a thing that maybe people were embarrassed about. Now they're like, oh, I'm a big conspiracy theory person. It's like they're proud. And I don't know, maybe they all just feel vindicated by the Epstein. thing because like QAnon was just kind of aiming at the wrong target in hindsight, but it's interesting.

What did one guy say? He was like, how does a conspiracy theory go, like, turn into a fact and it's like, just give it time? But what is amazing is it is you used to hear people start their sentences with, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but. And you were always kind of like, okay, well, I'm waiting to hear the conspiracy. But now they're like, I'm a big conspiracy theorist and let me tell you what I think about. Ricka Kirk's, like the body's buried in her basement, you know? I mean, the Candace Owens of it all, the extent to which the conspiracy, I mean, used to be like, go to the grocery store and there'd be like, bat boy, kills seven or whatever stuff we used to see. And America's always had a strain of, you know, there's a second gunman on the grassy knoll and whatever. America, they like it. It's fun. Now, and the way that people own it now shows you how much people are leaning into this as a way of,

politics as entertainment, the characters that they watch. And this is something that the right does in some ways to its benefit and to its detriment, which is that they are creating an ecosystem of like MAGA soap opera stars. Yes, they're all fighting. That's what Will does. Oh, I know. Thank God for Will because I wouldn't know what the hell was going on. Like, who's mad at who and who did what in the ballroom at TPSA event? Anyway, there's a lot of like minor celebrities that, I mean, Will Summers constantly saying like, well, so and so. And I'm like, I'm sorry, who is that? Who? Who? He's like, you know. the girl who threw up in the plant at the Mar-a-Lago,

and I'm like, I don't know this story. And so the conspiracy stuff is, and again, you hear it with people saying, well, I trust the plan, you know. Whatever Trump's doing, I trust the plan. I mean, it's sort of like, it's all the way from deep QAnon stuff that can be pernicious and kind of dangerous

and lead somebody to show up at a pizza shop with a gun, all the way over to, Bravo doesn't have a new series now, so I'm like really into what's happening. with Erica. That's so true. And the other thing, I mean, look, I, having worked in government, I've just found that, like, big government conspiracies are unlikely because when you have a bunch of people read into something, the odds of it remaining a secret are very low. And the government tends to be incompetent at scale.

I was just going to say, like, you think the government can't figure out how to solve a bunch of these problems, but you think they know how to cover up. The moon landing? Yeah, exactly. They fake that stuff. But you can totally see the appeal of it, which is, like, simple. answers to why the world can feel chaotic and scary and why bad things happen to good people, right? Like, oh, it's because of that. This is why, you know, I tend to still be, despite all of the chaos we see, really, like, firmly pro-American voter.

Because in some ways, they are being poisoned every day. And they're being lied to by their government every single day. I think that whether it's Epstein, whether it's the way that Trump has talked about war on Iran, like, we are both being lied to. And the only way we're getting information is on his, like, janky social media feed. And like, that's how things are coming, has privately owned. Like, I have a hard time blaming the American people who for a long time are like, but he's the president. He certainly wouldn't lie about all of this stuff. And I just, and they're trying to parse this new information landscape, which is a nightmare. And there's conflict merchants everywhere telling them who to hate and how to hate and, you know, ginning people off. And so I just, I feel like people, that's why I like the focus groups, they're actually much nicer in person than actually the way when people fight with you on the internet. And they're just like screaming things at you. You know, people in the groups, they're really wrestling with stuff. They're just coming away with some wild conclusions.

but you can see how they get there if you listen to them based on the world that we live in. Totally. And the algorithms that they're getting forced into. Pod Save America is brought to you by Helix. Sleep is so important.

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deal on spring planting essentials. And listeners get an additional 20% off on your first order, but Code Crooked at checkout. That's 20% off at fast-growingtrees.com with code Crooked. terms and conditions may apply. A couple quick issue things. I'm just wondering if you're hearing about. Look, I'm skeptical that a midterm is going to be one on like policy per se, but there are some policy areas that are popping. First of all, there's AI.

So there's some districts, Politico had a good write up on this the other day, where fights over AI data centers are really, they're big deals in certain communities that don't want them there or do want them there. And then there's also just sort of like anger from the left and the right at big tech. at the tech oligarchs. And it's like you, it's the kind of thing where you could listen, I could read you a sentence and it could be Bernie Sanders or it could be Steve Bannon, right? And it's like verbatim the same language.

How much are you hearing about AI, big tech, like in your groups? So tons of AI, not nearly enough about big tech. Interesting. And let me, so I was actually, when I was doing the focus groups specifically on the races for Mikey Scherl, Abigail Spanberger, in both those races. the AI data centers were a huge issue. It came up all the time because people know how much water they're using. Right. They know it that they're raising their energy prices. Again, it's an economic issue for them. They're like, hey, it's getting more expensive for me. And both of them made them

parts of their campaigns like they were addressing it because it's clearly something they're hearing from voters all the time. And this is, but on the other thing, on the tech oligarchs, and this is, I also talk about this in the book. And they need you to do me a favor. And I'm in. Okay. Go tell all your Democratic friends that they keep doing this thing where they're like big corporations, they're the bad guys. I'm like, can you guys just like, okay, I'm not here to talk you out of it. Don't say, could you please just really focus on the big tech oligarch? Sure. Because they are both becoming outrageously wealthy at the expense of the health, both mental and physical, of the American people. They are taking two of our dominant human emotions, fear and anger, and they are algorithmically

for their own profit and to keep us on those things, they are making us want to hate each other. They are the poisoners in many cases, or they're the platforms that deliver the poison and try and keep you there. And like Elon Musk should be an enemy that we name. Yeah, I agree. Peter Thiel should be an enemy that we name.

And you know what? It's not just that these guys walked in to help Trump because they knew he doesn't care about people, he doesn't care about their health and well-being, and he was going to help them be profit. is going to let them raid our data. Like these, we are not talking enough about the tech oligarchs as a specific element of the problem.

You just say big, nameless, faceless corporation, fine, you know what? Most Americans work for corporations. And so the tech oligarchs, though, they are bleeding us. And look, I think there's lots of promise for AI, too, and there's lots of downsides. I'm not just like reflexively against it. But we do need to sort of balance our humanity here. And I think that these guys are not, they, there's a reason Elon Musk talks about immigration all the time. He wants to make sure that we think immigrants are the problem and not the tech oligarchs.

Like they are playing a distraction game. And I do think people need to. So if you could just tell your friends who we're talking about the big thing. Hey, listen up. Well, would you include Mark Zuckerberg? I would. Google, Tim Cook over at Apple. I mean, look, I fundamentally agree with you.

I think that the more specificity in messaging, the better for a whole host of reasons. But in part, it's easier to visualize the enemy when you name it. I'm with you, though. My frustration with the AI industry generally is like we watched all these tech barons create social media and tell us it was going to bring the world together and fix all our problems. And it created a massive number of problems. And then you have a bunch of the same people kind of running it back and now doing the AI thing. And it goes from Elon to Mark Zuckerberg over at Facebook and then Sam Altman, who is, you know, running Y Combinator for a long time and incubating a lot of these companies.

And it just seems like there's no lessons learned. In fact, they care even less about being perceived as good guys. They're just like rapacious capitalists who want it all. Okay. And so as somebody who doesn't necessarily discount people just because of rapacious capitalism, I would say, you know, my favorite description of the board, because people are like, are the capitalist. wing of Antifa. So good. It's good. But I think that for me a lot of it is, and that's why, look, there are, I believe in

innovation and I believe in trying to solve big intractable problems. And I think technology can be a big part of that. What you do want is for it to not live in a place of nihilism. Like you want, these guys are becoming extraordinarily powerful, extraordinarily powerful in our politics in ways. I mean, this is a lot of. And this is. is why I think the specificity of an Elon Musk, like Elon Musk is somebody who I think you can look at and say, this person is doing an enormous amount of damage and doing it on purpose. I don't think every tech oligarch is like that. And I think that you, you know, we should probably be careful about not sort of lumping in everybody together because I think there are people who are like,

actually there are responsible ways to do this. And like, what are the ways that you could regulate this? But those people are becoming fewer and further between. And one of the reasons that so many people capitulated to Trump, including Zuckerberg, including Washington Post, Bezos, Elon, whatever is because they were like, oh, this guy will just do what we want. And I'm not here for the social good. I'm here to get what I want. And look, again, it doesn't all have to be social good, but it does have to be with like, I don't know, some sense of responsibility to the health of the country. And Elon is happy, happy to be a common trillionaire at the expense of us destroying each other. Absolutely. destroying anything in his way. Maha. The RFK Jr., obviously,

he like exploded into the consciousness into popularity by demagoguing vaccines primarily, the COVID pandemic, supercharged, everything that he was doing. But there was a part of Maha that is totally reasonable, right? It's like healthier foods, less processed foods, fewer chemicals in what we're eating, you know, like thinking more about like what we're feeding, kids, like all of that is eminently reasonable. And I have tons of friends, I'm sure you do too, who were like, Maha curious. And we're like, well, what's what, why are you critical of this RFK guy? Like, what is, what's wrong with any of this, right? It becomes a complicated conversation. Um, but it was always obvious that as a political matter and as a political coalition, there was

going to be tension between sincere Maha and Trump's pro corporation deregulation agenda, getting rid of the EPA, things like that. And you saw this explode recently where they gave this sweetheart legal deal to the folks who make Roundup, which is this big weed killer that a lot of Maha folks absolutely hate because I think it's like the cancer. Are you hearing anything about Maha these days? Like, is there anger or opportunity for Democrats? I mean, I heard a lot about Maha going into the election. I mean, the number of, it's not just women, but it was a lot of women who were like,

want red dyes out of food. Like they had these very specific issues that I was like, and I'm a parent, but I haven't been following. I haven't been following this way. But look, there are a bunch of things. I don't know if you feel this way. There are a bunch of things as you become a parent that are happening with kids. You're like, I don't know, it wasn't like this before. Nobody had all these nut allergies.

Right. Or like there wasn't, you didn't know tons of kids who are autistic or like there's like all these things. Things that feel new. Things that feel new, right? And so you're like, where is this coming from? Why is this happening? And I think for parents who of autistic children who feel like they don't know exactly why,

there's a lot of people who are like, okay, well, maybe he's going to get to the bottom of some of this. And actually, I think it's, I'm not sure if I think it's less about what you just outline. It's a little bit more like he's basically a crank who has now, you know, is like, well, we're getting rid of vaccines everywhere. and we're cutting all this medical research. And what I hear about Maha when I do hear about it is like, oh, I was excited for RFK, but like they haven't really gotten anywhere on like X, Y or Z,

whatever the bespoke issue was that they were interested in doing it. And in fact, there was a spate of time when they came out. There was a lot of people who were upset about the idea of like it was Tylenol causing autism, in part because mothers felt like they were being blamed, like the idea that they took Tylenol. Because it's the only thing you can take when you're pregnant for pain relief and to suddenly take that away from women and then say, and by the way, you're at fault if your children has a medical problem because you took that. That is so cruel. And if you don't think that those women haven't figured out how to read 11 peer reviewed studies on these things, like they have. And so I think that there was some real frustration about that.

now it doesn't come up as much, I think in part, because I actually think that the amount of damage being done, especially on the, I don't know if you saw this the other day, but they have found an MMR vaccine that is showing tremendous signs of adding longevity to the lives of people with pancreatic cancer. Extraordinary development. Extraordinary medical breakthrough. You think we've been spending more money on MRNA vaccines these days or not? And so like, and I think what's unfortunate is that unlike Trump's tariffs and unlike the war in Iran, Americans feel acute pain from those things. The cutting of scientific research, the gutting of those things, it's the kind of thing that takes a decade to show up. And it's also in discoveries not made and therefore much harder to figure out. And so you don't hear as much of that as directly, although it's there, but it's much more focused on prices.

but I just know that we are paying. We're paying a lot and it's just we're going to learn about it down the road. Yeah, bills come and do later. I have a couple more things and I'll get the hell out of your office. So we've been talking about the midterms. Gallup just released some new polling this week about approval of Congress. They ask people like, do you approve or disapprove of Congress the institution? 10% approved.

Yeah. 86% disapprove. Congrats, guys. You did it. You did it. The all-time low is 9%. The partisan breakdown. was 20% approval from Republicans, 11% from independents, 3% from Democrats, which is not

surprising because it's a Republican Congress. Now, for contact, Congress's approval rating has been mostly underwater since 1974. The average is 28% approved, 65% disapprove, which is bad, but 10% is terrible. Does that help Democrats that people like hate the institution and we maybe have more challengers? How do you think about that? Yeah, Congress is funny because it's weird to get to such a low approval rating when you're not doing anything. Literally nothing.

And so I'm actually, I'm like, people are mad that they're not doing anything, and especially on the Democratic side. Here's what I do know. I know that Democratic voters are so frustrated with their leadership. I mean, they are mad. They're like, down with the gerontocracy. And if Keme Jeffries and Schumer don't start going toe to toe with Trump and they are not satisfied by the answer of, we're shut out from political power. they're like, I don't know, you're up there. Can you go do something?

Like, they want to see reflected back to them. This, I keep kind of rejecting this fight that we have on Twitter about. Does the Democratic Party need to be more moderate? Does it need to be more progressive? Like, all the voters really want is for it to be more aggressive. They could sort of take or leave which side of the ideological spectrum you're on, as long as you are going in there and reflecting the anger and upsetness that they feel at what Trump is doing. And when you're not doing that, they are mad, which is.

I think where you're getting sort of those Democratic numbers. And I think, look, so much of this is just, you gave me a body of the government and I think things are going terribly in the country. And so I want to tell you that I think they're doing a terrible job because the country feels bad. So I don't know that I, interest in terms of how it affects the midterms, people blame the party in power. I mean, this is the only reason that I think Democrats can't pick up the kind of seats that they picked up in 2018 is because there's not enough seats available. Like, there's just because it's so close right now, they can't pick up 40 seats, but like they can certainly take control.

To win 40 seats, we'd have to be winning, like, Trump plus 12 districts. Yeah. And I think, like, look, you can get a wave where you are picking up Trump plus seven districts, Trump plus eight districts. I mean, that wave would have to be so big. But you know what? I'm not discounting it in part because, look, Democrats are extraordinarily motivated. and Republicans are sucking wind.

Yes. And that's where the Tucker stuff, I think, helps. That enthusiasm, yes. Depressing that MAGA base. Like, I love that. Well, one counterpoint to this. The New York Times reported that Republicans have a $600 million advantage in terms of fundraising of, like, Republican groups over Democratic ones.

How much does that worry you? Because I think it's easy after 2024 to be like, we pissed away a billion dollars, didn't move the vote a goddamn point. Who cares anymore? But in midterms, it's a bit of a different story often. So, okay. it doesn't worry me that much, uh, in the sense that the voters are given to the candidates. The like, the Democratic candidates like Talarico and Cooper and, uh, Mary Potola, like they're putting

up huge numbers, like way over their Republican counterparts. And so there's an asymmetry that is on either side where the actual Democratic candidates are outraising their Republican counterparts, whereas the Republican infrastructure and the committees are outraising their Democratic counterparts. And the PACs. And the PACs, right? So there's like tons of the big money coming in, whereas I think a lot of the big money on the left is, yeah, feeling scared.

And scared. People don't want to put their names on FEC reports because Trump will go after them. Like that is a real thing that is happening, which, and that's why, look, I don't know how much money is going into C4s or stuff, but like that money might be evening out somewhere, but there is a lot of chilling. of civic participation via donation dollars because people are afraid of showing up

on Donald Trump's radar. Yeah, and the DOJ is... So it worries me from that... It worries me from that point of view. And then it worries me, I think, from... I don't want to just, like, you know, crap on Ken Martin, but I do think that the DNC could stand to...

Up its game a little bit. Yeah, I've actually... We've been in touch with Ken's team. We're hoping to get him on the show sometime next week to talk about this and the fundraising and some of the concerns because it is a challenging atmosphere. I'm sure it is an absolute slog for him to try to rebuild that place and clear the decks after 2024.

But yeah, I'm anxious like you are. And also, but you're right. The candidate fundraising is better on the Democratic side. And that's also important because you get more efficient ad rates as a elected official than you do as a party committee or a PAC. So that's something. Yeah. And for people who are like, oh, get money out of politics and stuff. I totally.

We're there. I hear you. But as right. But as right now, right, when you have only so many metrics for things like money, especially to candidates, is a good metric for enthusiasm. And so the idea that these Democratic candidates are outperforming on the money side is just a good metric for, I think, enthusiasm, especially in a midterm and not a presidential. Yes, totally agree.

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and a vital sanctuary for our environment for generations to come. Last question. Let's just end with some maybe irresponsible, definitely premature speculation about 2028. Yeah, yeah. On the Republican side, you have a great piece in The Atlantic this week about how groups are the focus groups, Trump voters, are talking more and more about Marco Rubio, the archivist. I think that's his only job. And less about J.D. Vance. Yeah.

Tell us more about that. So this is, Marco Rubio is maybe the first candidate I've seen where like a meme seems to be springing to life. Yes. And so the meme of Marco Rubio in the chair like this with the new job, whatever the job is, like is he the new coach of the pamph? Like every garbage job that you can get, it actually, it is, it is a funny joke, but what it is showing people or I think what people are taking away from that is like, there is one person in this administration who's not a total clown. Right. Like, and so you got to give him all the jobs because he's the only actual serious person. And then that's one piece of it.

And then another piece is they're kind of looking around and it's like, shady Vance, who people still will say is the heir apparent. and like, okay, yeah, you know, like JD on the magazine. Like, I don't really feel it. He is, for me, in focus groups now having done this long enough to see different candidates rise and fall, he's got total Ron DeSantis vibes from Republican voters. Your lips to God's ears. The longer they look at it and the more they're like, eh. And it's like they want to like him or they want to do it.

But like, he's not lighten anybody up. And he's getting himself in a sour spot with those two groups I'm talking about. that he thought he was going to be able to stand over both of them and bring them together. And instead, he's sitting in the bad spot where Tucker's got this part marshal over here. And Rubio is starting to marshal the MAGA establishment over here. And so that is just interesting to me. It also doesn't help that Donald Trump walks around his, you know, the White House being like, who you like better, J.D. or Marco.

Crazy. Every donor at Margulago is getting asked who he likes better, Rubio or Vance. Also, like, look, Rubio, I think gets to get a lot of credit from the base on Venezuela. because he's seen his owning that one. Yeah. When it comes to Iran, they started a war and Marco Rubio has disappeared. He went to the sticks. He went to the UFC fight.

Yeah. Well, J.D. Vance went over and didn't get anywhere. J.D. Vance, like, sits on the tarmac for 21 hours in Pakistan. It gets humiliated, flies home. J.D. And Marco goes to a UFC fight. But also, Marco Rubio, like, did one press conference where he went up on Capitol Hill and he was like, oh, yeah, we invaded because the Israel, the lobby made us do it.

And then he walked away and created this huge disaster for everyone involved. And that has not said a word since. He's just divorced himself from this problem. Probably smart politically. Probably smart politically. I think, and this is, so look, I think that those two are an interesting contrast to me. And I just, I think for me, one of the reasons I'm so interested in hearing the strange new respect from Trump voters and the focus groups is I think I had long thought that people from the pre-Trump era, Republicans from the pre-Trump era, were a non-starter for voters. But what's interesting is that especially for younger voters,

they don't even know Marco Rubio. The Marco Rubio that I was like, oh, this young man, I like him. We'll see what he does. The guy who drank the water. Yeah, that's why. But you know, he was like, he was going to be the new person. He led on immigration reform, whatever. Time magazine, right?

It was like the future. Nobody thinks that. These guys don't know that guy. They just know the guy who's been in the tank for Trump. And so they're sort of meeting him for the first time, people who are like 30 and below. And then for a lot of the other people, people, there's, he's been enough of a lapdog for Trump and transformed himself enough

that like, I obviously would never vote for him in a million years ever. But a lot of Trump voters might. Like they wouldn't Nikki Haley, but he's transformed himself enough. So that was interesting to me. Sucks. I will just say on the Republican side, I think this is another reason I don't give Tucker sort of the genuine thing. I think, I do think Tucker's thinking about running for president. I think, look, I was talking to someone yesterday who sort of in that world.

I asked this question, he thought, no, because it's like a lot of work. And also, you have to have a genuine thick skin. And Tucker doesn't seem like he's someone is very pugilistic. But, look, I, yeah, I've long wondered if he could jump into a primary and do very well on the Republican side. He would immediately have a base of support. Yeah, it would be interesting. Last question. On the Democratic side, does anyone make in your heart flutter?

Yeah, so I already mentioned Aossoff and his communication style. I tend to be, I, I, I, I'm from Pennsylvania. People get mad. They're like, no one will ever nominate Josh Shapiro. But like, if you follow Pennsylvania politics closely, he is beloved in Pennsylvania. There's just not that many Democrats who have, you know, a 60% approval rating. He's going to beat his Democratic challenger. People are like, I'm sorry, his Republican challenger.

Everybody's like, I'm sorry. Yeah, who's he even running against? I don't even know. It's a woman. I'm forgetting her name right now. But, like, it's a non-starter. It's not going anywhere. No, he's going to destroy her.

Again, because he crushed Mastriano, too. That's right. And she's a, well, there's also, part of the reason is there's like a, now there's like a weird Mastriano write-in thing that people are doing. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Anyway, but Pete, John Ossoff, Shapiro, because he's successful in the biggest swing state. Like, all three of them are kind of in my zone for people. But, like, here's the main reason.

And actually, I'm not going to put Josh Shapiro in this. He's kind of like a personal I like him, but I recognize that the Democratic base seems to have some particular feelings about him. It's a matter of how salient Gaza is probably, right? I mean, is that we're getting it. One of my pet theory, yes, well, that is what people don't like about him. Stacey Garrity, by the way. Stacey Garrity, good job. Way to effort that.

Thank you. I do have a pet theory that the way that Democrats deal with what is becoming like a, I'm not even sure it's as much of a wedge issue because Democratic voters now. are pretty, I mean, I can't tell you how many focus groups I do with Dems in these Dem primaries. They all know who APEC is giving money to. It's not just sort of track APEC. Like, people are locked in on this issue. They are mad at Israel. It is shifting quickly among Democratic and independent voters.

And so I do think, I think that one of the ways that Democrats could handle this is by having a Jewish candidate who is deeply critical of Israel. J.B. Pritzker fits that bill. Asaf fits that bill. And Shapiro fits that bill. Ram erasure? Ram a manual erasure? I don't mean to erase rom. I think ROM's going to inject some interesting energy into the primary.

You have a lot of energy. I do not think that's where voters are going. To insider. Yeah, and I just think people are looking for a brand new, like not brand, brand new, but like someplace we haven't trod before, the not a long history. And so, but the thing is, I'll just say, Pete does make my heart go pitter-patter. because Pete does the thing that I'm desperate for Democrats to do, which is, like, it's not just going on podcasts. And I saw you guys reacting to his thing. And I did not think you were nice enough to him.

Dude, the Pete Hive, boy, if you are like, all I said about Pete was I think he's the best, one of the best communicators out there. He's unbelievably good. You could set him anywhere. Fox News, conservatives, all in podcasts, anyone. He'll dominate. CNBC crush Joe Kernan. But all I said was I thought that is actually kind of a different skill than being able to. to go into every community and get votes in every community. Because as we've seen, his numbers with black voters, for example, are like very, very low and he really needs to work on that. That was it was an observation about data. Pete people take that shit so personally. Yeah.

Well, I think part of it is that Pete, part of the reason that we take it personally is Pete inspires love and people. Like, they really do. And he does that kind of for me where I think that he is, this idea of like, I'm going to go to Oklahoma and I'm going to talk to people there. I think that's great, by the way. And the thing is, is that while we tend to get in these Twitter arguments about, do you go on this podcast or this streamer, he's like, oh, I'm going to actually go sit with people because that's actually the real thing. The rest of this stuff over here is a side show to the real voters. And so I'm, because I'm obsessed with listening to voters, I'm obsessed with candidates who care about engaging with voters. This was like young Joe Biden with the arm around people and like being around Trump with his stupid rallies, but like creating good dance party.

vibes. Like the Democrat who is going to win, who I do think is going to be somebody who manages to not tip over into saccharin or treacle, but does have a very clear sense of vision, hope, future, how we bring, come back together as a country. I do think people are hungry for that. I think he has it. And so, and Aosop has just been like, as a, I think messaging matters more now than ever. And I think he is doing it. And every time I see him give a speech, I kind of like do a lap in the room with my head. Yes. Yeah. It's hard not to just turn into a cheerleader for that. If he wins that Georgia Senate election, which, you know, knock on wood, he will be vaulted into, you know, top, top canvas. And I'll be there, vaulting. I'll be pushing him. Sarah Longwell, thank you so

much for doing this. Fascinating to talk to you. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks, Tommy. Good to see you. I too. I'll put gas in your car next time. If you want to listen to Pod Save America, ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Cricket. Pod Save America is a Cricket Media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin.

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